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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:22 pm

RE 321XLR vs. MAX 10,
It would make sense to have common types, so one might thing a larger XLR fleet might be worth the extra landing fees and fuel expense to "commonize" by dropping the MAX10 and buying more 321XLRs for Transcons.
However, there will probably be different seats setups for TATL and Transcon premium seating, including maybe a different J seat. Maybe even a 4 or 5 across PP cabin on TATL.
If UA was looking at more 321s, it might make more sense to buy the NEO or LR, but that adds a fleet type as well and they would duplicate the MAX9 fleet.
I like that Airbus dropped Door 2, which allows a sliding configuration that hopefully will allow mid cabin lav at the back of J/F seating.
I'm sure Boeing would be giving a screaming deal on the MAX10s due to MAX issues and it has lower operating costs/landing fees.
 
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Polot
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:27 pm

In the end UA is still planning on having a large 737-8/9 fleet, so having Max 10s really isn’t any added complication even though they are similar in size to the A321XLR, which let’s not forget is still 5 years away from delivery for UA (and 4 years away from EIS period).
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:34 pm

Does this mean no 777s from ORD, IAD, and IAH Doing long haul flying?
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
tphuang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:52 pm

I think XLR is a gateway drug for UA from Airbus. If UA likes it, they'd more willing to replace some of existing A319/320s with NEO series down the line.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:55 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Does this mean no 777s from ORD, IAD, and IAH Doing long haul flying?

Essentially no. Will there be a few oddball routes? Yes.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 3:16 pm

Just hypothetical thinking here, if UA is basing the 777s at EWR and SFO, what are they planning on doing with them? We will probably see around 45ish based at EWR but on what routes? Transcons? TATL? Relieve some of the congestion and put them on routes like EWR - MCO/TPA/CUN/FLL?
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 3:18 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Does this mean no 777s from ORD, IAD, and IAH Doing long haul flying?

Essentially no. Will there be a few oddball routes? Yes.


If the 77A's go away, you basically have as many 777's as you do 787's (by the end of next year) so you can see why they'd want to rationalize them.

On the good side, this just might mean that the ORD>HNL/OGG routes could go 1) away or 2) to 78J. Terrible experience on those so it would be welcome.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 3:50 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Does this mean no 777s from ORD, IAD, and IAH Doing long haul flying?

Essentially no. Will there be a few oddball routes? Yes.


Im guessing Asia from those cities will be served with a 788/789 then.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:12 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Does this mean no 777s from ORD, IAD, and IAH Doing long haul flying?

Essentially no. Will there be a few oddball routes? Yes.


Im guessing Asia from those cities will be served with a 788/789 then.

Pre-COVID, ORD was going to go all-787 save for ORD-GRU, ORD-HNL, ORD-OGG, and the 777HD hub-to-hub runs.

United Airlines Is Finally Bringing the Boeing 787 Back to Chicago
United will soon fly Dreamliners on all of its flights between Chicago and Asia
 
xxcr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:56 pm

they should keep the 764's and use them on the SFO/LAX-EWR as PS birds. dedicated route for the 764 like the old days when UA flew a mix of 763 and 762 on the SFO-JFK route!
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:27 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Just hypothetical thinking here, if UA is basing the 777s at EWR and SFO, what are they planning on doing with them? We will probably see around 45ish based at EWR but on what routes? Transcons? TATL? Relieve some of the congestion and put them on routes like EWR - MCO/TPA/CUN/FLL?


Don’t think in absolutes all the company is saying is for now we only see the 777 doing flying out of EWR and SFO. Not all 777 will be flying for a while. DCA and IAH will come back slowly. They will start with W rotations with SFO and EWR crews then once there is enough routes to justify a pilot base they will reopen it......sounds like 2 years.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:32 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Just hypothetical thinking here, if UA is basing the 777s at EWR and SFO, what are they planning on doing with them? We will probably see around 45ish based at EWR but on what routes? Transcons? TATL? Relieve some of the congestion and put them on routes like EWR - MCO/TPA/CUN/FLL?


Don’t think in absolutes all the company is saying is for now we only see the 777 doing flying out of EWR and SFO. Not all 777 will be flying for a while. DCA and IAH will come back slowly. They will start with W rotations with SFO and EWR crews then once there is enough routes to justify a pilot base they will reopen it......sounds like 2 years.


When I got my 45 number I took into account some 777 flying from other hubs. In total UA has 96 777s. UA plans to have more 777 crew based at EWR than SFO. When you look at the proportions it shows EWR will receive at 42-46 SFO 38-42 and the rest (11-16) will be flown through other hubs.
 
flight152
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:43 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Thanks for sharing. Lots of red flags throughout starting with the 756 fleet question.

1.) Pretty much secure what we already knew that PW 757s are done, along with the 764s. Now what happens with the remaining 752s?

2.) With the shift of 777s will EWR and SFO receive too much capacity? That’s 96 widebodies based at 2 hubs amongst 767s and 787s too.

3.) Unfortunately, something maybe we saw before this but LAX is toast. Rest In Peace.

There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from
 
United1
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:47 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Just hypothetical thinking here, if UA is basing the 777s at EWR and SFO, what are they planning on doing with them? We will probably see around 45ish based at EWR but on what routes? Transcons? TATL? Relieve some of the congestion and put them on routes like EWR - MCO/TPA/CUN/FLL?


Don’t think in absolutes all the company is saying is for now we only see the 777 doing flying out of EWR and SFO. Not all 777 will be flying for a while. DCA and IAH will come back slowly. They will start with W rotations with SFO and EWR crews then once there is enough routes to justify a pilot base they will reopen it......sounds like 2 years.


When I got my 45 number I took into account some 777 flying from other hubs. In total UA has 96 777s. UA plans to have more 777 crew based at EWR than SFO. When you look at the proportions it shows EWR will receive at 42-46 SFO 38-42 and the rest (11-16) will be flown through other hubs.


I don't have any hard information on this but I don't think UA will come out of this with 96 777s in service...maybe 73. I'm sort of expecting the 200As and the 4 200ERs that were going to be converted to HD to be parked. Keep in mind the utilization rate of the remaining 777s will be lower and I would expect to see lots of them rotate in and out of temporary storage.
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FSDan
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 6:50 pm

adamblang wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Essentially no. Will there be a few oddball routes? Yes.


Im guessing Asia from those cities will be served with a 788/789 then.

Pre-COVID, ORD was going to go all-787 save for ORD-GRU, ORD-HNL, ORD-OGG, and the 777HD hub-to-hub runs.


I'm pretty sure ORD-GRU was slated to go 787 this Fall along with ORD-HND. So that would just have left the domestic routes.

With the 777s moving mostly to SFO and EWR, I could see that freeing up some 787s from those bases to move to IAH, IAD, etc. For example, I could see SFO-ICN and SFO-PVG moving from 789s to 772s (or SFO-PVG could drop back to a single daily flight on a 77W). At EWR, perhaps 772s would take back some 78J routes like EWR-DUB, EWR-BCN, or EWR-CDG, with the 78Js moving to IAD-FRA, IAD-MUC, etc.
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sdh9
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 7:40 pm

flight152 wrote:
There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from


I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Every airplane that is in long-term storage in ROW or whatever is a candidate for retirement.

We just won't know for 18-24 months which ones truly are retired.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 7:53 pm

sdh9 wrote:
flight152 wrote:
There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from


I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Every airplane that is in long-term storage in ROW or whatever is a candidate for retirement.

We just won't know for 18-24 months which ones truly are retired.


Sorry, but that's why we have standards in financial reporting. If UA makes a decision to retire a subfleet there will be a write-down of aircraft and parts announced in an SEC filing. No carrier can pretend long-term that parked assets are unimpaired.
 
ordbosewr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 7:59 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
sdh9 wrote:
flight152 wrote:
There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from


I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Every airplane that is in long-term storage in ROW or whatever is a candidate for retirement.

We just won't know for 18-24 months which ones truly are retired.


Sorry, but that's why we have standards in financial reporting. If UA makes a decision to retire a subfleet there will be a write-down of aircraft and parts announced in an SEC filing. No carrier can pretend long-term that parked assets are unimpaired.


Your assuming that the asset has not already been fully depreciated. If it has, then there will be no charge. If the asset has a book value to the company then you are 100% correct. When the company determines that the asset no longer has value then they must write down the value.
The company does have some grey-area to operate on this topic, but it is limited.
 
smartplane
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 8:27 pm

ordbosewr wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
sdh9 wrote:

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Every airplane that is in long-term storage in ROW or whatever is a candidate for retirement.

We just won't know for 18-24 months which ones truly are retired.


Sorry, but that's why we have standards in financial reporting. If UA makes a decision to retire a subfleet there will be a write-down of aircraft and parts announced in an SEC filing. No carrier can pretend long-term that parked assets are unimpaired.


Your assuming that the asset has not already been fully depreciated. If it has, then there will be no charge. If the asset has a book value to the company then you are 100% correct. When the company determines that the asset no longer has value then they must write down the value.
The company does have some grey-area to operate on this topic, but it is limited.

Every aircraft has a book value still to depreciate, whether it's capitalised inspections, life extensions, refurbishments, engine overhauls, etc mostly written off over 6-10 years. Even geriatric aircraft flying a few hours a month will have some book value.

Every lessor and airline is busy protecting existing and new credit lines by offering more security, so unwise to show their hands regarding permanent retirements. The reality is no-one knows today. Those in the commercial aviation finance business draw their own conclusions and values, but ultimately no-one should be making go / no go lending decisions based exclusively on security.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 8:55 pm

Some ROW stored aircraft were chosen for unknown reasons, maybe heavy maint visits. But, I rather doubt the 9 739ER units that are 2014/15 builds will be retired. I think same can be said for a 2007 build Polaris GE772ER unit and 2 of the newest 763s (2002 build) recently acquired from Hawaiian and currently are in 46J Polaris configuration.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 9:16 pm

When UA makes the decision to permanently retire aircraft, it will record impairment and disposition charges. It hasn't gotten that far yet, and there's no incentive to do so yet, given the instability and uncertainty in the market. Many scenarios are being developed and worked through... some time this summer we will probably have an idea about the first round of retirements.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 9:40 pm

On choice as to what gets parked this was from an update during early April.

Storage update
Aircraft storage continues and is moving along smoothly. As of Wednesday morning, we have placed 207 aircraft into prolonged storage, and are preparing another 104 airframes to be taken out of service at least for the time being. In addition to the company sites we’ve used since starting this program, we continue to add external parking locations as our parking needs increase.
We are working closely with our Network Planning team to understand future fleet needs and accordingly, putting aircraft to prolonged storage, mostly at external sites, if there is no need for them in the short-term, or if the AC, engines, APU or gear are coming up on time limits or a heavy check is due soon. Most of the stored aircraft at internal sites are in active storage to ensure faster return to service once the demand picks up.
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sdh9
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 10:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
sdh9 wrote:
flight152 wrote:
There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from


I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Every airplane that is in long-term storage in ROW or whatever is a candidate for retirement.

We just won't know for 18-24 months which ones truly are retired.


Sorry, but that's why we have standards in financial reporting. If UA makes a decision to retire a subfleet there will be a write-down of aircraft and parts announced in an SEC filing. No carrier can pretend long-term that parked assets are unimpaired.


Of course a publicly traded company will disclose the necessary items to the government and the investors. My point is that it is way too soon to say whether or not a fleet, or even individual tails, will or will not be retired. We will have much more clarity later.
 
nonrevelite
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 12:18 am

flight152 wrote:
There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from


There seems to be lots of airline / travel bloggers out there with a lot of time on their hands and not much else to write about. One was being interviewed on a local radio show; the host thought he was ridiculous, ended the interview, and apologized to the listeners for having him on.
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 12:27 am

codc10 wrote:
When UA makes the decision to permanently retire aircraft, it will record impairment and disposition charges. It hasn't gotten that far yet, and there's no incentive to do so yet, given the instability and uncertainty in the market. Many scenarios are being developed and worked through... some time this summer we will probably have an idea about the first round of retirements.

It seems to be less practiced nowadays, but some planes should be put into long term storage. Virgin Atlantic found it helpful that they had access to their parked A346's when they had the 787 RR problems. Hopefully, UA doesn't have any plans to scrap any planes. I feel like, given the rapid nature of all this, it is unlikely that a large number of planes are conveniently able to be returned to lessors, so the only reason to officially get rid of any planes, permanently, is if they have a buyer, like FedEx. None of us know how quickly travel will return. From what I've been hearing, May and June are exceeding some expectations.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 4:46 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Thanks for sharing. Lots of red flags throughout starting with the 756 fleet question.

1.) Pretty much secure what we already knew that PW 757s are done, along with the 764s. Now what happens with the remaining 752s?


And what about the 753s?

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Thanks for sharing. Lots of red flags throughout starting with the 756 fleet question.

2.) With the shift of 777s will EWR and SFO receive too much capacity? That’s 96 widebodies based at 2 hubs amongst 767s and 787s too.


Is it certain that UAL will keep flying the 96 777s? I wouldn't bet on that.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
DC8FanJet
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 4:18 pm

I could see all the P&W 777-200 & 200ers parked to standardize the long haul fleet with GE engines. The 767-300s with the Polaris heavy configuration may be the exception in the short term.
 
LHA320
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 4:27 pm

DC8FanJet wrote:
I could see all the P&W 777-200 & 200ers parked to standardize the long haul fleet with GE engines. The 767-300s with the Polaris heavy configuration may be the exception in the short term.


But all the 763s are equipped with PW engines and haven't they phased out the 764 also because it has GE engines as an odd ball?
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x1234
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 4:36 pm

I'm wondering when the last 77E ex-CO is going into mod. They almost got all the 777's modded. The GE 777's from ex-CO have higher payload and range than the 77E UA PW. This is only good on routes at the edge of the 777 range like EWR/ORD-HKG.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 5:02 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Is it certain that UAL will keep flying the 96 777s? I wouldn't bet on that.


The betting man in me says all 19 777-200A are toast. There are also about 15 1997/98-build 777-222ER and 6 1998 777-224ER approaching replacement.

That roughly halves the 777-200 fleet. Take out 16 767-400s, and another half-dozen or so 767-300ERs, add in the 787-9/10 coming on property, and the widebody fleet in ~2022 is down around 44 frames. Potential deferral of existing orders could increase that to 60 or so.
Last edited by codc10 on Thu May 14, 2020 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DC8FanJet
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 5:05 pm

LHA320 wrote:
DC8FanJet wrote:
I could see all the P&W 777-200 & 200ers parked to standardize the long haul fleet with GE engines. The 767-300s with the Polaris heavy configuration may be the exception in the short term.


But all the 763s are equipped with PW engines and haven't they phased out the 764 also because it has GE engines as an odd ball?


True, but the 764s haven't had the Polaris investments. I think eventually the only long range aircraft in the fleet will be 787s, and the GE -200er & 300ers.
The 788s can cover the 763 markets once they get Polaris.
 
Pinto
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 5:23 pm

DC8FanJet wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
DC8FanJet wrote:
I could see all the P&W 777-200 & 200ers parked to standardize the long haul fleet with GE engines. The 767-300s with the Polaris heavy configuration may be the exception in the short term.


But all the 763s are equipped with PW engines and haven't they phased out the 764 also because it has GE engines as an odd ball?


True, but the 764s haven't had the Polaris investments. I think eventually the only long range aircraft in the fleet will be 787s, and the GE -200er & 300ers.
The 788s can cover the 763 markets once they get Polaris.


The 788s can't cover the 763 market. Way more 763s the 788s
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 6:00 pm

Company has already communicated that the 763ER will remain in the fleet for the intermediate term.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 8:53 pm

I show that UA has only 4 leased 777-200s - No 772As, ERs: PW N223UA, GE N77012, N78013 and non-Polaris N77014. Depending on when the leases expired, UA should probably dump 1999 N77014 and consider dumping N223UA/N77012/N78013.

Regarding other 772s, some of the 772A units are newer than some 772ER units. Retirements may depend on heavy maintenance due dates.

Since I'm guessing each 772A saves about $150k annually on landing fee savings vs. a 772ER, they are already in Domestic configuration and I'm sure at least close to fully paid/depreciated, it might make sense to keep them flying as an inexpensive way to provide domestic seats. Six are 2000 build while the rest are 1995/96.

Maybe commonality and other factors could overcome the landing fee savings of the 772A, but it seems to be a bit of overkill to retire them to fly a 7,000nm range aircraft on hub-to-hub services.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 9:21 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
I show that UA has only 4 leased 777-200s - No 772As, ERs: PW N223UA, GE N77012, N78013 and non-Polaris N77014. Depending on when the leases expired, UA should probably dump 1999 N77014 and consider dumping N223UA/N77012/N78013.

Regarding other 772s, some of the 772A units are newer than some 772ER units. Retirements may depend on heavy maintenance due dates.

Since I'm guessing each 772A saves about $150k annually on landing fee savings vs. a 772ER, they are already in Domestic configuration and I'm sure at least close to fully paid/depreciated, it might make sense to keep them flying as an inexpensive way to provide domestic seats. Six are 2000 build while the rest are 1995/96.

Maybe commonality and other factors could overcome the landing fee savings of the 772A, but it seems to be a bit of overkill to retire them to fly a 7,000nm range aircraft on hub-to-hub services.


Can always derate a 77E to 77A spec.
 
UA444
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 9:25 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
I show that UA has only 4 leased 777-200s - No 772As, ERs: PW N223UA, GE N77012, N78013 and non-Polaris N77014. Depending on when the leases expired, UA should probably dump 1999 N77014 and consider dumping N223UA/N77012/N78013.

Regarding other 772s, some of the 772A units are newer than some 772ER units. Retirements may depend on heavy maintenance due dates.

Since I'm guessing each 772A saves about $150k annually on landing fee savings vs. a 772ER, they are already in Domestic configuration and I'm sure at least close to fully paid/depreciated, it might make sense to keep them flying as an inexpensive way to provide domestic seats. Six are 2000 build while the rest are 1995/96.

Maybe commonality and other factors could overcome the landing fee savings of the 772A, but it seems to be a bit of overkill to retire them to fly a 7,000nm range aircraft on hub-to-hub services.


Can always derate a 77E to 77A spec.

A lot more different than just that.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 9:36 pm

I don't yet agree with those that quickly write off the 772As. Disregarding maintenance status for a moment, the A units perform a unique role that no other aircraft in the fleet can cover well. Sure, you could temporarily throw surplus 787s, 767s, and international 777s in place of the 772A, but the configurations are not ideal for the mission (the 78X and low-J 763s aren't terrible though, but they're crucial for other missions too), and since we're talking a short-term environment where reducing trip cost is key, the international 777s are even worse. I see the -ER fleet getting pared down harder than the A fleet. That's the true excess/expensive/older capacity in the fleet that can be replaced by other aircraft. The new interior is a sunk cost. Hurts to retire it, but it has to be essentially ignored.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 9:39 pm

UA444 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
I show that UA has only 4 leased 777-200s - No 772As, ERs: PW N223UA, GE N77012, N78013 and non-Polaris N77014. Depending on when the leases expired, UA should probably dump 1999 N77014 and consider dumping N223UA/N77012/N78013.

Regarding other 772s, some of the 772A units are newer than some 772ER units. Retirements may depend on heavy maintenance due dates.

Since I'm guessing each 772A saves about $150k annually on landing fee savings vs. a 772ER, they are already in Domestic configuration and I'm sure at least close to fully paid/depreciated, it might make sense to keep them flying as an inexpensive way to provide domestic seats. Six are 2000 build while the rest are 1995/96.

Maybe commonality and other factors could overcome the landing fee savings of the 772A, but it seems to be a bit of overkill to retire them to fly a 7,000nm range aircraft on hub-to-hub services.


Can always derate a 77E to 77A spec.

A lot more different than just that.


It's something SQ has been doing for years, sure the 77E would for sure be carrying around a little extra weight but landing fees and such would equal a 77A due to the weight restriction. Do tell if there is anything makes this undesirable. I personally think the 78X is better suited for this but we all have our thoughts.
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 11:59 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
I don't yet agree with those that quickly write off the 772As. Disregarding maintenance status for a moment, the A units perform a unique role that no other aircraft in the fleet can cover well. Sure, you could temporarily throw surplus 787s, 767s, and international 777s in place of the 772A, but the configurations are not ideal for the mission (the 78X and low-J 763s aren't terrible though, but they're crucial for other missions too), and since we're talking a short-term environment where reducing trip cost is key, the international 777s are even worse. I see the -ER fleet getting pared down harder than the A fleet. That's the true excess/expensive/older capacity in the fleet that can be replaced by other aircraft. The new interior is a sunk cost. Hurts to retire it, but it has to be essentially ignored.


The 77A’s don’t make any sense on hub to hub routes when not constrained by a shortage of narrow bodies. On a fuel basis they essentially burn what two 739ER’s would and carry just less than double the pax. It’s better to fly two narrow bodies (or only one If demand is light) than the 77A.

The only place they make sense are ORD/IAH/DEN-Hawaii since the narrowbodies don’t have the range. Assuming you can fill them, their CASM is quite better than 767 (non 76L) which would be the next logistic choice. Also, they make some sense from SFO to Hawaii due to ability to carry premium freight.

HNL-GUM also makes some sense on the HD 777 config.

The HD 77E config can also cover IAD/EWR to Hawaii and take significant freight. With the 764’s going bye-bye, they’re probably the only aircraft other than the 30J 767’s that could work. The 78J would work decently well from a seating breakdown perspective but the scheduling isn’t ideal.

I’m not sure whether it makes sense to convert more 77E’s into the new HD config for standardization (the seating is quite different from the two 77A configs) or just keep the A’s models that are newest / most time remaining.

Since the conversations usually occur during a heavy check, and most of the seats already exist, the cost to convert is rather minimal.

I would expect the HD 77E will get some paper derates to reduce landing costs and potentially engine maintenance cost.

They’d need just 10-12 frames to cover the Hawaii flying. Half the current fleet ...

The other 77A’s should be goners or at least sit in long term storage for a while.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1607
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 9:22 am

Okcflyer wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
I don't yet agree with those that quickly write off the 772As. Disregarding maintenance status for a moment, the A units perform a unique role that no other aircraft in the fleet can cover well. Sure, you could temporarily throw surplus 787s, 767s, and international 777s in place of the 772A, but the configurations are not ideal for the mission (the 78X and low-J 763s aren't terrible though, but they're crucial for other missions too), and since we're talking a short-term environment where reducing trip cost is key, the international 777s are even worse. I see the -ER fleet getting pared down harder than the A fleet. That's the true excess/expensive/older capacity in the fleet that can be replaced by other aircraft. The new interior is a sunk cost. Hurts to retire it, but it has to be essentially ignored.


The 77A’s don’t make any sense on hub to hub routes when not constrained by a shortage of narrow bodies. On a fuel basis they essentially burn what two 739ER’s would and carry just less than double the pax. It’s better to fly two narrow bodies (or only one If demand is light) than the 77A.

The only place they make sense are ORD/IAH/DEN-Hawaii since the narrowbodies don’t have the range. Assuming you can fill them, their CASM is quite better than 767 (non 76L) which would be the next logistic choice. Also, they make some sense from SFO to Hawaii due to ability to carry premium freight.

HNL-GUM also makes some sense on the HD 777 config.

The HD 77E config can also cover IAD/EWR to Hawaii and take significant freight. With the 764’s going bye-bye, they’re probably the only aircraft other than the 30J 767’s that could work. The 78J would work decently well from a seating breakdown perspective but the scheduling isn’t ideal.

I’m not sure whether it makes sense to convert more 77E’s into the new HD config for standardization (the seating is quite different from the two 77A configs) or just keep the A’s models that are newest / most time remaining.

Since the conversations usually occur during a heavy check, and most of the seats already exist, the cost to convert is rather minimal.

I would expect the HD 77E will get some paper derates to reduce landing costs and potentially engine maintenance cost.

They’d need just 10-12 frames to cover the Hawaii flying. Half the current fleet ...

The other 77A’s should be goners or at least sit in long term storage for a while.


Do you think the 7x new 78J's will be in a domestic configuration for Hawaii GUM service? You'd push 350 pax I'd guess = to the 77A's and do so more efficiently.
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 10:27 am

fun2fly wrote:
Okcflyer wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
I don't yet agree with those that quickly write off the 772As. Disregarding maintenance status for a moment, the A units perform a unique role that no other aircraft in the fleet can cover well. Sure, you could temporarily throw surplus 787s, 767s, and international 777s in place of the 772A, but the configurations are not ideal for the mission (the 78X and low-J 763s aren't terrible though, but they're crucial for other missions too), and since we're talking a short-term environment where reducing trip cost is key, the international 777s are even worse. I see the -ER fleet getting pared down harder than the A fleet. That's the true excess/expensive/older capacity in the fleet that can be replaced by other aircraft. The new interior is a sunk cost. Hurts to retire it, but it has to be essentially ignored.


The 77A’s don’t make any sense on hub to hub routes when not constrained by a shortage of narrow bodies. On a fuel basis they essentially burn what two 739ER’s would and carry just less than double the pax. It’s better to fly two narrow bodies (or only one If demand is light) than the 77A.

The only place they make sense are ORD/IAH/DEN-Hawaii since the narrowbodies don’t have the range. Assuming you can fill them, their CASM is quite better than 767 (non 76L) which would be the next logistic choice. Also, they make some sense from SFO to Hawaii due to ability to carry premium freight.

HNL-GUM also makes some sense on the HD 777 config.

The HD 77E config can also cover IAD/EWR to Hawaii and take significant freight. With the 764’s going bye-bye, they’re probably the only aircraft other than the 30J 767’s that could work. The 78J would work decently well from a seating breakdown perspective but the scheduling isn’t ideal.

I’m not sure whether it makes sense to convert more 77E’s into the new HD config for standardization (the seating is quite different from the two 77A configs) or just keep the A’s models that are newest / most time remaining.

Since the conversations usually occur during a heavy check, and most of the seats already exist, the cost to convert is rather minimal.

I would expect the HD 77E will get some paper derates to reduce landing costs and potentially engine maintenance cost.

They’d need just 10-12 frames to cover the Hawaii flying. Half the current fleet ...

The other 77A’s should be goners or at least sit in long term storage for a while.


Do you think the 7x new 78J's will be in a domestic configuration for Hawaii GUM service? You'd push 350 pax I'd guess = to the 77A's and do so more efficiently.


Most probably the same config as the other 10’s. If anything, to replace 77E’s higher premium capacity, some 10’s could end up with a more premium configuration then the current. While it’ll probably happen long term, that’s doubtful near term as it’s going to be a while before companies spring for J travel. Easy cost to cut...

Hawaii flying is marginal. Stage lengths are relatively short. Best served by older aircraft where the fuel efficiency delta doesn’t add much to bottom line. Can always cease or reduce freq if market conditions are crap w/Hawaii. No slots or other regs to deal with.

The low J config that works best low-cost Hawaii doesn’t work for most international routes. Therefore dedicating new aircraft to this is high risk, Henceforth why no US3 have done it. (AA/UA/DL). For that matter, 4th-largest m Southwest just started flying there and only from West coast on 737’s. Only Hawaii is running new Widebodies and that’s mostly because they don’t have another choice.

The 78J are best used on UA’s lower premium / higher capacity international routes. 788/763 (30J) cover the lower premium lower capacity routes.

The 789/77W/76L will fly the higher premium routes due to their existing seating configs, depending on stage length and Y demand.

772’s will fill any remaining higher premium needs. Hopefully this is most of them but I’m worried that’s a pipe dream.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2859
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 1:32 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
Most probably the same config as the other 10’s. If anything, to replace 77E’s higher premium capacity, some 10’s could end up with a more premium configuration then the current. While it’ll probably happen long term, that’s doubtful near term as it’s going to be a while before companies spring for J travel. Easy cost to cut...

Hawaii flying is marginal. Stage lengths are relatively short. Best served by older aircraft where the fuel efficiency delta doesn’t add much to bottom line. Can always cease or reduce freq if market conditions are crap w/Hawaii. No slots or other regs to deal with.

The low J config that works best low-cost Hawaii doesn’t work for most international routes. Therefore dedicating new aircraft to this is high risk, Henceforth why no US3 have done it. (AA/UA/DL). For that matter, 4th-largest m Southwest just started flying there and only from West coast on 737’s. Only Hawaii is running new Widebodies and that’s mostly because they don’t have another choice.

The 78J are best used on UA’s lower premium / higher capacity international routes. 788/763 (30J) cover the lower premium lower capacity routes.

The 789/77W/76L will fly the higher premium routes due to their existing seating configs, depending on stage length and Y demand.

772’s will fill any remaining higher premium needs. Hopefully this is most of them but I’m worried that’s a pipe dream.


Didn't American utilize their 788s on there seasonal ORD-HNL flight? Prior to COVID-19 AA's intentions were to return to this market year around with a 788? Also AA if Im not mistaken flew a 788 year around on their ORD-CUN route and on Saturdays during the winter months they operated 2x 788s? Looking at UA's history UA in the past has purchased 777s and 763s for the sole purpose of flying them domestically. Of course times have changed but even with WN's entrance into the Hawaiian market prior to COVID-19 UA in 2020 was planning additional service and additional capacity to the Hawaiian islands from both DEN and SFO. The myth that WN was going to come in and take over the Hawaiian markets was just that a myth. After their initial fire sale WN's ticket prices were just as expensive as UA's and every other carrier flying to/from the mainland, the only airline that struggled against WN to/from Hawaii was AS.

That being said I think UA will take a wait and see approach to the domestic fleet. I don't see UA retiring it just yet however I do think the fleet will be in storage for some time. There are two reasons for the HD fleet the first is volume instead of running 16 EWR-SFO-EWR flights on narrow-bodies UA can run 12 with a mixture of narrow/wide-bodies. The second reason (and this is a lesson UA learned the hard way from the early years of the merger) is cargo. People keep saying "cargo isn't important" but UA did place a 764 on EWR-SJU simply to secure a cargo contract. It had nothing to do with passenger traffic at all. The only way to secure that lucrative contract was to utilize a wide-body and the shipper would not budge. Prior to COVID-19 part of the reason there were wide-bodies flying between all the hubs was to move cargo. UA which operated more international flights than either DL or AA used the domestic fleet as freighters. UA is not AA or DL if people looked at UA's quarterly reports going back a few years they will notice UA continually outperformed both AA and DL in term of the amount of cargo being shipped. Even now during the middle of COVID-19 UA is operating more weekly cargo flights than either AA or DL. United may not have dedicated freighters like some European and Asian carriers but we utilize our wide-bodies as freighters. I think UA will take a wait and see approach before making a final decision about the domestic wide-body fleet. UA Cargo has really turn things around ever since UA hired executives from both LH and KL to take over UA Cargo.
 
LGeneReese
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:36 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 5:10 pm

KVH68 wrote:
LGeneReese wrote:
789
Any have info on status of N29975, the then brand new 789 the suffered wing damage in ORD, hitting a light pole, before its first revenue flight? Is it actively being repaired at this time or parked, waiting on better times ?


That aircraft is still at ORD being repaired.

This aircraft is/was scheduled for a test hop today as UA2696/15May.... as of now it’s still on the ground...
 
wxw507
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:25 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 5:56 pm

LGeneReese wrote:
KVH68 wrote:
LGeneReese wrote:
789
Any have info on status of N29975, the then brand new 789 the suffered wing damage in ORD, hitting a light pole, before its first revenue flight? Is it actively being repaired at this time or parked, waiting on better times ?


That aircraft is still at ORD being repaired.

This aircraft is/was scheduled for a test hop today as UA2696/15May.... as of now it’s still on the ground...


Already departed, will back to ORD around 2:09 pm.
 
kd9gy
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 7:30 pm

UAL 2696 (the bird with the broken wing). Just landed back at ORD at 2:25pm local, after 1:32 flight time up to central Wisconsin for a couple loops, back down the lakefront and landed on 28C. Headed back to United hanger area for now.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5197
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 9:04 pm

jayunited wrote:
Didn't American utilize their 788s on there seasonal ORD-HNL flight? Prior to COVID-19 AA's intentions were to return to this market year around with a 788? Also AA if Im not mistaken flew a 788 year around on their ORD-CUN route and on Saturdays during the winter months they operated 2x 788s? Looking at UA's history UA in the past has purchased 777s and 763s for the sole purpose of flying them domestically. Of course times have changed but even with WN's entrance into the Hawaiian market prior to COVID-19 UA in 2020 was planning additional service and additional capacity to the Hawaiian islands from both DEN and SFO. The myth that WN was going to come in and take over the Hawaiian markets was just that a myth. After their initial fire sale WN's ticket prices were just as expensive as UA's and every other carrier flying to/from the mainland, the only airline that struggled against WN to/from Hawaii was AS.

That being said I think UA will take a wait and see approach to the domestic fleet. I don't see UA retiring it just yet however I do think the fleet will be in storage for some time. There are two reasons for the HD fleet the first is volume instead of running 16 EWR-SFO-EWR flights on narrow-bodies UA can run 12 with a mixture of narrow/wide-bodies. The second reason (and this is a lesson UA learned the hard way from the early years of the merger) is cargo. People keep saying "cargo isn't important" but UA did place a 764 on EWR-SJU simply to secure a cargo contract. It had nothing to do with passenger traffic at all. The only way to secure that lucrative contract was to utilize a wide-body and the shipper would not budge. Prior to COVID-19 part of the reason there were wide-bodies flying between all the hubs was to move cargo. UA which operated more international flights than either DL or AA used the domestic fleet as freighters. UA is not AA or DL if people looked at UA's quarterly reports going back a few years they will notice UA continually outperformed both AA and DL in term of the amount of cargo being shipped. Even now during the middle of COVID-19 UA is operating more weekly cargo flights than either AA or DL. United may not have dedicated freighters like some European and Asian carriers but we utilize our wide-bodies as freighters. I think UA will take a wait and see approach before making a final decision about the domestic wide-body fleet. UA Cargo has really turn things around ever since UA hired executives from both LH and KL to take over UA Cargo.


Thanks again for your insight. It's really great to read about how some of these network decisions are made. I was always confused why UA put such a high capacity aircraft on EWR-SJU when it was clearly giving them a subpar yield. Seems like 777s should be the best at hauling cargos. How does something like 78J compare to 772s? And do 787-8/9 haul a lot more than 764s?
 
User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 564
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 9:33 pm

United trying to resume service to China as had been rumored here before.


United Airlines Wants Back Into China But Regulatory Hurdles Remain
https://skift.com/2020/05/15/united-air ... es-remain/

Hopes to offer SFO-China starting June 20th.
I fly your boxes
 
AA94
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 10:19 pm

On today's town hall, someone asked specifically about the PW 752 and 764 fleets, and we got perhaps the clearest answer to date from Nocella. He said both fleets would be put in storage for the foreseeable future, but that UA would like to get the 764 fleet back up and running at some point assuming circumstances allow. He was less positive about the PW 752s, which sounded like they might not come back except under the best of circumstances.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1607
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 10:21 pm

tphuang wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Didn't American utilize their 788s on there seasonal ORD-HNL flight? Prior to COVID-19 AA's intentions were to return to this market year around with a 788? Also AA if Im not mistaken flew a 788 year around on their ORD-CUN route and on Saturdays during the winter months they operated 2x 788s? Looking at UA's history UA in the past has purchased 777s and 763s for the sole purpose of flying them domestically. Of course times have changed but even with WN's entrance into the Hawaiian market prior to COVID-19 UA in 2020 was planning additional service and additional capacity to the Hawaiian islands from both DEN and SFO. The myth that WN was going to come in and take over the Hawaiian markets was just that a myth. After their initial fire sale WN's ticket prices were just as expensive as UA's and every other carrier flying to/from the mainland, the only airline that struggled against WN to/from Hawaii was AS.

That being said I think UA will take a wait and see approach to the domestic fleet. I don't see UA retiring it just yet however I do think the fleet will be in storage for some time. There are two reasons for the HD fleet the first is volume instead of running 16 EWR-SFO-EWR flights on narrow-bodies UA can run 12 with a mixture of narrow/wide-bodies. The second reason (and this is a lesson UA learned the hard way from the early years of the merger) is cargo. People keep saying "cargo isn't important" but UA did place a 764 on EWR-SJU simply to secure a cargo contract. It had nothing to do with passenger traffic at all. The only way to secure that lucrative contract was to utilize a wide-body and the shipper would not budge. Prior to COVID-19 part of the reason there were wide-bodies flying between all the hubs was to move cargo. UA which operated more international flights than either DL or AA used the domestic fleet as freighters. UA is not AA or DL if people looked at UA's quarterly reports going back a few years they will notice UA continually outperformed both AA and DL in term of the amount of cargo being shipped. Even now during the middle of COVID-19 UA is operating more weekly cargo flights than either AA or DL. United may not have dedicated freighters like some European and Asian carriers but we utilize our wide-bodies as freighters. I think UA will take a wait and see approach before making a final decision about the domestic wide-body fleet. UA Cargo has really turn things around ever since UA hired executives from both LH and KL to take over UA Cargo.


Thanks again for your insight. It's really great to read about how some of these network decisions are made. I was always confused why UA put such a high capacity aircraft on EWR-SJU when it was clearly giving them a subpar yield. Seems like 777s should be the best at hauling cargos. How does something like 78J compare to 772s? And do 787-8/9 haul a lot more than 764s?


If it was confusing why UA did it from EWR, why not equally as confusing when AA did it from PHL with an A330? Surely, there's something there or neither would be doing it. I've flown the EWR>SJU a few times and it's usually chock full of VFR's, so the seat count was never confusing, never knew if there was enough premium demand in business however.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2859
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 11:46 pm

fun2fly wrote:

If it was confusing why UA did it from EWR, why not equally as confusing when AA did it from PHL with an A330? Surely, there's something there or neither would be doing it. I've flown the EWR>SJU a few times and it's usually chock full of VFR's, so the seat count was never confusing, never knew if there was enough premium demand in business however.


Prior to UA using a 764 on this route we were sending 2x daily 738s. UA Cargo is setup a lot like our passenger service, in the cargo world UA has business class, premium economy, economy plus, regular economy and then basic economy. To give a small insight high priority cargo (business class) brings in the most revenue but has very strict delivery terms. If UA misses the delivery UA has to refund the entire cost to ship the cargo also this cargo has to be delivered at the same time. For example if the shipper delivers 5 PMC's to UA, UA must deliver all 5 PMC's if we fail to deliver all 5 on-time the shipment is free. Contrast that with basic economy cargo the cheapest route a shipper can take. If someone books the equivalent of basic economy UA has 7 days to deliver you shipment and the shipment can be delivered in stages meaning you may not receive it all at once.

The contract on our EWR-SJU-EWR route is with a pharmaceutical company and pharmaceuticals need to kept at a specific temperature and a narrow-body just would not do because whatever they are shipping is shipped in specialized LD3's knows as RKN's or specialized PMC's known as RAPs . These containers allow the shipper to control the temperature of the product being shipped, something you can't control on a narrow-body. I'm not sure which pharmaceutical company UA has a contract with but I do know the entire forward compartment of the 764 and 2 full length positions in the rear of the aircraft belong to this company per the contract. When you have a company willing to pay a premium for that much cargo space on a flight I don't think UA really cared if premium demand in the cabin was there because they were already getting a premium for the cargo. The only way UA would lose money on the flight was if we failed to meet the delivery time. This flight was so important and UA made so much money on this one flight that there were times UA would delay our daytime EWR-LHR flight to either steal the flight crew to work EWR-SJU-EWR. Or when the morning LHR flight was a 764 UA would steal the aircraft itself to operated EWR-SJU-EWR if no other 764s were available.

Whenever this cargo contract end I can promise you it will be the end of wide-body service on this route.

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