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miguel0881
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:00 am

Rjh3h wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:

They’ll be multi use gates as well. Bottom level will handle international services, top floor will handle domestic departures. The BA flight was actually one of their best performing routes, with the 787-10 daily upgauge this summer before COVID. There was speculation DL was gonna add CDG as well. It’s built for the future of BNA. In the coming years we’ll see flights to Mexico and even Japan I bet.


Doubtful. That traffic can easily route through DFW, ORD, ATL, IAH, IAD and a host of other places. And if BNA was such a great performer for BA, why did they drop it during the pandemic? BA has continued to provide pax and/or cargo service to a number of North American markets, but BNA is not one of those. There's no need for it when they can so easily route pax through ORD with their alliance partner AA, just as they did for the last 20 years. Anyway, BA is hanging on by a thread right now and will not be looking to take any risks for many years. It was an interesting but short lived experiment.


Well, as a reminder in case you forgot, we are still in a pandemic and most countries have restricted travel between one another (I.e. the US and U.K. are restricting travel and instituting mandatory quarantines between one another). Further, there are only limited airports that allow international travel into the US, and of course BNA is not one of those (neither is AUS, BWI, RDU, etc.). Lastly, as most of us have done (can’t speak for you) we’ve been in quarantine-not sure this is the best time to be going to London/Europe or Nashville (for the Europeans) when things are mostly closed and also most companies have paused any sort of travel for the time being.

I will add that I have taken this flight several times over the last couple of year and it’s been absolutely filled both ways, so I am curious what your basis is for saying that it has been permanently “dropped”?

There’s nothing wrong with planning for the future. These things take time to build and develop and don't spring up overnight. The IAB won’t be done for at least two more years. Let’s all hope we are back to where we were a year ago by then. Sounds like if you were in charge, we’d still be utilizing the old airport terminal that was off of Briley...


I'm not picking on BNA by any means, but the thought of constructing an elaborate IAB for a city that does not currently have a single international flight just seems to be the height of absurdity. And even if BNA gets back to where it was a year ago, as you say, that's still only ONE intercontinental flight and the occasional CUN flight in the winter, not counting the handful of Canadian pre-clearance flights! So who is going to use that facility? You weren’t getting a CDG or NRT flight pre-pandemic, and you’re certainly not getting one now. Plus, WN sends all of its Latin America and Caribbean traffic through FLL (which just recently got its own WN CBP facility) and HOU. Hardly seems worth the investment for BNA. I understand the BA flight did relatively well for the very short time it ran, but it's still expensive for any airline to fund a station for a single flight without onward connections when the cost savings are so much better at ORD and DFW. So yes, this is the very definition of a frivolous prestige project!
 
dfdubflyer
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:01 am

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:32 am

miguel0881 wrote:
Rjh3h wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:

Doubtful. That traffic can easily route through DFW, ORD, ATL, IAH, IAD and a host of other places. And if BNA was such a great performer for BA, why did they drop it during the pandemic? BA has continued to provide pax and/or cargo service to a number of North American markets, but BNA is not one of those. There's no need for it when they can so easily route pax through ORD with their alliance partner AA, just as they did for the last 20 years. Anyway, BA is hanging on by a thread right now and will not be looking to take any risks for many years. It was an interesting but short lived experiment.


Well, as a reminder in case you forgot, we are still in a pandemic and most countries have restricted travel between one another (I.e. the US and U.K. are restricting travel and instituting mandatory quarantines between one another). Further, there are only limited airports that allow international travel into the US, and of course BNA is not one of those (neither is AUS, BWI, RDU, etc.). Lastly, as most of us have done (can’t speak for you) we’ve been in quarantine-not sure this is the best time to be going to London/Europe or Nashville (for the Europeans) when things are mostly closed and also most companies have paused any sort of travel for the time being.

I will add that I have taken this flight several times over the last couple of year and it’s been absolutely filled both ways, so I am curious what your basis is for saying that it has been permanently “dropped”?

There’s nothing wrong with planning for the future. These things take time to build and develop and don't spring up overnight. The IAB won’t be done for at least two more years. Let’s all hope we are back to where we were a year ago by then. Sounds like if you were in charge, we’d still be utilizing the old airport terminal that was off of Briley...


I'm not picking on BNA by any means, but the thought of constructing an elaborate IAB for a city that does not currently have a single international flight just seems to be the height of absurdity. And even if BNA gets back to where it was a year ago, as you say, that's still only ONE intercontinental flight and the occasional CUN flight in the winter, not counting the handful of Canadian pre-clearance flights! So who is going to use that facility? You weren’t getting a CDG or NRT flight pre-pandemic, and you’re certainly not getting one now. Plus, WN sends all of its Latin America and Caribbean traffic through FLL (which just recently got its own WN CBP facility) and HOU. Hardly seems worth the investment for BNA. I understand the BA flight did relatively well for the very short time it ran, but it's still expensive for any airline to fund a station for a single flight without onward connections when the cost savings are so much better at ORD and DFW. So yes, this is the very definition of a frivolous prestige project!


Miguel, I think you're overestimating what it really entails.

The main terminal/lobby is being rebuilt already as part of BNA Vision and as a part of that there will be a few gates (4-5) with the capability to handle international arrivals. This isn't some separate terminal or "prestige project"... it really actually requires quite little incremental over the temporary facility constructed to handle BA two years ago. They're swing gates so In the times of day there aren't international flights they'll serve as normal domestic gates. If there is more than one international flight arriving at one time BNA can now handle them both.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 775
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:34 pm

The new IAB is needed because the current one is extremely subpar and cannot handle multiple flights at the same time. Landing new international flights at BNA has been hampered by this subpar facility. Furthermore, the new IAB will allow BNA to process/load multiple widebodies at the same time (domestic or international), something that our peers (RDU, AUS, etc) can do, but we cannot. The new IAB will be coming online around 2023, which should be around the time things start to really recover, thus positioning BNA well to attract new international service.

Yes, BNA will never be an ATL/ORD/DFW, etc, but there is the potential to be a significant WN station in the future, which could mean more Latin America service. This new IAB will position BNA well to funnel connections on WN, especially in the likely event WN takes over all of C in the future. Yes, they have FLL and HOU, but they also have significant competition in those markets and the yields at FLL aren't the best. The question is what is WN's long term plan for BNA and will they eventually commit to opening a full crew base? There has been conflicting messages on this subject.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14425
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:21 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
Rjh3h wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:

Doubtful. That traffic can easily route through DFW, ORD, ATL, IAH, IAD and a host of other places. And if BNA was such a great performer for BA, why did they drop it during the pandemic? BA has continued to provide pax and/or cargo service to a number of North American markets, but BNA is not one of those. There's no need for it when they can so easily route pax through ORD with their alliance partner AA, just as they did for the last 20 years. Anyway, BA is hanging on by a thread right now and will not be looking to take any risks for many years. It was an interesting but short lived experiment.


Well, as a reminder in case you forgot, we are still in a pandemic and most countries have restricted travel between one another (I.e. the US and U.K. are restricting travel and instituting mandatory quarantines between one another). Further, there are only limited airports that allow international travel into the US, and of course BNA is not one of those (neither is AUS, BWI, RDU, etc.). Lastly, as most of us have done (can’t speak for you) we’ve been in quarantine-not sure this is the best time to be going to London/Europe or Nashville (for the Europeans) when things are mostly closed and also most companies have paused any sort of travel for the time being.

I will add that I have taken this flight several times over the last couple of year and it’s been absolutely filled both ways, so I am curious what your basis is for saying that it has been permanently “dropped”?

There’s nothing wrong with planning for the future. These things take time to build and develop and don't spring up overnight. The IAB won’t be done for at least two more years. Let’s all hope we are back to where we were a year ago by then. Sounds like if you were in charge, we’d still be utilizing the old airport terminal that was off of Briley...


I'm not picking on BNA by any means, but the thought of constructing an elaborate IAB for a city that does not currently have a single international flight just seems to be the height of absurdity. And even if BNA gets back to where it was a year ago, as you say, that's still only ONE intercontinental flight and the occasional CUN flight in the winter, not counting the handful of Canadian pre-clearance flights! So who is going to use that facility? You weren’t getting a CDG or NRT flight pre-pandemic, and you’re certainly not getting one now. Plus, WN sends all of its Latin America and Caribbean traffic through FLL (which just recently got its own WN CBP facility) and HOU. Hardly seems worth the investment for BNA. I understand the BA flight did relatively well for the very short time it ran, but it's still expensive for any airline to fund a station for a single flight without onward connections when the cost savings are so much better at ORD and DFW. So yes, this is the very definition of a frivolous prestige project!


In your view, should IND have kept the old (dumpy, trust me) IAB when they built the new terminal? They didn't have anything more than sub-daily, seasonal beach flying at the time. Should MSY have skipped the international wing in its new terminal and made its extant international flights use the old terminal? Those suggestions are so silly that no one serious made them. BNA is no different.

Keep in mind that the ongoing renovation, while it resuses the infrastructure it can, is in many ways a complete terminal rebuild, so really no different from those examples (or RSW, or DTW North, or SLC, or SAN), all of which built more international capacity than they needed based on service levels at the time of the project. And BNA is actually different from several of those projects because it did not have the international capacity it needed for weekend beach flying at the time that the project began. Backups were relatively common.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
miguel0881
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:20 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
Rjh3h wrote:

Well, as a reminder in case you forgot, we are still in a pandemic and most countries have restricted travel between one another (I.e. the US and U.K. are restricting travel and instituting mandatory quarantines between one another). Further, there are only limited airports that allow international travel into the US, and of course BNA is not one of those (neither is AUS, BWI, RDU, etc.). Lastly, as most of us have done (can’t speak for you) we’ve been in quarantine-not sure this is the best time to be going to London/Europe or Nashville (for the Europeans) when things are mostly closed and also most companies have paused any sort of travel for the time being.

I will add that I have taken this flight several times over the last couple of year and it’s been absolutely filled both ways, so I am curious what your basis is for saying that it has been permanently “dropped”?

There’s nothing wrong with planning for the future. These things take time to build and develop and don't spring up overnight. The IAB won’t be done for at least two more years. Let’s all hope we are back to where we were a year ago by then. Sounds like if you were in charge, we’d still be utilizing the old airport terminal that was off of Briley...


I'm not picking on BNA by any means, but the thought of constructing an elaborate IAB for a city that does not currently have a single international flight just seems to be the height of absurdity. And even if BNA gets back to where it was a year ago, as you say, that's still only ONE intercontinental flight and the occasional CUN flight in the winter, not counting the handful of Canadian pre-clearance flights! So who is going to use that facility? You weren’t getting a CDG or NRT flight pre-pandemic, and you’re certainly not getting one now. Plus, WN sends all of its Latin America and Caribbean traffic through FLL (which just recently got its own WN CBP facility) and HOU. Hardly seems worth the investment for BNA. I understand the BA flight did relatively well for the very short time it ran, but it's still expensive for any airline to fund a station for a single flight without onward connections when the cost savings are so much better at ORD and DFW. So yes, this is the very definition of a frivolous prestige project!


In your view, should IND have kept the old (dumpy, trust me) IAB when they built the new terminal? They didn't have anything more than sub-daily, seasonal beach flying at the time. Should MSY have skipped the international wing in its new terminal and made its extant international flights use the old terminal? Those suggestions are so silly that no one serious made them. BNA is no different.

Keep in mind that the ongoing renovation, while it resuses the infrastructure it can, is in many ways a complete terminal rebuild, so really no different from those examples (or RSW, or DTW North, or SLC, or SAN), all of which built more international capacity than they needed based on service levels at the time of the project. And BNA is actually different from several of those projects because it did not have the international capacity it needed for weekend beach flying at the time that the project began. Backups were relatively common.


No, that's precisely my point. Whether IND, MSY, or BNA, none of these third tier American cities needs or can justify this infrastructure, or the Federal tax dollars that partially fund (and staff) it. It's ridiculous. Every dot on the map now thinks they need an IAB because someone else (usually a long shuttered old hub) has it or because they get or have hopes for a single international flight. But oh maybe DL will add a summer 757 to CDG next year! Or we have a factory that might bring someone in from Japan! Give me a break.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14425
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:29 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:

I'm not picking on BNA by any means, but the thought of constructing an elaborate IAB for a city that does not currently have a single international flight just seems to be the height of absurdity. And even if BNA gets back to where it was a year ago, as you say, that's still only ONE intercontinental flight and the occasional CUN flight in the winter, not counting the handful of Canadian pre-clearance flights! So who is going to use that facility? You weren’t getting a CDG or NRT flight pre-pandemic, and you’re certainly not getting one now. Plus, WN sends all of its Latin America and Caribbean traffic through FLL (which just recently got its own WN CBP facility) and HOU. Hardly seems worth the investment for BNA. I understand the BA flight did relatively well for the very short time it ran, but it's still expensive for any airline to fund a station for a single flight without onward connections when the cost savings are so much better at ORD and DFW. So yes, this is the very definition of a frivolous prestige project!


In your view, should IND have kept the old (dumpy, trust me) IAB when they built the new terminal? They didn't have anything more than sub-daily, seasonal beach flying at the time. Should MSY have skipped the international wing in its new terminal and made its extant international flights use the old terminal? Those suggestions are so silly that no one serious made them. BNA is no different.

Keep in mind that the ongoing renovation, while it resuses the infrastructure it can, is in many ways a complete terminal rebuild, so really no different from those examples (or RSW, or DTW North, or SLC, or SAN), all of which built more international capacity than they needed based on service levels at the time of the project. And BNA is actually different from several of those projects because it did not have the international capacity it needed for weekend beach flying at the time that the project began. Backups were relatively common.


No, that's precisely my point. Whether IND, MSY, or BNA, none of these third tier American cities needs or can justify this infrastructure, or the Federal tax dollars that partially fund (and staff) it. It's ridiculous. Every dot on the map now thinks they need an IAB because someone else (usually a long shuttered old hub) has it or because they get or have hopes for a single international flight. But oh maybe DL will add a summer 757 to CDG next year! Or we have a factory that might bring someone in from Japan! Give me a break.


So when BA or DL or whoever wants to fly to these places and feel they can make money doing so (without subsidy in the cities we're discussing), the airports shouldn't be prepared to accommodate them? That seems to be your argument. And again, all of these cities can and do support beach flying. Why shouldn't the airports accommodate that flying?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
reednavy
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:35 pm

Calling Nashville a "third-tier" city is pretty comical and completely invalidates your argument. The city is a booming business city and has long-cemented itself as a tourism destination that continues to grow its int'l side.

BNA is planning for a better future and more int'l flights that the current temporary IAB can not handle adequetly, especially with some airlines (like WN) wanting to add more int'l destinations but are hindered by a single gate. Even if int'l flights aren't using the gates, they'll still get healthy use as common use, most likely from AA & DL. The expansion was 100% justified as certain times of day the airport was almost overwhelmed and crowded by explosive growth that even the upper-bounds of forecasts didn't capture. Now, is it as dire as before COVID? Of course not, but BNA is positioning itself very well for the continued growth as the metro area is one of the fastest growing in the nation.
 
miguel0881
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:46 pm

reednavy wrote:
Calling Nashville a "third-tier" city is pretty comical and completely invalidates your argument. The city is a booming business city and has long-cemented itself as a tourism destination that continues to grow its int'l side.

BNA is planning for a better future and more int'l flights that the current temporary IAB can not handle adequetly, especially with some airlines (like WN) wanting to add more int'l destinations but are hindered by a single gate. Even if int'l flights aren't using the gates, they'll still get healthy use as common use, most likely from AA & DL. The expansion was 100% justified as certain times of day the airport was almost overwhelmed and crowded by explosive growth that even the upper-bounds of forecasts didn't capture. Now, is it as dire as before COVID? Of course not, but BNA is positioning itself very well for the continued growth as the metro area is one of the fastest growing in the nation.


Are you kidding me? It's about the same size as Louisville, Milwaukee, and Oklahoma City. Third tier is generous.
 
TangoCharlie123
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:48 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:55 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
reednavy wrote:
Calling Nashville a "third-tier" city is pretty comical and completely invalidates your argument. The city is a booming business city and has long-cemented itself as a tourism destination that continues to grow its int'l side.

BNA is planning for a better future and more int'l flights that the current temporary IAB can not handle adequetly, especially with some airlines (like WN) wanting to add more int'l destinations but are hindered by a single gate. Even if int'l flights aren't using the gates, they'll still get healthy use as common use, most likely from AA & DL. The expansion was 100% justified as certain times of day the airport was almost overwhelmed and crowded by explosive growth that even the upper-bounds of forecasts didn't capture. Now, is it as dire as before COVID? Of course not, but BNA is positioning itself very well for the continued growth as the metro area is one of the fastest growing in the nation.


Are you kidding me? It's about the same size as Louisville, Milwaukee, and Oklahoma City. Third tier is generous.


The GDP for the Nashville metro area was $132 billion in 2018, almost double that of Louisville at $72 billion and still significantly more than Oklahoma City at $81 billion. To say it’s the same size as those cities is laughable.
 
tys777
Moderator
Posts: 536
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:01 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
reednavy wrote:
Calling Nashville a "third-tier" city is pretty comical and completely invalidates your argument. The city is a booming business city and has long-cemented itself as a tourism destination that continues to grow its int'l side.

BNA is planning for a better future and more int'l flights that the current temporary IAB can not handle adequetly, especially with some airlines (like WN) wanting to add more int'l destinations but are hindered by a single gate. Even if int'l flights aren't using the gates, they'll still get healthy use as common use, most likely from AA & DL. The expansion was 100% justified as certain times of day the airport was almost overwhelmed and crowded by explosive growth that even the upper-bounds of forecasts didn't capture. Now, is it as dire as before COVID? Of course not, but BNA is positioning itself very well for the continued growth as the metro area is one of the fastest growing in the nation.


Are you kidding me? It's about the same size as Louisville, Milwaukee, and Oklahoma City. Third tier is generous.


I'm curious what metric you are using. Population? If so, that doesn't tell the entire story in regards to city size and air demand.
 
Wacko55
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:59 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:06 pm

TangoCharlie123 wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
reednavy wrote:
Calling Nashville a "third-tier" city is pretty comical and completely invalidates your argument. The city is a booming business city and has long-cemented itself as a tourism destination that continues to grow its int'l side.

BNA is planning for a better future and more int'l flights that the current temporary IAB can not handle adequetly, especially with some airlines (like WN) wanting to add more int'l destinations but are hindered by a single gate. Even if int'l flights aren't using the gates, they'll still get healthy use as common use, most likely from AA & DL. The expansion was 100% justified as certain times of day the airport was almost overwhelmed and crowded by explosive growth that even the upper-bounds of forecasts didn't capture. Now, is it as dire as before COVID? Of course not, but BNA is positioning itself very well for the continued growth as the metro area is one of the fastest growing in the nation.


Are you kidding me? It's about the same size as Louisville, Milwaukee, and Oklahoma City. Third tier is generous.


The GDP for the Nashville metro area was $132 billion in 2018, almost double that of Louisville at $72 billion and still significantly more than Oklahoma City at $81 billion. To say it’s the same size as those cities is laughable.


It will be interesting to see how the newly passed 34% property tax increase affects BNA and future growth in the metro.
 
dronezone
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:07 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
reednavy wrote:
Calling Nashville a "third-tier" city is pretty comical and completely invalidates your argument. The city is a booming business city and has long-cemented itself as a tourism destination that continues to grow its int'l side.

BNA is planning for a better future and more int'l flights that the current temporary IAB can not handle adequetly, especially with some airlines (like WN) wanting to add more int'l destinations but are hindered by a single gate. Even if int'l flights aren't using the gates, they'll still get healthy use as common use, most likely from AA & DL. The expansion was 100% justified as certain times of day the airport was almost overwhelmed and crowded by explosive growth that even the upper-bounds of forecasts didn't capture. Now, is it as dire as before COVID? Of course not, but BNA is positioning itself very well for the continued growth as the metro area is one of the fastest growing in the nation.


Are you kidding me? It's about the same size as Louisville, Milwaukee, and Oklahoma City. Third tier is generous.


I think you need to check your facts, or maybe instead actually provide some. Your random claims that BNA is a third tier airport is based on what exactly?
 
miguel0881
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:12 pm

tys777 wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
reednavy wrote:
Calling Nashville a "third-tier" city is pretty comical and completely invalidates your argument. The city is a booming business city and has long-cemented itself as a tourism destination that continues to grow its int'l side.

BNA is planning for a better future and more int'l flights that the current temporary IAB can not handle adequetly, especially with some airlines (like WN) wanting to add more int'l destinations but are hindered by a single gate. Even if int'l flights aren't using the gates, they'll still get healthy use as common use, most likely from AA & DL. The expansion was 100% justified as certain times of day the airport was almost overwhelmed and crowded by explosive growth that even the upper-bounds of forecasts didn't capture. Now, is it as dire as before COVID? Of course not, but BNA is positioning itself very well for the continued growth as the metro area is one of the fastest growing in the nation.


Are you kidding me? It's about the same size as Louisville, Milwaukee, and Oklahoma City. Third tier is generous.


I'm curious what metric you are using. Population? If so, that doesn't tell the entire story in regards to city size and air demand.


Yes, population, of course. BNA is a busier airport, fine, but almost all of that is WN (and lately G4 and NK), none of which have codeshare or alliance partners. So you're never going to get, say, a LH flight to FRA, or an ANA flight to NRT, and honestly, I would be surprised if even BA ever comes back. Facilitating Avios award redemptions to the Country Music Hall of Fame is simply not going to be their top priority. So maybe, just maybe, if you're lucky and the stars align, you'll land a seasonal PUJ flight with convenient onward connections to MCI and OMA. But most Caribbean destinations that could support a flight to BNA already have pre-clearance (NAS, AUA, maybe BDA). This is the reality, folks. Does anyone actually explain these things to city decisionmakers when they take on these bonds?
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 5119
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:18 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
tys777 wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:

Are you kidding me? It's about the same size as Louisville, Milwaukee, and Oklahoma City. Third tier is generous.


I'm curious what metric you are using. Population? If so, that doesn't tell the entire story in regards to city size and air demand.


Yes, population, of course. BNA is a busier airport, fine, but almost all of that is WN (and lately G4 and NK), none of which have codeshare or alliance partners. So you're never going to get, say, a LH flight to FRA, or an ANA flight to NRT, and honestly, I would be surprised if even BA ever comes back. Facilitating Avios award redemptions to the Country Music Hall of Fame is simply not going to be their top priority. So maybe, just maybe, if you're lucky and the stars align, you'll land a seasonal PUJ flight with convenient onward connections to MCI and OMA. But most Caribbean destinations that could support a flight to BNA already have pre-clearance (NAS, AUA, maybe BDA). This is the reality, folks. Does anyone actually explain these things to city decisionmakers when they take on these bonds?


miguel0881 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:

I'm not picking on BNA by any means, but the thought of constructing an elaborate IAB for a city that does not currently have a single international flight just seems to be the height of absurdity. And even if BNA gets back to where it was a year ago, as you say, that's still only ONE intercontinental flight and the occasional CUN flight in the winter, not counting the handful of Canadian pre-clearance flights! So who is going to use that facility? You weren’t getting a CDG or NRT flight pre-pandemic, and you’re certainly not getting one now. Plus, WN sends all of its Latin America and Caribbean traffic through FLL (which just recently got its own WN CBP facility) and HOU. Hardly seems worth the investment for BNA. I understand the BA flight did relatively well for the very short time it ran, but it's still expensive for any airline to fund a station for a single flight without onward connections when the cost savings are so much better at ORD and DFW. So yes, this is the very definition of a frivolous prestige project!


In your view, should IND have kept the old (dumpy, trust me) IAB when they built the new terminal? They didn't have anything more than sub-daily, seasonal beach flying at the time. Should MSY have skipped the international wing in its new terminal and made its extant international flights use the old terminal? Those suggestions are so silly that no one serious made them. BNA is no different.

Keep in mind that the ongoing renovation, while it resuses the infrastructure it can, is in many ways a complete terminal rebuild, so really no different from those examples (or RSW, or DTW North, or SLC, or SAN), all of which built more international capacity than they needed based on service levels at the time of the project. And BNA is actually different from several of those projects because it did not have the international capacity it needed for weekend beach flying at the time that the project began. Backups were relatively common.


No, that's precisely my point. Whether IND, MSY, or BNA, none of these third tier American cities needs or can justify this infrastructure, or the Federal tax dollars that partially fund (and staff) it. It's ridiculous. Every dot on the map now thinks they need an IAB because someone else (usually a long shuttered old hub) has it or because they get or have hopes for a single international flight. But oh maybe DL will add a summer 757 to CDG next year! Or we have a factory that might bring someone in from Japan! Give me a break.


Do you happen to be from Louisville by chance? Perhaps friends with a certain poster from the "bluegrass" state?
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
miguel0881
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:20 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
tys777 wrote:

I'm curious what metric you are using. Population? If so, that doesn't tell the entire story in regards to city size and air demand.


Yes, population, of course. BNA is a busier airport, fine, but almost all of that is WN (and lately G4 and NK), none of which have codeshare or alliance partners. So you're never going to get, say, a LH flight to FRA, or an ANA flight to NRT, and honestly, I would be surprised if even BA ever comes back. Facilitating Avios award redemptions to the Country Music Hall of Fame is simply not going to be their top priority. So maybe, just maybe, if you're lucky and the stars align, you'll land a seasonal PUJ flight with convenient onward connections to MCI and OMA. But most Caribbean destinations that could support a flight to BNA already have pre-clearance (NAS, AUA, maybe BDA). This is the reality, folks. Does anyone actually explain these things to city decisionmakers when they take on these bonds?


miguel0881 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

In your view, should IND have kept the old (dumpy, trust me) IAB when they built the new terminal? They didn't have anything more than sub-daily, seasonal beach flying at the time. Should MSY have skipped the international wing in its new terminal and made its extant international flights use the old terminal? Those suggestions are so silly that no one serious made them. BNA is no different.

Keep in mind that the ongoing renovation, while it resuses the infrastructure it can, is in many ways a complete terminal rebuild, so really no different from those examples (or RSW, or DTW North, or SLC, or SAN), all of which built more international capacity than they needed based on service levels at the time of the project. And BNA is actually different from several of those projects because it did not have the international capacity it needed for weekend beach flying at the time that the project began. Backups were relatively common.


No, that's precisely my point. Whether IND, MSY, or BNA, none of these third tier American cities needs or can justify this infrastructure, or the Federal tax dollars that partially fund (and staff) it. It's ridiculous. Every dot on the map now thinks they need an IAB because someone else (usually a long shuttered old hub) has it or because they get or have hopes for a single international flight. But oh maybe DL will add a summer 757 to CDG next year! Or we have a factory that might bring someone in from Japan! Give me a break.


Do you happen to be from Louisville by chance? Perhaps friends with a certain poster from the "bluegrass" state?


Nope, have only been through SDF once in my life.
 
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southwest1675
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:35 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:

Yes, population, of course. BNA is a busier airport, fine, but almost all of that is WN (and lately G4 and NK), none of which have codeshare or alliance partners. So you're never going to get, say, a LH flight to FRA, or an ANA flight to NRT, and honestly, I would be surprised if even BA ever comes back. Facilitating Avios award redemptions to the Country Music Hall of Fame is simply not going to be their top priority. So maybe, just maybe, if you're lucky and the stars align, you'll land a seasonal PUJ flight with convenient onward connections to MCI and OMA. But most Caribbean destinations that could support a flight to BNA already have pre-clearance (NAS, AUA, maybe BDA). This is the reality, folks. Does anyone actually explain these things to city decisionmakers when they take on these bonds?


miguel0881 wrote:

No, that's precisely my point. Whether IND, MSY, or BNA, none of these third tier American cities needs or can justify this infrastructure, or the Federal tax dollars that partially fund (and staff) it. It's ridiculous. Every dot on the map now thinks they need an IAB because someone else (usually a long shuttered old hub) has it or because they get or have hopes for a single international flight. But oh maybe DL will add a summer 757 to CDG next year! Or we have a factory that might bring someone in from Japan! Give me a break.


Do you happen to be from Louisville by chance? Perhaps friends with a certain poster from the "bluegrass" state?


Nope, have only been through SDF once in my life.


I’m sorry.
Herb Kelleher 1931-2019
 
FlyGuyNash
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:41 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
tys777 wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:

Are you kidding me? It's about the same size as Louisville, Milwaukee, and Oklahoma City. Third tier is generous.


I'm curious what metric you are using. Population? If so, that doesn't tell the entire story in regards to city size and air demand.


Yes, population, of course. BNA is a busier airport, fine, but almost all of that is WN (and lately G4 and NK), none of which have codeshare or alliance partners. So you're never going to get, say, a LH flight to FRA, or an ANA flight to NRT, and honestly, I would be surprised if even BA ever comes back. Facilitating Avios award redemptions to the Country Music Hall of Fame is simply not going to be their top priority. So maybe, just maybe, if you're lucky and the stars align, you'll land a seasonal PUJ flight with convenient onward connections to MCI and OMA. But most Caribbean destinations that could support a flight to BNA already have pre-clearance (NAS, AUA, maybe BDA). This is the reality, folks. Does anyone actually explain these things to city decisionmakers when they take on these bonds?


This is real laughable. I like how you think you know everything. BNA was being built for what was needed for the future. BNA execs no doubt talked with airlines and have an idea of what airlines were wanting to size BNA to be. There is obviously a need for the IAB and eventually traffic will hit pre covid levels and beyond. Businesses will again grow and people will still need to travel, it will take time for that to happen but it will happen.
 
737MAX7
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:05 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:

Yes, population, of course. BNA is a busier airport, fine, but almost all of that is WN (and lately G4 and NK), none of which have codeshare or alliance partners. So you're never going to get, say, a LH flight to FRA, or an ANA flight to NRT, and honestly, I would be surprised if even BA ever comes back. Facilitating Avios award redemptions to the Country Music Hall of Fame is simply not going to be their top priority. So maybe, just maybe, if you're lucky and the stars align, you'll land a seasonal PUJ flight with convenient onward connections to MCI and OMA. But most Caribbean destinations that could support a flight to BNA already have pre-clearance (NAS, AUA, maybe BDA). This is the reality, folks. Does anyone actually explain these things to city decisionmakers when they take on these bonds?


miguel0881 wrote:

No, that's precisely my point. Whether IND, MSY, or BNA, none of these third tier American cities needs or can justify this infrastructure, or the Federal tax dollars that partially fund (and staff) it. It's ridiculous. Every dot on the map now thinks they need an IAB because someone else (usually a long shuttered old hub) has it or because they get or have hopes for a single international flight. But oh maybe DL will add a summer 757 to CDG next year! Or we have a factory that might bring someone in from Japan! Give me a break.


Do you happen to be from Louisville by chance? Perhaps friends with a certain poster from the "bluegrass" state?


Nope, have only been through SDF once in my life.

Apologies if I really don’t believe that. :roll: I really don’t understand the uproar. The gates aren’t going to go unused, whether it’s an international flight or domestic. When traffic picks up again, the IAB opens up and AA can get their gates back I wouldn’t be shocked if WN asked for C13/14/15/17 back.
 
miguel0881
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:10 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:



Do you happen to be from Louisville by chance? Perhaps friends with a certain poster from the "bluegrass" state?


Nope, have only been through SDF once in my life.

Apologies if I really don’t believe that. :roll: I really don’t understand the uproar. The gates aren’t going to go unused, whether it’s an international flight or domestic. When traffic picks up again, the IAB opens up and AA can get their gates back I wouldn’t be shocked if WN asked for C13/14/15/17 back.


You really don't believe what?
 
TangoCharlie123
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:45 pm

Airlines could certainly route flyers through costal gateways to Europe and Asia, but business flyers and high income individuals (both of which Nashville has an increasing number of) are willing to pay a premium for direct flights. If there’s money to be made at BNA, airlines will launch flights here.
 
reednavy
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:58 pm

TangoCharlie123 wrote:
Airlines could certainly route flyers through costal gateways to Europe and Asia, but business flyers and high income individuals (both of which Nashville has an increasing number of) are willing to pay a premium for direct flights. If there’s money to be made at BNA, airlines will launch flights here.

If I'm not mistaken, that was part of the reason why the were upgauging to the 787-10 because the number of J seats and the rate they were commanding more than exceeded what was forecast. BA themselves said it was their best-performing new route in over a decade, which that itself speaks volumes. I also think it's done so well that they wound up not needing the subsidy the city was putting forth.
 
ThaneC
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:04 pm

Without a doubt, Nashville and its surrounding region are among the fastest-growing in the entire country. It is shocking how rapid the growth has been over the past decade and it is continuing even in the wake of a global pandemic and deep recession. Tourism, conventions, entertainment and a very balanced economy are the drivers. BNA is doing a great job planning and building for the future. The comment by miguel0881 about Nashville being a “third-tier” city is laughable and deletes his credibility.
 
Wacko55
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:20 pm

ThaneC wrote:
Without a doubt, Nashville and its surrounding region are among the fastest-growing in the entire country. It is shocking how rapid the growth has been over the past decade and it is continuing even in the wake of a global pandemic and deep recession. Tourism, conventions, entertainment and a very balanced economy are the drivers. BNA is doing a great job planning and building for the future. The comment by miguel0881 about Nashville being a “third-tier” city is laughable and deletes his credibility.


Do you think the 34% property tax increase will adversely affect future growth? That is a dagger in the heart of growth. The business community has got to be furious at the city council. Unfortunately this will have an impact on BNA.
 
ThaneC
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:49 pm

The property tax increase was expected and it is badly needed. The last tax increase was almost a decade ago. Even with the increase, property taxes in Nashville are still much lower than comparable cities. The business community and local residents have complained, but that will not be an obstacle to the dynamic growth underway in Nashville and Middle Tennessee region. With no state income tax, Nashville remains extremely attractive and the growth will continue.
 
reednavy
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:55 pm

The biggest issue is that the tier-system is HIGHLY subjective. The 2018 GaWC list puts Nashville in the "Gamma -" category, for instance, which is a notch lower than St. Louis, a "Gamma".

In terms of international name recognition, Nashville is easily way up there because of its connection to music. When it comes to business, Nashville would be a solid 3rd-tier and moving upwards, punching above its weight for a metro just now eclipsing 2mil with the census underway.
 
Wacko55
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:02 pm

ThaneC wrote:
The property tax increase was expected and it is badly needed. The last tax increase was almost a decade ago. Even with the increase, property taxes in Nashville are still much lower than comparable cities. The business community and local residents have complained, but that will not be an obstacle to the dynamic growth underway in Nashville and Middle Tennessee region. With no state income tax, Nashville remains extremely attractive and the growth will continue.


I wish you good luck.....
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:18 pm

Wacko55 wrote:
ThaneC wrote:
The property tax increase was expected and it is badly needed. The last tax increase was almost a decade ago. Even with the increase, property taxes in Nashville are still much lower than comparable cities. The business community and local residents have complained, but that will not be an obstacle to the dynamic growth underway in Nashville and Middle Tennessee region. With no state income tax, Nashville remains extremely attractive and the growth will continue.


I wish you good luck.....


Not saying I am a fan of the tax increase, but as someone who lived in the Chicagoland area for a good portion of my life, Nashville/Tennessee taxes are a drop in the bucket compared to there. You haven't seen anything unless you've lived in a huge metro area like that. People need some perspective if they think this is the end of the world.
 
skitchie
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:21 pm

On a side note, any of y'all see that emergency landing? Citation 550 diverted here w/ an overheated battery. Always cool to see the trucks roll out (that being said, glad to here everyone on the plane was safe as well)
 
enplaned
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:44 pm

Best quick way to judge the size and health of a metro area is to look at its Primary Statistical Area. A PSA for a US city is its CSA, if it has one (Combined Statistical Area) and if not, its MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area). Either way, the PSA is the largest Census Bureau metro area. PSAs, MSAs and CSAs have their own issues, but whatever, it's the Census Bureau's job to measure things like metro area in a somewhat systematic way, it's a reasonable way to start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistic ... ted_States)

There are two things to look at: (1) size and (2) growth

Ranked by 2018 estimated population, Nashville's PSA is ranked 36th in the US and its 2018/2010 growth is over 15% - that's an extremely healthy growth rate. It's not Texas level growth rates (Austin's metro area is growing at a truly prodigious rate, and given how big are Houston & the DFW Metroplex, those metros are growing at awe-inspiring rates), but it's very healthy.

Florida aside, Nashville's PSA is the 4th largest in the SE, after Atlanta (#11, with 11.9% growth), Charlotte (#23, 14.6% growth) and Raleigh/Durham (#33, 17% growth).

I don't think there's a planner in the US who would regard Nashville as a third-tier city. It's a very solid second-tier city, an NFL city (and an NHL city for what that's worth). Like the other Southern cities, it punches above its weight - the southeastern cities (Florida aside) are all undersized. If Nashville was located, in, say, the NE, it wouldn't have the profile it has. But it's in the SE. There's a reason why BNA and RDU get so much love from the airlines despite their somewhat modest sizes.

BNA is on the bubble - just below the top 30 airports in the US - it's number 31 by 2019 passenger count. It outperforms RDU despite having a smaller metro area - probably something to do with the fact that RDU is somewhat in the shadow of CLT, maybe also something to do with RDU being a bit closer by road to more of the country, perhaps a few more people are able to drive to where they need to go than in BNA.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:48 pm

enplaned wrote:
BNA is on the bubble - just below the top 30 airports in the US - it's number 31 by 2019 passenger count. It outperforms RDU despite having a smaller metro area - probably something to do with the fact that RDU is somewhat in the shadow of CLT, maybe also something to do with RDU being a bit closer by road to more of the country, perhaps a few more people are able to drive to where they need to go than in BNA.


BNA also has a large WN presence which contributes to the higher growth rate. I like to think of BNA as hybrid of STL and RDU (from an air service perspective). It has a large and growing WN presence like STL, but a large presence from the US3, B6/AS/NK, etc, and TATL service like RDU.

The question has been and continues to be what is WN going to do here long term, as this will have a big impact on the future growth of the airport overall.

Like I've said before, it appears everything that was being planned for beyond BNA Vision 1.0 is now on hold until things recover. I haven't heard anything about the master plan since this all started (does anyone have some insight on this?). But that might not be a bad thing. They were planning some serious construction for Vision 2.0 and beyond, and had the potential to significantly raise the CPE. However, maybe this pandemic will allow BNA to take their time and re-evaluate what they truly need.

For example, unless WN is serious about expanding to 250+ flights here and commits to help pay for it, I see no need for things such as expanding Concourse D and building a satellite concourse as was being planned. Furthermore, given the economic and political circumstances, I now believe an Asia flight isn't happening until the 2030's at the earliest, so is extending 2L as pressing as previously thought? I don't think so.

Really, I think a scaled-back version of Vision 2.0 consisting of a new Concourse A and more RON space is all that is needed beyond the current work.
 
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:53 am

Just a reminder to everyone to discuss the topic without trying to provoke one another and to keep personal attacks out of the discussion
Forum Moderator
 
miguel0881
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:58 am

qf789 wrote:
Just a reminder to everyone to discuss the topic without trying to provoke one another and to keep personal attacks out of the discussion


You mean limit ourselves to BNA fanfare and avoid discussion of actual issues? Got it.
 
dfdubflyer
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:15 am

miguel0881 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Just a reminder to everyone to discuss the topic without trying to provoke one another and to keep personal attacks out of the discussion


You mean limit ourselves to BNA fanfare and avoid discussion of actual issues? Got it.


Nashville needed a bigger airport to handle growth the growth they’ve experienced. They decided as a part of that to allow more than one international flight at a time. That’s not a radical idea.

This is not some billion dollar separate white elephant terminal that will sit empty we’re talking about here. BA is loaded to return 1 August (assuming Feds approve more gateways) but plans to return. It’s not unfathomable at some point in the future that WN adds MBJ or a couple targeted Caribbean destinations (where Nashville has had charters in the past).

I actually agree with you that the runway extension or building an additional runway is not warranted given the cost and likelihood of a nonstop to Tokyo. I also would agree it’s not likely that all five will be full of international flights at any one time in the foreseeable future. That said, configuring a couple new-build gates to be able to accept intl passengers is just not in the same category of investment.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:48 pm

dfdubflyer wrote:
I actually agree with you that the runway extension or building an additional runway is not warranted given the cost and likelihood of a nonstop to Tokyo. I also would agree it’s not likely that all five will be full of international flights at any one time in the foreseeable future. That said, configuring a couple new-build gates to be able to accept intl passengers is just not in the same category of investment.


To clarify my previous comments, 2L should be extended at some point, I just don’t think it’s a pressing need for the time being. I do think it’s important to have a N/S runway that is at least 10,000 ft. Plus, I do think the crosswind 13/31 should be shortened to allow for development on the west side of the airport property, and doing so would require the extension of 2L.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:38 pm

Keep in mind BNA is a fairly decent sized O&D market, and growing at a solid clip:

Image

Already brings in more O&D than OAK, SJC, RDU, DAL, & HOU, and not too far behind IAD & SLC

Similar to AUS, it seems odd to say XYZ will never happen at BNA given how much it has grown in the past 10-15 years
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ZazuPIT
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:42 pm

I see comments about how the large property tax is going to hurt Nashville. ALL cities are likely to have large increases. No one expected the impact a pandemic would have on the economy. Nashville was growing, and it will continue to. Large scale condo and hotel projects are still going on. BNA will eventually return to normal and I suspect BA will be a part of that future.
 
CaptainObvious1
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:11 pm

ZazuPIT wrote:
I see comments about how the large property tax is going to hurt Nashville. ALL cities are likely to have large increases. No one expected the impact a pandemic would have on the economy. Nashville was growing, and it will continue to. Large scale condo and hotel projects are still going on. BNA will eventually return to normal and I suspect BA will be a part of that future.


The complete repeal of the Hall Income Tax starting in 2021 will hurt cities in Tennessee. Let's face it basic services cost money to provide and whether it is through income, sales, mineral rights, or any other tax out there the government will get the money they need to operate in one way or another.
 
miguel0881
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:41 pm

dfdubflyer wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Just a reminder to everyone to discuss the topic without trying to provoke one another and to keep personal attacks out of the discussion


You mean limit ourselves to BNA fanfare and avoid discussion of actual issues? Got it.


Nashville needed a bigger airport to handle growth the growth they’ve experienced. They decided as a part of that to allow more than one international flight at a time. That’s not a radical idea.

This is not some billion dollar separate white elephant terminal that will sit empty we’re talking about here. BA is loaded to return 1 August (assuming Feds approve more gateways) but plans to return. It’s not unfathomable at some point in the future that WN adds MBJ or a couple targeted Caribbean destinations (where Nashville has had charters in the past).

I actually agree with you that the runway extension or building an additional runway is not warranted given the cost and likelihood of a nonstop to Tokyo. I also would agree it’s not likely that all five will be full of international flights at any one time in the foreseeable future. That said, configuring a couple new-build gates to be able to accept intl passengers is just not in the same category of investment.


Here's a question. Is there any way to tell exactly how much the addition of the IAB and the construction of the several dual use as opposed to single use gates costs? It would be interesting to see the breakdown on that to know exactly how much is being spent on the international flight accommodations as opposed to general airport upgrades.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:01 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:

You mean limit ourselves to BNA fanfare and avoid discussion of actual issues? Got it.


Nashville needed a bigger airport to handle growth the growth they’ve experienced. They decided as a part of that to allow more than one international flight at a time. That’s not a radical idea.

This is not some billion dollar separate white elephant terminal that will sit empty we’re talking about here. BA is loaded to return 1 August (assuming Feds approve more gateways) but plans to return. It’s not unfathomable at some point in the future that WN adds MBJ or a couple targeted Caribbean destinations (where Nashville has had charters in the past).

I actually agree with you that the runway extension or building an additional runway is not warranted given the cost and likelihood of a nonstop to Tokyo. I also would agree it’s not likely that all five will be full of international flights at any one time in the foreseeable future. That said, configuring a couple new-build gates to be able to accept intl passengers is just not in the same category of investment.


Here's a question. Is there any way to tell exactly how much the addition of the IAB and the construction of the several dual use as opposed to single use gates costs? It would be interesting to see the breakdown on that to know exactly how much is being spent on the international flight accommodations as opposed to general airport upgrades.


Construction costs are minimal because it’s within the footprint of the new gates in space that would otherwise have another back office use. Outfitting costs are probably somewhat more than if it was general back office space.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
miguel0881
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:16 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:

Nashville needed a bigger airport to handle growth the growth they’ve experienced. They decided as a part of that to allow more than one international flight at a time. That’s not a radical idea.

This is not some billion dollar separate white elephant terminal that will sit empty we’re talking about here. BA is loaded to return 1 August (assuming Feds approve more gateways) but plans to return. It’s not unfathomable at some point in the future that WN adds MBJ or a couple targeted Caribbean destinations (where Nashville has had charters in the past).

I actually agree with you that the runway extension or building an additional runway is not warranted given the cost and likelihood of a nonstop to Tokyo. I also would agree it’s not likely that all five will be full of international flights at any one time in the foreseeable future. That said, configuring a couple new-build gates to be able to accept intl passengers is just not in the same category of investment.


Here's a question. Is there any way to tell exactly how much the addition of the IAB and the construction of the several dual use as opposed to single use gates costs? It would be interesting to see the breakdown on that to know exactly how much is being spent on the international flight accommodations as opposed to general airport upgrades.


Construction costs are minimal because it’s within the footprint of the new gates in space that would otherwise have another back office use. Outfitting costs are probably somewhat more than if it was general back office space.


I doubt that. Nothing about construction costs is minimal, especially when FIS facilities are involved. Surely someone here is familiar enough with the proposals to shed some light on this.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:23 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:

Here's a question. Is there any way to tell exactly how much the addition of the IAB and the construction of the several dual use as opposed to single use gates costs? It would be interesting to see the breakdown on that to know exactly how much is being spent on the international flight accommodations as opposed to general airport upgrades.


Construction costs are minimal because it’s within the footprint of the new gates in space that would otherwise have another back office use. Outfitting costs are probably somewhat more than if it was general back office space.


I doubt that. Nothing about construction costs is minimal, especially when FIS facilities are involved. Surely someone here is familiar enough with the proposals to shed some light on this.


To compute a Delta, you’d have to assume some alternative use. You tell me.

Keep in mind, too, that this project cuts down on ongoing costs because it will eliminate towing off the current FIS gate (it likely also decreases the total amount of bag handling infrastructure). A discussion of costs has to account for that.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
miguel0881
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:26 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:

Construction costs are minimal because it’s within the footprint of the new gates in space that would otherwise have another back office use. Outfitting costs are probably somewhat more than if it was general back office space.


I doubt that. Nothing about construction costs is minimal, especially when FIS facilities are involved. Surely someone here is familiar enough with the proposals to shed some light on this.


To compute a Delta, you’d have to assume some alternative use. You tell me.

Keep in mind, too, that this project cuts down on ongoing costs because it will eliminate towing off the current FIS gate (it likely also decreases the total amount of bag handling infrastructure). A discussion of costs has to account for that.


The alternative obviously would be not constructing an IAB or modifying any related infrastructure to support its use. This had to have been debated ad nauseam in MNAA meetings and planning documents. So it should be very easy. What is the cost?
 
miguel0881
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Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:49 pm

Well, here are some nuggets about how much the international upgrades are costing:

Incredibly, BNA spent $8.2 million just to upgrade the existing interim IAB to support the LHR flight through 2023. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... y-2019.pdf. So BNA made an already sizable investment to a temporary facility upgrade for a flight that no longer exists!

The MNAA is then a bit more cagey about the cost of the new IAB, lumping it together in a single contract/package for "terminal lobby renovation and International Arrivals Facility," which is likely intended to obfuscate the obscene standalone cost of the IAB. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... v-2018.pdf.

But apparently the combined contract was $327 million, not accounting for any cost overruns. See https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/ ... 002452002/.

But I guess that's all very minimal and necessary for a possible one day flight to MBJ!
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 775
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:15 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
Well, here are some nuggets about how much the international upgrades are costing:

Incredibly, BNA spent $8.2 million just to upgrade the existing interim IAB to support the LHR flight through 2023. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... y-2019.pdf. So BNA made an already sizable investment to a temporary facility upgrade for a flight that no longer exists!

The MNAA is then a bit more cagey about the cost of the new IAB, lumping it together in a single contract/package for "terminal lobby renovation and International Arrivals Facility," which is likely intended to obfuscate the obscene standalone cost of the IAB. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... v-2018.pdf.

But apparently the combined contract was $327 million, not accounting for any cost overruns. See https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/ ... 002452002/.

But I guess that's all very minimal and necessary for a possible one day flight to MBJ!


So taking 6 domestic gates and converting them to dual domestic/international that are capable of handling widebody jets is too much? That is literally what is going on here. The FIS facility is only one part of the expansion, the vast majority of that money is going towards the lobby and gate areas upstairs, which will be used all the time

The BA flight is suspended, not cancelled. As has been stated ad nauseam, it will be back eventually, even if it takes a few years. I have actually taken the LHR flight and the current FIS facility is incredibly cramped and outdated, even with the interim upgrades. Also, WN will more than likely be adding several Latin America flights once it opens, the lack of FIS-capable gates is holding them back from international expansion at BNA.

I see from your post history that you use this thread to vent your rage about Nashville's growth rather than actually talk about the airport. If you don't like Nashville, don't post here.
 
TangoCharlie123
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:48 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:21 pm

Does anyone know how much BA has paid in landing and usage fees? I found the link for BNA’s rates (https://flynashville.com/wp-content/upl ... harges.pdf) but honestly have no idea how to even estimate how much they’ve paid.
 
reednavy
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:01 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:24 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
Well, here are some nuggets about how much the international upgrades are costing:

Incredibly, BNA spent $8.2 million just to upgrade the existing interim IAB to support the LHR flight through 2023. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... y-2019.pdf. So BNA made an already sizable investment to a temporary facility upgrade for a flight that no longer exists!

The MNAA is then a bit more cagey about the cost of the new IAB, lumping it together in a single contract/package for "terminal lobby renovation and International Arrivals Facility," which is likely intended to obfuscate the obscene standalone cost of the IAB. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... v-2018.pdf.

But apparently the combined contract was $327 million, not accounting for any cost overruns. See https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/ ... 002452002/.

But I guess that's all very minimal and necessary for a possible one day flight to MBJ!

So...what is your point exactly? You seem to put a lot of thought into something you have no part of and seem to know more than MNAA. Why don't you reach out to them since you seem to know what's best versus the experts that never saw the amount of growth BNA has experienced. NOBODY saw that growth coming to that level and nobody saw COVID bombing like it has done.
 
miguel0881
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:31 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
Well, here are some nuggets about how much the international upgrades are costing:

Incredibly, BNA spent $8.2 million just to upgrade the existing interim IAB to support the LHR flight through 2023. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... y-2019.pdf. So BNA made an already sizable investment to a temporary facility upgrade for a flight that no longer exists!

The MNAA is then a bit more cagey about the cost of the new IAB, lumping it together in a single contract/package for "terminal lobby renovation and International Arrivals Facility," which is likely intended to obfuscate the obscene standalone cost of the IAB. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... v-2018.pdf.

But apparently the combined contract was $327 million, not accounting for any cost overruns. See https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/ ... 002452002/.

But I guess that's all very minimal and necessary for a possible one day flight to MBJ!


So taking 6 domestic gates and converting them to dual domestic/international that are capable of handling widebody jets is too much? That is literally what is going on here. The FIS facility is only one part of the expansion, the vast majority of that money is going towards the lobby and gate areas upstairs, which will be used all the time

The BA flight is suspended, not cancelled. As has been stated ad nauseam, it will be back eventually, even if it takes a few years. I have actually taken the LHR flight and the current FIS facility is incredibly cramped and outdated, even with the interim upgrades. Also, WN will more than likely be adding several Latin America flights once it opens, the lack of FIS-capable gates is holding them back from international expansion at BNA.

I see from your post history that you use this thread to vent your rage about Nashville's growth rather than actually talk about the airport. If you don't like Nashville, don't post here.


But what is the cost? It seems to be significant (indeed, even the temporary FIS upgrade was significant), and neither you nor MNAA seem to want to confirm. I also see that a detailed environmental impact study was prepared, including for the new IAB, so I find it hard to believe the impact is truly minimal. And I have nothing against BNA at all. But I do take issue with wasteful spending, and this seems to be a very prime example. If we cannot question these things, then what is the purpose of this thread? Maybe you could just confirm the total cost and we could move on.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 775
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:48 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
Well, here are some nuggets about how much the international upgrades are costing:

Incredibly, BNA spent $8.2 million just to upgrade the existing interim IAB to support the LHR flight through 2023. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... y-2019.pdf. So BNA made an already sizable investment to a temporary facility upgrade for a flight that no longer exists!

The MNAA is then a bit more cagey about the cost of the new IAB, lumping it together in a single contract/package for "terminal lobby renovation and International Arrivals Facility," which is likely intended to obfuscate the obscene standalone cost of the IAB. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... v-2018.pdf.

But apparently the combined contract was $327 million, not accounting for any cost overruns. See https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/ ... 002452002/.

But I guess that's all very minimal and necessary for a possible one day flight to MBJ!


So taking 6 domestic gates and converting them to dual domestic/international that are capable of handling widebody jets is too much? That is literally what is going on here. The FIS facility is only one part of the expansion, the vast majority of that money is going towards the lobby and gate areas upstairs, which will be used all the time

The BA flight is suspended, not cancelled. As has been stated ad nauseam, it will be back eventually, even if it takes a few years. I have actually taken the LHR flight and the current FIS facility is incredibly cramped and outdated, even with the interim upgrades. Also, WN will more than likely be adding several Latin America flights once it opens, the lack of FIS-capable gates is holding them back from international expansion at BNA.

I see from your post history that you use this thread to vent your rage about Nashville's growth rather than actually talk about the airport. If you don't like Nashville, don't post here.


But what is the cost? It seems to be significant (indeed, even the temporary FIS upgrade was significant), and neither you nor MNAA seem to want to confirm. I also see that a detailed environmental impact study was prepared, including for the new IAB, so I find it hard to believe the impact is truly minimal. And I have nothing against BNA at all. But I do take issue with wasteful spending, and this seems to be a very prime example. If we cannot question these things, then what is the purpose of this thread? Maybe you could just confirm the total cost and we could move on.


1. The number is within the $327 million you quoted earlier. If it is that pressing for you to know, reach out to MNAA and find out for yourself. I don’t really understand why it is a big deal to you when tax dollars aren’t being used, it’s entirely user paid.

2. The environmental impact statement was for the entire project, not just the FIS. An EIS has to be done for any major infrastructure project.

3. This is far from wasteful spending. If anything, you could argue MNAA was/is being too conservative at times (though it’s good that they were in hindsight). I know of far more wasteful projects (airport and otherwise) around the country.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14425
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:22 pm

miguel0881 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
Well, here are some nuggets about how much the international upgrades are costing:

Incredibly, BNA spent $8.2 million just to upgrade the existing interim IAB to support the LHR flight through 2023. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... y-2019.pdf. So BNA made an already sizable investment to a temporary facility upgrade for a flight that no longer exists!

The MNAA is then a bit more cagey about the cost of the new IAB, lumping it together in a single contract/package for "terminal lobby renovation and International Arrivals Facility," which is likely intended to obfuscate the obscene standalone cost of the IAB. See https://bnavisionnashville.com/site/web ... v-2018.pdf.

But apparently the combined contract was $327 million, not accounting for any cost overruns. See https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/ ... 002452002/.

But I guess that's all very minimal and necessary for a possible one day flight to MBJ!


So taking 6 domestic gates and converting them to dual domestic/international that are capable of handling widebody jets is too much? That is literally what is going on here. The FIS facility is only one part of the expansion, the vast majority of that money is going towards the lobby and gate areas upstairs, which will be used all the time

The BA flight is suspended, not cancelled. As has been stated ad nauseam, it will be back eventually, even if it takes a few years. I have actually taken the LHR flight and the current FIS facility is incredibly cramped and outdated, even with the interim upgrades. Also, WN will more than likely be adding several Latin America flights once it opens, the lack of FIS-capable gates is holding them back from international expansion at BNA.

I see from your post history that you use this thread to vent your rage about Nashville's growth rather than actually talk about the airport. If you don't like Nashville, don't post here.


But what is the cost? It seems to be significant (indeed, even the temporary FIS upgrade was significant), and neither you nor MNAA seem to want to confirm. I also see that a detailed environmental impact study was prepared, including for the new IAB, so I find it hard to believe the impact is truly minimal. And I have nothing against BNA at all. But I do take issue with wasteful spending, and this seems to be a very prime example. If we cannot question these things, then what is the purpose of this thread? Maybe you could just confirm the total cost and we could move on.


Miguel, when was the last time you used BNA? There’s a fair amount of operational background that I think you’re missing but I’m not sure how much history I need to give you for it to make sense.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
miguel0881
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am

Re: Nashville Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:50 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
miguel0881 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

So taking 6 domestic gates and converting them to dual domestic/international that are capable of handling widebody jets is too much? That is literally what is going on here. The FIS facility is only one part of the expansion, the vast majority of that money is going towards the lobby and gate areas upstairs, which will be used all the time

The BA flight is suspended, not cancelled. As has been stated ad nauseam, it will be back eventually, even if it takes a few years. I have actually taken the LHR flight and the current FIS facility is incredibly cramped and outdated, even with the interim upgrades. Also, WN will more than likely be adding several Latin America flights once it opens, the lack of FIS-capable gates is holding them back from international expansion at BNA.

I see from your post history that you use this thread to vent your rage about Nashville's growth rather than actually talk about the airport. If you don't like Nashville, don't post here.


But what is the cost? It seems to be significant (indeed, even the temporary FIS upgrade was significant), and neither you nor MNAA seem to want to confirm. I also see that a detailed environmental impact study was prepared, including for the new IAB, so I find it hard to believe the impact is truly minimal. And I have nothing against BNA at all. But I do take issue with wasteful spending, and this seems to be a very prime example. If we cannot question these things, then what is the purpose of this thread? Maybe you could just confirm the total cost and we could move on.


Miguel, when was the last time you used BNA? There’s a fair amount of operational background that I think you’re missing but I’m not sure how much history I need to give you for it to make sense.


I am not a frequent user of BNA, so happy to have any background you think is helpful. But I do find it curious the more I look into it that MNAA does not anywhere mention the standalone cost of the IAB, and instead lumps it together with the lobby remodel. If it was a truly a minimal cost, as many here maintain, and if the lobby remodel represents the vast majority of the $327 million, then wouldn't they would be eager to highlight that fact? And while I understand that BNA has experienced unprecedented growth, I note for comparison's sake that WN only recently inaugurated a five-gate international terminal in FLL, which is one of their premier international markets. So the idea that BNA will soon make full use of their six-gate IAB facility is not very credible.

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