scbriml wrote:

B787oftheworld wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Only another 1,100 cancellations to go!

Only 3 cancellations last month. It seems Boeing is holding on well as Max gets ready for entry into service. I expect no big cancellations from now on.

Plus another 48 removed from the backlog through ASC 606.

VV wrote:

A backlog that represents more than four years of normal production is not very useful.

An opinion with no explanation as to why.

You don't understand, Boeing needs to reject all orders so it has an manageable backlog /S

VV wrote:

B787oftheworld wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Only another 1,100 cancellations to go!

Only 3 cancellations last month. It seems Boeing is holding on well as Max gets ready for entry into service. I expect no big cancellations from now on.

A backlog that represents more than four years of normal production is not very useful. The current crisis is excellent to illustrate how a big backlog is not useful.

Boeing needs to be more disciplined on that front and reduces the backlog to a more reasonable level.

The backlog would be quite useful if Boeing would deliver frames. Reducing backlog by cancelation just shows the hole Boeing managed to get into.

SKY Express has ordered 4 A320neo. In addition they will take 2 on lease from ACG

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/sky- ... -customer/

Airbus PR:

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2020/10/sky-express-orders-four-a320neo-and-becomes-a-new-airbus-customer.html

Airbus received 11 orders in October: https://twitter.com/Airbus/status/1324756052404035584

- 2x A220s from Comlux (ACJ)
- 4x A220s from a private customer (ACJ)
- 1x A320neo from a private customer
- 2x A320neos from SKY Express (I think that’s SKY S.A.? Didn’t they place a firm order for four?)
- 2x undisclosed A321neos

Zero orders for Boeing in October, but 12 MAX cancellations. Not sure about any ASC606 adjustments?

Airbus turned its business around earlier than I expected.
Bad news for me as I sold all my Airbus shares at the end of October (still with a handsome profit) and then the stock soared, but I'm happy for Airbus nonetheless.
Poor Boeing can't seem to get a break.

VV wrote:

B787oftheworld wrote:

scbriml wrote:

Only another 1,100 cancellations to go!

Only 3 cancellations last month. It seems Boeing is holding on well as Max gets ready for entry into service. I expect no big cancellations from now on.

A backlog that represents more than four years of normal production is not very useful. The current crisis is excellent to illustrate how a big backlog is not useful.

Boeing needs to be more disciplined on that front and reduces the backlog to a more reasonable level.

A big backlog means liquidity. Customers have to make a deposit when ordering a frame. Reducing the backlog means paying back the customer deposits. One should think about what that does to Boeing's finances.

mjoelnir wrote:

VV wrote:

B787oftheworld wrote:

Only 3 cancellations last month. It seems Boeing is holding on well as Max gets ready for entry into service. I expect no big cancellations from now on.

A backlog that represents more than four years of normal production is not very useful. The current crisis is excellent to illustrate how a big backlog is not useful.

Boeing needs to be more disciplined on that front and reduces the backlog to a more reasonable level.

A big backlog means liquidity. Customers have to make a deposit when ordering a frame. Reducing the backlog means paying back the customer deposits. One should think about what that does to Boeing's finances.

Can you please explain this part of your comment? "A big backlog means liquidity"

It doesn't make any sense.

Airbus records no new orders for November.

11 cancellations:
10 A220-100
1 A220-300

https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/ ... eries.html

chiad wrote:

Airbus records no new orders for November.

11 cancellations:
10 A220-100
1 A220-300

https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/ ... eries.html

The 10 A221s cancelled are Gulf Air (who signaled that they wouldn’t be taking them years ago). Anyone know who cancelled the single A223?

In terms of airlines Odyssey and Iraqi Airways are the only questionable A220 orders left. Unsure about some of the leasing companies.

Polot wrote:

chiad wrote:

Airbus records no new orders for November.

11 cancellations:
10 A220-100
1 A220-300

https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/ ... eries.html

The 10 A221s cancelled are Gulf Air (who signaled that they wouldn’t be taking them years ago). Anyone know who cancelled the single A223?

Macquarie Financial Holdings

Boeing records 2 B767-2C (tanker) orders
and 30 B737max cancellations for November.

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... -november/

Boeing also booked a new Virgin Australia order for 25 737 MAX in November.

But it turns out they also cancelled their previous orders for 48 MAX (23 Max 8s and 25 Max 10s) at the same time they placed this new one for 25 737-10s.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/v ... 99.article


The cancellations are part of the 30 for last month, a part of this old Virgin Australia order was already listed as under the ASC 606 adjustments.

Air Greenland has firmed their singe order for an A330-800

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 30neo.html

Air Greenland, the flag-carrier for Greenland, is the latest airline to order Airbus’ next generation A330neo widebody aircraft.

https://financialpost.com/pmn/business- ... 7-max-jets

Alaska order 23 MAX 9 under restructured deal for 62, with 58 options.

Alaska is scheduled to receive 13 planes in 2021; 30 in 2022; 13 in 2023; and 12 in 2024.

So, 2020 is over now, what are the grand totals for the year?

What is the breakdown by country? How many widebodies / narrowbodies? Freighters / pax?

workhorse wrote:

So, 2020 is over now, what are the grand totals for the year?

What is the breakdown by country? How many widebodies / narrowbodies? Freighters / pax?

We have to wait until Airbus and Boeing release their December numbers later this month.

Is any 5th quarter orders expected this year?

miegapele wrote:

Is any 5th quarter orders expected this year?

Don't forget the potential 5th quarter cancellations...

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk

According to this, Airbus saw 31 cancellations in December 2020: https://twitter.com/rschuur_aero/status ... 6686460931

- 1 A220-300
- 4 A321neo
- 3 A330-200F
- 6 A330-300
- 2 A330-900
- 15 A350-900

Anyone know which airlines cancelled these?

Ishrion wrote:

According to this, Airbus saw 31 cancellations in December 2020: https://twitter.com/rschuur_aero/status ... 6686460931

- 1 A220-300
- 4 A321neo
- 3 A330-200F
- 6 A330-300
- 2 A330-900
- 15 A350-900

Anyone know which airlines cancelled these?

Those 350s and 339s might be air asia x

Ishrion wrote:

According to this, Airbus saw 31 cancellations in December 2020: https://twitter.com/rschuur_aero/status ... 6686460931

- 1 A220-300
- 4 A321neo
- 3 A330-200F
- 6 A330-300
- 2 A330-900
- 15 A350-900

Anyone know which airlines cancelled these?

AirAsiaX cancelled their A350 order: https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 9094266880

Although, I think that's only 10? Who cancelled the other five A350s?

Ishrion wrote:

According to this, Airbus saw 31 cancellations in December 2020: https://twitter.com/rschuur_aero/status ... 6686460931

- 1 A220-300
- 4 A321neo
- 3 A330-200F
- 6 A330-300
- 2 A330-900
- 15 A350-900

Anyone know which airlines cancelled these?

The A330Fs are MNG Airways who ordered 4, took one in 2012 and never took the rest. They were also the last remaining A33F orders on the books.

The A333 are Hong Kong Air (5x- these were actually built in 2018 and are sitting stored never delivered, so eventually Airbus will be logging 5 A333 orders when they find a home) and Egyptair (1x)

I’m a bit confused by what’s going on with the A338Neo. Airbus has removed Uganda order for 2 A338s (1 of which was just delivered) and Air Senegal’s order for 2 A339, even though Air Senegal’s order were delivered. BOC Aviation’s A339 order count bumped from 2 to 4 with all delivered. It looks like they made a mistake somewhere.

Since it was never stated: Airbus received two orders in December:
+1 A330-200 ( DGA (French Air Force) MRTT)
+1 A330-800 ( Air Greenland previously announced)

Ishrion wrote:

AirAsiaX cancelled their A350 order: https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 9094266880

Although, I think that's only 10? Who cancelled the other five A350s?

Turkish Airlines: 2x
Hong Kong Air: 2x
Undisclosed: 1x

Momo1435 wrote:

Ishrion wrote:

AirAsiaX cancelled their A350 order: https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 9094266880

Although, I think that's only 10? Who cancelled the other five A350s?

Turkish Airlines: 2x
Hong Kong Air: 2x
Undisclosed: 1x

Turkish cancellation is interesting.

Polot wrote:

Ishrion wrote:

According to this, Airbus saw 31 cancellations in December 2020: https://twitter.com/rschuur_aero/status ... 6686460931

- 1 A220-300
- 4 A321neo
- 3 A330-200F
- 6 A330-300
- 2 A330-900
- 15 A350-900

Anyone know which airlines cancelled these?

The A330Fs are MNG Airways who ordered 4, took one in 2012 and never took the rest. They were also the last remaining A33F orders on the books.

The A333 are Hong Kong Air (5x- these were actually built in 2018 and are sitting stored never delivered, so eventually Airbus will be logging 5 A333 orders when they find a home) and Egyptair (1x)

I’m a bit confused by what’s going on with the A338Neo. Airbus has removed Uganda order for 2 A338s (1 of which was just delivered) and Air Senegal’s order for 2 A339, even though Air Senegal’s order were delivered. BOC Aviation’s A339 order count bumped from 2 to 4 with all delivered. It looks like they made a mistake somewhere.

Since it was never stated: Airbus received two orders in December:
+1 A330-200 ( DGA (French Air Force) MRTT)
+1 A330-800 ( Air Greenland previously announced)

Nothing went wrong, both Uganda's and Air Senegal’s are still in the books.

The changes on the A339:

Undisclosed was -4 A339
BOC was +2 A339

So the cancellation was for 2 Undisclosed orders and 2 more were transferred to BOC.

Momo1435 wrote:

Polot wrote:

Ishrion wrote:

According to this, Airbus saw 31 cancellations in December 2020: https://twitter.com/rschuur_aero/status ... 6686460931

- 1 A220-300
- 4 A321neo
- 3 A330-200F
- 6 A330-300
- 2 A330-900
- 15 A350-900

Anyone know which airlines cancelled these?

The A330Fs are MNG Airways who ordered 4, took one in 2012 and never took the rest. They were also the last remaining A33F orders on the books.

The A333 are Hong Kong Air (5x- these were actually built in 2018 and are sitting stored never delivered, so eventually Airbus will be logging 5 A333 orders when they find a home) and Egyptair (1x)

I’m a bit confused by what’s going on with the A338Neo. Airbus has removed Uganda order for 2 A338s (1 of which was just delivered) and Air Senegal’s order for 2 A339, even though Air Senegal’s order were delivered. BOC Aviation’s A339 order count bumped from 2 to 4 with all delivered. It looks like they made a mistake somewhere.

Since it was never stated: Airbus received two orders in December:
+1 A330-200 ( DGA (French Air Force) MRTT)
+1 A330-800 ( Air Greenland previously announced)

Nothing went wrong, both Uganda's and Air Senegal’s are still in the books.

The changes on the A339:

Undisclosed was -4 A339
BOC was +2 A339

So the cancellation was for 2 Undisclosed orders and 2 more were transferred to BOC.

Interesting, it didn’t show up for me earlier but I guess the page just didn’t load correctly or Airbus released a quiet update.

Momo1435 wrote:

Ishrion wrote:

AirAsiaX cancelled their A350 order: https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 9094266880

Although, I think that's only 10? Who cancelled the other five A350s?

Turkish Airlines: 2x
Hong Kong Air: 2x
Undisclosed: 1x

Wrong.
CIT (Avolon) -3
Turkish -2
Hong Kong A/l -2
Undisclosed +2

UA947 wrote:

Momo1435 wrote:

Ishrion wrote:

AirAsiaX cancelled their A350 order: https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 9094266880

Although, I think that's only 10? Who cancelled the other five A350s?

Turkish Airlines: 2x
Hong Kong Air: 2x
Undisclosed: 1x

Wrong.
CIT (Avolon) -3
Turkish -2
Hong Kong A/l -2
Undisclosed +2

So it could be either an CIT (Avolon) or still an Undisclosed cancellation.

Momo1435 wrote:

UA947 wrote:

Momo1435 wrote:

Turkish Airlines: 2x
Hong Kong Air: 2x
Undisclosed: 1x

Wrong.
CIT (Avolon) -3
Turkish -2
Hong Kong A/l -2
Undisclosed +2

So it could be either an CIT (Avolon) or still an Undisclosed cancellation.

No it is not undisclosed. Check the order sheet before making unfounded remarks.

Does the Turkish minus 2 A350 match the undisclosed plus 2? i.e. a sale and leaseback?

JerseyFlyer wrote:

Does the Turkish minus 2 A350 match the undisclosed plus 2? i.e. a sale and leaseback?

That would be my guess but there is really no way of knowing for sure until something is announced.

UA947 wrote:

Momo1435 wrote:

UA947 wrote:

Wrong.
CIT (Avolon) -3
Turkish -2
Hong Kong A/l -2
Undisclosed +2

So it could be either an CIT (Avolon) or still an Undisclosed cancellation.

No it is not undisclosed. Check the order sheet before making unfounded remarks.

You are right and wrong with that last remark.

The order sheet doesn't give a definite answer since you can't see which of the 3 orders was transferred to undisclosed. Airbus numbers don't give a breakdown of the undisclosed orders, just the totals. This could mean that it was the CIT order that was transferred, with 1 other unidentified order cancelled.

But it looks like Airbus has actually confirmed that the CIT and the Turkish Airlines orders were cancelled. They said nothing of the Hong Kong Airlines orders, which as we know are also gone. Therefor we can conclude that this one was indeed transferred order.

source:
https://airinsight.com/airbus-ends-2020 ... eliveries/


This does makes sense, the CAAC has probably taken back the orders for the A350s to place them at another Chinese airline. The Hong Kong Air A330 order was cancelled outright, the CAAC will not have been interested in these anymore.

Momo1435 wrote:

This does makes sense, the CAAC has probably taken back the orders for the A350s to place them at another Chinese airline. The Hong Kong Air A330 order was cancelled outright, the CAAC will not have been interested in these anymore.

I don’t believe Hong Kong Air/HNA Group are part of the whole CAAC order operation. They are not owned by the central government, unless things have changed recently due to HNA’s shakey financial situation. Of course this could be a repeat of the Hong Kong Air A380 order that shifted to undisclosed before eventually being cancelled years later.

So, basically it means there were only 13 "real" new orders for Airbus widebodies in 2020:

- 1 338 for Air Greenland
- 1 MRTT for the French Air Force
- 10 359s for Air France
- 1 359 for Air Lease Corp

...hardly surprising but sad.

I think we shall consider +13 as surprisingly positive numbers for a year like 2020...

The Airbus bloodbath will be the A330...

Didn't NATO also firm up it's order for the 9th A330MRTT? (And the France Airforce A330(s) might by executive jets)
The Airbus widebody order summary is in the negative, more cancelations than orders. (ODs Dec.2019 vs Dec. 2020)
A330-200 +1
A330-200F -3
A330-300 -6 (NTU's)
A330-800 +1
A330-900 -7
A350-900 -3
A350-1000 -8 (also several down conversions from -1000 to -900)

A point worth making ...

Unless I'm much mistaken, these six A330-300s - NTU - have been built and flown. Yes, it's a cancellation but these planes will end up somewhere with someone.

PM wrote:

A point worth making ...

Unless I'm much mistaken, these six A330-300s - NTU - have been built and flown. Yes, it's a cancellation but these planes will end up somewhere with someone.

There are 5 Hong Kong A330 ntu. MSNs 1863, 1865, 1874, 1902, and 1907. First flown in March, April, Jul, Oct, and Nov 2018 respectively. The 6th A330 cancelled was an Egyptair frame that was never built. Pre covid these would have been snapped up fairly quickly once all the issues with the Hong Kong contract were resolved. Now who knows.

CFRPwingALbody wrote:

Didn't NATO also firm up it's order for the 9th A330MRTT? (And the France Airforce A330(s) might by executive jets)

Unless the DGA plane is for NATO no they did not.

Airbus D&S Order backlog from Nov.30 2020 list a total of 9x A330MRTT for NATO and 12x for France.
At the beginning of 2020 it was 8x Nato and 12x France. So one MRTT for NATO was added in 2020.
The A330 for France hasn't been includes in the list jet.

CFRPwingALbody wrote:

Airbus D&S Order backlog from Nov.30 2020 list a total of 9x A330MRTT for NATO and 12x for France.
At the beginning of 2020 it was 8x Nato and 12x France. So one MRTT for NATO was added in 2020.
The A330 for France hasn't been includes in the list jet.

Airbus only added one A332 this year. So either that jet ordered under DGA is destined for NATO and not the French Air Force or the NATO jet is being taken from previous French order and new order is to replace it. I assumed the new jet was for France because DGA is the French Government Defense procurement Agency but I suppose it could be destined for NATO. Being a treaty organization I’m not sure how NATO’s orders are officially funded and accounted for on Airbus’s order book.

Polot wrote:

PM wrote:

A point worth making ...

Unless I'm much mistaken, these six A330-300s - NTU - have been built and flown. Yes, it's a cancellation but these planes will end up somewhere with someone.

There are 5 Hong Kong A330 ntu. MSNs 1863, 1865, 1874, 1902, and 1907. First flown in March, April, Jul, Oct, and Nov 2018 respectively. The 6th A330 cancelled was an Egyptair frame that was never built. Pre covid these would have been snapped up fairly quickly once all the issues with the Hong Kong contract were resolved. Now who knows.

I think we should also include MSN 1917 - built and flown. It was for Lucky Air - also an HNA airline. That's six planes sitting and looking for a new home.

PM wrote:

Polot wrote:

PM wrote:

A point worth making ...

Unless I'm much mistaken, these six A330-300s - NTU - have been built and flown. Yes, it's a cancellation but these planes will end up somewhere with someone.

There are 5 Hong Kong A330 ntu. MSNs 1863, 1865, 1874, 1902, and 1907. First flown in March, April, Jul, Oct, and Nov 2018 respectively. The 6th A330 cancelled was an Egyptair frame that was never built. Pre covid these would have been snapped up fairly quickly once all the issues with the Hong Kong contract were resolved. Now who knows.

I think we should also include MSN 1917 - built and flown. It was for Lucky Air - also an HNA airline. That's six planes sitting and looking for a new home.

Aib family claims that plane was contractually delivered back in October 2019. So while it may be looking for a new home whenever it does find one it wouldn’t be booked as an order for Airbus.

Boeing December 2020 update

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries

DH Aviation Americas: 8x 777F
Ryanair: 75x 737 MAX
Unidentified: 7x 737 MAX

There were no full cancellations, I don't know if there were more ASC 606 Adjustments.

2020 totals

YTD Gross orders: 186
Net orders exluding ASC 606 changes: -471
Net orders including ASC 606 changes: -1.026

Momo1435 wrote:

Boeing December 2020 update

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/#/orders-deliveries

DH Aviation Americas: 8x 777F
Ryanair: 75x 737 MAX
Unidentified: 7x 737 MAX

There were no full cancellations, I don't know if there were more ASC 606 Adjustments.

2020 totals

YTD Gross orders: 186
Net orders exluding ASC 606 changes: -471
Net orders including ASC 606 changes: -1.026

DHL is building quite a 777-F operation, this should take them to 28?

Doing some maths, you will see that in fact 107 aircraft orders were cancelled in December 2020: 105x 737 and 2x 787. Breakdown:
-6x 737 Max ALC
-66x 737 Max Aviation Capital Group
-2x 789 Boeing Capital
-1x 737 Max BBJ
-7x 737 Max CDB Leasing
-21x 737 Max SMBC
-4x 737 Max unidentified (orders from 2018 and 2019)

Boeing is trying really hard to hide these cancellations in their reporting nowadays .

Momo1435 wrote :
There were no full cancellations, ....

What does this mean ? In the link below they say 107 cancellations ( 105 MAX and two 787 ) and even who cancelled.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/boeing-closes-2020-with-backlog-down-22-in-one-year/141920.article

oldJoe wrote:

Momo1435 wrote :
There were no full cancellations, ....

What does this mean ? In the link below they say 107 cancellations ( 105 MAX and two 787 ) and even who cancelled.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/boeing-closes-2020-with-backlog-down-22-in-one-year/141920.article

I see where I made a mistake. I checked the total number of orders via the download data option on the orders and deliveries landing page.This month the the total was exactly 90 more then last month. But that list has every single order that was ever placed, even if it was cancelled 50 years ago.

Boeing's did their very best to make it very hard to keep track of all the cancellations.You can only keep track of the cancellation by looking at the backlog, where the reductions can be both deliveries or cancellations.

No wonder nobody here on the forum is actively counting these orders and cancellations anymore.

Momo1435 wrote:

oldJoe wrote:

Momo1435 wrote :
There were no full cancellations, ....

What does this mean ? In the link below they say 107 cancellations ( 105 MAX and two 787 ) and even who cancelled.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/boeing-closes-2020-with-backlog-down-22-in-one-year/141920.article

I see where I made a mistake. I checked the total number of orders via the download data option on the orders and deliveries landing page.This month the the total was exactly 90 more then last month. But that list has every single order that was ever placed, even if it was cancelled 50 years ago.

Boeing's did their very best to make it very hard to keep track of all the cancellations.You can only keep track of the cancellation by looking at the backlog, where the reductions can be both deliveries or cancellations.

No wonder nobody here on the forum is actively counting these orders and cancellations anymore.

You are doing a great job for the forum on that count. Very much appreciated, please don't join those who have stopped counting.