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argentinevol98
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:05 pm

I can't see the 737-10s going TATL especially given the 50 a/c A321XLR order which seems very clearly targeted at that exact market (I can't see UA or any US3 carrier needing more than 50 TATL nbs). Perhaps it might make some hops to Ireland which seems more manageable range-wise but outside of that I see a dead-end. However, I could see the aircraft being used to offer a better premium product between large domestic business centers (especially on hub to hub routes like EWR-ORD) and being used to beef up some LATAM flying (where UA is going to soon be a distant 3rd to AA and DL). I also see room for some north-south routes like EWR/IAD-MIA/FLL and transcons ex-IAD.
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
Antarius
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:10 pm

Ronaldo747 wrote:
Regardless of this premium heavy config it will be not enough for a reasonable, secured year-round transatlantic range.


So glad UA has a.net experts to fact check their planning. What were they thinking!
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
chonetsao
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:15 pm

United B737-MAX10 will have 10% more premium lie-flat seat than AA's B788. Brilliant.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:20 pm

chonetsao wrote:
United B737-MAX10 will have 10% more premium lie-flat seat than AA's B788. Brilliant.


That is actually very sad. AA 788s should have at least 28 seats but Dougie boy would never allow that.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:27 pm

Ronaldo747 wrote:
Regardless of this premium heavy config it will be not enough for a reasonable, secured year-round transatlantic range.


You have no idea if that’s correct or not. Don’t spew things that aren’t necessarily true.
Whatever
 
alasizon
Posts: 2623
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:28 pm

chonetsao wrote:
United B737-MAX10 will have 10% more premium lie-flat seat than AA's B788. Brilliant.


And also 10% more than AA's 332 and 25% more than the UA 757s they are replacing. All of which is irrelevant as they are going to be operating different segments than the AA widebodies and are targeting a bigger portion of the domestic F/J market.

Personally I think they should have stopped at 18 or 20 as opposed to 22 because the number of markets that can support that many paid J seats at the expense of the "wasted" real estate for upgrades is going to be tough. I don't see it making sense for a 50 plane fleet. 30-35 aircraft I could understand but 50 is probably pushing the envelope a bit on sustainable markets at good yield.
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Cointrin330
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:44 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
This is not new news. The 737-MAX10 is the designated 757 replacement for UA's transcon service other than the 772s/77Ws/787-10s that are also flown on select flights. As for TATL, unlikely the MAX10 will appear on thin TATL routes. UA ordered the A321XLR and that's likely going to be the plane for such routes.


Did you know they were going offer all direct aisle access seats before this? We’re you anticipating this many premium seats? Did you know that the configuration was going to give the aircraft a range boost?


That many premium seats? Yes. And yes, fewer seats means the range is even greater. Nothing new here.
 
GoSharks
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:05 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
This is not new news. The 737-MAX10 is the designated 757 replacement for UA's transcon service other than the 772s/77Ws/787-10s that are also flown on select flights. As for TATL, unlikely the MAX10 will appear on thin TATL routes. UA ordered the A321XLR and that's likely going to be the plane for such routes.

The LOPA/herringbone layout/seat count is certainly new news.
 
jayunited
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:35 am

alasizon wrote:
And also 10% more than AA's 332 and 25% more than the UA 757s they are replacing. All of which is irrelevant as they are going to be operating different segments than the AA widebodies and are targeting a bigger portion of the domestic F/J market.

Personally I think they should have stopped at 18 or 20 as opposed to 22 because the number of markets that can support that many paid J seats at the expense of the "wasted" real estate for upgrades is going to be tough. I don't see it making sense for a 50 plane fleet. 30-35 aircraft I could understand but 50 is probably pushing the envelope a bit on sustainable markets at good yield.


I'm willing to go out on a limb and say these aircraft will be on transcon routes. Having said that both EWR and SFO have an extremely high number of G.S. and 1K passengers, also even now UA on our SFO/LAX-EWR routes no longer gives the upgrade away for free so customers either have to use their miles or pay for the upgrade. Before COVID-19 very few upgrades and in some cased no upgrades were clearing onSFO/LAX-EWR because business class was booked full.

All though UA has stop publicly talking about United Coast (they learned the lessons from Polaris don't talk publicly about a product that won't truly exist for years to come) the work continues because our premium customers on these long coast to coast flights want more comfort. So you will see this aircraft on routes like EWR-SFO/SEA/LAX/SAN/PDX/SMF, SFO-IAD/EWR/BOS/DCA/BWI/RDU/FLL/MCO/ perhaps SFO-TPA/ATL/CLT, and LAX-EWR/IAD/BOS/MCO.

Also as someone else already pointed out less seats on the MAX10 should equate to greater range which means these aircraft should be able to fly BOS-LAX with a full load of passengers in the dead of winter with a wind on the nose the whole way across the country and not need to make a fuel stop. Right now even UA's 738s struggle to make it during winter if the flight is fighting a headwind.
 
EssentialBusDC
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:39 am

FriscoHeavy wrote:
Ronaldo747 wrote:
Regardless of this premium heavy config it will be not enough for a reasonable, secured year-round transatlantic range.


You have no idea if that’s correct or not. Don’t spew things that aren’t necessarily true.


Boeing lists the Max10 as have the shortest range of all the Max variants at 3300NM. And it requires 1 aux fuel tank to get that far. 3300NM from EWR doesn’t even get you to most of Germany

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=3300nm%40+ ... =wls&DU=mi

Factor in westbound issues and such and realistically it’s a 2800-3000NM aircraft. Which means strictly Ireland and the UK.

DC
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:47 am

jayunited wrote:
All though UA has stop publicly talking about United Coast (they learned the lessons from Polaris don't talk publicly about a product that won't truly exist for years to come) the work continues because our premium customers on these long coast to coast flights want more comfort. So you will see this aircraft on routes like EWR-SFO/SEA/LAX/SAN/PDX/SMF, SFO-IAD/EWR/BOS/DCA/BWI/RDU/FLL/MCO/ perhaps SFO-TPA/ATL/CLT, and LAX-EWR/IAD/BOS/MCO.


Seriously? You think they're going to get sufficient paid premium demand on a route like EWR-SMF, or SFO-RDU, or SFO-CLT? I'll take the under on that in a big way. It's not just the distance or departure time that determines premium demand for lie-flats - it's a high income/big business market.
 
ordbosewr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:58 am

Midwestindy wrote:
TYSflyer wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
April Coronavirus cuts from SFO I have seen:
EWR-LAS -3
EWR-LAX -3
EWR-SFO -3
EWR-MIA -2
EWR-PIT -2
EWR-BNA -1
EWR-CLE -1
EWR-CMH -1
EWR-DEN -1
EWR-DFW -1
EWR-DTW -1
EWR-OMA -1
EWR-ORD -1
EWR-PDX -1
EWR-PHX -1
EWR-RDU -1
EWR-SEA -1
Ran out of energy

*EWR-SLC gone for April


Ok, this is the problem UA will now have,did they cut too much?
A trip I was planning to take for Spring break just went from $600 roundtrip to $900 per person(and I am booking for 6!!! that is low end I am see, other routings are looking like over 100% fare increase, yes, $1,200 roundtrip for economy domestic travel) non-stop, I can still connect at a lower fare.
Also, it looks like some of those cuts mentioned above are one direction but the reverse segments may not be cut as much.

I know I may be panned for this. But if stimulating demand is what you want having a net fare increase of 50%(or more) on the routes is not going to result in more bookings. I will also say maybe it is the location I was planning, but now my wife and I are on to plan b.
 
alasizon
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:16 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
All though UA has stop publicly talking about United Coast (they learned the lessons from Polaris don't talk publicly about a product that won't truly exist for years to come) the work continues because our premium customers on these long coast to coast flights want more comfort. So you will see this aircraft on routes like EWR-SFO/SEA/LAX/SAN/PDX/SMF, SFO-IAD/EWR/BOS/DCA/BWI/RDU/FLL/MCO/ perhaps SFO-TPA/ATL/CLT, and LAX-EWR/IAD/BOS/MCO.


Seriously? You think they're going to get sufficient paid premium demand on a route like EWR-SMF, or SFO-RDU, or SFO-CLT? I'll take the under on that in a big way. It's not just the distance or departure time that determines premium demand for lie-flats - it's a high income/big business market.


SFO-RDU probably has the chops but I agree that some of the markets are less likely. I just don't see a fifty plane fleet. I think UA is making smart moves domestically but I'm not sure they all add up to support 50 aircraft (remember, the HD 772s aren't going anywhere as of yet so they will still do some of the hub-hub transcon lifting).
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
GmoneyCO
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:36 am

319:
N835UA - Completed second test flight on 4-Mar/2700. Should be ready to be back in service soon
Future N884UA (B6207) - SHE as of 9-Feb

320:
Future N1913U  (EC-LQN) - Completed test hop at OSR on 26-Feb. Should be ready to be transferred to UA soon
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:54 pm

738:
N14219 entered AMA 2750/7Mar for EvoBlu livery

752:
N19117 sked to exit MIA 2761/8Mar in 16/160 config.

789:
N26966 sked to exit VCV 2758/10Mar, expect EvoBlu livery even though current paint is from 2016
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:17 pm

772GE: N77019 Polaris Mod HKG to GUM on Mar 11

Only 2 PW and 3 GE left to go in for 772 Polaris Mod!
 
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cosyr
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:19 pm

jayunited wrote:
alasizon wrote:
And also 10% more than AA's 332 and 25% more than the UA 757s they are replacing. All of which is irrelevant as they are going to be operating different segments than the AA widebodies and are targeting a bigger portion of the domestic F/J market.

Personally I think they should have stopped at 18 or 20 as opposed to 22 because the number of markets that can support that many paid J seats at the expense of the "wasted" real estate for upgrades is going to be tough. I don't see it making sense for a 50 plane fleet. 30-35 aircraft I could understand but 50 is probably pushing the envelope a bit on sustainable markets at good yield.


I'm willing to go out on a limb and say these aircraft will be on transcon routes. Having said that both EWR and SFO have an extremely high number of G.S. and 1K passengers, also even now UA on our SFO/LAX-EWR routes no longer gives the upgrade away for free so customers either have to use their miles or pay for the upgrade. Before COVID-19 very few upgrades and in some cased no upgrades were clearing onSFO/LAX-EWR because business class was booked full.

All though UA has stop publicly talking about United Coast (they learned the lessons from Polaris don't talk publicly about a product that won't truly exist for years to come) the work continues because our premium customers on these long coast to coast flights want more comfort. So you will see this aircraft on routes like EWR-SFO/SEA/LAX/SAN/PDX/SMF, SFO-IAD/EWR/BOS/DCA/BWI/RDU/FLL/MCO/ perhaps SFO-TPA/ATL/CLT, and LAX-EWR/IAD/BOS/MCO.

Also as someone else already pointed out less seats on the MAX10 should equate to greater range which means these aircraft should be able to fly BOS-LAX with a full load of passengers in the dead of winter with a wind on the nose the whole way across the country and not need to make a fuel stop. Right now even UA's 738s struggle to make it during winter if the flight is fighting a headwind.

AA is currently the only of the 3 that has 3 classes of service on transcons. These new seats will exceed AA's J class, and approach AA's F, though reverse herringbone offer more space and privacy than regular herringbone (at the expense of seat density, so I understand why UA didn't do that.) But if UA really wanted to offer something different, they could be the first airline to offer domestic Premium Plus. Just put in 3 rows of 5 across PP seats, then half Y+ and half regular Y, it would be brilliant!
 
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CALTECH
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:35 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
tpaewr wrote:
The “meatball” was Saul Bass logo (same guy as the Tulip) it rolled out under Robert Six in 1968, the same era as CO first Pacific Ops.

Frank was in his late 20s and not remotely involved.


That's correct, but the original Bass tail logo was a black ball (there was also minor use of a red ball). It was during the Lorenzo era that the tail logo changed from the black ball to the a red ball, also known as the meatball.

So for many CO employees, the red ball / meatball is very symbolic of the Lorenzo era and all the bad times and corporate greed that it represented.


Late Spring / Summer (?) 1985, we had a 727-224 in the HMV line in Bay 4B at LAX. Ran out of black paint, backorder would take time. Plane needed to get into service. Plenty of red paint around. Painted the tail meatball red. Already had red meatballs on the fuselage and other items. Old timers hated it, reminded them of the rising sun. High ups took a lot of pictures, and the next airplane went red too. Seemed to reflect the airlines financials at that time too.
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CALTECH
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:42 pm

United is inducting new 787-9 aircraft from Boeing (nose # 0975-0987) and performing a
modification that reconfigures the existing 787-9 aircraft (nose # 0950-0974) from a 2-class
configuration with 252 PAX (48 Business / 88 Economy Plus / 116 Economy) to the new All
Aisle Access (AAA) and Premium Economy 3-class configuration with 257 PAX (48 Business
/ 21 Premium Economy / 39 Economy Plus / 149 Economy).

Aircraft 0975 is the first aircraft to be delivered new from Boeing and is scheduled to enter
revenue service in February 2020. :banghead:

Aircraft 0968 is the first aircraft to retrofitted and is scheduled to enter revenue service in
March 2020.

787-9 All-Aisle-Access (Polaris) and Premium Economy
(PEY) Modification Differences
Page 2 of 8
Interior Cabin Differences:
 New Polaris Optima Business Class Seats replace previous Diamond seats.
 New Premium Economy Cabin with new MiQ seats from Collins Aerospace
 New Economy Cabin with new Aspire seats from Collins Aerospace (0975-0987)
 Rework and refresh of the existing Collins Pinnacle Economy Class seats (0950-0974)
 New class dividers in Premium Economy and Economy cabins
 New Floor Mounted Attendant Stowage (FMAS) units in aft galley area
 New carpet, curtains and branding plaques / panels are installed throughout

Lavatories:
 New Jamco lavatories (0974-0987)
 New Jamco L1F-1L, L3F-1LC/1RC, L3F-1L/1R lavatories (0950-0974)
 Refurbished Jamco L1A-1R and L2A-1R lavatories to match new interior décor (0950-0974)

Galleys:
 New Jamco galleys (0975-0987)
 New Jamco G2F-1R, G2F-1L, and G2A-1L galleys (0950-0974)
 Refurbished Jamco G1F-1C, G2F-1C, G2A-1C, G3A-1C and G4A-1C galleys to restore and
update to match new interior décor (0950-0974)
 New galley floor mats

IFE/Wi-Fi:
 Award winning Passenger GUI (Graphic User Interface)
o Includes new color schemes and Text to Speech capability
 GCS (Global Communications System) Upgrade
o Upgrade allows gate to gate Wi-Fi connectivity
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CALTECH
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:49 pm

8 March 2020 777-222s

# 2471 EWR-MCO-ORD 1587/633

# 2510 ORD-MCO-EWR 659/1601

# 2888 ORD-MCO-ORD 848/411
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CALTECH
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:02 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
jayunited wrote:

Just when you thought things could not get anymore crazier they just did.


The amount of money and time UA is spending on moving planes back and forth to Asia to do retrofit and/or routing maintenance is staggering. Is there no place in the the US that can do this work? Is the labor savings in Asia the big reason this work is outsourced?

It seems like this type of upgrade work will go on for years and I would think that there a huge opportunity for a company to set up shop on US soil and perform this service. Keeping the talent and $ in the US would have benefits as well.


jetblastdubai wrote:
codc10 wrote:

I think this tells you how much cheaper labor is overseas. Heavy checks and interior mods on widebodies are extremely labor-intensive tasks, requiring tens of thousands of man-hours. Even Delta, the leader among the US3 in maintenance 'insourcing', is doing its D1 mods in Asia (764s in CAN, 777s in SIN).

The fuel and crew expense to ferry aircraft to/from Asia is a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to the labor savings. We're also in a time of low fuel prices, so the cost to gas up an empty 777 to fly to GUM, XMN, HKG or elsewhere isn't a tremendous consideration.


Those "tens of thousands of man-hours" would be nice to keep in the US if even they were in the ballpark of competitive wages.

Is this retrofit work all done my licenses AP mechanics or is some/most of the manual work done by general laborers? I realize there's a lot of certification/supervision responsibility but I can't imagine that unbolting old seats and bolting in new seats requires a diploma etc.


Can't beat the price in China, for now, maybe never. UAL MX Reps are with every aircraft over in China. They are repair facilities.

https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/air_carriers ... /part_145/

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/m ... 02-122.pdf
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jayunited
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:33 pm

alasizon wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
All though UA has stop publicly talking about United Coast (they learned the lessons from Polaris don't talk publicly about a product that won't truly exist for years to come) the work continues because our premium customers on these long coast to coast flights want more comfort. So you will see this aircraft on routes like EWR-SFO/SEA/LAX/SAN/PDX/SMF, SFO-IAD/EWR/BOS/DCA/BWI/RDU/FLL/MCO/ perhaps SFO-TPA/ATL/CLT, and LAX-EWR/IAD/BOS/MCO.


Seriously? You think they're going to get sufficient paid premium demand on a route like EWR-SMF, or SFO-RDU, or SFO-CLT? I'll take the under on that in a big way. It's not just the distance or departure time that determines premium demand for lie-flats - it's a high income/big business market.


SFO-RDU probably has the chops but I agree that some of the markets are less likely. I just don't see a fifty plane fleet. I think UA is making smart moves domestically but I'm not sure they all add up to support 50 aircraft (remember, the HD 772s aren't going anywhere as of yet so they will still do some of the hub-hub transcon lifting).


I never stated or implied that the HD 772 were going anywhere. Of course the HD 772s are staying on the hub to hub routes the MAX10 would replace the 752s. A MAX 10 can not replace a 366 seat 77A never said they would.

On many of the coast to coast routes that I mentioned especially out of SFO and EWR demand outstrips supply for first class seats. If we take the upgrade list and jettison the silver, gold, and platinum members who don't have a chance in hell of getting an upgrade and just leave the 1K's and G.S. passengers demand for premium seating just from those two groups outstrips supply on many of the coast to coast routes I mentioned. The only time we really don't see G.S. passengers on the upgrade list is when the flight is operated by either a 78X with 44 lie flat seats or a 77W with 60 lie flat seats. But on flights operated on the HD 77A, or 757-200 both versions( 28 seats or 16 seats) demand out strips supply.

United has 2 really great hubs in 2 strong business locations SFO and EWR the demand for 22 lie flat seats is there for multiple downline locations on the opposite coast. Perhaps my list was a bit more generous than others but I seriously doubt you will see these aircraft at any interior hub location I believe these aircraft will be use greatly from our hubs at SFO and EWR and to a lessor extent from our hubs at LAX and IAD to hubs and line stations on the opposite coast. Also to try and catch B6 you might even see UA deploy a few frames on our EWR-Florida routes. If you really want to know what UA is planning to do with the MAX10 just take a look at what B6 is doing with their MINT product. They came up with the original blue print and while I have no idea what UA's final plans look like I do know UA is determined to try and catch up to MINT with lie flat seating on quite a few of our coast to coast flights.
 
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CALTECH
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:58 pm

Acft in for POLARIS

# 6452
# 6673

# 0009
# 0012
# 0019
# 0021
# 0022
# 2885

# 0907
# 0969

Full Paint
# 0011 AMA
# 0020 VCV
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Nicknuzzii
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:12 pm

jayunited wrote:
alasizon wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Seriously? You think they're going to get sufficient paid premium demand on a route like EWR-SMF, or SFO-RDU, or SFO-CLT? I'll take the under on that in a big way. It's not just the distance or departure time that determines premium demand for lie-flats - it's a high income/big business market.


SFO-RDU probably has the chops but I agree that some of the markets are less likely. I just don't see a fifty plane fleet. I think UA is making smart moves domestically but I'm not sure they all add up to support 50 aircraft (remember, the HD 772s aren't going anywhere as of yet so they will still do some of the hub-hub transcon lifting).


I never stated or implied that the HD 772 were going anywhere. Of course the HD 772s are staying on the hub to hub routes the MAX10 would replace the 752s. A MAX 10 can not replace a 366 seat 77A never said they would.

On many of the coast to coast routes that I mentioned especially out of SFO and EWR demand outstrips supply for first class seats. If we take the upgrade list and jettison the silver, gold, and platinum members who don't have a chance in hell of getting an upgrade and just leave the 1K's and G.S. passengers demand for premium seating just from those two groups outstrips supply on many of the coast to coast routes I mentioned. The only time we really don't see G.S. passengers on the upgrade list is when the flight is operated by either a 78X with 44 lie flat seats or a 77W with 60 lie flat seats. But on flights operated on the HD 77A, or 757-200 both versions( 28 seats or 16 seats) demand out strips supply.

United has 2 really great hubs in 2 strong business locations SFO and EWR the demand for 22 lie flat seats is there for multiple downline locations on the opposite coast. Perhaps my list was a bit more generous than others but I seriously doubt you will see these aircraft at any interior hub location I believe these aircraft will be use greatly from our hubs at SFO and EWR and to a lessor extent from our hubs at LAX and IAD to hubs and line stations on the opposite coast. Also to try and catch B6 you might even see UA deploy a few frames on our EWR-Florida routes. If you really want to know what UA is planning to do with the MAX10 just take a look at what B6 is doing with their MINT product. They came up with the original blue print and while I have no idea what UA's final plans look like I do know UA is determined to try and catch up to MINT with lie flat seating on quite a few of our coast to coast flights.


Because the Max 10 will be smaller than the 757s it’s replacing do you see UA adding frequencies on EWR- SFO/LAX? I think SFO and LAX could support 20 and 18 flights respectively if all were operated by the Max.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2101
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:23 pm

CALTECH wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
That's correct, but the original Bass tail logo was a black ball (there was also minor use of a red ball). It was during the Lorenzo era that the tail logo changed from the black ball to the a red ball, also known as the meatball.

So for many CO employees, the red ball / meatball is very symbolic of the Lorenzo era and all the bad times and corporate greed that it represented.


Late Spring / Summer (?) 1985, we had a 727-224 in the HMV line in Bay 4B at LAX. Ran out of black paint, backorder would take time. Plane needed to get into service. Plenty of red paint around. Painted the tail meatball red. Already had red meatballs on the fuselage and other items. Old timers hated it, reminded them of the rising sun. High ups took a lot of pictures, and the next airplane went red too. Seemed to reflect the airlines financials at that time too.


Interesting - that's exactly how I referred to those times, too. That is, the red meatball reflected the airline being "in the red."
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
maximairways
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:05 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:50 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
jayunited wrote:
alasizon wrote:

SFO-RDU probably has the chops but I agree that some of the markets are less likely. I just don't see a fifty plane fleet. I think UA is making smart moves domestically but I'm not sure they all add up to support 50 aircraft (remember, the HD 772s aren't going anywhere as of yet so they will still do some of the hub-hub transcon lifting).


I never stated or implied that the HD 772 were going anywhere. Of course the HD 772s are staying on the hub to hub routes the MAX10 would replace the 752s. A MAX 10 can not replace a 366 seat 77A never said they would.

On many of the coast to coast routes that I mentioned especially out of SFO and EWR demand outstrips supply for first class seats. If we take the upgrade list and jettison the silver, gold, and platinum members who don't have a chance in hell of getting an upgrade and just leave the 1K's and G.S. passengers demand for premium seating just from those two groups outstrips supply on many of the coast to coast routes I mentioned. The only time we really don't see G.S. passengers on the upgrade list is when the flight is operated by either a 78X with 44 lie flat seats or a 77W with 60 lie flat seats. But on flights operated on the HD 77A, or 757-200 both versions( 28 seats or 16 seats) demand out strips supply.

United has 2 really great hubs in 2 strong business locations SFO and EWR the demand for 22 lie flat seats is there for multiple downline locations on the opposite coast. Perhaps my list was a bit more generous than others but I seriously doubt you will see these aircraft at any interior hub location I believe these aircraft will be use greatly from our hubs at SFO and EWR and to a lessor extent from our hubs at LAX and IAD to hubs and line stations on the opposite coast. Also to try and catch B6 you might even see UA deploy a few frames on our EWR-Florida routes. If you really want to know what UA is planning to do with the MAX10 just take a look at what B6 is doing with their MINT product. They came up with the original blue print and while I have no idea what UA's final plans look like I do know UA is determined to try and catch up to MINT with lie flat seating on quite a few of our coast to coast flights.


Because the Max 10 will be smaller than the 757s it’s replacing do you see UA adding frequencies on EWR- SFO/LAX? I think SFO and LAX could support 20 and 18 flights respectively if all were operated by the Max.


The MAX10 is almost the same size as 757-200. Max seating capacity is 230 vs 239.
 
VC10er
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:18 pm

jayunited wrote:
alasizon wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Seriously? You think they're going to get sufficient paid premium demand on a route like EWR-SMF, or SFO-RDU, or SFO-CLT? I'll take the under on that in a big way. It's not just the distance or departure time that determines premium demand for lie-flats - it's a high income/big business market.


SFO-RDU probably has the chops but I agree that some of the markets are less likely. I just don't see a fifty plane fleet. I think UA is making smart moves domestically but I'm not sure they all add up to support 50 aircraft (remember, the HD 772s aren't going anywhere as of yet so they will still do some of the hub-hub transcon lifting).


I never stated or implied that the HD 772 were going anywhere. Of course the HD 772s are staying on the hub to hub routes the MAX10 would replace the 752s. A MAX 10 can not replace a 366 seat 77A never said they would.

On many of the coast to coast routes that I mentioned especially out of SFO and EWR demand outstrips supply for first class seats. If we take the upgrade list and jettison the silver, gold, and platinum members who don't have a chance in hell of getting an upgrade and just leave the 1K's and G.S. passengers demand for premium seating just from those two groups outstrips supply on many of the coast to coast routes I mentioned. The only time we really don't see G.S. passengers on the upgrade list is when the flight is operated by either a 78X with 44 lie flat seats or a 77W with 60 lie flat seats. But on flights operated on the HD 77A, or 757-200 both versions( 28 seats or 16 seats) demand out strips supply.

United has 2 really great hubs in 2 strong business locations SFO and EWR the demand for 22 lie flat seats is there for multiple downline locations on the opposite coast. Perhaps my list was a bit more generous than others but I seriously doubt you will see these aircraft at any interior hub location I believe these aircraft will be use greatly from our hubs at SFO and EWR and to a lessor extent from our hubs at LAX and IAD to hubs and line stations on the opposite coast. Also to try and catch B6 you might even see UA deploy a few frames on our EWR-Florida routes. If you really want to know what UA is planning to do with the MAX10 just take a look at what B6 is doing with their MINT product. They came up with the original blue print and while I have no idea what UA's final plans look like I do know UA is determined to try and catch up to MINT with lie flat seating on quite a few of our coast to coast flights.


I personally think that with 50 737-10’s, United could become the US airline with the most domestic lie flat AAA aircraft of the majors. Aside from EWR/LAX-SFO, I can envision more “worth the up-charge” for SFO/LAX to MIA/FLL, EWR/LGA to Denver, or even Las Vegas!
As southern Florida is like NYC’s 6th borough (and NJ) EWR to FLL/MIA would be AMAZING! (today there is at least 1 752 to MIA)
But these 737-10s should mostly be used for long haul Polaris Pax arriving at a big hub such as IAH, IAD, SFO, & ORD who then (after being re-screened, etc) then forward onto a 3+ hour flight...the last 3 hours just made you trip feel very inconsistent!
When I go to GIG through IAH, gone will be the days of a 738 to EWR. Today its a 752 or 763 to EWR at just the right time. So from end to end it's a very consistent comfortable experience even if it's a true Polaris Long Haul, then connecting to a Diamond seat. It makes a HUGE difference!
Even EWR/LAG to ORD. Sometimes I AM THE WALKING DEAD after a day long intense meeting in Chicago, then dinner- race to ORD and get a lie flat: GLORIOUS!!!
Bring ‘em on, ALL 50 of the 737-10!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:48 pm

Anyone have any ideas on the economy configuration for the Max 10? I’m thinking if they are going premium it could be 22/42/66, could it fit more? Furthermore do we see UA do a 24 domestic first class seats on the stand Max 10s or do they keep it the same as the -9?
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:59 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Anyone have any ideas on the economy configuration for the Max 10? I’m thinking if they are going premium it could be 22/42/66, could it fit more? Furthermore do we see UA do a 24 domestic first class seats on the stand Max 10s or do they keep it the same as the -9?


I believe that the UA739s all have 20 first class seats.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:05 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Anyone have any ideas on the economy configuration for the Max 10? I’m thinking if they are going premium it could be 22/42/66, could it fit more? Furthermore do we see UA do a 24 domestic first class seats on the stand Max 10s or do they keep it the same as the -9?


I believe that the UA739s all have 20 first class seats.


Yes the -9s do but I’m curious bout the -10s
 
argentinevol98
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:40 pm

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:00 pm

cosyr wrote:
jayunited wrote:
alasizon wrote:
And also 10% more than AA's 332 and 25% more than the UA 757s they are replacing. All of which is irrelevant as they are going to be operating different segments than the AA widebodies and are targeting a bigger portion of the domestic F/J market.

Personally I think they should have stopped at 18 or 20 as opposed to 22 because the number of markets that can support that many paid J seats at the expense of the "wasted" real estate for upgrades is going to be tough. I don't see it making sense for a 50 plane fleet. 30-35 aircraft I could understand but 50 is probably pushing the envelope a bit on sustainable markets at good yield.


I'm willing to go out on a limb and say these aircraft will be on transcon routes. Having said that both EWR and SFO have an extremely high number of G.S. and 1K passengers, also even now UA on our SFO/LAX-EWR routes no longer gives the upgrade away for free so customers either have to use their miles or pay for the upgrade. Before COVID-19 very few upgrades and in some cased no upgrades were clearing onSFO/LAX-EWR because business class was booked full.

All though UA has stop publicly talking about United Coast (they learned the lessons from Polaris don't talk publicly about a product that won't truly exist for years to come) the work continues because our premium customers on these long coast to coast flights want more comfort. So you will see this aircraft on routes like EWR-SFO/SEA/LAX/SAN/PDX/SMF, SFO-IAD/EWR/BOS/DCA/BWI/RDU/FLL/MCO/ perhaps SFO-TPA/ATL/CLT, and LAX-EWR/IAD/BOS/MCO.

Also as someone else already pointed out less seats on the MAX10 should equate to greater range which means these aircraft should be able to fly BOS-LAX with a full load of passengers in the dead of winter with a wind on the nose the whole way across the country and not need to make a fuel stop. Right now even UA's 738s struggle to make it during winter if the flight is fighting a headwind.

AA is currently the only of the 3 that has 3 classes of service on transcons. These new seats will exceed AA's J class, and approach AA's F, though reverse herringbone offer more space and privacy than regular herringbone (at the expense of seat density, so I understand why UA didn't do that.) But if UA really wanted to offer something different, they could be the first airline to offer domestic Premium Plus. Just put in 3 rows of 5 across PP seats, then half Y+ and half regular Y, it would be brilliant!


I've also thought for a while now as well that there was a market for a 2-3 W product for transcons with probably like 36" or perhaps up to 38" pitch. Slightly differentiate it from your standard 2-2 domestic F seat. JL has 738s with a 2-3 J product for shorter domestic flights as does SAA on their A319s. I think it could sell well-a lot of people that want something more that a simple Y+ but are unwilling to pay for a lie-flat J seat could definitely go for it.
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
Ronaldo747
Posts: 394
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:50 pm

Antarius wrote:
So glad UA has a.net experts to fact check their planning. What were they thinking!

FriscoHeavy wrote:
You have no idea if that’s correct or not. Don’t spew things that aren’t necessarily true.


Take it easy guys! The A321XLR order changes things a bit.

It may be a handful of routes to UK/Ireland, yes (I don't believe it though). But with the A321neoXLR on the horizon,, the -10 makes makes perfectly sense for transcons and Westcoast-Hawaii against AA 321s.
 
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calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3233
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:46 pm

The MAX10 is 64 inches longer than the MAX9. I'm assuming the 64 extra inches of length are evenly placed before and after the wing.

As for the MAX10 trranscon version, if the 739MAX10 F seats are the Thompson Vantage Solo, they are 33 inch pitch. I'm glad UA looks to be moving the lav back behind F. At 33 inch pitch 11 rows of Vantage Solo seats would take up 330 inches and the lav would be moved back 113 inches, before the start of the wing. (330" [11rows] - 185" [739 5 rows at 37"] -32" [longer fuselage] = 113" [farther back start of coach vs. 739]

The length for Y should be 81" shorter (113-32 of extra length. This would cut 3 to 5 rows out of the E+/Y section vs. the 739 depending on the E+/Y split.
My guess would be a configuration of 22AAA-LieFlat/ 57E+/84Y, total 163.

The MAX10 in domestic config should be something like 24F/51E+/114Y = 189 giving an extra row in front and behind the wing. 24 F seats at 37 inch pitch on the domestic version is possible by reducing the front closet/galley 5 inches and leaving the lav where it is in relation to the wing vs the 739.That assumes UA puts the left side lav behind a 24 seat F class.
 
GoSharks
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:23 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:18 pm

cosyr wrote:
AA is currently the only of the 3 that has 3 classes of service on transcons. These new seats will exceed AA's J class, and approach AA's F, though reverse herringbone offer more space and privacy than regular herringbone (at the expense of seat density, so I understand why UA didn't do that.) But if UA really wanted to offer something different, they could be the first airline to offer domestic Premium Plus. Just put in 3 rows of 5 across PP seats, then half Y+ and half regular Y, it would be brilliant!


argentinevol98 wrote:

I've also thought for a while now as well that there was a market for a 2-3 W product for transcons with probably like 36" or perhaps up to 38" pitch. Slightly differentiate it from your standard 2-2 domestic F seat. JL has 738s with a 2-3 J product for shorter domestic flights as does SAA on their A319s. I think it could sell well-a lot of people that want something more that a simple Y+ but are unwilling to pay for a lie-flat J seat could definitely go for it.


UA already offers PP on the 787-10 transcon flights. It’s been what, 6 months?
 
User avatar
CALTECH
Posts: 3428
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:26 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
The MAX10 is 64 inches longer than the MAX9. I'm assuming the 64 extra inches of length are evenly placed before and after the wing.

As for the MAX10 trranscon version, if the 739MAX10 F seats are the Thompson Vantage Solo, they are 33 inch pitch. I'm glad UA looks to be moving the lav back behind F. At 33 inch pitch 11 rows of Vantage Solo seats would take up 330 inches and the lav would be moved back 113 inches, before the start of the wing. (330" [11rows] - 185" [739 5 rows at 37"] -32" [longer fuselage] = 113" [farther back start of coach vs. 739]

The length for Y should be 81" shorter (113-32 of extra length. This would cut 3 to 5 rows out of the E+/Y section vs. the 739 depending on the E+/Y split.
My guess would be a configuration of 22AAA-LieFlat/ 57E+/84Y, total 163.

The MAX10 in domestic config should be something like 24F/51E+/114Y = 189 giving an extra row in front and behind the wing. 24 F seats at 37 inch pitch on the domestic version is possible by reducing the front closet/galley 5 inches and leaving the lav where it is in relation to the wing vs the 739.That assumes UA puts the left side lav behind a 24 seat F class.


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argentinevol98
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:40 pm

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:56 pm

GoSharks wrote:
cosyr wrote:
AA is currently the only of the 3 that has 3 classes of service on transcons. These new seats will exceed AA's J class, and approach AA's F, though reverse herringbone offer more space and privacy than regular herringbone (at the expense of seat density, so I understand why UA didn't do that.) But if UA really wanted to offer something different, they could be the first airline to offer domestic Premium Plus. Just put in 3 rows of 5 across PP seats, then half Y+ and half regular Y, it would be brilliant!


argentinevol98 wrote:

I've also thought for a while now as well that there was a market for a 2-3 W product for transcons with probably like 36" or perhaps up to 38" pitch. Slightly differentiate it from your standard 2-2 domestic F seat. JL has 738s with a 2-3 J product for shorter domestic flights as does SAA on their A319s. I think it could sell well-a lot of people that want something more that a simple Y+ but are unwilling to pay for a lie-flat J seat could definitely go for it.


UA already offers PP on the 787-10 transcon flights. It’s been what, 6 months?


Yeah I know about the 78Js. I was mainly referring to a product on a dedicated narrowbody fleet. No one is offering that right now and it seems, to me at least, that there might be room for something like that, though I admit that I am no market expert.
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
VC10er
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:22 pm

In terms of weight distribution: will 22 AAA First seats with 22 people be close (or roughly close) to the same weight if it was E+/E ? (if the floor area for either F or E was equal?)

I just wonder if the front half of the 737-10 with 22 AAA seats will be lighter in the front or if this new layout vs the back?

I thought this on the High J 767-300 also.

Would the fulcrum change on the AC and would it effect how the pilot manages to fly her? Or do the heavier seats in F offset the smaller group of human bodies, etc?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5452
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Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:59 pm

VC10er wrote:
jayunited wrote:
alasizon wrote:

SFO-RDU probably has the chops but I agree that some of the markets are less likely. I just don't see a fifty plane fleet. I think UA is making smart moves domestically but I'm not sure they all add up to support 50 aircraft (remember, the HD 772s aren't going anywhere as of yet so they will still do some of the hub-hub transcon lifting).


I never stated or implied that the HD 772 were going anywhere. Of course the HD 772s are staying on the hub to hub routes the MAX10 would replace the 752s. A MAX 10 can not replace a 366 seat 77A never said they would.

On many of the coast to coast routes that I mentioned especially out of SFO and EWR demand outstrips supply for first class seats. If we take the upgrade list and jettison the silver, gold, and platinum members who don't have a chance in hell of getting an upgrade and just leave the 1K's and G.S. passengers demand for premium seating just from those two groups outstrips supply on many of the coast to coast routes I mentioned. The only time we really don't see G.S. passengers on the upgrade list is when the flight is operated by either a 78X with 44 lie flat seats or a 77W with 60 lie flat seats. But on flights operated on the HD 77A, or 757-200 both versions( 28 seats or 16 seats) demand out strips supply.

United has 2 really great hubs in 2 strong business locations SFO and EWR the demand for 22 lie flat seats is there for multiple downline locations on the opposite coast. Perhaps my list was a bit more generous than others but I seriously doubt you will see these aircraft at any interior hub location I believe these aircraft will be use greatly from our hubs at SFO and EWR and to a lessor extent from our hubs at LAX and IAD to hubs and line stations on the opposite coast. Also to try and catch B6 you might even see UA deploy a few frames on our EWR-Florida routes. If you really want to know what UA is planning to do with the MAX10 just take a look at what B6 is doing with their MINT product. They came up with the original blue print and while I have no idea what UA's final plans look like I do know UA is determined to try and catch up to MINT with lie flat seating on quite a few of our coast to coast flights.


I personally think that with 50 737-10’s, United could become the US airline with the most domestic lie flat AAA aircraft of the majors. Aside from EWR/LAX-SFO, I can envision more “worth the up-charge” for SFO/LAX to MIA/FLL, EWR/LGA to Denver, or even Las Vegas!
As southern Florida is like NYC’s 6th borough (and NJ) EWR to FLL/MIA would be AMAZING! (today there is at least 1 752 to MIA)
But these 737-10s should mostly be used for long haul Polaris Pax arriving at a big hub such as IAH, IAD, SFO, & ORD who then (after being re-screened, etc) then forward onto a 3+ hour flight...the last 3 hours just made you trip feel very inconsistent!
When I go to GIG through IAH, gone will be the days of a 738 to EWR. Today its a 752 or 763 to EWR at just the right time. So from end to end it's a very consistent comfortable experience even if it's a true Polaris Long Haul, then connecting to a Diamond seat. It makes a HUGE difference!
Even EWR/LAG to ORD. Sometimes I AM THE WALKING DEAD after a day long intense meeting in Chicago, then dinner- race to ORD and get a lie flat: GLORIOUS!!!
Bring ‘em on, ALL 50 of the 737-10!


I think what you are talking about here is unrealistic. B6 with mint has far lower cost than UA and even they don't think it's justifiable to put mint on JFK-DEN or JFK-FLL/PBI.

Keep in mind the existing mint schedule uses at least 35 aircraft for about 45 R/T. And B6 utilizes their fleet at a rate that's much higher than legacy airlines. So 50 737-10 might only enable UA to do about 50 R/T a day.

That could be
16 EWR-SFO R/T
12 EWR-LAX
7 BOS-SFO
4 EWR-SAN
3 EWR-LAS
3 EWR-SEA
4 IAD-SFO
3 IAD-LAX

This will already be 50 R/T
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:33 pm

tphuang wrote:
VC10er wrote:
jayunited wrote:

I never stated or implied that the HD 772 were going anywhere. Of course the HD 772s are staying on the hub to hub routes the MAX10 would replace the 752s. A MAX 10 can not replace a 366 seat 77A never said they would.

On many of the coast to coast routes that I mentioned especially out of SFO and EWR demand outstrips supply for first class seats. If we take the upgrade list and jettison the silver, gold, and platinum members who don't have a chance in hell of getting an upgrade and just leave the 1K's and G.S. passengers demand for premium seating just from those two groups outstrips supply on many of the coast to coast routes I mentioned. The only time we really don't see G.S. passengers on the upgrade list is when the flight is operated by either a 78X with 44 lie flat seats or a 77W with 60 lie flat seats. But on flights operated on the HD 77A, or 757-200 both versions( 28 seats or 16 seats) demand out strips supply.

United has 2 really great hubs in 2 strong business locations SFO and EWR the demand for 22 lie flat seats is there for multiple downline locations on the opposite coast. Perhaps my list was a bit more generous than others but I seriously doubt you will see these aircraft at any interior hub location I believe these aircraft will be use greatly from our hubs at SFO and EWR and to a lessor extent from our hubs at LAX and IAD to hubs and line stations on the opposite coast. Also to try and catch B6 you might even see UA deploy a few frames on our EWR-Florida routes. If you really want to know what UA is planning to do with the MAX10 just take a look at what B6 is doing with their MINT product. They came up with the original blue print and while I have no idea what UA's final plans look like I do know UA is determined to try and catch up to MINT with lie flat seating on quite a few of our coast to coast flights.


I personally think that with 50 737-10’s, United could become the US airline with the most domestic lie flat AAA aircraft of the majors. Aside from EWR/LAX-SFO, I can envision more “worth the up-charge” for SFO/LAX to MIA/FLL, EWR/LGA to Denver, or even Las Vegas!
As southern Florida is like NYC’s 6th borough (and NJ) EWR to FLL/MIA would be AMAZING! (today there is at least 1 752 to MIA)
But these 737-10s should mostly be used for long haul Polaris Pax arriving at a big hub such as IAH, IAD, SFO, & ORD who then (after being re-screened, etc) then forward onto a 3+ hour flight...the last 3 hours just made you trip feel very inconsistent!
When I go to GIG through IAH, gone will be the days of a 738 to EWR. Today its a 752 or 763 to EWR at just the right time. So from end to end it's a very consistent comfortable experience even if it's a true Polaris Long Haul, then connecting to a Diamond seat. It makes a HUGE difference!
Even EWR/LAG to ORD. Sometimes I AM THE WALKING DEAD after a day long intense meeting in Chicago, then dinner- race to ORD and get a lie flat: GLORIOUS!!!
Bring ‘em on, ALL 50 of the 737-10!


I think what you are talking about here is unrealistic. B6 with mint has far lower cost than UA and even they don't think it's justifiable to put mint on JFK-DEN or JFK-FLL/PBI.

Keep in mind the existing mint schedule uses at least 35 aircraft for about 45 R/T. And B6 utilizes their fleet at a rate that's much higher than legacy airlines. So 50 737-10 might only enable UA to do about 50 R/T a day.

That could be
16 EWR-SFO R/T
12 EWR-LAX
7 BOS-SFO
4 EWR-SAN
3 EWR-LAS
3 EWR-SEA
4 IAD-SFO
3 IAD-LAX

This will already be 50 R/T


Probably need to add some IAH > S. America Routes + IAH>SEA (5+ hrs).
 
alasizon
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:48 pm

tphuang wrote:
VC10er wrote:
jayunited wrote:

I never stated or implied that the HD 772 were going anywhere. Of course the HD 772s are staying on the hub to hub routes the MAX10 would replace the 752s. A MAX 10 can not replace a 366 seat 77A never said they would.

On many of the coast to coast routes that I mentioned especially out of SFO and EWR demand outstrips supply for first class seats. If we take the upgrade list and jettison the silver, gold, and platinum members who don't have a chance in hell of getting an upgrade and just leave the 1K's and G.S. passengers demand for premium seating just from those two groups outstrips supply on many of the coast to coast routes I mentioned. The only time we really don't see G.S. passengers on the upgrade list is when the flight is operated by either a 78X with 44 lie flat seats or a 77W with 60 lie flat seats. But on flights operated on the HD 77A, or 757-200 both versions( 28 seats or 16 seats) demand out strips supply.

United has 2 really great hubs in 2 strong business locations SFO and EWR the demand for 22 lie flat seats is there for multiple downline locations on the opposite coast. Perhaps my list was a bit more generous than others but I seriously doubt you will see these aircraft at any interior hub location I believe these aircraft will be use greatly from our hubs at SFO and EWR and to a lessor extent from our hubs at LAX and IAD to hubs and line stations on the opposite coast. Also to try and catch B6 you might even see UA deploy a few frames on our EWR-Florida routes. If you really want to know what UA is planning to do with the MAX10 just take a look at what B6 is doing with their MINT product. They came up with the original blue print and while I have no idea what UA's final plans look like I do know UA is determined to try and catch up to MINT with lie flat seating on quite a few of our coast to coast flights.


I personally think that with 50 737-10’s, United could become the US airline with the most domestic lie flat AAA aircraft of the majors. Aside from EWR/LAX-SFO, I can envision more “worth the up-charge” for SFO/LAX to MIA/FLL, EWR/LGA to Denver, or even Las Vegas!
As southern Florida is like NYC’s 6th borough (and NJ) EWR to FLL/MIA would be AMAZING! (today there is at least 1 752 to MIA)
But these 737-10s should mostly be used for long haul Polaris Pax arriving at a big hub such as IAH, IAD, SFO, & ORD who then (after being re-screened, etc) then forward onto a 3+ hour flight...the last 3 hours just made you trip feel very inconsistent!
When I go to GIG through IAH, gone will be the days of a 738 to EWR. Today its a 752 or 763 to EWR at just the right time. So from end to end it's a very consistent comfortable experience even if it's a true Polaris Long Haul, then connecting to a Diamond seat. It makes a HUGE difference!
Even EWR/LAG to ORD. Sometimes I AM THE WALKING DEAD after a day long intense meeting in Chicago, then dinner- race to ORD and get a lie flat: GLORIOUS!!!
Bring ‘em on, ALL 50 of the 737-10!


I think what you are talking about here is unrealistic. B6 with mint has far lower cost than UA and even they don't think it's justifiable to put mint on JFK-DEN or JFK-FLL/PBI.

Keep in mind the existing mint schedule uses at least 35 aircraft for about 45 R/T. And B6 utilizes their fleet at a rate that's much higher than legacy airlines. So 50 737-10 might only enable UA to do about 50 R/T a day.

That could be
16 EWR-SFO R/T
12 EWR-LAX
7 BOS-SFO
4 EWR-SAN
3 EWR-LAS
3 EWR-SEA
4 IAD-SFO
3 IAD-LAX

This will already be 50 R/T


EWR-SFO isn't going to be 16x daily 737-10 though (nor would EWR-LAX be 12x daily) as that would detract from the existing HD 772 routes.

Realistically, you're looking at 8-10 EWR-SFO and 6-7 EWR-LAX (assuming the HD 772 continues to run at the same frequencies and the 787s no longer are doing hub to hub which is unlikely).

BOS-SFO is currently 6x daily so 7x isn't out of the realm of possibility but that is a large increase in J seats.

I don't see EWR-LAS or EWR-SEA going all 737-10 either (maybe 1x daily each).

That leaves you with:
10x EWR-SFO
7x EWR-LAX
6x BOS-SFO
4x EWR-SAN
3x IAD-SFO
2x IAD-LAX
1x EWR-LAS
1x EWR-SEA
1x SFO-RDU (my personal opinion on a route it'll be used on)

That is roughly ~450 block hours per day. Assuming an average utilization of 16 hours per day (well within reason given transcon allows for high utilization when there are hubs on both ends); that is right around 28.5 frames.

I'm also a little doubtful on all of the transcon hub to hub being lie-flat as UA may need to rotate some 738/739s between bases.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
codc10
Posts: 2908
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:02 pm

I would put money on a premium economy product installed in the forthcoming 737-MAX10. Same for the A321XLR.

It would allow an AAA J product plus PE, same as the widebodies, on all EWR-LAX/SFO-BOS flights, plus other strategic markets.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1304
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:23 pm

alasizon wrote:
tphuang wrote:
VC10er wrote:

I personally think that with 50 737-10’s, United could become the US airline with the most domestic lie flat AAA aircraft of the majors. Aside from EWR/LAX-SFO, I can envision more “worth the up-charge” for SFO/LAX to MIA/FLL, EWR/LGA to Denver, or even Las Vegas!
As southern Florida is like NYC’s 6th borough (and NJ) EWR to FLL/MIA would be AMAZING! (today there is at least 1 752 to MIA)
But these 737-10s should mostly be used for long haul Polaris Pax arriving at a big hub such as IAH, IAD, SFO, & ORD who then (after being re-screened, etc) then forward onto a 3+ hour flight...the last 3 hours just made you trip feel very inconsistent!
When I go to GIG through IAH, gone will be the days of a 738 to EWR. Today its a 752 or 763 to EWR at just the right time. So from end to end it's a very consistent comfortable experience even if it's a true Polaris Long Haul, then connecting to a Diamond seat. It makes a HUGE difference!
Even EWR/LAG to ORD. Sometimes I AM THE WALKING DEAD after a day long intense meeting in Chicago, then dinner- race to ORD and get a lie flat: GLORIOUS!!!
Bring ‘em on, ALL 50 of the 737-10!


I think what you are talking about here is unrealistic. B6 with mint has far lower cost than UA and even they don't think it's justifiable to put mint on JFK-DEN or JFK-FLL/PBI.

Keep in mind the existing mint schedule uses at least 35 aircraft for about 45 R/T. And B6 utilizes their fleet at a rate that's much higher than legacy airlines. So 50 737-10 might only enable UA to do about 50 R/T a day.

That could be
16 EWR-SFO R/T
12 EWR-LAX
7 BOS-SFO
4 EWR-SAN
3 EWR-LAS
3 EWR-SEA
4 IAD-SFO
3 IAD-LAX

This will already be 50 R/T


EWR-SFO isn't going to be 16x daily 737-10 though (nor would EWR-LAX be 12x daily) as that would detract from the existing HD 772 routes.

Realistically, you're looking at 8-10 EWR-SFO and 6-7 EWR-LAX (assuming the HD 772 continues to run at the same frequencies and the 787s no longer are doing hub to hub which is unlikely).

BOS-SFO is currently 6x daily so 7x isn't out of the realm of possibility but that is a large increase in J seats.

I don't see EWR-LAS or EWR-SEA going all 737-10 either (maybe 1x daily each).

That leaves you with:
10x EWR-SFO
7x EWR-LAX
6x BOS-SFO
4x EWR-SAN
3x IAD-SFO
2x IAD-LAX
1x EWR-LAS
1x EWR-SEA
1x SFO-RDU (my personal opinion on a route it'll be used on)

That is roughly ~450 block hours per day. Assuming an average utilization of 16 hours per day (well within reason given transcon allows for high utilization when there are hubs on both ends); that is right around 28.5 frames.

I'm also a little doubtful on all of the transcon hub to hub being lie-flat as UA may need to rotate some 738/739s between bases.


It seems you don’t really have the full picture of the EWR - LAX/SFO market. If the routes were operated exclusively by a 737-10 at frequencies ranging between 7-10x a day, a lot of capacity would be lost. Right now SFO is scheduled to operated 15x daily and 12x for LAX. Yet, the Max is way smaller than the wide bodies and 757s that frequent the route (Absolutely no 737s). So even if we wanted to throw in a few 772s or 78Xs we’re still at a loss of capacity. An ideal combo would be,

SFO
12x 737-10
3x 772
2x 787-10

LAX
10x 737-10
2x 772
2x 78X
 
alasizon
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:32 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
alasizon wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I think what you are talking about here is unrealistic. B6 with mint has far lower cost than UA and even they don't think it's justifiable to put mint on JFK-DEN or JFK-FLL/PBI.

Keep in mind the existing mint schedule uses at least 35 aircraft for about 45 R/T. And B6 utilizes their fleet at a rate that's much higher than legacy airlines. So 50 737-10 might only enable UA to do about 50 R/T a day.

That could be
16 EWR-SFO R/T
12 EWR-LAX
7 BOS-SFO
4 EWR-SAN
3 EWR-LAS
3 EWR-SEA
4 IAD-SFO
3 IAD-LAX

This will already be 50 R/T


EWR-SFO isn't going to be 16x daily 737-10 though (nor would EWR-LAX be 12x daily) as that would detract from the existing HD 772 routes.

Realistically, you're looking at 8-10 EWR-SFO and 6-7 EWR-LAX (assuming the HD 772 continues to run at the same frequencies and the 787s no longer are doing hub to hub which is unlikely).

BOS-SFO is currently 6x daily so 7x isn't out of the realm of possibility but that is a large increase in J seats.

I don't see EWR-LAS or EWR-SEA going all 737-10 either (maybe 1x daily each).

That leaves you with:
10x EWR-SFO
7x EWR-LAX
6x BOS-SFO
4x EWR-SAN
3x IAD-SFO
2x IAD-LAX
1x EWR-LAS
1x EWR-SEA
1x SFO-RDU (my personal opinion on a route it'll be used on)

That is roughly ~450 block hours per day. Assuming an average utilization of 16 hours per day (well within reason given transcon allows for high utilization when there are hubs on both ends); that is right around 28.5 frames.

I'm also a little doubtful on all of the transcon hub to hub being lie-flat as UA may need to rotate some 738/739s between bases.


It seems you don’t really have the full picture of the EWR - LAX/SFO market. If the routes were operated exclusively by a 737-10 at frequencies ranging between 7-10x a day, a lot of capacity would be lost. Right now SFO is scheduled to operated 15x daily and 12x for LAX. Yet, the Max is way smaller than the wide bodies and 757s that frequent the route (Absolutely no 737s). So even if we wanted to throw in a few 772s or 78Xs we’re still at a loss of capacity. An ideal combo would be,

SFO
12x 737-10
3x 772
2x 787-10

LAX
10x 737-10
2x 772
2x 78X


I was referring to just the MAXes, I agree that the widebodies will still continue to fly the routes (which is the opposite of what tphuang was implying with his numbers)
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5087
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:58 pm

codc10 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
codc10 wrote:

Sad but true. The Battleship livery also represents a particularly turbulent period for United (ESOP, SFH, 9/11, Ch. 11), inclusive of a time where thousands of current employees made tremendous concessions and simultaneously lost pensions, share value, etc.

The distant retro-liveries create more touchy-feely nostalgia, combined with the fact that very few present employees (probably none in the case of the CO retrojet) were actually around for those respective eras.

United was by far the best airline in the 1990s, IMO, and immensely enjoyable as a customer. That was a time when the airline grew, especially abroad, took on many modern aircraft like the 744, 319/320, and 777. The product back then was really good and they were truly a global airline and innovative one. Things like e-tickets, easy checkin, founding Star Alliance, launching the 777, new DEN, and Shuttle (which was enormously successful prior to 9/11). Regardless of how 9/11 hurt UA and helped steer them to a Ch11, I’ve never once talked to a UA employee in my travels that didn’t love United. Certain CEOs? Maybe. But they loved UA.

I didn’t like the Battleship when it came out and I would never choose it over the Rainbow livery, but at this point I’d give a kidney to see even a shred of UA.


I am not beholden to liveries and symbolism, but you’re missing a major point if you simply gloss over the long-term structural issues that led to United’s bankruptcy... it wasn’t just 9/11.

United’s employees sacrificed tremendous promised value in the form of the failed ESOP, post-9/11 concessions and canceled pensions that were directly tied to management incompetence.

United management rode the 90s boom times HARD... and the fall was indicative of it. Sadly it was born by the rank-and-file, not the people who sold them down the river.

you are so right! Richard Ferris wanted to use United as some piggy bank he could shake to but Hilton Hotels, the Westin Hotels ,Macadamia Nots, Hertz, Then demanded that the Airline produce 25 Cents on the Dollar in profits or he would do to US what Canteen Corp did to TWA, And? He was stupid enough to tell us to our Faces an an afternoon meeting. He didn't last the Week! ALPA initiated a buyout that same week and Allegis, Ferris, Hartigan and the other Cronies who were going to set up the Corporate Jet division Avolar were all GONE the following month!!
 
UAinAUS
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:11 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:26 am

UAX Update:

CR5:
N615QX has been reregistered as N520GJ, exited MLB with interior mod and now at AMA for EvoBlu livery
N642CA exited AMA in EvoBlu livery, now at MLB for interior mod
N612QX (2002 build) ferried STL prior to CR5 mods, will become N507GJ
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3233
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:09 am

Thanks CALTECH on the MAX10. The extra 8 inches up front would allow 24F or 22 LieFlat and the lavs would be about 8 inches more forward than I surmised. Y seats should be the same as starting Y more toward the front makes up for the reduction in added length behind the wing.
 
777-500er
Posts: 501
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:43 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:15 am

Has anyone published international route adjustments for April 2020?
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 1263
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:30 am

argentinevol98 wrote:
GoSharks wrote:
cosyr wrote:
But if UA really wanted to offer something different, they could be the first airline to offer domestic Premium Plus. Just put in 3 rows of 5 across PP seats, then half Y+ and half regular Y, it would be brilliant!

argentinevol98 wrote:
I've also thought for a while now as well that there was a market for a 2-3 W product for transcons with probably like 36" or perhaps up to 38" pitch.
UA already offers PP on the 787-10 transcon flights. It’s been what, 6 months?
I was mainly referring to a product on a dedicated narrowbody fleet. No one is offering that right now and it seems, to me at least, that there might be room for something like that, though I admit that I am no market expert.

When I compare the united.com domestic first and Premium Plus product descriptions side by side, they read to me to be nearly identical. (Premium Plus gets you discounted Club access, First gets you complementary Club access.)

I don't know if that's an argument for or against Premium Plus on a 737-10.

On the one hand, the 787-10s on premium transcons call the lie-flat cabin "business" and it'd be weird to market the big upright seats cabin as "first." Business-first-Economy Plus-economy.

On the other hand, HD 777s and 757-200s doing domestic runs call their lie-flat cabins "first."

If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "business," calling an upright big seats cabin "premium economy" would make sense. If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "first," calling an upright big seats cabin "business" might be clearer.

Maybe that's a distinction without a difference, though.

Tangentially related, I find it interesting that Delta on their KEF and PDL services flies domestic 757s and calls the cabin that would be "first" domestically "premium economy" in those markets. The products have feature parity and it lets Delta keep marketing all of their Atlantic services as "100% lie-flat in business."
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 1263
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:31 am

777-500er wrote:
Has anyone published international route adjustments for April 2020?

They're in the OAG thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1442531
 
codc10
Posts: 2908
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:18 am

adamblang wrote:
argentinevol98 wrote:
GoSharks wrote:
UA already offers PP on the 787-10 transcon flights. It’s been what, 6 months?
I was mainly referring to a product on a dedicated narrowbody fleet. No one is offering that right now and it seems, to me at least, that there might be room for something like that, though I admit that I am no market expert.

When I compare the united.com domestic first and Premium Plus product descriptions side by side, they read to me to be nearly identical. (Premium Plus gets you discounted Club access, First gets you complementary Club access.)

I don't know if that's an argument for or against Premium Plus on a 737-10.

On the one hand, the 787-10s on premium transcons call the lie-flat cabin "business" and it'd be weird to market the big upright seats cabin as "first." Business-first-Economy Plus-economy.

On the other hand, HD 777s and 757-200s doing domestic runs call their lie-flat cabins "first."

If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "business," calling an upright big seats cabin "premium economy" would make sense. If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "first," calling an upright big seats cabin "business" might be clearer.

Maybe that's a distinction without a difference, though.

Tangentially related, I find it interesting that Delta on their KEF and PDL services flies domestic 757s and calls the cabin that would be "first" domestically "premium economy" in those markets. The products have feature parity and it lets Delta keep marketing all of their Atlantic services as "100% lie-flat in business."


UA already sells PE in the domestic market at a differential premium fare on 787 flights EWR-LAX/SFO, between Y fares and the premium (J) cabin. No reason to think they’d do anything differently in other markets if they indeed put a PE cabin in a premium 737-10 and deploy it in other markets. For one-off/irregular service/equipment swaps, the PE cabin is sold as E+.

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