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WillyEckers
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:42 am

767333ER wrote:

Seriously the only quotations we have from the Boeing employees regarding the FAA are the ones where I believe it was Forkner saying he “Jedi mind-tricked” them. That’s it. No monkeys, no bananas, and no anything else.


Not quite. They did say that the response by them to technical presentations was like "dogs watching TV". This is the avatar for the Avweb article on the MAX.

https://www.avweb.com/insider/have-we-r ... t-max-max/

Image
 
Ertro
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:30 am

WillyEckers wrote:
767333ER wrote:
Seriously the only quotations we have from the Boeing employees regarding the FAA are the ones where I believe it was Forkner saying he “Jedi mind-tricked” them. That’s it. No monkeys, no bananas, and no anything else.

Not quite. They did say that the response by them to technical presentations was like "dogs watching TV"./


To me this "dog watching TV" quote sounds like another instance of "jedi mind tricking". Some newspapers seem to interpret every insult in literal sense to be an insult towards those who are insulted but this is not always the correct interpretation and especially not in this case.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/busi ... sages.html wrote:
In an exchange from 2015, a Boeing employee said that a presentation the company gave to the F.A.A. was so complicated that, for the agency officials and even himself, “it was like dogs watching TV.”


This quote sounds like Boeing made the presentation purposefully difficult to understand. It is very easy to make presentations too difficult. I have given several presentations and heard many others and if the whole audience does not understand the presentation it has in my circles always been interpreted so that it is the person giving the presentation is incompetent and never the fault of the audience. No matter what is the level of expertice in the audience a competent presenter should always be able to adjust the presentation into a level which allows it to be understood by the audience. Even if the audience is 5 year old kids.

If a presenter notices that the audience is looking at it like "dogs watching TV" the presenter should always take a step back and adjust the presentation accordingly. Unless the whole purpose of the exercise is trying to embarrass FAA and prevent them from asking questions.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:51 am

It is a common tactic when dealing with regulators, make them feel like they are the only ones in the room not understanding a very simple subject. Preferably shortly before a break with snacks.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:06 am

767333ER wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
morrisond wrote:
According to the FAA - MAX could fly before Mid-Year.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/24/boeing- ... -says.html


I saw this and was about to post it. I have trouble believing the FAA said that but there it is. I bet I fly on the 737-8 in the future. I am not going to tell my wife that they will rename the MAX, assuming they will.

Well it doesn’t say much. Very vague, very imprecise, and all for a very good reason. They use words like could and around and before mid-year so that we can’t exactly pinpoint what the are referring to and discredit them. I actually use this trick myself a lot; it does work. They also said they could have it flying by the end of 2019 and I’m pretty sure the FAA said at one point by February or March. It’s possible I guess, but wouldn’t Boeing have said so themselves if it were to be sooner?


Yes it is vague - but the FAA is no longer silent which puts a big hole in the narrative around here that the MAX will never RTS.

It appears there is a path forward again - and no it does not appear they are going to have to or will need to redesign it further at this point and make it FBW or partial FBW.
 
kyu
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:57 pm

What was wrong about the posting pointing out that the CNBC article made no mention of EASA? Why did you delete it?
This is censorship. Shame on you!
 
WillyEckers
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:48 pm

Ertro wrote:
To me this "dog watching TV" quote sounds like another instance of "jedi mind tricking". Some newspapers seem to interpret every insult in literal sense to be an insult towards those who are insulted but this is not always the correct interpretation and especially not in this case.


Well, to be someone signing off something that they didn't understand may not be an insult but it's not really a compliment either.
 
gobears19
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:57 pm

This has probably been covered earlier, but Boeing has said a software patch is the cure for what brought down those airliners, but wasn’t relying on a single AOA sensor a contributing factor as well?

What are they going to do about that?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:11 pm

767333ER wrote:
Well it doesn’t say much. Very vague, very imprecise, and all for a very good reason. They use words like could and around and before mid-year so that we can’t exactly pinpoint what the are referring to and discredit them. I actually use this trick myself a lot; it does work. They also said they could have it flying by the end of 2019 and I’m pretty sure the FAA said at one point by February or March. It’s possible I guess, but wouldn’t Boeing have said so themselves if it were to be sooner?

Note how such comments ended for the past head of Boeing, let's see how the new head of the FAA is treated for doing the same.
If as you say it is a trick - not Jedi Mind Trick like Boeing - I assume he was trying to fool Wall Street since the airlines had already made adjustments to their schedule, and the effect on the street was immediate, Boeing stock up.

So who exerted pressure on the Head of the FAA to make such statements, that is the primary question.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:11 pm

morrisond wrote:
Yes it is vague - but the FAA is no longer silent which puts a big hole in the narrative around here that the MAX will never RTS.


You're being overly sensitive. There is/was no "narrative" that MAX would never RTS. A few members expressed the extreme opinion that it wouldn't, but that's hardly representative of the overall view.

We see extreme views and opinions at both ends of the spectrum.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:32 pm

scbriml wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Yes it is vague - but the FAA is no longer silent which puts a big hole in the narrative around here that the MAX will never RTS.


You're being overly sensitive. There is/was no "narrative" that MAX would never RTS. A few members expressed the extreme opinion that it wouldn't, but that's hardly representative of the overall view.

We see extreme views and opinions at both ends of the spectrum.


Yes you are right - I should have said "one of the narratives".
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:32 pm

WillyEckers wrote:
Not quite. They did say that the response by them to technical presentations was like "dogs watching TV". This is the avatar for the Avweb article on the MAX.


To be fair they were equal opportunity name callers.

Regarding MAX project team: Designed by clowns and supervised by monkeys
FAA and themselves(team working eng SIM and training program): Like Dogs watching TV (when other Boeing team gave presentation)
Other regulators: DGCA Indonesia "stupid" for asking to include more training, DGCA India "stupider" for insisting to include more training, Both CAA were shamed into submission.
SIM manufacturer: Wouldn't fly MAX trained on these SIMs.
All posts are just opinions.
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:57 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
WillyEckers wrote:
Not quite. They did say that the response by them to technical presentations was like "dogs watching TV". This is the avatar for the Avweb article on the MAX.


To be fair they were equal opportunity name callers.

Regarding MAX project team: Designed by clowns and supervised by monkeys
FAA and themselves(team working eng SIM and training program): Like Dogs watching TV (when other Boeing team gave presentation)
Other regulators: DGCA Indonesia "stupid" for asking to include more training, DGCA India "stupider" for insisting to include more training, Both CAA were shamed into submission.
SIM manufacturer: Wouldn't fly MAX trained on these SIMs.

Frankly speaking if you sift through 5 years worth of communication between few hundred people, you will inevitably find some venting, frustration, harsh comments and what not. Ask moderators of a.net if you don't believe.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:01 pm

kalvado wrote:
Frankly speaking if you sift through 5 years worth of communication between few hundred people, you will inevitably find some venting, frustration, harsh comments and what not. Ask moderators of a.net if you don't believe.

So you are now saying that the release and content of the e-mails is much ado about nothing?
Hmmmm......where was this mind set weeks ago when the whole world was up in arms about Boeing jets being made by clowns and monkeys?
Is this showing that sometimes too much openness and transparency needs some selective editing when released into the public domain?
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:56 pm

par13del wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Frankly speaking if you sift through 5 years worth of communication between few hundred people, you will inevitably find some venting, frustration, harsh comments and what not. Ask moderators of a.net if you don't believe.

So you are now saying that the release and content of the e-mails is much ado about nothing?
Hmmmm......where was this mind set weeks ago when the whole world was up in arms about Boeing jets being made by clowns and monkeys?
Is this showing that sometimes too much openness and transparency needs some selective editing when released into the public domain?

More like noise with little, if any, real information. I will believe in openness if stall characteristics are fully releasd
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:11 pm

par13del wrote:
So you are now saying that the release and content of the e-mails is much ado about nothing?
Hmmmm......where was this mind set weeks ago when the whole world was up in arms about Boeing jets being made by clowns and monkeys?
Is this showing that sometimes too much openness and transparency needs some selective editing when released into the public domain?


As Revelation pointed out in the past most of these communication are from one department. Nothing from engineering. One reason could be whatever Boeing did, intellectual property need to be protected from corporate/sovereign espionage and Boeing has every right to protect those communications. DOJ and/or DOT not going force Boeing to release those details.

By leaving those comments, name calling became the main story, attention moved away from design issue temporarily. So it is much ado about nothing.

If SIM is crashing and plane in SIM is crashing while you are trying to write manuals and get FAA approvals, those phrases are light comedy.
All posts are just opinions.
 
art
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:18 pm

morrisond wrote:
According to the FAA - MAX could fly before Mid-Year.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/24/boeing- ... -says.html


OK, he said authority to RTS could be given before mid-year. He did not say would or should be given before mid-year, so while the statement is not discouraging, I don't think it's time to crack open the bubbly quite yet. IMO time to celebrate will be when he gives a window in which he thinks the MAX should receive authorisation to fly again (if FAA does that sort of thing).
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:19 pm

art wrote:
morrisond wrote:
According to the FAA - MAX could fly before Mid-Year.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/24/boeing- ... -says.html


OK, he said authority to RTS could be given before mid-year. He did not say would or should be given before mid-year, so while the statement is not discouraging, I don't think it's time to crack open the bubbly quite yet. IMO time to celebrate will be when he gives a window in which he thinks the MAX should receive authorisation to fly again (if FAA does that sort of thing).


No - not time to crack the Champagne but the cancellation party can be put off for a bit at least.
 
akb88
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:11 pm

Icelandair are not expecting them back until end of September
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:28 pm

akb88 wrote:
Icelandair are not expecting them back until end of September

Think of all the fish that will be saved!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
gobears19
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:40 pm

Are they doing anything about the AOA sensors or just MCAS software?
 
Jetty
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:48 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
par13del wrote:
So you are now saying that the release and content of the e-mails is much ado about nothing?
Hmmmm......where was this mind set weeks ago when the whole world was up in arms about Boeing jets being made by clowns and monkeys?
Is this showing that sometimes too much openness and transparency needs some selective editing when released into the public domain?


As Revelation pointed out in the past most of these communication are from one department. Nothing from engineering. One reason could be whatever Boeing did, intellectual property need to be protected from corporate/sovereign espionage and Boeing has every right to protect those communications. DOJ and/or DOT not going force Boeing to release those details.

DOJ and DOT had nothing to do with the released messages: they were requested by Congres. Congres requested messages specifically about the certification process, hence nothing from engineering.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:18 pm

gobears19 wrote:
This has probably been covered earlier, but Boeing has said a software patch is the cure for what brought down those airliners, but wasn’t relying on a single AOA sensor a contributing factor as well?

What are they going to do about that?


MCAS used one sensor at a time. It changed from left to right (or the opposite) every flight. The new software will instead use both sensors all the time, and MCAS won't activate if the two sensors aren't in agreement about the angle of attack : if there is a disagreement, it means one sensor is broken, the system can't know which one, so will disable itself.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
art
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:08 am

Sorry to ask if already done. When (I presume) RTS is authorised, will grounded in-service aircraft receive upgrade attention before built but undelivered frames or will Boeing seek to clear the undelivered grounded frames first so rhey can be delivered and $$$ start comng Boeing's way? I ask because I don't expect Boeing to 'do the decent thing' and prioritise airlines with delivered aircraft sitting idle while the aircraft they replaced are no longer available.
 
oschkosch
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:03 am

art wrote:
Sorry to ask if already done. When (I presume) RTS is authorised, will grounded in-service aircraft receive upgrade attention before built but undelivered frames or will Boeing seek to clear the undelivered grounded frames first so rhey can be delivered and $$$ start comng Boeing's way? I ask because I don't expect Boeing to 'do the decent thing' and prioritise airlines with delivered aircraft sitting idle while the aircraft they replaced are no longer available.



Good question, I believe it has not been answered yet?
:stirthepot: :airplane: "This airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys" :airplane: :stirthepot:
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 8:36 am

oschkosch wrote:
art wrote:
Sorry to ask if already done. When (I presume) RTS is authorised, will grounded in-service aircraft receive upgrade attention before built but undelivered frames or will Boeing seek to clear the undelivered grounded frames first so rhey can be delivered and $$$ start comng Boeing's way? I ask because I don't expect Boeing to 'do the decent thing' and prioritise airlines with delivered aircraft sitting idle while the aircraft they replaced are no longer available.



Good question, I believe it has not been answered yet?


Boeing originally said that frames coming off the production line would have priority over stored, undelivered frames. However, when the production halt was announced they said that the stored frames would be handled first. I don't think they've said anything about how they'll handle frames that were already delivered prior to the grounding.

ps Thinking about it, saying 'stored frames' will be handled firt implies it will include delivered frames.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
WillyEckers
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 9:54 am

kalvado wrote:
More like noise with little, if any, real information. I will believe in openness if stall characteristics are fully releasd


I disagree. There were some surprising things in there.

Crashing the simulator a few times before getting to grips with the handling:
[7:59 AM]:
it's tough huh?
I crashed big time my first few times, that's what scares me about showing any of this to them
you can get decent at it after 3-4 tries, but the first few are ugly

Modifying the simulator?
[8:00 AM]:
they are going to tweak the elevator effectiveness a little. Yeah we talked about using a reasonable cg to make it doable
without dlc. We want them to succeed without DLC
it is easy to start chasing pitch and power and get in a PIO elevator effectiveness

Along with other stuff in the same conversation. Obviously, we don't have any context, but it looks like more than just general bitching...
 
uta999
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:15 am

Aesma wrote:
gobears19 wrote:
This has probably been covered earlier, but Boeing has said a software patch is the cure for what brought down those airliners, but wasn’t relying on a single AOA sensor a contributing factor as well?

What are they going to do about that?


MCAS used one sensor at a time. It changed from left to right (or the opposite) every flight. The new software will instead use both sensors all the time, and MCAS won't activate if the two sensors aren't in agreement about the angle of attack : if there is a disagreement, it means one sensor is broken, the system can't know which one, so will disable itself.


So in that event, the MAX will be flying without MCAS at all. So how can that be okay, but deleting MCAS altogether not? It makes no sense.
Your computer just got better
 
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journeyperson
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:53 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51253066

This BBC article illustrates the damage done to Boeing's image. The 777x first flight was marketed by Boeing as a demonstration of what they can do, but the 737 MAX casts a shadow over the reporting, with little information about the 777x (no mention of passenger capacity) but links to the MAX crashes..
 
Jetty
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:00 am

uta999 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
gobears19 wrote:
This has probably been covered earlier, but Boeing has said a software patch is the cure for what brought down those airliners, but wasn’t relying on a single AOA sensor a contributing factor as well?

What are they going to do about that?


MCAS used one sensor at a time. It changed from left to right (or the opposite) every flight. The new software will instead use both sensors all the time, and MCAS won't activate if the two sensors aren't in agreement about the angle of attack : if there is a disagreement, it means one sensor is broken, the system can't know which one, so will disable itself.


So in that event, the MAX will be flying without MCAS at all. So how can that be okay, but deleting MCAS altogether not? It makes no sense.

Nobody is claiming aviation can be 100% safe, but fatal accidents should be very very rare. That’s why risk assessments are about odds.

A situation that happens rarely and causes a slight risk (i.e. stalling without MCAS due to faulty AOA sensor) might be acceptable while a slight risk that is constantly present (i.e. no MCAS at all) is not.

There’s a whole methodology behind these risk assessments that can be complex, but the basic logic should be easy to understand.
 
asdf
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:08 pm

Jetty wrote:
uta999 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

MCAS used one sensor at a time. It changed from left to right (or the opposite) every flight. The new software will instead use both sensors all the time, and MCAS won't activate if the two sensors aren't in agreement about the angle of attack : if there is a disagreement, it means one sensor is broken, the system can't know which one, so will disable itself.


So in that event, the MAX will be flying without MCAS at all. So how can that be okay, but deleting MCAS altogether not? It makes no sense.

Nobody is claiming aviation can be 100% safe, but fatal accidents should be very very rare. That’s why risk assessments are about odds.

A situation that happens rarely and causes a slight risk (i.e. stalling without MCAS due to faulty AOA sensor) might be acceptable while a slight risk that is constantly present (i.e. no MCAS at all) is not.

There’s a whole methodology behind these risk assessments that can be complex, but the basic logic should be easy to understand.


the problem is not MCAS nor is it methodolgy of risk management
the problem is the risk to fly on a plane with flawed aerodynamical atitude
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:50 pm

kalvado wrote:
par13del wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Frankly speaking if you sift through 5 years worth of communication between few hundred people, you will inevitably find some venting, frustration, harsh comments and what not. Ask moderators of a.net if you don't believe.

So you are now saying that the release and content of the e-mails is much ado about nothing?
Hmmmm......where was this mind set weeks ago when the whole world was up in arms about Boeing jets being made by clowns and monkeys?
Is this showing that sometimes too much openness and transparency needs some selective editing when released into the public domain?

More like noise with little, if any, real information. I will believe in openness if stall characteristics are fully releasd

Same for me. But it's still a well keep secret, so, as unbelievable as it could be, I am now preparing to see a RTS without the natural characteristics know even to the pilots. I am wondering how the various pilots association will accept that without making a scandal.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
kalvado
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:00 pm

WillyEckers wrote:
kalvado wrote:
More like noise with little, if any, real information. I will believe in openness if stall characteristics are fully releasd


I disagree. There were some surprising things in there.

Crashing the simulator a few times before getting to grips with the handling:
[7:59 AM]:
it's tough huh?
I crashed big time my first few times, that's what scares me about showing any of this to them
you can get decent at it after 3-4 tries, but the first few are ugly

Modifying the simulator?
[8:00 AM]:
they are going to tweak the elevator effectiveness a little. Yeah we talked about using a reasonable cg to make it doable
without dlc. We want them to succeed without DLC
it is easy to start chasing pitch and power and get in a PIO elevator effectiveness

Along with other stuff in the same conversation. Obviously, we don't have any context, but it looks like more than just general bitching...

Can be anything from really bad development problems to normal development issues being worked out to some isolated hardware issue of the sim. Impossible to tell without context.
If anything, brown envelope comment looked very weird, but that is again a separate story.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:03 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
Same for me. But it's still a well keep secret, so, as unbelievable as it could be, I am now preparing to see a RTS without the natural characteristics know even to the pilots. I am wondering how the various pilots association will accept that without making a scandal.

Today everyone wants pilots to be system administrators, the computer, design of the a/c and the human interface are to be the key to having safe flight, that chorus has gotten so strong that even Boeing's new CEO is talking about an adjustment in the old mantra "pilots always having the last say".
Since Airbus has been leading in narrow body sales for a number of years and holds over 50% market share, I would say that the number of pilot associations would be minimal and centered around Boeing since fully FBW a/c reduce and even eliminate the need for pilots to know the natural feel of the a/c.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:12 pm

kalvado wrote:
Can be anything from really bad development problems to normal development issues being worked out to some isolated hardware issue of the sim. Impossible to tell without context.
If anything, brown envelope comment looked very weird, but that is again a separate story.

Additional question, do we have a good timeline on this development item, was it while the a/c was also in flight test and they were trying to get the simulator flight model in sync?
Numerous test flights were done in the actual a/c before EIS and none of the mass of e-mails or whistle blowers indicate anything about danger during test flights or almost loosing a/c, so I am inclined to believe the exchanges took place when the sim was being bought up to speed. If the timeline is BEFORE test flights they must have gotten the issues resolved because other that the need to increase MCAS authority, no talk of close calls.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:31 pm

art wrote:
Sorry to ask if already done. When (I presume) RTS is authorised, will grounded in-service aircraft receive upgrade attention before built but undelivered frames or will Boeing seek to clear the undelivered grounded frames first so rhey can be delivered and $$$ start comng Boeing's way? I ask because I don't expect Boeing to 'do the decent thing' and prioritise airlines with delivered aircraft sitting idle while the aircraft they replaced are no longer available.


Why wouldn't you expect them to do "the decent thing". Is it not in their self interest so they can stop paying grounding compensation? I would have to guess that delayed delivery payments are less than grounded compensation payments.

Yes they made a major mistake in design - but they have been taking care of their customers, employees and suppliers since - how is that not doing the decent thing?

They have 12,000 employees with not a lot to do before return to 40 plus per month of production. I'm sure that there will be at least a few hundred with the skills to mod customer frames/prepare them for flight on the ground (or take them back to a Boeing center for the work) who wouldn't mind going on a Road trip to where they are stored.

It should not take that long (months, not years) - especially if it is just a software load - plus you will have the customers mechanics/specialists to help who can do routine things like fluids and brakes etcetera to get them ready to fly. Many of the customers tech staff will be used to this process as they routinely store/pull out of storage frames sometimes on a seasonal basis.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:34 pm

asdf wrote:
Jetty wrote:
uta999 wrote:

So in that event, the MAX will be flying without MCAS at all. So how can that be okay, but deleting MCAS altogether not? It makes no sense.

Nobody is claiming aviation can be 100% safe, but fatal accidents should be very very rare. That’s why risk assessments are about odds.

A situation that happens rarely and causes a slight risk (i.e. stalling without MCAS due to faulty AOA sensor) might be acceptable while a slight risk that is constantly present (i.e. no MCAS at all) is not.

There’s a whole methodology behind these risk assessments that can be complex, but the basic logic should be easy to understand.


the problem is not MCAS nor is it methodolgy of risk management
the problem is the risk to fly on a plane with flawed aerodynamical atitude


So has EASA done its test flights yet? If yes was that before Scott Dickson talked last week?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:41 pm

morrisond wrote:
art wrote:
Sorry to ask if already done. When (I presume) RTS is authorised, will grounded in-service aircraft receive upgrade attention before built but undelivered frames or will Boeing seek to clear the undelivered grounded frames first so rhey can be delivered and $$$ start comng Boeing's way? I ask because I don't expect Boeing to 'do the decent thing' and prioritise airlines with delivered aircraft sitting idle while the aircraft they replaced are no longer available.


Why wouldn't you expect them to do "the decent thing". Is it not in their self interest so they can stop paying grounding compensation? I would have to guess that delayed delivery payments are less than grounded compensation payments.

Yes they made a major mistake in design - but they have been taking care of their customers, employees and suppliers since - how is that not doing the decent thing?

They have 12,000 employees with not a lot to do before return to 40 plus per month of production. I'm sure that there will be at least a few hundred with the skills to mod customer frames/prepare them for flight on the ground (or take them back to a Boeing center for the work) who wouldn't mind going on a Road trip to where they are stored.

It should not take that long (months, not years) - especially if it is just a software load - plus you will have the customers mechanics/specialists to help who can do routine things like fluids and brakes etcetera to get them ready to fly. Many of the customers tech staff will be used to this process as they routinely store/pull out of storage frames sometimes on a seasonal basis.

Well the mods put up another thread with all the reference material to make it easier to get answers to some questions.
We can add two additional responses to his question. WN had previously announced that they would prioritize new deliveries over parked frames, that could have been when they were being optimistic about RTS but it can still hold since there are a number of completed a/c in WN colours. Secondly, the FAA now has to certify individual a/c because they do not trust Boeing, so until the FAA announces something on that score, it would be wise to pad any RTS schedule with the need for the FAA with its limited resources to certify each frame.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:43 pm

morrisond wrote:
Why wouldn't you expect them to do "the decent thing".
...
They have 12,000 employees with not a lot to do before return to 40 plus per month of production.


Because it is never their fault, and not going to set a new precedence by accepting mistake.
...
400 planes need maintenance. If I have to paraphrase a.net "One year outside unattended frames will be worthless".

If not they will be shown the exit. You are making it sound like management cares about employees.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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PixelFlight
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:11 pm

par13del wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Same for me. But it's still a well keep secret, so, as unbelievable as it could be, I am now preparing to see a RTS without the natural characteristics know even to the pilots. I am wondering how the various pilots association will accept that without making a scandal.

Today everyone wants pilots to be system administrators, the computer, design of the a/c and the human interface are to be the key to having safe flight, that chorus has gotten so strong that even Boeing's new CEO is talking about an adjustment in the old mantra "pilots always having the last say".
Since Airbus has been leading in narrow body sales for a number of years and holds over 50% market share, I would say that the number of pilot associations would be minimal and centered around Boeing since fully FBW a/c reduce and even eliminate the need for pilots to know the natural feel of the a/c.

Having the pilots trained well enough to safely fly in direct law and/or without augmentation seem a reasonable requirement to me, regardless of the aircraft brand.
:stirthepot: 737-8 MAX: "For all speeds higher than 220 Kts and trim set at a value of 2.5 units, the difficulity level of turning the manual trim wheel was level A (trim wheel not movable)." :stirthepot:
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:16 pm

PixelFlight wrote:
par13del wrote:
PixelFlight wrote:
Having the pilots trained well enough to safely fly in direct law and/or without augmentation seem a reasonable requirement to me, regardless of the aircraft brand.

Somewhere else in this thread we have post about pilots not being able to stall fully FBW a/c.
On another note, friendly reminder, ensure that you state all the relevant caveats BEFORE talking about pilot training in a MAX thread.
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:34 pm

par13del wrote:
Somewhere else in this thread we have post about pilots not being able to stall fully FBW a/c.


In Normal Law.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:33 pm

I expect some of those 1200 employees are being trained and certified to get delivered but now grounded planes back in service. Some of them will get to do some world travel and nice long hours of overtime. I'll bet there will be a lot of paperwork to make that happen. Others will be trained to get the main lines at Renton up and running. They will be one busy team - and valuable to the company. Hope that remains so.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 4:59 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I expect some of those 1200 employees are being trained and certified to get delivered but now grounded planes back in service. Some of them will get to do some world travel and nice long hours of overtime. I'll bet there will be a lot of paperwork to make that happen. Others will be trained to get the main lines at Renton up and running. They will be one busy team - and valuable to the company. Hope that remains so.

According to Calhoun, they are using the down time at Renton to improve the efficiency of the production line. Not sure what that means but am interested to learn more. Maybe we'll get an article in FG or AvWeek at some point in time.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:26 am

uta999 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
gobears19 wrote:
This has probably been covered earlier, but Boeing has said a software patch is the cure for what brought down those airliners, but wasn’t relying on a single AOA sensor a contributing factor as well?

What are they going to do about that?


MCAS used one sensor at a time. It changed from left to right (or the opposite) every flight. The new software will instead use both sensors all the time, and MCAS won't activate if the two sensors aren't in agreement about the angle of attack : if there is a disagreement, it means one sensor is broken, the system can't know which one, so will disable itself.

So in that event, the MAX will be flying without MCAS at all. So how can that be okay, but deleting MCAS altogether not? It makes no sense.

How that can be okay? Well, an AoA disagree tells the crew that there is a disagree, so stay away from high AoA work in manual flight, and nothing will happen. Pull high AoA on the yoke, and you may experience weird control, especially if you have a relatively aft CoG.

Isn't that a vast improvement over present situation when the plane tells nothing to the crew, but silently goes into kamikaze mode?

If the authorities will accept that simple dual sensor layout, I don't know. But there are many cases where a system failure on a plane degrades the functionality and warns the crew accordingly. A dual sensor MCAS with disabling of MCAS in case of single sensor failure would be no exception.

Of course the real 21st century way to do business is minimum triple sensors and no system degrade in case of single failure. But that will cost more money to implement.

Bear in mind, MCAS is there to repair a minor aerodynamic problem at an edge of the envelope. Thousands of MAX crews will likely spend a whole career of 25,000 hours flying the MAX without even activating MCAS a single time.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
kyu
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:35 am

prebennorholm wrote:
Bear in mind, MCAS is there to repair a minor aerodynamic problem at an edge of the envelope. Thousands of MAX crews will likely spend a whole career of 25,000 hours flying the MAX without even activating MCAS a single time.

... says Boeing.

We'll see what EASA says.
 
dangle
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I expect some of those 1200 employees are being trained and certified to get delivered but now grounded planes back in service. Some of them will get to do some world travel and nice long hours of overtime. I'll bet there will be a lot of paperwork to make that happen. Others will be trained to get the main lines at Renton up and running. They will be one busy team - and valuable to the company. Hope that remains so.

According to Calhoun, they are using the down time at Renton to improve the efficiency of the production line. Not sure what that means but am interested to learn more. Maybe we'll get an article in FG or AvWeek at some point in time.


And apparently trying to remove a pair of breeding peregrine falcons that have been living inside the building alongside the planes and workers:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... n-problem/
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:46 pm

dangle wrote:
And apparently trying to remove a pair of breeding peregrine falcons that have been living inside the building alongside the planes and workers:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-ne ... n-problem/

TFA says:

Instead of trapping, Deal favors installing nest boxes on the assembly plant’s roof, before harassing the birds out of the hangar, closing the doors for several months and hoping the peregrines take to the man-made nests.

“The real solution is closing the doors at the right time,” Anderson said, adding that if the doors remain closed through March, the falcons will go through courtship and settle down elsewhere.

When it comes to the birds, “the shutdown is almost a blessing in disguise,” Deal said. “The urge to nest is strong.”

Life is stranger than fiction.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I expect some of those 1200 employees are being trained and certified to get delivered but now grounded planes back in service. Some of them will get to do some world travel and nice long hours of overtime. I'll bet there will be a lot of paperwork to make that happen. Others will be trained to get the main lines at Renton up and running. They will be one busy team - and valuable to the company. Hope that remains so.

According to Calhoun, they are using the down time at Renton to improve the efficiency of the production line. Not sure what that means but am interested to learn more. Maybe we'll get an article in FG or AvWeek at some point in time.


It is a blessing. Making changes to a line running at such a high frequency is hard, but now they can prepare the line to reduce the production costs and be ready for higher output once the grounding finally ends. Boeing will return meaner and stronger.
 
14ccKemiskt
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:55 pm

journeyperson wrote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51253066

This BBC article illustrates the damage done to Boeing's image. The 777x first flight was marketed by Boeing as a demonstration of what they can do, but the 737 MAX casts a shadow over the reporting, with little information about the 777x (no mention of passenger capacity) but links to the MAX crashes..


Somewhere, deep down inside Boeing's PR group, someone is discretely smiling every day for making the decision NOT to market the new version of the Triple Seven as "777 MAX"
 
art
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Re: Boeing 737MAX Grounding, General Discussion Thread, January 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:11 pm

seahawk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I expect some of those 1200 employees are being trained and certified to get delivered but now grounded planes back in service. Some of them will get to do some world travel and nice long hours of overtime. I'll bet there will be a lot of paperwork to make that happen. Others will be trained to get the main lines at Renton up and running. They will be one busy team - and valuable to the company. Hope that remains so.

According to Calhoun, they are using the down time at Renton to improve the efficiency of the production line. Not sure what that means but am interested to learn more. Maybe we'll get an article in FG or AvWeek at some point in time.


It is a blessing. Making changes to a line running at such a high frequency is hard, but now they can prepare the line to reduce the production costs and be ready for higher output once the grounding finally ends. Boeing will return meaner and stronger.


And poorer.

You serious about the shutdown being a blessing? If I had a factory making 50 widgets a month and had to shut it down for a few months during which I enhanced the production process, I would look on that as damage mitigation, not as some kind of bonus.

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