Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6514
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:39 pm

Major schedule cuts coming this weekend for “cash preservation”
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:56 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Major schedule cuts coming this weekend for “cash preservation”


Like last minute cancellations or for the winter?
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2660
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:08 pm

I really cannot see how LHR would be the holy grail for B6 unless they can offer frequency..... Most people seem to forget this vital part of the equation...
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:13 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
LAXLHR wrote:
People need to stop being hung up on LHR as all or nothing.

LGW is great, and STN can work if the carrier/price is good.

- ALL 3 airports have their pros/cons on reaching them.

B6 will do well.


so B6 should give up on trying to get LHR? Its clear that the B6 "people" know that LHR is the airport they want/need to fly into, otherwise LHR wouldn't have been choice #1.


B6 should have spent the $ to get LHR slots instead of half-vasting it with STN. News of LHR slot buys/leases is routinely reported on a.net. A carrier needs to fly where people want to fly, or suffer trash yields by cutting avg fares to convince them that XXX is (almost as) good. This is why WN is starting flying to ORD, IAH and MIA even though it has long had sizeable operations at nearby airports.


They haven’t made an announcement as to which London airport(s) they will be flying to. They are still working different angles/options. I would be surprised if they end up using the STN slots.
 
User avatar
flyingphil
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 2:56 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:15 pm

Stansted
Seems to be a lot of snobbery and out dated thinking regarding using Stansted Airport
It is certainly not in the middle of nowhere... connected to Central London by train into Liverpool Street in the City, plus regular coach services into Central London.
Its right next to the M11 motorway for motorists too.
In easy reach of the tech hub of Cambridge.. also easy connections to the emerging area of Stratford in East London.
The facilities are on a par with all the other London Airports.. always had an ok experience using Stansted.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10439
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:16 pm

LAXLHR wrote:
People need to stop being hung up on LHR as all or nothing.

LGW is great, and STN can work if the carrier/price is good.

- ALL 3 airports have their pros/cons on reaching them.

B6 will do well.


I can tell you that for us, STN would be by far the best option since my family lives in Peterborough and it's always a PITA to get there from either LHR or LGW. Whether there will be enough people who find STN appealing it's still to be seen. But on a personal level I would love a BOS-STN link :)

trueblew wrote:
Does the aircraft not require specific optional equipment in order to be approved for addition to the ETOPS list?

In the case of modern A320 family and most likely 737 family, no. In the early days of ETOPS yes, there were requirements such as voice satellite links and other technologies but today that's all standard. Some people often confuse ETOPS with over water requirements which do require additional equipment such as life rafts and flotation devices. Once you start going into greater than ETOPS 180 which is the domain of widebodies then there are certain system requirements such as greater fire suppression capabilities, oxygen storage, etc. Aircraft ETOPS certification centers predominantly around engine reliability and certification. Engine manufacturers don't make ETOPS and non-ETOPS certified engines for the same model. There are plenty of ETOPS threads on this forum, we don't really need to hash it out here so I'll just finish by saying this: Jet Blue does not need ETOPS to fly the occasional sub on a BOS/JFK-LON route. The detour around ETOPS is about 10%. So the entire premise for this discussion which was "they need to have a spare LR aircraft" is a mute point anyway.
Last edited by airbazar on Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
santi319
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:17 pm

Only in a-net somehow suddenly STN is a premiere airport because B6 flies there from BOS with a 138 seat A321. Haha
 
Capricorn
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
LAXLHR wrote:
People need to stop being hung up on LHR as all or nothing.

LGW is great, and STN can work if the carrier/price is good.

- ALL 3 airports have their pros/cons on reaching them.

B6 will do well.


so B6 should give up on trying to get LHR? Its clear that the B6 "people" know that LHR is the airport they want/need to fly into, otherwise LHR wouldn't have been choice #1.


B6 should have spent the $ to get LHR slots instead of half-vasting it with STN. News of LHR slot buys/leases is routinely reported on a.net. A carrier needs to fly where people want to fly, or suffer trash yields by cutting avg fares to convince them that XXX is (almost as) good. This is why WN is starting flying to ORD, IAH and MIA even though it has long had sizeable operations at nearby airports.


While I would agree, I think in C19 times there is no need to rush in spending big $ for LHR slots, as the future of more than one airline that serves LHR is seriously in doubt. I think that there will be openings at LHR and that B6 will make use of them. I agree that many inbound travellers do strongly prefer LHR or LGW over the other airports and if this is the market that B6 is after, they ideally would serves these airports.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2665
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:42 pm

airbazar wrote:
LAXLHR wrote:
People need to stop being hung up on LHR as all or nothing.

LGW is great, and STN can work if the carrier/price is good.

- ALL 3 airports have their pros/cons on reaching them.

B6 will do well.


I can tell you that for us, STN would be by far the best option since my family lives in Peterborough and it's always a PITA to get there from either LHR or LGW. Whether there will be enough people who find STN appealing it's still to be seen. But on a personal level I would love a BOS-STN link :)

trueblew wrote:
Does the aircraft not require specific optional equipment in order to be approved for addition to the ETOPS list?

In the case of modern A320 family and most likely 737 family, no. In the early days of ETOPS yes, there were requirements such as voice satellite links and other technologies but today that's all standard. Some people often confuse ETOPS with over water requirements which do require additional equipment such as life rafts and flotation devices. Once you start going into greater than ETOPS 180 which is the domain of widebodies then there are certain system requirements such as greater fire suppression capabilities, oxygen storage, etc. Aircraft ETOPS certification centers predominantly around engine reliability and certification. Engine manufacturers don't make ETOPS and non-ETOPS certified engines for the same model. There are plenty of ETOPS threads on this forum, we don't really need to hash it out here so I'll just finish by saying this: Jet Blue does not need ETOPS to fly the occasional sub on a BOS/JFK-LON route. The detour around ETOPS is about 10%. So the entire premise for this discussion which was "they need to have a spare LR aircraft" is a mute point anyway.

They do require HF radios and NAVS which aren’t on a non-ETOPS plane. Plus ETOPS planes are held to a different maintenance standard and require more preventative and regular maintenance plus B6 doesn’t have an approved ETOPS program.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5207
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:51 pm

I would be shocked if b6 can't get into lhr or enough to out it all in lgw in time. So many airlines are hanging by a thread. I bet we see B6 end up in LHR eventually. They just need a city to start service but I'm sure they have a plan. So many airlines are hanging on , I bet some lhr slots open and does a new carrier gets some priority? Too much craziness to push out cash right now to LHR slots , some airlines plural serving LHR will fold.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6514
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:00 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Major schedule cuts coming this weekend for “cash preservation”


Like last minute cancellations or for the winter?



Both
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:00 pm

santi319 wrote:
Only in a-net somehow suddenly STN is a premiere airport because B6 flies there from BOS with a 138 seat A321. Haha

I’ll be the first to ask what happened to the hugely lucrative tech corridor as B6 holds out for slots at LGW/LHR and doesn’t even bother to fly to STN.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:16 pm

santi319 wrote:
Only in a-net somehow suddenly STN is a premiere airport because B6 flies there from BOS with a 138 seat A321. Haha

It's not JetBlue fans that are saying STN is a premier airport, but the people who actually like STN. You are intentionally misleading here. Please stop misleading people.

I would be shocked if JetBlue ends up flying BOS-STN.

oldannyboy wrote:
I really cannot see how LHR would be the holy grail for B6 unless they can offer frequency..... Most people seem to forget this vital part of the equation...


If they can get 2 slots for BOS (remedial slots maybe), then that will be enough to compete on schedule there. I'm sure they'd want more than that, but that will take time. For JFK, they might need to just start off at LGW. Keep in mind, they are only taking 6 LR deliveries in 2021 and 2022. That means they will operate at most 2x BOS + 4x NYC or 3x to both by end of 2022.

They have said they intend to keep adding to London until they can have a permanent affect on fare there.

Possibilities of getting more LHR slots:
1) Airlines with slots (like VS) go belly up
2) LHR issue more slots for new entrants as slot waivers are extended and slots are not being fully utilized
3) Airlines with too many slots like ET looking to lease slot
 
CanadianRedneck
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:24 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:41 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Major schedule cuts coming this weekend for “cash preservation”


Like last minute cancellations or for the winter?



Both


That is tragic, wonder which hub(s) will see the largest slashing.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:00 pm

CanadianRedneck wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

Like last minute cancellations or for the winter?



Both


That is tragic, wonder which hub(s) will see the largest slashing.


Looking at you BOS...
 
mattyfitzg
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:50 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:14 pm

Blerg wrote:
So how far into Europe can they realistically and economically operate the A321? Can it reach Paris and Amsterdam or are the British Isles as good as it gets?


Another, now defunct, transatlantic carrier were planning to operate EWR-TXL with regular A321neos with a 198 seat config until they took delivery of 737MAX's. That was probably stretching the legs of the A21N to the absolute limits.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1954
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:21 pm

Nice to see the Neos coming into EWR now. Hope it last.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5010
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:36 pm

mattyfitzg wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So how far into Europe can they realistically and economically operate the A321? Can it reach Paris and Amsterdam or are the British Isles as good as it gets?


Another, now defunct, transatlantic carrier were planning to operate EWR-TXL with regular A321neos with a 198 seat config until they took delivery of 737MAX's. That was probably stretching the legs of the A21N to the absolute limits.


Interesting, was it Primera or someone else? Didn't UA operate this route with the B757 in the past and didn't it require a tech stop for refueling in winter?

B6 should operate as many routes as it can from JFK to Europe simply because O&D is so much larger while transfers can definitely help. Maybe EI is launching MAN-JFK as a preemptive strike against B6.
 
mattyfitzg
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:50 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:46 pm

Blerg wrote:

Interesting, was it Primera or someone else?


It was indeed. I believe it was a intended to be a Summer seasonal route, but shortly after they announced it, they went into administration so we never got to see the real capabilities of the 21N.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4296
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:56 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Major schedule cuts coming this weekend for “cash preservation”


Like last minute cancellations or for the winter?


B6 really needs to start publishing a more realistic schedule. It is not customer friendly at all. I recognize the other carriers do this as well but B6 does not have the ability to reroute passengers via their hubs in many of their markets like the legacy carriers do. These passengers are OOL, stuck buying more expensive close-in tickets on other carriers while seething at JetBlue.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3677
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:01 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
santi319 wrote:
Only in a-net somehow suddenly STN is a premiere airport because B6 flies there from BOS with a 138 seat A321. Haha

I’ll be the first to ask what happened to the hugely lucrative tech corridor as B6 holds out for slots at LGW/LHR and doesn’t even bother to fly to STN.


they will move their offices to Canary if B6 doesn't fly to STN
 
jmdc861
Posts: 155
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:05 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:22 pm

Gatwick ? Give me a break!
 
jplatts
Posts: 4722
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:47 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
B6 really needs to start publishing a more realistic schedule. It is not customer friendly at all. I recognize the other carriers do this as well but B6 does not have the ability to reroute passengers via their hubs in many of their markets like the legacy carriers do. These passengers are OOL, stuck buying more expensive close-in tickets on other carriers while seething at JetBlue.


AA, DL, UA, and AS can all also rebook passengers on other airlines if a connection is no longer possible on the originally ticketed airline, whereas B6 doesn't have the same ability.

While WN doesn't have the level of flexibility that AA, DL, UA, or AS does, WN does have much greater flexibility than B6 does as WN can reroute some of the O&D and connecting passengers through other cities. The places where WN faces significant reaccommodation issues are primarily in smaller Texas markets, Midwestern and East Coast stations with a minimal WN presence, and international destinations whereas B6 faces significant accommodation issues throughout its entire network and to a much bigger extent than WN.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2827
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:53 pm

What is the reason JetBlue did not get any LHR slots? It is hard to believe, considering the UK and European aviation industry is on life support and close to bankruptcy. In fact, there should be tons of slots available.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 557
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:58 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
What is the reason JetBlue did not get any LHR slots? It is hard to believe, considering the UK and European aviation industry is on life support and close to bankruptcy. In fact, there should be tons of slots available.

JetBlue hasn’t yet announced where they are going. They have no obligation to use the slots at STN they were awarded, and work on LHR slots (and more LGW slots) is ongoing. So, I don’t know why they didn’t get any yet, but they seem optimistic they will end up with some.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:08 pm

Mikeer50 wrote:
I’m not familiar with the geography of London. Why has LHR historically been the airport everyone wants to get into? I’m assuming it gives the best connection to downtown London? Thanks.


Not necessarily and it depends entirely on actually where to want to go in London, or surrounding are. Also, there is no such thing as "downtown London" in the American sense of the phrase. LHR, being brutally honest, in an airport for ego, both for airlines and a lot of passengers (the myth on a.net implies it should be the only airport allowed to exist). It has important virtues most certainly, but equally certainly it is not the be-all, end-all London airport.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1959
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:19 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Does anyone really see BOS-STN working?


London is London. At the other end, Boston has connections on Jetblue to all over the USA.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:37 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
B6 really needs to start publishing a more realistic schedule. It is not customer friendly at all. I recognize the other carriers do this as well but B6 does not have the ability to reroute passengers via their hubs in many of their markets like the legacy carriers do. These passengers are OOL, stuck buying more expensive close-in tickets on other carriers while seething at JetBlue.

That's where the AA partnership comes in. Until then, they will have to try to reroute people through JFK/BOS/FLL.

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Nice to see the Neos coming into EWR now. Hope it last.

Once they have enough NEO in their system, I'm sure EWR will get it pretty often.

Blerg wrote:
mattyfitzg wrote:
Blerg wrote:
So how far into Europe can they realistically and economically operate the A321? Can it reach Paris and Amsterdam or are the British Isles as good as it gets?


Another, now defunct, transatlantic carrier were planning to operate EWR-TXL with regular A321neos with a 198 seat config until they took delivery of 737MAX's. That was probably stretching the legs of the A21N to the absolute limits.


Interesting, was it Primera or someone else? Didn't UA operate this route with the B757 in the past and didn't it require a tech stop for refueling in winter?

B6 should operate as many routes as it can from JFK to Europe simply because O&D is so much larger while transfers can definitely help. Maybe EI is launching MAN-JFK as a preemptive strike against B6.


They definitely should. Aside form the O&D stuff, there is bound to be quite a bit of demand from British isles to Florida and Caribbeans. They can start off with London and maybe Paris and AMS. But they should also try some secondary British markets like MAN, BHX, EDI and BFS. Those markets don't have direct flights to the islands. There is no reason JetBlue can't try to capture some of that secondary British market to Orlando, south Florida or Caribbean leisure traffic.

From that perspective, it'd be interesting to see if JetBlue end up with more TATL flights out of BOS or JFK. They certainly will have more leisure connection out of JFK available. And with more slots at JFK, they can offer the full breadth of connection option they didn't have before.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5886
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:22 pm

chonetsao wrote:
If you consider the Stanstead theory outlandish, have you looked at the success of Austin in recent years while nobody believed BA would achieve any success as it is too close to DFW and IAH at the beginning? Have you looked at North Carolina triangle to see both CLT and RDU could support TATL service while RDU is so close to AA hub CLT? In your theory, airlines should just fly to DFW or IAH and be done with it and forget about Austin, and airline should concentrate on CLT instead of flying to RDU as well, after all, both station with their connection to IT and pharma is outlandish.

What I am saying is, there are recently success history on TATL routes involved with a upstarting research centres or newly emerged IT centres. I am not saying jetblue's BOS-STN would be next, but there are models (Austin, Raleigh/Durham) there for them to make a great case study.


That is a bad comparison. Austin is a completely different market.

STN is just another airport within a major metro area which already has plenty of long-haul connections (LHR/LGW). The good comparison would be long-haul carriers servicing OAK and SJC instead/in addition of SFO, or FLL instead/in addition to MIA. For instance BA served OAK, SJC and FLL for a while and left (before COVID). Norwegian moved from OAK to SFO and from FLL to MIA. No matter Silicon Valley or the cruise traffic in FLL or 1 million anet threads making a case about OAK/SJC/FLL.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5010
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:41 pm

What kind of departure and arrivals times would B6 have if they were to run one or two daily flights to Europe?When do their FL and CA flights arrive and depart?
 
mattyfitzg
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:50 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:50 pm

I don't know why people think if an airline flying out of LHR went into administration that JetBlue could swoop in and snap up the slots overnight.
ACL would look to re-allocate the slots of course, however, it very much depends on the administration/administrator.

Take for example when Monarch when into administration with a healthy portfolio of landing slots(for both the time of collapse, and the following summer) at various UK airports. ACL, the group that manages the slots, sought to revoke those assigned to Monarch and redistribute them to airlines still flying.
KPMG the administrator then filed an appeal, and a court ruled that Monarch should have its slots at Luton and Gatwick airports allocated as if it were still flying, and they were then sold on to the highest bidder by KPMG to pay off creditors in a process which took over a month and a half.
Considering the value of LHR slots, it goes without saying that any administrator worth their salt would file a similar appeal, and in the case of Virgin, I'd put money on KPMG being their administrator too should the worst happen.
If this were to happen, the vultures would come flocking for said slots, and id imagine JetBlue would need to be prepared to drop some serious, eye watering amounts of cash.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:15 pm

tphuang wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
B6 really needs to start publishing a more realistic schedule. It is not customer friendly at all. I recognize the other carriers do this as well but B6 does not have the ability to reroute passengers via their hubs in many of their markets like the legacy carriers do. These passengers are OOL, stuck buying more expensive close-in tickets on other carriers while seething at JetBlue.

That's where the AA partnership comes in. Until then, they will have to try to reroute people through JFK/BOS/FLL.

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Nice to see the Neos coming into EWR now. Hope it last.

Once they have enough NEO in their system, I'm sure EWR will get it pretty often.

Blerg wrote:
mattyfitzg wrote:

Another, now defunct, transatlantic carrier were planning to operate EWR-TXL with regular A321neos with a 198 seat config until they took delivery of 737MAX's. That was probably stretching the legs of the A21N to the absolute limits.


Interesting, was it Primera or someone else? Didn't UA operate this route with the B757 in the past and didn't it require a tech stop for refueling in winter?

B6 should operate as many routes as it can from JFK to Europe simply because O&D is so much larger while transfers can definitely help. Maybe EI is launching MAN-JFK as a preemptive strike against B6.


They definitely should. Aside form the O&D stuff, there is bound to be quite a bit of demand from British isles to Florida and Caribbeans. They can start off with London and maybe Paris and AMS. But they should also try some secondary British markets like MAN, BHX, EDI and BFS. Those markets don't have direct flights to the islands. There is no reason JetBlue can't try to capture some of that secondary British market to Orlando, south Florida or Caribbean leisure traffic.

From that perspective, it'd be interesting to see if JetBlue end up with more TATL flights out of BOS or JFK. They certainly will have more leisure connection out of JFK available. And with more slots at JFK, they can offer the full breadth of connection option they didn't have before.

Connecting the UK/Europe to the Caribbean via JFK is not a great option. B6 would have to compete with and seriously undercut on price a number of already existing nonstop and one stop options. On top of that, the timing on connections would be terrible. Most leisure destinations have early morning departures out of NYC. How would they connect those without overnights or less than ideal departure times out of LHR or from NYC to the islands? Geography is also less than ideal for Caribbean connections from Europe.

For Florida, the cost/competition issue is worse even though the schedule issue is slightly better. How much will they have to undercut on price to get people to ignore several existing nonstops and one stop connection possibilities with carriers more established in the market?
 
RvA
Posts: 519
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:21 pm

Vicenza wrote:
Mikeer50 wrote:
I’m not familiar with the geography of London. Why has LHR historically been the airport everyone wants to get into? I’m assuming it gives the best connection to downtown London? Thanks.


Not necessarily and it depends entirely on actually where to want to go in London, or surrounding are. Also, there is no such thing as "downtown London" in the American sense of the phrase. LHR, being brutally honest, in an airport for ego, both for airlines and a lot of passengers (the myth on a.net implies it should be the only airport allowed to exist). It has important virtues most certainly, but equally certainly it is not the be-all, end-all London airport.


It definitely shouldn’t be the only airport, especially as all (except LCY) serve more than just “London”.
However, I would go out on a limb and say LHR has better catchment of the affluent and the business focused travellers than LGW, LTN or STN. Plus with the amount of “legacy” airlines it provides good opportunities for interlining. JetBlue has interline agreements with quite a few airlines serving LHR, they don’t tend to serve STN. Also the markets they are going for are those who currently already fly out of LHR. STN doesn’t provide any additional value besides better access for some companies in that Cambridge corridor that today either go via LHR anyway, or via BHX even. (Connecting in AMS, FRA etc)
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:38 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
They definitely should. Aside form the O&D stuff, there is bound to be quite a bit of demand from British isles to Florida and Caribbeans. They can start off with London and maybe Paris and AMS. But they should also try some secondary British markets like MAN, BHX, EDI and BFS. Those markets don't have direct flights to the islands. There is no reason JetBlue can't try to capture some of that secondary British market to Orlando, south Florida or Caribbean leisure traffic.

From that perspective, it'd be interesting to see if JetBlue end up with more TATL flights out of BOS or JFK. They certainly will have more leisure connection out of JFK available. And with more slots at JFK, they can offer the full breadth of connection option they didn't have before.

Connecting the UK/Europe to the Caribbean via JFK is not a great option. B6 would have to compete with and seriously undercut on price a number of already existing nonstop and one stop options. On top of that, the timing on connections would be terrible. Most leisure destinations have early morning departures out of NYC. How would they connect those without overnights or less than ideal departure times out of LHR or from NYC to the islands?

For Florida, the cost/competition issue is worse even though the schedule issue is slightly better. How much will they have to undercut on price to get people to ignore several existing nonstops and one stop connection possibilities with carriers more established in the market?


https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... FYREsxZ0k9
no non-stop from EDI to MIA
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... UABSAGYAQI
no non-stop from EDI to MCO

I also did searches on MAN-MIA, BHX-MCO, BHX-MIA, BFS-MIA, BFS-MCO. No non-stop. If there is no non-stop to these secondary UK markets to MIA/MCO, I would find it hard to believe there would be non-stop to TPA or RSW.

Now, VS does have MAN-MCO, but who knows how much longer VS is going to last and what they would try from MAN even if they manage to hold on.

I see non-stop from MAN-BGI, but none to CUN, MBJ or PUJ or AUA.

Since you mentioned that connection at JFK is not good, I took a look at 1-stop option from MAN to AUA, CUN, MBJ and PUJ
- The vast majority of them involved very long layovers in US airports. As an example here
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... gYIARABGAA

So I'm just really confused at where these non-stop and convenient 1-stop options are?

More importantly, they don't need to really undercut competitors that much. They only have 138 seats to fill. If they are 70% O&D and 30% connection with 85% LF, they only need to fill 35 seats with connections per flight. And only a portion of that needs to be Florida and Caribbeans. Now if you are a legacy carrier operating on MAN-ATL/CLT/PHL with a 250 to 300 seat widebody. You might need to fill 150 seats with connections.
 
Ishrion
Posts: 3637
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:44 pm

tphuang wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
They definitely should. Aside form the O&D stuff, there is bound to be quite a bit of demand from British isles to Florida and Caribbeans. They can start off with London and maybe Paris and AMS. But they should also try some secondary British markets like MAN, BHX, EDI and BFS. Those markets don't have direct flights to the islands. There is no reason JetBlue can't try to capture some of that secondary British market to Orlando, south Florida or Caribbean leisure traffic.

From that perspective, it'd be interesting to see if JetBlue end up with more TATL flights out of BOS or JFK. They certainly will have more leisure connection out of JFK available. And with more slots at JFK, they can offer the full breadth of connection option they didn't have before.

Connecting the UK/Europe to the Caribbean via JFK is not a great option. B6 would have to compete with and seriously undercut on price a number of already existing nonstop and one stop options. On top of that, the timing on connections would be terrible. Most leisure destinations have early morning departures out of NYC. How would they connect those without overnights or less than ideal departure times out of LHR or from NYC to the islands?

For Florida, the cost/competition issue is worse even though the schedule issue is slightly better. How much will they have to undercut on price to get people to ignore several existing nonstops and one stop connection possibilities with carriers more established in the market?


https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... FYREsxZ0k9
no non-stop from EDI to MIA
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... UABSAGYAQI
no non-stop from EDI to MCO

I also did searches on MAN-MIA, BHX-MCO, BHX-MIA, BFS-MIA, BFS-MCO. No non-stop. If there is no non-stop to these secondary UK markets to MIA/MCO, I would find it hard to believe there would be non-stop to TPA or RSW.


TUI is launching flights to Orlando-Melbourne (MLB) from BHX, BRS, DSA, EDI, GLA, LGW, MAN, and NCL starting 2022.

They're basically shifting from Orlando-Sanford to Orlando-Melbourne. It's still technically meant for Orlando, but it's through a smaller/farther airport.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:38 pm

tphuang wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
They definitely should. Aside form the O&D stuff, there is bound to be quite a bit of demand from British isles to Florida and Caribbeans. They can start off with London and maybe Paris and AMS. But they should also try some secondary British markets like MAN, BHX, EDI and BFS. Those markets don't have direct flights to the islands. There is no reason JetBlue can't try to capture some of that secondary British market to Orlando, south Florida or Caribbean leisure traffic.

From that perspective, it'd be interesting to see if JetBlue end up with more TATL flights out of BOS or JFK. They certainly will have more leisure connection out of JFK available. And with more slots at JFK, they can offer the full breadth of connection option they didn't have before.

Connecting the UK/Europe to the Caribbean via JFK is not a great option. B6 would have to compete with and seriously undercut on price a number of already existing nonstop and one stop options. On top of that, the timing on connections would be terrible. Most leisure destinations have early morning departures out of NYC. How would they connect those without overnights or less than ideal departure times out of LHR or from NYC to the islands?

For Florida, the cost/competition issue is worse even though the schedule issue is slightly better. How much will they have to undercut on price to get people to ignore several existing nonstops and one stop connection possibilities with carriers more established in the market?


https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... FYREsxZ0k9
no non-stop from EDI to MIA
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... UABSAGYAQI
no non-stop from EDI to MCO

I also did searches on MAN-MIA, BHX-MCO, BHX-MIA, BFS-MIA, BFS-MCO. No non-stop. If there is no non-stop to these secondary UK markets to MIA/MCO, I would find it hard to believe there would be non-stop to TPA or RSW.

Now, VS does have MAN-MCO, but who knows how much longer VS is going to last and what they would try from MAN even if they manage to hold on.

I see non-stop from MAN-BGI, but none to CUN, MBJ or PUJ or AUA.

Since you mentioned that connection at JFK is not good, I took a look at 1-stop option from MAN to AUA, CUN, MBJ and PUJ
- The vast majority of them involved very long layovers in US airports. As an example here
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... gYIARABGAA

So I'm just really confused at where these non-stop and convenient 1-stop options are?

More importantly, they don't need to really undercut competitors that much. They only have 138 seats to fill. If they are 70% O&D and 30% connection with 85% LF, they only need to fill 35 seats with connections per flight. And only a portion of that needs to be Florida and Caribbeans. Now if you are a legacy carrier operating on MAN-ATL/CLT/PHL with a 250 to 300 seat widebody. You might need to fill 150 seats with connections.

PHL is also a terrible airport for connections to the Caribbean. In the example you cited, MAN-MBJ. VS/DL can get you there via ATL with a 3 hour layover in ATL. That easily beats out an overnight in JFK and would be cheaper overall for any passenger as they would not need to book an overnight hotel stay. https://flights.app.goo.gl/knLGj

MAN-CUN can be done entirely on VS/AF or VS/DL. https://flights.app.goo.gl/Dav3q

MAN-PUJ on AF https://flights.app.goo.gl/RdDKc

Look at the prices and the schedule, how would B6 compete with that via JFK?
 
NYC-air
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 6:59 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:08 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Does anyone really see BOS-STN working?


London is London. At the other end, Boston has connections on Jetblue to all over the USA.


The is obviously a very good point! Connecting at the USA mega-hubs on the majors can be a real hassle. Jetblue can offer a more intimate experience. T5 at JFK is compact and has its own customs hall. Same goes for their operation at Boston terminal C, which is conveniently right next to and just a short stroll from the customs hall in terminal D.

I rather like, for example, connecting in DUB on Aer Lingus versus the European megahubs like LHR and CDG. Aer Lingus does a lot of business off people like me. Same idea.
 
FARmd90
Posts: 482
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:49 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:14 pm

https://paxex.aero/2020/11/jetblue-flig ... agreement/

In some other news from Jetblue. The flight attendants voted “no” against their first contract offering. The results were 45% Yes, against 54% No. 3,773 voted in this round.

Which honestly I can not believe it was that close because the contract for me didn’t offer anything good and in most cases left everything as is with things getting worse.
 
User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1929
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:23 pm

hbernal1 wrote:
I don't think all that much will happen in 2021 - so I'll give my combined 2021/22 predictions:

1. Northeast predictions: EWR likely to keep getting routes that do well from JFK. I expect EWR-BNA/MSY/RDU/SAV to all be feasible domestic adds. More Caribbean and leisure is also likely. BOS and JFK will be very slow to come back. From BDL, I can see a Caribbean destination or DCA being added.

2. West Coast: LAX will see very modest expansion before MSC opens. More of the long-and-thin adds are likely, with the likeliest markets being HPN/JAX/PIT/PVD. It's possible that PVR/SJD are added and served from LAX. More service added to LAS/SFO. SFO will get some interesting adds: I can see BUF happening since Schumer wants it, but I think seasonal PSP gets added. In 2022, SNA is added with the A220s coming online and will get BOS/EWR/JFK.

3. Florida: MCO will only be added from other cities where B6 is expanding (MCO-CHS/RDU, LAS possible but less likely). More Midwest to Florida flying happens, with RSW/TPA being the main targets for expansion. Out of FLL, B6 might try to get more West Coast flying to beef up connections to the Caribbean. More frequency on FLL-LAS/PHX/SAN/SEA/SFO and I think DEN can be added. Beyond that, only DFW/MSP make sense for domestic adds unless IND or STL are added (possible). PBI will also be heavily targeted for expansion (though I can't think of where else would be good from PBI off the top of my head).


All of that is possible from EWR, really anything with multiples from JFK could be duplicated there with fewer departures.
BDL-SJU has run for many years on AA and then B6 via strong VFR traffic.

HPN won't be adding anything to the West Coast.. I think they pulled their A320 service from there due to the strange departure rules at that airport. Its based on a total number of passengers per half hour, possibly a runway issue for that far of a distance, but if the A220 can pull that off. That route would be beautiful

I'm wondering if SWF will return as well as worcester, MA. Not long ago SWF was bustling with DY's multiple cities along with B6, Allegiant and token AA to PHL and DTW on DL. Allegiant and American are all that is left now. DY was up to double daily to DUB until the MAX shutdown

PBI to HPN would work.......PBI is very heavy New York and Tri State area focused.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:24 pm

FARmd90 wrote:
https://paxex.aero/2020/11/jetblue-flight-attendants-reject-tentative-agreement/

In some other news from Jetblue. The flight attendants voted “no” against their first contract offering. The results were 45% Yes, against 54% No. 3,773 voted in this round.

Which honestly I can not believe it was that close because the contract for me didn’t offer anything good and in most cases left everything as is with things getting worse.


It was garbage. They were still going to allow and require working 18 hours in a row, domestic, and that was with having to clean the planes between legs. Oh, and a pay cut on top of that.
 
FARmd90
Posts: 482
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:49 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:26 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
FARmd90 wrote:
https://paxex.aero/2020/11/jetblue-flight-attendants-reject-tentative-agreement/

In some other news from Jetblue. The flight attendants voted “no” against their first contract offering. The results were 45% Yes, against 54% No. 3,773 voted in this round.

Which honestly I can not believe it was that close because the contract for me didn’t offer anything good and in most cases left everything as is with things getting worse.


It was garbage. They were still going to allow and require working 18 hours in a row, domestic, and that was with having to clean the planes between legs. Oh, and a pay cut on top of that.

Agreed among multiple other things.
 
FARmd90
Posts: 482
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:49 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:30 pm

spinkid wrote:
hbernal1 wrote:
I don't think all that much will happen in 2021 - so I'll give my combined 2021/22 predictions:

1. Northeast predictions: EWR likely to keep getting routes that do well from JFK. I expect EWR-BNA/MSY/RDU/SAV to all be feasible domestic adds. More Caribbean and leisure is also likely. BOS and JFK will be very slow to come back. From BDL, I can see a Caribbean destination or DCA being added.

2. West Coast: LAX will see very modest expansion before MSC opens. More of the long-and-thin adds are likely, with the likeliest markets being HPN/JAX/PIT/PVD. It's possible that PVR/SJD are added and served from LAX. More service added to LAS/SFO. SFO will get some interesting adds: I can see BUF happening since Schumer wants it, but I think seasonal PSP gets added. In 2022, SNA is added with the A220s coming online and will get BOS/EWR/JFK.

3. Florida: MCO will only be added from other cities where B6 is expanding (MCO-CHS/RDU, LAS possible but less likely). More Midwest to Florida flying happens, with RSW/TPA being the main targets for expansion. Out of FLL, B6 might try to get more West Coast flying to beef up connections to the Caribbean. More frequency on FLL-LAS/PHX/SAN/SEA/SFO and I think DEN can be added. Beyond that, only DFW/MSP make sense for domestic adds unless IND or STL are added (possible). PBI will also be heavily targeted for expansion (though I can't think of where else would be good from PBI off the top of my head).


All of that is possible from EWR, really anything with multiples from JFK could be duplicated there with fewer departures.
BDL-SJU has run for many years on AA and then B6 via strong VFR traffic.

HPN won't be adding anything to the West Coast.. I think they pulled their A320 service from there due to the strange departure rules at that airport. Its based on a total number of passengers per half hour, possibly a runway issue for that far of a distance, but if the A220 can pull that off. That route would be beautiful

I'm wondering if SWF will return as well as worcester, MA. Not long ago SWF was bustling with DY's multiple cities along with B6, Allegiant and token AA to PHL and DTW on DL. Allegiant and American are all that is left now. DY was up to double daily to DUB until the MAX shutdown

PBI to HPN would work.......PBI is very heavy New York and Tri State area focused.


Prior to the pandemic Jetblue flew the 320 into HPN multiple times a day from FLL, PBI and MCO. The 320 is no stranger to HPN and they are back to flying in there now since the station reopened. PBI-HPN is one the “golden routes” for HPN, always busy and full. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jetblue try some new stuff out of HPN with the 220. In one of the Jetblue threads I believe it was mentioned that the 223 could potentially make it to LAX from HPN. B6 seems to be very pleased with the performance of HPN these past few years I think.
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1669
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:33 pm

santi319 wrote:
Only in a-net somehow suddenly STN is a premiere airport because B6 flies there from BOS with a 138 seat A321. Haha


Actually I think a lot of people are shocked that B6 would even consider flying to STN with such a premium aircraft. However, LHR and perhaps even LGW slots may simply be too hard to come by - that is, needlessly expensive - for now. I still see no reason why B6 couldn't use its 2 daily LGW slots for 1x daily each BOS and JFK initially, while working behind the scenes to gain additional access at a reasonable price to LGW (and of course LHR).

This is a cheap chic airline that started serving Los Angeles via ONT (and later LGB and BUR), San Francisco via OAK, DC via IAD, Miami via FLL, and Houston via HOU. With the notable and surprising exception of MIA, B6 eventually gained access to the preferred primary airports. However, jetBlue FFers put up with service to less prestigious alternates for years. If B6 has to start off with some flights at STN, it wouldn't be without precedent.

In 10 or 20 years, B6 probably intends to operate exclusively from LHR. In the meantime, they can service London via LGW and, if absolutely necessarily for the first year or two until enough LGW or LHR slots come available, STN. It's good to see B6 so serious about following up on its promise to serve London, perhaps with the help of distant STN if necessary to start things things off. I highly doubt STN is any less convenient for London passengers than LGB and ONT were for folks living in or visiting LA that were loyal to JetBlue before the advent of VX (and B6's sudden decision to serve LAX that resulted).
 
catiii
Posts: 3889
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:59 pm

They're not going to STN. They said as much in an all hands yesterday. This whole thread is overblown.
 
Dreamliner2020
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:36 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:02 am

Just to put this whole argument to bed as we seem to be going round in circles... Stansted has a catchment area of approximately 10 million people living within an hour of the airport. That’s not to be sniffed at. We are talking two services a day on an aircraft kitted out with approximately 130 something seats. Not multiple A380 services.
Heathrow is great if you live close by. Stansted is great if you live close by. This of course can be said about any airport. The whole of London (or the South East for that matter) does not live on LHR’s doorstep. It does seem that a large majority of the workforce at Canary Wharf reside in Essex due to its public transport/rail connections. Stansted is in Essex for those of you unaware. You’d think it was located in some slum/ghetto area by some of the snobbery on this forum. Large parts of Essex and Hertfordshire are very affluent indeed. Anyone unfamiliar who reads these forums would imagine that the streets of Hounslow are paved with gold. They are not.
For those of us north of the Thames river or in the east of England, would no longer have to endure 1.5-2+ hour journey times to reach LHR/LGW.

There is life beyond the catchment of LHR. Now perhaps we should move on and just wait for JetBlue to make an announcement. The routes may never materialise as per the slot allocation anyway.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:12 am

Brickell305 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
Connecting the UK/Europe to the Caribbean via JFK is not a great option. B6 would have to compete with and seriously undercut on price a number of already existing nonstop and one stop options. On top of that, the timing on connections would be terrible. Most leisure destinations have early morning departures out of NYC. How would they connect those without overnights or less than ideal departure times out of LHR or from NYC to the islands?

For Florida, the cost/competition issue is worse even though the schedule issue is slightly better. How much will they have to undercut on price to get people to ignore several existing nonstops and one stop connection possibilities with carriers more established in the market?


https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... FYREsxZ0k9
no non-stop from EDI to MIA
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... UABSAGYAQI
no non-stop from EDI to MCO

I also did searches on MAN-MIA, BHX-MCO, BHX-MIA, BFS-MIA, BFS-MCO. No non-stop. If there is no non-stop to these secondary UK markets to MIA/MCO, I would find it hard to believe there would be non-stop to TPA or RSW.

Now, VS does have MAN-MCO, but who knows how much longer VS is going to last and what they would try from MAN even if they manage to hold on.

I see non-stop from MAN-BGI, but none to CUN, MBJ or PUJ or AUA.

Since you mentioned that connection at JFK is not good, I took a look at 1-stop option from MAN to AUA, CUN, MBJ and PUJ
- The vast majority of them involved very long layovers in US airports. As an example here
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... gYIARABGAA

So I'm just really confused at where these non-stop and convenient 1-stop options are?

More importantly, they don't need to really undercut competitors that much. They only have 138 seats to fill. If they are 70% O&D and 30% connection with 85% LF, they only need to fill 35 seats with connections per flight. And only a portion of that needs to be Florida and Caribbeans. Now if you are a legacy carrier operating on MAN-ATL/CLT/PHL with a 250 to 300 seat widebody. You might need to fill 150 seats with connections.

PHL is also a terrible airport for connections to the Caribbean. In the example you cited, MAN-MBJ. VS/DL can get you there via ATL with a 3 hour layover in ATL. That easily beats out an overnight in JFK and would be cheaper overall for any passenger as they would not need to book an overnight hotel stay. https://flights.app.goo.gl/knLGj

MAN-CUN can be done entirely on VS/AF or VS/DL. https://flights.app.goo.gl/Dav3q

MAN-PUJ on AF https://flights.app.goo.gl/RdDKc

Look at the prices and the schedule, how would B6 compete with that via JFK?


So for all these 1-stop service that you claimed, you can only find a couple. The BA example required changing airport in London. The AF example does not operate every day. You have to narrow it to a Friday to Friday in order to even find 1 flight with reasonable connection. I change is to Friday departure and Sunday return and there is suddenly no good options. And that only covers MAN. There is still BHX, BFS and EDI with even less options.

As for pricing, you are assuming legacy airlines can sustain $700 R/T connections in Y when O/W J fares on JFK-Lon/Paris drop from $5000 to $1000. That's not a great assumption.

But since you are insistent on it, I will tell give you an example. Right now, JFK-CUN is priced at $220 R/T. So, as long as JetBlue can handle around $500 R/T fares on JFK-LON, $700 R/T on LON-JFK-CUN should be fine for them. Well, JFK-LAX is priced at $260 R/T and Lodon is only 1/3 of the way longer. Even factoring in taxes, twice the fare doesn't seem to be that unreasonable. This is simply a case of front of the cabin paying for the low fares in back of the cabin. You don't make money in back cabin on international flights. You make it in front cabin. The connection stuff is to just help them fill up the plane and make it harder for legacies to undercut them on non-stop traffic.
 
eagles94
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:51 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:19 am

tphuang wrote:

https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... FYREsxZ0k9
no non-stop from EDI to MIA
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... UABSAGYAQI
no non-stop from EDI to MCO

I also did searches on MAN-MIA, BHX-MCO, BHX-MIA, BFS-MIA, BFS-MCO.


Who on earth would be flying BFS, BHX or EDI to MIA or vice-versa, while it looks good on paper, realistically, these flights would not attract the volume of people it would need, MIA is a premium leisure market, these kind of airports just wouldn't provide the necessary traffic, so it's unsurprising that there's no carriers already operating these, and anybody who did attempt it would be accused of "throwing darts at a map".
MAN-MIA perhaps, but TCX tried it and dropped it.

MCO routes might hold together better, feeding traffic into WDW.
Last edited by eagles94 on Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:20 am

tphuang wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... FYREsxZ0k9
no non-stop from EDI to MIA
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... UABSAGYAQI
no non-stop from EDI to MCO

I also did searches on MAN-MIA, BHX-MCO, BHX-MIA, BFS-MIA, BFS-MCO. No non-stop. If there is no non-stop to these secondary UK markets to MIA/MCO, I would find it hard to believe there would be non-stop to TPA or RSW.

Now, VS does have MAN-MCO, but who knows how much longer VS is going to last and what they would try from MAN even if they manage to hold on.

I see non-stop from MAN-BGI, but none to CUN, MBJ or PUJ or AUA.

Since you mentioned that connection at JFK is not good, I took a look at 1-stop option from MAN to AUA, CUN, MBJ and PUJ
- The vast majority of them involved very long layovers in US airports. As an example here
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... gYIARABGAA

So I'm just really confused at where these non-stop and convenient 1-stop options are?

More importantly, they don't need to really undercut competitors that much. They only have 138 seats to fill. If they are 70% O&D and 30% connection with 85% LF, they only need to fill 35 seats with connections per flight. And only a portion of that needs to be Florida and Caribbeans. Now if you are a legacy carrier operating on MAN-ATL/CLT/PHL with a 250 to 300 seat widebody. You might need to fill 150 seats with connections.

PHL is also a terrible airport for connections to the Caribbean. In the example you cited, MAN-MBJ. VS/DL can get you there via ATL with a 3 hour layover in ATL. That easily beats out an overnight in JFK and would be cheaper overall for any passenger as they would not need to book an overnight hotel stay. https://flights.app.goo.gl/knLGj

MAN-CUN can be done entirely on VS/AF or VS/DL. https://flights.app.goo.gl/Dav3q

MAN-PUJ on AF https://flights.app.goo.gl/RdDKc

Look at the prices and the schedule, how would B6 compete with that via JFK?


So for all these 1-stop service that you claimed, you can only find a couple. The BA example required changing airport in London. The AF example does not operate every day. You have to narrow it to a Friday to Friday in order to even find 1 flight with reasonable connection. I change is to Friday departure and Sunday return and there is suddenly no good options. And that only covers MAN. There is still BHX, BFS and EDI with even less options.

As for pricing, you are assuming legacy airlines can sustain $700 R/T connections in Y when O/W J fares on JFK-Lon/Paris drop from $5000 to $1000. That's not a great assumption.

But since you are insistent on it, I will tell give you an example. Right now, JFK-CUN is priced at $220 R/T. So, as long as JetBlue can handle around $500 R/T fares on JFK-LON, $700 R/T on LON-JFK-CUN should be fine for them. Well, JFK-LAX is priced at $260 R/T and Lodon is only 1/3 of the way longer. Even factoring in taxes, twice the fare doesn't seem to be that unreasonable. This is simply a case of front of the cabin paying for the low fares in back of the cabin. You don't make money in back cabin on international flights. You make it in front cabin. The connection stuff is to just help them fill up the plane and make it harder for legacies to undercut them on non-stop traffic.

Well obviously you would have to look when the airlines are actually flying the route. That’s what passengers do as well. These are thin leisure routes, not business routes which need daily connections. Again, how are overnight stays in NYC any more desirable than those options? Who would book that?
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: JetBlue Network Thread - 2020

Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:41 am

eagles94 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... FYREsxZ0k9
no non-stop from EDI to MIA
https://www.google.com/travel/flights/s ... UABSAGYAQI
no non-stop from EDI to MCO

I also did searches on MAN-MIA, BHX-MCO, BHX-MIA, BFS-MIA, BFS-MCO.


Who on earth would be flying BFS, BHX or EDI to MIA or vice-versa, while it looks good on paper, realistically, these flights would not attract the volume of people it would need, MIA is a premium leisure market, these kind of airports just wouldn't provide the necessary traffic, so it's unsurprising that there's no carriers already operating these, and anybody who did attempt it would be accused of "throwing darts at a map".
MAN-MIA perhaps, but TCX tried it and dropped it.

MCO routes might hold together better, feeding traffic into WDW.

Didn’t Virgin fly BFS-MCO pre-Covid anyways? You could also have easily done BHX-MCO on KL/DL, and the MIA ones on KL through AMS reasonably. Post-Covid it’ll take time for dust to settle.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7490
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: JetBlue Secures Slots For BOS-STN, JFK-LGW

Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:12 am

NYC-air wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Does anyone really see BOS-STN working?


London is London. At the other end, Boston has connections on Jetblue to all over the USA.


The is obviously a very good point! Connecting at the USA mega-hubs on the majors can be a real hassle. Jetblue can offer a more intimate experience. T5 at JFK is compact and has its own customs hall. Same goes for their operation at Boston terminal C, which is conveniently right next to and just a short stroll from the customs hall in terminal D.

I rather like, for example, connecting in DUB on Aer Lingus versus the European megahubs like LHR and CDG. Aer Lingus does a lot of business off people like me. Same idea.


Don't JB international flights arriving at JFK use the Terminal 4 customs ? JB is going to have their own FIS when they build an addition on what is the current T7 site( BA terminal).

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos