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tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:14 pm

LHR would be the best. Having JFK/BOS at LGW is fine too. Having split operation of BOS-LHR and JFK-LGW is not ideal, but it would allow them to capture more business passengers out of BOS and not have to compete AA/BA on JFK-LHR. There is plenty of high yield demand on JFK-LGW. With BA unlikely to operate JFK-LGW for a while and DY likely to go under, there is plenty of space in that market. Having split operation of BOS-STN and JFK-LGW would be a disaster.

I can't see how this will be their intention long term or medium term. STN is just backup until they can secure more slots at LGW or LHR. Again, DY is claiming more slots at LGW than last year. That's clearly not going to fly in reality. VS is looking to hang on to all their LGW slots with no intention to go back there anytime soon. Do these 2 airlines even make it to Summer of 2021? DY definitely won't. VS quite possibly will be done also. Let's wait until they actually announce something.

If they do try to run 2x BOS-STN next summer while waiting for LHR to become available, that would be an absolute disaster waiting to happen.
 
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Polot
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:28 pm

fromheretohere9 wrote:
Everyone is always so quick to write Stansted off. But look how strong Emirates and Air India where previously. Also when Primera was flying they did very well to. Just because Stansted is the home of Ryanair and low cost carriers dose not mean it can not hold up transatlantic routes or flights with legacy carriers.

Emirates has a large number of flights to LHR and LGW. STN is just rounding out their London operations. Air India only started STN last November with a 3x weekly route. Both airlines have been flying to London for decades and are established brands.

Air Primera was much more of a LCC than B6 is (~200 seat A321neos with US domestic F style premium class, B6 will have far fewer seats with a flat bed premium class) and only flew TATL from STN for a few months before going broke and ceasing ops.

JetBlue is an entirely unknown brand in the UK, that is apparently as of now splitting their ops between two different airports based on US destination. That’s not a great way to build brand awareness.
 
jfk777
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:46 pm

In the longer term JB could fly to Both Gatwick and Stansted, in the beginning it should focus on one airport. LGW should be that airport since Gatwick is well known and is London's second airport to LHR. Quick train to Victoria Station too.
 
B752OS
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:20 pm

Apart from JFK, any US city to STN would be very tough to make work. Goodluck to JetBlue.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:38 pm

Polot wrote:
Air Primera was much more of a LCC than B6 is (~200 seat A321neos with US domestic F style premium class, B6 will have far fewer seats with a flat bed premium class) and only flew TATL from STN for a few months before going broke and ceasing ops.

JetBlue is an entirely unknown brand in the UK, that is apparently as of now splitting their ops between two different airports based on US destination. That’s not a great way to build brand awareness.


The B6 Y product isn't up to much though? Even the food options in MINT are not competitive across the Atlantic. Of course it is entirely possible, even likely, that they will have a different option for transatlantic routes.
 
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Polot
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:43 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
Polot wrote:
Air Primera was much more of a LCC than B6 is (~200 seat A321neos with US domestic F style premium class, B6 will have far fewer seats with a flat bed premium class) and only flew TATL from STN for a few months before going broke and ceasing ops.

JetBlue is an entirely unknown brand in the UK, that is apparently as of now splitting their ops between two different airports based on US destination. That’s not a great way to build brand awareness.


The B6 Y product isn't up to much though? Even the food options in MINT are not competitive across the Atlantic. Of course it is entirely possible, even likely, that they will have a different option for transatlantic routes.

I’m not sure about the food options, but the hard product is generally as good or better than the full service carriers in both Mint and Y. 32” pitch, power outlets throughout, I assume B6 will offer free movies since the live TV won’t work TATL.
 
Brickell305
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:52 pm

8herveg wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
Mikeer50 wrote:
I’m not familiar with the geography of London. Why has LHR historically been the airport everyone wants to get into? I’m assuming it gives the best connection to downtown London? Thanks.


yes, and at least with LGW you do have a good option with the Gatwick Express into central London. STN/LTN are way out. Although, my preference is LCY!!

Airport to Big Ben via rail/subway departing at 10am:
LHR: 34 min.
LTN: 65 min.
LGW: 43 min.
STN: 66 min.
LCY: 31 min.
SEN: 91 min.


If JetBlue are aiming for the business market though, why is Big Ben a factor? Most Businessmen/women will be going to the City/Canary Wharf. In which case, LGW is much more appealing than LHR. LGW to London Bridge station is just 30 mins and then either a walk across the bridge to Bank, or a few stops on the Jubilee to Canary Wharf. Travelling from LHR to Bank/Canary Wharf (whether that's on the tube or the Heathrow Express) would take twice as long. Honestly, I don't know what the fuss is with LHR. JetBlue would probably be using T4 (given it's the non-aligned airline terminal - although I know it's closed at the moment but may be reopen by the time JetBlue starts the route) which is just as nice/not nice (depending on how you look at it) as the terminals at LGW!

If that’s the case, why is LHR the business travel oriented airport in London and LGW the leisure travel oriented airport?
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:55 pm

Polot wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:
Polot wrote:
Air Primera was much more of a LCC than B6 is (~200 seat A321neos with US domestic F style premium class, B6 will have far fewer seats with a flat bed premium class) and only flew TATL from STN for a few months before going broke and ceasing ops.

JetBlue is an entirely unknown brand in the UK, that is apparently as of now splitting their ops between two different airports based on US destination. That’s not a great way to build brand awareness.


The B6 Y product isn't up to much though? Even the food options in MINT are not competitive across the Atlantic. Of course it is entirely possible, even likely, that they will have a different option for transatlantic routes.

I’m not sure about the food options, but the hard product is generally as good or better than the full service carriers in both Mint and Y. 32” pitch, power outlets throughout, I assume B6 will offer free movies since the live TV won’t work TATL.


Just to give people an idea of what JetBlue is planning to do, their application for these slots had LR configured to just 138 seats. It will be very premium configured. My guess is 24 to 28 J seating.
https://paxex.aero/2020/11/jetblue-init ... d-gatwick/

that will allow for galley space for catering across all the seating classes. I'm assuming they will continue with 33" pitch in Y as they have in all the mint configured aircraft. On top of that, they will be offering free wifi and their next generation IFE that's on their A321NEOs and phase 2 A320 reconfigs.
 
chonetsao
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:56 pm

London Stanstead is THE DE FACTO airport for CAMBRIDGE region.

BOSTON -- CAMBRIDGE. Research shuttle. Got the picture? This route is not for the mom and pop average tourists. It has a specific group of research institution millennial in mind.

Now let us go back to the cost side of the things. Both LGW and LHR are expensive to operate. JetBlue would be at a disadvantage by using a single aisle and limited frequency service. CASM would be terrible for airport charges alone. Plus the LHR departure fees would add to the fares. Unless Jetblue can secure 3-5 daily flights to make it competitive to other carrier from BOS or JFK, the cost of operating a single daily flight is not economical. Which big company would give jetblue a fat corporate contract if there is only a single daily flight between JFK and LON when you have 12-15 daily on AA+BA and 6-8 daily on DL+VS?

So BOS and London Stanstead is a special route that target a special group of consumer of which jetblue might already signed a corporate contract, JFK-LGW is a test route to see how jetblue can achieve on London market with views of expansion if successful. I have no doubt jetblue would add JFK-LGW to 3-5 daily once the market is back to normal. But I think Jetblue accepts the fact that LHR is still out of reach without securing multiple daily flights and the current plan for JFK-LGW is only temporary to test the water.
 
UPNYGuy
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:01 pm

Is it entirely possible that they are waiting on DY to go belly up and grab the BOS-LGW route? From what i have been reading, it is highly improbable that DY will resume TATL flights.
 
catiii
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:25 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
Polot wrote:
Air Primera was much more of a LCC than B6 is (~200 seat A321neos with US domestic F style premium class, B6 will have far fewer seats with a flat bed premium class) and only flew TATL from STN for a few months before going broke and ceasing ops.

JetBlue is an entirely unknown brand in the UK, that is apparently as of now splitting their ops between two different airports based on US destination. That’s not a great way to build brand awareness.


The B6 Y product isn't up to much though? Even the food options in MINT are not competitive across the Atlantic. Of course it is entirely possible, even likely, that they will have a different option for transatlantic routes.


Except JetBlue announced a refresh of the Mint soft product today. And you know they're going to have to change the hard product as well. I also wouldn't assume that the hard product you see for TCON would be the hard product across the Atlantic.

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/jetblu ... -amenities
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:27 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I doubt B6 would even try London without LHR. My guess is they are still working on the LHR slots and given the state of the airline industry post-Pandemic those shouldn't be too hard to get. I have always suspected that B6's strategy for London was always LHR+1 or maybe even LHR+2. It makes zero sense for B6 to go into London without LHR.


Pandemic or not, LHR slots are around $75 million dollars. Money that JetBlue doesn't have. JetBlue isn't special. They can hang out LGW like the other US carriers had to do for years.


Sorry, that's fake news. First, only a government owned airline from an oil rich country pays $75 million for a slot pair and very few of those if any are looking for additional LHR slots these days. And I know that it included an early morning arrival but people in the know all agree that they overpaid. NZ just sold its slot pair for $27 million, before the Pandemic halted air travel and that's a value that is much closer to reality.
Second, B6 has the money. About $3 billion cash on hand as of last month and this is 7 months into a Pandemic that destroyed the airline industry. They just need the slots to become available and I believe that there will be a good number of them coming up because some airlines are going under or are in desperate need for cash.

B6 would not be flying 138-seat A321's to London, regardless of what airport it is without strong commitments from their corporate clients. These routes are not for the leisure passenger. IMO the STN and LGW news are just the beginning, not the entirety of B6's expansion into London.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:30 pm

 
trueblew
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:32 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Those destinations mean the unveiling of Mint 2.0.

No new destination.

Yawn


Wasn't it JetBlue recently that teased a "new destination" internally and it ended up being an internal social media and corporate news app? JetBlue seem to have a very loose definition of "destination."
 
JibberJim
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:47 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
If that’s the case, why is LHR the business travel oriented airport in London and LGW the leisure travel oriented airport?


From a London point of sale perspective, the majority of business travel is solo people living in west London, so the key is the ease of getting one person with no luggage to the airport in shortest time from home (or returning home as quickly as possible). LHR dominates this.

For Leisure travel it changes a bit, you no longer need to get one person with no luggage, but a family with a fair bit of luggage, that changes things, now LGW is more realistic as it's easier to drive to (or be in a taxi for) for much of the catchment, and of course you need a wider variety of destinations when it's for leisure.

The time to central London or City is only relevant for non London point of sale, but obviously for the London point of sale people are more spread out, but the west and south west of London between LGW and LHR has more wealth the areas near the other airports.
 
CALMSP
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:47 pm

8herveg wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
Mikeer50 wrote:
I’m not familiar with the geography of London. Why has LHR historically been the airport everyone wants to get into? I’m assuming it gives the best connection to downtown London? Thanks.


yes, and at least with LGW you do have a good option with the Gatwick Express into central London. STN/LTN are way out. Although, my preference is LCY!!

Airport to Big Ben via rail/subway departing at 10am:
LHR: 34 min.
LTN: 65 min.
LGW: 43 min.
STN: 66 min.
LCY: 31 min.
SEN: 91 min.


If JetBlue are aiming for the business market though, why is Big Ben a factor? Most Businessmen/women will be going to the City/Canary Wharf. In which case, LGW is much more appealing than LHR. LGW to London Bridge station is just 30 mins and then either a walk across the bridge to Bank, or a few stops on the Jubilee to Canary Wharf. Travelling from LHR to Bank/Canary Wharf (whether that's on the tube or the Heathrow Express) would take twice as long. Honestly, I don't know what the fuss is with LHR. JetBlue would probably be using T4 (given it's the non-aligned airline terminal - although I know it's closed at the moment but may be reopen by the time JetBlue starts the route) which is just as nice/not nice (depending on how you look at it) as the terminals at LGW!


I simply picked a point in central London and used that as a measure.
 
LHRXXXLHR
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:54 pm

Boston-Cambridge research as raison d’etre is highly unlikely and would require multiple corporate contracts. RDU-LHR survived (while it did travel ban notwithstanding) only because of GSK’s massive presence on both ends not to mention all of the ancillary positives of that flight (research other than GSK, huge education population, minor transfer possibilities). Maybe this flight will come back and I hope it does as it is every trans-Atlantic commuter’s super, double-secret backup flight.

B6 to LGW I understand. The B6 trans-con crowd is the target. This not-so youngish crowd and their replacements successfully moved away from AA, DL and UA when B6 started and some have happily moved up to Mint as their fortunes grew. First-hand experience has seen Mint almost always sold out between JFK and LAX with a rare staff upgrade. Priced correctly (as in undercutting everyone else) I expect the same for Mint to LGW. For this crowd, it’s all about the hard product.

STN...why?
 
BrianDromey
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:57 pm

The revamp of the hard product sounds promising, but 138 is a very low seat count, there will be little, or no cargo to increase income either. Clearly B6 reckon they can command a decent yield and high loads. That does not sound like STN to me. I hear what posters are saying about "research corridors" but STN does not have "full service" connections to any EU3 hub. It does have a vast network to every major and most minor European cities. Traditional legacy offerings have not served at STN, even long-haul LCC has not worked very well either. Connecting into hubs seems to work for EK, but the model is so different to B6, Im not sure there is a valid comparison.

catiii wrote:
Except JetBlue announced a refresh of the Mint soft product today. And you know they're going to have to change the hard product as well. I also wouldn't assume that the hard product you see for TCON would be the hard product across the Atlantic.

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/jetblu ... -amenities


In fairness that does look like a nice domestic product. Perhaps a little more is still needed for the F&B offering on transatlantic services, but its not far off. I still think STN is the wrong airport for a 136 seat NEO. The landing charges at LHR will make it very expensive per seat too. A reasonable density A330 seems like a better, more flexible, platform to me. I had imagined that the NEOs would be interoperable with the MINT fleet, helping to increase utilisation. That does not seem like it will be possible.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:01 pm

That was super weak. Didn't even reveal the mint 2.0 cabin.

At least we got from the slot applications that LR is supposed to be configured with 138 seats.
 
Seat1D
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:06 pm

With the link the o p provided I'm having trouble finding exactly where it says they are flying to STN and LGW.

Has anyone else been able to find it?

I find this news rather hard to believe. Has JetBlue formally announced what airports they will fly to?
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:15 pm

Laker SkyTrain had a transatlantic brand too!

Sir Freddie.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:16 pm

AC4500 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Does anyone really see BOS-STN working?

It'll be tough, but not impossible, IMO.

It'll depend on how much O&D low-cost traffic B6 can attract.

I agree tough. The advantage of flying an economical narrowbody is this is possible it might work, but less than ideal.

I'd bet the flight is moved to LGW or LHR as soon as slots are available.

Lightsaber
PS JetBlue has good connections, that might be enough if traffic is returning next summer.
 
chonetsao
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:21 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
The revamp of the hard product sounds promising, but 138 is a very low seat count, there will be little, or no cargo to increase income either. Clearly B6 reckon they can command a decent yield and high loads. That does not sound like STN to me. I hear what posters are saying about "research corridors" but STN does not have "full service" connections to any EU3 hub. It does have a vast network to every major and most minor European cities. Traditional legacy offerings have not served at STN, even long-haul LCC has not worked very well either. Connecting into hubs seems to work for EK, but the model is so different to B6, Im not sure there is a valid comparison.


That is because BOSTON - CAMBRIDGE research traffic is a niche direct market, it does not concern EU3.

Traditionally this traffic is routed via LHR as LHR provided the necessary frequency and other transportation links. The research institution has to contract ground transportation to meet staff in LHR or take them to LHR. Jetblue must have seen this market and figured out a way to pull the corporate contract in order to enable the link to London Stanstead.

The reason why legacy did not use Stanstead was probably the size of the market is too niche to their liken. But it is not a problem for Jetblue. My guess is that Jetblue did the calculation and come to a conclusion that this route could work with early losses. They are betting on a growing number of 'commuting' researchers once the service commence.

Truth to be told, LCC that tried Stanstead - USA link were mostly JFK bound, and were strictly O&D. Jetblue however had the advantage of Boston hub and has the ability to utilise its Boston connections to feed the Stanstead route in order to complement the research shuttle traffic. It reminds me of Hartford CT, only Aer Lingus can make it work and no other legacy could. Stanstead - Boston could be the Hartford, CT of Aer Lingus to Jetblue. With the right aircraft and a niche market, it might work out in the end.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:24 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
The revamp of the hard product sounds promising, but 138 is a very low seat count, there will be little, or no cargo to increase income either. Clearly B6 reckon they can command a decent yield and high loads. That does not sound like STN to me. I hear what posters are saying about "research corridors" but STN does not have "full service" connections to any EU3 hub. It does have a vast network to every major and most minor European cities. Traditional legacy offerings have not served at STN, even long-haul LCC has not worked very well either. Connecting into hubs seems to work for EK, but the model is so different to B6, Im not sure there is a valid comparison.

catiii wrote:
Except JetBlue announced a refresh of the Mint soft product today. And you know they're going to have to change the hard product as well. I also wouldn't assume that the hard product you see for TCON would be the hard product across the Atlantic.

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/jetblu ... -amenities


In fairness that does look like a nice domestic product. Perhaps a little more is still needed for the F&B offering on transatlantic services, but its not far off. I still think STN is the wrong airport for a 136 seat NEO. The landing charges at LHR will make it very expensive per seat too. A reasonable density A330 seems like a better, more flexible, platform to me. I had imagined that the NEOs would be interoperable with the MINT fleet, helping to increase utilisation. That does not seem like it will be possible.


I'm not sure how their 138 seat A321LR config can't work when UA's 167 seat B763 config works to the same market. They are pretty experienced at operating out of high landing fee airports. The landing fee is not that much when you consider how high the business class fares are between NYC/BOS and London. If business class fares are $3000 R/T, why does it matter that departure tax + landing fees is $200 to $300? The success of these routes just depend on their ability to fill J cabin with O&D traffic.

A330 doesn't make sense right now, because it would add additional fleet complexity. They can always just put these lighter configured A321LRs on JFK/EWR-LAX if TATL doesn't work.

They really just need to serve airports with premium demand. And that to me is not STN. LGW on the other hand has demonstrated that it does have plenty of premium demand to JFK and BOS.

Also, the elephant in the room is the complete lack of TATL demand right now and nobody knows how much demand will be there in July. I would be shocked if they operate 2x on BOS-STN.

Seat1D wrote:
With the link the o p provided I'm having trouble finding exactly where it says they are flying to STN and LGW.

Has anyone else been able to find it?

I find this news rather hard to believe. Has JetBlue formally announced what airports they will fly to?


It just says they got slots at STN for BOS flight and LGW for JFK flights. JetBlue has made announcements. I fully expect them to fight for slots at LHR until last minute. And once DY goes under, LGW slots will be more widely available too. At this point, all the incumbent airlines are hiding behind the slot waiver. VS is not giving up any of its slots at LGW despite no interest in flying out of there anytime soon.
 
chonetsao
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:30 pm

I took the liberty to gather some information about the Cambridge Research corridor. First is a map to show the physical location of Cambridge research corridor to Stanstead airport:

https://www.chesterfordresearchpark.com/location/

Anyone who wish to understand the geography could see why Stanstead is important to the research corridor.

Then I am posting some links of few of the major business parks with their businesses. People interested could see what business is currently in the park and the connection to New England regions.

First is Chesterford Research Park:
https://www.chesterfordresearchpark.com/occupiers/

Second is the Cambridge Science Park:
https://www.cambridgesciencepark.co.uk/ ... directory/

Third is Cambridge Research Park, however their website is buggy and it may not show up correctly.
http://www.cambridgeresearchpark.com/the-park/occupiers

I hope above information helps.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:39 pm

Does anyone really see BOS-STN working?


Yes, I do. As others have said, there's a nice little tech corridor in there to serve. Perhaps more importantly, this could be seen as a test the waters and penetrate the market type of a situation - get in, check things out, establish a presence, perhaps arrange a few more codeshares to increase cross-traffic, and then expand into Heathrow and/or Gatwick.

I think a number of people are discounting Stanstead as too far or too distant from London proper. The fact is that it really isn't all that bad assuming the mass transit is working and on time. Plus, flying into outlying airports is preferred by some anxious to avoid the Heathrow insanity during peak hours.

I see this working in the short term, and then seeing Jetblue fighting like the dickens to secure slots at Heathrow and Gatwick for the long term. If successful, perhaps they'll start looking further afield at Scotland, for example, if the market can bear the traffic.

Best of luck to them!
 
RvA
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:56 pm

I hope this works for JetBlue. STN may be close to the research corridor that keeps being mentioned, but how many people there that travel frequently are member of a frequent flyer programme? Likely they will need to go to more places than BOS or somewhere beyond on the B6 network, so which programme are they saving up points with? I‘m guessing likely BAs or Virgin (or partners).
If JetBlue can offer good value connections to NYC/MCO etc. I think they have a chance in peak season to make this work. But somehow cannot really see it be much of a threat to BA‘s what, 3-4x daily flights (before Corona)?
 
catiii
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:17 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
catiii wrote:
Except JetBlue announced a refresh of the Mint soft product today. And you know they're going to have to change the hard product as well. I also wouldn't assume that the hard product you see for TCON would be the hard product across the Atlantic.

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/jetblu ... -amenities


In fairness that does look like a nice domestic product. Perhaps a little more is still needed for the F&B offering on transatlantic services, but its not far off. I still think STN is the wrong airport for a 136 seat NEO. The landing charges at LHR will make it very expensive per seat too. A reasonable density A330 seems like a better, more flexible, platform to me. I had imagined that the NEOs would be interoperable with the MINT fleet, helping to increase utilisation. That does not seem like it will be possible.


Again, it's the wrong assumption to make to think that the domestic product is/will be the same as the TATL product.
 
hbernal1
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Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:17 pm

Gee, that was a massive letdown. Oh well - 2021 predictions anyone?
 
AC4500
Posts: 772
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:21 pm

lightsaber wrote:
AC4500 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Does anyone really see BOS-STN working?

It'll be tough, but not impossible, IMO.

It'll depend on how much O&D low-cost traffic B6 can attract.

I agree tough. The advantage of flying an economical narrowbody is this is possible it might work, but less than ideal.

I'd bet the flight is moved to LGW or LHR as soon as slots are available.

Lightsaber
PS JetBlue has good connections, that might be enough if traffic is returning next summer.

I think B6 would have a better chance at reaching connecting traffic if it was JFK-STN. I'm willing to bet that this route is going to have to have to rely almost entirely on O&D traffic. Even if demand for summer 2021 were to match summer 2019, I would still be skeptical on this route's succes.
 
Ishrion
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:31 pm

The LHR S21 Coordination Report is out.

JetBlue applied for slots but did not receive them. Only Shenzhen Airlines received minimal slots.
Last edited by Ishrion on Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1488
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:36 pm

Ishrion wrote:
The LHR S21 Coordination Report is out.

JetBlue applied for slots but did not receive them. Only Shenzhen Airlines received a few minimal slots.

It's clear that B6 hopes to serve LHR but is currently unable to do so. I am not sure why some are pretending that STN, and even LGW, were some master stroke of genius when it's clear those were the contingency to being denied LHR slots.
 
User avatar
LuxuryTravelled
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:01 pm

With Stansted they are looking to lure the big tech companies, there is a big tech community around Cambridge and in East London. It isn’t a completely low cost airport - Emirates was successfully operating a 777 there, and Air India had a few services to India.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10541
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:11 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
The LHR S21 Coordination Report is out.

JetBlue applied for slots but did not receive them. Only Shenzhen Airlines received a few minimal slots.

It's clear that B6 hopes to serve LHR but is currently unable to do so. I am not sure why some are pretending that STN, and even LGW, were some master stroke of genius when it's clear those were the contingency to being denied LHR slots.

I don't think STN and LGW are a contingency. Buying LHR slots IS the contingency of being denied FREE LHR slots. They will go into LHR but obviously were/are hoping to get free slots there.
 
VS11
Posts: 1731
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:16 pm

Ishrion wrote:
The LHR S21 Coordination Report is out.

JetBlue applied for slots but did not receive them. Only Shenzhen Airlines received minimal slots.


Does that include the remedy slots that the UK competition regulator is awarding for Boston to London?
 
nine4nine
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:52 pm

Are LHR slots transferable from one carrier to a partner airline operating a codeshare? Say AA has 12 LHR slots but only plans to utilize 9 of them can they transfer the unused slots to B6?

Only reason I ask is that AA just announced a major cut to LHR flying, would this be a way for B6 to get 2-3 LHR slots at the behest of the AA partnership?
 
MAH4546
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:57 pm

nine4nine wrote:
Are LHR slots transferable from one carrier to a partner airline operating a codeshare? Say AA has 12 LHR slots but only plans to utilize 9 of them can they transfer the unused slots to B6?

Only reason I ask is that AA just announced a major cut to LHR flying, would this be a way for B6 to get 2-3 LHR slots at the behest of the AA partnership?


The AA/B6 partnership does not include trans-Atlantic flying.

Yes, AA can lease B6 LHR slots. But what good is that? The reductions are temporary and currently last for one month.
 
RvA
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:33 pm

LuxuryTravelled wrote:
With Stansted they are looking to lure the big tech companies, there is a big tech community around Cambridge and in East London. It isn’t a completely low cost airport - Emirates was successfully operating a 777 there, and Air India had a few services to India.


Lure the big tech companies not in central London that is then. But even still, I think they are aiming this as US based flyers who fly JetBlue and people who are 100% price focused.
Business travellers also need to go somewhere else than BOS or NYC, you’d think, so corporate contracts will still focus on the 3 alliances, 1 in particular more than the others if we’re talking UK based folks. And for non contracted business travellers I bet their private collection of FF points will still make them be drawn more to the home airlines anyway.

Good luck to B6, I hope this works but I can’t see this being a goldmine for them.
 
aviator2000
Posts: 178
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:40 pm

I don't understand what's the piont of serving two different airports in the same city, especially when the routes are new. Wouldn't it make more sense for Jetblue to consolidate all of its flights to one airport in London? I don't think slots should be an issue in Gatwick, not in the current scenario at least.
 
N770WD
Posts: 93
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:00 pm

alfa164 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
What do those slot allocations mean in terms of daily flights?

that seems to be 2 daily flights to BOS and 1 to JFK. That covers the 3 A321LRs they are taking next year.


One daily BOS-STN is dubious, at best. Two daily is looking for a financial disaster.


It's wrong to think the traffic isn't there ex STN, or that premium passengers won't originate there. They will and did before. In 2007 MAXjet, Eos and Silverjet were carrying an average of 50 revenue premium passengers per departure from STN/LTN to New York, at fares that weren't dissimilar to what Mint sells for. In the fall of 2007 they were carrying 8,000 passengers per month directionally LON-NYC. While Las Vegas also worked for MAXjet (for different reasons - this was before Open Skies) the other premium value markets tried didn't work, including Washington. As long as JetBlue is going to be connecting passengers via BOS to other US points, and can aggregate enough traffic, I think this will be work out OK. They won't get the same yield profile they would at Heathrow, but as a smart airline guru I know likes to say, airlines need routes they can call their own. In this case, at this time, JetBlue is going to get a chance to see if a secondary airport play works.
 
dfw88
Posts: 188
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:07 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
The LHR S21 Coordination Report is out.

JetBlue applied for slots but did not receive them. Only Shenzhen Airlines received a few minimal slots.

It's clear that B6 hopes to serve LHR but is currently unable to do so. I am not sure why some are pretending that STN, and even LGW, were some master stroke of genius when it's clear those were the contingency to being denied LHR slots.


Thank you for being a voice of reason here. The STN tech corridor theory is pretty outlandish. Surely, if there were companies with corporate contracts (as someone implied upthread) looking for TATL STN service someone (BA?) would have launched just such a service a few years ago, at the height of the latest air travel peak. Applying Occam's Razor to the situation give high probability to STN being a simple backup for not getting the slots they want. We'll see what happens when DY drops the LGW slots (should they go under). If B6 immediately drops STN for more LGW it will be pretty clear.
 
phllax
Posts: 703
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:18 pm

I have a feeling that they are trying to get LHR remedy slots and will be awarded them since they seem to be the only US carrier actively trying to get in there.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2558
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:25 pm

aviator2000 wrote:
I don't understand what's the piont of serving two different airports in the same city, especially when the routes are new. Wouldn't it make more sense for Jetblue to consolidate all of its flights to one airport in London? I don't think slots should be an issue in Gatwick, not in the current scenario at least.


This feels more like the let down of almost getting all the numbers for the winning lottery ticket.
You didn't win the big prize but go a few numbers for a smaller pay out.





Flyguy
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 3162
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:46 pm

I see a lot of flip-flopping arguing that B6 offering STN-BOS would be p2p or hub traffic, that there is a research corridor, that EK have made it work means that B6 is bound to make a fortune, that no-one has ever done STN to a hub before, which ignores AA's short-lived service to JFK. Eos and MaxJet and Primera went bust flying JFK-STN. Research travel has literally stopped thanks to COVID and there is no sign of 2021s conferences being in-person affairs. There is no doubt that STN has a massive catchment area and that there will be demand. The question is if an airline can consistently make money offering BOS-STN on a 138 seater narrow body aircraft?

phllax wrote:
I have a feeling that they are trying to get LHR remedy slots and will be awarded them since they seem to be the only US carrier actively trying to get in there.


Absolutely! I don't think the remedy slots would be through the usual ACL application process. They are AA/IAG slots from LHR or LGW airports to enable competitors to begin or increase non-stop flights between London and Boston, Dallas and Miami. In the earlier ruling JFK was also included, but the threshold for divesture was not met. It is entirely conceivable that B6 could get enough remedy and new slots at LGW to operate, I'm less sure about LHR, but the BOS service would be possible.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1488
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Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:01 pm

nine4nine wrote:
Are LHR slots transferable from one carrier to a partner airline operating a codeshare? Say AA has 12 LHR slots but only plans to utilize 9 of them can they transfer the unused slots to B6?

Only reason I ask is that AA just announced a major cut to LHR flying, would this be a way for B6 to get 2-3 LHR slots at the behest of the AA partnership?

Why would AA do that though? To the extent that AA requires less slots at LHR, why wouldn't they keep those slots "in-house" with one of their transatlantic JV partners (BA, IB, etc.)?
 
donvag
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:27 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:32 pm

Who knows if STN BOS will work. UAL (former Continental) did a VERY good job making people think that flying into EWR is flying into New York. EWR is only convenient if you live in certain parts of Manhattan. To get to Manhattan quickly is expensive, to take public transportation you have to change stations several instances. If the price is right, people will come.
 
flyby519
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:41 pm

Maybe planning Ryanair and/or Easyjet partnerships with their STN and LGW hubs?

Yes yes I know these carriers historically haven’t been big on partnerships, but pandemic and all...
 
nine4nine
Posts: 836
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:54 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
Are LHR slots transferable from one carrier to a partner airline operating a codeshare? Say AA has 12 LHR slots but only plans to utilize 9 of them can they transfer the unused slots to B6?

Only reason I ask is that AA just announced a major cut to LHR flying, would this be a way for B6 to get 2-3 LHR slots at the behest of the AA partnership?

Why would AA do that though? To the extent that AA requires less slots at LHR, why wouldn't they keep those slots "in-house" with one of their transatlantic JV partners (BA, IB, etc.)?



Capacity? Until things level for the foreseeable future I doubt all those slots will be utilized by AA for quite sometime. Why not codeshare on smaller metal rather than sending half full 77W’s
 
RvA
Posts: 524
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:59 pm

nine4nine wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
Are LHR slots transferable from one carrier to a partner airline operating a codeshare? Say AA has 12 LHR slots but only plans to utilize 9 of them can they transfer the unused slots to B6?

Only reason I ask is that AA just announced a major cut to LHR flying, would this be a way for B6 to get 2-3 LHR slots at the behest of the AA partnership?

Why would AA do that though? To the extent that AA requires less slots at LHR, why wouldn't they keep those slots "in-house" with one of their transatlantic JV partners (BA, IB, etc.)?



Capacity? Until things level for the foreseeable future I doubt all those slots will be utilized by AA for quite sometime. Why not codeshare on smaller metal rather than sending half full 77W’s


Why codeshare on JetBlue when they have a joint venture with BA who they can legally coordinate schedules etc. with and share the revenue?
 
chonetsao
Posts: 990
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:13 pm

dfw88 wrote:
Thank you for being a voice of reason here. The STN tech corridor theory is pretty outlandish. Surely, if there were companies with corporate contracts (as someone implied upthread) looking for TATL STN service someone (BA?) would have launched just such a service a few years ago, at the height of the latest air travel peak. Applying Occam's Razor to the situation give high probability to STN being a simple backup for not getting the slots they want. We'll see what happens when DY drops the LGW slots (should they go under). If B6 immediately drops STN for more LGW it will be pretty clear.


Have you considered that:
1, BA have a strong service in LHR and they said as much they want to build TATL around Heathrow?
2, Cambridge research and development was only become prominent in last 10 years?
3, A321XLR which can make the long thin route work is only available in last year or two?

If you consider the Stanstead theory outlandish, have you looked at the success of Austin in recent years while nobody believed BA would achieve any success as it is too close to DFW and IAH at the beginning? Have you looked at North Carolina triangle to see both CLT and RDU could support TATL service while RDU is so close to AA hub CLT? In your theory, airlines should just fly to DFW or IAH and be done with it and forget about Austin, and airline should concentrate on CLT instead of flying to RDU as well, after all, both station with their connection to IT and pharma is outlandish.

What I am saying is, there are recently success history on TATL routes involved with a upstarting research centres or newly emerged IT centres. I am not saying jetblue's BOS-STN would be next, but there are models (Austin, Raleigh/Durham) there for them to make a great case study.

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