Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
NZ6
Posts: 1552
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:34 pm

NZ516 wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
NZ516 wrote:

The runway is a little bit short as for ATR72 at mtow needs 1367m so are presently not able to take a full load out of New Plymouth. So a small extension would certainly be of benefit.


Did you just google this and get it from Wiki?

Takeoff: 1,367 m (4,485 ft) [MTOW]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATR_72

NPL-AKL is 123nm based on gcmap which is about 15% of the max range listed on atraircraft.com but that also lists the distance for MTOW as 1.8km.

I guess my point is, MTOW includes a full load of fuel which is clearly not required ex NPL. So unless you have access or have found some charts I'm wondering how accurate this is.

http://www.atraircraft.com/products/ATR-72-600.html

I'm not suggesting runway work isn't needed. I honestly don't know and just started looking it up.


Actually I went straight to wiki. The NPL to CHC flights might be more of an issue with the longer route than to AKL. The link on the ATR from the manufacture is a good resource thanks for including it.


Oh right, these 'statistics' are very very generic as there's a heap of variables. Even CHC-NPL is only a third of the max range.

Looks like it'll need to happen some day though.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1552
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:34 pm

Seeing as it's in the media, is anyone keen to share their thoughts on these?

Questions 3 & 4 and maybe 2 could be hard to answer but 1 & 5 anyone could.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indust ... -questions

  1. What is the most important thing we could do to consistently improve our customer service?
  2. Where does Air New Zealand waste money that could be better spent serving our customers?
  3. What do you like most about the Air New Zealand culture that you want to preserve?
  4. If you could change one thing about the culture, what would that be?
  5. What opportunities do you see for us to grow our revenue and profitability?
 
NZ516
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:55 am

For me I could answer 5.
They could enter new markets with careful market analysis first I think AKL to HBA could work well with kiwis holidaying in Tassie a very different part of Australia and could gain more feed for NZ's American services as well. Wanaka would be good to add on the domestic side once things get sorted..
 
NZ516
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:04 am

The Last 10 Years - Dropped Ports and Routes

http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2020/01/ ... s-and.html

This was a great find. on here is a list of all the routes and ports dropped in NZ in just 10 years. with 17 in total. Some have been taken up and dropped again eg WLG to WAG.and AKL to HLZ. While others still have potential to be reopened again eg MRO and WKA and are still a missing link in like a national air network connecting the nation. I don't think Mount Cook will ever make a comeback.
 
Gasman
Posts: 2202
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:55 am

NZ6 wrote:
Seeing as it's in the media, is anyone keen to share their thoughts on these?


Hmmmm let me think. Yes very.

nz6 wrote:
  1. What is the most important thing we could do to consistently improve our customer service?

Improve the international hard product in Y and J. Y+ is on target

NZ6 wrote:
  • Where does Air New Zealand waste money that could be better spent serving our customers?

  • Safety videos

    NZ6 wrote:
  • What do you like most about the Air New Zealand culture that you want to preserve?

  • Most of it has already gone. The teal livery, a comfortable hard product, professionalism, flagship VLA aircraft.

    NZ6 wrote:
  • If you could change one thing about the culture, what would that be?

  • Emphasise professionalism at all levels.

    NZ6 wrote:
  • What opportunities do you see for us to grow our revenue and profitability?

  • - A shift away from the LCC model
    - Take risks on potentially lucrative routes (like SYD-LAX)
    - Aggressively target high revenue frequent fliers. Status match New Zealand based QF Gold and Platinum.
    - Branch out into ostrich farming, bitcoin and timeshares.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:21 pm

    NZ516 wrote:
    For me I could answer 5.
    They could enter new markets with careful market analysis first I think AKL to HBA could work well with kiwis holidaying in Tassie a very different part of Australia and could gain more feed for NZ's American services as well. Wanaka would be good to add on the domestic side once things get sorted..


    I believe it's looking deeper within their current network and product range to increase revenue such as Sky Couch / Economy Plus Seating. It's a pretty hard question as the airline's done a lot of this over the last decade when you think about it.

    To name a few.... Credit Card Partners, Car Parking, Taxi's, Foreign Currency Card, Credit Card Fees, Paid Seating, Extra Bags, Seats to Suit, Sky Couch, Buy on Board etc.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:49 pm

    Gasman wrote:
    NZ6 wrote:
    Seeing as it's in the media, is anyone keen to share their thoughts on these?

    Hmmmm let me think. Yes very.

    Oh, okay I'll bite....

    Gasman wrote:
    nz6 wrote:
    1. What is the most important thing we could do to consistently improve our customer service?

    Improve the international hard product in Y and J. Y+ is on target


    Fair enough, if you believe the hard product is consistently low experience for customers.

    Gasman wrote:
    NZ6 wrote:
  • Where does Air New Zealand waste money that could be better spent serving our customers?

  • Safety videos

    Again, fair enough. But have you considered the marketing exposure and 'value for money' of these videos? While you don't like the video itself, does this personal preference significantly outweigh the marketing benefit?

    Presumably the majority of the expense comes from the marketing budget, if not done - would you save any money as such or just end up spending more (or less) on less effective marketing campaigns (Billboards, Print or e-Media advertising?).

    You've got 3 reasonably new American routes (IAH, ORD and EWR) plus SFO and LAX. What do you think it'd cost to do any kind of marketing in all 5 locations? Not just that, the safety videos work for YVR, PVG, HKG, TYO etc etc. Bang for buck!

    Gasman wrote:
    NZ6 wrote:
  • What do you like most about the Air New Zealand culture that you want to preserve?

  • Most of it has already gone. The teal livery, a comfortable hard product, professionalism, flagship VLA aircraft.


    This is more an internal question on culture. But the outside do see some of it.

    It seems you've approached the questions with a negative mindset and actually forgotten to answer this. For me, it's a acknowledgement that Kiwis are uniquely Kiwi and encouraged to be so. This comes through in many aspects of the business, internal and external.

    Gasman wrote:
    NZ6 wrote:
  • If you could change one thing about the culture, what would that be?

  • Emphasise professionalism at all levels.

    I'm not sure what you mean by this, but at a guess you are referring to the airlines 'fun' approach to things at times. Such as the safety videos?
    You'd prefer a more clinical / corporate airline. Much like a SQ or EK?

    Gasman wrote:
    NZ6 wrote:
  • What opportunities do you see for us to grow our revenue and profitability?

  • - A shift away from the LCC model
    - Take risks on potentially lucrative routes (like SYD-LAX)
    - Aggressively target high revenue frequent fliers. Status match New Zealand based QF Gold and Platinum.
    - Branch out into ostrich farming, bitcoin and timeshares.


    All fair thoughts and suggestions. My personal thoughts

    - Re LCC, Seats to Suit is still working very well for the airline. If the airline dropped it I wouldn't be disappointed but would be concerned about Tiger, JetStar's ability to have lower cost base. I also don't think we need anymore more than we have domestically. I do not need to have IFE or anything to eat on my flight to WLG, CHC or ZQN from AKL. Give me my WIFI and I'm happy.
    - Growing the USA into the East coast is making more of Australia accessible via 1 stop on NZ, previously 2. This allows NZ to compete with QF, AA, UA. SYD-LAX is a blood bath and would be irresponsible of NZ.
    - Would be good to know specially what you mean. Many QF members have moved to NZ and some NZ have gone to QF. NZ doesn't really need QF members unless their travel patterns benefit NZ which really only applies to the Tasman. A QF premium member in Aussie who flies to the USA isn't really going to want to switch to NZ unless they are unhappy with QF. There should be some acknowledgement QF and NZ are different airlines with different network and passenger needs even if they've very similar in other ways. We're not comparing UA/AA.
     
    Gasman
    Posts: 2202
    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:30 pm

    NZ6 wrote:
    Fair enough, if you believe the hard product is consistently low experience for customers.


    In Y and J, I do. J is well and truly outdated and introducing it on the 787 was IMHO an aircraft too far. The long anticipated replacement has been..... well, long anticipated. Premium customers paying premium dollar deserve better. Y is, in a nutshell, too cramped. It wasn't that long ago that you could argue that NZ's Y product was as good as, if not better than, SQ's. I don't think anyone would attempt to do that now.

    NZ6 wrote:
    Gasman wrote:
    NZ6 wrote:
    [*]Where does Air New Zealand waste money that could be better spent serving our customers?

    Safety videos

    Again, fair enough. But have you considered the marketing exposure and 'value for money' of these videos? While you don't like the video itself, does this personal preference significantly outweigh the marketing benefit?

    Presumably the majority of the expense comes from the marketing budget, if not done - would you save any money as such or just end up spending more (or less) on less effective marketing campaigns (Billboards, Print or e-Media advertising?).

    You've got 3 reasonably new American routes (IAH, ORD and EWR) plus SFO and LAX. What do you think it'd cost to do any kind of marketing in all 5 locations? Not just that, the safety videos work for YVR, PVG, HKG, TYO etc etc. Bang for buck!


    You're preaching from the book of Fyfe. I'm not saying these arguments are wrong, but it's very difficult to quantify what tangible benefit there has been from putting the marketing into the aircraft and bombarding your pax with it. Put the marketing budget where it belongs and make the safety message informative and engaging without being irritating or trashy - or costly. Other airlines don't do it - and presumably they want the best bang for their buck from marketing as well.

    NZ6 wrote:
    Gasman wrote:
    NZ6 wrote:
    [*]What do you like most about the Air New Zealand culture that you want to preserve?

    Most of it has already gone. The teal livery, a comfortable hard product, professionalism, flagship VLA aircraft.


    This is more an internal question on culture. But the outside do see some of it.

    It seems you've approached the questions with a negative mindset and actually forgotten to answer this. For me, it's a acknowledgement that Kiwis are uniquely Kiwi and encouraged to be so. This comes through in many aspects of the business, internal and external.


    Yes, I realise this was an internal question but I don't work for NZ so was adding an external perspective. There will be just under 5 million answers as to what is what is "uniquely Kiwi". For some, what is perceived to be Kiwi is woefully over reliant on sport. I personally think what had been built up over decades as "uniquely Air New Zealand" has been largely tossed aside - which I think was very short sighted, and a shame.

    NZ6 wrote:
    Gasman wrote:
    NZ6 wrote:
    [*]If you could change one thing about the culture, what would that be?

    Emphasise professionalism at all levels.

    I'm not sure what you mean by this, but at a guess you are referring to the airlines 'fun' approach to things at times. Such as the safety videos?
    You'd prefer a more clinical / corporate airline. Much like a SQ or EK?


    Yes, although I wouldn't use the slightly negative terms "clinical and corporate". It's possible to be friendly and professional at the same time. I think SQ and QF get it right. No, I don't want "fun".

    NZ6 wrote:
    Gasman wrote:
    NZ6 wrote:
    [*]What opportunities do you see for us to grow our revenue and profitability?[/list]

    - A shift away from the LCC model
    - Take risks on potentially lucrative routes (like SYD-LAX)
    - Aggressively target high revenue frequent fliers. Status match New Zealand based QF Gold and Platinum.
    - Branch out into ostrich farming, bitcoin and timeshares.


    All fair thoughts and suggestions. My personal thoughts

    - Re LCC, Seats to Suit is still working very well for the airline. If the airline dropped it I wouldn't be disappointed but would be concerned about Tiger, JetStar's ability to have lower cost base. I also don't think we need anymore more than we have domestically. I do not need to have IFE or anything to eat on my flight to WLG, CHC or ZQN from AKL. Give me my WIFI and I'm happy.
    - Growing the USA into the East coast is making more of Australia accessible via 1 stop on NZ, previously 2. This allows NZ to compete with QF, AA, UA. SYD-LAX is a blood bath and would be irresponsible of NZ.


    It's a blood bath for a reason. It's an awesome route. I think NZ need to stop relying on long haul routes where there are no predators around.

    NZ6 wrote:
    - Would be good to know specially what you mean. Many QF members have moved to NZ and some NZ have gone to QF. NZ doesn't really need QF members unless their travel patterns benefit NZ which really only applies to the Tasman. A QF premium member in Aussie who flies to the USA isn't really going to want to switch to NZ unless they are unhappy with QF. There should be some acknowledgement QF and NZ are different airlines with different network and passenger needs even if they've very similar in other ways. We're not comparing UA/AA.


    QF partly got me because they status matched NZ's Gold Elite, so I gave them a go. I was already getting disgruntled with NZ, but the status matching provided me with a bit of a push. I rapidly decided I prefer QF's overall product. I occasionally have to suck up the inconvenience of flying to the US via Australia. If I perceived NZ had upped their game, I'd come back. If they gave me Gold Elite back tomorrow, I'd fly Air NZ on my next trip.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:10 pm

    Gasman wrote:
    In Y and J, I do. J is well and truly outdated and introducing it on the 787 was IMHO an aircraft too far. The long anticipated replacement has been..... well, long anticipated. Premium customers paying premium dollar deserve better. Y is, in a nutshell, too cramped. It wasn't that long ago that you could argue that NZ's Y product was as good as, if not better than, SQ's. I don't think anyone would attempt to do that now.

    That's fair enough, I'd agree the J product is showing some age. I can't tell you you're wrong for your thoughts. Going back to the first question of it being the most important thing.

    Personally, J is still pretty good in my opinion. I think the crew make a massive difference here as well. The herringbone style chair with direct aisle access to still a lot better than some alternative options out there. So that's a big plus too.

    Economy. I think we're starting to see a shift into 4 distinct cabins. Y, Y+, Premium Economy and Business. Those who are budget conscious will get your standard economy seat and those buying higher end fares will get better location, more leg room etc. Before this was done via paid seat or HVC status but it's becoming more of a product itself now. Probably tapping into question 5 now.

    Gasman wrote:
    You're preaching from the book of Fyfe. I'm not saying these arguments are wrong, but it's very difficult to quantify what tangible benefit there has been from putting the marketing into the aircraft and bombarding your pax with it. Put the marketing budget where it belongs and make the safety message informative and engaging without being irritating or trashy - or costly. Other airlines don't do it - and presumably they want the best bang for their buck from marketing as well.

    It is measurable to some extend. There are long term trends around brand and country awareness and desire to travel here. Google search statistics and many other ways to pull this information.

    You could easily argue IAH, ORD and EWR have opened without reduction in legacy North America routes. You could easily draw some relationships between the two and offset the estimated cost to reach X million Americans in 5 major cities?

    I have disliked a number of videos, there are some I really enjoy too. Each to their own on with specific videos - the concept behind them is what works.

    Gasman wrote:
    Yes, I realise this was an internal question but I don't work for NZ so was adding an external perspective. There will be just under 5 million answers as to what is what is "uniquely Kiwi". For some, what is perceived to be Kiwi is woefully over reliant on sport. I personally think what had been built up over decades as "uniquely Air New Zealand" has been largely tossed aside - which I think was very short sighted, and a shame.

    I wont get into this, there is internal framework around what this means. Which by in large works reasonably well but with over 10,000 employees and a diverse workforce. It's always going to mean different things to different people. Having flown overseas like many of us here have. There's something very unique about the Kiwi approach to things. This is what we talk about.

    Gasman wrote:
    Yes, although I wouldn't use the slightly negative terms "clinical and corporate". It's possible to be friendly and professional at the same time. I think SQ and QF get it right. No, I don't want "fun".

    So you need your crew to be friendly and professional, but not clinical and corporate(robotic is another term that comes to mind) but you can't be seen as fun and (youthful, energetic for more adjectives).. Oh boy!

    Gasman wrote:
    It's a blood bath for a reason. It's an awesome route. I think NZ need to stop relying on long haul routes where there are no predators around.

    Ultimate question, why compete in a blood bath if it is one? What's the benefit to NZ? Just why? I don't see the need. Worry about your own backyard and grow that.

    Gasman wrote:
    QF partly got me because they status matched NZ's Gold Elite, so I gave them a go. I was already getting disgruntled with NZ, but the status matching provided me with a bit of a push. I rapidly decided I prefer QF's overall product. I occasionally have to suck up the inconvenience of flying to the US via Australia. If I perceived NZ had upped their game, I'd come back. If they gave me Gold Elite back tomorrow, I'd fly Air NZ on my next trip.

    NZ also take on-board QF members. It works both ways and isn't isolated to NZ/QF or even airlines.
     
    Gasman
    Posts: 2202
    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:36 pm

    All acknowledged NZ6. I still stand by the things I suggested though. Two points:

    - SYD-LAX was just an example. There is a perception that internationally, NZ sticks to routes which are "safe" - which rarely translates into lucrative. AKL-EWR is one notable exception, and I genuinely hope they nail this one.

    - Youthful and energetic is fine. There's little worse than your 55 year old flight service director whose enthusiasm and physical health departed 20 years ago. But I'm reminded of when I boarded NZ J in the peak of Fyfedom and was greeted with "mate" by a 20-something FA with his shirt hanging out. Soon to be followed by a screeching safety video. If that's the definition of "fun", you can keep it.

    It's travel for crying out loud. Give me space, efficiency, on time performance, professionalism and, where possible, peace and quiet.
     
    User avatar
    SCFlyer
    Posts: 577
    Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:03 am

    I don't think NZ will want to step on their JV partner UA's toes on the SYD-LAX route. As mentioned, most AU-USA routes are at their lowest yields yet. UA, and even QF and VA are pulling back frequencies on the SYD-LAX during off-peak to either do (in VA's case) mandatory check maintenance (or in QF's case refurbs) on their A388 and 77W fleets during the quieter/off-peak months.

    UA pulls back on on selected AU-USA (including LAX) seasonally to put their 789s elsewhere on higher yielding routes during the Trans-Pacific "off-peak"
     
    NYKiwi
    Posts: 87
    Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:41 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:54 am

    Anyone flown on UA flight SFO - AKL wondering how the 781 is....presume not much difference to 789 but curious as looking to book a trip
     
    NZ516
    Posts: 418
    Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:31 am

    Origin Air press release on its return to WLG is now out:
    https://originair.co.nz/originair-adds- ... ton-route/
     
    NZ516
    Posts: 418
    Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:38 am

    Air New Zealand NS20 Long-Haul changes as of 14JAN20

    https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-14jan20/

    Lots of new changes happening with many equipment swaps probably related to RR engine problems. One new change is the AKL to TPE service will switch to a 772 on 29 March 4 weekly.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:35 am

    Gasman wrote:
    All acknowledged NZ6. I still stand by the things I suggested though. Two points:

    - SYD-LAX was just an example. There is a perception that internationally, NZ sticks to routes which are "safe" - which rarely translates into lucrative. AKL-EWR is one notable exception, and I genuinely hope they nail this one.

    - Youthful and energetic is fine. There's little worse than your 55 year old flight service director whose enthusiasm and physical health departed 20 years ago. But I'm reminded of when I boarded NZ J in the peak of Fyfedom and was greeted with "mate" by a 20-something FA with his shirt hanging out. Soon to be followed by a screeching safety video. If that's the definition of "fun", you can keep it.

    It's travel for crying out loud. Give me space, efficiency, on time performance, professionalism and, where possible, peace and quiet.


    You're opinion is valid here. Don't take my challenges/response to these as me saying you're "wrong" I see it as we're just discussing it as you would over a beer.

    SYD-LAX is one example, do you have one which originates in NZ home base? I don't see why you'd go into a blood bath market when it's not your home market when there's QF,VA,AA,DL,UA and probably close to a dozen 1-stop carriers. Commercial risk over what potential reward?

    I personally dislike the 20 something crew members more than 50+ year old members who I find are more genuinely interested in making your flight enjoyable vs the 'holiday' at the other end.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:40 am

    SCFlyer wrote:
    I don't think NZ will want to step on their JV partner UA's toes on the SYD-LAX route. As mentioned, most AU-USA routes are at their lowest yields yet. UA, and even QF and VA are pulling back frequencies on the SYD-LAX during off-peak to either do (in VA's case) mandatory check maintenance (or in QF's case refurbs) on their A388 and 77W fleets during the quieter/off-peak months.

    UA pulls back on on selected AU-USA (including LAX) seasonally to put their 789s elsewhere on higher yielding routes during the Trans-Pacific "off-peak"


    I think the front of the bus passenger market is well captured by QF.

    The US customer is keen to fly on the big red Kangaroo of Quantas for their trip down under unless they're UA,DL,AA loyal.

    It's highly questionable if NZ would really attract anyone new who wouldn't already be prepared to fly via AKL.

    These new routes offer something new too, those ex ORD for example may opt for NZ via AKL vs QF via BNE. In many cases things become level playing.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:42 am

    NZ516 wrote:
    Origin Air press release on its return to WLG is now out:
    https://originair.co.nz/originair-adds- ... ton-route/


    They really need to get to a point where they're daily morning and evening each way to complete seriously.
     
    User avatar
    VirginFlyer
    Posts: 5574
    Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:05 am

    Last night there was a fire alarm at Auckland’s control tower which caused a few issues. I was tracking NZ108, which ended up doing 5 laps of the hold on approach to 05 - added a good 25 minutes to the flight time! Not sure how many other arrivals and departures were also affected.

    V/F
    It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
     
    ZK-NBT
    Posts: 7460
    Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:07 am

    NZ516 wrote:
    Air New Zealand NS20 Long-Haul changes as of 14JAN20

    https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... f-14jan20/

    Lots of new changes happening with many equipment swaps probably related to RR engine problems. One new change is the AKL to TPE service will switch to a 772 on 29 March 4 weekly.


    Interesting re the 772 to TPE, I would have thought NRT or PER, PER particularly given its short duration. Maybe they actually need the extra J seats to TPE the 772 offers.
     
    zkncj
    Posts: 3805
    Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:25 am

    NZ516 wrote:
    Origin Air press release on its return to WLG is now out:
    https://originair.co.nz/originair-adds- ... ton-route/


    Wonder what 30seats they are looking into, maybe we might see some Bae J41s back into the country again.

    Did Origin Pacific cross Pilot the J32/41s?
     
    Gasman
    Posts: 2202
    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:33 am

    NZ6 wrote:
    Gasman wrote:
    All acknowledged NZ6. I still stand by the things I suggested though. Two points:

    - SYD-LAX was just an example. There is a perception that internationally, NZ sticks to routes which are "safe" - which rarely translates into lucrative. AKL-EWR is one notable exception, and I genuinely hope they nail this one.

    - Youthful and energetic is fine. There's little worse than your 55 year old flight service director whose enthusiasm and physical health departed 20 years ago. But I'm reminded of when I boarded NZ J in the peak of Fyfedom and was greeted with "mate" by a 20-something FA with his shirt hanging out. Soon to be followed by a screeching safety video. If that's the definition of "fun", you can keep it.

    It's travel for crying out loud. Give me space, efficiency, on time performance, professionalism and, where possible, peace and quiet.


    You're opinion is valid here. Don't take my challenges/response to these as me saying you're "wrong" I see it as we're just discussing it as you would over a beer.


    Cheers! :)

    NZ6 wrote:
    SYD-LAX is one example, do you have one which originates in NZ home base? I don't see why you'd go into a blood bath market when it's not your home market when there's QF,VA,AA,DL,UA and probably close to a dozen 1-stop carriers. Commercial risk over what potential reward?


    Because in spite of it being a "blood bath", 5 Australian and US carriers are making enough money off it to stay in the game, some more than once daily. NZ going back in would be a huge gamble. But pitch it right in terms of timing and product, and, who knows. Don't get me wrong, I'm not *advocating* this particular route. I'm suggesting a slightly more "think big" approach globally. Going into EWR is consistent with this. Pulling out of LHR isn't (although I don't imagine for a moment this decision was made lightly). Neither is scrambling to form a codeshare alliance with every new carrier that threatens a previously monopolistic route.

    NZ6 wrote:
    I personally dislike the 20 something crew members more than 50+ year old members who I find are more genuinely interested in making your flight enjoyable vs the 'holiday' at the other end.


    Yes, but every demographic is capable of confirming both the positive and negative stereotypes associated with it.
     
    NZ516
    Posts: 418
    Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:21 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:54 am

    zkncj wrote:
    NZ516 wrote:
    Origin Air press release on its return to WLG is now out:
    https://originair.co.nz/originair-adds- ... ton-route/


    Wonder what 30seats they are looking into, maybe we might see some Bae J41s back into the country again.

    Did Origin Pacific cross Pilot the J32/41s?


    Yes even Steve agrees on the J41 is possible on his post from today:
    http://3rdlevelnz.blogspot.com/2020/01/ ... ngton.html

    Not sure about the pilots. Perhaps they will use it on a AKL service the larger 30 seater when they get it.
     
    zkncj
    Posts: 3805
    Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:44 am

    Image

    At what point do New Zealand domestic fares become stupidly over priced? And allowed to happen when they NZ has the lion share of the market.

    I know I’m looking at last minute fares, but seriously $430 seat only to Wellington! I can fly to Brisbane tonight in Bussiness Class for $500, something doesn’t soon right with that logic.

    I’ve often booked last minute fares in places in Europe etc on the day, and still paid an 1/3 of that price.

    I wonder how much domestic trouisim is held back by NZ’s extreme last minute fares?
     
    zkeoj
    Posts: 1224
    Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:00 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:00 am

    zkncj wrote:
    Image

    At what point do New Zealand domestic fares become stupidly over priced? And allowed to happen when they NZ has the lion share of the market.

    I know I’m looking at last minute fares, but seriously $430 seat only to Wellington! I can fly to Brisbane tonight in Bussiness Class for $500, something doesn’t soon right with that logic.

    I’ve often booked last minute fares in places in Europe etc on the day, and still paid an 1/3 of that price.

    I wonder how much domestic trouisim is held back by NZ’s extreme last minute fares?


    And hour later you can fly for $159! It's called market driven pricing. Did you have a look at JQ's fares? I often found them even more expensive on NZ trunk routes. The prop-routes were well priced, but they are gone....
     
    zkncj
    Posts: 3805
    Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:13 am

    zkeoj wrote:
    And hour later you can fly for $159! It's called market driven pricing. Did you have a look at JQ's fares? I often found them even more expensive on NZ trunk routes. The prop-routes were well priced, but they are gone....


    Yeah you could get Jetstar for around the same price, agreed that JQ Regional Fares we're great last minute but Jetstar is gone and NZ has gone back up on the regionally routes.

    Sadly its cheaper to goto Aussie for the weekend last minute than it is to stay in New Zealand.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:38 am

    zkncj wrote:
    At what point do New Zealand domestic fares become stupidly over priced? And allowed to happen when they NZ has the lion share of the market.

    I know I’m looking at last minute fares, but seriously $430 seat only to Wellington! I can fly to Brisbane tonight in Bussiness Class for $500, something doesn’t soon right with that logic.

    I’ve often booked last minute fares in places in Europe etc on the day, and still paid an 1/3 of that price.

    I wonder how much domestic trouisim is held back by NZ’s extreme last minute fares?


    $430 AKLWLG is too much for me and for you. To be honest the second half of the fares table is pretty un-affordable for most personal leisure travel. Even $249 or $304 is too high. Double that for return and if there's more than one person you can get upwards of over a grand for a couple to get away for a weekend.

    On the other hand, the other end of the table is good , I can get to WLG or CHC return for myself and my wife and have change from $200 if we're organised.

    There are a lot of fares at $129, $159 and $189 which we'll let the jury decide on if that's cheap or not.

    The majority of tourism isn't last minute so I don't think it'll be held back that much as a result.

    Don't compare this to BNE in J tonight, compare full and full so perhaps look at MEL next week when the Aussie Open is on, you're up close to $1,400 then!
     
    User avatar
    aerorobnz
    Posts: 8346
    Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:37 am

    AKL-WLG is 480km. I fill my car for $110 and can drive 540-550km. That's 23c a km to drive AKL-WLG (17c per km per fill). InterCity costs $69 which costs 13c a km.
    A fare of $189 is 39c a km (for the convenience of being there in under an hour and without the fatigue). I don't think that's too bad and also is inline with many many prices for similar distances internationally.. Last minute last year (2 days before dep )I paid $770usd ow in Y LAX-ORD.which is somewhere in order 35c per km.

    The lowest fares you see are loss leaders, the highest last minute fares dictated by market demand on a flight subsidize the lowest sale/advance purchase/market stimulation fares. If you want to avoid the peaks then you have to stop the lower fares and increase the average fare. That's something that most people are unwilling to sacrifice.
    Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
     
    ZKNCI
    Posts: 70
    Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:38 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:56 am

    NYKiwi wrote:
    Anyone flown on UA flight SFO - AKL wondering how the 781 is....presume not much difference to 789 but curious as looking to book a trip

    Just flew back from SFO a few days ago on United 787-10 N12010. I can't compare to the 787-9, but would definitely take the United 787-10 over the Air NZ 777-200ER I had going the other way (ZK-OKD). On both flights I had a window seat in economy a few rows aft of the wing, and the 777 only had a few seats empty while the 787 was completely full.

    On the NZ 777, my knees were jammed against the seat in front and I couldn't move my feet, with the result my leg was cramped for a few days (the perils of flying while over 6ft! :lol: ). On the UA 787 I had a few cm clearance and my feet had plenty of room under the seat. The seats themselves were as comfortable as the NZ 777, so no difference there, but with the advantage the headrest came up higher and stayed up. The armrests were a lot smaller though on the UA 787. The IFE was a lot faster and more responsive on the UA 787 (not surprising, given it was only delivered Dec 24...). However, you do need to bring your own headphones, as they were not provided (unlike the NZ 777). Despite the dual-plug, standard headphones work fine.

    The UA 787 was definitely quieter and with less vibration, and the humidity helped for staying fresh. It does also have gasper vents, unlike the NZ 777, which were very effective and free-moving. The lavs were a bit smaller, but the layout meant that wasn't an issue. The crew did dim the windows and lock them shortly after take off, but being a night flight that didn't really impact anything. However, the dimmed windows could not block the rising sun, which was a very bright purple through the dimmed window, so right side of the aircraft is recommended for SFO-AKL. Just don't book Row 53, as you won't have a window! (I think it was 53, it was a few rows behind mine... avoid 52-54 to be safe! :geek: )

    Credit to the Air NZ cabin crew though, who were friendly and helpful throughout the flight. Most of the rear cabin were quite airsick when we hit a long period of turbulence approaching the US, and the crew did a good job keeping an eye on everyone and doing what they could.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:17 am

    aerorobnz wrote:
    AKL-WLG is 480km. I fill my car for $110 and can drive 540-550km. That's 23c a km to drive AKL-WLG (17c per km per fill). InterCity costs $69 which costs 13c a km.
    A fare of $189 is 39c a km (for the convenience of being there in under an hour and without the fatigue). I don't think that's too bad and also is inline with many many prices for similar distances internationally.. Last minute last year (2 days before dep )I paid $770usd ow in Y LAX-ORD.which is somewhere in order 35c per km.

    The lowest fares you see are loss leaders, the highest last minute fares dictated by market demand on a flight subsidize the lowest sale/advance purchase/market stimulation fares. If you want to avoid the peaks then you have to stop the lower fares and increase the average fare. That's something that most people are unwilling to sacrifice.


    You're $10K Corolla driven by yourself that scrapes through it's annual WOF vs a USD $110m jet flown by 2 pilots earning a wealthy wage which is also overhauled regularly.

    I like where you're going with it but....
     
    Gasman
    Posts: 2202
    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:36 am

    aerorobnz wrote:
    If you want to avoid the peaks then you have to stop the lower fares and increase the average fare. That's something that most people are unwilling to sacrifice.


    Indeed. Depends on where one is in one's "travel lifetime". When I started mine I used to buy "super thrifties" up to 11 months in advance with fares like $70 for WLG-DUD and it felt like Christmas. I just couldn't understand why everyone wasn't doing it. Nowadays, I'm always buying last minute tickets, paying through the nose and requiring flexibility as well. It's some sort of karma I suppose.
     
    zkncj
    Posts: 3805
    Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:32 am

    Gasman wrote:
    aerorobnz wrote:
    If you want to avoid the peaks then you have to stop the lower fares and increase the average fare. That's something that most people are unwilling to sacrifice.


    Indeed. Depends on where one is in one's "travel lifetime". When I started mine I used to buy "super thrifties" up to 11 months in advance with fares like $70 for WLG-DUD and it felt like Christmas. I just couldn't understand why everyone wasn't doing it. Nowadays, I'm always buying last minute tickets, paying through the nose and requiring flexibility as well. It's some sort of karma I suppose.


    It's totally an lifestyle thing, I have tickets booked that are 6months about for more planned trips.

    But there is nothing like decided on an Friday afternoon, lets go somewhere this weekend e.g. the Weather doesn't look to bad in Wellington and there is some good deals on hotels so let do it.

    Nothing like chucking an few items in your bag (forgetting to take half your items) and jumping in an Uber to the airport.

    We defiantly lack that freedom in New Zealand with domestic fares at times.
     
    zkncj
    Posts: 3805
    Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:23 pm

    Zkpilot wrote:
    .
    Another, unrelated question that some of you might be able to help me with: I flew AKL-BNE-AKL as a child, would have probably been mid-2007. Trying to work out which aircraft I flew on. It was definitely a wide-body, so I'm thinking 777-200 or 767. I might be blurring the two flights together, but I'm fairly certain seating was 3-3-3 and that there were overhead screens. Back in the day the 777s were in 3-3-3, but have the 777s always had seat-back IFE or did they have overhead screens at one stage? The other possibility is that it was a wide-body one way and an A320 the other. I can find two YouTube videos of the route from 2007, both are 777-200s.

    777s have always had seat back IFE so it would’ve been either a 767-300ER or 747-400. I know the 747 was doing BNE flights for a long time but even back then still had seat back IFE so likely 767 for you.[/quote]

    The a320/767s got seatback IFE installed around 2007/2008 to match with the close down of Freedom Air (the refit of the a320s was timed around this).

    BNE at times used to get an afternoon 763 service, with NZ135/136 pretty much being an daily 744.
     
    Gasman
    Posts: 2202
    Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:41 pm

    zkncj wrote:
    But there is nothing like decided on an Friday afternoon, lets go somewhere this weekend e.g. the Weather doesn't look to bad in Wellington and there is some good deals on hotels so let do it.

    Nothing like chucking an few items in your bag (forgetting to take half your items) and jumping in an Uber to the airport.

    We definitely lack that freedom in New Zealand with domestic fares at times.


    Totally. There are two business approaches to seats unsold at the last minute.

    - the airlines could either go:

    "well, better we get some bums in these seats than none at all; so let's flog them all off cheaply in the hope they get filled with spontaneous travelers" or

    "anyone that wants to travel at such short notice probably absolutely *has* to do so, so let's fleece them for as much as we can, and if some seats still remain unfilled so be it".

    Most major carriers seem to have calculated that the second model is the most revenue generating and operate on it as their default, and NZ is no exception. While you'll occasionally score great last minute fares on airlines like QF and NZ, it's the exception rather than the rule. I suspect that any carrier that predictably sells last minute fares for minimal dollar won't stay in business terribly long.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:57 pm

    Gasman wrote:
    Indeed. Depends on where one is in one's "travel lifetime". When I started mine I used to buy "super thrifties" up to 11 months in advance with fares like $70 for WLG-DUD and it felt like Christmas. I just couldn't understand why everyone wasn't doing it. Nowadays, I'm always buying last minute tickets, paying through the nose and requiring flexibility as well. It's some sort of karma I suppose.

    zkncj wrote:
    It's totally an lifestyle thing, I have tickets booked that are 6months about for more planned trips.

    But there is nothing like decided on an Friday afternoon, lets go somewhere this weekend e.g. the Weather doesn't look to bad in Wellington and there is some good deals on hotels so let do it.

    Nothing like chucking an few items in your bag (forgetting to take half your items) and jumping in an Uber to the airport.

    We defiantly lack that freedom in New Zealand with domestic fares at times.


    I don't know if I'd call that a lack of freedom. Anyone can do it. Prices on the weekend aren't that much better than week days especially given Friday afternoon and Sunday afternoon are when there's a lot of people moving about to either end or start their weeks.

    I get where you're coming from, I've done it myself in my time but if you were to play a numbers game... the majority have a low desire to do these sorts of things and those that do could probably fit into a similar demographic.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:23 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/118 ... -do-better

    I'm confused by some of these, random and ill thought-out ideas.

    1. The Regions.
    I don't know how this one will ever be solved. Flying with 200-350 other people and cargo, the majority of the time cursing at 35,000ft slightly above idle vs shorter more expensive segments divided by 50-70 people.

    Multiple people have given this a go, even the other NZ operators aren't "cheap" and JQ didn't last when it couldn't make money!

    Seriously, HOW does this get put to bed or HOW does any airline make flying regionally "cheap"?

    While, probably a good answer. is this just bandwagon jumping and raising the obvious with no real substance to it using the typical cliché line of getting to Australia cheaper.

    2. Where does Air New Zealand waste money that could be better spent serving our customers?
    So the Airport is the responsibility of the airline now? Isn't that the same as saying Farmers is responsible for Westfield? But the only difference is Farmers can't leave Westfield

    3. What do you like most about the Air New Zealand culture that you want to preserve?
    I'm not sure what their answer here is, is it the Kiwi approach or is it their innovation? I think I'll leave it at people in general which is probably correct.

    4. If you could change one thing about the culture, what would that be?
    I don't dispute needing more female pilots or having more female pilots would be nice. I'm not sure how this a culture thing in any way? It's 100% part of a wider industry shortage that's not linked in any way to NZ's own culture.

    PC response.

    5. What opportunities do you see for us to grow our revenue and profitability?
    They say the program is clear and simple vs QF. They then go on to complain when you spend $25 at New World you get $0.18c

    Do they expect $5 of your $25 you have to New World for your groceries to be given to Air NZ? Do you think this is any different at QF? The difference is it's disguised in a sum of thousands and in points which don't directly relate to any given flight. While you can argue it's X thousands to fly SYD-PER or SYD-AKL it's also subject to redemption availability meaning you're hard earn points which some argue may be more generously dished out are also burned on what would be a cheaper purchased seat.

    So what are they asking for exactly
     
    zkncj
    Posts: 3805
    Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:50 pm

    NZ6 wrote:
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/118795245/we-answer-air-new-zealands-big-5-questions-what-the-airline-can-do-better

    I'm confused by some of these, random and ill thought-out ideas.

    1. The Regions.
    I don't know how this one will ever be solved. Flying with 200-350 other people and cargo, the majority of the time cursing at 35,000ft slightly above idle vs shorter more expensive segments divided by 50-70 people.

    Multiple people have given this a go, even the other NZ operators aren't "cheap" and JQ didn't last when it couldn't make money!

    Seriously, HOW does this get put to bed or HOW does any airline make flying regionally "cheap"?

    While, probably a good answer. is this just bandwagon jumping and raising the obvious with no real substance to it using the typical cliché line of getting to Australia cheaper.


    The regions are an hard one they are an key part of the country, e.g. they provide allot more benefits to us city folks than we generally think. Think how much of good products come from the regions rather than day Auckland.

    In Australia there is public funding that goes towards regional routes, e.g without it REX would have been long gone.

    In some sense it’s the same way as funding an new highway, just that it’s more cost effective to fund regional flights.

    Roads/Highways between New Zealand’s regional cities are pretty poor, we don’t have any high speed rail. It’s really take an very slow bus, drive or fly.

    Maybe there should be an incentive to help grow regional travel, and maybe encourage another opertator to step up.

    Would love to see VA Regional enter the New Zealand market, but at the same time NZ is just going to crush anyone that tires to compete.

    Why I’m am all for cheap fares, I believe that that they should have to be reasonable and cover costs. For example those routes that JQ were on NZ/JQ were both selling large amounts for fares below cost.

    An $80-100 one way entry level fare for an 45-90minute flight would be an good start.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:13 pm

    Gasman wrote:
    Totally. There are two business approaches to seats unsold at the last minute.

    - the airlines could either go:

    "well, better we get some bums in these seats than none at all; so let's flog them all off cheaply in the hope they get filled with spontaneous travelers" or

    "anyone that wants to travel at such short notice probably absolutely *has* to do so, so let's fleece them for as much as we can, and if some seats still remain unfilled so be it".

    Most major carriers seem to have calculated that the second model is the most revenue generating and operate on it as their default, and NZ is no exception. While you'll occasionally score great last minute fares on airlines like QF and NZ, it's the exception rather than the rule. I suspect that any carrier that predictably sells last minute fares for minimal dollar won't stay in business terribly long.


    Most airlines don't target 100% when their tools allocate inventory. Each airline will know how to optimize revenue to it's fullest which will not always be 100% full. If they reach that, then that's just a bonus.

    You can then look at the 81% or 67% load and analyse what that's made up of as well. Of the 81%, 79% could be entry level with only 2% booked at higher levels. This is why I've gone on over the years above don't judge a route performance on how many people are on board.

    While you could take the first suggested approach above and lock in those who want that specific time and a seat on it, releasing seats on the day and entry level prices or even mid level prices if the flight is only 87% full (for example) That will change buyer behavior and any booking curve and early sale benefits will be diminished.

    There's a massive science behind the scenes and airlines have bespoke tools specifically designed to calculate what fare levels to offer ensuring you optimize revenue at flight level, day level, route level, network level including seasons, events and so many other variables. Likewise, you don't want to loose a long haul booking for the sake of a AKL-TRG sector do you - hence the network level.
     
    Unclekoru
    Posts: 315
    Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:00 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:20 pm

    zkncj wrote:
    zkeoj wrote:
    And hour later you can fly for $159! It's called market driven pricing. Did you have a look at JQ's fares? I often found them even more expensive on NZ trunk routes. The prop-routes were well priced, but they are gone....


    Yeah you could get Jetstar for around the same price, agreed that JQ Regional Fares we're great last minute but Jetstar is gone and NZ has gone back up on the regionally routes.

    Sadly its cheaper to goto Aussie for the weekend last minute than it is to stay in New Zealand.


    I believe Soundsair have a one price for all seats approach (or something similar). Much fairer but it means that there are no bargain fares so does little to stimulate discretionary travel. Some might argue a good thing in this day and age of climate change concern. But really, $200-300 one way for a flight between domestic cities in a machine that allows me to cut hours off my journey and avoid driving on NZ's terrible roads is still a reasonable bargain IMHO.
    It sounds like english, but I can't understand a word you're saying
     
    User avatar
    janders
    Moderator
    Posts: 1103
    Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:40 pm

    Just wondering how long has Air NZ not been offering business class cabin on non-widebody flights between NZ and Australia?

    Colleagues of mine as part of a technical team from a US vendor doing some back and forth ATC related work in AKL along with MEL ended up flying all AA/QF as disappointingly NZ did not offer required premium cabins on some segments. Probably good USD $50,000+ loss in revenue.




    .
    "We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
     
    User avatar
    Zkpilot
    Posts: 4513
    Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:57 pm

    janders wrote:
    Just wondering how long has Air NZ not been offering business class cabin on non-widebody flights between NZ and Australia?

    Colleagues of mine as part of a technical team from a US vendor doing some back and forth ATC related work in AKL along with MEL ended up flying all AA/QF as disappointingly NZ did not offer required premium cabins on some segments. Probably good USD $50,000+ loss in revenue.




    .

    Has been a long time. Probably should have changed with the A321NEO as they could have installed 8 seats in place of 18 economy seats and had a nice little earner up the front (remember that most business seats sell for around 4-5x the price of economy seats and weight savings too).
    64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
     
    NYKiwi
    Posts: 87
    Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:41 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:59 pm

    Dunno how long maybe 10 years but keep in mind flighys to all the main capital cities run a mix mostly WB but may have NB depending on time of day....to MEL the WB connects to all US flights both ways, they would have had the opp to fly up.front
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:32 am

    janders wrote:
    Just wondering how long has Air NZ not been offering business class cabin on non-widebody flights between NZ and Australia?

    Colleagues of mine as part of a technical team from a US vendor doing some back and forth ATC related work in AKL along with MEL ended up flying all AA/QF as disappointingly NZ did not offer required premium cabins on some segments. Probably good USD $50,000+ loss in revenue.
    .


    NZ removed Business Class from Domestic flights in 2002 when is launched it's "Express" service under Ralph Norris. At the time the airline was near collapse. Since then and largely due to this, the domestic market has grown significantly.

    On the Tasman, this was revamped on it's own but also building on from the Domestic "success". It was aligned with the introduction of the A320 fleet and as the 737-300 and 767-200 aircraft left the fleet. The A320's arrived in an all Economy configuration. It remains this way today with the A320 and A321 fleet.

    It's worth mentioning, the single aisle direction for the airline wasn't without it's criticism at the time but has since become widely accepted and the "norm" for JQ, NZ, QF and VA with the exception of QF and NZ's wide-body flight. Which takes me to those 763, 772, 77W, 744 and now 789 wide-body flights which utilize long haul aircraft that would otherwise sit on the ground in AKL during the day waiting for another long-haul departure that evening.

    With that, MEL, SYD, BNE have all for a very long time received a early to mid morning wide-body crossing which caters for all North American inbound passengers in either premium cabin.

    Prior to this, something like over 85% of Business class seats were occupied via reward points or upgrades. Even more so ex WLG/CHC. So while, yes. Some customer who want business class are disadvantaged in some scenarios the other side of the coin has thousands more Y seats occupied likely offsetting the $50,000 mentioned here.

    There are pros and cons to if NZ should have Business on the Tasman and it was looked at when the airline opted for A321's several years ago now.

    The business case still does not support it when there are so many wide-body flights over the Tasman. For example, next week AKL-SYD. There are 3x wide-body flights which is were the majority of the demand is.
     
    zkncj
    Posts: 3805
    Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:09 am

    Zkpilot wrote:
    Has been a long time. Probably should have changed with the A321NEO as they could have installed 8 seats in place of 18 economy seats and had a nice little earner up the front (remember that most business seats sell for around 4-5x the price of economy seats and weight savings too).


    You probably can make more money selling 18x Y seats on the Tasman vs 8 J seats in an A321 - on VA/QF 738 service the J seats typically start around $450/550NZD one way NZ charges slightly more mainly on the hard product, same with QF 787/330 services tend to be an little bit more.

    Say you selling an 18 Y seats at average of $350 - that gains you $6300, if you we're too selling say 8x J seats at $600 that only gains $4800.

    Then to provide J you need an extra FA, provide an meal service & lounge access etc then off course you probably wont sell all of the J seats so will have an bunch of upgrades etc. When you can simply make people buy a seat in Y, and for most of them not even give them an meal.


    NZ6 wrote:
    On the Tasman, this was revamped on it's own but also building on from the Domestic "success". It was aligned with the introduction of the A320 fleet and as the 737-300 and 767-200 aircraft left the fleet. The A320's arrived in an all Economy configuration. It remains this way today with the A320 and A321 fleet.


    The early a320s that went to NZ did come with an 8 seat J cabin that was short-lived, the ones that went directly to SJ came in an all Y config. Later on the SJ one had J seats added so that could operate NZ sectors, SJ sold them at Suite Seats for an extra fee.

     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:12 am

    zkncj wrote:
    Zkpilot wrote:
    Has been a long time. Probably should have changed with the A321NEO as they could have installed 8 seats in place of 18 economy seats and had a nice little earner up the front (remember that most business seats sell for around 4-5x the price of economy seats and weight savings too).


    You probably can make more money selling 18x Y seats on the Tasman vs 8 J seats in an A321 - on VA/QF 738 service the J seats typically start around $450/550NZD one way NZ charges slightly more mainly on the hard product, same with QF 787/330 services tend to be an little bit more.

    Say you selling an 18 Y seats at average of $350 - that gains you $6300, if you we're too selling say 8x J seats at $600 that only gains $4800.

    Then to provide J you need an extra FA, provide an meal service & lounge access etc then off course you probably wont sell all of the J seats so will have an bunch of upgrades etc. When you can simply make people buy a seat in Y, and for most of them not even give them an meal.


    NZ6 wrote:
    On the Tasman, this was revamped on it's own but also building on from the Domestic "success". It was aligned with the introduction of the A320 fleet and as the 737-300 and 767-200 aircraft left the fleet. The A320's arrived in an all Economy configuration. It remains this way today with the A320 and A321 fleet.


    The early a320s that went to NZ did come with an 8 seat J cabin that was short-lived, the ones that went directly to SJ came in an all Y config. Later on the SJ one had J seats added so that could operate NZ sectors, SJ sold them at Suite Seats for an extra fee.



    Oh right, I had a feeling it was wrong but couldn't visualize it so assumed it was wrong.
     
    User avatar
    mercure1
    Posts: 4755
    Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:16 am

    Maybe NZ should adopt the Euro business class model? Block middle seat, offer upgrade meals service etc while having a moveable partition.

    QF still retains premium cabin on its 737s, so could see benefit in NZ offering ateast something instead of losing the business entirely for those that seek premium cabin. The trans-tasman is not exactly a short hop.
    mercure f-wtcc
     
    zkncj
    Posts: 3805
    Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:33 am

    mercure1 wrote:
    Maybe NZ should adopt the Euro business class model? Block middle seat, offer upgrade meals service etc while having a moveable partition.

    QF still retains premium cabin on its 737s, so could see benefit in NZ offering ateast something instead of losing the business entirely for those that seek premium cabin. The trans-tasman is not exactly a short hop.


    They do already sort of offer an Euro Business product on the A321/320 services with the middle seat blocked from sale in the first two rows, under the Works deLuxe branding although the Lounge Access was dropped from this product a couple of years back.

    NZ almost needs to put its A321/320 service under an different brand name on the Tasman/Pacific as they are pretty much an LCC.
     
    NZ6
    Posts: 1552
    Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:08 am

    zkncj wrote:
    mercure1 wrote:
    Maybe NZ should adopt the Euro business class model? Block middle seat, offer upgrade meals service etc while having a moveable partition.

    QF still retains premium cabin on its 737s, so could see benefit in NZ offering ateast something instead of losing the business entirely for those that seek premium cabin. The trans-tasman is not exactly a short hop.


    They do already sort of offer an Euro Business product on the A321/320 services with the middle seat blocked from sale in the first two rows, under the Works deLuxe branding although the Lounge Access was dropped from this product a couple of years back.

    NZ almost needs to put its A321/320 service under an different brand name on the Tasman/Pacific as they are pretty much an LCC.


    I was going to say the same thing, that's Works Deluxe.

    There's some really good thoughts in this post.

    - Should short haul be like Silk Air is to SQ?
    - Would this impact it's "network" via AKL to Australia from North and South America?
    - Should Works Deluxe include lounges
    - Is NZ seen in the market as LCC? I know many talk here like they are, but their brand and trust is valued and seen in high regard? so would they be devaluing themselves?
    - Has this been done before with Freedom?

    I think we need to remind ourselves again, NZ isn't a 5 star Hilton of the Skies, they're not Emirates but the average Kiwi holds them in very high regard and the Seats to Suit approach isn't seen in the same way it is here.
     
    Kiwiandrew
    Posts: 31
    Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:06 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:09 am

    In relation to provincial fares, I think many kiwis have in their heads a figure of what a flight "should" cost, regardless of what the costs are of providing the service. I wonder how well I would get on if I insisted that I ought to be able to purchase a house in Auckland for the same price as it would cost me in Gisborne, because that would be "fairer" ;-)
     
    ZK-NBT
    Posts: 7460
    Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:27 am

    UA101 IAH-SYD diverted for AKL this morning, not sure why arrived around 0700, was due to SYD at 1500, guessing waiting for a new crew, doesn’t look to have departed yet. UA916 AKL-SFO was cancelled 18/1 changes to UA2832 on 19/1 at 1600. I’m guessing crew related.
     
    zkncj
    Posts: 3805
    Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

    Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - January 2020

    Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:31 am

    NZ6 wrote:
    - Should short haul be like Silk Air is to SQ?
    - Would this impact it's "network" via AKL to Australia from North and South America? .


    Think Silk Air is more full service than NZ, which because of this is being folded back into SQ this year with there service levels apparently being brought up to match SQ.

    I think EuroWings would be an closer example to NZ’s product were as they are offering seat / seat + bag / works / business light fare type products around Europe.

    It’s an interesting model that LH takes, that it’s on own branded Short-Haul services are ex-MUC/FRA, everything else is operated by Eurowings. For example if you book with LH on LHR-TXL you are book onto Eurowings into there fare package that includes an bag/snack box.

    The Tasman to America’s primary connections wouldn’t be effected by an NZ LCC apart from OOL/CNS (which are probably more point to point). BNE/SYD/MEL/ADL/PER all have 787/777 services that connect to the long-haul bank.

    NZ6 wrote:
    - Should Works Deluxe include lounges .

    Despite over crowing in the lounges, I think should it’s often around the same price as an cheap J fares on VA/QF.

    NZ6 wrote:

    - Is NZ seen in the market as LCC? I know many talk here like they are, but their brand and trust is valued and seen in high regard? so would they be devaluing themselves?
    - Has this been done before with Freedom?
    .


    Branding as an traditional LCC would defiantly take them back to the Freedom Air days. They would need to go for an more modern approach, more along the lines of say JetBlue or Air Canada Rouge.

    Popular Searches On Airliners.net

    Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

    Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

    Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

    Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

    Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

    Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

    Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

    Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

    Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

    Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

    Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

    Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

    Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

    Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

    Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos