Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
frigatebird wrote:jbs2886 wrote:scbriml wrote:
After scanning the O&D spreadsheet
SaudiGulf has cancelled their entire order of 16 x A220-300
A350 Changes:
LATAM -4 x A359, -6 x A35K
Undisclosed -10 x A359
Kuwait Airways +5 x A359
10x A359 have to be DL b/c DL was negotiating taking over 10x orders from LATAM. Could be a lessor on behalf of DL, too. (Yes, I'm aware of SEC requirements to announce material events.)
Well, DL did announce they were taking over 10 A350s from LATAM, so DL could be behind the undisclosed order for 10 A350s.
Someone83 wrote:So how many cancellations in March alone then?
Ishrion wrote:Delta confirms it’s taking over the 10 LATAM A350s that were cancelled.
Just being 100% sure here, they aren’t taking over those 6 LATAM A350-1000s, right?
Delta was the undisclosed order for March, which was 10 A350-900s?
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:Jefford717 wrote:When will Airbus (if ever) remove those Iran Air orders from its order book? Any guess?
Are those contracts still officially in place, or have they been cancelled? Afterall, Trump is not going to be in power forever, so hopefully these can still get delivered at some point, they are desperately needed.
T4thH wrote:I am surprised, that not already many more airlines have taken the opportunity, to cancel a part or the full number of ordered B737 MAX jets. They are far behind production schedule, they will be likely two years behind. Airlines shall have the chance to cancel orders without penalty, getting back the first payments, perhaps even Boeing will have to pay break up fees to the airlines for not delivery in time?
PepeTheFrog wrote:T4thH wrote:I am surprised, that not already many more airlines have taken the opportunity, to cancel a part or the full number of ordered B737 MAX jets. They are far behind production schedule, they will be likely two years behind. Airlines shall have the chance to cancel orders without penalty, getting back the first payments, perhaps even Boeing will have to pay break up fees to the airlines for not delivery in time?
Perhaps there will be a bigger slaughter in April.
Remember, customers are allowed to cancel the order after 12 months, so March was just the first month they could do that.
PepeTheFrog wrote:T4thH wrote:I am surprised, that not already many more airlines have taken the opportunity, to cancel a part or the full number of ordered B737 MAX jets. They are far behind production schedule, they will be likely two years behind. Airlines shall have the chance to cancel orders without penalty, getting back the first payments, perhaps even Boeing will have to pay break up fees to the airlines for not delivery in time?
Perhaps there will be a bigger slaughter in April.
Remember, customers are allowed to cancel the order after 12 months, so March was just the first month they could do that.
PepeTheFrog wrote:T4thH wrote:I am surprised, that not already many more airlines have taken the opportunity, to cancel a part or the full number of ordered B737 MAX jets. They are far behind production schedule, they will be likely two years behind. Airlines shall have the chance to cancel orders without penalty, getting back the first payments, perhaps even Boeing will have to pay break up fees to the airlines for not delivery in time?
Perhaps there will be a bigger slaughter in April.
Remember, customers are allowed to cancel the order after 12 months, so March was just the first month they could do that.
Stitch wrote:GECAS has cancelled orders for 69 737MAX, leaving 82 still on order: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... oeing-jet/
Momo1435 wrote:The actual 191 MAX cancellations so far this year:
Air Canada: -11x (February)
ALC: -9x (February)
JIA: -10x (February)
Oman Air: -10x (February)
BBJ: -2x (1x February, 1x March)
GOL: -34x (March)
Unidentified: -37x (March)
Smartwings: -5x (March)
Avolon: -73x (both Avolon orders and the CIT order were reduced) (March)
The 2020 ASC 606 Changes also increased by 9 so far this year for the 737, the biggest part of the 141 total is the Jet Airways order for 125 MAX which has not been fully cancelled yet.
The 747 is now also -4 in the 2020 ASC 606 Changes, so it looks like Volga-Dnepr UK Ltd will not take delivery of their remaining order. The 777 number increased from -1 to -14. This should include the Hong Kong Int'l Aviation for 6x 777F, the Pakistan International Airline for 5x 77W, LATAM 2x 777F and another order for 2 more.
It's always good to take into account that the ASC 606 Changes are not reset in the new year. You should take this into account if you compare different years, a good part of the current -160 were already in last years final total of -141.
chiad wrote:Stitch wrote:GECAS has cancelled orders for 69 737MAX, leaving 82 still on order: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... oeing-jet/
I doubt that the airlines and leasing companies will suffer any penalties cancelling the MAX as the program is, in all practical sence, 3 years "delayed".
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:China's CDB cancels 29 MAX, keeps 70, converts all MAX10s to MAX 8s, deliveries pushed out.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKBN222033
https://invst.ly/qh-lv
Boeing said in a statement it continued to partner with leasing company customers to help them balance their portfolios in a challenging market.
PepeTheFrog wrote:With the collapse of Norwegian today, I'm afraid the list of cancellations will pile up soon.
Geoff1947 wrote:Boeing’s end of March figures show 78 ordered and 1 delivered.
Lewton wrote:They have complicated things so much with those "unidentified" orders that even they don't know anymore.
LJ wrote:BTW according to the same website CDB has 2 A330NEOs on order. However, no A330NEO is listed in the Airbus spreadsheet for them. Can we conclude that the 2 A330-NEOs are also "unidentified" or were they cancelled in 2019 (and CDB didn't update their website)?
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:ALAFCO are suing BA for cancelled 40 x MAX order, article says orser was cancelled March 6th, have these numbers been reported anywhere previously? Could these be the unidentified cancellation in March's numbers?
ALAFCO said it canceled its order on March 6 after Boeing failed to deliver nine aircraft on time. It said Boeing has resisted its claim that the problems amounted to a "non-excusable delay" that would justify repayment.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/boeing- ... order.html
Ishrion wrote:ShamrockBoi330 wrote:ALAFCO are suing BA for cancelled 40 x MAX order, article says orser was cancelled March 6th, have these numbers been reported anywhere previously? Could these be the unidentified cancellation in March's numbers?
ALAFCO said it canceled its order on March 6 after Boeing failed to deliver nine aircraft on time. It said Boeing has resisted its claim that the problems amounted to a "non-excusable delay" that would justify repayment.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/boeing- ... order.html
Weren’t there around 36 undisclosed cancellations in March?
Momo1435 wrote:The actual 191 MAX cancellations so far this year:
....
Unidentified: -37x (March)
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:ALAFCO are suing BA for cancelled 40 x MAX order, article says orser was cancelled March 6th, have these numbers been reported anywhere previously? Could these be the unidentified cancellation in March's numbers?
ALAFCO said it canceled its order on March 6 after Boeing failed to deliver nine aircraft on time. It said Boeing has resisted its claim that the problems amounted to a "non-excusable delay" that would justify repayment.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/boeing- ... order.html
Lewton wrote:Leasers like ALAFCO are using the delays (that started over a year ago) as an excuse to cancel orders for aircraft that due to COVID-19 nobody will want to lease.
Lewton wrote:Leasers like ALAFCO are using the delays (that started over a year ago) as an excuse to cancel orders for aircraft that due to COVID-19 nobody will want to lease.
For serious airlines the combination of the 2 events is a better outcome than each one separately. For example Southwest might have suffered a bit due to the lack of new aircraft for several months, but now that COVID-19 has forced them to reduce flights to unprecedented levels, they are happy that they did not receive new MAX for over a year.
The month in review: April 2020
Airbus logged net orders in April for nine commercial aircraft from its A320 product line from Avolon.
By April 30th, Airbus’ gross orders in 2020 totalled 365 aircraft. After cancellations the net orders stand at 299 aircraft.
During the month, 14 deliveries were made from the A320, A330 and A350 XWB aircraft families.
Business in April brings the overall total orders logged by Airbus since its creation to 20,407 commercial aircraft, which includes 15,572 A320 Family aircraft, 1,819 A330s, 930 A350 XWBs, 642 A220s and 251 A380s.
In April, 12 A320neo Family aircraft were delivered. For Airbus widebody aircraft, one A350 XWBs was provided in the A350-900 configuration; along with one A330ceo.
Among the month’s notable deliveries was the first 100% e-deliveries to Pegasus Airlines.
Airbus’ backlog of aircraft remaining to be delivered as of 30th April stood at 7,645, comprised 6,217 A320 Family aircraft, 529 A220s, 322 A330s, 568 A350 XWBs and nine A380s.
T4thH wrote:Airbus Apr-2020 numbers are out:
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/orders-deliveries.htmlThe month in review: April 2020
Airbus logged net orders in April for nine commercial aircraft from its A320 product line from Avolon.
By April 30th, Airbus’ gross orders in 2020 totalled 365 aircraft. After cancellations the net orders stand at 299 aircraft.
During the month, 14 deliveries were made from the A320, A330 and A350 XWB aircraft families.
Business in April brings the overall total orders logged by Airbus since its creation to 20,407 commercial aircraft, which includes 15,572 A320 Family aircraft, 1,819 A330s, 930 A350 XWBs, 642 A220s and 251 A380s.
In April, 12 A320neo Family aircraft were delivered. For Airbus widebody aircraft, one A350 XWBs was provided in the A350-900 configuration; along with one A330ceo.
Among the month’s notable deliveries was the first 100% e-deliveries to Pegasus Airlines.
Airbus’ backlog of aircraft remaining to be delivered as of 30th April stood at 7,645, comprised 6,217 A320 Family aircraft, 529 A220s, 322 A330s, 568 A350 XWBs and nine A380s.
As just checked: No new cancellations.
9 new orders by Avolon on 01-Apr-2020: 8x A320 Neo and 1x A321 Neo.
Not bad for Airbus in this bad times.
chiad wrote:T4thH wrote:Airbus Apr-2020 numbers are out:
https://www.airbus.com/aircraft/market/orders-deliveries.htmlThe month in review: April 2020
Airbus logged net orders in April for nine commercial aircraft from its A320 product line from Avolon.
By April 30th, Airbus’ gross orders in 2020 totalled 365 aircraft. After cancellations the net orders stand at 299 aircraft.
During the month, 14 deliveries were made from the A320, A330 and A350 XWB aircraft families.
Business in April brings the overall total orders logged by Airbus since its creation to 20,407 commercial aircraft, which includes 15,572 A320 Family aircraft, 1,819 A330s, 930 A350 XWBs, 642 A220s and 251 A380s.
In April, 12 A320neo Family aircraft were delivered. For Airbus widebody aircraft, one A350 XWBs was provided in the A350-900 configuration; along with one A330ceo.
Among the month’s notable deliveries was the first 100% e-deliveries to Pegasus Airlines.
Airbus’ backlog of aircraft remaining to be delivered as of 30th April stood at 7,645, comprised 6,217 A320 Family aircraft, 529 A220s, 322 A330s, 568 A350 XWBs and nine A380s.
As just checked: No new cancellations.
9 new orders by Avolon on 01-Apr-2020: 8x A320 Neo and 1x A321 Neo.
Not bad for Airbus in this bad times.
Orderwise it's much better than I feared.
T4thH wrote:9 new orders by Avolon on 01-Apr-2020: 8x A320 Neo and 1x A321 Neo.
Not bad for Airbus in this bad times.
LJ wrote:T4thH wrote:9 new orders by Avolon on 01-Apr-2020: 8x A320 Neo and 1x A321 Neo.
Not bad for Airbus in this bad times.
Thus they cancel 75 MAX citing "the most challenging period in the history of commercial aviation." and the disruption of COVID-19 but order 9 A32XNEO? It's a strange world.
FluidFlow wrote:LJ wrote:T4thH wrote:9 new orders by Avolon on 01-Apr-2020: 8x A320 Neo and 1x A321 Neo.
Not bad for Airbus in this bad times.
Thus they cancel 75 MAX citing "the most challenging period in the history of commercial aviation." and the disruption of COVID-19 but order 9 A32XNEO? It's a strange world.
As this is a leasing company, I guess someone didn't wanted the MAX anymore and Avolon cancelled on behalf of them, while someone else wanted more NEOs. Also, due to the MAX disaster, it is way easier to cancel MAX orders. So Avolon reduced their exposure while getting more "safe bets" on board.
WestWing wrote:A couple of years ago Boeing/AA announced that AA would receive 22 new 787-8s which would be owned by Boeing Capital and leased to AA. Something interesting is that when the first of these 22 was delivered last month the O&D site shows that it was delivered to AA rather than to Boeing Capital. Previously, AA had 20 orders for the 787-8 (all delivered) and Boeing Capital had 22 orders but now, with the March Update, O&D is showing 21 orders for each.
Another wrinkle is that FlightGlobal reported that these 22 AA 787-8 leases would be taken over by BOC aviation. Maybe the way the deal is now re-structured is AA takes delivery instead of Boeing Capital and then immediately sell to BOC aviation for future leaseback.?
Flying-Tiger wrote:FluidFlow wrote:LJ wrote:
Thus they cancel 75 MAX citing "the most challenging period in the history of commercial aviation." and the disruption of COVID-19 but order 9 A32XNEO? It's a strange world.
As this is a leasing company, I guess someone didn't wanted the MAX anymore and Avolon cancelled on behalf of them, while someone else wanted more NEOs. Also, due to the MAX disaster, it is way easier to cancel MAX orders. So Avolon reduced their exposure while getting more "safe bets" on board.
Avolon stated that the 75 MAX cancelled had not been placed, thus it appears not to be directly airline related but rather financially motivated.
I guess the new Airbus orders were part of a rearrangement of the order book with them. Defer a number of planes by xyv years, but no delay charges to be paid, instead the order book increased. Probably means for both no cash-in/cash-out issues at the moment.
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:For April,
No orders
108 MAX cancellations (GECAS 69, China DevelopmentBank Financing 29, Unidentified 10)
Plus a further 99 accounting adjustments for questionable deliveries
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... s-deepens/
ShamrockBoi330 wrote:For April,
No orders
108 MAX cancellations (GECAS 69, China DevelopmentBank Financing 29, Unidentified 10)
Plus a further 99 accounting adjustments for questionable deliveries
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... s-deepens/
chiad wrote:ShamrockBoi330 wrote:For April,
No orders
108 MAX cancellations (GECAS 69, China DevelopmentBank Financing 29, Unidentified 10)
Plus a further 99 accounting adjustments for questionable deliveries
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... s-deepens/
If Seattle Times are correct then the net orders volume between Airbus and Boeing is incredible unbalanced right now.
Airbus has +299 net orders vs -516 for Boeing.
If we include 2019 the the number would be Airbus: 1067 vs Boeing: -603
My calculator says that this is 1670 frames in favour for Airbus during the last 17 months.
chiad wrote:ShamrockBoi330 wrote:For April,
No orders
108 MAX cancellations (GECAS 69, China DevelopmentBank Financing 29, Unidentified 10)
Plus a further 99 accounting adjustments for questionable deliveries
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... s-deepens/
If Seattle Times are correct then the net orders volume between Airbus and Boeing is incredible unbalanced right now.
Airbus has +299 net orders vs -516 for Boeing.
If we include 2019 the the number would be Airbus: 1067 vs Boeing: -603
My calculator says that this is 1670 frames in favour for Airbus during the last 17 months.
Momo1435 wrote:Airbus is also only at +269 this year
Momo1435 wrote:But as T4thH already mentioned, there are different accounting rules and we don't know how many ASC 606 Changes Airbus would have if they were an American company.