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Okcflyer
Posts: 686
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 8:52 am

LAXintl wrote:
Planned July longhaul schedule.

ATLANTIC
EWR - AMS/CDG/DUB/FRA/LHR/TLV
IAD - BRU/FRA/LHR/MUC/TLV/ZRH
ORD - LHR
SFO - DEL

PACIFIC
EWR - NRT
HKG - SIN
ORD - HND
SFO - HKG/ICN/NRT/SYD

LATIN
IAH - EZE/GRU/LIM

Not all services daily. Many 3-4 weekly.


Is your list widebody only?

What about IAH-BOG/UIO/PTY/SAL ?
 
airboss787
Posts: 275
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 9:23 am

LAXintl wrote:
Planned July longhaul schedule.

ATLANTIC
EWR - AMS/CDG/DUB/FRA/LHR/TLV
IAD - BRU/FRA/LHR/MUC/TLV/ZRH
ORD - LHR
SFO - DEL

PACIFIC
EWR - NRT
HKG - SIN
ORD - HND
SFO - HKG/ICN/NRT/SYD

LATIN
IAH - EZE/GRU/LIM

Not all services daily. Many 3-4 weekly.


Wasn’t EWR-DEL supposed to start in July as well. 6th to be exact?
Star Alliance Gold
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 12:32 pm

airboss787 wrote:
Wasn’t EWR-DEL supposed to start in July as well. 6th to be exact?


No I think EWR-India is scheduled to resume later in the year probably closer to fall. I'm hearing UA wants to resume SFO-DEL early for the same reason we want back into China, it is about business travel.

dcajet wrote:
Not sure how they plan to fly to Latin America. Argentina's closed until Sept 1st. Peru continues to be closed too. Brazil, should be open in July, but the current ban on travel may be extended. American just delayed all Brazil travel until Aug 17th,


United never ceased service to Brazil our IAH-GRU flight has continued throughout the entire crisis. American pushing back their resumption date has no barring on United. What I find interesting is United stayed while American the market leader temporarily suspended all service to Brazil. To be honest I though the roles would be reversed, AA would continue service to Brazil while UA temporarily walks away. It is a rarity to see the weakest airline in the market maintain service while the market leader suspends all service.

Argentina and Peru are still closed as you correctly pointed out but this remains a fluid situation and who know those countries may change their re-opening date. Even though AA has not stated when they plan on resuming service to Argentina they are planning on resuming service to Peru in July.
 
atlflyer
Posts: 730
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:13 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 1:17 pm

UAinAUS wrote:
788:
Looks like the 788 fleet will be returning to Polaris mods immediately
N28912 - scheduled to ferry XMN 2Jun for Polaris/PE mod
N26910 - scheduled to ferry XMN 2Jun for Polaris/PE mod


Nice to see some good news.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 1:36 pm

Just wondering if UA might be in better position than AA and DL when demand returns.

International will definitely affect UA due to their higher percentage of international service, especially Asia. However, UA has not operated really any services from a non-UA hub to anywhere internationally. DL has numerous non-DL hub flights to especially Sky Team destinations and one would expect these are more vulnerable than UA's hub to international services. Not sure about AAs non-AA hub to international service levels.
Big factors will be the strength of Star, One World and Sky Team alliances. UA is probably the least of the Big 3 to be dependent on their global alliance.

Domestic:
1.) UA has been short of narrowbodies, which means downsizing fits UA better than the other airlines
2.) UA flies virtually no non-hub to non-hub services, meaning UA can trim hubs back by a certain percentage while DL/AA will have to additionally cut those non-hub to non-hub flights more drastically or remove most all together. This should downsize DL/AA faster.
I know there are some stats on how much flying each major flies outside their hub network, but I've not been able to find that info by percentage on the internet.
3.) UA's hubs have been established for years. DL has hubs with more recent buildups SEA/BOS along with former full hub CVG being reduced.
4.) JFK is much more internationally aligned than EWR and AA/DL should have more trouble re-establishing domestic demand, especially when DL and AA have competing LGA market services. UA's demand at EWR may show reduced demand from LGA, but not to the extent that JFK could.
5.) One would expect UA to fight to reinstate hub services at all hubs except maybe LAX. DL/AA may have to wait to reinstate services to JFK(AA/DL), SEA(DL), BOS(DL), CVG(DL), ORD(AA, being second place).
 
jplatts
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 4:24 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
International will definitely affect UA due to their higher percentage of international service, especially Asia. However, UA has not operated really any services from a non-UA hub to anywhere internationally.

Domestic:
2.) UA flies virtually no non-hub to non-hub services, meaning UA can trim hubs back by a certain percentage while DL/AA will have to additionally cut those non-hub to non-hub flights more drastically or remove most all together. This should downsize DL/AA faster.


While CLE is no longer a hub for UA, UA currently has CLE-FLL, CLE-RSW, and CLE-MCO nonstop service showing up in its Spring 2021 flight schedules.

UA also operates HNL-NRT nonstop service, even with HNL not being a hub for UA, but NRT is a hub for UA's TPAC partner NH.

UA also operates the HNL-MAJ-KWA-TSA-PNI-TKK-GUM Island Hopper route between Hawaii, Micronesia, and Guam, even though HNL, MAJ, KWA, TSA, PNI, and TKK are not UA hubs.

Is UA likely to drop CLE-FLL/RSW/MCO nonstop service or HNL-NRT nonstop service?
 
sldispatcher
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:55 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 7:22 pm

First up they need to restore some hub-hub connections in their banks.
 
United1
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 7:54 pm

sldispatcher wrote:
First up they need to restore some hub-hub connections in their banks.


UA is....there is an uptick this month in hub-hub flights and I'm sure July will have even more.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
dcajet
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 8:38 pm

jayunited wrote:

dcajet wrote:
Not sure how they plan to fly to Latin America. Argentina's closed until Sept 1st. Peru continues to be closed too. Brazil, should be open in July, but the current ban on travel may be extended. American just delayed all Brazil travel until Aug 17th,


United never ceased service to Brazil our IAH-GRU flight has continued throughout the entire crisis. American pushing back their resumption date has no barring on United. What I find interesting is United stayed while American the market leader temporarily suspended all service to Brazil. To be honest I though the roles would be reversed, AA would continue service to Brazil while UA temporarily walks away. It is a rarity to see the weakest airline in the market maintain service while the market leader suspends all service.

Argentina and Peru are still closed as you correctly pointed out but this remains a fluid situation and who know those countries may change their re-opening date. Even though AA has not stated when they plan on resuming service to Argentina they are planning on resuming service to Peru in July.


Yes, I am aware UA has been operating a 767 IAH-GRU rotation - pretty much empty I hear. Will they continue doing so with the ban on Brazilians and anybody who has been to Brazil entering the US, that began this week? That is what I was referring to - that ban made AA push back its return to Brazil until 8/17. IATA's pressuring Argentina to reopen to traffic but I doubt the government will give in. Peru will be closed until September too - and so will Colombia.

https://aviacionline.com/2020/05/nueva- ... argentina/
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 9:05 pm

Ishrion wrote:
So they're going through with restoring the fifth-freedom flight? Nice to see, assuming the route gets approval which I don't think it has yet?
And plans for PEK/PVG/CTU in June have been slashed?


HKG-SIN commenced already earlier in May.

China passenger service awaits Chinese approval. Cargo service continues to all 3 cities.

Okcflyer wrote:
Is your list widebody only?
What about IAH-BOG/UIO/PTY/SAL ?


Its the longhaul list.

Host of Mexico/Caribbean/Central America are slated to return also, though I suspect not all will fly as the situation on the ground is still fluid in many locations.

airboss787 wrote:
Wasn’t EWR-DEL supposed to start in July as well. 6th to be exact?


Pending govt approval EWR-DEL could resume as early as July 17th, but still TBA

dcajet wrote:
Yes, I am aware UA has been operating a 767 IAH-GRU rotation - pretty much empty I hear. Will they continue doing so with the ban on Brazilians and anybody who has been to Brazil entering the US, that began this week? That is what I was referring to - that ban made AA push back its return to Brazil until 8/17. IATA's pressuring Argentina to reopen to traffic but I doubt the government will give in. Peru will be closed until September too - and so will Colombia.


IAH-GRU has been a 787-9, and yes its slated to continue. U.S. citizens, residents, and a long list of other exemptions are still allowed to travel from Brazil per the Presidental Proclamation.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
United1
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 9:07 pm

dcajet wrote:

Yes, I am aware UA has been operating a 767 IAH-GRU rotation - pretty much empty I hear. Will they continue doing so with the ban on Brazilians and anybody who has been to Brazil entering the US, that began this week? That is what I was referring to - that ban made AA push back its return to Brazil until 8/17. IATA's pressuring Argentina to reopen to traffic but I doubt the government will give in. Peru will be closed until September too - and so will Colombia.

https://aviacionline.com/2020/05/nueva- ... argentina/


UA is flying a 789 not a 763..

Anecdotal I know but today IAH-GRU there are 23 in Polaris, 8 in Premium Plus and 101 scheduled to fly in the back. Considering the current challenges it doesn't seem to be that empty and that is with US travel ban in place.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
dcajet
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 9:10 pm

United1 wrote:
dcajet wrote:


Yes, I am aware UA has been operating a 767 IAH-GRU rotation - pretty much empty I hear. Will they continue doing so with the ban on Brazilians and anybody who has been to Brazil entering the US, that began this week? That is what I was referring to - that ban made AA push back its return to Brazil until 8/17. IATA's pressuring Argentina to reopen to traffic but I doubt the government will give in. Peru will be closed until September too - and so will Colombia.

https://aviacionline.com/2020/05/nueva- ... argentina/


UA is flying a 789 not a 763..

Anecdotal I know but today IAH-GRU there are 23 in Polaris, 8 in Premium Plus and 101 scheduled to fly in the back. Considering the current challenges it doesn't seem to be that empty and that is with US travel ban in place.


Not bad. When you are the only game in town....
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
sldispatcher
Posts: 411
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 9:16 pm

United1 wrote:
sldispatcher wrote:
First up they need to restore some hub-hub connections in their banks.


UA is....there is an uptick this month in hub-hub flights and I'm sure July will have even more.


Just as an example, check out June 30 schedule IAH-SFO

And I would guess DEN and ORD will lead the way in restoration of banks?

Spent 5 hours in a layover in DEN yesterday. Extremely quiet in airport and our group of 10 was about 1/3 of the United Club business.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 11:25 pm

dcajet wrote:
Yes, I am aware UA has been operating a 767 IAH-GRU rotation - pretty much empty I hear. Will they continue doing so with the ban on Brazilians and anybody who has been to Brazil entering the US, that began this week? That is what I was referring to - that ban made AA push back its return to Brazil until 8/17. IATA's pressuring Argentina to reopen to traffic but I doubt the government will give in. Peru will be closed until September too - and so will Colombia.

https://aviacionline.com/2020/05/nueva- ... argentina/



The ban that you are referring to only applies to Brazilians not US citizens and the ban which just went into effect more than 2 months into this crisis still does not explain why the weakest carrier on the US-Brazil market continued to fly while the market leader AA suspended all service.

Every one has a different definition of empty, but UA is using a 789 (have been using 787s for the past 4 weeks) and the flight while not full 100% full is not empty either.

Don't take my comments the wrong way I'm not attacking AA, it is just a rarity we don't see all a market leader temporarily suspends all flights while the weakest continues to operate.
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 686
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat May 30, 2020 11:41 pm

jayunited wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Yes, I am aware UA has been operating a 767 IAH-GRU rotation - pretty much empty I hear. Will they continue doing so with the ban on Brazilians and anybody who has been to Brazil entering the US, that began this week? That is what I was referring to - that ban made AA push back its return to Brazil until 8/17. IATA's pressuring Argentina to reopen to traffic but I doubt the government will give in. Peru will be closed until September too - and so will Colombia.

https://aviacionline.com/2020/05/nueva- ... argentina/



The ban that you are referring to only applies to Brazilians not US citizens and the ban which just went into effect more than 2 months into this crisis still does not explain why the weakest carrier on the US-Brazil market continued to fly while the market leader AA suspended all service.

Every one has a different definition of empty, but UA is using a 789 (have been using 787s for the past 4 weeks) and the flight while not full 100% full is not empty either.

Don't take my comments the wrong way I'm not attacking AA, it is just a rarity we don't see all a market leader temporarily suspends all flights while the weakest continues to operate.


Maybe UA has a key cargo contract? A belly of freight could bring $50k revenue. Only need a few pax to keep the route from bleeding money like crazy.

Edit: have no idea, just spitting out an idea
 
dcajet
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 12:00 am

jayunited wrote:
dcajet wrote:
Yes, I am aware UA has been operating a 767 IAH-GRU rotation - pretty much empty I hear. Will they continue doing so with the ban on Brazilians and anybody who has been to Brazil entering the US, that began this week? That is what I was referring to - that ban made AA push back its return to Brazil until 8/17. IATA's pressuring Argentina to reopen to traffic but I doubt the government will give in. Peru will be closed until September too - and so will Colombia.

https://aviacionline.com/2020/05/nueva- ... argentina/



The ban that you are referring to only applies to Brazilians not US citizens and the ban which just went into effect more than 2 months into this crisis still does not explain why the weakest carrier on the US-Brazil market continued to fly while the market leader AA suspended all service.

Every one has a different definition of empty, but UA is using a 789 (have been using 787s for the past 4 weeks) and the flight while not full 100% full is not empty either.

Don't take my comments the wrong way I'm not attacking AA, it is just a rarity we don't see all a market leader temporarily suspends all flights while the weakest continues to operate.


No worries - not taking anything the wrong way! It is puzzling as to why AA left all markets in South America without service, when they could have carried on with service to Chile and Brazil, as those countries did not have bans as Argentina et al did. I m sure there is a good reason as to why.

A propos, do you know when United plans to return to GIG from IAH? For years I've read that route was a very good performer on account of the oil industry traffic.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 1:18 am

dcajet wrote:
United1 wrote:
dcajet wrote:


Yes, I am aware UA has been operating a 767 IAH-GRU rotation - pretty much empty I hear. Will they continue doing so with the ban on Brazilians and anybody who has been to Brazil entering the US, that began this week? That is what I was referring to - that ban made AA push back its return to Brazil until 8/17. IATA's pressuring Argentina to reopen to traffic but I doubt the government will give in. Peru will be closed until September too - and so will Colombia.

https://aviacionline.com/2020/05/nueva- ... argentina/


UA is flying a 789 not a 763..

Anecdotal I know but today IAH-GRU there are 23 in Polaris, 8 in Premium Plus and 101 scheduled to fly in the back. Considering the current challenges it doesn't seem to be that empty and that is with US travel ban in place.


Not bad. When you are the only game in town....


With All due respect, did you really think there would be multiple carriers on routes like IAH-DFW/ATL/IAD-GRU?
Last edited by LAXdude1023 on Sun May 31, 2020 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
dcajet
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 2:27 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
dcajet wrote:
United1 wrote:

UA is flying a 789 not a 763..

Anecdotal I know but today IAH-GRU there are 23 in Polaris, 8 in Premium Plus and 101 scheduled to fly in the back. Considering the current challenges it doesn't seem to be that empty and that is with US travel ban in place.


Not bad. When you are the only game in town....


With All due respect, did you really think there would be multiple carriers on routes like IAH-DFW/ATL/IAD-GRU?


Hold on, that is not what I meant. United is the only airline (*) currently flying between Sao Paulo GRU and the US: they are the only game in town no matter where in the US one's heading.

(*) Azul still flies to FLL & MCO from VCP
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 12:54 pm

dcajet wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
dcajet wrote:

Not bad. When you are the only game in town....


With All due respect, did you really think there would be multiple carriers on routes like IAH-DFW/ATL/IAD-GRU?


Hold on, that is not what I meant. United is the only airline (*) currently flying between Sao Paulo GRU and the US: they are the only game in town no matter where in the US one's heading.

(*) Azul still flies to FLL & MCO from VCP


Ahhh. Sorry I misunderstood you.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 2:42 pm

788:
N26910 sked to enter HKG Polaris /PP mod 2726/31May, guess at RTS 7/16/20
N28912 sked to enter HKG Polaris/PP mod 2728/31May, guess at RTS 7/16/20
All 787 previous Polaris mods done at XMN - will there be a learning curve at HKG?
 
fun2fly
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 2:56 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
788:
N26910 sked to enter HKG Polaris /PP mod 2726/31May, guess at RTS 7/16/20
N28912 sked to enter HKG Polaris/PP mod 2728/31May, guess at RTS 7/16/20
All 787 previous Polaris mods done at XMN - will there be a learning curve at HKG?


This is a good sign for UA to continue on with this program. Does it hint that the the 243 seat 788 is the replacement of the 240 seat 764?
 
redrooster3
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 3:45 pm

fun2fly wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
788:
N26910 sked to enter HKG Polaris /PP mod 2726/31May, guess at RTS 7/16/20
N28912 sked to enter HKG Polaris/PP mod 2728/31May, guess at RTS 7/16/20
All 787 previous Polaris mods done at XMN - will there be a learning curve at HKG?


This is a good sign for UA to continue on with this program. Does it hint that the the 243 seat 788 is the replacement of the 240 seat 764?


It may be too late consider 3 or 4 of the 788s are in a low J/High Y layout primarily for leisure markets (SFO-PPT.) Whereas, the 764s have 11 more J seats to work with in current configuration. It was suppose to drop to 34 once polarisized. So I think they may make a short term replacement for similar seat count, its not a direct replacement overall. Unless UA orders more 788s.
Marry one of us, and you'll fly for free!
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 3:50 pm

Very surprised the July schedule didn’t come out today. Did something happen or are they just waiting another week?
 
United1
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 4:23 pm

redrooster3 wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
788:
N26910 sked to enter HKG Polaris /PP mod 2726/31May, guess at RTS 7/16/20
N28912 sked to enter HKG Polaris/PP mod 2728/31May, guess at RTS 7/16/20
All 787 previous Polaris mods done at XMN - will there be a learning curve at HKG?


This is a good sign for UA to continue on with this program. Does it hint that the the 243 seat 788 is the replacement of the 240 seat 764?


It may be too late consider 3 or 4 of the 788s are in a low J/High Y layout primarily for leisure markets (SFO-PPT.) Whereas, the 764s have 11 more J seats to work with in current configuration. It was suppose to drop to 34 once polarisized. So I think they may make a short term replacement for similar seat count, its not a direct replacement overall. Unless UA orders more 788s.


SFO-PPT is a leisure market but it (was at least) a fairly high yielding one. UA can fill the Polaris seats on that one. I don't disagree with the general thought UA may need to look at some of its cabin configurations.

With Kirbys (and some of the other C level folks as well) talk about keeping aircraft longer it sounds like they plan on keeping the 763s around for a while. Anyone else think they might look at the High-J and Lo-J configurations and come up with common Polaris/PP/Y configuration?
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
ericm2031
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 4:26 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Very surprised the July schedule didn’t come out today. Did something happen or are they just waiting another week?


It’s planned for next weekend, as they did international this week. They’re trying not to do both at the same time to not overload their IT systems and call centers.
 
sldispatcher
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 6:43 pm

How does a profit making cargo run become a loss maker when you start adding passengers?
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 6:57 pm

sldispatcher wrote:
How does a profit making cargo run become a loss maker when you start adding passengers?


Once you start adding passengers you now need space for their bags, so valuable space is lost.

Also with passengers onboard you can not have any cargo in the cabin. At the current shipping rates loading cargo in the cabin generates quite a bit of revenue.

Now one might ask why not just re-create a dedicated cargo fleet? The answer is simple supply and demand. As supply returns cargo rates will inevitably come down and for an airline like UA it becomes increasingly difficult to make money utilizing a dedicated cargo fleet when rates are low.
 
LGeneReese
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun May 31, 2020 7:01 pm

jayunited wrote:
Kirby gave an interview yesterday and UA's situation is slowly improving although we still have a long way to go.


Also in terms of new aircraft delivery Kirby stated beyond the new airplanes UA is locked into (787s and MAX) it will be a while before UA takes delivery of any new jets. Looking at previous statements I think that means UA will take delivery of aircraft on the books through 2021, anything beyond 2021 that will probably be deferred. (UA already announced they would only be taking half of their original MAX order the remainder has been deferred). Also he eluded to the fact that UA will stop taking delivery of slightly used aircraft instead UA will keep most of our older aircraft because it is the less risky financial decision. Not sure what this means for UA's A321XLR order although Q4 2024 is still a ways away.

https://skift.com/2020/05/28/new-united ... dle-seats/

So does this mean the plan for the EasyJet A319s and Southwest 73Gs is hold/dead or are they a locked in deal?
 
UA857
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Is the 777-200ER redundant at UA?

Sun May 31, 2020 8:07 pm

With Delta retiring 777s and AA retiring some 77Es is UA going to follow by retiring some 77E? Prior to the crisis it seams like the 77W, 788, 789 and 78J are doing most of the 77E´s international routes and also prior to COVID-19 UA had planned to open a 787 base at ORD. Do you think the 77Es redundant at UA?
 
jayunited
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Re: Is the 777-200ER redundant at UA?

Sun May 31, 2020 8:41 pm

UA857 wrote:
With Delta retiring 777s and AA retiring some 77Es is UA going to follow by retiring some 77E? Prior to the crisis it seams like the 77W, 788, 789 and 78J are doing most of the 77E´s international routes and also prior to COVID-19 UA had planned to open a 787 base at ORD. Do you think the 77Es redundant at UA?



I know this thread encompasses quite a few topics and is 41 pages long. I also understand over the past 8 weeks this thread has probably added at least 15 pages worth of content but your question about UA's 77Es has been asked and answered multiple times in this very thread.

Not trying to be disrespectful or mean, I'm just saying even though it can be time consuming sometimes you can find the answer to a question just by reading the previous pages in the same thread.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:22 pm

The fleet changes, fleet status, and repaint status posts at the start of this thread have been updated.

There is also a post dedicated to keeping track of stored mainline aircraft.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
BNAMealer
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:12 pm

Could UA possibly convert their A350 order to a A321neo/A220 order, to be delivered when things turn around? I saw somewhere on here that was suggested. UA will need more narrowbody aircraft when demand recovers.
 
airplanedriver6
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:44 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Could UA possibly convert their A350 order to a A321neo/A220 order, to be delivered when things turn around? I saw somewhere on here that was suggested. UA will need more narrowbody aircraft when demand recovers.

Anything is possible.

Remember that it has been reported that the complicating issue with the A350 order is the corresponding, but separate, purchase agreement for the engines and the associated maintenance agreement with Rolls. UAL would not just be negotiating with Airbus to change the order and Rolls does not offer an engine for the 320/220.

The original A350 order from 2009(!) has been revised several times for sub-type, quantity, and delivery dates but it has always remained an order for A350s.
Last edited by airplanedriver6 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
United1
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:46 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Could UA possibly convert their A350 order to a A321neo/A220 order, to be delivered when things turn around? I saw somewhere on here that was suggested. UA will need more narrowbody aircraft when demand recovers.


Could they sure assuming Airbus would agree to it. Will they...probably no need too really as UA has plenty of MAXes on order.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
x1234
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:16 am

Will we see post-Corona a risky route like SFO-MNL? I read a few months back UA was possibly interested in it. I know they say the Philippines is low yielding but there is substantial tech and BPO traffic on both sides.
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:25 am

x1234 wrote:
Will we see post-Corona a risky route like SFO-MNL?

Eventually? Maybe. Anytime soon? Not a chance.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B772/E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

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KFTG
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:43 am

Post-Corona?
 
Okcflyer
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:53 am

What are your (everyone) thoughts on the 76L fleet? I’m thinking it’ll stay in current config. The intended TATL routes (London, Geneva) don’t appear to be the part of the market that’s going to be heavily effected by reduced front seat traffic.

They’re ideal to mix in on EWR-LAX/SFO. With the PW757’s out, these are likely to eventually need more J seats cost effectively, and the 76L should have the lowest cost per J seat of the fleet (likely less than 16J 757).

Your thoughts?
 
ILikeTrains
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:57 am

They are late-90s build planes, so a good amount of life left. They have brand new cabins, and they are cheap to fly. I wouldn’t doubt them sticking till end of decade.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:54 pm

The 76L is more premium heavy than the 752PW units with 64% more F seats and 15 fewer E+/Y seats (76L has 22 PP seats). I could see some use on Transcons, but the majority of use for the 76L would seems to be for LHR. If there is a demand drop TATL on LHR/other premium routes, maybe shifting a few of the 17 76Ls to Transcon could make sense and possibly increase utilization. Such a change could mean fewer 78X flights Transcon.
If N674UA gets Polaris, UA should consider changing the configuration from the planned 76L to the 30J configuration.

UA is playing it smart by not committing to removal of 767s as their ownership cost should be low to keep them parked and resale value is negligible. As for the 764 fleet, parked is fine. The 764 fleet could become a non-Polaris Transcon/Hawaii aircraft, get Polaris or potential sold to someone like FedEx as a freighter conversion to replace their 40 year old MD10-10s.

Depending on lease terms, I'd expect 772GE N77014 has the lease terminated instead of receiving Polaris. UA has only 3 other 772 leases and all are already in Polaris configuration.

Due to fairly easy conversion of the remaining ITPE 772PW units to domestic units, it would make sense for these three 2001 units to be parked for a while, then converted to domestic for longer Hawaii flights and retirement for a total of 4 1995/96 build 772A units.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:48 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:
The 76L is more premium heavy than the 752PW units with 64% more F seats and 15 fewer E+/Y seats (76L has 22 PP seats). I could see some use on Transcons, but the majority of use for the 76L would seems to be for LHR. If there is a demand drop TATL on LHR/other premium routes, maybe shifting a few of the 17 76Ls to Transcon could make sense and possibly increase utilization. Such a change could mean fewer 78X flights Transcon.
If N674UA gets Polaris, UA should consider changing the configuration from the planned 76L to the 30J configuration.


Don't quote me on this, but I would not be surprised if a lower J + PE LOPA is being studied if TATL premium demand stays in the tank and meaningful recovery is not predicted for more than a year. Something like 27J/18W/39Y+/138Y. I think it would make sense to reconfigure instead of flying around an airplane intended for a market which no longer exists.
 
strfyr51
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:32 pm

codc10 wrote:
CALTECH wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
you could be right however? I suspect that you're wrong. the 737-700's and maybe non ETOPS 737's might be leaving if any are. the A319;s all have the range to fly conus to HNL and all over the Americas. North to south. they can be the backbone of the returning passenger traffic domestically until we need larger airplanes on a daily basis.


All 737s are ETOPS.
No A-319/320 are ETOPS.

airmec7 wrote:
All 737’s are ETOPS and no 319 is over water certified. Only a small handful of 320 are over water certified.


Do not see any Airbus aircraft ETOPS certified.
All 737s are ETOPS as you stated.


Some 320s have rafts for EOW operations in the Caribbean but no ETOPS.

It's not like the A319's couldn't be certified for ETOPS. I don't think right now that any airline in the USA has ETOPS certified A319's.. But? I do not doubt it could be done, As the airplane could make it to Europe from the USA in off peak operations. And US east coast to Alaska. I have no idea who might do it though the A319-132's United bought from China Eastern have the power and range to BE ETOPS airplanes. but I doubt United would do it with the sheer number of ETOPS 737's they have already especially with the -9's waiting in the wings to return to service or to be delivered. I think that there might be a real Fire Sale happening when Boeing begins to deliver those MAX airplanes as many have already bowed out on their deliveries..
 
N649DL
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:29 pm

codc10 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
The 76L is more premium heavy than the 752PW units with 64% more F seats and 15 fewer E+/Y seats (76L has 22 PP seats). I could see some use on Transcons, but the majority of use for the 76L would seems to be for LHR. If there is a demand drop TATL on LHR/other premium routes, maybe shifting a few of the 17 76Ls to Transcon could make sense and possibly increase utilization. Such a change could mean fewer 78X flights Transcon.
If N674UA gets Polaris, UA should consider changing the configuration from the planned 76L to the 30J configuration.


Don't quote me on this, but I would not be surprised if a lower J + PE LOPA is being studied if TATL premium demand stays in the tank and meaningful recovery is not predicted for more than a year. Something like 27J/18W/39Y+/138Y. I think it would make sense to reconfigure instead of flying around an airplane intended for a market which no longer exists.


IIRC, I thought they had plans to dump a handful of the 763ERs that never got Polaris conversions (a few ex-3 class variants even got the old sCO BF seat with completely new Y interiors installed but have no winglets). Perhaps now UA changed their mind and are keeping all the 763s variants around for a while?

Some 320s have rafts for EOW operations in the Caribbean but no ETOPS.[/quote]
It's not like the A319's couldn't be certified for ETOPS. I don't think right now that any airline in the USA has ETOPS certified A319's.. But? I do not doubt it could be done, As the airplane could make it to Europe from the USA in off peak operations. And US east coast to Alaska. I have no idea who might do it though the A319-132's United bought from China Eastern have the power and range to BE ETOPS airplanes. but I doubt United would do it with the sheer number of ETOPS 737's they have already especially with the -9's waiting in the wings to return to service or to be delivered. I think that there might be a real Fire Sale happening when Boeing begins to deliver those MAX airplanes as many have already bowed out on their deliveries..[/quote]

Air Canada has been doing this for years with flying the A319 on St. John's (and perhaps YHZ) to LHR. I'll bet AA could try something like this as they tried some long hauls with their new 319 on DFW to South America like BOG, IIRC. I think their new L-AA 319 have some form of ETOPS, definitely not the ex-US ones though.
Last edited by N649DL on Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
codc10
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:35 pm

N649DL wrote:
codc10 wrote:
calpsafltskeds wrote:
The 76L is more premium heavy than the 752PW units with 64% more F seats and 15 fewer E+/Y seats (76L has 22 PP seats). I could see some use on Transcons, but the majority of use for the 76L would seems to be for LHR. If there is a demand drop TATL on LHR/other premium routes, maybe shifting a few of the 17 76Ls to Transcon could make sense and possibly increase utilization. Such a change could mean fewer 78X flights Transcon.
If N674UA gets Polaris, UA should consider changing the configuration from the planned 76L to the 30J configuration.


Don't quote me on this, but I would not be surprised if a lower J + PE LOPA is being studied if TATL premium demand stays in the tank and meaningful recovery is not predicted for more than a year. Something like 27J/18W/39Y+/138Y. I think it would make sense to reconfigure instead of flying around an airplane intended for a market which no longer exists.


IIRC, I thought they had plans to dump a handful of the 763ERs that never got Polaris conversions (a few ex-3 class variants even got the old sCO BF seat with completely new Y interiors installed but have no winglets). Perhaps now UA changed their mind and are keeping all the 763s variants around for a while?


With regard to a configuration change, I could see some of the 76L fleet going to a smaller J cabin if LHR/ZRH/GVA/FRA premium demand projects to be impaired for an extended (multiyear) period.

Scott Kirby has said they have no plans to retire any fleets at the moment, and would prefer to keep airplanes in long-term storage to provide the optionality to add capacity if demand returns. Eventually, some decisions will have to be made, but for now, it appears all but the 28J 752s (75K, one of which just hit its 31st anniversary of delivery) will remain "technically" in the fleet, albeit parked, for now.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:49 pm

codc10 wrote:
With regard to a configuration change, I could see some of the 76L fleet going to a smaller J cabin if LHR/ZRH/GVA/FRA premium demand projects to be impaired for an extended (multiyear) period.

Scott Kirby has said they have no plans to retire any fleets at the moment, and would prefer to keep airplanes in long-term storage to provide the optionality to add capacity if demand returns. Eventually, some decisions will have to be made, but for now, it appears all but the 28J 752s (75K, one of which just hit its 31st anniversary of delivery) will remain "technically" in the fleet, albeit parked, for now.


I think you are correct UA will take a wait and see approach. I think premium demand will remain surpressed until there is an effective therapeutic and/or a vaccine. The question is can United wait that long, can we hold out long enough to get a clear picture of how the recovery, or will our financial position force UA to act sooner than what Kirby would like?
 
FR24Virus
Posts: 5
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:15 am

calpsafltskeds wrote:
788:
N26910 sked to enter HKG Polaris /PP mod 2726/31May, guess at RTS 7/16/20
N28912 sked to enter HKG Polaris/PP mod 2728/31May, guess at RTS 7/16/20
All 787 previous Polaris mods done at XMN - will there be a learning curve at HKG?


Yea, they both end up in XMN. Those cargo flights are sure confusing but at least they are getting Polaris.
 
ordbosewr
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:41 pm

jayunited wrote:
codc10 wrote:
With regard to a configuration change, I could see some of the 76L fleet going to a smaller J cabin if LHR/ZRH/GVA/FRA premium demand projects to be impaired for an extended (multiyear) period.

Scott Kirby has said they have no plans to retire any fleets at the moment, and would prefer to keep airplanes in long-term storage to provide the optionality to add capacity if demand returns. Eventually, some decisions will have to be made, but for now, it appears all but the 28J 752s (75K, one of which just hit its 31st anniversary of delivery) will remain "technically" in the fleet, albeit parked, for now.


I think you are correct UA will take a wait and see approach. I think premium demand will remain surpressed until there is an effective therapeutic and/or a vaccine. The question is can United wait that long, can we hold out long enough to get a clear picture of how the recovery, or will our financial position force UA to act sooner than what Kirby would like?


I think premium demand will be depressed for some time. I work at a fortune 500 company and I do not see any major plans to large scale travel by our employees. We have a large number of folks who typically travel every week and so far the majority of them are still working from home (our customers do not want them on-site yet either). That is going to be the largest hurdle to getting premium demand back.

I think it is smart position to say that no decision is needed unless that decision can directly attribute to significant cost reductions. For example, what DL did to retire all 777's is tangible to reduce complexity in the company.
If UA feels they won't retire ALL of the same fleet type is there really any reason to make that decision now? Not really, if UA is going to keep any sub-fleet then they should wait to make any decision.
I do wonder, what the costs are for storage? I now the largest cost is any lease or payments for the aircraft themselves, if present, but I wonder if the cost of putting in storage, maintaining them in storage and then returning to service is significant in the decisions or is it a rounding error in the decision process?.
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:30 pm

ordbosewr wrote:

I think it is smart position to say that no decision is needed unless that decision can directly attribute to significant cost reductions. For example, what DL did to retire all 777's is tangible to reduce complexity in the company.
If UA feels they won't retire ALL of the same fleet type is there really any reason to make that decision now? Not really, if UA is going to keep any sub-fleet then they should wait to make any decision.
I do wonder, what the costs are for storage? I now the largest cost is any lease or payments for the aircraft themselves, if present, but I wonder if the cost of putting in storage, maintaining them in storage and then returning to service is significant in the decisions or is it a rounding error in the decision process?.



We are not talking about retiring any particular fleet type we are talking about reducing the number of premium seats on the 76L subfleet.

As I stated I agree premium or business travel will not return until there is an effective therapeutic and/or a vaccine. The question or concern raised was was does UA have to many premium seats on our premium heavy 76Ls and quite frankly across our entire widebody fleet? Without having a clear picture of how and when business travel will recover an argument could be made in favor of removing some premium seats and adding more seats in coach. However the wait and see approach also has its merits because UA does not have a clear picture. Removing business class seats and adding coach seats may seem like a no brainer now, but is it the right decision long term? Again in my opinion it all comes down to finances, does UA have the liquidity to wait for corporate travel to resume? Looking at leisure markets the recovery has begun, however business or corporate travel is still on hold and probably will remain on hold until we have an effective vaccine.

The best example I can think of is UA's pre-Covid EWR-LHR route. Pre-COVID UA made it clear their focus on this route was premium traffic with 5x daily flights UA had 230 lie flat Polaris seats in the air daily on our EWR-LHR route. Before UA switched this route over to all 76Ls we operated 4x daily 763s and 1x daily 764 for a total of 937 seats in coach. After the switch was made UA daily overall coach availability drop down to 605 seats on 5x daily 76Ls. However we went from 159 business class seats to 230 lie flat Polaris seats. In a post COVID world what Kirby and his team have to figure out is should UA reverse coarse? Should UA now (meaning in 2021) target leisure travelers in this market? Should UA begin increasing the number of seats in coach to prepare for when Europe is fully reopen (which should be in time for the IATA summer 2021 season), or should UA stay the course and wait for a clearer picture on corporate travel recovery?

The conundrum is this once UA pulls business class seats off the aircraft they will not put them back on should corporate travel recover at a faster than expected rate. Whatever decision UA makes, whichever way they decide to go UA is stuck with that decision until a all new Polaris business class seat debuts, which probably won't happened in my opinion until 2030 at the earliest. I don't see UA pulling business class seats off now and replacing them with additional coach seats only to reverse course put the business class seats back on in 2-4 years time should corporate travel recover more robustly than we think.

My opinion is UA should wait and see but do we have enough liquidity to take the wait and see approach. Neither decision is not without risk, either decision could end up costing UA a lot of money. Until there is a vaccine or a therapeutic any decision is more like a shot in the dark without night vision goggles.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:40 pm

I talked with my friend who is a Bosch Executive and he says everyone within the company is trying to get traveling ASAP. He also said they, along with many other companies will not be waiting for a vaccine before starting to travel. Additionally, they are planning for a large conference in Germany in the Fall, in which they will all need to fly to.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:44 pm

ordbosewr wrote:

I think premium demand will be depressed for some time. I work at a fortune 500 company and I do not see any major plans to large scale travel by our employees. We have a large number of folks who typically travel every week and so far the majority of them are still working from home (our customers do not want them on-site yet either).


We've already resumed travel at our family-owned company, to the surprise of some customers. It's also been to our advantage as we were awarded a contract just yesterday; it was one that we really hadn't expected.

My point is that the companies that stay home are at risk of losing work and market share when their competitors get moving again first. Many times, there's no substitute for being there.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.

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