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caribny
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:18 pm

LimaFoxTango wrote:
caribny wrote:

Its not up to TTALPA. CSME rules allow people from any CARICOM nation (except Haiti, The Bahamas and Suriname which arent signatories to this) to work anywhere within CARICOM once they fit certain criteria. Pilots and cabin crews as well as ground staff clearly fit the criteria. TTALPA cannot celebrate the opportunities which LI's demise creates, as BW cherry picks LIs best routes and ignores the others, and think that Bajans, St Lucians or Antiguans will be barred from BW. The debate that I see will be whether these former LI crews will be willing to relocate to POS, with its high crime, away from their relatively low crime ANU and BGI. Especially as I think that BW already has crew shortages, especially for the ATRs.


CSME rules may allow a person to work in POS, but TTALPA's collective agreement with BW may say otherwise.



So when BW doesnt have pilots what do they do? Its fine for now but what when they return to full schedule. Will the planes fly themselves, or will pilots then complain about being over worked? TTALPA will have to think of that.
 
caribny
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:23 pm

baje427 wrote:
If this virus continues as is most in the region will have to go back to that type of living. That being said I suppose BW could lease 2 of LI's ATR's to get the operation going quickly. Does anyone know if the LI crew accepted the pay cut offered by the Antiguan PM?



Hmmm. Telling all of those middle class Bajan kids that they must live like their great grandparents, and give up social media and trips to Miami, and walk a mile to get water. I think that they will find guns and use them first.
 
caribny
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:34 pm

fowlr29 wrote:

Because we are talking about a Trinidadian airline operating flights out of another country. It's like American Airlines setting up base in Jamaica to operate flights to the USA and expecting an American company to hire Jamaican nationals. It just won't happen. We aren't talking about a crew base, we're talking about rotating crew to operate flights. The Trinidad and Tobago Airline Pilots Association will always prefer Trinidadians be hired into a Trinidadian company before anybody else; it's just that simple. As to the authority that the union has in dictating operations in Barbados: the company has a collective agreement with the airline that dictates certain operations, regardless of what country we are talking about. Does it mean LI crew can't get hired by BW? No. But you can bet that there won't be anybody else qualified to fill the position before this will be done.



There is already a notion in CARICOM that T&T gets more than they put in. They dominate the export markets and T&T corporations in times past were buying out regional assets, though as these corporations are less well heeled I suspect that the buying binge has ended. Jamaica threatened to leave CARICOM because of this and other CARICOM nations aren't happy. Mia will promptly tell BW that if they dont hire Bajans then they will be denied route rights to replace LIAT.


LIAT crews (if needed) will be hired on the same basis as former Air Jamaica pilots were. .And if AA set up a base and refused to consider Jamaicans you bet that this base will be denied.
 
fowlr29
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:48 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
So is this all speculation or are we certain there is a clause prohibiting hiring non Trinidad and Tobago people.

What is the situation with the Jamaican operations? I assume those are staffed with some Jamaican nationals at least.

If they open a base in BGI, does not mean these new routes are exclusively flown by people who are allocated to that base? Cant a trini cabin crew somehow be scheduled to fly BGI ANU for example? Seems like more work opportunity to me


Jamaican nationals are allowed to work for BW as the Jamaican government has part ownership. The Jamaican operation has their own union with their own agreements with BW. Furthermore, some Trinidadian 737 pilots have also been temporarily moved to Jamaica to operate flights in the short term (not sure how many).

We aren't talking about a base being opened in BGI. We're talking about planes and pilots being rotated to operate flights out of Barbados. The base will still be in Trinidad, hence the Trinidadian crew. The ATR operation at a full schedule is understaffed. I do see TTALPA and BW coming to some sort of agreement, however my understanding as it stands right now is that preference will be given to Trinidadian/Jamaican nationals but the agreement does not disbar other persons from working. It just means local crew must be sourced first. I do see Gaston Browne making a stink about the situation as the political fallout from Liat going bankrupt for Antigua is significant. We'll see what the future holds.

I am concerned about the viability of such operation in Barbados in the short term however, the restrictions placed on travel currently shouldn't be underestimated, notwithstanding the economic situation as well, and the high cost of an operation such as what is on the table. I've seen first hand how low demand is currently, even for islands that have been closed off to each other in a long time. Routes that had significant local traffic before now are carrying less than 10 people on a consistent basis. SXM to CUR per day averaged just under 100 passengers with two daily flights from Winair. Now, Winair has pulled out of the market, and Jetair flew an empty Fokker 70 back from SXM on Sunday. Times are hard, and the markets are not what they used to be.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:00 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
So is this all speculation or are we certain there is a clause prohibiting hiring non Trinidad and Tobago people.

What is the situation with the Jamaican operations? I assume those are staffed with some Jamaican nationals at least.

If they open a base in BGI, does not mean these new routes are exclusively flown by people who are allocated to that base? Cant a trini cabin crew somehow be scheduled to fly BGI ANU for example? Seems like more work opportunity to me

The difference between the current situation and the Jamaica base is that BW bought JM and therefore acquired a base in KIN. BW isn't buying LI. If they choose to go the route of opening a new base in BGI, they would need approval from TTALPA and likely JALPA as well and the way in which they go about staffing said base would require approval too. This is actually quite similar to when LI proposed to start a base in POS. Both the pilot and flight attendant unions voted to shut down that idea and to this day LI has no crew base in POS.
 
caribbean484
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:57 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:52 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
So is this all speculation or are we certain there is a clause prohibiting hiring non Trinidad and Tobago people.

What is the situation with the Jamaican operations? I assume those are staffed with some Jamaican nationals at least.

If they open a base in BGI, does not mean these new routes are exclusively flown by people who are allocated to that base? Cant a trini cabin crew somehow be scheduled to fly BGI ANU for example? Seems like more work opportunity to me


There is a different contract and representation for the Jamaican Pilots under JAPLA conditions. Hence why:
fowlr29 wrote:
Jamaican nationals are allowed to work for BW as the Jamaican government has part ownership. The Jamaican operation has their own union with their own agreements with BW. Furthermore, some Trinidadian 737 pilots have also been temporarily moved to Jamaica to operate flights in the short term (not sure how many).


I think the agreement is that each pilot group can work in the different bases if there is a temp shortage, but the airline must make every effort to hire from the base country. That is what I was told few years ago when they did negotiations. As far as I remember also under CSME other CAA licenses can work in POS/KIN as long as they are type rates on either the 737/ATR for short term contract.

Now as fowlr29 mentioned, BGI is not a base but a focus city, so most likely for now, POS/KIN crews will be given preferences for bidding on the schedule. Eventually they will have to at least hire crews from BGI/ANU when things return to normal to at least seem to be a Caribbean Carrier and how that is handled will be interesting.

fowlr29 wrote:
I am concerned about the viability of such operation in Barbados in the short term however, the restrictions placed on travel currently shouldn't be underestimated, notwithstanding the economic situation as well, and the high cost of an operation such as what is on the table. I've seen first hand how low demand is currently, even for islands that have been closed off to each other in a long time. Routes that had significant local traffic before now are carrying less than 10 people on a consistent basis. SXM to CUR per day averaged just under 100 passengers with two daily flights from Winair. Now, Winair has pulled out of the market, and Jetair flew an empty Fokker 70 back from SXM on Sunday. Times are hard, and the markets are not what they used to be.


I agree however they are looking to stem cash flow issues, the airline has not been flying for 3 months and paying staff, equipment etc, so they need some type of revenue to and operational consistency to reduce fix cost operational day and manage variable costs.
All ah we is one family
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 971
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:28 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
So is this all speculation or are we certain there is a clause prohibiting hiring non Trinidad and Tobago people.

What is the situation with the Jamaican operations? I assume those are staffed with some Jamaican nationals at least.

If they open a base in BGI, does not mean these new routes are exclusively flown by people who are allocated to that base? Cant a trini cabin crew somehow be scheduled to fly BGI ANU for example? Seems like more work opportunity to me


Trinidad has always been very insular when it comes to hiring "outside" persons. Goes very far back in BWIA days, and Air Jamaica has been much the same way. Things changed slightly since Caribbean Airlines came around, but there's been very few non-Trinidadian pilots. Those who are hired are either married to a Trinidadian or perhaps have been living in Trinidad for years. BW's KIN based are practically all Jamaican and I'm told the KIN and POS base rarely mix.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
Caymanair
Posts: 490
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:53 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:24 pm

fowlr29 wrote:
Caymanair wrote:
The idea that the TTAPLA could dictate how the company operates in Barbados <, particularly with a potential shortage of flight crew, is pretty abhorrent. Why would they be given any authority in the matter?

In broader terms, this approach to solving these issues as individual island governments is damaging. This is not the time to exert your power as the RT Honourable Prime Minister of nothing. The efforts need to be coordinated and seamless, and likely funded from outside. Get rid of the regional taxes... no one argues they are both excessive and a hindrance. devise a single solution for regional airlift. Hint: they already exist in Trinidad and Provo.


Because we are talking about a Trinidadian airline operating flights out of another country. It's like American Airlines setting up base in Jamaica to operate flights to the USA and expecting an American company to hire Jamaican nationals. It just won't happen. We aren't talking about a crew base, we're talking about rotating crew to operate flights. The Trinidad and Tobago Airline Pilots Association will always prefer Trinidadians be hired into a Trinidadian company before anybody else; it's just that simple. As to the authority that the union has in dictating operations in Barbados: the company has a collective agreement with the airline that dictates certain operations, regardless of what country we are talking about. Does it mean LI crew can't get hired by BW? No. But you can bet that there won't be anybody else qualified to fill the position before this will be done.


A Caricom airline operating BGI-ANU or BGI-GEO or BGI-KIN should not be required to staff services with Trinidadian nationals. I know Caricom is many moons behind where it should be integration-wise... but if the TTALPA can dictate that only TnT nationals can fly for BW we have some big problems.

It´s more like Jetblue flying from a SJU base to the USVI but being told they can only use a crew from New York.
Or like Norwegian being forced to employ pilots from Oslo to fly their LGW transatlantic routes.

And while I understand each rock has its own interests, it is pretty antithetical to demand you have an airline based in your own country if the result is zero employment and significantly less service. $15mil is hardly enough cash to be making those types of demands, and the PM surely understands that...
 
fowlr29
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:34 pm

Caymanair wrote:
A Caricom airline operating BGI-ANU or BGI-GEO or BGI-KIN should not be required to staff services with Trinidadian nationals. I know Caricom is many moons behind where it should be integration-wise... but if the TTALPA can dictate that only TnT nationals can fly for BW we have some big problems.


TTALPA already does dictate that only TnT and Jamaican nationals can fly for BW. Or at least are hired before anybody else. And they do already operate BGI - KIN, are you saying that because of that then only Bajan crew can operate BGI - KIN? And they used to operate BGI - GEO in the past as well. That's all what is going to happen going forward.

Another example. Winair used to base an aircraft and crew in Antigua moons back in order to fly routes out of Antigua when they had a government contract. Did they have to hire Antiguan crew to do such? No. And the airline still has rights out of Antigua to do such if it wished.

Caymanair wrote:
It´s more like Jetblue flying from a SJU base to the USVI but being told they can only use a crew from New York.
Or like Norwegian being forced to employ pilots from Oslo to fly their LGW transatlantic routes.


It's not like that at all. JBU has a base in SJU. Norwegian has a base in LGW. BW does not have a base in BGI. Maybe in the future, but it would require working out with the unions.

We're going back and forth here. Debating the morality, or the what is what of a collective agreement between TTALPA, JALPA and BW doesn't make any sense when it is quite plain what the airline has agreed with the unions with regards to what they can and cannot do when it comes to the labor force.
 
Caymanair
Posts: 490
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:53 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:11 pm

fowlr29 wrote:
Caymanair wrote:
A Caricom airline operating BGI-ANU or BGI-GEO or BGI-KIN should not be required to staff services with Trinidadian nationals. I know Caricom is many moons behind where it should be integration-wise... but if the TTALPA can dictate that only TnT nationals can fly for BW we have some big problems.


TTALPA already does dictate that only TnT and Jamaican nationals can fly for BW. Or at least are hired before anybody else. And they do already operate BGI - KIN, are you saying that because of that then only Bajan crew can operate BGI - KIN? And they used to operate BGI - GEO in the past as well. That's all what is going to happen going forward.

Another example. Winair used to base an aircraft and crew in Antigua moons back in order to fly routes out of Antigua when they had a government contract. Did they have to hire Antiguan crew to do such? No. And the airline still has rights out of Antigua to do such if it wished.

Caymanair wrote:
It´s more like Jetblue flying from a SJU base to the USVI but being told they can only use a crew from New York.
Or like Norwegian being forced to employ pilots from Oslo to fly their LGW transatlantic routes.


It's not like that at all. JBU has a base in SJU. Norwegian has a base in LGW. BW does not have a base in BGI. Maybe in the future, but it would require working out with the unions.

We're going back and forth here. Debating the morality, or the what is what of a collective agreement between TTALPA, JALPA and BW doesn't make any sense when it is quite plain what the airline has agreed with the unions with regards to what they can and cannot do when it comes to the labor force.


So they are allowed to hire pilots who aren´t Trinidadian it seems. I was beginning to wonder how they operated in Jamaica with an agreement that only Trinis could fly!

Is it possible to just ignore the unions for commercial purposes? Are there any actual teeth to what they do, past what my be a contractual obligation?

And I am referring to a BGI base.
 
fowlr29
Posts: 32
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:39 pm

Yes. Jamaicans and Trinidadians as they have a base in Kingston and a base in Trinidad.

Good luck ignoring the unions. We've seen how that has gone in the past with pilots calling in sick as a form of industrial dispute. The airline doesn't need a labor dispute on its hands, and neither do their respective governments. Part of BW's financial turnaround plan was to increase employee morale, and it has worked so far. The airline won't ignore the unions' demands; will JALPA and TTALPA disagree with a Bajan base? Who knows at this point. I don't see why they should though.

Even if the unions agree, and the governments involved agree, I don't see a BGI base for some time as it requires more capital to set up a base, and increases your fixed costs substantially. Rotating crew and aircraft seems to be a way to get your toe in the water before putting your entire foot. Will we see Bajan crew being hired if a permanent base is set up in BGI? Most likely. But is a BGI base required? That's another question, and a debate that needs to be had on that. What does a BGI base do for BW that POS can't?

Are BW's current plans for BGI just a way to generate some revenue within the countries whose borders are open while tagging POS onto the sectors when Trinidad reopens? I honestly wouldn't be surprised.
Last edited by fowlr29 on Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:44 pm, edited 6 times in total.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:39 pm

Caymanair wrote:
fowlr29 wrote:
Caymanair wrote:
A Caricom airline operating BGI-ANU or BGI-GEO or BGI-KIN should not be required to staff services with Trinidadian nationals. I know Caricom is many moons behind where it should be integration-wise... but if the TTALPA can dictate that only TnT nationals can fly for BW we have some big problems.


TTALPA already does dictate that only TnT and Jamaican nationals can fly for BW. Or at least are hired before anybody else. And they do already operate BGI - KIN, are you saying that because of that then only Bajan crew can operate BGI - KIN? And they used to operate BGI - GEO in the past as well. That's all what is going to happen going forward.

Another example. Winair used to base an aircraft and crew in Antigua moons back in order to fly routes out of Antigua when they had a government contract. Did they have to hire Antiguan crew to do such? No. And the airline still has rights out of Antigua to do such if it wished.

Caymanair wrote:
It´s more like Jetblue flying from a SJU base to the USVI but being told they can only use a crew from New York.
Or like Norwegian being forced to employ pilots from Oslo to fly their LGW transatlantic routes.


It's not like that at all. JBU has a base in SJU. Norwegian has a base in LGW. BW does not have a base in BGI. Maybe in the future, but it would require working out with the unions.

We're going back and forth here. Debating the morality, or the what is what of a collective agreement between TTALPA, JALPA and BW doesn't make any sense when it is quite plain what the airline has agreed with the unions with regards to what they can and cannot do when it comes to the labor force.


So they are allowed to hire pilots who aren´t Trinidadian it seems. I was beginning to wonder how they operated in Jamaica with an agreement that only Trinis could fly!

Is it possible to just ignore the unions for commercial purposes? Are there any actual teeth to what they do, past what my be a contractual obligation?

And I am referring to a BGI base.

BW cannot open new crew bases without consulting with its unions and that's both the pilot and FA unions (if they plan on opening a new FA base as well). That's standard across any airline anywhere in the world that has a unionized workforce. TTALPA/JALPA could very well have no issue with a new base and sign off without any pushback but they still need to consult with them.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:43 pm

fowlr29 wrote:
Yes. Jamaicans and Trinidadians as they have a base in Kingston and a base in Trinidad.

Good luck ignoring the unions. We've seen how that has gone in the past with pilots calling in sick as a form of industrial dispute. The airline doesn't need a labor dispute on its hands, and neither do their respective governments. Part of BW's financial turnaround plan was to increase employee morale, and it has worked so far. The airline won't ignore the unions' demands; will JALPA and TTALPA disagree with a Bajan base? Who knows at this point. I don't see why they should though.

I don't see a BGI base for some time as it requires more capital to set up a base, and increases your fixed costs substantially. Rotating crew and aircraft seems to be a way to get your toe in the water before putting your entire foot. Will we see Bajan crew being hired if a permanent base is set up in BGI? Most likely. But is a BGI base required? That's another question, and a debate that needs to be had on that. What does a BGI base do for BW that POS base can't?

Is BW's current plans for BGI just a way to generate some revenue within the countries whose borders are open? I honestly wouldn't be surprised.

That's another very good point. A BGI base may not even be necessary based on the number of flights, how they are scheduled/routed, etc. Having a focus city in BGI doesn't necessarily mean that BW must have a crew base there. POS has been a focus city for LI for years and LI has never had a crew base there (attempts to start one years ago were shot down by the unions). On a larger scale, when SJU was a hub for AA, they never maintained a (mainline) crew base there.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:49 pm

See here for more info on LI's attempt to start a POS crew base:

http://www.guardian.co.tt/article-6.2.332925.8d4b79d926

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/power/18526
 
caribny
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:04 pm

fowlr29 wrote:
Caymanair wrote:
A Caricom airline operating BGI-ANU or BGI-GEO or BGI-KIN should not be required to staff services with Trinidadian nationals. I know Caricom is many moons behind where it should be integration-wise... but if the TTALPA can dictate that only TnT nationals can fly for BW we have some big problems.


TTALPA already does dictate that only TnT and Jamaican nationals can fly for BW. Or at least are hired before anybody else. And they do already operate BGI - KIN, are you saying that because of that then only Bajan crew can operate BGI - KIN? And they used to operate BGI - GEO in the past as well. That's all what is going to happen going forward.

Another example. Winair used to base an aircraft and crew in Antigua moons back in order to fly routes out of Antigua when they had a government contract. Did they have to hire Antiguan crew to do such? No. And the airline still has rights out of Antigua to do such if it wished.

Caymanair wrote:
It´s more like Jetblue flying from a SJU base to the USVI but being told they can only use a crew from New York.
Or like Norwegian being forced to employ pilots from Oslo to fly their LGW transatlantic routes.


It's not like that at all. JBU has a base in SJU. Norwegian has a base in LGW. BW does not have a base in BGI. Maybe in the future, but it would require working out with the unions.

We're going back and forth here. Debating the morality, or the what is what of a collective agreement between TTALPA, JALPA and BW doesn't make any sense when it is quite plain what the airline has agreed with the unions with regards to what they can and cannot do when it comes to the labor force.



While we discuss union contracts just remember that there is politics in this. It will be gov'ts who will be involved. They can well decide to deny BW these new routes. BGI is only obligated to offer route rights to KIN and POS. They have no obligation to offer BW route rights to SLU, or SVD and can renege route rights to OGL/GEO.

I know that T&T folks often have the notion that the rest of CARICOM is always "begging". To quote a former PM, using T&T like an ATM card. T&T folks often underestimate the degree to which other Caribbean people don't trust them. It will be not that difficult to mount a "boycott BW" campaign if LIAT pilots begin to complain.. If BW/T&T gets into this whole hog, denying others opportunities it will be seen as the usual T&T behavior. Grabbing everything and denying others opportunity. Jamaica almost left CARICOM for this same reason, and many others also think that too much of the benefit goes to T&T. Note Gaston Browne's response .that T&T already gets too much. BW will get nothing there aside from the routes that they already have to POS, BGI and KIN.


Maybe TTALPA is not interested in BW capitalizing on new opportunities that LIATs demise provides. While BGI doesnt have the problem that ANU has in finding jobs for former LI employees, and many of those based in BGI aren't Bajan, if TTALPA decides on principle that only T&T citizens be considered among a pool of potential hires BGI might decide that maybe Air Antilles is a better option. There is also One Caribbean and Inter Caribbean and BGI might just license them all, making the markets too thin for BWs 68 seat planes.

And this isnt a massive issue for TTALPA as how many Bajan pilots work for LIAT? How many will want to work for BW, with potential of having to live in T&T? A bunch of them are probably old enough to just take their pensions and go home, so we aren't talking about LIATs entire crew. And are there enough T&T citizens available, given that BW is already stretched and there is this pool of pilots already certificated to fly ATRs, only needing to switch from ECCAA to TTCAA?

I can see TTALPAs insistence on T&T citizens, given that BW had begun to contract non CARICOM people, but to exclude CARICOM people is the height of chauvinism, and there is diminished tolerance for that from the rest of CARICOM. This will have to be seen as a CARICOM effort, as with all its warts LIAT was definitely a CARICOM airline with crews representing the diversity of the region.
 
caribny
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:15 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
That's another very good point. A BGI base may not even be necessary based on the number of flights, how they are scheduled/routed, etc. Having a focus city in BGI doesn't necessarily mean that BW must have a crew base there. POS has been a focus city for LI for years and LI has never had a crew base there (attempts to start one years ago were shot down by the unions). On a larger scale, when SJU was a hub for AA, they never maintained a (mainline) crew base there.



LIAT unions shot down the idea of a base there because no one wanted to live in high crime T&T when BGI was seen as safer. BW doesnt need a base in BGI. It will be a focus city just as POS was for LI. Given that 70% of Caribbean travel into BGI is from points other than POS I would expect that not every BW flight running through BGI will start in POS, unless BW plans to have empty seats on that sector.

Btw several T&T citizens worked for LIAT, enjoying all of the privileges that CSME allowed them. I bet many benefitted from working with LI before moving on to other opportunities. And now some think that BW will be allowed to get away with not offering the same? I think not.
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 971
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:17 pm

Caymanair wrote:
fowlr29 wrote:
Caymanair wrote:
A Caricom airline operating BGI-ANU or BGI-GEO or BGI-KIN should not be required to staff services with Trinidadian nationals. I know Caricom is many moons behind where it should be integration-wise... but if the TTALPA can dictate that only TnT nationals can fly for BW we have some big problems.


TTALPA already does dictate that only TnT and Jamaican nationals can fly for BW. Or at least are hired before anybody else. And they do already operate BGI - KIN, are you saying that because of that then only Bajan crew can operate BGI - KIN? And they used to operate BGI - GEO in the past as well. That's all what is going to happen going forward.

Another example. Winair used to base an aircraft and crew in Antigua moons back in order to fly routes out of Antigua when they had a government contract. Did they have to hire Antiguan crew to do such? No. And the airline still has rights out of Antigua to do such if it wished.

Caymanair wrote:
It´s more like Jetblue flying from a SJU base to the USVI but being told they can only use a crew from New York.
Or like Norwegian being forced to employ pilots from Oslo to fly their LGW transatlantic routes.


It's not like that at all. JBU has a base in SJU. Norwegian has a base in LGW. BW does not have a base in BGI. Maybe in the future, but it would require working out with the unions.

We're going back and forth here. Debating the morality, or the what is what of a collective agreement between TTALPA, JALPA and BW doesn't make any sense when it is quite plain what the airline has agreed with the unions with regards to what they can and cannot do when it comes to the labor force.


So they are allowed to hire pilots who aren´t Trinidadian it seems. I was beginning to wonder how they operated in Jamaica with an agreement that only Trinis could fly!

Is it possible to just ignore the unions for commercial purposes? Are there any actual teeth to what they do, past what my be a contractual obligation?

And I am referring to a BGI base.


Your example about B6 needing crew from SJU or USVI is flawed because at the end of the day, they are US citizens and have the right to work for B6. The point is, BW collective agreements with TTALPA and JALPA makes it difficult for BW to hire permanent crew who are not Trinidadian or Jamaican. They may get away with short term contract crew, but these people will never work there permanently.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
baje427
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:28 pm

caribny wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
That's another very good point. A BGI base may not even be necessary based on the number of flights, how they are scheduled/routed, etc. Having a focus city in BGI doesn't necessarily mean that BW must have a crew base there. POS has been a focus city for LI for years and LI has never had a crew base there (attempts to start one years ago were shot down by the unions). On a larger scale, when SJU was a hub for AA, they never maintained a (mainline) crew base there.



LIAT unions shot down the idea of a base there because no one wanted to live in high crime T&T when BGI was seen as safer. BW doesnt need a base in BGI. It will be a focus city just as POS was for LI. Given that 70% of Caribbean travel into BGI is from points other than POS I would expect that not every BW flight running through BGI will start in POS, unless BW plans to have empty seats on that sector.

Btw several T&T citizens worked for LIAT, enjoying all of the privileges that CSME allowed them. I bet many benefitted from working with LI before moving on to other opportunities. And now some think that BW will be allowed to get away with not offering the same? I think not.

Most islands might just be happy to get the service to be honest. With the demise of LI an established carrier like BW is a plus the other demands will probably come with time.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:38 pm

caribny wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
That's another very good point. A BGI base may not even be necessary based on the number of flights, how they are scheduled/routed, etc. Having a focus city in BGI doesn't necessarily mean that BW must have a crew base there. POS has been a focus city for LI for years and LI has never had a crew base there (attempts to start one years ago were shot down by the unions). On a larger scale, when SJU was a hub for AA, they never maintained a (mainline) crew base there.



LIAT unions shot down the idea of a base there because no one wanted to live in high crime T&T when BGI was seen as safer. BW doesnt need a base in BGI. It will be a focus city just as POS was for LI. Given that 70% of Caribbean travel into BGI is from points other than POS I would expect that not every BW flight running through BGI will start in POS, unless BW plans to have empty seats on that sector.

Btw several T&T citizens worked for LIAT, enjoying all of the privileges that CSME allowed them. I bet many benefitted from working with LI before moving on to other opportunities. And now some think that BW will be allowed to get away with not offering the same? I think not.

The official reason they shot down the idea of the POS was the crime rate in T&T. There were several unofficial reasons which arguably may have played a bigger role e.g. the potential for less pilots being required and the loss of guaranteed overnights in POS (crews get more money when they overnight). Regardless, the point being made was that unions would need to be consulted. There is no way around that. Hopefully, if necessary, the unions will provide little pushback.

In terms of the flight routes and whether or not BGI would even require a crew base, BW wouldn't need to route all of its flights POS-BGI-XXX. They could very well route them POS-XXX-BGI or POS-XXX-YYY-BGI. Once route rights are obtained, what would hinder BW from adding a BGI sector to the POS-SLU that it already flies for example? LI has been doing this for years with ANU based crew overnighting in POS for example after flying segments like ANU-SKB-SXM-ANU-SLU-POS or ANU-PTP/DOM-BGI-GND-POS. Circa 2013, ANU based crew used to overnight in SVD after flying ANU-SXM-EIS-DOM-SLU-SVD. And there are many examples of that. In fact, BW has already proposed one island hop route from POS to SJU with a myriad of stops in between. What's to stop them from doing similar milk runs with varying routing all passing through BGI at some point?
 
fowlr29
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Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:40 am

It goes back to whatever rights BW has in the respective islands. I'm not sure as to what they have currently in all of the islands but seeing as they operate POS - ANU - KIN, POS-SXM-KIN, POS-SVD-JFK and used to do POS-BGI-SXM-KIN I don't think route rights are an issue that they need to content with. They either have 5th or 7th freedom to operate within the majority of islands. With 5th/7th freedom routes already granted to BW, a BGI base isn't required, and to be honest, would just add costs that aren't needed. They can already launch flights all through the islands with those rights. I believe the plans to put 2 ATRs there is a short term solution to the airline's cash flow issue while at the same time restoring connectivity to some islands. (If there will be enough demand in this current climate is another issue, and I honestly don't think there will be.)

Will some governments want to revoke those privileges (aka Gaston Browne)? Maybe. But will the rest of the islands follow suit without any other established airline picking up the slack? Maybe not.
 
caribbean484
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:57 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:51 am

Here is an article on the situation of the loans to LI, and part of the IMF loan to BGI was to repay CBD load to LIAT.
https://trinidadexpress.com/business/lo ... 1070a.html

In an interview on Saturday, the chairman of Caricom and Prime Minister of St Vincent and the Grenadines Dr Ralph Gonsalves said he has already reduced his departure tax from US$40 to US$20. Gonsalves said he believes majority State-owned air carrier Caribbean Airlines (CAL) will fill the aviation gap left by the liquidation of LIAT in the region.

What he envisions is a hybrid of regional carriers, one main airline, CAL, and several smaller ones, including the Turks and Caicos-based InterCaribbean, SVG Air and OneCaribbean, both of which operate out of St Vincent.

CAL, Gonsalves had said, can comfortably handle at least 80 percent of the routes with the smaller airlines filling in the gap.


So in essence they knew that the high taxes were killing intraregional travel, and only because LI is out of business, they are now looking to reduce those taxes.

fowlr29 wrote:
It goes back to whatever rights BW has in the respective islands. I'm not sure as to what they have currently in all of the islands but seeing as they operate POS - ANU - KIN, POS-SXM-KIN, POS-SVD-JFK and used to do POS-BGI-SXM-KIN I don't think route rights are an issue that they need to content with. They either have 5th or 7th freedom to operate within the majority of islands. With 5th/7th freedom routes already granted to BW, a BGI base isn't required, and to be honest, would just add costs that aren't needed.


If I remembered correctly, BWIA had a number of 7th freedom flights from BGI to the rest of the eastern Caribbean. The only issue was whether CAL inherited those flights from BWIA, and the way talk is going it looks like they are going to exercise those flights.
The reason the airline bought the 4 additional ATRs is to compete directly with LI and make BGI another focus city, as clearly shown in their filing with the USDOT. Now that LI is out the remaining two will have to come whenever the borders are reopened to compensate for the loss of seats the region experiences. Given that the Chairman has written to the regional governments stating that they will take up most of the routes LI used to ply, it would eventually mean more pilots have to come on stream. IMO they will have to hire some guys from LIAT to fill the void.
All ah we is one family
 
caribbean484
Posts: 901
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:15 am

United also sent a 788 to GEO today to repatriate US citizens in Guyana

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL ... /SYCJ/KIAH

Some more Covid related Caribbean news
Aeromexico is restarting flight to the DR as they reopen.
https://a21.com.mx/aerolineas/2020/07/1 ... dominicana

Air France is restarting flights tot the Caribbean with SXM and PUJ first.
https://www.caribjournal.com/2020/07/12 ... e-flights/
All ah we is one family
 
caribny
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:51 am

fowlr29 wrote:
I

Will some governments want to revoke those privileges (aka Gaston Browne)? Maybe. But will the rest of the islands follow suit without any other established airline picking up the slack? Maybe not.






So folks really need to stop thinking that BW is the only game in town. In fact Mia might license a whole bunch of them as she keeps on talking about "6 airlines". She already allowed that mysterious 747 to park up at BGI, so One Caribbean is definitely in the running for something. Who do you think will fare better. One Caribbean with 4 flights daily with a mix of 30 and 19 seaters, or BW with just 2 flights, and with probably higher overheads. SVD will definitely drive a hard bargain for his carriers on those Windward Island BGI routes. One Caribbean will soon have 3 30 seaters plus some smaller planes and SVG Air will also be in the mix.

What BW is best positioned to do they aren't going to do and that is to replicate LIATs seamless SJU to GEO service through their ANU and BGI hubs. Cherry picking the routes closest to BGI means that anyone can get the business. Flying high frequency GEO to SXM, or SVD to EIS, or SLU to SKB, is what LIAT offered and there is no guarantee now that anyone else will. So I dont know that cherry picking the best routes is what will make BW indispensable.
 
fowlr29
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:43 pm

caribny wrote:
fowlr29 wrote:
I

Will some governments want to revoke those privileges (aka Gaston Browne)? Maybe. But will the rest of the islands follow suit without any other established airline picking up the slack? Maybe not.






So folks really need to stop thinking that BW is the only game in town. In fact Mia might license a whole bunch of them as she keeps on talking about "6 airlines". She already allowed that mysterious 747 to park up at BGI, so One Caribbean is definitely in the running for something. Who do you think will fare better. One Caribbean with 4 flights daily with a mix of 30 and 19 seaters, or BW with just 2 flights, and with probably higher overheads. SVD will definitely drive a hard bargain for his carriers on those Windward Island BGI routes. One Caribbean will soon have 3 30 seaters plus some smaller planes and SVG Air will also be in the mix.

What BW is best positioned to do they aren't going to do and that is to replicate LIATs seamless SJU to GEO service through their ANU and BGI hubs. Cherry picking the routes closest to BGI means that anyone can get the business. Flying high frequency GEO to SXM, or SVD to EIS, or SLU to SKB, is what LIAT offered and there is no guarantee now that anyone else will. So I dont know that cherry picking the best routes is what will make BW indispensable.


I agree with you. I don't think BW is going to be the true winner in the EC. Yes their proposed milk run service up the islands will allow BW to show their presence in more Caribbean markets but that's about it. Same goes for Air Antilles/Winair, maybe a couple more markets, but not complete domination. In my opinion the real winner is going to be InterCaribbean and One Caribbean.
 
2travel2know2
Posts: 2952
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:21 pm

caribbean484 wrote:
United also sent a 788 to GEO today to repatriate US citizens in Guyana

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL ... /SYCJ/KIAH
Could that have been an humanitarian flight by BW?

Some more Covid related Caribbean news
Aeromexico is restarting flight to the DR as they reopen.
https://a21.com.mx/aerolineas/2020/07/1 ... dominicana
Seems that AM wants to cash as much as it can on its SDQ-MEX route before CM re-open its hub for connecting passengers.

Air France is restarting flights tot the Caribbean with SXM and PUJ first.
https://www.caribjournal.com/2020/07/12 ... e-flights/
One could guess that AF isn't really re-starting flights to The Caribbean as it's more likely AF never stopped flying from CDG/ORY to CAY, PTP and FDF.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
fowlr29
Posts: 32
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:33 pm

2travel2know2 wrote:
Air France is restarting flights tot the Caribbean with SXM and PUJ first.
https://www.caribjournal.com/2020/07/12 ... lights/One could guess that AF isn't really re-starting flights to The Caribbean as it's more likely AF never stopped flying from CDG/ORY to CAY, PTP and FDF.


You are correct. They never stopped flying to CAY, PTP and FDF from CDG, but they did stop flying to other places (mainly Punta Cana, and Paris Orly to the Caribbean). They stopped for a period of time to SXM, but they started flying to SXM commercially since the beginning of July, with scheduled repatriation flights since June.
 
baje427
Posts: 801
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:42 pm

I heard on the news today that BGI will be the hub for One Caribbean Airlines.
 
LimaFoxTango
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:59 pm

baje427 wrote:
I heard on the news today that BGI will be the hub for One Caribbean Airlines.


What alot of people may not realise is that OCL also applied for an AOC under Barbados CAD regulations. They seem to be shifting away somewhat from their ECCAA AOC. The BCAD is in shambles and there will be very little oversight of their operations. I hope that doesn't come back to haunt them.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:46 pm

Winair has from today (14 July) discontinued flights to Aruba and Curaçao citing the effects of the Covid-19 crisis. Winair will continue to serve Saba, Statia, St. Barth and Antigua from St. Maarten.

All employees have suffered a 25% pay reduction since April.
 
fowlr29
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:17 pm

Employees are expecting further cuts and/or job losses. It has already been decided that one DHC6 will be sent back to the lessor in Canada. Airline is in a terrible financial position as they haven't gotten funding since the pandemic hit. SXM government does not have funding available for the airline as they themselves are broke. Winair has always relied on cash flow to operate, and was only now on track for the first proper year of service since Hurricane Irma and Maria in 2017. It's a sad situation especially as the airline was on the brink of having enough cash built up for expansion plans.
 
fowlr29
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:57 pm

https://news784.com/local-news/plans-un ... B3BDYVUNl4

InterCaribbean has applied for rights into St. Vincent and the Grenadines. No comment was made on the rights that they are requesting, destinations or anything otherwise. Just that a request was made to launch air services to SVD.
 
caribny
Posts: 449
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:02 pm

baje427 wrote:
I heard on the news today that BGI will be the hub for One Caribbean Airlines.



Quite correct. BGI gets more out of being an OCL hub then being a BW focus point, plus I am not sure that these islands trust BW anyway. Which isnt to say that BW is going to be allowed to exercise the routes that they already have and maybe be allowed a few more, but I dont think BGI will want all their eggs in one basket.
 
caribny
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:03 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Winair has from today (14 July) discontinued flights to Aruba and Curaçao citing the effects of the Covid-19 crisis. Winair will continue to serve Saba, Statia, St. Barth and Antigua from St. Maarten.

All employees have suffered a 25% pay reduction since April.



Inter Caribbean might get the last laugh if WM collapses.
 
caribny
Posts: 449
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:46 am

Interesting that Inter Caribbean seems to be emphasizing the southern Caribbean where there will be intense competition between OCL and BW and not the northern Caribbean where they will be alone. LI is gone and WM is barely there.
 
caribny
Posts: 449
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:46 am

duplication.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:17 am

BW is restarting ops to ANU from July 25 with 2w (Sa, Sun) service KIN-ANU-BGI-ANU-KIN.
 
baje427
Posts: 801
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:17 pm

Based on this article it seems JY will also be looking to use BGI as a hub. Interesting times ahead.

https://barbadostoday.bb/2020/07/17/int ... der-reach/
 
windian425
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:21 pm

Looks like CAL will be the first to start operations out of BGI. Starting 22 July, 2020 CAL will operate BGI - SVD and BGI - GND with an ATR. I suspect the aircraft will also be based in BGI or at least overnight in BGI with a 8:00am departure on Wednesdays and Sundays.
 
caribny
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:25 pm

baje427 wrote:
Based on this article it seems JY will also be looking to use BGI as a hub. Interesting times ahead.

https://barbadostoday.bb/2020/07/17/int ... der-reach/


This to my point that if TTALPA thought that BW could grab hold of LIAT routes, but leave LIAT employees on the breadline others would squeeze them out. Inter Caribbean doesnt use ATRs, so shouldn't be the choice to absorb LIAT cockpit and cabin crews.

And yes BGI has one of the the largest O&D in the southern Caribbean and is better located to serve as a hub than is POS. The latter at the extreme south, is capable of only O&D and feeding GEO/OGL. and PBM to points north, so BW would have had to use BGI as a focus city.

OCL and Inter Caribbean have smaller planes so I think just pushed out BW from a major role at BGI, especially as travel numbers are going to be lower for the foreseeable future. That is unless BW comes up with something new.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:10 pm

Winair has indefinitely suspended its flights to Statia as the Statia government has elevated St. Maarten from a low-risk country to a medium-risk country. You have to wonder for how much longer Winair can survive.
 
fowlr29
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:02 pm

I guess only time will tell. What Winair needs is for SXM to reopen to the United States for the St Barths connections. Hopefully the government sticks to the August 1st date that has been set this time. It'll mean no more flights to Saba, as the Saba governor will follow what Statia has done when SXM opens to the US, however more passengers are expected to transit to/from SBH than passengers going to/from Saba.
 
caribbean484
Posts: 901
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:15 am

windian425 wrote:
Looks like CAL will be the first to start operations out of BGI. Starting 22 July, 2020 CAL will operate BGI - SVD and BGI - GND with an ATR. I suspect the aircraft will also be based in BGI or at least overnight in BGI with a 8:00am departure on Wednesdays and Sundays.


First of many to be announced as borders reopen, and yes the ATR will be based in BGI.

2travel2know2 wrote:
Some more Covid related Caribbean news Aeromexico is restarting flight to the DR as they reopen.https://a21.com.mx/aerolineas/2020/07/1 ... dominicana Seems that AM wants to cash as much as it can on its SDQ-MEX route before CM re-open its hub for connecting passengers.


I suspect that is what is taking place. We are seeing where in the US LCC are taking advantage of the holes left by the "big 3", and even AA now going again into a partnership with B6. Unfortunately, this pandemic is leaving airlines with a weak balance sheet in a terrible position.


Bahamasair ‘struggling’, says airline’s chairman
Having already burned through $10.5 million during the three months it was grounded and with a “very, very low” load factor since resuming operations, Bahamasair Chairman Tommy Turnquest said the airline needs to be more open about the financial challenges it’s now facing.

Bahamasair began commercial operations last month with regular daily flights into Orlando and Fort Lauderdale, but Turnquest said given the low passenger numbers on those flights, the airline is considering reducing its flight schedule.

https://thenassauguardian.com/2020/07/1 ... -chairman/


Grenada to Reduce Airline Ticket Taxes to Encourage Regional Travel
Speaking on the pending liquidation of regional carrier LIAT, Mitchell said that there are other airlines which will be filling the void left by LIAT which suspended its service in April after most regional states shut down airports as part of measures aimed at containing COVID-19..

LIAT which has served the region for more than 40 years has been experiencing financial challenges before the onset of COVID-19 and the closure of the airports around the regions placed in the airline states in a more difficult position.

https://www.caribbeannationalweekly.com ... al-travel/

Air Canada Resumes Service To St Vincent On July 23rd
Air Canada which suspended flights to St Vincent and the Grenadines on March 26th due to the Covid-19 pandemic will resume service on July 23rd 2020.

In the wake of the federal government’s global travel advisory on COVID- 19, Air Canada temporarily suspended flights to a number of destinations including SVG.

The airline said it will continue to monitor the situation closely in consultation with the Public Health Agency of Canada, Transport Canada, and Global Affairs and will adjust its schedule going forward.

https://news784.com/local-news/air-cana ... july-23rd/
All ah we is one family
 
Caymanair
Posts: 490
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:53 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:44 am

The Cayman government has provided much more information today regarding reopening. There is a committee formed to guide the reopening of the borders which has been active for a couple of months made up of Cayman Airways, CAA, the airport authority, the ministry of health, the health services authority, hazard management, ministry of tourism, department of tourism and others, and supported by private sector, PAHO, Public Health England, and others. The committee has also been able to observe what has happened in other countries. They have stressed that they are taking a conservative approach based on the health expertise as a matter of protecting our status as one of the safest places from Coronavirus.

Firstly, the borders will be reopened in a careful and phased manner beginning 1st September. They are envisioning at least 6 months from that point before ´normal´ commercial services resume.

As of 1st September:
    All visitors (initially just returning residents, international students, property owners, business owners, and critical staff likely) will be required to make an application 72 hours before they begin travelling which must include a negative Covid test. It will be online and sounds like theyre developing an app as well. This process will be managed bt Travel Time, which is the makeshift agency that has been managing requests for travel over the last few months.
    On arrival, everyone will be fitted with with a bio sticker which monitors temperature and respiratory data, among other things. If anything concerning pops up it is transmitted instantly to the local health authority and they can step in.
    You will be required to stay at your home or hotel for 5 days after arrival and take another test. The biosticker will also be able to alert authorities if you leave your area. Once you test negative locally, you can roam around as you please but must keep the biosticker for another week.
    Cayman Airways will be permitted to fly, as well as other repatriation flights such as the air bridge on BA to LHR and points beyond. It does not appear other airlines will be permitted on a regular scheduled basis or if they are they will be very heavily restricted. I note they announced repatriation and airbridge flights through to end of September, more evidence regular services will not be resumed until year end.
    Capacity at the airport will be revised to ´de-peak´arrivals and departures.
    Arrivals will be required to pay a flat fee per head (a couple hundred dollars likely) to cover the cost of local testing and monitoring.
    As of Sunday, travel between the islands will once again be permitted without the need to quarantine or take a test.

Cruise ships are unlikely to be permitted until well into 2021.
 
caribny
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:56 pm

fowlr29 wrote:
I guess only time will tell. What Winair needs is for SXM to reopen to the United States for the St Barths connections. Hopefully the government sticks to the August 1st date that has been set this time. It'll mean no more flights to Saba, as the Saba governor will follow what Statia has done when SXM opens to the US, however more passengers are expected to transit to/from SBH than passengers going to/from Saba.



Can WM get help from the Dutch gov't once borders reopen? Has there been increased levels of infection in SXM? SXM is isolated from the US so it cannot be fears of exposure to disorderly Americans, a few of which are causing problems in some islands by going into places that they arent allowed, or not observing local safety protocols.

The benefit of not being independent is that "mummy" can help you when you get into difficulties. If she doesnt then why keep the connection. WM is vital for connectivity within the Dutch Caribbean. If they collapse who is there to fill the gap once borders reopen?
 
fowlr29
Posts: 32
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:22 pm

Financial assistance from the Netherlands isn't guaranteed. I do foresee the Dutch providing assistance in the form of a loan, it just hasn't reached as yet (2/3 months more I think). There is however a lot of politics in this; WM is 92% owned by the government of SXM, and 8% by Holland. SXM hasn't given anything (besides some payroll support that has now run out), so Holland will be raising questions about this. Why should we give you assistance when the majority shareholder isn't? The problems that Winair are facing is however more of an immediate one. The airline won't go under, but jobs are at risk in the short term. The airline is flying right now, and carrying a decent amount of people to St. Barths on the 3 days a week that AF comes however the revenue generated from those flights aren't enough to cover the overheads of the company. The DHC leases are incredibly expensive.

SXM is isolated from the US for now (in theory). In practicality it isn't as St. Barths is open to the US, and St. Martin (french side) is open to St. Barths. There is one active case in SXM from local transmission. The new case is why Statia has moved SXM back in to the medium category. That being said, Statia and Saba are currently not WM's breadwinners (flights were only going three times a week twice a day). Statia was going to block SXM anyway, along with Saba, when SXM opens to the US on August 1st, but the increased transit passengers to SBH from the US will be way more than enough to offset this.

I would however like to see WM start connecting some of the other islands to make up for the loss of revenue in other markets. WM has rights out of SKB, DOM, SLU, ANU, GND, SVD. It's time to start branching out, but the airline's risk tolerance right now is just so low. Should WM have an agreement with SVG to connect the Caribbean on routes that larger aircraft can't? I believe so. Let WM connect islands that larger aircraft wouldn't be able to sustain north of DOM/SLU, connecting passengers in DOM/SLU to SVG's Southern Caribbean network. 19 seat Twin Otters on low frequency but multiple markets, utilizing SXM's European and North American connections for transit, together with O&D passengers throughout the Northern Caribbean could work in my opinion. Connecting with SVG would make it even more feasible.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:56 am

BW restarts ops to SVD and GND out of BGI on July 22.

4x weekly (Mon, Tue, Fri, Sat) BGI-SVD-GND-BGI
2x weekly (Sun, Wed) BGI-GND-SVD-BGI
 
danipawa
Posts: 467
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:57 pm

Barbados Bank wants back 3 Liat ATR:

https://268today.com/business/apparent- ... AbUECByXhs
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1143
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:12 pm

CDB has the legal right to repossess the three aircraft as the mortgage payments have not been made. The intervention by the Antigua governemnt will serve only to alienate the bank, and guess who will no doubt approach the bank later for further loans.
 
caribny
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:00 am

https://268today.com/business/reorganiz ... 8-million/

Gaston Browne is living in a fantasy. At a time of diminished travel he is actually contemplating extra regional service for LIAT. Why not furnish a plan to show how an airline, which has lost money for most of its 64 years in existence, can become viable on its Eastern Caribbean routes. Which routes will it keep? Which will it drop if there are no MRGs? What planes will it use, and if there is a refleet, who will pay for this? How long will all of this reorganization take, and how will LI survive in a more competitive environment?

The regional private sector is going to be no more interested in investing in LI as they already had to write off previous investment in the airline. In addition many of these companies are almost as worried about their future viability as are the gov'ts due to the negative economic impacts of COVID 19.


The reality is that there are 3 viable alternatives to LI, and these are BW, OCL, and JY. WM can also boost its service on LI routes in the northern Caribbean. Either WM or JY can add a ANU SKB and an ANU DOM route, and I believe that WM already has these route rights. Its 19 seater planes are ideally suited. JY might even be able to restart its USVI routes, with feed through EIS, now that LI is off STT.

At some point Gaston has to understand that its been real and that legacy carriers fail. Where are BWIA, or Air Jamaica today? Yes we will miss LI because it offered seamless service throughout the entire Eastern Caribbean. One could have flown from GND to SJU, GEO to SXM, SLU to SKB on one airline. These routes probably too thin to merit direct flights and we have yet to see whether BW, OCL, JY and WM will be willing and/or able to coordinate their services to replace LI. This through coordinating schedules and setting up code share arrangements to allow integrated ticketing and baggage handling.

An ideal will be BW running its larger planes on the denser more profitable routes, with lower frequency flights linking islands in the north to those in the south. But then working with JY, OCL and/or WM to have their planes service the thinner routes, or to provide higher frequencies even on the heavier routes like BGI SVD. This (SXM being ideal as we know that ANU will not be available once Gaston collapses into a tantrum).

Gaston needs to be careful when he makes threats about litigation being directed to gov'ts by creditors, staff and customers. After all if BGI sells their shares to ANU for $1 then ANU becomes the biggest shareholder, and which gov't will be liable now? By being nasty each gov't will compensate their own nationals and CDB plays hard ball and I see ANU being the biggest loser.

Even Rowley would have been more tactical in dealing with other CARICOM heads. He has the biggest economy in CARICOM and (together with Jamaica) the CARICOM nation with some global clout. And he wouldnt do this. Why does Gaston think that he can insult Mia and then have her then have to convince her electorate that sinking MORE money into LIAT makes sense when other airlines have already indicated an interest in these routes. Gaston needs to understand that BGI does NOT need LI as all of its routes to that island are profitable, meaning that there will be others willing to take over without BGI having to spend a cent.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:34 pm

The Bahamas is banning American tourists effective July 22

https://thepointsguy.com/news/americans ... ronavirus/

I’ve heard this is being considered in SVD as well. Obviously with only 1-2 fights from the USA per week, it will have less impact there if implemented.

Update:

A better link which explains that the Bahamas is only allowing commercial flights from the UK, EU and Canada. Americans are technically not banned as visitors are allowed on private/charter flights.

https://www.bahamas.com/tourism-reopening

This would also affect BW’s restart of service to NAS from KIN.

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