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alfa164
Posts: 3710
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:04 pm

DiscoverCSG wrote:
jayunited wrote:
convent connections to India

Are you suggesting that UA's new India flights will be filled with nuns?


Surely you know that India is a coveted destination for nuns.... if, indeed, they are allowed to covet anything...

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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airzim
Posts: 1453
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

To summarize
dtw2hyd wrote:
COVID19 is rationalizing routes in true sense, no funneling unnecessary traffic through preferred hub and calling it efficient.


I think this is only temporarily true. The ME3, all major airline groups in Europe (IAG, AF/KLM, LH Group, and TK) and the US majors have proven this to be mostly true in terms of scale. Not everyone can take someone from Omaha to Yangoon, but it sure helps the loads on long haul sectors with larger capacity aircraft and the flexibility to pricing leverage over more expensive point to point routing.

dtw2hyd wrote:
COVID19 busted the premium traffic myth, if there is no capacity dumping even Y yields can be decent and routes can survive without front cabin being full.


Not even remotely true. Nobody is making any money right now and certainly not in the Y cabin.

dtw2hyd wrote:
AI survived without any partners' help, it is UA's turn to survive without partners.


When was the last time AI was profitable and/or didn't get help from the GOI?

dtw2hyd wrote:
Just don't tell LH or SQ.


I'm not sure what that means?
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:38 pm

airzim wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

To summarize
dtw2hyd wrote:
COVID19 is rationalizing routes in true sense, no funneling unnecessary traffic through preferred hub and calling it efficient.


I think this is only temporarily true. The ME3, all major airline groups in Europe (IAG, AF/KLM, LH Group, and TK) and the US majors have proven this to be mostly true in terms of scale. Not everyone can take someone from Omaha to Yangoon, but it sure helps the loads on long haul sectors with larger capacity aircraft and the flexibility to pricing leverage over more expensive point to point routing.

dtw2hyd wrote:
COVID19 busted the premium traffic myth, if there is no capacity dumping even Y yields can be decent and routes can survive without front cabin being full.


Not even remotely true. Nobody is making any money right now and certainly not in the Y cabin.

dtw2hyd wrote:
AI survived without any partners' help, it is UA's turn to survive without partners.


When was the last time AI was profitable and/or didn't get help from the GOI?

dtw2hyd wrote:
Just don't tell LH or SQ.


I'm not sure what that means?


I don't think either of us are saying the ME3 or EU carriers are dead. We are just saying in the post-COVID world, US airlines are not just focusing on routes that high J traffic. UA's adds show that (even the Hawaii adds are again premium leisure nonstop). What AI showed other airlines (is not how to make money) but (1) how they could command a price premium for their nonstops over one stops by much better airlines and (2) many people prefer nonstops or connecting in their home/destination countries - both of these points work in UA's favor. Finally, the ME3 have cut back and will take time to fully come back. With efficient aircraft (like 789), weaker competition, reluctance to connect in random countries, fewer competing new routes due to lower US outbound tourism, this really is UA's time to launch.
 
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airzim
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:00 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
airzim wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

To summarize


I think this is only temporarily true. The ME3, all major airline groups in Europe (IAG, AF/KLM, LH Group, and TK) and the US majors have proven this to be mostly true in terms of scale. Not everyone can take someone from Omaha to Yangoon, but it sure helps the loads on long haul sectors with larger capacity aircraft and the flexibility to pricing leverage over more expensive point to point routing.



Not even remotely true. Nobody is making any money right now and certainly not in the Y cabin.



When was the last time AI was profitable and/or didn't get help from the GOI?



I'm not sure what that means?


I don't think either of us are saying the ME3 or EU carriers are dead. We are just saying in the post-COVID world, US airlines are not just focusing on routes that high J traffic. UA's adds show that (even the Hawaii adds are again premium leisure nonstop). What AI showed other airlines (is not how to make money) but (1) how they could command a price premium for their nonstops over one stops by much better airlines and (2) many people prefer nonstops or connecting in their home/destination countries - both of these points work in UA's favor. Finally, the ME3 have cut back and will take time to fully come back. With efficient aircraft (like 789), weaker competition, reluctance to connect in random countries, fewer competing new routes due to lower US outbound tourism, this really is UA's time to launch.


You might be over thinking this. Maybe it just shows that UA is putting some very expensive brand new assets to work anywhere where they might stop the cash burn. Leisure demand, coupled with the failure of a few players in the market might have opened up some doors that would otherwise be hard to take on. At least for now. I think the Hawaii flying is a classic example of anticipating that higher yielding vacation demand that might have gone a cruise around the Med, are now possibly going to Hawaii as an alternative. At least until the borders open and the cases remains stable.
 
jayunited
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:22 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
To summarize
COVID19 is rationalizing routes in true sense, no funneling unnecessary traffic through preferred hub and calling it efficient.
COVID19 busted the premium traffic myth, if there is no capacity dumping even Y yields can be decent and routes can survive without front cabin being full.
AI survived without any partners' help, it is UA's turn to survive without partners.
Just don't tell LH or SQ.



Quick question are you suggesting that prior to COVID the bulk of LH's premium traffic on their FRA-BLR route originated in SFO or some where else here in the US? I'm just trying to understand why you believe a UA flight would be a threat LH's flight but not the ME3? If you know the break dow in traffic between the US and Europe to BLR if you can please share it.
 
StinkyPinky
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:52 pm

How will they staff the SFO-BLR flights with speakers? Despite furloughing 5,500 FAs, will they be hiring a handful of new Kannada/Hindi FAs for this route? DH to SFO from other language bases?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:59 pm

jayunited wrote:
I'm just trying to understand why you believe a UA flight would be a threat LH's flight but not the ME3? .


I believe because of the S-word, which I am sincerely trying to avoid. Don't want a thread drift. Whatever struggles some countries have, aviation is major chunk their economies, they will not let go.
All posts are just opinions.
 
abrelosojos
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:26 pm

These are some great ads by United, and I think worth the attempt. Worst case, COVID continues, and they pull it down. SFO-BLR is a great development of their overall SFO strategy, and the IAD development is also common sense for Africa. Didn't DL have an Africa strategy with 757's flying via SID? Since then, I don't think any US airline has ambitious about Africa, and that is a pity.

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
IAHWorldflyer
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:43 pm

x1234 wrote:
Remember folks Delta flies JFK-LOS/ACC/DSS and ATL-LOS. Delta's ATL-LOS was tagged with IAH-ATL-LOS. O&D comes first and the majority of West Africans are in DC. Also ET (Ethiopian Airlines) flies from Togo to Newark.


Actually, Houston has the largest Nigerian population in the US. Houston also has a large Cameroonian community as well. The Washington area is tilted strongly towards East Africans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_ ... _residence
 
Blockplus
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:01 pm

Upgrading the engines on the 789 should help on the hot and high performance.

https://onemileatatime.com/united-airli ... BPguQEjWjg
 
FlyPNS1
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:05 pm

toga998 wrote:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/293721/united-expands-washington-dulles-domestic-routes-in-nov-2020/

This seems like a pretty safe addition for the IAD hub, especially the EYW route.


I agree that IAD-EYW is pretty safe and should do well. I'm surprised UA would bring back IAD-CAK. It seems like a far more marginal route. UA had only recently started it (before COVID) and I'm not sure it was a strong performer. But good on UA for trying to make IAD work as a hub in these difficult times.
 
Blockplus
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:05 pm

 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:26 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Remember folks Delta flies JFK-LOS/ACC/DSS and ATL-LOS. Delta's ATL-LOS was tagged with IAH-ATL-LOS. O&D comes first and the majority of West Africans are in DC. Also ET (Ethiopian Airlines) flies from Togo to Newark.


Actually, Houston has the largest Nigerian population in the US. Houston also has a large Cameroonian community as well. The Washington area is tilted strongly towards East Africans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_ ... _residence


Well, almost.

IAH is the 3rd biggest O&D market narrowly behind DC to LOS but during the oil boom years, the fares on IAH-LOS were astronomically high which is why CO launched LOS from there.

As for demographics, Houston has the 2nd largest Nigerian population in the US behind NYC. DC is not far behind Houston. The only other places worldwide with larger Nigerian populations are Johannesburg and London. Here is how the demographics break down as of 2018:

African foreign born population total:
New York - 322,051
Washington DC/Baltimore - 290,617
Minneapolis/St. Paul - 121,420
Boston/Providence - 121,220
Dallas/Fort Worth - 120,062
Atlanta - 108,061
Houston - 99,217
Los Angeles/Riverside - 99,149
Philadelphia - 80,122
Seattle/Tacoma - 64,250
San Francisco/San Jose - 61,731
Columbus, OH - 56,501
Chicago - 55,821
Phoenix - 30,503
Denver - 30,003

East African Foreign Born Population:
Washington DC/Baltimore - 95,978
Minneapolis/St. Paul - 84,922
Seattle/Tacoma - 46,301
Dallas/Fort Worth - 42,836
Atlanta - 28,717
New York - 26,241
Boston/Providence - 26,004
Columbus, OH - 23,088
Los Angeles/Riverside - 22,234
San Francisco/San Jose - 22,491
Houston - 17,409
Las Vegas - 15,541
Denver - 14,117
Portland, OR - 12,993
Phoenix - 12,488
Philadelphia - 10,335
Chicago - 9,961

West African Foreign Born Population
New York - 169,833
Washington DC/Baltimore - 122,418
Boston/Providence - 65,910 (58,000 of this is just from Cape Verde)
Houston - 55,412
Atlanta - 53,764
Philadelphia - 45,208
Dallas/Fort Worth - 35,778
Los Angeles/Riverside - 29,137
Chicago - 27,914
Minneapolis/St. Paul - 25,962
Columbus, OH - 20,727
San Francisco/Oakland - 14,297

As for Nigerians alone, here were the numbers for the top five nationwide:
New York City: 54,315
Houston: 45,386
Washington/Baltimore: 43,944
Dallas/Fort Worth: 24,812
Atlanta: 24,220

Long story short, IAD definitely makes the most sense for a route to LOS for now. Most of the Nigerians I know in Houston are pretty wed to LH for getting back and forth.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
IAHWorldflyer
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Re: Why United should establish a new TPA hub (or at least a focus city)

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:33 pm

I read through all the responses here, and have 2 points that I've not seen others make yet.
First, a common criticism of IAH is that it is too far south to capture East-West flows. If that is the case, TPA is too far south to capture intra-SE flows. It would really only funnel flights from north of Florida, to Florida destinations. CHS-MEM, or RIC-BTR are not really efficiently served going through TPA.
Second, I think the OP doesn't know how much traffic that UA actually does route over IAH, and to a lesser extent IAD, into to Southeast. Every time I'm on a MEM-IAH flight, there are a fair number of people flying MEM-IAH-Florida. It doesn't make sense to me, but UA is collecting their fare dollars, and in the end that's all that counts. Why aren't those folks on DL? I don't know. Maybe cost. Maybe the schedules. UA knows exactly how many people it is moving around the country, and to where. I suspect they are fine with not having the expense of another hub.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:35 pm

If anything would make sense it would be EWR not IAD.
 
IAHWorldflyer
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:46 pm

LAXDude, I didn't realize the DC metro had caught up that closely to Houston. When I lived up there 20 years ago, it seemed like everyone was from Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, and Kenya. A trip out to Alief in Houston shows you a thriving west African community here.
I'm curious, where did you get your numbers from?
I do agree, that IAD-LOS will be a good add for UA. For the time being, the oil traffic out of Houston is a ghost of it's former self. It will probably take at least 2-3 years to recover, if at all. Plus, if ET re-starts their service to Togo from IAH, Star Alliance will have coverage to work with.
 
Qantas744er
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:06 pm

DylanHarvey wrote:
jayunited wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Yeah that’s is true, the 787 is no doubt very capable but ok some day’s we might see blocked seats. Leaving BLR at 3,000AMSL might be harder, I remember jayunited saying cargo gets jettisoned from the 89 out of Australia on hot days. I can’t help but think but think the slight edge the 359 has would help these routes, but 789s size is valuable now when demand isn’t crazy high.


You start to see performance penalties when the temperature hits 95F/97F or 35C/36C, at those temps you are holding off at least 3,000 LBS of cargo if not more.

Then there are days when UA has had to jettison all the cargo out of SYD but only when the temperature exceeds 105F or 107F / 40C or 41.6C. If we are looking at a full pax cabin and you are talking temperatures in this range or higher in most cases you can forget about taking the cargo out of SYD or MEL in some cases the non revs have to be pulled off the aircraft. There are days during the southern hemispheres summer where even though the dispatcher has padded the temperature, 2-4 degrees in the release it isn't enough. Sydney at 10:00 is already pushing 101F/102F and the captain 20 minutes before departure will have the dispatcher rerun the flight plan with a temp of 105F because the captain knows they are going to sit on the ground after push back waiting for the runway for another 20-30 minutes, and it blows everything out of the water.

The 789 is a very capable aircraft, and it does have its limits, but it still performs a hell of a lot better than the 77E. :D

Valuable information as always. And yes the 77E was a pioneer in it’s time, but the time is now for the Dreamliner and the Airbus. How much of a difference would it make if UA had taken The higher thrust GENx? They have 72 or 73k on the 89 now right?


UA B789 have GEnx-1B74/75 ( 76,700Lbs )
UA B788 have GEnx-1B70 ( 72,300Lbs )

The highest GEnx rating available on the B789 is the -1B76A (78,500Lbs). The additional thrust would certainly help the B789 out of FAOR/JNB.
Last edited by Qantas744er on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:14 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
LAXDude, I didn't realize the DC metro had caught up that closely to Houston. When I lived up there 20 years ago, it seemed like everyone was from Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, and Kenya. A trip out to Alief in Houston shows you a thriving west African community here.
I'm curious, where did you get your numbers from?
I do agree, that IAD-LOS will be a good add for UA. For the time being, the oil traffic out of Houston is a ghost of it's former self. It will probably take at least 2-3 years to recover, if at all. Plus, if ET re-starts their service to Togo from IAH, Star Alliance will have coverage to work with.


Source is data.census.gov.

The biggest difference between NYC and DC is that DC has a MUCH more diverse African community. Look how tiny NYC's East African population is given its total African population. Along with DC, Dallas/Fort Worth and Atlanta are the most diverse within their African communities. NYC, Houston, Boston, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Seattle, Las Vegas, and Philadelphia's African communities are very heavily weighted towards one region of the continent.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
CONTACREW
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:18 pm

StinkyPinky wrote:
How will they staff the SFO-BLR flights with speakers? Despite furloughing 5,500 FAs, will they be hiring a handful of new Kannada/Hindi FAs for this route? DH to SFO from other language bases?


No UA isn’t going to hire Hindi speaking FAs after furloughing. They will either staff them out of the SFO base or just operate the flight without speakers.
Flight Attendants prepare doors for departure, cross check verify straps standby for all call
 
Airlines0613
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UA increases 789’s range.

Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:19 pm

It has been reported that UA plans to upgrade the software in a sub-fleet and eventually all 789s. This software upgrade will increase thrust and improve the fuel management systems, thus increasing the range and capabilities of the aircraft. The software update is what will allow SFO-BLR and EWR-JNB possible.

https://onemileatatime.com/united-airli ... BPguQEjWjg

What are your thoughts of such an upgrade? Was this and upgrade in conjunction with Boeing, a third party company, or on their own? Will the update then be extended to the 788 and 78X to improve their range and capabilities? Finally, will other airlines follow suit?
 
HouStrategies
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Re: Why United should establish a new TPA hub (or at least a focus city)

Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:20 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
I read through all the responses here, and have 2 points that I've not seen others make yet.
First, a common criticism of IAH is that it is too far south to capture East-West flows. If that is the case, TPA is too far south to capture intra-SE flows. It would really only funnel flights from north of Florida, to Florida destinations. CHS-MEM, or RIC-BTR are not really efficiently served going through TPA.
Second, I think the OP doesn't know how much traffic that UA actually does route over IAH, and to a lesser extent IAD, into to Southeast. Every time I'm on a MEM-IAH flight, there are a fair number of people flying MEM-IAH-Florida. It doesn't make sense to me, but UA is collecting their fare dollars, and in the end that's all that counts. Why aren't those folks on DL? I don't know. Maybe cost. Maybe the schedules. UA knows exactly how many people it is moving around the country, and to where. I suspect they are fine with not having the expense of another hub.


I think your second point might invalidate your first one ;-) It is certainly not as ideal as ATL or CLT, but it could manageably connect SE Atlantic coast to the SE Gulf coast. Like you pointed out, anything else would go thru IAD or IAH anyway. But I think that would be minor overall - the real value is tapping the 22m Florida market (I wouldn't be surprised if Florida represents more than half of the O&D flying the southeastern US) as well as being a secondary Latin America and Carribean gateway.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: Why United should establish a new TPA hub (or at least a focus city)

Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:50 pm

IAD is in Virginia which is part of the Southeast. :stirthepot: :lol:

But seriously, while it's not the optimal connecting point for say GSO to TPA, it's also only ~30min out of the way. Most price sensitive travelers (read: leisure traffic going to Florida) wouldn't even notice.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:04 pm

Blockplus wrote:


I've been off work on vacation and I'm still on vacation. This is the first I'm hearing and it is exciting news, I try to not sign into work related stuff on my time but I can't wait to find out the details of how much additional thrust UA can get out of those engines and what other enhancements will help improve improve or reduce fuel burn on our 789s.

Kirby is not sitting still at all he is making all sort of moves to get this airline ready for the future.
 
x1234
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:09 pm

I heard rumours AA wanted to add LAX-SIN, maybe this increased thrust will make LAX-SIN profitable for AA.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:43 pm

x1234 wrote:
I heard rumours AA wanted to add LAX-SIN, maybe this increased thrust will make LAX-SIN profitable for AA.


I think we can count that route out now.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:44 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
IAHWorldflyer wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Remember folks Delta flies JFK-LOS/ACC/DSS and ATL-LOS. Delta's ATL-LOS was tagged with IAH-ATL-LOS. O&D comes first and the majority of West Africans are in DC. Also ET (Ethiopian Airlines) flies from Togo to Newark.


Actually, Houston has the largest Nigerian population in the US. Houston also has a large Cameroonian community as well. The Washington area is tilted strongly towards East Africans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_ ... _residence


Well, almost.

IAH is the 3rd biggest O&D market narrowly behind DC to LOS but during the oil boom years, the fares on IAH-LOS were astronomically high which is why CO launched LOS from there.

As for demographics, Houston has the 2nd largest Nigerian population in the US behind NYC. DC is not far behind Houston. The only other places worldwide with larger Nigerian populations are Johannesburg and London. Here is how the demographics break down as of 2018:

African foreign born population total:
New York - 322,051
Washington DC/Baltimore - 290,617
Minneapolis/St. Paul - 121,420
Boston/Providence - 121,220
Dallas/Fort Worth - 120,062
Atlanta - 108,061
Houston - 99,217
Los Angeles/Riverside - 99,149
Philadelphia - 80,122
Seattle/Tacoma - 64,250
San Francisco/San Jose - 61,731
Columbus, OH - 56,501
Chicago - 55,821
Phoenix - 30,503
Denver - 30,003

East African Foreign Born Population:
Washington DC/Baltimore - 95,978
Minneapolis/St. Paul - 84,922
Seattle/Tacoma - 46,301
Dallas/Fort Worth - 42,836
Atlanta - 28,717
New York - 26,241
Boston/Providence - 26,004
Columbus, OH - 23,088
Los Angeles/Riverside - 22,234
San Francisco/San Jose - 22,491
Houston - 17,409
Las Vegas - 15,541
Denver - 14,117
Portland, OR - 12,993
Phoenix - 12,488
Philadelphia - 10,335
Chicago - 9,961

West African Foreign Born Population
New York - 169,833
Washington DC/Baltimore - 122,418
Boston/Providence - 65,910 (58,000 of this is just from Cape Verde)
Houston - 55,412
Atlanta - 53,764
Philadelphia - 45,208
Dallas/Fort Worth - 35,778
Los Angeles/Riverside - 29,137
Chicago - 27,914
Minneapolis/St. Paul - 25,962
Columbus, OH - 20,727
San Francisco/Oakland - 14,297

As for Nigerians alone, here were the numbers for the top five nationwide:
New York City: 54,315
Houston: 45,386
Washington/Baltimore: 43,944
Dallas/Fort Worth: 24,812
Atlanta: 24,220

Long story short, IAD definitely makes the most sense for a route to LOS for now. Most of the Nigerians I know in Houston are pretty wed to LH for getting back and forth.

In addition, there's the obvious fact that DC has government traffic as well. IAD has been able to support a number of seemingly unusual routes over the years (think KWI and BAH) because of diplomatic and other government related traffic. While in this case it's not capital-to-capital, it's still a direct flight to the center of west Africa. This, in addition to IAD being better for connections than IAH, having significant O&D, and being less competitive than the NYC market make IAD the pretty obvious choice.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:45 pm

Why haven’t the new flights been loaded yet?
 
Ishrion
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:50 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Why haven’t the new flights been loaded yet?


EWR-JNB needs approval from the DOT since there’s only a limited number of U.S. to South Africa frequencies available.

United requested them to expedite approval of course so they can open booking for the flights as early as possible.

As for the other six routes, I’m unsure about the logistics but I’d assume the two Hawaiian ones are easier to launch.

It’s possible they haven’t finalized schedules?
 
FSDan
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:21 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
If anything would make sense it would be EWR not IAD.


So we've got someone voting for their home airport, vs United's route planning department... Did you shoot Patrick Quayle an e-mail to let him know his team messed up?
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:00 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:

The JNB-EWR will often push a solid 16 1/2 hours. We did CPT-EWR and the flight time was 16:10. JNB-EWR is a 172 miles further. All I'm saying is that the JNB-EWR flight is no slough in terms of requirements. I'm happy to see the 787-9 can do it.

Cheers

That’s good actually. Anything above 15-16 from JNB is no slouch. The 789 and 359 Are phenomenal aircraft. Although CPT is sea level which helps cause you guys can get 254t from there, can anyone help with what the 789 is limited to MTOW wise out of JNB.



Yes, I meant 'slouch' -- typo on my part and cannot go back and fix it at this point. *I have no idea why there is a time limit on making edits to your own post - very silly and irritating.

I too, would love to know what the general MTOW will be limited to out of JNB will be for the 787-9. I'm curious if they will initially have to block any seats or if they will sell all seats, but not allow any cargo, or if they believe they will be able to fly a full passenger load, plus a marginal amount of cargo.

I can't wait to eventually see the numbers: Departure weight, fuel load, payload (passengers and cargo), etc.

If I remember correctly it is somewhere in the 225 to 230 range. With the max being 254 I don’t think they will get anywhere close to that. The 359 can at most get 275 out of there on a very good day and it has stellar field performance.
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1876
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:09 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
CONTACREW wrote:
N649DL wrote:

What are you talking about? The 777 that UA uses on the route to India out of EWR has a ton of J seats in a 2-2-2 configuration. My Brother-in-Law is Indian and my Dad and soon to be Step-Mom did the route in J back in 2017 and my Dad's seat overheated. Yet they moved him and kept going instead of diverting, but he did inhale some electrical fumes while sleeping. It was after that I put my foot down and said stop flying UA in general. Compensation was absolute crap by UA.

Not to mention the service on those India routes: Frankly seemed to suck and that's a long time to be put 14+ hours in a coffin seat and suffer long haul. AA's product seemed superior back in the day, IMHO.


Might want to educate yourself. UA flies the 77W to India from EWR and those are in a 1x2x1 configuration in J.


That is a very selective statement, for years all UA sent to India was their oldest 772s.

Oldest, wow. This is an even more selective statement.

UA's oldest 772s can never do EWR-India non-stop since they're non-ER 772As. And many of those GE-powered 772ERs that UA used to India are the newest among the fleet, heck some of the newest 772ERs globally.

Michael
 
jayunited
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:14 pm

Qantas744er wrote:

UA B789 have GEnx-1B74/75 ( 76,700Lbs )
UA B788 have GEnx-1B70 ( 72,300Lbs )

The highest GEnx rating available on the B789 is the -1B76A (78,500Lbs). The additional thrust would certainly help the B789 out of FAOR/JNB.


Correct me if I'm wrong but the rating you are saying is now available for a 789 (78,500LBS) is higher than the thrust rating for the 78X. The article also talked about increase fuel efficiency which should help UA on what would become the new longest nonstop route in our network SFO-BLR-SFO.

But if we focus on performance what kind of boost to the TOG could UA be looking at especially coming out of BLR and JNB. How much additional payload could UA potentially lift out of these airports with engines producing an additional 1,800LBS of thrust each?
 
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c933103
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:16 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
I will throw out a notion for people to tear down - we know India-US traffic is very large but nonstop flights are low given the traffic. I feel a big reason the US3 didn’t launch nonstops to india was driven by competition (yield) but also the need to fill US-EU hub to hub flights. First - competition is down and it is unlikely flights like EY’s SFO-AUH will come back anytime soon. So launch to stop them in the future. Second - India’s peak season is winter (there is still decent traffic to India in summer and of course Indians flying to EU and US in the summer). Also VFR to India is basically year round with peaks during the main US holidays (thanksgiving, Christmas, summer) and Indian holidays (Diwali, Christmas, summer - which for Bombay is April). So you get decent traffic flows outside of the main US-EU flows. Add to that the year round business traffic, and India is a great way to fill seats on the multiple dailes from US hubs to EU hubs with onwards to India. With Covid, US-EU flights will be down for a bit (hub flights will return first but many nonstop city pairs will not for quite some time). Plus people are avoiding connecting in third countries and VFR is being seen as a stable (even if not high earning) flight for airlines (look at VS flying UK-Pakistan). So take all of these together, and I think you have the right moment for UA to do what they did. Oh and finally, as many have said, AI really proved people want nonstops (AI for god’s sake). I give credit to UA for really driving market expansion after AI even if it does hurt LH. I think there is plenty of traffic for EU-India to survive with these new nonstops. Perhaps they get downgraded from 748s but they will survive.


To summarize
COVID19 is rationalizing routes in true sense, no funneling unnecessary traffic through preferred hub and calling it efficient.
COVID19 busted the premium traffic myth, if there is no capacity dumping even Y yields can be decent and routes can survive without front cabin being full.
AI survived without any partners' help, it is UA's turn to survive without partners.
Just don't tell LH or SQ.

What you are saying is that, people will pay a high price when they're forced to pay high price without any other options.
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BawliBooch
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:24 pm

hohd wrote:
BLR has lower VFR than DEL, BOM, and even HYD


BLR lower than HYD? This was certainly true before 2016, but is this still the case? BLR market has grown in the past 5 years by virtue of it being India's startup capital.

OTOH, India's vice like grip on the outsourcing industry has collapsed in the past few years with Philippines and other countries taking away a sizeable chunk of this business.

Guess we will need to wait and see how the COVID affects the traffic figures to and from BLR.
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
VTORD
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:45 pm

StinkyPinky wrote:
How will they staff the SFO-BLR flights with speakers? Despite furloughing 5,500 FAs, will they be hiring a handful of new Kannada/Hindi FAs for this route? DH to SFO from other language bases?

Not sure what you are implying here but there is no need to hire "speakers". I have taken AF, LH, UA, EK over the years to BOM and am yet to come across a Marathi (or Hindi) speaking crew on either one of my flights. It's not needed. English will do just fine.
 
Blockplus
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:46 pm

Qantas744er wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
jayunited wrote:

You start to see performance penalties when the temperature hits 95F/97F or 35C/36C, at those temps you are holding off at least 3,000 LBS of cargo if not more.

Then there are days when UA has had to jettison all the cargo out of SYD but only when the temperature exceeds 105F or 107F / 40C or 41.6C. If we are looking at a full pax cabin and you are talking temperatures in this range or higher in most cases you can forget about taking the cargo out of SYD or MEL in some cases the non revs have to be pulled off the aircraft. There are days during the southern hemispheres summer where even though the dispatcher has padded the temperature, 2-4 degrees in the release it isn't enough. Sydney at 10:00 is already pushing 101F/102F and the captain 20 minutes before departure will have the dispatcher rerun the flight plan with a temp of 105F because the captain knows they are going to sit on the ground after push back waiting for the runway for another 20-30 minutes, and it blows everything out of the water.

The 789 is a very capable aircraft, and it does have its limits, but it still performs a hell of a lot better than the 77E. :D

Valuable information as always. And yes the 77E was a pioneer in it’s time, but the time is now for the Dreamliner and the Airbus. How much of a difference would it make if UA had taken The higher thrust GENx? They have 72 or 73k on the 89 now right?


UA B789 have GEnx-1B74/75 ( 76,700Lbs )
UA B788 have GEnx-1B70 ( 72,300Lbs )

The highest GEnx rating available on the B789 is the -1B76A (78,500Lbs). The additional thrust would certainly help the B789 out of FAOR/JNB.



They have the GENx-1b78/p2. I wonder if they have been certified on anything yet. I thought I read that was certified last year. 80,400lbs.
 
tofur
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:26 am

CONTACREW wrote:
StinkyPinky wrote:
How will they staff the SFO-BLR flights with speakers? Despite furloughing 5,500 FAs, will they be hiring a handful of new Kannada/Hindi FAs for this route? DH to SFO from other language bases?


No UA isn’t going to hire Hindi speaking FAs after furloughing. They will either staff them out of the SFO base or just operate the flight without speakers.


The route language cabin crew work very hard on the flights I have operated, not only the regular service duties but the continuous barrage of queries in their native language for those not conversational in English or French (my airline). This is especially true on flights to Latin America, mainland China, Japan, Korea and India. We have four to five route language speakers in addition to two French qualified speakers on widebody international flights. It is very important from a customer experience point of view to have service in your language of choice. India does present a challenge as there are at least 22 official languages. I am sure United will make the right choice and staff flights with appropriate route language qualified personnel.

Addendum: I realize times and contracts have changed over time but I was laid off speaking English and French, to allow those qualified in German, Dutch and Italian to be recalled or even hired before I returned to work. It was not pleasant or fair in my view at the time, but I realize now how important it is for an airline to be able to offer a competitive product and that includes service in your language of choice.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:53 am

VTORD wrote:
StinkyPinky wrote:
How will they staff the SFO-BLR flights with speakers? Despite furloughing 5,500 FAs, will they be hiring a handful of new Kannada/Hindi FAs for this route? DH to SFO from other language bases?

Not sure what you are implying here but there is no need to hire "speakers". I have taken AF, LH, UA, EK over the years to BOM and am yet to come across a Marathi (or Hindi) speaking crew on either one of my flights. It's not needed. English will do just fine.


I am sorry but this is such a selfish and elitist comment. Language crew (at least one), are needed on Indian flights. There are many people who are not “fluent” in English and/or cannot understand detailed discussions Light flight disruptions / ask detailed questions in English. What do you lose by having a native speaker on the flight? Out of BOM most airlines (but not AF) usually have one Hindi speaker in my experience. UA, DL definitely do. I mean all flights to the EU from JFK on DL have local language speakers. (BCN will have Spanish but not always Catalan - similar to the issue in India where DEL, BLR, BOM get Hindi speaking crew (w other languages as bonus) but MAA gets Tamil).
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1247
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:00 am

BawliBooch wrote:
hohd wrote:
BLR has lower VFR than DEL, BOM, and even HYD


BLR lower than HYD? This was certainly true before 2016, but is this still the case? BLR market has grown in the past 5 years by virtue of it being India's startup capital.

OTOH, India's vice like grip on the outsourcing industry has collapsed in the past few years with Philippines and other countries taking away a sizeable chunk of this business.

Guess we will need to wait and see how the COVID affects the traffic figures to and from BLR.


We are talking VFR here not tourists. It’s an important distinction. While VFR can be price sensitive, they are stable, travel outside of normal holidays and need to go back and their relatives need to come visit them (when possible). If we are talking US, then yes, HYD has more VFR than compared to BLR. That said, BLR probably has more locals flying to the US as tourists than HYD (going by income and the lifestyle of BLR which is just behind BOM in this respect). I think that is why you see J to/from BLR not crowded during slow business periods and Y less crowded outside of normal holidays / school vacations
 
avi8
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:36 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:03 am

How many 787-9 have Polaris? Weren’t there 2 being modified right now?
avi8
 
tofur
Posts: 95
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:23 am

VTORD wrote:
StinkyPinky wrote:
How will they staff the SFO-BLR flights with speakers? Despite furloughing 5,500 FAs, will they be hiring a handful of new Kannada/Hindi FAs for this route? DH to SFO from other language bases?

Not sure what you are implying here but there is no need to hire "speakers". I have taken AF, LH, UA, EK over the years to BOM and am yet to come across a Marathi (or Hindi) speaking crew on either one of my flights. It's not needed. English will do just fine.


Please consider the elderly population! Many of whom do not speak English, younger population many speak English.


Air Canada: Toronto-Delhi 4 Punjabi and 2 Hindi speakers
Toronto-Mumbai 4 Hindi and 2 Punjabi speakers
English and French always available, other languages likely available too.
 
phatfarmlines
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Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: Why United should establish a new TPA hub (or at least a focus city)

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:28 am

With NEO/MAX aircraft, TPA will likely transform into a fragmented focus operation for LCC/ULCC in the coming years post-COVID19, much like what is going on in MCO and has been going on now for some time in LAS. You're already starting to see the makings of an expanded operation with the recent B6 announcement to CUN & RDU.

I don't think we'll see new organic hub/focus growth under a Kirby leadership, rather, gaining hubs through mergers.
 
joeljack
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:38 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:38 am

Anybody heard any rumblings on when a few more United clubs will open back up? American just announced 7 more re-opening...seem to be going after United’s business. IAH, SFO, DEN, AUS and a few others.
 
TrafficCop
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Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:00 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:19 am

avi8 wrote:
How many 787-9 have Polaris? Weren’t there 2 being modified right now?


There are 9 completed, 2 in Mod and 6 more to be delivered. That would be 17 of the 38 on order. Not sure if will get all 6 by
end of year but should have all by end of spring, Could also get a few more done by years end.

There are 6 of 12 788's completed and all 13 of the 781 have Polaris.
 
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calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3234
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:50 am

If indeed the 2 789s in XMN are in for Polaris mod it would seem to be a shift in priorities probably to set up these ULH routes.
The push for Polaris when the pandemic hit was 788s, undoubtedly due to the large difference in Polaris/Y seat mix between configurations and probable shift in missions.
 
TrafficCop
Posts: 71
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:00 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:05 am

avi8 wrote:
How many 787-9 have Polaris? Weren’t there 2 being modified right now?


...Check out this site. Some great work by Anetter ca[https

://sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/polaris-mod-schedule
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8463
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:00 am

c933103 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
To summarize
COVID19 is rationalizing routes in true sense, no funneling unnecessary traffic through preferred hub and calling it efficient.
COVID19 busted the premium traffic myth, if there is no capacity dumping even Y yields can be decent and routes can survive without front cabin being full.
AI survived without any partners' help, it is UA's turn to survive without partners.
Just don't tell LH or SQ.

What you are saying is that, people will pay a high price when they're forced to pay high price without any other options.


Below cost options do no one no good in the long run. If you followed who will get the haircut debate, it should be ME3, but because of market distortion it will be EU3.
All posts are just opinions.
 
VTORD
Posts: 748
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:45 pm

Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:33 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:

I am sorry but this is such a selfish and elitist comment. Language crew (at least one), are needed on Indian flights. There are many people who are not “fluent” in English and/or cannot understand detailed discussions Light flight disruptions / ask detailed questions in English. What do you lose by having a native speaker on the flight? Out of BOM most airlines (but not AF) usually have one Hindi speaker in my experience. UA, DL definitely do. I mean all flights to the EU from JFK on DL have local language speakers. (BCN will have Spanish but not always Catalan - similar to the issue in India where DEL, BLR, BOM get Hindi speaking crew (w other languages as bonus) but MAA gets Tamil).


tofur wrote:
Please consider the elderly population! Many of whom do not speak English, younger population many speak English.
Air Canada: Toronto-Delhi 4 Punjabi and 2 Hindi speakers
Toronto-Mumbai 4 Hindi and 2 Punjabi speakers
English and French always available, other languages likely available too.


That was certainly not my intention. I am aware of the English challenges. I have similar people in my family and close friends' families. My mother in law for eg., understands English very well but finds it difficult to communicate with people talking with an American accent. And I am certainly not advocating against UA hiring such people. I am just an armchair pundit on this forum whose opinion is basically useless to UA. On an India bound (or originating) flight, you tend to find people (co-pax) who can help you navigate/understand enough to reach your destination without incident. I have in the past myself helped a Maharashtrian couple navigate CDG and helped a Gujarati gentleman fill his immigration forms on a UA flight. I am sure there are other people like me with similar experiences. When traveling between DXB - BOM, I have obviously had Hindi + other language speaking FAs. One of my relatives used to be an FA on EK FWIW. On the two flights I took connecting from NA (EK500), I did not find any. I was merely suggesting that it wasn't an absolute must. There is no need to brand people selfish and elitist for speaking from their own experience.
 
N649DL
Posts: 1003
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:32 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
CONTACREW wrote:

Might want to educate yourself. UA flies the 77W to India from EWR and those are in a 1x2x1 configuration in J.


That is a very selective statement, for years all UA sent to India was their oldest 772s.

Oldest, wow. This is an even more selective statement.

UA's oldest 772s can never do EWR-India non-stop since they're non-ER 772As. And many of those GE-powered 772ERs that UA used to India are the newest among the fleet, heck some of the newest 772ERs globally.

Michael


No they're not. CO started getting the GE powered 777s in 1997-1998. Both sub fleets are roughly the same age minus 1-2 frames from 2006 from the CO side of the house. Your analysis is a complete misconception because CO started EWR-HKG in 1998 using the 777-224.
 
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STT757
Posts: 14150
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: Updated: UA plans EWR-JNB/OGG, IAD-ACC/LOS, ORD-DEL/KOA, SFO-BLR

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:13 pm

The oldest CO 777-200ERs are from September 1998, the oldest UA 777-200ERs are from March 1997. The newest CO 777-200ERs are from July 2010, the newest UA 777-200ERs are from March 2002.

Obviously the CO 777-200ERs are much newer.

1997: 14 United 777-222ERs
1998: 6 Continental 777-224ERs, 4 United 777-222ERs
1999: 8 Continental 777-224ERs, 6 United 222ERs
2000: 2 United 777-222ERs
2001: 8 United 777-222ERs
2002: 2 Continental 777-224ERs, 4 United 777-222ERs
2007: 2 Continental 777-224ERs
2010: 2 Continental 777-224ERs
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757

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