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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 12:41 pm

Does anyone have any information on 78X orders? I read somewhere that some options were selected in the Q1 report (7 or 8), obviously before the pandemic. If UA is contractually obligated to take these, would they be more likely to replace 767's or 777's?
 
United1
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 12:54 pm

cosyr wrote:
Does anyone have any information on 78X orders? I read somewhere that some options were selected in the Q1 report (7 or 8), obviously before the pandemic. If UA is contractually obligated to take these, would they be more likely to replace 767's or 777's?


I don't know how exactly they plan on deploying the new 78Xs but all are slated for delivery in 2021. Other tidbits from their Q1 results UA and Boeing settled on compensation for the MAX debacle.
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jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 7:23 pm

So I've been going over UA's narrow-body and wide-body aircraft where they are either parked or stored paying particularly close attention to the 767 and 757 fleet.

I noticed of the RR 752 fleet 11 frames are stored at MCO, 5 frames are stored either at SFO, ORD, DEN, or INT. The remaining RR 752 and all the PW 752 are stored at either ROW or GRY. Of the 753s only one frame is stored at ROW the remaining 753 frames are stored either at one of our hubs, MCO or INT. Of the 763 fleet 9 frames are stored at ROW the remaining frames are either stored at ORD, IAH or IAD. Looking at the 764 fleet that entire fleet has been stored at ROW.

Speaking with people who were on the team that oversaw where to store our aircraft they said decisions were based on how long UA believes the aircraft will be out of service. Aircraft at ROW are in long term storage meaning there is a good probability they will not fly again for at least a year or two years if not longer. While aircraft stored at the hubs can be put back into service in 4 to 6 days depending on if it is a narrow-body or a wide-body. Although things can change and may change I this gave me a clearer picture of what UA's fleet could look like in 2021.

I know I spent a great deal of time saying the 752s will come back and who knows those 16 frames stored at the hubs, MCO and INT could make a return. However seeing that the bulk of the 752 fleet is stored at ROW those frames may not fly again. The same goes for the 764s but they were quick to say no final decision has been made but did point out the chances of an aircraft stored at ROW flying out of there within a year or less is highly unlikely. I was equally surprised to see all 12 737-900s are stored at ROW.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 8:54 pm

The fleet changes, fleet status, and repaint status posts at the start of this thread have been updated.

There is also a post dedicated to keeping track of stored mainline aircraft.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
airplanedriver6
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 9:32 pm

jayunited wrote:
I was equally surprised to see all 12 737-900s are stored at ROW.

Personally, I don't think that's much of a surprise. There's a reason that hardly anybody bought the 737-900 and why Boeing came back with the -900ER. Those 12 airplanes are non-standard and performance limited compared to the rest of the fleet. If UAL has too many airplanes and the choice comes down to parking -900s or -900ERs it's an easy call.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 10:02 pm

Will UA/AA's 757 find life as freighters? I actually thought UA had already had agreements to do that already with UPS.
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
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    calpsafltskeds
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Thu May 07, 2020 10:17 pm

    UA does seem to have a plan for these fleets. There are easy ways to see where aircraft are parked, stored or operating. All updated daily and available from fleet site home page (see links bottom of all my posts).

    1.) Fleet site United Mainline Fleet Spreadsheet - it now has a column for parking location - if empty, aircraft is moving today or tomorrow - if the memo portion is filled, it have been on the ground 14+ days and/or in a storage location will location and date entered (If you'd like to find aircraft at an airport, you can do a find Control/F and put in the code and it will highlight those aircraft)

    2.) Fleet site Coronavirus parked spreadsheet - a bit hard to read but 3 tabs - aircraft with shading are parked, stored have text in red or white and no shading shows aircraft moving today or tomorrow. There are stats at the top for operational/parked/stored units by fleet type.

    3.) Map by Ross Paulson that shows numbers and aircraft in each parked/storage location - it's updated daily from Fleet site data.

    Jay's checked out the 757/767 fleet well. I concur that the MCO/INT units will return first (GYR units are in HMV with one completed today). The 753 fleet may return to be hub to hub and maybe Hawaii after startup.
    Also might indicate smaller units will return quicker (738/G and 319/20) while the 739s will take more time (739non-ER might not return).

    Here's a short rundown of parking/storage location by fleet type:
    319: Long term: RFD/7, ROW/3, LCQ/4 - Mid-term: ORD/PDX/DEN
    320: Long term: ROW/15, RFD/12, LCQ/1 - Mid term: DEN/ORD/PDX
    73G: Long term: ROW/1, - Mid-term: INT/2
    738: Long term: ROW/3, MIA/3, RFD/4, INT/3 - Mid-term: CLE15+/IAH15+/HOU/TPA8/LAX/ORD
    739: Long term: ROW/24, RFD/8, INT/5 - Mid term: CLE15+/IAH15+/DEN/ORD (NOTE: ROW includes all 12 739non-ER units)
    752 mentioned by Jayunited
    753: grab bag ORD/DEN/SFO/MCO
    763: Most in IAH or ROW, 764 all ROW
    788: Now flying about half, 2 each in DEN/SFO. 1 in IAD
    789/78X/77W: Mostly flying
    772: Doemstic, ROW/SFO/ORD/Flying
    772PW: IAD/ROW/ORD/SFO
    772GE: IAD/IAH/ROW/ORD/HKG-Mod
     
    VC10er
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 2:08 pm

    Since I have read quite a bit now regarding UA’s 763’s, here and elsewhere, not one thing I have read mentions in particular the High-J 763’s?

    Before COVID-19 I thought those High-J 763’s were fabulous and I loved flying them in Polaris. It really did feel like UA had something great going between EWR & LHR (with Polaris Lounge, etc) to offer a great experience and effectively compete on this coveted route.

    But with demand close to zero, and fear of spending as a Great Recession 2.0 looms...has anyone mentioned these uniquely configured 763’s?
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    redrooster3
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 2:44 pm

    VC10er wrote:
    Since I have read quite a bit now regarding UA’s 763’s, here and elsewhere, not one thing I have read mentions in particular the High-J 763’s?

    Before COVID-19 I thought those High-J 763’s were fabulous and I loved flying them in Polaris. It really did feel like UA had something great going between EWR & LHR (with Polaris Lounge, etc) to offer a great experience and effectively compete on this coveted route.

    But with demand close to zero, and fear of spending as a Great Recession 2.0 looms...has anyone mentioned these uniquely configured 763’s?


    Most, if not, all of the High-Js are stored in IAH and can be active within days if needed.
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 4:10 pm

    airplanedriver6 wrote:
    jayunited wrote:
    I was equally surprised to see all 12 737-900s are stored at ROW.

    Personally, I don't think that's much of a surprise. There's a reason that hardly anybody bought the 737-900 and why Boeing came back with the -900ER. Those 12 airplanes are non-standard and performance limited compared to the rest of the fleet. If UAL has too many airplanes and the choice comes down to parking -900s or -900ERs it's an easy call.


    The 739s (non-900ERs) aren't so much performance limited as they are weight limited. For example, if I'm recalling correctly, the Max Landing Weight is about 10,000 pounds lighter on the "straight -900s" as the -900ERs.

    I flew the -900s fairly regularly back in the day (flew #401 in it's first week at CO). The were good for 2 or 3 hour flights (think EWR-Florida) or IAH-LAS and such. But if you had a distant alternate airport, the fuel needed could - and sometimes would - limit the payload. The Network folks seemed to not always understand it's limitations and would sometimes seemingly only count seats and where that number of seats could be used (if you get my meaning).
    My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
     
    EssentialPowr
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 6:23 pm

    FlyHossD wrote:
    airplanedriver6 wrote:
    jayunited wrote:
    I was equally surprised to see all 12 737-900s are stored at ROW.

    Personally, I don't think that's much of a surprise. There's a reason that hardly anybody bought the 737-900 and why Boeing came back with the -900ER. Those 12 airplanes are non-standard and performance limited compared to the rest of the fleet. If UAL has too many airplanes and the choice comes down to parking -900s or -900ERs it's an easy call.


    The 739s (non-900ERs) aren't so much performance limited as they are weight limited. For example, if I'm recalling correctly, the Max Landing Weight is about 10,000 pounds lighter on the "straight -900s" as the -900ERs.

    I flew the -900s fairly regularly back in the day (flew #401 in it's first week at CO). The were good for 2 or 3 hour flights (think EWR-Florida) or IAH-LAS and such. But if you had a distant alternate airport, the fuel needed could - and sometimes would - limit the payload. The Network folks seemed to not always understand it's limitations and would sometimes seemingly only count seats and where that number of seats could be used (if you get my meaning).


    Agreed. The bone stock 900s show a MGTOW of 174700 lbs vs 188200 for the -ER, 147300 vs 157300 for MLW, and 140300 vs 149300 for ZFW. ERs had the new flat aft bulkhead, aft door cutouts, retractable tail skid (2 iterations I believe) and more, plus different LED extension logic. The latter characteristic results in the fasted approach speeds in the business, generally 150 kts plus wind additive. They’re tweaky at flaps 40 in a crosswind; flaps 40 is used mostly in auto land scenarios. United doesn’t have the HUD option, the 737s are autoland.
     
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 7:37 pm

    I believe the 739non-ERs have been scheduled successfully in and out of IAH for a couple years or more as stage lengths are not an issue. If UA is grounding aircraft these should be brought back last, but they are capable units that should be saving UA about $50 on landing fees per arrival vs. the ER.
     
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 7:57 pm

    [*]
    calpsafltskeds wrote:
    I believe the 739non-ERs have been scheduled successfully in and out of IAH for a couple years or more as stage lengths are not an issue. If UA is grounding aircraft these should be brought back last, but they are capable units that should be saving UA about $50 on landing fees per arrival vs. the ER.


    They’re certainly utilized in just about every hub as all -900s have great seat mile costs. Not so much a DEN airplane in the winter as only the ERs do the Flaps 5 go around for ice accretion...
     
    CHOWahoo
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 9:40 pm

    United has quietly nixed its plan to issue $2.25bn in debt. Anyone know what's up? Does it not need the money or was the bid/ask not to its liking?
    Source: https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/100517/000119312520137726/d920021d8k.htm
     
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 9:58 pm

    CHOWahoo wrote:
    United has quietly nixed its plan to issue $2.25bn in debt. Anyone know what's up? Does it not need the money or was the bid/ask not to its liking?
    Source: https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/100517/000119312520137726/d920021d8k.htm


    Market reception was cool. Even with 11% coupon rate investors were not excited particularly with old'ish fleet collateral
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 9:59 pm

    Headcount targets for widebody fleet with the displacement bid.

    Image
    From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
     
    CHOWahoo
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 10:03 pm

    LAXintl wrote:
    Market reception was cool. Even with 11% coupon rate investors were not excited particularly with old'ish fleet collateral


    Ouch. I had been hearing high-single digits yesterday, so things obviously deteriorated.
     
    MIflyer12
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 10:04 pm

    LAXintl wrote:
    CHOWahoo wrote:
    United has quietly nixed its plan to issue $2.25bn in debt. Anyone know what's up? Does it not need the money or was the bid/ask not to its liking?
    Source: https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/100517/000119312520137726/d920021d8k.htm


    Market reception was cool. Even with 11% coupon rate investors were not excited particularly with old'ish fleet collateral


    That is a very bad sign two ways:

    1. It wasn't intended to be entirely incremental debt: From the 8-K on 5/6/20

    United intends to use the net proceeds from the offering of the Notes to repay the $2.0 billion aggregate principal amount outstanding under the
    term loan facility that United entered into on March 9, 2020 and, to the extent that any net proceeds remain, for general corporate purposes. The final
    terms and amounts of the Notes are subject to market and other conditions and may be materially different than expectations.


    2. The debt markets are starting to segregate winners and losers. Another carrier borrowed a lot more $ at a much lower rate recently.
     
    United1
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 10:55 pm

    LAXintl wrote:
    Headcount targets for widebody fleet with the displacement bid.

    Image


    So that works out to roughly 45 of the 756 fleet making it through this. All of the 777 and 787 fleets should be fine.

    Please note I’m assuming 5 CAs per plane in the fleet if that number is higher the number of aircraft will be less.
    Last edited by United1 on Fri May 08, 2020 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    tphuang
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 10:55 pm

    I guess given this kind of reception, UA pretty much has to take the gov't loans. If they can't even get buyers with 11% interest, that's not a good sign.
     
    CriticalPoint
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 10:58 pm

    LAXintl wrote:
    Headcount targets for widebody fleet with the displacement bid.

    Image


    I really wish people would stop posting internal communications. The more it happens the less information we get.

    We don’t get to see the planned WB aircraft vs. destination chart anymore because people keep posting it online.
     
    Nicknuzzii
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 11:16 pm

    LAXintl wrote:
    Headcount targets for widebody fleet with the displacement bid.

    Image


    Do you have the pre Covid numbers?
     
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 11:17 pm

    CriticalPoint wrote:
    LAXintl wrote:
    Headcount targets for widebody fleet with the displacement bid.

    Image


    I really wish people would stop posting internal communications. The more it happens the less information we get.

    We don’t get to see the planned WB aircraft vs. destination chart anymore because people keep posting it online.


    Why is this a problem for you or something the airline would care about?
     
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 11:26 pm

    319:
    N836UA exited DLH 2755/8May with 12F/36E+/78Y configuration.
    69 of 74 complete.

    772:
    N76010 sked to exited HKG 2864/10May w/Polaris/PP
    772GE #20 of 22 complete (N78013 expected to exit HKG soon, N77014 stored in IAH)

    78X:
    N13013 first revenue flight 989/5May IAD-FRA
    Last edited by calpsafltskeds on Fri May 08, 2020 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    redrooster3
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 11:35 pm

    This looks like the end for the 764s and PW757s. In an email I got earlier today.

    "Currently, we’ve parked 450 mainline aircraft and 300 United Express aircraft across 23 locations. Some of those planes were already slated for retirement, including our B767-400 and B757 PS fleets."
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    CriticalPoint
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Fri May 08, 2020 11:54 pm

    Nicknuzzii wrote:
    CriticalPoint wrote:
    LAXintl wrote:
    Headcount targets for widebody fleet with the displacement bid.

    Image


    I really wish people would stop posting internal communications. The more it happens the less information we get.

    We don’t get to see the planned WB aircraft vs. destination chart anymore because people keep posting it online.


    Why is this a problem for you or something the airline would care about?


    Maybe they don’t care. It just irks me when I see screen grabs of company communications. I prefer to get more information from the company but this shows we can’t be trusted with more information.
     
    UA444
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 1:36 am

    redrooster3 wrote:
    This looks like the end for the 764s and PW757s. In an email I got earlier today.

    "Currently, we’ve parked 450 mainline aircraft and 300 United Express aircraft across 23 locations. Some of those planes were already slated for retirement, including our B767-400 and B757 PS fleets."

    Bigger bombshell is the fact they previously planned to retire the 764 in the first place.
     
    United1
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 1:43 am

    UA444 wrote:
    redrooster3 wrote:
    This looks like the end for the 764s and PW757s. In an email I got earlier today.

    "Currently, we’ve parked 450 mainline aircraft and 300 United Express aircraft across 23 locations. Some of those planes were already slated for retirement, including our B767-400 and B757 PS fleets."

    Bigger bombshell is the fact they previously planned to retire the 764 in the first place.


    That is a big bombshell but I suppose not all that surprising after the additional 78X orders.

    I wonder if UA had/has a buyer lined up for them. UA generally markets their former aircraft to airlines they don't compete with so will be interesting to see where they end up.
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    smartplane
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 2:04 am

    Airlines are being circumspect about fleet plans. Partly because they don't know. Partly because it might trigger labour issues / negotiations. Partly because if there is a floating charge over them, lenders must be informed if permanently withdrawn from service. And partly because if any book value (usually the result of improvements, major service, significant new / overhauled parts) values need to be reviewed and written down / off promptly.
     
    jayunited
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 2:19 am

    redrooster3 wrote:
    This looks like the end for the 764s and PW757s. In an email I got earlier today.

    "Currently, we’ve parked 450 mainline aircraft and 300 United Express aircraft across 23 locations. Some of those planes were already slated for retirement, including our B767-400 and B757 PS fleets."



    I wonder when they made the decision about the 764s because as recently as January the 764s are showing schedule for Polaris/PE installations slated to begin later this year.

    However January 2020 is the last update in they system for Polaris/PE because by late February it was clear things were about to change. Also when were the additional 78X orders were place and was this top off order the nail that sealed the 764s fate? Would love to see that email perhaps next week UA will make some type of public announcement.
     
    codc10
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 4:14 am

    Projected WB staffing numbers suggest little augmented (long haul) flying. Not a surprise...

    tphuang wrote:
    I guess given this kind of reception, UA pretty much has to take the gov't loans. If they can't even get buyers with 11% interest, that's not a good sign.


    These aren’t the only airplanes UA can collateralize. The package was basically a refinance at a pretty favorable loan to value rate. The tepid reaction is a bit of a surprise, though.

    Speaks more to the industry outlook than a particularly grim sign for United, insofar as the market doesn’t see much value in 18-20 year old frames... and US carriers have a lot of them.
     
    KFTG
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 5:25 am

    The Fed is buying junk bonds. Wonder if they’d be interested?
     
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    janders
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 5:37 am

    Not pretty outcome for United.
    Lets see if they go back to the market with a reduced size bond offer.

    Late on Friday, after some 48 hours of frantic attempts to lure investors to their faltering bond sale, executives at United Airlines let it be known that the deal was dead.

    It was an odd moment, stuck smack in the middle of one of the busiest corporate bond booms ever, a period in which investors have shown themselves to be receptive to almost any debt offer backed by good collateral. But this last part was where United got in trouble. For collateral, it had scraped together 360 old jets, some of which analysts considered would be nearly worthless in a few years.



    When United pawned old jets, bond traders sent a stark warning
    https://www.chicagobusiness.com/airline ... rk-warning
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    atcsundevil
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 6:52 am

    janders wrote:
    Not pretty outcome for United.
    Lets see if they go back to the market with a reduced size bond offer.

    Late on Friday, after some 48 hours of frantic attempts to lure investors to their faltering bond sale, executives at United Airlines let it be known that the deal was dead.

    It was an odd moment, stuck smack in the middle of one of the busiest corporate bond booms ever, a period in which investors have shown themselves to be receptive to almost any debt offer backed by good collateral. But this last part was where United got in trouble. For collateral, it had scraped together 360 old jets, some of which analysts considered would be nearly worthless in a few years.



    When United pawned old jets, bond traders sent a stark warning
    https://www.chicagobusiness.com/airline ... rk-warning

    That's strange. Did they not want to put up newer aircraft as collateral for some reason, or are too many of their newer aircraft on lease? If the latter is the case, that really doesn't bode well for their financial health. Sort of makes you wonder what they've been doing to better position themselves for the past decade, apart from stock buybacks, which obviously isn't looking so awesome right now.
     
    UAinAUS
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 8:25 am

    UAX Update:

    All ExpressJet E175SCs are no longer flying for ExpressJet as the transition to Skywest continues.
    Already Flying for Skywest: 601, 602, 619, 620, 621, 624, 625
    At BOI for Skywest prep: 603, 608, 617
    At OKC for Skywest prep: 604, 605, 606, 607, 609, 610, 611, 612, 613, 614, 615, 616, 618, 622, 623

    There has been a large drawdown of the active ZW CR2 Fleet. The following units are temporarily parked:
    ATW: 471, 470, 469, 467, 459, 456, 449, 444, 439, 435, 434, 430, 427, 419, 417, 416, 415, 413, 405
    DAY: 463, 462, 460, 458, 455, 454, 453, 452, 448, 447, 446, 445, 442, 421, 418, 414, 411
    ROW: 451, 440, 438, 437, 436
     
    airlineaddict
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 8:36 am

    MIflyer12 wrote:

    2. The debt markets are starting to segregate winners and losers. Another carrier borrowed a lot more $ at a much lower rate recently.


    Any info on the collateral used by the other carrier?
     
    UA444
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 9:11 am

    United1 wrote:
    UA444 wrote:
    redrooster3 wrote:
    This looks like the end for the 764s and PW757s. In an email I got earlier today.

    "Currently, we’ve parked 450 mainline aircraft and 300 United Express aircraft across 23 locations. Some of those planes were already slated for retirement, including our B767-400 and B757 PS fleets."

    Bigger bombshell is the fact they previously planned to retire the 764 in the first place.


    That is a big bombshell but I suppose not all that surprising after the additional 78X orders.

    I wonder if UA had/has a buyer lined up for them. UA generally markets their former aircraft to airlines they don't compete with so will be interesting to see where they end up.

    If Delta were to retire some or all of theirs, the rationale for converting all 37 to freighters if FX and 5X are interested goes up substantially. Both also fly other GE 767s, and have MD-11’s with CF6 engines, while that engine is an oddball at UA. My guess is they wanted to retire it the same way the USAF wanted to dump the KC-10. A completely removal of a fleet type has more cost savings than retiring a few more KC-135s.

    And if I’m Boeing and a 764BCF is liked by one of those airlines, perhaps they revisit the proposal they had to build new freighters for FX a few years ago.
     
    Okcflyer
    Posts: 668
    Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 11:09 am

    UA444 wrote:
    United1 wrote:
    UA444 wrote:
    Bigger bombshell is the fact they previously planned to retire the 764 in the first place.


    That is a big bombshell but I suppose not all that surprising after the additional 78X orders.

    I wonder if UA had/has a buyer lined up for them. UA generally markets their former aircraft to airlines they don't compete with so will be interesting to see where they end up.

    If Delta were to retire some or all of theirs, the rationale for converting all 37 to freighters if FX and 5X are interested goes up substantially. Both also fly other GE 767s, and have MD-11’s with CF6 engines, while that engine is an oddball at UA. My guess is they wanted to retire it the same way the USAF wanted to dump the KC-10. A completely removal of a fleet type has more cost savings than retiring a few more KC-135s.

    And if I’m Boeing and a 764BCF is liked by one of those airlines, perhaps they revisit the proposal they had to build new freighters for FX a few years ago.


    The issue for 5x and Fx is the wingspan is greater than the 763/A300. It would, however, fit in MD10/11 gates.
     
    jayunited
    Posts: 2960
    Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 12:39 pm

    atcsundevil wrote:
    That's strange. Did they not want to put up newer aircraft as collateral for some reason, or are too many of their newer aircraft on lease? If the latter is the case, that really doesn't bode well for their financial health. Sort of makes you wonder what they've been doing to better position themselves for the past decade, apart from stock buybacks, which obviously isn't looking so awesome right now.



    What has United been doing for the past decade?

    We know for the past decade UA the AA and DL have been preparing for and were ready for a 9/11 type event where air travel was shut down for 3 days, but demand did return. If this were a 9/11 type event it would not have been a problem for any carrier but now we are 2 months into this shut down and of course hindsight is 20/20.

    Back in late March in the main Coronavirus thread people criticized those of us who stated the US3 should have had more liquidity by saying it is not good for companies to keep the kind of liquidity they now need on hand. Some people we're criticized for suggesting airlines may want to keep $10-$20 million dollars in cash on hand for next pandemic and they we're criticized for making those comments. Should the US3 have been involved in stock buybacks well in hindsight the answer is no. However before COVID-19 the only people complaining about the stock buybacks were employees, while everyone else thought airlines had a responsibility to give something back to their investors. COVID-19 aside you know what UA has done to better position themselves you only need look at their Q4 and full year 2019 financial results. It is not really a fair question or criticism to ask what UA has been doing for the past decade when for the past decade the bench mark incident all airlines judged themselves against was 9/11. According to a recent report out yesterday the U.S. has not seen demand at this level since the 1950's. United was effected a lot earlier than other U.S. carriers because of our extensive international routes that we're cut in February. But overall UA was as prepared as any other carrier could be for an event that has seen demand drop 90%-95%.

    Should UA survive this and I believe UA will you will see them and all airlines better prepared for the next pandemic. Also what isn't fair is UA was the only airline called out for trying to reduce employees hours while other airlines some major other are niche or LCCs have done the exact same thing. From the beginning of this crisis I think UA and Kirby has done the best they could, UA was first out of the gate to respond to COVID-19 from a operational standpoint and from a management and administrative standpoint. The unions were left untouched because we thought CARES would cover 100% of the payroll which it did not. UA's plan to reduce daily cash burn to $45 million is now in jeopardy because we were the only airline called out for doing what other airlines have done and subsequently UA relented for at least a month. So for the month of June UA's daily cash burn might be closer to $60-$65 million dollars. Judging from UA Q1 results operationally UA managed the fall out better than AA, operationally we were only $105 million dollars behind DL. Delta has not release how much money they lost on assets that temporarily have no value, UA did which is how we got to $1.2 Billion dollar lost which was still a billion dollars better than American.
    Last edited by jayunited on Sat May 09, 2020 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
     
    tphuang
    Posts: 5325
    Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 12:40 pm

    UA444 wrote:
    redrooster3 wrote:
    This looks like the end for the 764s and PW757s. In an email I got earlier today.

    "Currently, we’ve parked 450 mainline aircraft and 300 United Express aircraft across 23 locations. Some of those planes were already slated for retirement, including our B767-400 and B757 PS fleets."

    Bigger bombshell is the fact they previously planned to retire the 764 in the first place.

    Does this mean all the 757s with lie flat are gone or just a portion? Sorry for my ignorance here. What about the 300s?
     
    fun2fly
    Posts: 1615
    Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 12:52 pm

    redrooster3 wrote:
    This looks like the end for the 764s and PW757s. In an email I got earlier today.

    "Currently, we’ve parked 450 mainline aircraft and 300 United Express aircraft across 23 locations. Some of those planes were already slated for retirement, including our B767-400 and B757 PS fleets."


    If I recall correctly, the 764 Polaris mod was delayed earlier this year or in Q4 2019. I'm not sure if it was cancelled, but someone out there in our community will surely know. Perhaps, as they state, UA was always planning this an potentially even has a buyer. That would be a huge win for UA.

    Either way, we now have one piece of the puzzle complete: 11 remaining PS + 16 764's = 27 aircraft confirmed for removal from the fleet. What's next?

    I'll miss the 764, it was the backbone of the TATL network for UA for many years.

    Separately, there was always the rumor that UA was going to acquire 14 more 78J's, which turned out to be 7 at least at this time. My guess is that UA is finding that the 78J is phenomenally efficient for their network.
     
    United1
    Posts: 4185
    Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 12:52 pm

    tphuang wrote:
    UA444 wrote:
    redrooster3 wrote:
    This looks like the end for the 764s and PW757s. In an email I got earlier today.

    "Currently, we’ve parked 450 mainline aircraft and 300 United Express aircraft across 23 locations. Some of those planes were already slated for retirement, including our B767-400 and B757 PS fleets."

    Bigger bombshell is the fact they previously planned to retire the 764 in the first place.

    Does this mean all the 757s with lie flat are gone or just a portion? Sorry for my ignorance here. What about the 300s?


    The 757 PS fleet in this case are the PW powered 752s...the 75Ks.

    We don't know about the rest yet...
    I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
     
    jayunited
    Posts: 2960
    Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 1:07 pm

    tphuang wrote:
    Does this mean all the 757s with lie flat are gone or just a portion? Sorry for my ignorance here. What about the 300s?


    What I was told and posted in an earlier post from the team that oversaw UA's storage program was this, aircraft stored at ROW most likely will not fly again for at least one or two years if not longer. Aircraft stored at the hubs and line stations can be put back into service in a matter of days. UA has 16 RR 752 parked between MCO, our HUBS, and INT, the remaining RR 752 fleet and the entire PW 752 fleet is stored at ROW. Only 1 753 is stored at ROW the remaining 753 fleet is stored at locations where they can be placed back into service in a matter of days. Most of the 763s are parked at IAH, ORD, or IAD, I believe 9 763 frames are stored at ROW.

    Personally I still believe the 16 752s will be back in service on EWR-SFO/LAX and BOS-SFO routes until there are enough MAX-10s to take over those routes. As demand returns I don't see UA leaving 738s on those routes and I think it really comes down to those lie flat seats. I could be wrong and the entire 752 fleet could be retired but why park almost the entire fleet at ROW but park 16 752 frames at the hubs, MCO and INT?
     
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    atcsundevil
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 1:34 pm

    jayunited wrote:
    What has United been doing for the past decade?

    We know for the past decade UA the AA and DL have been preparing for and were ready for a 9/11 type event where air travel was shut down for 3 days, but demand did return. If this were a 9/11 type event it would not have been a problem for any carrier but now we are 2 months into this shut down and of course hindsight is 20/20.

    Back in late March in the main Coronavirus thread people criticized those of us who stated the US3 should have had more liquidity by saying it is not good for companies to keep the kind of liquidity they now need on hand. Some people we're criticized for suggesting airlines may want to keep $10-$20 million dollars in cash on hand for next pandemic and they we're criticized for making those comments. Should the US3 have been involved in stock buybacks well in hindsight the answer is no. However before COVID-19 the only people complaining about the stock buybacks were employees, while everyone else thought airlines had a responsibility to give something back to their investors. COVID-19 aside you know what UA has done to better position themselves you only need look at their Q4 and full year 2019 financial results. It is not really a fair question or criticism to ask what UA has been doing for the past decade when for the past decade the bench mark incident all airlines judged themselves against was 9/11. According to a recent report out yesterday the U.S. has not seen demand at this level since the 1950's. United was effected a lot earlier than other U.S. carriers because of our extensive international routes that we're cut in February. But overall UA was as prepared as any other carrier could be for an event that has seen demand drop 90%-95%.

    Should UA survive this and I believe UA will you will see them and all airlines better prepared for the next pandemic. Also what isn't fair is UA was the only airline called out for trying to reduce employees hours while other airlines some major other are niche or LCCs have done the exact same thing. From the beginning of this crisis I think UA and Kirby has done the best they could, UA was first out of the gate to respond to COVID-19 from a operational standpoint and from a management and administrative standpoint. The unions were left untouched because we thought CARES would cover 100% of the payroll which it did not. UA's plan to reduce daily cash burn to $45 million is now in jeopardy because we were the only airline called out for doing what other airlines have done and subsequently UA relented for at least a month. So for the month of June UA's daily cash burn might be closer to $60-$65 million dollars. Judging from UA Q1 results operationally UA managed the fall out better than AA, operationally we were only $105 million dollars behind DL. Delta has not release how much money they lost on assets that temporarily have no value, UA did which is how we got to $1.2 Billion dollar lost which was still a billion dollars better than American.

    I didn't intend for my "what were they doing" statement to be contentious or overly critical, I was mainly intending it in regard to their fleet ownership plans. That's why I was asking why old aircraft were put up as collateral as part of this plan. Given their financial results for the past decade, it seems to me that they should have had the liquidity to ensure that they outright own a portion of their newer jets. Certainly for business sense you want to keep a percentage of them on lease, but if they owned enough newer jets, then presumably they should have been part of this deal.

    I don't know where United lies in terms of relative financial strength in comparison to the other major US carriers, which is why I was asking those questions. It would seem that they're better off than American, but worse off than Delta. Granted Delta has been quite a bit more profitable over the years, but I suppose the optics of United attempting a fundraiser by putting up older aircraft as collateral aren't good. I just wanted to know if they had other options and chose not to go that way, or if this is the best they could offer. If this was the best they could pull together, then it seems to me that's fairly concerning, and it might justify the comparably grim outlook coming from management. I don't mean to suggest they won't survive, but how they survive and what their future holds could be real question.
     
    codc10
    Posts: 2897
    Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 1:47 pm

    atcsundevil wrote:
    jayunited wrote:
    What has United been doing for the past decade?

    We know for the past decade UA the AA and DL have been preparing for and were ready for a 9/11 type event where air travel was shut down for 3 days, but demand did return. If this were a 9/11 type event it would not have been a problem for any carrier but now we are 2 months into this shut down and of course hindsight is 20/20.

    Back in late March in the main Coronavirus thread people criticized those of us who stated the US3 should have had more liquidity by saying it is not good for companies to keep the kind of liquidity they now need on hand. Some people we're criticized for suggesting airlines may want to keep $10-$20 million dollars in cash on hand for next pandemic and they we're criticized for making those comments. Should the US3 have been involved in stock buybacks well in hindsight the answer is no. However before COVID-19 the only people complaining about the stock buybacks were employees, while everyone else thought airlines had a responsibility to give something back to their investors. COVID-19 aside you know what UA has done to better position themselves you only need look at their Q4 and full year 2019 financial results. It is not really a fair question or criticism to ask what UA has been doing for the past decade when for the past decade the bench mark incident all airlines judged themselves against was 9/11. According to a recent report out yesterday the U.S. has not seen demand at this level since the 1950's. United was effected a lot earlier than other U.S. carriers because of our extensive international routes that we're cut in February. But overall UA was as prepared as any other carrier could be for an event that has seen demand drop 90%-95%.

    Should UA survive this and I believe UA will you will see them and all airlines better prepared for the next pandemic. Also what isn't fair is UA was the only airline called out for trying to reduce employees hours while other airlines some major other are niche or LCCs have done the exact same thing. From the beginning of this crisis I think UA and Kirby has done the best they could, UA was first out of the gate to respond to COVID-19 from a operational standpoint and from a management and administrative standpoint. The unions were left untouched because we thought CARES would cover 100% of the payroll which it did not. UA's plan to reduce daily cash burn to $45 million is now in jeopardy because we were the only airline called out for doing what other airlines have done and subsequently UA relented for at least a month. So for the month of June UA's daily cash burn might be closer to $60-$65 million dollars. Judging from UA Q1 results operationally UA managed the fall out better than AA, operationally we were only $105 million dollars behind DL. Delta has not release how much money they lost on assets that temporarily have no value, UA did which is how we got to $1.2 Billion dollar lost which was still a billion dollars better than American.

    I didn't intend for my "what were they doing" statement to be contentious or overly critical, I was mainly intending it in regard to their fleet ownership plans. That's why I was asking why old aircraft were put up as collateral as part of this plan. Given their financial results for the past decade, it seems to me that they should have had the liquidity to ensure that they outright own a portion of their newer jets. Certainly for business sense you want to keep a percentage of them on lease, but if they owned enough newer jets, then presumably they should have been part of this deal.

    I don't know where United lies in terms of relative financial strength in comparison to the other major US carriers, which is why I was asking those questions. It would seem that they're better off than American, but worse off than Delta. Granted Delta has been quite a bit more profitable over the years, but I suppose the optics of United attempting a fundraiser by putting up older aircraft as collateral aren't good. I just wanted to know if they had other options and chose not to go that way, or if this is the best they could offer. If this was the best they could pull together, then it seems to me that's fairly concerning, and it might justify the comparably grim outlook coming from management. I don't mean to suggest they won't survive, but how they survive and what their future holds could be real question.


    This was not a "last, best" attempt to raise funds. Again, it's much more of an indication that the investment community sees little value in old aircraft, going forward. United has a number of newer, owned airplanes that can be part of future debt offerings.

    One thing that goes unmentioned quite a bit is that United bought dozens of aircraft off lease during the 2010s boom times, using free cash flow. That will figure into United's ability to raise cash, although expectations may be tempered based on this week's attempted offering. Believe me, the failure was a surprising development in the industry... not completely unforeseeable, but I don't think many people expected this deal to fall apart the way it did. It will no doubt influence the way other airlines approach the debt market in the coming weeks.

    I would also agree that United falls somewhere between AA and DL/WN in terms of prospects coming out of this crisis. UA is in better financial health than AA, but if the recovery is primarily domestic, its starting position is behind the others.
     
    FlyHossD
    Posts: 2100
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 2:36 pm

    Is the threat of removing the 764s from the fleet a negotiating position? That is, the 764s pay wide body pay rates for the pilots, like the 787s and 777s, whereas the 763s pay only the same as the 753s; both are just a bit more than the 752s, 738s and 739s. So will UA argue that since the 763s pay less and are used similarly to the 764s, they should both pay the same lower rate?

    Having had flown the 764s, I found them to be capable aircraft and often wished that CO hadn't cancelled the orders for the last 10 in the post 9/11 environment (rather that CO had found a way to postpone the last orders). I firmly believe that CO could have and would have made good use of more 764s, especially with the lengthy 787 delays.
    My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
     
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    VCVSpotter
    Posts: 1241
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 3:03 pm

    redrooster3 wrote:
    This looks like the end for the 764s and PW757s. In an email I got earlier today.

    "Currently, we’ve parked 450 mainline aircraft and 300 United Express aircraft across 23 locations. Some of those planes were already slated for retirement, including our B767-400 and B757 PS fleets."


    Any idea if ALL of the retired 757/764s will stay at ROW, or if there will be any movement between boneyards? When UA retired their 744s, most of them flew to VCV but then flew out to various scrap yards across the US such as MZJ, TUP, and MEB. Will something similar happen...(if there aren't other airlines waiting to take them up)? I can see 757s going to cargo as others stated, but is there a market for a 764 in this situation?
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

    Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell KLM 747-400M
     
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    calpsafltskeds
    Posts: 3226
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 3:36 pm

    For what it's worth "Her Art Here" N14102 sked to enter ROW today 2720/9May

    Interesting article from 2011 on the 764 potential freighter. Obviously times changed, but the fact that the 764 was considered for a freighter means the aircraft makes senses as a freighter and has crew compatibility with 757 - maybe FedEx would be interested in picking them up to replace 12 40+ year old DC10-10s, adding cargo space and 2500NM extra range. The negatives: 764 has a 5 foot wider windspan and is 19 feet longer than the DC10-10.

    I hate to see these frames go, but the market dictates reduction in fleet and I'm pretty sure UA must have a place to sell them or they would instead dump the 10 year older 763s and just grab their Polaris seats. Of course some of the 763s may go as well. The situation with with different engines on a 16 aircraft 764 fleet and 11 aircraft 757PW fleet will save costs. Let's hope UA has a buyer for the newest 6 757PW units as well.

    Obviously FedEx is using the DC10-10s in domestic service as it probably can't make TATL from MEM (3500NM range and heavy cargo could further limit range).
    https://cargofacts.com/allposts/news/fe ... freighter/

    It looks like all but 1 DL 767-300 has PW engines, meaning DL has the same issue with CF6 engines on the 764. Could DL see a buyer of their 764s as enticing during these dire times? A fleet of 37 would sure make more sense for a carrier like FedEx.
     
    cruiseshipcrew
    Posts: 272
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    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 4:55 pm

    VCVSpotter wrote:
    redrooster3 wrote:
    This looks like the end for the 764s and PW757s. In an email I got earlier today.

    "Currently, we’ve parked 450 mainline aircraft and 300 United Express aircraft across 23 locations. Some of those planes were already slated for retirement, including our B767-400 and B757 PS fleets."


    Any idea if ALL of the retired 757/764s will stay at ROW, or if there will be any movement between boneyards? When UA retired their 744s, most of them flew to VCV but then flew out to various scrap yards across the US such as MZJ, TUP, and MEB. Will something similar happen...(if there aren't other airlines waiting to take them up)? I can see 757s going to cargo as others stated, but is there a market for a 764 in this situation?


    The airplanes can end up at a variety of airports just like several of the United 757s recently that spent time in Goodyear before ferrying to their final scrapping site. The two recent 747-400s went to MZJ to have work done for their new buyers. I think you will see the remaining PW 757s going to Tupelo for scrapping. The 767-300s or other 757-200s would depend on how much life they have left in their parts. The scrapper at TUP is known to be more of the bottom feeders in the business. They bid the lowest and get air frames that are worth a lot less in parts.
     
    jayunited
    Posts: 2960
    Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

    Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

    Sat May 09, 2020 4:59 pm

    codc10 wrote:
    I would also agree that United falls somewhere between AA and DL/WN in terms of prospects coming out of this crisis. UA is in better financial health than AA, but if the recovery is primarily domestic, its starting position is behind the others.


    You do make a great point about domestic vs international.

    I do believe in the beginning the recovery will be primarily domestic, then perhaps by the fall/winter season it may spread to beach locations in the Caribbean and Mexico. Although UA was the weakest domestic carrier when compared to AA, DL and WN, could AA's financial position provide UA with an opening to hit the reset button domestically and perhaps gain some much needed domestic market share.

    Looking at UA's current fleet what would be a good strategy going forward for UA to gain domestic market share seeing that we have the largest wide-body fleet but the smallest narrow-body fleet? Are our wide-bodies useless in a fight for a larger piece of the domestic market?

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