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Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:00 pm

codc10 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
codc10 wrote:

That’s awfully conclusory... I guess that settles the matter!


So you know if businesses and companies that are considering leaving the capital of the world due to one little hiccup that ripped throughout the world?


That is about the most nonsensical characterization of this crisis I have read. Thanks for the laugh.

As far as companies considering changing the way they do business in New York City because of the pandemic? Especially in financial services, law and other professional businesses where, historically, large concentrations of staff are brought in to one place at a time, despite being able to substantially replicate the same functions at home or elsewhere? It happened after 9/11, and I can assure you, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this same process is happening again. I'm involved in it.

To bring this back to the airline industry, as an example to answer your question, watch JetBlue (though that is a longer-term trend and primarily due to cost savings).


There is a pretty big difference you are forgetting about. The whole world was affected by Covid-19 but during the 9/11 attacks NYC was singled out. If you are saying people and companies will move out of high risk places than Italy, Germany, France, Spain, China, UK, and the USA are all doomed.
 
United1
Posts: 4155
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:13 pm

x1234 wrote:
The majority of cargo demand out of China is HKG & PVG due to the PPE need. I think UA still serves PVG & HKG via NRT.


Yes with cargo only flights. The flights that LAXint and others have listed are passenger service.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
mcg
Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:54 pm

horsepowerchef wrote:
jayunited wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
Do we know if they are only loading cargo into the cargo pits or are they loading cargo into seats as we've seen some other carriers doing? Same question for the AA flights, is this something allowed by the FAA or only in some foreign countries? Is DL doing any cargo-only flights?



I don't see UA going as far as removing seats from aircraft to carry cargo. An empty passenger compartment on a 77W flying to Europe from ORD, IAH, or EWR means an airline could potentially carry around 100,000 pounds perhaps even 110,000 pounds of cargo in the belly depending on the fuel requirements. Also keep in mind UA because we are only using a small portion of our fleet as cargo charters we need to turn these aircraft in Europe fairly quickly. Loading individual boxes in the passengers cabin and having employees walk these pieces up and down stairs slows down the turn around time and there is the potential for employees to get injured since they wouldn't be able to hold on to the handrails while entering and exiting the cabin of a 77W or 789.


yea, thats completely out of the question...loading +50,000lbs of freight by hand would take ages and probably incur injuries...let alone, Im pretty sure the plane would need to have its cabin floor reinforced...


FWIW here's OS loading cargo into the seats of a 777:

https://twitter.com/_austrian/status/12 ... 3772539904
 
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yeogeo
Posts: 1531
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:22 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Updated May international schedule revealed. Pretty much everything scheduled to resume in May was pushed back to June. Also 21 routes will not operate at all for S20...


If possible could you provide a list of the routes that won’t operate?


This was published today (4/18):
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20200418
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1043
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:06 pm

yeogeo wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Updated May international schedule revealed. Pretty much everything scheduled to resume in May was pushed back to June. Also 21 routes will not operate at all for S20...


If possible could you provide a list of the routes that won’t operate?


This was published today (4/18):
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-20200418


Thank you.
 
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intotheair
Posts: 1881
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:56 am

Very interesting. As I predicted, SFO-CDG won't fly this summer (resumes 24 Oct). I'm surprised to see SFO-AMS/DUB/ZRH not only come back, but also in time for part of the summer. I guess I could have booked that SFO-ZRH flight I was thinking about after all.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
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AVENSAB727
Posts: 1386
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:01 am

IAH-AMS won’t restart till 24 October, this surprised me. FRA/MUC/LHR start back up in June.
Always look on the bright side of Life!
 
NoNonsense
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:42 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:22 am

Most of this is not happening they just have not pulled down beyond June yet. Not sure why the guy on Routes.net keeps doing that!
 
sldispatcher
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:55 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:24 am

The biggest issue I’m facing is for May travel, UAL has so scaled back the hub-hub frequency that many of the destinations have become 3 stoppers for me and an all day journey. Just a couple of filler E175 or E145’s from IAH to DEN would help bunches

Once those first few states give the greenlight this week, I will be looking forward to seeing those seats fill up
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24514
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:03 am

Many of the longhaul flights showing June 4 resumption won't happen. They just have not worked the schedule that far and simply pushed schedules from early May to early June instead.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 2231
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:04 am

sldispatcher wrote:
The biggest issue I’m facing is for May travel, UAL has so scaled back the hub-hub frequency that many of the destinations have become 3 stoppers for me and an all day journey. Just a couple of filler E175 or E145’s from IAH to DEN would help bunches

Once those first few states give the greenlight this week, I will be looking forward to seeing those seats fill up


UA is not anticipating demand to return anytime soon based on the schedules. Folks will be skittish for a while stuck in a tube wondering if there is a virus carrier onboard.

Confidence should return once there is a good testing program in-place and people see sustained drops in new infections.
 
United1
Posts: 4155
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:08 am

intotheair wrote:
Very interesting. As I predicted, SFO-CDG won't fly this summer (resumes 24 Oct). I'm surprised to see SFO-AMS/DUB/ZRH not only come back, but also in time for part of the summer. I guess I could have booked that SFO-ZRH flight I was thinking about after all.


As much as I would like SFO-AMS (and the rest) to return this year I would not count on that. UA has been slowly working at updating the schedules and more than likely they just haven't removed those flights from the schedule yet. They are basically rebuilding the schedule day by day from the bottom up....needless to say that takes a while.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24514
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:08 am

Network suspension summary list I recently saw.
Obviously some of this is fictitious and will remain suspended for longer.


ATLANTIC

Amsterdam (AMS)
IAH: March 17 – October, 2020
ORD: March 20 – May 19, 2020
IAD: Suspended through October 2020
EWR: March 28 - May 3, 2020,
Service operates: May 4 - June 3, 2020
SFO: March 28 – October, 2020

Athens (ATH)
EWR: April 10 - June 30, 2020

Barcelona (BCN)
EWR: March 20 – June 3, 2020
IAD: Suspended for full summer season May - October, 2020

Berlin (TXL)
EWR: March 20 – June 3, 2020

Brussels (BRU)
ORD/IAD: March 20 – June 3, 2020
EWR: March 28 - June 3, 2020

Delhi (DEL)
SFO, EWR: March 23 – June 3, 2020

Dublin (DUB)
IAD: March 19 – October 2020
EWR: March 28 – June 3, 2020
ORD: March 28 – October 2020
SFO: April 10 - June 30, 2020

Edinburgh (EDI)
EWR: March 20 – June 3, 2020
IAD: April 10 - June 30, 2020
ORD: April 10 - June 30, 2020

Frankfurt (FRA)
DEN: March 17 - June 3, 2020
IAD: Suspended through May 3, 2020
Service operates May 4 - June 3, 2020
IAH: March 17 – June 3, 2020
ORD: March 20 – June 3, 2020
SFO: March 28 - June 3, 2020

Geneva (GVA)
IAD: March 17 – June 3, 2020
EWR: March 20 – June 3, 2020

Glasgow (GLA)
EWR: April 15, 2020 - October 2020

Lisbon (LIS)
EWR: March 22 – June 3, 2020
IAD: March 28 – June 30, 2020

London (LHR)
DEN, IAH: March 17 – June 3, 2020
ORD: March 20 - May 3, 2020
Service operates May 4 - June 3, 2020
LAX: March 20 – October 2020
SFO: March 28 - June 3, 2020

Madrid (MAD)
EWR: March 20 – June 3, 2020
IAD: Suspended for full summer season May -October, 2020

Manchester (MAN)
EWR: March 20 – October 2020

Milan (MXP)
EWR: March 17 – June 3, 2020

Mumbai (BOM)
EWR: Suspended through June 3, 2020

Munich (MUC)
IAH: March 17 – June 3, 2020
ORD, IAD: March 20 – June 3, 2020
SFO: March 23 - June 3, 2020
EWR: March 28 - June 3, 2020

Naples (NAP)
EWR: April 10 - June 30, 2020

Nice (NCE)
EWR: May 2 – October 2020

Paris (CDG)
EWR, IAD: March 17 - June 3, 2020
ORD, SFO: March 17 – October 2020

Palermo (PMO)
EWR: Suspended for full summer season May - October, 2020

Prague (PRG)
EWR: Suspended for full summer season May - October, 2020

Porto (OPO)
EWR: March 28 – June 30, 2020

Reykjavik (KEF)
EWR: Suspended for full summer season May - October, 2020

Rome (FCO)
EWR: March 17 – June 3, 2020
IAD: Suspended for full summer season May - October, 2020
ORD: Suspended for full summer season May - October, 2020

Shannon (SNN)
EWR: March 28 – October 2020

Stockholm (ARN)
EWR: Suspended for full summer season May - October, 2020

Tel Aviv (TLV)
SFO: March 22 – June 3, 2020
IAD: March 23 – October, 2020

Venice (VCE)
EWR: May 2 – June 30, 2020

Zurich (ZRH)
IAD: March 20 – June 3, 2020
EWR: March 22 – June 3, 2020
SFO: May 2 – June 30, 2020
ORD: Suspended for full summer season May - October, 2020

PACIFIC

Auckland (AKL)
SFO: March 22 - June 3, 2020

Beijing (PEK)
ORD, EWR, SFO: February 6 - June 3, 2020
IAD: February 6 - October, 2020

Chengdu (CTU)
SFO: February 6 - June 3, 2020

Fukuoka (FUK)
GUM: March 22 - June 3, 2020

Hong Kong (HKG)
EWR, SFO: February 8 - June 3, 2020

Melbourne (MEL)
LAX, SFO: March 22 - June 3, 2020

Manila (MNL)
GUM: March 22 - May 19, 2020

Nagoya (NGO)
GUM: March 29 - May 19, 2020

Osaka (KIX)
GUM: March 30 - June 3, 2020

Palau (ROR) - Manila (MNL)
GUM: March 22 - June 3, 2020

Pape'ete (PPT)
SFO: March 28 - June 3, 2020

Seoul (ICN)
SFO: Suspended through June 3, 2020

Shanghai (PVG)
ORD, EWR, LAX, SFO: February 6 - June 3, 2020

Singapore (SIN)
SFO: Suspended through June 3, 2020

Sydney (SYD)
IAH, LAX: March 22 - June 3, 2020

Taipei (TPE)
SFO: March 18 - May 19, 2020

Tokyo-Haneda (HND)
ORD, EWR, LAX, IAD: March 28 - June 3, 2020

Tokyo-Narita (NRT)
IAH, LAX: February 6 - June 3, 2020
HNL: March 28 - June 3, 2020
DEN: April 1 - June 3, 2020
GUM: April 10 - June 3, 2020

LATIN

Acapulco (ACA)
IAH: March 29 - May 30, 2020

Aguadilla (BQN)
EWR: March 29 – May 3, 2020
Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Aguascalientes (AGU)
IAH: March 29 – June 3, 2020

Antigua (ANU)
EWR: April 11 - May 30, 2020

Aruba (AUA)
EWR, IAD, IAH, ORD: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 30, 2020
EWR, IAH: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Belize (BZE)
ORD: March 29 - June 3, 2020
EWR: March 29 – June 3, 2020
Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020
IAH: April 1 - May 19, 2020
Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Bermuda (BDA)
EWR: Suspended through October 2020

Bogota (BOG)
EWR: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - June 3, 2020
IAH: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 3, 2020
Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Bonaire (BON)
IAH: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 31, 2020
EWR: Suspended through 5/30

Buenos Aires (EZE)
IAH: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - June 4, 2020
Service operates 3x/weekly-May 4 - May 19, 2020

Cancun (CUN)
DEN, IAD, LAX, EWR, ORD: March 29 – June 3, 2020
IAH: April 15 - May 3, 2020
Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Chihuahua (CUU)
IAH: March 29 – June 4, 2020

Cozumel (CZM)
IAH, DEN: March 29 – June 3, 2020
ORD: March 29 - May 19, 2020

Grand Cayman (GCM)
EWR, IAD, IAH, ORD: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 30, 2020

Guadalajara (GDL)
IAH: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Guatemala City (GUA)
EWR: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - June 3, 2020
IAD: Suspended through May 19, 2020
IAH: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 3, 2020
Service operates: May 4 - May 19, 2020

Havana (HAV)
EWR, IAH: March 29 – June 3, 2020

Leon/del Bajio (BJX)
IAH: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Liberia (LIR)
EWR, ORD, DEN: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 30, 2020
IAH: Suspended through June 4, 2020

Lima (LIM)
EWR, IAH: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 19, 2020

Managua (MGA)
IAH: March 29 – June 4, 2020

Manzanillo (ZLO)
IAH: March 29 – May 19, 2020

Mazatlan (MZT)
IAH: April 11 - May 19, 2020

Merida (MID)
IAH: March 29 – June 4, 2020

Mexico City (MEX)
EWR, IAD, ORD: March 29 – June 3, 2020
IAD, SFO: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Montego Bay (MBJ)
IAD, ORD: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 30, 2020
EWR, IAH: Service operates May 4 – May 19, 2020

Monterrey (MTY)
ORD: March 29 – June 3, 2020
IAH: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Morelia (MLM)
IAH: March 29 – June 3, 2020

Nassau (NAS)
ORD, IAD: March 29 – June 3, 2020
DEN: March 29 - May 30, 2020
IAH: March 29 - May 19, 2020
EWR: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Oaxaca (OAX)
IAH: March 29 – May 30, 2020

Panama City (PTY)
EWR & IAH: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Port of Spain (POS)
EWR, IAH: March 29 – June 3, 2020

Providenciales (PLS)
ORD, IAD, IAH: March 29 – May 30, 2020
EWR: April 1 - June 3, 2020

Puebla (PBC)
IAH: March 29 – June 3, 2020

Puerto Plata (POP)
EWR: March 29 – June 3, 2020

Puerto Vallarta (PVR)
DEN, EWR, LAX, ORD: Suspended through May 30, 2020
SFO: April 3 – June 2, 2020
IAH: April 15 - May 3, 2020
Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Punta Cana (PUJ)
ORD, IAD, IAH: March 29 – May 30, 2020
EWR: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Queretaro (QRO)
IAH: March 29 - June 3, 2020

Quito (UIO)
IAH: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - June 3, 2020

Rio de Janeiro (GIG)
IAH: March 29 - May 19, 2020

Roatan (RTB)
IAH: March 29 - May 30, 2020

Saint Kitts (SKB)
EWR: March 29 - May 19, 2020

Saint Lucia (UVF)
IAH: Suspended through May 30, 2020
EWR: April 11 - May 19, 2020

Saint Martin (SXM)
EWR, IAD, IAH: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 30, 2020
ORD: Suspended through May 19, 2020

Saint Thomas (STT)
IAD: March 29 - May 3, 2020
IAD: Service operates May 4 - 19
ORD: March 29 - May 19, 2020
IAH, EWR: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

San Jose (SJO)
IAD, ORD: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 19, 2020
EWR: Suspended through June 3, 2020
IAH: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 3, 2020
Service operates May 4 - 19, 2020

San Jose del Cabo (SJD)
EWR, ORD: March 29 - May 30, 2020
DEN, LAX: March 29 – June 3, 2020
SFO: April 3 – May 31, 2020
IAH: April 15 - May 3, 2020
Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

San Juan (SJU)
IAD, IAH, ORD: March 29 - June 3, 2020
EWR: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

San Luis Potosi (SLP)
IAH: March 29 - June 3, 2020

San Pedro Sula (SAP)
EWR: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 30, 2020
IAH: Suspended through June 3 2020

San Salvador (SAL)
EWR: Through May 30, 2020
IAH: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Santiago (SCL)
IAH: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - May 19, 2020

Santiago de los Caballeros (STI)
EWR: March 29 - June 3, 2020

Santo Domingo (SDQ)
IAH: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Sao Paulo (GRU)
EWR, ORD: March 29 - June 3, 2020
IAD: Suspended through October 2020
IAH: Service operates May 4 - May 19, 2020

Tampico (TAM)
IAH: March 29 - June 3, 2020

Tegucigalpa (TGU)
IAH: No later than March 25 (NOC may cancel earlier than 3/25) - June 3, 2020

Veracruz (VER)
IAH: March 29 - June 3, 2020

Zihuatanejo (ZIH)
ORD: March 29 - May 19, 2020
IAH: March 29 - May 30, 2020
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7242
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:47 am

AVENSAB727 wrote:
IAH-AMS won’t restart till 24 October, this surprised me. FRA/MUC/LHR start back up in June.

Oil is way down. The other 2 are ATI JV hubs and London has near-limitless demand to everywhere.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1948
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:07 pm

United just inked a deal for the sale/leaseback of 22 planes to Singapore-based Bank of China Aviation. I hope they're not robbing Peter to pay Paul too much with this deal although the cash should help them get by the next few months with a little more financial cushion.

"United Airlines (NASDAQ:UAL) has entered a sell and lease back deal with Bank of China Aviation for 22 planes that involves 6 Boeing 787-9 aircraft and 16 Boeing 737-9 MAX aircraft.

While the Singapore-based Bank of China Aviation did not reveal how much was the deal worth, it said that the planes will be leased back to United on long-term agreements."

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3561886-u ... ent=link-3
 
GmoneyCO
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:03 pm

73G:
Future N18757 (currently N7706A) was delivered to UA on 16-Apr per FAA records. No formal delivery flight yet but currently at PAE.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 7776
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:09 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
United just inked a deal for the sale/leaseback of 22 planes to Singapore-based Bank of China Aviation. I hope they're not robbing Peter to pay Paul too much with this deal although the cash should help them get by the next few months with a little more financial cushion.

"United Airlines (NASDAQ:UAL) has entered a sell and lease back deal with Bank of China Aviation for 22 planes that involves 6 Boeing 787-9 aircraft and 16 Boeing 737-9 MAX aircraft.

While the Singapore-based Bank of China Aviation did not reveal how much was the deal worth, it said that the planes will be leased back to United on long-term agreements."

https://seekingalpha.com/news/3561886-u ... ent=link-3


I don't think UA can be too worried about total cost of ownership over the 30-year life right now. It's like telling a 30-yr old single mom she needs to be saving for retirement when she's trying to feed her kids this week. UA's strategy for 2023 is to try to be around to see 2023.
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2676
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:29 pm

United Airlines will sell and lease back 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six Boeing 787-9s to BOC Aviation.

The price for the purchase isn't clear but the aircraft will be leased back to United on long-term agreements.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-unit ... SKBN2210HI

I believe Cathay Pacific recently sold 6 777-300ERs to BOC Aviation and will lease them back. I guess we'll see more airlines do this?
 
United1
Posts: 4155
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:40 pm

Ishrion wrote:
United Airlines will sell and lease back 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six Boeing 787-9s to BOC Aviation.

The price for the purchase isn't clear but the aircraft will be leased back to United on long-term agreements.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-unit ... SKBN2210HI

I believe Cathay Pacific recently sold 6 777-300ERs to BOC Aviation and will lease them back. I guess we'll see more airlines do this?


Yeah we will see a lot this from all of the airlines over the coming weeks/months.

UA mentioned they have roughly $20 billion in unencumbered assets they can mortgage if they need to so this is the start of drawing down on that.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
tphuang
Posts: 5067
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:44 pm

Makes sense. Seems like the commercial terms for loans are not great for airlines right now. It's either borrow from govt and or do sale and leaseback. I would imagine the leasing firms must be getting great terms right now.
 
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enilria
Posts: 10189
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:48 pm

Ishrion wrote:
United Airlines will sell and lease back 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six Boeing 787-9s to BOC Aviation.

The price for the purchase isn't clear but the aircraft will be leased back to United on long-term agreements.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-unit ... SKBN2210HI

I believe Cathay Pacific recently sold 6 777-300ERs to BOC Aviation and will lease them back. I guess we'll see more airlines do this?

Pretty risky transaction for BOC. The airlines could file Ch11 if this goes on for a while.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19735
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:59 pm

enilria wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
United Airlines will sell and lease back 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six Boeing 787-9s to BOC Aviation.

The price for the purchase isn't clear but the aircraft will be leased back to United on long-term agreements.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-unit ... SKBN2210HI

I believe Cathay Pacific recently sold 6 777-300ERs to BOC Aviation and will lease them back. I guess we'll see more airlines do this?

Pretty risky transaction for BOC. The airlines could file Ch11 if this goes on for a while.

I would bet terms reflect risk. Leasing companies make money off transactions. BOC is expanding in a down market:
https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/b ... 81.article

Yes, that link shows poor payments last quarter. This is the long game.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
majano
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:45 am

Re: United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:26 pm

lightsaber wrote:
enilria wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
United Airlines will sell and lease back 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six Boeing 787-9s to BOC Aviation.

The price for the purchase isn't clear but the aircraft will be leased back to United on long-term agreements.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-unit ... SKBN2210HI

I believe Cathay Pacific recently sold 6 777-300ERs to BOC Aviation and will lease them back. I guess we'll see more airlines do this?

Pretty risky transaction for BOC. The airlines could file Ch11 if this goes on for a while.

I would bet terms reflect risk. Leasing companies make money off transactions. BOC is expanding in a down market:
https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/b ... 81.article

Yes, that link shows poor payments last quarter. This is the long game.

Lightsaber

Thank you for the link.
 
United1
Posts: 4155
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Re: United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:37 pm

lightsaber wrote:
enilria wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
United Airlines will sell and lease back 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six Boeing 787-9s to BOC Aviation.

The price for the purchase isn't clear but the aircraft will be leased back to United on long-term agreements.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-unit ... SKBN2210HI

I believe Cathay Pacific recently sold 6 777-300ERs to BOC Aviation and will lease them back. I guess we'll see more airlines do this?

Pretty risky transaction for BOC. The airlines could file Ch11 if this goes on for a while.

I would bet terms reflect risk. Leasing companies make money off transactions. BOC is expanding in a down market:
https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/b ... 81.article

Yes, that link shows poor payments last quarter. This is the long game.

Lightsaber


I'm sure the terms are favorable to BOC right now but I don't this is that high risk for BOC either. I don't think UA, DL or WN are going to need to file BK but even if they did and were too walk away or renegotiate the leases. 787-9s and even the 737-9s are going to be fairly easy to place at another carrier.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:00 pm

United1 wrote:
UA mentioned they have roughly $20 billion in unencumbered assets they can mortgage if they need to so this is the start of drawing down on that.


The problem with that $20 Billion number is just what's unencumbered and monetizable at this time. Gates in Chicago? There will be plenty of gates most everywhere. The value of the brand? Hah hah hah! Mileage Plus has no value outside of a mailing list if there's no operating airline.

On March 9, in its term loan of $2 Billion, UA agreed to a collateral coverage ratio not to fall under 1.60 to 1, so they've already signed up to borrowing no more than $6.25 Billion per $10 Billion in assets.

There's a presentation attached to a prospectus for a notes offering from a year ago where UA put an unencumbered value of just $7.5 Billion on the ~425 available aircraft.

There's no way they can squeeze anything close to the $20 Billion book value of these unencumbered assets today.
 
United1
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Re: United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:19 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
United1 wrote:
UA mentioned they have roughly $20 billion in unencumbered assets they can mortgage if they need to so this is the start of drawing down on that.


The problem with that $20 Billion number is just what's unencumbered and monetizable at this time. Gates in Chicago? There will be plenty of gates most everywhere. The value of the brand? Hah hah hah! Mileage Plus has no value outside of a mailing list if there's no operating airline.

On March 9, in its term loan of $2 Billion, UA agreed to a collateral coverage ratio not to fall under 1.60 to 1, so they've already signed up to borrowing no more than $6.25 Billion per $10 Billion in assets.

There's a presentation attached to a prospectus for a notes offering from a year ago where UA put an unencumbered value of just $7.5 Billion on the ~425 available aircraft.

There's no way they can squeeze anything close to the $20 Billion book value of these unencumbered assets today.


You are not wrong that the value of any asset is based upon what people will pay for it not what the book value is. However I think you are grossly underestimating the value of UAs assets. Please note they (nor I) were not taking about UAs brand even though that would be worth quite a bit if UA ever were to liquidate.)

Also Millage Plus is far more valuable then I think you realize....look at Aeroplan for example.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
GmoneyCO
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:29 pm

319:
N882UA - Delivered to UA on 16-Apr per FAA records. Currently in XMN undergoing induction modifications
N872UA - Delivered to UA on 11-Mar per FAA records. Currently in XMN undergoing induction modifications

73G:
Future N18757 (currently N7706A) was delivered to UA on 16-Apr per FAA records. No formal delivery flight yet but currently at PAE.

739:
N67846 - Confirmed with ViaSat wifi
 
tphuang
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Re: United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:44 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
United1 wrote:
UA mentioned they have roughly $20 billion in unencumbered assets they can mortgage if they need to so this is the start of drawing down on that.


The problem with that $20 Billion number is just what's unencumbered and monetizable at this time. Gates in Chicago? There will be plenty of gates most everywhere. The value of the brand? Hah hah hah! Mileage Plus has no value outside of a mailing list if there's no operating airline.

On March 9, in its term loan of $2 Billion, UA agreed to a collateral coverage ratio not to fall under 1.60 to 1, so they've already signed up to borrowing no more than $6.25 Billion per $10 Billion in assets.

There's a presentation attached to a prospectus for a notes offering from a year ago where UA put an unencumbered value of just $7.5 Billion on the ~425 available aircraft.

There's no way they can squeeze anything close to the $20 Billion book value of these unencumbered assets today.


You are 100% right. People are continually overestimating the value of their airlines assets in a low liquidity environment.

Also, I don’t think boc is in that much risk here. They can always defer more narrow body orders if they are concerned about ua paying their lease. They can always lease to someone else for really cheap in a down market. I am sure the transaction reflects current market demand.
 
tphuang
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:46 pm

enilria wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
United Airlines will sell and lease back 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six Boeing 787-9s to BOC Aviation.

The price for the purchase isn't clear but the aircraft will be leased back to United on long-term agreements.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-unit ... SKBN2210HI

I believe Cathay Pacific recently sold 6 777-300ERs to BOC Aviation and will lease them back. I guess we'll see more airlines do this?

Pretty risky transaction for BOC. The airlines could file Ch11 if this goes on for a while.


It’s a bad sign for airlines if this and cares loans are the only source of liquidity left for them.
 
codc10
Posts: 2836
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Sells 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six 787-9s to BOC Aviation

Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:47 pm

tphuang wrote:
enilria wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
United Airlines will sell and lease back 16 Boeing 737 MAX 9s and six Boeing 787-9s to BOC Aviation.

The price for the purchase isn't clear but the aircraft will be leased back to United on long-term agreements.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-unit ... SKBN2210HI

I believe Cathay Pacific recently sold 6 777-300ERs to BOC Aviation and will lease them back. I guess we'll see more airlines do this?


Pretty risky transaction for BOC. The airlines could file Ch11 if this goes on for a while.


It’s a bad sign for airlines if this and cares loans are the only source of liquidity left for them.


These are, of course, extraordinarily bad times... even reasonably healthy airlines (entering this crisis) are running out of commercial lending options.
 
UA444
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:42 pm

Things like Mileage Plus are EXTREMELY valuable. When the financial crisis in 2008 hit, that was one option considered spinning off Mileage Plus. Things like the customer base, the habits of that customer base, credit card data, etc are hugely valuable to a company and worth serious coin if ever put up for bids. One of the ways UA raised liquidity in 2008 was re-doing a deal with Chase, who had the branded MP credit cards, and was able to raise millions in dollars. And the only major condition for the deal was UA could not have less than 1.2 billion in unrestricted cash on hand, a number they never got close to reaching.

It isn’t robbing Peter to pay Paul, either. A large corporations ability to raise liquidity in times like these is hugely important and is often times why one is able to survive and others drown. A perfect example is Ford raising money during 2006 before the lending markets dried up (even mortgaged the logo) which helped them starve off Chapter 11 while GM and Chrysler had to file.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:03 pm

319:
N896UA confirmed with 12F mod completion - 8 to go and most in stations where mods being completed

763:
N647UA exited ILN maint 2761/18Apr, in IAH, parked or stored

Parked/Stored stats https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfle ... ris-update
Wide: 53 units in Operation (mostly 77W/789/78X), 119 stored for more than 14 days, 26 parked 14 days or fewer
Narrow: 142 in Operation (752PW and 739A stored), 225 stored for more than 14 days, 195 parked 14 days or fewer (only 4 752s operating)
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:53 pm

The fleet changes, fleet status, and repaint status posts at the start of this thread have been updated.

There is also a post dedicated to keeping track of stored mainline aircraft.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:58 am

Reuters: United Airlines sells $1 billion of stock in fresh move to weather pandemic
United Airlines Holdings Inc on Tuesday announced a public offering to raise more than $1 billion, the first major airline to sell equity to help it survive a sharp travel downturn in the coronavirus pandemic.

So far they've borrowed $2b, gotten $5b from the government, done a leaseback of 22 aircraft, and are now offering new stock. They're really pulling out all the stops to ensure liquidity.
Last edited by adamblang on Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
KFTG
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:59 am

And keeping everyone on property at full pay!
 
LGeneReese
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:25 am

KFTG wrote:
And keeping everyone on property at full pay!

It has been made clear multiple times this can only be promised until September 30th ...so far.. After that will depend on people traveling again.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1600
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:01 am

LGeneReese wrote:
KFTG wrote:
And keeping everyone on property at full pay!

It has been made clear multiple times this can only be promised until September 30th ...so far.. After that will depend on people traveling again.


Which is in and of itself, amazing to keep that many people on payroll for nearly 6 months. I hope for the best for the UA team. I'm impressed with the agility to do things rather quickly (cargo flights) and pulling out all the financial levers (stock, sell/leaseback, etc.). What's next? Let's hope it's more good business decisions (sell/scrap 757's, CRJ's) and not some of the errors of the past (outsourcing, etc.).
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:28 pm

319:
N889UA exited DLH 2758/21Apr in 12F/36E+/78Y configuration
67 of 74 complete.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3187
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:38 pm

fun2fly wrote:
LGeneReese wrote:
KFTG wrote:
And keeping everyone on property at full pay!

It has been made clear multiple times this can only be promised until September 30th ...so far.. After that will depend on people traveling again.


Which is in and of itself, amazing to keep that many people on payroll for nearly 6 months. I hope for the best for the UA team. I'm impressed with the agility to do things rather quickly (cargo flights) and pulling out all the financial levers (stock, sell/leaseback, etc.). What's next? Let's hope it's more good business decisions (sell/scrap 757's, CRJ's) and not some of the errors of the past (outsourcing, etc.).


only amazing b/c of the government bailout/loan. if not for that, massive layoffs. Even so, there will be large layoffs come October unfortunately.
 
avi8
Posts: 1160
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:53 pm

adamblang wrote:
Reuters: United Airlines sells $1 billion of stock in fresh move to weather pandemic
United Airlines Holdings Inc on Tuesday announced a public offering to raise more than $1 billion, the first major airline to sell equity to help it survive a sharp travel downturn in the coronavirus pandemic.

So far they've borrowed $2b, gotten $5b from the government, done a leaseback of 22 aircraft, and are now offering new stock. They're really pulling out all the stops to ensure liquidity.



United expects a 2.1 billion dollar loss. Holy sh#t.
avi8
 
LGeneReese
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:36 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:58 pm

avi8 wrote:
adamblang wrote:
Reuters: United Airlines sells $1 billion of stock in fresh move to weather pandemic
United Airlines Holdings Inc on Tuesday announced a public offering to raise more than $1 billion, the first major airline to sell equity to help it survive a sharp travel downturn in the coronavirus pandemic.

So far they've borrowed $2b, gotten $5b from the government, done a leaseback of 22 aircraft, and are now offering new stock. They're really pulling out all the stops to ensure liquidity.



United expects a 2.1 billion dollar loss. Holy sh#t.

Should be quite interesting to see what the other three’s numbers are going to be.
 
United1
Posts: 4155
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:34 pm

avi8 wrote:
adamblang wrote:
Reuters: United Airlines sells $1 billion of stock in fresh move to weather pandemic
United Airlines Holdings Inc on Tuesday announced a public offering to raise more than $1 billion, the first major airline to sell equity to help it survive a sharp travel downturn in the coronavirus pandemic.

So far they've borrowed $2b, gotten $5b from the government, done a leaseback of 22 aircraft, and are now offering new stock. They're really pulling out all the stops to ensure liquidity.



United expects a 2.1 billion dollar loss. Holy sh#t.


UA expects about a billion dollar loss from operations.

The other $1.1 billion are losses based on UA writing off the value of a couple of investments. A big chunk of that being Avianca...doesn't mean that the value of that investment will end up being nothing but that loan is in default so UA has to revalue it. Allows UA to do a few things one of the biggest is write it off on their taxes.

The 8K that came out a couple of days ago was NOT UAs final earnings release...
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:59 pm

United Hawaii exemption request may have been denied or UA expects a denial. If the exemption is officially denied UA will operate tag on flights out of SFO to Hawaii.

SFO-LIH-KOA-SFO
SFO-OGG-ITO-SFO
 
codc10
Posts: 2836
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:11 pm

[*]
jayunited wrote:
United Hawaii exemption request may have been denied or UA expects a denial. If the exemption is officially denied UA will operate tag on flights out of SFO to Hawaii.

SFO-LIH-KOA-SFO
SFO-OGG-ITO-SFO


All of the requested non-seasonal exemptions have tentative service in the May schedule. If the DOT grants, they’ll pull the flying.

There’s also RSW-EYW, SAV-HHH, CHS-MYR-ORD and ANC-FAI filed for now.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:02 pm

jayunited wrote:
United Hawaii exemption request may have been denied or UA expects a denial. If the exemption is officially denied UA will operate tag on flights out of SFO to Hawaii.

SFO-LIH-KOA-SFO
SFO-OGG-ITO-SFO

Good move putting longer runway airports on the Hawaii-SFO legs. No need for a 752 on either round robin
 
codc10
Posts: 2836
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:07 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
jayunited wrote:
United Hawaii exemption request may have been denied or UA expects a denial. If the exemption is officially denied UA will operate tag on flights out of SFO to Hawaii.

SFO-LIH-KOA-SFO
SFO-OGG-ITO-SFO

Good move putting longer runway airports on the Hawaii-SFO legs. No need for a 752 on either round robin


An empty 738 to SFO is a non-issue for any of the mainline airports in Hawaii... doubt runway length was even a consideration. UA was flying 737s LIH-SFO/LAX before the meltdown.
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2676
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:33 pm

United's new livery was revealed one year ago on this day.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:14 pm

Ishrion wrote:
United's new livery was revealed one year ago on this day.

Has it really been that long? Wow. They've only done 10% of the regional fleet, and less than 10% of the mainline fleet (many are new deliveries). They're taking about as long as pmUA did with the Shades of Blue livery. At this rate, they should be just about finished by the next merger.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4252
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:21 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
United's new livery was revealed one year ago on this day.

Has it really been that long? Wow. They've only done 10% of the regional fleet, and less than 10% of the mainline fleet (many are new deliveries). They're taking about as long as pmUA did with the Shades of Blue livery. At this rate, they should be just about finished by the next merger.


Keep in mind, that a lot happened when they announced that. The MAX was removed from service which reduced their available downtime and now they have no money. In an ideal world, I am sure it would move quicker.
 
codc10
Posts: 2836
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:21 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
United's new livery was revealed one year ago on this day.

Has it really been that long? Wow. They've only done 10% of the regional fleet, and less than 10% of the mainline fleet (many are new deliveries). They're taking about as long as pmUA did with the Shades of Blue livery. At this rate, they should be just about finished by the next merger.


It was emphasized that most aircraft would get the new livery at normal repainting intervals, so the process was going to be fairly protracted in any event.

With the majority of the fleet idle, in storage, the timetable is pushed out even farther, although there will (sadly) be fewer airplanes needing paint after retirements/removals necessitated by this crisis.

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