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codc10
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Re: Anchorage Airport Wants United To Operate ANC-SIN (With Pax)

Tue May 12, 2020 9:19 pm

Ishrion wrote:
In a response to United requesting rights to transport cargo (and potentially pax) between Hong Kong and Singapore, Anchorage Airport requests United to operate a 777-300ER flight between ANC and SIN instead.

The aircraft can take a high load, approximately 80% of passengers without a significant reduction in belly cargo capacity


Their reasoning is operating from one of United's hubs to Anchorage and then to Singapore instead of Hong Kong to Singapore isn't much longer thanks to its location, a non-stop to Singapore would benefit the economy, United can resume ANC sooner since they received exemption from the CARES Act, and the flight could allow passengers (Singaporeans) to escape the "hot and humid climate" among other reasons.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0047-0003


Wow, that was poorly-written. I don't recall a comment from ANC objecting to United's (since-denied) exemption request under CARES, proposing to defer seasonal ANC service until July 6.

Seems like a weak attempt to persuade the government into allowing cabotage for one of the several Asian carriers with major ANC operations.
 
LGeneReese
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 pm

789
N24979 First revenue flight UA863 SFOSYD 12May

Interesting that N29978, delivered a week earlier, still sitting in IAD.
 
N649DL
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:17 am

UA444 wrote:
Don’t know why they don’t just leverage Boeing’s screw ups with the MAX into more 767-300s which they wanted to buy new just two years ago but Boeing wouldn’t budge on price. Now Boeing is in deep you know what and instead of taking on a bunch of 737s that every Joe Blow on the street has heard bad things about, get the new 767s to replace some of the older ones and hold you over until a viable 757 replacement shows up.


It's rather shocking as the 764ERs are almost the same age as many of the 777s and 763s. I think it's short sighted to divided your widebody fleet only between 787-8, 787-9, 777-200, and 777-300. IIRC, all 787s don't have newer Polaris J-Class yet either. Those 763s were mostly nailed "New J" nose-to-tail so a shame they could be rumored to leave.

They should be pulling down the ERJ and aging 737s if you ask me.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:31 am

A couple pertinent Q&A from recent townhall.

Q. Going forward, what is the planned mission for the 756 fleet?
A. Our current plan is to operate solely 767-300 variant aircraft from ORD, EWR and IAH to Europe and Latin America markets. We will continue to evaluate plans for the remainder of 756 fleet as demand evolves.

Q. If DCA and IAH 777 closure are temporary, what is the definition of temporary?
A. The DCA 777 and IAH 777 categories are expected to remain closed for a least 24 months.

Q. Why is the number of 320 vs 737 lineholders for June so lopsided in most bases?
A. Network Planning is utilizing the most efficient airplanes for the current reduced travel demand. This means that we aren’t flying A320 and B737-900 aircraft in June. The bulk of flying is being done by the smaller A319s, with B737-700s being the second most-utilized sub-fleet.

Q. What is happening with all the LAX international flying with 787 base closure?
A. Based on current Network Planning forecast, LAX is unlikely to see a resumption of its long haul flying this year.

Q. Would it be feasible to convert B777 "A" models to all cargo when they come up for heavy checks, or converting some of the parked aircraft into freighters? Or could we take delivery of an all-cargo B777 directly from Boeing?
A. There is a lot of cost associated with converting current aircraft or purchasing new freighters. Additionally, the financial risk associated operating freighters is much different than our traditional model. The spike in cargo demand we are experiencing will likely not be long term trend once significant passenger flight capacity returns to the market.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:37 am

Thanks for sharing. Lots of red flags throughout starting with the 756 fleet question.

1.) Pretty much secure what we already knew that PW 757s are done, along with the 764s. Now what happens with the remaining 752s?

2.) With the shift of 777s will EWR and SFO receive too much capacity? That’s 96 widebodies based at 2 hubs amongst 767s and 787s too.

3.) Unfortunately, something maybe we saw before this but LAX is toast. Rest In Peace.
 
Sooner787
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 3:10 am

United1 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
On the Aviation Planning site, Mike Boyd is reporting in his Monday Insight column today that United has cancelled their order for B737MAX10's. Some Google searches have not turned up any confirmation, yet. You have to scroll down in his Monday rant, but he briefly mentions the cancellation.

https://www.aviationplanning.com/monday-flash-2-2-2/


It's possible but in March UA had reached an agreement with BA for compensation for the entire mess. Cancelations were not mentioned in UAs 10Q...just a reduction in price. They also mentioned on the Q1 call UA plans on taking delivery of 16 737MAXs this year and 24 next year contingent on the grounding being lifted.

I wonder if UA swapped its -10s for other smaller 737 models vs an outright cancelation.


IIRC........ United had reached a deal with Boeing to take many of the ex- Jet Airways Max 8 white tails as part of their settlement.

Plus if UA still plans on taking the A321XLR's , the Max 10 becomes unnecessary. Wonder if we'll ever see that first Max 10
prototype enter flight test. let alone ever see service to an airline?
 
UA444
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:11 am

codc10 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
Don’t know why they don’t just leverage Boeing’s screw ups with the MAX into more 767-300s which they wanted to buy new just two years ago but Boeing wouldn’t budge on price. Now Boeing is in deep you know what and instead of taking on a bunch of 737s that every Joe Blow on the street has heard bad things about, get the new 767s to replace some of the older ones and hold you over until a viable 757 replacement shows up.


Boeing balked at resuming pax 767 production, too, and I still think it strongly wants United to take on the "diet" 787-8 ordered by AA to replace its 763s.

That is one option as well. It just depends on how long the MAX stays grounded (outside of the virus). The longer it goes on, the better the odds UA can leverage a deal out of Boeing on what they want, not necessarily what Boeing wants.
 
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UPlog
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:18 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
2.) With the shift of 777s will EWR and SFO receive too much capacity? That’s 96 widebodies based at 2 hubs amongst 767s and 787s too.


Just because the crew bases are EWR and SFO does not mean the flying and thus aircraft will solely from those two hubs. United can and certainly will cover other flying from those 777 bases.

Good example is all the LAX 777 cargo flying today. Often double daily flights to Asia all covered by SFO based pilots as LAX does not have a 777 base any longer.
I fly your boxes
 
airplanedriver6
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 1:03 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Plus if UA still plans on taking the A321XLR's , the Max 10 becomes unnecessary.

Maybe, maybe not.

The MAX 10 and the XLR have similar passenger capacity but are range optimized for two different markets. The MAX 10 has transcontinental range but not transatlantic as it has the shortest range of all the MAX variants, meanwhile the longer transatlantic range of the XLR is wasted domestically. UAL doesn't need to spend $$$ for the extra performance of an XLR compared to other 321 variants (or MAXs) for domestic flying.

In the end it will come down to the strategic plan. There is not a rush as right now as I don't think the fleet guys working in Willis are thinking too hard about airplanes that have not flown yet and are just trying to ensure UAL has a plan to get to 2022.
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 1:05 pm

LAXintl wrote:
A couple pertinent Q&A from recent townhall.

Q. Going forward, what is the planned mission for the 756 fleet?
A. Our current plan is to operate solely 767-300 variant aircraft from ORD, EWR and IAH to Europe and Latin America markets. We will continue to evaluate plans for the remainder of 756 fleet as demand evolves.

Q. If DCA and IAH 777 closure are temporary, what is the definition of temporary?
A. The DCA 777 and IAH 777 categories are expected to remain closed for a least 24 months.

Q. Why is the number of 320 vs 737 lineholders for June so lopsided in most bases?
A. Network Planning is utilizing the most efficient airplanes for the current reduced travel demand. This means that we aren’t flying A320 and B737-900 aircraft in June. The bulk of flying is being done by the smaller A319s, with B737-700s being the second most-utilized sub-fleet.

Q. What is happening with all the LAX international flying with 787 base closure?
A. Based on current Network Planning forecast, LAX is unlikely to see a resumption of its long haul flying this year.

Q. Would it be feasible to convert B777 "A" models to all cargo when they come up for heavy checks, or converting some of the parked aircraft into freighters? Or could we take delivery of an all-cargo B777 directly from Boeing?
A. There is a lot of cost associated with converting current aircraft or purchasing new freighters. Additionally, the financial risk associated operating freighters is much different than our traditional model. The spike in cargo demand we are experiencing will likely not be long term trend once significant passenger flight capacity returns to the market.


How long will it take to see this reflected in the schedule?
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:22 pm

RE 321XLR vs. MAX 10,
It would make sense to have common types, so one might thing a larger XLR fleet might be worth the extra landing fees and fuel expense to "commonize" by dropping the MAX10 and buying more 321XLRs for Transcons.
However, there will probably be different seats setups for TATL and Transcon premium seating, including maybe a different J seat. Maybe even a 4 or 5 across PP cabin on TATL.
If UA was looking at more 321s, it might make more sense to buy the NEO or LR, but that adds a fleet type as well and they would duplicate the MAX9 fleet.
I like that Airbus dropped Door 2, which allows a sliding configuration that hopefully will allow mid cabin lav at the back of J/F seating.
I'm sure Boeing would be giving a screaming deal on the MAX10s due to MAX issues and it has lower operating costs/landing fees.
 
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Polot
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:27 pm

In the end UA is still planning on having a large 737-8/9 fleet, so having Max 10s really isn’t any added complication even though they are similar in size to the A321XLR, which let’s not forget is still 5 years away from delivery for UA (and 4 years away from EIS period).
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:34 pm

Does this mean no 777s from ORD, IAD, and IAH Doing long haul flying?
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
tphuang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:52 pm

I think XLR is a gateway drug for UA from Airbus. If UA likes it, they'd more willing to replace some of existing A319/320s with NEO series down the line.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 2:55 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Does this mean no 777s from ORD, IAD, and IAH Doing long haul flying?

Essentially no. Will there be a few oddball routes? Yes.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 3:16 pm

Just hypothetical thinking here, if UA is basing the 777s at EWR and SFO, what are they planning on doing with them? We will probably see around 45ish based at EWR but on what routes? Transcons? TATL? Relieve some of the congestion and put them on routes like EWR - MCO/TPA/CUN/FLL?
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 3:18 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Does this mean no 777s from ORD, IAD, and IAH Doing long haul flying?

Essentially no. Will there be a few oddball routes? Yes.


If the 77A's go away, you basically have as many 777's as you do 787's (by the end of next year) so you can see why they'd want to rationalize them.

On the good side, this just might mean that the ORD>HNL/OGG routes could go 1) away or 2) to 78J. Terrible experience on those so it would be welcome.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 3:50 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Does this mean no 777s from ORD, IAD, and IAH Doing long haul flying?

Essentially no. Will there be a few oddball routes? Yes.


Im guessing Asia from those cities will be served with a 788/789 then.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
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adamblang
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:12 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Does this mean no 777s from ORD, IAD, and IAH Doing long haul flying?

Essentially no. Will there be a few oddball routes? Yes.


Im guessing Asia from those cities will be served with a 788/789 then.

Pre-COVID, ORD was going to go all-787 save for ORD-GRU, ORD-HNL, ORD-OGG, and the 777HD hub-to-hub runs.

United Airlines Is Finally Bringing the Boeing 787 Back to Chicago
United will soon fly Dreamliners on all of its flights between Chicago and Asia
 
xxcr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 4:56 pm

they should keep the 764's and use them on the SFO/LAX-EWR as PS birds. dedicated route for the 764 like the old days when UA flew a mix of 763 and 762 on the SFO-JFK route!
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:27 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Just hypothetical thinking here, if UA is basing the 777s at EWR and SFO, what are they planning on doing with them? We will probably see around 45ish based at EWR but on what routes? Transcons? TATL? Relieve some of the congestion and put them on routes like EWR - MCO/TPA/CUN/FLL?


Don’t think in absolutes all the company is saying is for now we only see the 777 doing flying out of EWR and SFO. Not all 777 will be flying for a while. DCA and IAH will come back slowly. They will start with W rotations with SFO and EWR crews then once there is enough routes to justify a pilot base they will reopen it......sounds like 2 years.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:32 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Just hypothetical thinking here, if UA is basing the 777s at EWR and SFO, what are they planning on doing with them? We will probably see around 45ish based at EWR but on what routes? Transcons? TATL? Relieve some of the congestion and put them on routes like EWR - MCO/TPA/CUN/FLL?


Don’t think in absolutes all the company is saying is for now we only see the 777 doing flying out of EWR and SFO. Not all 777 will be flying for a while. DCA and IAH will come back slowly. They will start with W rotations with SFO and EWR crews then once there is enough routes to justify a pilot base they will reopen it......sounds like 2 years.


When I got my 45 number I took into account some 777 flying from other hubs. In total UA has 96 777s. UA plans to have more 777 crew based at EWR than SFO. When you look at the proportions it shows EWR will receive at 42-46 SFO 38-42 and the rest (11-16) will be flown through other hubs.
 
flight152
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:43 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Thanks for sharing. Lots of red flags throughout starting with the 756 fleet question.

1.) Pretty much secure what we already knew that PW 757s are done, along with the 764s. Now what happens with the remaining 752s?

2.) With the shift of 777s will EWR and SFO receive too much capacity? That’s 96 widebodies based at 2 hubs amongst 767s and 787s too.

3.) Unfortunately, something maybe we saw before this but LAX is toast. Rest In Peace.

There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from
 
United1
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 5:47 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Just hypothetical thinking here, if UA is basing the 777s at EWR and SFO, what are they planning on doing with them? We will probably see around 45ish based at EWR but on what routes? Transcons? TATL? Relieve some of the congestion and put them on routes like EWR - MCO/TPA/CUN/FLL?


Don’t think in absolutes all the company is saying is for now we only see the 777 doing flying out of EWR and SFO. Not all 777 will be flying for a while. DCA and IAH will come back slowly. They will start with W rotations with SFO and EWR crews then once there is enough routes to justify a pilot base they will reopen it......sounds like 2 years.


When I got my 45 number I took into account some 777 flying from other hubs. In total UA has 96 777s. UA plans to have more 777 crew based at EWR than SFO. When you look at the proportions it shows EWR will receive at 42-46 SFO 38-42 and the rest (11-16) will be flown through other hubs.


I don't have any hard information on this but I don't think UA will come out of this with 96 777s in service...maybe 73. I'm sort of expecting the 200As and the 4 200ERs that were going to be converted to HD to be parked. Keep in mind the utilization rate of the remaining 777s will be lower and I would expect to see lots of them rotate in and out of temporary storage.
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FSDan
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 6:50 pm

adamblang wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Essentially no. Will there be a few oddball routes? Yes.


Im guessing Asia from those cities will be served with a 788/789 then.

Pre-COVID, ORD was going to go all-787 save for ORD-GRU, ORD-HNL, ORD-OGG, and the 777HD hub-to-hub runs.


I'm pretty sure ORD-GRU was slated to go 787 this Fall along with ORD-HND. So that would just have left the domestic routes.

With the 777s moving mostly to SFO and EWR, I could see that freeing up some 787s from those bases to move to IAH, IAD, etc. For example, I could see SFO-ICN and SFO-PVG moving from 789s to 772s (or SFO-PVG could drop back to a single daily flight on a 77W). At EWR, perhaps 772s would take back some 78J routes like EWR-DUB, EWR-BCN, or EWR-CDG, with the 78Js moving to IAD-FRA, IAD-MUC, etc.
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sdh9
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 7:40 pm

flight152 wrote:
There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from


I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Every airplane that is in long-term storage in ROW or whatever is a candidate for retirement.

We just won't know for 18-24 months which ones truly are retired.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 7:53 pm

sdh9 wrote:
flight152 wrote:
There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from


I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Every airplane that is in long-term storage in ROW or whatever is a candidate for retirement.

We just won't know for 18-24 months which ones truly are retired.


Sorry, but that's why we have standards in financial reporting. If UA makes a decision to retire a subfleet there will be a write-down of aircraft and parts announced in an SEC filing. No carrier can pretend long-term that parked assets are unimpaired.
 
ordbosewr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 7:59 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
sdh9 wrote:
flight152 wrote:
There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from


I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Every airplane that is in long-term storage in ROW or whatever is a candidate for retirement.

We just won't know for 18-24 months which ones truly are retired.


Sorry, but that's why we have standards in financial reporting. If UA makes a decision to retire a subfleet there will be a write-down of aircraft and parts announced in an SEC filing. No carrier can pretend long-term that parked assets are unimpaired.


Your assuming that the asset has not already been fully depreciated. If it has, then there will be no charge. If the asset has a book value to the company then you are 100% correct. When the company determines that the asset no longer has value then they must write down the value.
The company does have some grey-area to operate on this topic, but it is limited.
 
smartplane
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 8:27 pm

ordbosewr wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
sdh9 wrote:

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Every airplane that is in long-term storage in ROW or whatever is a candidate for retirement.

We just won't know for 18-24 months which ones truly are retired.


Sorry, but that's why we have standards in financial reporting. If UA makes a decision to retire a subfleet there will be a write-down of aircraft and parts announced in an SEC filing. No carrier can pretend long-term that parked assets are unimpaired.


Your assuming that the asset has not already been fully depreciated. If it has, then there will be no charge. If the asset has a book value to the company then you are 100% correct. When the company determines that the asset no longer has value then they must write down the value.
The company does have some grey-area to operate on this topic, but it is limited.

Every aircraft has a book value still to depreciate, whether it's capitalised inspections, life extensions, refurbishments, engine overhauls, etc mostly written off over 6-10 years. Even geriatric aircraft flying a few hours a month will have some book value.

Every lessor and airline is busy protecting existing and new credit lines by offering more security, so unwise to show their hands regarding permanent retirements. The reality is no-one knows today. Those in the commercial aviation finance business draw their own conclusions and values, but ultimately no-one should be making go / no go lending decisions based exclusively on security.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 8:55 pm

Some ROW stored aircraft were chosen for unknown reasons, maybe heavy maint visits. But, I rather doubt the 9 739ER units that are 2014/15 builds will be retired. I think same can be said for a 2007 build Polaris GE772ER unit and 2 of the newest 763s (2002 build) recently acquired from Hawaiian and currently are in 46J Polaris configuration.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 9:16 pm

When UA makes the decision to permanently retire aircraft, it will record impairment and disposition charges. It hasn't gotten that far yet, and there's no incentive to do so yet, given the instability and uncertainty in the market. Many scenarios are being developed and worked through... some time this summer we will probably have an idea about the first round of retirements.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 9:40 pm

On choice as to what gets parked this was from an update during early April.

Storage update
Aircraft storage continues and is moving along smoothly. As of Wednesday morning, we have placed 207 aircraft into prolonged storage, and are preparing another 104 airframes to be taken out of service at least for the time being. In addition to the company sites we’ve used since starting this program, we continue to add external parking locations as our parking needs increase.
We are working closely with our Network Planning team to understand future fleet needs and accordingly, putting aircraft to prolonged storage, mostly at external sites, if there is no need for them in the short-term, or if the AC, engines, APU or gear are coming up on time limits or a heavy check is due soon. Most of the stored aircraft at internal sites are in active storage to ensure faster return to service once the demand picks up.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
sdh9
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed May 13, 2020 10:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
sdh9 wrote:
flight152 wrote:
There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from


I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Every airplane that is in long-term storage in ROW or whatever is a candidate for retirement.

We just won't know for 18-24 months which ones truly are retired.


Sorry, but that's why we have standards in financial reporting. If UA makes a decision to retire a subfleet there will be a write-down of aircraft and parts announced in an SEC filing. No carrier can pretend long-term that parked assets are unimpaired.


Of course a publicly traded company will disclose the necessary items to the government and the investors. My point is that it is way too soon to say whether or not a fleet, or even individual tails, will or will not be retired. We will have much more clarity later.
 
nonrevelite
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 12:18 am

flight152 wrote:
There has been zero official aircraft retirements, just long term storage of the 752 and 764’s. Not sure where everyone is getting this from


There seems to be lots of airline / travel bloggers out there with a lot of time on their hands and not much else to write about. One was being interviewed on a local radio show; the host thought he was ridiculous, ended the interview, and apologized to the listeners for having him on.
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Aircraft : Over 60 types including the B-17
Airports : Over 150
 
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cosyr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 12:27 am

codc10 wrote:
When UA makes the decision to permanently retire aircraft, it will record impairment and disposition charges. It hasn't gotten that far yet, and there's no incentive to do so yet, given the instability and uncertainty in the market. Many scenarios are being developed and worked through... some time this summer we will probably have an idea about the first round of retirements.

It seems to be less practiced nowadays, but some planes should be put into long term storage. Virgin Atlantic found it helpful that they had access to their parked A346's when they had the 787 RR problems. Hopefully, UA doesn't have any plans to scrap any planes. I feel like, given the rapid nature of all this, it is unlikely that a large number of planes are conveniently able to be returned to lessors, so the only reason to officially get rid of any planes, permanently, is if they have a buyer, like FedEx. None of us know how quickly travel will return. From what I've been hearing, May and June are exceeding some expectations.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2101
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 4:46 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Thanks for sharing. Lots of red flags throughout starting with the 756 fleet question.

1.) Pretty much secure what we already knew that PW 757s are done, along with the 764s. Now what happens with the remaining 752s?


And what about the 753s?

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Thanks for sharing. Lots of red flags throughout starting with the 756 fleet question.

2.) With the shift of 777s will EWR and SFO receive too much capacity? That’s 96 widebodies based at 2 hubs amongst 767s and 787s too.


Is it certain that UAL will keep flying the 96 777s? I wouldn't bet on that.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
DC8FanJet
Posts: 214
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 4:18 pm

I could see all the P&W 777-200 & 200ers parked to standardize the long haul fleet with GE engines. The 767-300s with the Polaris heavy configuration may be the exception in the short term.
 
LHA320
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 4:27 pm

DC8FanJet wrote:
I could see all the P&W 777-200 & 200ers parked to standardize the long haul fleet with GE engines. The 767-300s with the Polaris heavy configuration may be the exception in the short term.


But all the 763s are equipped with PW engines and haven't they phased out the 764 also because it has GE engines as an odd ball?
AB6 - A319 - A320 - A321 - A333 - A388 - AT42 - 733 - 734 - 735 - 73H - 738 - 752 - 753 - 763 - 772 - DC10 - MD83
 
x1234
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 4:36 pm

I'm wondering when the last 77E ex-CO is going into mod. They almost got all the 777's modded. The GE 777's from ex-CO have higher payload and range than the 77E UA PW. This is only good on routes at the edge of the 777 range like EWR/ORD-HKG.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 5:02 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Is it certain that UAL will keep flying the 96 777s? I wouldn't bet on that.


The betting man in me says all 19 777-200A are toast. There are also about 15 1997/98-build 777-222ER and 6 1998 777-224ER approaching replacement.

That roughly halves the 777-200 fleet. Take out 16 767-400s, and another half-dozen or so 767-300ERs, add in the 787-9/10 coming on property, and the widebody fleet in ~2022 is down around 44 frames. Potential deferral of existing orders could increase that to 60 or so.
Last edited by codc10 on Thu May 14, 2020 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DC8FanJet
Posts: 214
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 5:05 pm

LHA320 wrote:
DC8FanJet wrote:
I could see all the P&W 777-200 & 200ers parked to standardize the long haul fleet with GE engines. The 767-300s with the Polaris heavy configuration may be the exception in the short term.


But all the 763s are equipped with PW engines and haven't they phased out the 764 also because it has GE engines as an odd ball?


True, but the 764s haven't had the Polaris investments. I think eventually the only long range aircraft in the fleet will be 787s, and the GE -200er & 300ers.
The 788s can cover the 763 markets once they get Polaris.
 
Pinto
Posts: 60
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 5:23 pm

DC8FanJet wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
DC8FanJet wrote:
I could see all the P&W 777-200 & 200ers parked to standardize the long haul fleet with GE engines. The 767-300s with the Polaris heavy configuration may be the exception in the short term.


But all the 763s are equipped with PW engines and haven't they phased out the 764 also because it has GE engines as an odd ball?


True, but the 764s haven't had the Polaris investments. I think eventually the only long range aircraft in the fleet will be 787s, and the GE -200er & 300ers.
The 788s can cover the 763 markets once they get Polaris.


The 788s can't cover the 763 market. Way more 763s the 788s
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 6:00 pm

Company has already communicated that the 763ER will remain in the fleet for the intermediate term.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 8:53 pm

I show that UA has only 4 leased 777-200s - No 772As, ERs: PW N223UA, GE N77012, N78013 and non-Polaris N77014. Depending on when the leases expired, UA should probably dump 1999 N77014 and consider dumping N223UA/N77012/N78013.

Regarding other 772s, some of the 772A units are newer than some 772ER units. Retirements may depend on heavy maintenance due dates.

Since I'm guessing each 772A saves about $150k annually on landing fee savings vs. a 772ER, they are already in Domestic configuration and I'm sure at least close to fully paid/depreciated, it might make sense to keep them flying as an inexpensive way to provide domestic seats. Six are 2000 build while the rest are 1995/96.

Maybe commonality and other factors could overcome the landing fee savings of the 772A, but it seems to be a bit of overkill to retire them to fly a 7,000nm range aircraft on hub-to-hub services.
 
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ikolkyo
Posts: 3000
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 9:21 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
I show that UA has only 4 leased 777-200s - No 772As, ERs: PW N223UA, GE N77012, N78013 and non-Polaris N77014. Depending on when the leases expired, UA should probably dump 1999 N77014 and consider dumping N223UA/N77012/N78013.

Regarding other 772s, some of the 772A units are newer than some 772ER units. Retirements may depend on heavy maintenance due dates.

Since I'm guessing each 772A saves about $150k annually on landing fee savings vs. a 772ER, they are already in Domestic configuration and I'm sure at least close to fully paid/depreciated, it might make sense to keep them flying as an inexpensive way to provide domestic seats. Six are 2000 build while the rest are 1995/96.

Maybe commonality and other factors could overcome the landing fee savings of the 772A, but it seems to be a bit of overkill to retire them to fly a 7,000nm range aircraft on hub-to-hub services.


Can always derate a 77E to 77A spec.
 
UA444
Posts: 2998
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 9:25 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
I show that UA has only 4 leased 777-200s - No 772As, ERs: PW N223UA, GE N77012, N78013 and non-Polaris N77014. Depending on when the leases expired, UA should probably dump 1999 N77014 and consider dumping N223UA/N77012/N78013.

Regarding other 772s, some of the 772A units are newer than some 772ER units. Retirements may depend on heavy maintenance due dates.

Since I'm guessing each 772A saves about $150k annually on landing fee savings vs. a 772ER, they are already in Domestic configuration and I'm sure at least close to fully paid/depreciated, it might make sense to keep them flying as an inexpensive way to provide domestic seats. Six are 2000 build while the rest are 1995/96.

Maybe commonality and other factors could overcome the landing fee savings of the 772A, but it seems to be a bit of overkill to retire them to fly a 7,000nm range aircraft on hub-to-hub services.


Can always derate a 77E to 77A spec.

A lot more different than just that.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 9:36 pm

I don't yet agree with those that quickly write off the 772As. Disregarding maintenance status for a moment, the A units perform a unique role that no other aircraft in the fleet can cover well. Sure, you could temporarily throw surplus 787s, 767s, and international 777s in place of the 772A, but the configurations are not ideal for the mission (the 78X and low-J 763s aren't terrible though, but they're crucial for other missions too), and since we're talking a short-term environment where reducing trip cost is key, the international 777s are even worse. I see the -ER fleet getting pared down harder than the A fleet. That's the true excess/expensive/older capacity in the fleet that can be replaced by other aircraft. The new interior is a sunk cost. Hurts to retire it, but it has to be essentially ignored.
 
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ikolkyo
Posts: 3000
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 9:39 pm

UA444 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
I show that UA has only 4 leased 777-200s - No 772As, ERs: PW N223UA, GE N77012, N78013 and non-Polaris N77014. Depending on when the leases expired, UA should probably dump 1999 N77014 and consider dumping N223UA/N77012/N78013.

Regarding other 772s, some of the 772A units are newer than some 772ER units. Retirements may depend on heavy maintenance due dates.

Since I'm guessing each 772A saves about $150k annually on landing fee savings vs. a 772ER, they are already in Domestic configuration and I'm sure at least close to fully paid/depreciated, it might make sense to keep them flying as an inexpensive way to provide domestic seats. Six are 2000 build while the rest are 1995/96.

Maybe commonality and other factors could overcome the landing fee savings of the 772A, but it seems to be a bit of overkill to retire them to fly a 7,000nm range aircraft on hub-to-hub services.


Can always derate a 77E to 77A spec.

A lot more different than just that.


It's something SQ has been doing for years, sure the 77E would for sure be carrying around a little extra weight but landing fees and such would equal a 77A due to the weight restriction. Do tell if there is anything makes this undesirable. I personally think the 78X is better suited for this but we all have our thoughts.
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 686
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu May 14, 2020 11:59 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
I don't yet agree with those that quickly write off the 772As. Disregarding maintenance status for a moment, the A units perform a unique role that no other aircraft in the fleet can cover well. Sure, you could temporarily throw surplus 787s, 767s, and international 777s in place of the 772A, but the configurations are not ideal for the mission (the 78X and low-J 763s aren't terrible though, but they're crucial for other missions too), and since we're talking a short-term environment where reducing trip cost is key, the international 777s are even worse. I see the -ER fleet getting pared down harder than the A fleet. That's the true excess/expensive/older capacity in the fleet that can be replaced by other aircraft. The new interior is a sunk cost. Hurts to retire it, but it has to be essentially ignored.


The 77A’s don’t make any sense on hub to hub routes when not constrained by a shortage of narrow bodies. On a fuel basis they essentially burn what two 739ER’s would and carry just less than double the pax. It’s better to fly two narrow bodies (or only one If demand is light) than the 77A.

The only place they make sense are ORD/IAH/DEN-Hawaii since the narrowbodies don’t have the range. Assuming you can fill them, their CASM is quite better than 767 (non 76L) which would be the next logistic choice. Also, they make some sense from SFO to Hawaii due to ability to carry premium freight.

HNL-GUM also makes some sense on the HD 777 config.

The HD 77E config can also cover IAD/EWR to Hawaii and take significant freight. With the 764’s going bye-bye, they’re probably the only aircraft other than the 30J 767’s that could work. The 78J would work decently well from a seating breakdown perspective but the scheduling isn’t ideal.

I’m not sure whether it makes sense to convert more 77E’s into the new HD config for standardization (the seating is quite different from the two 77A configs) or just keep the A’s models that are newest / most time remaining.

Since the conversations usually occur during a heavy check, and most of the seats already exist, the cost to convert is rather minimal.

I would expect the HD 77E will get some paper derates to reduce landing costs and potentially engine maintenance cost.

They’d need just 10-12 frames to cover the Hawaii flying. Half the current fleet ...

The other 77A’s should be goners or at least sit in long term storage for a while.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1618
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri May 15, 2020 9:22 am

Okcflyer wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
I don't yet agree with those that quickly write off the 772As. Disregarding maintenance status for a moment, the A units perform a unique role that no other aircraft in the fleet can cover well. Sure, you could temporarily throw surplus 787s, 767s, and international 777s in place of the 772A, but the configurations are not ideal for the mission (the 78X and low-J 763s aren't terrible though, but they're crucial for other missions too), and since we're talking a short-term environment where reducing trip cost is key, the international 777s are even worse. I see the -ER fleet getting pared down harder than the A fleet. That's the true excess/expensive/older capacity in the fleet that can be replaced by other aircraft. The new interior is a sunk cost. Hurts to retire it, but it has to be essentially ignored.


The 77A’s don’t make any sense on hub to hub routes when not constrained by a shortage of narrow bodies. On a fuel basis they essentially burn what two 739ER’s would and carry just less than double the pax. It’s better to fly two narrow bodies (or only one If demand is light) than the 77A.

The only place they make sense are ORD/IAH/DEN-Hawaii since the narrowbodies don’t have the range. Assuming you can fill them, their CASM is quite better than 767 (non 76L) which would be the next logistic choice. Also, they make some sense from SFO to Hawaii due to ability to carry premium freight.

HNL-GUM also makes some sense on the HD 777 config.

The HD 77E config can also cover IAD/EWR to Hawaii and take significant freight. With the 764’s going bye-bye, they’re probably the only aircraft other than the 30J 767’s that could work. The 78J would work decently well from a seating breakdown perspective but the scheduling isn’t ideal.

I’m not sure whether it makes sense to convert more 77E’s into the new HD config for standardization (the seating is quite different from the two 77A configs) or just keep the A’s models that are newest / most time remaining.

Since the conversations usually occur during a heavy check, and most of the seats already exist, the cost to convert is rather minimal.

I would expect the HD 77E will get some paper derates to reduce landing costs and potentially engine maintenance cost.

They’d need just 10-12 frames to cover the Hawaii flying. Half the current fleet ...

The other 77A’s should be goners or at least sit in long term storage for a while.


Do you think the 7x new 78J's will be in a domestic configuration for Hawaii GUM service? You'd push 350 pax I'd guess = to the 77A's and do so more efficiently.

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