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oldJoe
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue May 12, 2020 9:50 pm

scbriml wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
Airbus is also only at +269 this year


Where do you get 269 from? Airbus O&D spreadsheet for April shows 365 gross orders and 66 cancellations, for a net total of 299.


Bean counter "scbriml" at work. Joke aside , I read the same numbers
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue May 12, 2020 10:20 pm

oldJoe wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
Airbus is also only at +269 this year


Where do you get 269 from? Airbus O&D spreadsheet for April shows 365 gross orders and 66 cancellations, for a net total of 299.


Bean counter "scbriml" at work. Joke aside , I read the same numbers


Hey, if you're going to use numbers, then at least make the effort to use the right ones. :thumbsup:
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue May 12, 2020 11:08 pm

Recall near the end of the A380 there were 3 orders I recall for like 25 planes that suddenly vanished. It took like 5 years for the Kingfisher planes to finally be dropped from the books.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed May 13, 2020 8:23 am

scbriml wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
Airbus is also only at +269 this year


Where do you get 269 from? Airbus O&D spreadsheet for April shows 365 gross orders and 66 cancellations, for a net total of 299.

My mistake, I downloaded the April update for January instead of the April numbers. It's indeed 299.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed May 13, 2020 8:53 am

Boeing is booking cancellations whereas Airbus is predominantly acknowledging "deferrals" - which may morph into cancellations (ntu) in due time.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed May 13, 2020 9:01 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
Boeing is booking cancellations whereas Airbus is predominantly acknowledging "deferrals" - which may morph into cancellations (ntu) in due time.


Airbus is booking cancellations and it should be remembered that the vast majority of Boeing's cancellations are for MAX where the customer is presumably able to cancel at no cost because of the grounding. So where it's easy for the airline/lessor, they are cancelling, otherwise deferrals (no need for " ") kick the can down the road.
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed May 13, 2020 1:47 pm

FlightGlobal reports

Deliveries across the two mainline aircraft manufacturers’ production lines fell by more than half during the first four months to less than 200 aircraft, as the coronavirus pandemic began to have a major effect.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/orders-and ... 53.article

Seems it will get worse before it gets better. Seems cutting production by 1/3rd may not be enough given customers are accepting less than half relative to last year's production.
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Geoff1947
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed May 13, 2020 2:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
FlightGlobal reports

Deliveries across the two mainline aircraft manufacturers’ production lines fell by more than half during the first four months to less than 200 aircraft, as the coronavirus pandemic began to have a major effect.

Ref: https://www.flightglobal.com/orders-and ... 53.article

Seems it will get worse before it gets better. Seems cutting production by 1/3rd may not be enough given customers are accepting less than half relative to last year's production.


Interesting interpretation. As Boeing and Airbus were unable to produce the aircraft we don’t know whether the airlines would have accepted them or not.

Geoff
 
Someone83
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:02 pm

Zero new orders for Airbus in May, but neither was there any cancellations
 
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william
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:19 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/news/airbus-warns ... 23367.html

Airbus may sue if airlines do not take aircraft ordered. We knew it would get messy, Now claims of a glut of aircraft on the market and Boeing and Airbus led to it.


"Faury told Politico that some airlines, which he did not identify, had refused to take calls at the height of the crisis, but that he hoped for a compromise.

"It will remain, I hope, the exception because we always try to find a different route than going to court," Faury said.

"But if and when airlines - and it's happening - have no other choice than fully defaulting and not proposing something better than nothing, or are not willing to do it, then (lawsuits) will happen."

Industry sources said such public warnings are rare in the tight-knit aviation market and could backfire.

But they said the disruption is so great that Airbus is adopting a more aggressive stance, bracing itself for a repeat of turmoil over the 2001 bankruptcies of Swissair and Sabena.

It has sent out dozens of default notices to airlines in a step that can lead to lawsuits but undermine relations, the sources said. Some airlines have responded angrily in private."

"Several financiers said that manufacturers, while justified in protecting positions ahead of further airline bankruptcies, also partly have themselves to blame for producing too much.

"Many observers already believed before the crisis that too many airplanes were produced for too many airlines that did not have the solid business model and financial strength to deliver the growth embedded in their order books," said Bertrand Grabowski, an aviation banker turned independent adviser."
 
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DBCoop3r
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Fri Jun 05, 2020 5:27 pm

william wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/airbus-warns-may-sue-airlines-150623367.html
Airbus may sue if airlines do not take aircraft ordered. We knew it would get messy, Now claims of a glut of aircraft on the market and Boeing and Airbus led to it.


I find it amazing that an airline, a major corporation presumably, would plug their ears, close their eyes, and say "lallalalalala" and hope Airbus just goes away? What airlines' management would ever do that? They didn't think to call Airbus and just say "hey, you know what's going on, can we hold off a couple months until the smoke clears?" I can't imagine Airbus wouldn't work with them given the circumstances.
 
smartplane
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:14 pm

william wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/airbus-warns-may-sue-airlines-150623367.html

Airbus may sue if airlines do not take aircraft ordered. We knew it would get messy, Now claims of a glut of aircraft on the market and Boeing and Airbus led to it.


"Faury told Politico that some airlines, which he did not identify, had refused to take calls at the height of the crisis, but that he hoped for a compromise.

"It will remain, I hope, the exception because we always try to find a different route than going to court," Faury said.

"But if and when airlines - and it's happening - have no other choice than fully defaulting and not proposing something better than nothing, or are not willing to do it, then (lawsuits) will happen."

Industry sources said such public warnings are rare in the tight-knit aviation market and could backfire.

But they said the disruption is so great that Airbus is adopting a more aggressive stance, bracing itself for a repeat of turmoil over the 2001 bankruptcies of Swissair and Sabena.

It has sent out dozens of default notices to airlines in a step that can lead to lawsuits but undermine relations, the sources said. Some airlines have responded angrily in private."

Several financiers said that manufacturers, while justified in protecting positions ahead of further airline bankruptcies, also partly have themselves to blame for producing too much.

Double standards. Sales generally only go unconditional when financiers approve credit, so seems a bit tough blaming the OEM's for accepting orders (other than where A & B have directly or indirectly financed). Without finance the aircraft wouldn't have been built.
 
Jack
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:55 pm

From a quick check on the Airbus info not just no new orders or cancellations but not changes to existing orders. Usually the are multiples moves A320 to A321 etc.

Indigo get the prize for best customer 6 X 320 family deliveries although as with other deliveries a lot of them are still in Europe. Just shows up Air Asia .......
 
ShamrockBoi330
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:13 pm

9 new orders for BA in May, 14 more MAX cancellations, 80 added to the ASC adjustment as questionable.

4 deliveries, but no passenger aircraft deliveries in May. When was the last time that happened for BA?

https://ca.reuters.com/article/business ... AKBN23G277

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... delivered/
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:27 pm

Only Freighter orders in May for Boeing

FedEx Express 767-300F 1x
Unidentified Customer(s) 767-300F 5x
Unidentified Customer(s) 777F x2
UPS USA North America 747-8F 1x

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:41 pm

737 MAX cancelations/changes

Aviation Capital Group: -3x
CIT Aerospace LLC: -1x
GECAS: -4x
Unidentified Customer: -18x
SMBC Aviation Capital : +12x

And large cargo cancellations:

Volga-Dnepr UK Ltd
747-8F -1x
777F -2x

Boeing resold these Volga-Dnepr / AirBridgeCargo frames.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:44 pm

Wait. Didn't I see a heated discussion on here to the effect that 747-8s could never again be ordered? Never. That's it. Kaput. Done. Finito.

And that some supplier wasn't making any more parts, and, as we hear all the time as regards the 757, that "the tooling had been destroyed"?

So it's soooo interesting that UPS was able to order a brand-spankin'-new 747-8 today. Huh.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:48 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Wait. Didn't I see a heated discussion on here to the effect that 747-8s could never again be ordered? Never. That's it. Kaput. Done. Finito.

And that some supplier wasn't making any more parts, and, as we hear all the time as regards the 757, that "the tooling had been destroyed"?

So it's soooo interesting that UPS was able to order a brand-spankin'-new 747-8 today. Huh.

Nothing to see here, they took a delivery slot that was cancelled by Volga-Dnepr / AirBridgeCargo.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:49 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Wait. Didn't I see a heated discussion on here to the effect that 747-8s could never again be ordered? Never. That's it. Kaput. Done. Finito.

And that some supplier wasn't making any more parts, and, as we hear all the time as regards the 757, that "the tooling had been destroyed"?

So it's soooo interesting that UPS was able to order a brand-spankin'-new 747-8 today. Huh.


The UPS order is most likely the aircraft that was resold from Volga-Dnepr. See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1446941

So Boeing doesn't have to assemble the aircraft because it was built some time ago.
Good moaning!
 
Bradlee102896
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:20 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
Momo1435 wrote:
Only Freighter orders in May for Boeing

FedEx Express 767-300F 1x
Unidentified Customer(s) 767-300F 5x
Unidentified Customer(s) 777F x2
UPS USA North America 747-8F 1x

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries


I wonder who the 5 Unidentified Orders for the 767-300F might be? Not many operators come to mind unless it’s UPS.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:20 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Wait. Didn't I see a heated discussion on here to the effect that 747-8s could never again be ordered? Never. That's it. Kaput. Done. Finito.

And that some supplier wasn't making any more parts, and, as we hear all the time as regards the 757, that "the tooling had been destroyed"?

So it's soooo interesting that UPS was able to order a brand-spankin'-new 747-8 today. Huh.


It’s more a paperwork exercise than a “real” order. You’ll notice that Boeing also booked one 748F cancellation. This frame was already in production for AirBridgeCargo when I toured the Boeing factory last October. After the dispute between Volga Dnepr (ABC’s parent company) and Boeing, this frame has been transferred to UPS.

Airbus did a similar thing in March in transferring 10 LATAM A350 orders to Delta.
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Stitch
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:23 pm

Bradlee102896 wrote:
I wonder who the 5 Unidentified Orders for the 767-300F might be? Not many operators come to mind unless it’s UPS.


Dominic Gates of The Seattle Times believes they are for UPS.
 
jbs2886
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:29 pm

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
9 new orders for BA in May, 14 more MAX cancellations, 80 added to the ASC adjustment as questionable.

4 deliveries, but no passenger aircraft deliveries in May. When was the last time that happened for BA?

https://ca.reuters.com/article/business ... AKBN23G277

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... delivered/


Any idea who the ASC adjustments are for?
 
Someone83
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:50 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
SMBC Aviation Capital : +12x


What is this being changed from? Or should it say -12?
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:25 am

Someone83 wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
SMBC Aviation Capital : +12x


What is this being changed from? Or should it say -12?[/quote
It's an identification of several previously unidentified top-up orders.
 
WestWing
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:58 pm

scbriml wrote:
You’ll notice that Boeing also booked one 748F cancellation. This frame was already in production for AirBridgeCargo when I toured the Boeing factory last October. After the dispute between Volga Dnepr (ABC’s parent company) and Boeing, this frame has been transferred to UPS


According to Dominic Gates, yes the cancelled ABC frame was transferred to UPS, but UPS, while adding this one, also cancelled one of their own orders. So, UPS will still receive the same number of 747-8Fs that they had planned to, and the overall orders for the 747-8F decreased by one in this exercise.

Looks like the ABC frame went to Portland for repainting into UPS livery.
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concordeforever
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:45 pm

Did Boeing offer UPS a deal to take this already built frame in exchange for cancelling a later order, meaning the line will close 2 months earlier than previously planned, presumably saving money?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:50 pm

concordeforever wrote:
Did Boeing offer UPS a deal to take this already built frame in exchange for cancelling a later order, meaning the line will close 2 months earlier than previously planned, presumably saving money?


Perhaps. But UPS might take their "cancelled" frame as well as the three others Volga-Dnepr have walked away from.

We have a thread discussing this at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1446803 so I suggest those interested in the 747's denouement check it out and leave this thread for orders.
 
LJ
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:59 am

Already mentioned in another thread, Norwegian cancels its remaining 92 MAX and 5 787s

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1448369
 
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scbriml
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:20 pm

BOC Aviation cancels 30 MAX.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boc- ... it%20added
(Reuters) - Hong Kong’s BOC Aviation (2588.HK) said on Tuesday it had cancelled an order for 30 of Boeing Co’s (BA.N) 737 MAX planes, the model that was involved in two fatal crashes.

The aircraft lessor will also defer the delivery of some other Boeing 737 MAX aircrafts, it added.
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LJ
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:24 pm

scbriml wrote:
BOC Aviation cancels 30 MAX.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boc- ... it%20added
(Reuters) - Hong Kong’s BOC Aviation (2588.HK) said on Tuesday it had cancelled an order for 30 of Boeing Co’s (BA.N) 737 MAX planes, the model that was involved in two fatal crashes.

The aircraft lessor will also defer the delivery of some other Boeing 737 MAX aircrafts, it added.


Will be interesting to learn if it means all MAX10 are cancelled. Anyway, it's interesting that the main reason for the cancellation seems to be the fact they did many sale-leaseback transactions of existing MAX orders. As such they don't have (or want) to have the 30 MAX on order as it consumes too much capital.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:17 pm

chiad wrote:
I beleive we'll see some 1000, or more, B737 MAX' cancelled or converted to others models during 2020.


Well, I think you might be right. We are 6 months into 2020 and the MAX is already at 700 cancellations or so.
Good moaning!
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:51 pm

With the covid, maybe the Boeing lose half max orders?

Airlines don't need it, can't pay for, no services and lots of parked jets now for future usings.

Max production look to stay low for years.
 
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ghost77
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:23 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
chiad wrote:
I beleive we'll see some 1000, or more, B737 MAX' cancelled or converted to others models during 2020.


Well, I think you might be right. We are 6 months into 2020 and the MAX is already at 700 cancellations or so.


What is MAX current order book as of June 30th 2020? Can someone enlighten me?

g77
 
T4thH
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:38 am

ghost77 wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
chiad wrote:
I beleive we'll see some 1000, or more, B737 MAX' cancelled or converted to others models during 2020.


Well, I think you might be right. We are 6 months into 2020 and the MAX is already at 700 cancellations or so.


What is MAX current order book as of June 30th 2020? Can someone enlighten me?

g77


Ex all cancellations and ex these, who are not any more counted according ASC 600 accounting rules....
End of May, the MAX was down to official number of unfilled orders of 4232.
http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/displaystandardreport.cfm?cboCurrentModel=737&optReportType=AllModels&cboAllModel=737&ViewReportF=View+Report
I bet, it will be down to a number around 4000 end of Jun-2020, it depends, how many more doubtful orders will be additional not any more counted according ASC 600 accounting rules in Jun-2020. And we have seen now some announcements, that airlines and lessors will cancel orders, question will be if these will be already stated in the next listing for end of Jun-2020 or if we will have to wait for few month more, till they will be stated as cancelled in the Boeing books?
 
LJ
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:54 am

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
With the covid, maybe the Boeing lose half max orders?

Airlines don't need it, can't pay for, no services and lots of parked jets now for future usings. .


An airline doesn't need to be able to pay for it as it can lease it. What BOC Aviation is saying (according to the Reuters article), is that airlines are financing their purchasing via sale-and-leaseback agreements (like the one they did with Southwest last month) and thus increasing exposure on the MAX without having them on their own. I't quite logical that any significant increase in sale-and-leaseback agreements may impact the orders of a lease company as they have limited capital and also a certain risk appetite. Thus the cancellation of a lease order may mean another order is not cancelled. My personal view is that from a PR point of view, a cancellation of a lease company is less than that of a blue chip airline.
 
AngMoh
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:53 am

Airbus stated last week that they see a "pipeline" reduction of about 40%, whatever that means. Production for A32x series down to 40pm for the next 2 years with the A321neo no longer having a demand exceeding supply. Component orders down to 25% of last year as they need to clear excess inventory first.
Last edited by 777ER on Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Exeiowa
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:47 pm

Leasing companies might start getting to a leverage problem. I suspect a lot of that money used is borrowed and with a drop in value of owned frames their ability to borrow money to fund additional purchases would be effected. Cutting of troubled airlines from lease back agreements will hasten their end if this scenario plays out.
 
StTim
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:18 pm

It really is a perfect storm for the global economy and that is what drives aerospace.
:o
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:21 pm

Perhaps the bulk of all the discussion should be in the Covid-19 thread rather than this?
 
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ghost77
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:31 am

T4thH wrote:
Ex all cancellations and ex these, who are not any more counted according ASC 600 accounting rules....

End of May, the MAX was down to official number of unfilled orders of 4232.

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/displaystandardreport.cfm?cboCurrentModel=737&optReportType=AllModels&cboAllModel=737&ViewReportF=View+Report

I bet, it will be down to a number around 4000 end of Jun-2020, it depends, how many more doubtful orders will be additional not any more counted according ASC 600 accounting rules in Jun-2020. And we have seen now some announcements, that airlines and lessors will cancel orders, question will be if these will be already stated in the next listing for end of Jun-2020 or if we will have to wait for few month more, till they will be stated as cancelled in the Boeing books?


Very useful! Thanks a lot!

g77
 
T4thH
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:06 pm

...and the MAX order-book massacre goes on...

After AVALON has had already cancelled 75 MAX in Apr-2020, now:
B737 MAX: -27
A330: -1

Additional delivery of 3x A320 has been deferred to 2022.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737max-avolon/leasing-firm-avolon-cancels-another-27-boeing-737-max-jets-idUSKBN2481HE

And as bad guy:
So the question is now: How long we will have to wait, till AVALON will have cancelled the last of the now still left 37 MAX orders?
27 cancellations of MAX in three month (so since Apr-2020); just calculate... so will we have to wait till Oct/Nov-2020, or will we see it earlier?

This is a really good question...
 
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Stitch
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:12 pm

T4thH wrote:
So the question is now: How long we will have to wait, till AVALON will have cancelled the last of the now still left 37 MAX orders? 27 cancellations of MAX in three month (so since Apr-2020); just calculate... so will we have to wait till Oct/Nov-2020, or will we see it earlier?


It depends on if they have customers for them or not and if they can cancel them without (significant) penalty. Their current leases are all under pressure for relief from their customers so they are likely facing a serious cashflow issue and are shedding what they can. So if they still have frames on order, they might not be able to get rid of them.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:56 pm

Airbus June order update:
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/ ... eries.html

No new orders. 1 cancellation that was already reported = 1x A330-900 Avolon.
 
chiad
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:39 pm

Momo1435 wrote:
Airbus June order update:
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/ ... eries.html

No new orders. 1 cancellation that was already reported = 1x A330-900 Avolon.


I find it amazing that there is still no cancellation rush for Airbus.
What am I missing?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:43 pm

chiad wrote:
I find it amazing that there is still no cancellation rush for Airbus. What am I missing?


Less-flexible sales contracts so customers are likely deferring rather than outright cancelling if their finances allow.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:45 pm

chiad wrote:
Momo1435 wrote:
Airbus June order update:
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/ ... eries.html

No new orders. 1 cancellation that was already reported = 1x A330-900 Avolon.


I find it amazing that there is still no cancellation rush for Airbus.
What am I missing?


What has Boeing lost? Just a bunch of MAXs, right?

Depending on their contract, airlines are allowed to cancel the MAX orders if they aren't delivered in the specified time frame, correct?

So if they're expecting to be smaller within the next few years, they might as well cancel some orders since Boeing wasn't able to deliver in time?
 
T4thH
Posts: 971
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:41 pm

Last order, Airbus got this year was from AVOLON on 01-Apr-2020, so already late, when the COVID-19 pandemic had stopped flights and harmed the airline industry.

I was really surprised, that a lessor has ordered 8x A320 and one A321 so late in the pandemic...In my opinion, they shall have known better.

As we see now the cancellation of one A330-900 by the same lessor, was this order of the 9x A320 family members on 01-Apr-2020 in part a form of a swap from one A330 to A320/A321?
 
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scbriml
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Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:45 pm

chiad wrote:
I find it amazing that there is still no cancellation rush for Airbus.
What am I missing?


I don’t think you’re missing anything. The vast majority of Boeing’s cancellations are MAX, which because of the circumstances, are easy to cancel.

Stitch wrote:
Less-flexible sales contracts so customers are likely deferring rather than outright cancelling if their finances allow.


I’d be surprised if there’s any significant difference between the OEMs contracts. The MAX situation is clearly the main contributor to the difference in cancellations between them so far this year.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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DBCoop3r
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:28 am

Re: Airbus and Boeing 2020 Orders

Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:10 pm

scbriml wrote:
chiad wrote:
I find it amazing that there is still no cancellation rush for Airbus.
What am I missing?


I don’t think you’re missing anything. The vast majority of Boeing’s cancellations are MAX, which because of the circumstances, are easy to cancel.

Stitch wrote:
Less-flexible sales contracts so customers are likely deferring rather than outright cancelling if their finances allow.


I’d be surprised if there’s any significant difference between the OEMs contracts. The MAX situation is clearly the main contributor to the difference in cancellations between them so far this year.

Also have to consider how each firm keeps their books. Airbus is known to keep obviously cancelled orders on their log for years, A380 "orders" are a prime example. Boeing for the most part has to be more forthcoming in this manner mostly due to US accounting rules.

UA will never take the A350s on order and that's obvious to us, but if that were the case with a Boeing product, then BA would have to report the future non-revenue differently than Airbus just ignoring it until they have to deal with it.

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