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jfklganyc
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:09 pm

Lots of routes to burn lots of money on.

UA is a day late and a dollar short on a lot of this. The demand for florida surged 2 months ago. Even established carriers like B6 are back down to one daily come Sept.

My bet is a good chunk of these never fly. Unless they want to burn money. And I dont think they do

For reference, the last time UA flew LGA to Florida was when they had a Miami hublet.

The last time CO flew LGA to Florida is when they tried 2 daily to MCO with Air 21 slots.

The last non hub route UA flew out of LGA was RDU...to get back at DL for starting EWR RDU

The only consistent non hub route that CO and UA flew out of LGA over the years was a Saturday only AUA flight.


That should frame United’s potential out of LGA.
 
drdisque
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:09 pm

One other these things do is pump up "single aisle" mainline block hours, which are one of the the metrics by which UA's scope clause is measured.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:12 pm

drdisque wrote:
The BOS flying is going to be probably pretty rough - UA is pretty weak in that POS. If the MKE flights are struggling and priced cheap they'll end up with a lot of reverse leakage from the North Suburbs of Chicago (similar to when Ted flew from MDW). Same with the LGA flights as I understand they are flying these to help retain the slots without flying way too much ORD-LGA and LGA-IAD. If business travel hasn't recovered after this and they still have to squat on LGA slots they might have to squat with a bunch of LGA-IAD flights on 50 seaters or maybe they just retain the Florida flying through the Spring. IND-RSW on an A320 is a pretty big swag too. Odd that RSW was the station they picked from IND too, must be lack of competition.


IND-RSW is a pretty big market (#6 or 7 from RSW), especially if you combine it with PGD where IND-PGD is the largest winter market.

DL serves/served it daily in winter, plus F9/G4/NK/WN all serve the market during winter.
Last edited by Midwestindy on Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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joeblow10
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:13 pm

If COS gets something - should be interesting. Somebody let me know if I’m missing a hub in the puzzle, but if not, only IAD/EWR are the ones without current service.

Aaaaand nevermind :D
 
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adamh8297
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:41 pm

drdisque wrote:
The BOS flying is going to be probably pretty rough - UA is pretty weak in that POS.


The average customer for these flights is going to have no brand loyalty.

In the event of a vaccine or better therapeutics - I'm sure my best deal to TPA would be purchasing the cheapest one way in each direction on different airlines.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:43 pm

rjbesikof wrote:
Could we see route drops similar to AA's announcement last month?


This announcement has nothing to do with dropping routes, it has everything to do with UA responding to consumer demand for more nonstop options to Florida instead of being forced to make a connection at ORD, EWR, or IAD this upcoming holiday season.

Traditionally UA has resisted point-to-point flying even in the face of strong competition but COVID is forcing UA to rethink how we operate and forcing us to be more flexible. There are a lot of snowbirds in the Northeast and the Midwest many of them begin this escape from the cold in mid-November. Will the same migration happen this year I don't know. But what UA is doing with offering new or (in the case of CLE reinstating) service to Florida is they are responding customers many of whom especially in light of COVID want access to more nonstop flights.

In my opinion because this is out of the "norm" for UA, I think this is sort of a beta test because Florida is not a strong market for UA. If it works these routes may return seasonally (spring break and holiday travel season only). However I don't see these point-to-point (Florida) routes becoming year around unless by some stroke of luck UA experiences overwhelming success during this launch period.

It is good to see UA looking at leisure markets and exploring how to make money in the leisure markets especially since business travel is expected to remain down for a few years. If the US is finally on a downward trend with COVID infections by spring/summer 2021 and if Europe is open to US tourist it would be nice to see UA focus on adding or increasing options to many European tourist destinations at least for the 2021 spring/summer travel season.
 
TomJoel
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:44 pm

codc10 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
CanadianRedneck wrote:
Surprised IAH-ABI is a new route, didn't UA used to fly this route?


Certainly not for quite a while, if they ever did... Back in the late 2000s (which is when I really started following the industry) CO did fly to more Texas destinations from IAH, including DRT, VCT, BPT, and TYR (and maybe ACT?), but I only remember AA flying to ABI.


UA dropped a few shorthaul TX routes when it ended Colgan SF3 flying out of IAH in 2012 or so. Some, like DRT, stuck around with ERJ service, but eventually those flights were withdrawn, too. TXK also comes to mind.


Colgan operated 3x or 4x daily ABI-IAH up until 2010 I believe, but withdrew service because of low load factors. ABI has never consistently been able to keep an airline, so I am very surprised to see UA even attempt at that market. This route should be short lived once subsidy cash is used up.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:57 pm

What is the likelihood of these routes being extended? It seems to me that 2 months is just the trial period.

Additionally, how was PBI totally overlooked in all of this? LGA and BOS could have easily ran it daily.
 
N649DL
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:06 pm

adamh8297 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
The BOS flying is going to be probably pretty rough - UA is pretty weak in that POS.


The average customer for these flights is going to have no brand loyalty.

In the event of a vaccine or better therapeutics - I'm sure my best deal to TPA would be purchasing the cheapest one way in each direction on different airlines.


I'll give it to UA that pre-COVID they were pretty strong up in BOS with a solid 10 gate concourse. I think they will do OK on BOS-MCO/FLL, but TPA and RSW are more of a stretch.
 
Brickell305
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:20 pm

I’m surprised UA is adding more NYC-FLL. They’ve had $27 RT FLL-EWR flights for weeks now. Why add more at that price?
 
jayunited
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:10 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
What is the likelihood of these routes being extended? It seems to me that 2 months is just the trial period.

Additionally, how was PBI totally overlooked in all of this? LGA and BOS could have easily ran it daily.


Personally I don't think we are looking at year around routes. But if this trial period proves successful or as UA likes to say the routes meet or exceed expectation (they never tell you what those expectation are) then in my opinion we could see these routes return during spring break (Florida is a huge spring break destination) and again during the 2021 holiday travel season. But it all depends on how successful this launch is because like I stated my earlier post Florida is not a strong market for UA.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:12 am

jfklganyc wrote:
Lots of routes to burn lots of money on.

UA is a day late and a dollar short on a lot of this. The demand for florida surged 2 months ago. Even established carriers like B6 are back down to one daily come Sept.

My bet is a good chunk of these never fly. Unless they want to burn money. And I dont think they do

For reference, the last time UA flew LGA to Florida was when they had a Miami hublet.

The last time CO flew LGA to Florida is when they tried 2 daily to MCO with Air 21 slots.

The last non hub route UA flew out of LGA was RDU...to get back at DL for starting EWR RDU

The only consistent non hub route that CO and UA flew out of LGA over the years was a Saturday only AUA flight.


That should frame United’s potential out of LGA.


These routes aren't for Sep they are for Nov/Dec, anyone who knows Central/South Florida knows peak season is Winter/Spring Break, especially to RSW.

It's a pretty safe bet that since many Northerners missed Spring/Summer/ & now likely Fall Break, Florida demand should be relatively strong as long as we don't see mid-July virus levels.

Actually pretty smart on UA's part here, I'd assume DL was/is planning something similar given their history of p2p.
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FSDan
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:16 am

TomJoel wrote:
codc10 wrote:
FSDan wrote:

Certainly not for quite a while, if they ever did... Back in the late 2000s (which is when I really started following the industry) CO did fly to more Texas destinations from IAH, including DRT, VCT, BPT, and TYR (and maybe ACT?), but I only remember AA flying to ABI.


UA dropped a few shorthaul TX routes when it ended Colgan SF3 flying out of IAH in 2012 or so. Some, like DRT, stuck around with ERJ service, but eventually those flights were withdrawn, too. TXK also comes to mind.


Colgan operated 3x or 4x daily ABI-IAH up until 2010 I believe, but withdrew service because of low load factors. ABI has never consistently been able to keep an airline, so I am very surprised to see UA even attempt at that market. This route should be short lived once subsidy cash is used up.


I'm pretty sure AA has been serving DFW-ABI continuously for well over a decade. I don't remember the IAH-ABI service, but I could be wrong on that.
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tphuang
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:24 am

Midwestindy wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Lots of routes to burn lots of money on.

UA is a day late and a dollar short on a lot of this. The demand for florida surged 2 months ago. Even established carriers like B6 are back down to one daily come Sept.

My bet is a good chunk of these never fly. Unless they want to burn money. And I dont think they do

For reference, the last time UA flew LGA to Florida was when they had a Miami hublet.

The last time CO flew LGA to Florida is when they tried 2 daily to MCO with Air 21 slots.

The last non hub route UA flew out of LGA was RDU...to get back at DL for starting EWR RDU

The only consistent non hub route that CO and UA flew out of LGA over the years was a Saturday only AUA flight.


That should frame United’s potential out of LGA.


These routes aren't for Sep they are for Nov/Dec, anyone who knows Central/South Florida knows peak season is Winter/Spring Break, especially to RSW.

It's a pretty safe bet that since many Northerners missed Spring/Summer/ & now likely Fall Break, Florida demand should be relatively strong as long as we don't see mid-July virus levels.

Actually pretty smart on UA's part here, I'd assume DL was/is planning something similar given their history of p2p.


Keep in mind that right now UA is advertising $27 R/T fares on most routes to Florida out of EWR. There is no shortage of capacity from Northeast to Florida. Quite a few airlines will be sitting on the same strategy of dumping capacity in this market. There may be more demand here than other markets, but there is also a whole lot of capacity.
 
FSDan
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:42 am

Midwestindy wrote:
drdisque wrote:
IND-RSW on an A320 is a pretty big swag too. Odd that RSW was the station they picked from IND too, must be lack of competition.


IND-RSW is a pretty big market (#6 or 7 from RSW), especially if you combine it with PGD where IND-PGD is the largest winter market.

DL serves/served it daily in winter, plus F9/G4/NK/WN all serve the market during winter.


Yeah, I've seen WN alone offering 4x daily flights on IND-RSW during typical Feb/March schedules.
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Midwestindy
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:47 am

tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Lots of routes to burn lots of money on.

UA is a day late and a dollar short on a lot of this. The demand for florida surged 2 months ago. Even established carriers like B6 are back down to one daily come Sept.

My bet is a good chunk of these never fly. Unless they want to burn money. And I dont think they do

For reference, the last time UA flew LGA to Florida was when they had a Miami hublet.

The last time CO flew LGA to Florida is when they tried 2 daily to MCO with Air 21 slots.

The last non hub route UA flew out of LGA was RDU...to get back at DL for starting EWR RDU

The only consistent non hub route that CO and UA flew out of LGA over the years was a Saturday only AUA flight.


That should frame United’s potential out of LGA.


These routes aren't for Sep they are for Nov/Dec, anyone who knows Central/South Florida knows peak season is Winter/Spring Break, especially to RSW.

It's a pretty safe bet that since many Northerners missed Spring/Summer/ & now likely Fall Break, Florida demand should be relatively strong as long as we don't see mid-July virus levels.

Actually pretty smart on UA's part here, I'd assume DL was/is planning something similar given their history of p2p.


Keep in mind that right now UA is advertising $27 R/T fares on most routes to Florida out of EWR. There is no shortage of capacity from Northeast to Florida. Quite a few airlines will be sitting on the same strategy of dumping capacity in this market. There may be more demand here than other markets, but there is also a whole lot of capacity.


August fare sales have little to nothing to do with winter demand.

Airlines know what they are doing, they are putting capacity there because that's where demand will be: National parks get too cold for visitors, hawaii will likely still be partially closed, int'l restrictions likely will continue, + factor in traditional winter demand patterns and Florida becomes the #1 spot for airlines to put capacity.

Any vacationers will have very few other options for leisure this winter, but if demand doesn't materialize they can easily pull these routes.
Last edited by Midwestindy on Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:48 am

The capacity dumping into Florida is going to be epic this winter.
 
Judge1310
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:28 am

It's so funny how so many folks on here seem to think that UA just willy-nilly chose these routes to operate, as if there was no research/modeling done. Just because an airline hasn't operated certain routes in the past does not mean such operations won't work well these days. Route/network planning and revenue management principles that were long-held have, quite literally, been up-ended. Success in this new world in which we operate is defined by the concepts of flexibility and adaptability; the airlines that can adjust quickly to the aviation environment are the ones who will survive.
 
Q
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:07 am

Sioux City SUX no U and X there.

Q
 
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calpsafltskeds
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:35 am

787-9 New Delivery:
N29981 first revenue flight 1476/12Aug, now en route IAD-SFO
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:44 am

For what it's worth, Wikipedia says Continental/Colgan suspended IAH-ABI in 2008.
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airplaneboy
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:16 am

RainerBoeing777 wrote:


Exciting stuff, hope to see some of these routes stick. Interesting to see the comments about mask wearing not being enforced - and no reply back from UA. Even though they replied to tweets within the same timeframe about other topics lol. I guess these routes are intended for those who do not believe in or care about wearing masks while flying... C’est la vie lol
 
232whereru
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:34 am

It really is mind boggling how some of the people on this forum seen to think that UA has no chance of making it work due to old ways of thinking and personal hangups on flying with UA. This is 2020 and with everything going on, every company is reevaulting how and where they do business. Things that worked in past may not be relevant to business right now.. It's all about survival and hopefully making a buck...I for one hope that United goes after every market that potentially will make money and keep the airline profitiable... There are always going to be other airlines offering a lower fare or some inflight amenity that some people think they can't fly without,, but if you bother to look at the bigger picture of what this airline offers you overall, you might think differently about the bigger picture....I'm glad United is finally waking up to all of this........It's about time...
 
jfk777
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:48 am

United, where is the love for PBI ? Your expansion involves almost every major Florida airport except MIA.
 
acavpics
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:51 am

STT757 wrote:
United1 wrote:
LGA-MCO x2, LGA-TPA, LGA-FLL x2 and LGA-RSW....there are flights from BOS and CLE as well.

Looking for a link but I just got an email from UA.


So we finally answered what UA was going to do with the LGA slots they were using for LGA-CLE (5X daily).


I'm surprised that they could never profit from LGA - CLE.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:54 am

Boston92 wrote:

You read the rules. They entirely fit.

It isn't difficult. Has nobody ever played Boggle??


Kudos to UA's social media team for this; I thought it was great.

P2P routes to chase the sun? Not the worst idea I've ever seen. DOC costs will be (relatively) low anyway, so why not try it, and see what happens?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
jayunited
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:12 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Lots of routes to burn lots of money on.

UA is a day late and a dollar short on a lot of this. The demand for florida surged 2 months ago. Even established carriers like B6 are back down to one daily come Sept.

My bet is a good chunk of these never fly. Unless they want to burn money. And I dont think they do

For reference, the last time UA flew LGA to Florida was when they had a Miami hublet.

The last time CO flew LGA to Florida is when they tried 2 daily to MCO with Air 21 slots.

The last non hub route UA flew out of LGA was RDU...to get back at DL for starting EWR RDU

The only consistent non hub route that CO and UA flew out of LGA over the years was a Saturday only AUA flight.


That should frame United’s potential out of LGA.


I willingly admit Florida is not a strong market for United Airlines and it is interesting to see UA take this approach to Florida, and only time will tell if this beta test pays off.

Having said that, let me say this isn't a day late or a dollar short. These routes are targeting holiday travelers and snowbirds, hence the reason they will only operate in November and December and why I believe this is a beta test. On Flying Together UA tells employees these point-to-point routes are in response to UA customers looking for more nonstop leisure flights and for ways to bypass our hubs at ORD, EWR, and IAD. There are a lot of people in the Midwest and Northeast who either own a second home in Florida or have extensive family in Florida. Will we see the same migration this year that is seen almost every year as northerns try to escape a brutal winter? I don't know but it is nice to see UA responding to projected demand and giving UA customers options instead of trying to force customers to connect at a hub if they are trying to reach Florida.

Quick side note in addition to Florida a lot of Midwesterners also own property or have family out in Arizona. Only time will tell if usual travel patterns will take place this coming holiday travel season and if UA's gamble will pay off.
Last edited by jayunited on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tphuang
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:13 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

These routes aren't for Sep they are for Nov/Dec, anyone who knows Central/South Florida knows peak season is Winter/Spring Break, especially to RSW.

It's a pretty safe bet that since many Northerners missed Spring/Summer/ & now likely Fall Break, Florida demand should be relatively strong as long as we don't see mid-July virus levels.

Actually pretty smart on UA's part here, I'd assume DL was/is planning something similar given their history of p2p.


Keep in mind that right now UA is advertising $27 R/T fares on most routes to Florida out of EWR. There is no shortage of capacity from Northeast to Florida. Quite a few airlines will be sitting on the same strategy of dumping capacity in this market. There may be more demand here than other markets, but there is also a whole lot of capacity.


August fare sales have little to nothing to do with winter demand.

Airlines know what they are doing, they are putting capacity there because that's where demand will be: National parks get too cold for visitors, hawaii will likely still be partially closed, int'l restrictions likely will continue, + factor in traditional winter demand patterns and Florida becomes the #1 spot for airlines to put capacity.

Any vacationers will have very few other options for leisure this winter, but if demand doesn't materialize they can easily pull these routes.


They also knew what they were doing in July/August which led to the $27 R/T fares. Any airline with east coast presence will be piling on Florida capacity this winter since there is so few markets likely to have demand. UA is just trying to get a piece of that pie or else the aircraft is going to sit around empty. If they see enough bookings to cover cost of flight, they will go ahead with it. Really nothing different than what we are seeing from some of the other airline moves.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:24 pm

jayunited wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Lots of routes to burn lots of money on.

UA is a day late and a dollar short on a lot of this. The demand for florida surged 2 months ago. Even established carriers like B6 are back down to one daily come Sept.

My bet is a good chunk of these never fly. Unless they want to burn money. And I dont think they do

For reference, the last time UA flew LGA to Florida was when they had a Miami hublet.

The last time CO flew LGA to Florida is when they tried 2 daily to MCO with Air 21 slots.

The last non hub route UA flew out of LGA was RDU...to get back at DL for starting EWR RDU

The only consistent non hub route that CO and UA flew out of LGA over the years was a Saturday only AUA flight.


That should frame United’s potential out of LGA.


I willingly admit Florida is not a strong market for United Airlines and it is interesting to see UA take this approach to Florida, and only time will tell if this beta test pays off.

Having said that, let me say this isn't a day late or a dollar short. These routes are targeting holiday travelers and snowbirds, hence the reason they will only operate in November and December and why I believe this is a beta test. On Flying Together UA tells employees these point-to-point routes are in response to UA customers looking for more nonstop leisure flights and for ways to bypass our hubs at ORD, EWR, and IAD. There are a lot of people in the Midwest and Northeast who either own a second home in Florida or have extensive family in Florida. Will we see the same migration this year that is seen almost every year as northerns try to escape a brutal winter? I don't know but it is nice to see UA responding to projected demand and giving UA customers options instead of trying to force customers to connect at a hub if they are trying to reach Florida.

Quick side note in addition to Florida a lot of Midwesterners also own property or have family out in Arizona. Only time will tell if usual travel patterns will take place this coming holiday travel season and if UA's gamble will pay off.


I think you need to go review the frequency that the airlines including United or flying to Florida right now.

and then look at the fares.

it is a very bad situation.

I hope things look better in December, but I doubt they will. Not when August has sub 50 percent loads and a widespread vaccine will occur after December...if we are lucky!
 
TomJoel
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:38 pm

FSDan wrote:
TomJoel wrote:
codc10 wrote:

UA dropped a few shorthaul TX routes when it ended Colgan SF3 flying out of IAH in 2012 or so. Some, like DRT, stuck around with ERJ service, but eventually those flights were withdrawn, too. TXK also comes to mind.


Colgan operated 3x or 4x daily ABI-IAH up until 2010 I believe, but withdrew service because of low load factors. ABI has never consistently been able to keep an airline, so I am very surprised to see UA even attempt at that market. This route should be short lived once subsidy cash is used up.


I'm pretty sure AA has been serving DFW-ABI continuously for well over a decade. I don't remember the IAH-ABI service, but I could be wrong on that.



I know AA has served that market for well over 30 years and I don't think it has ever been consistently profitable. I know AA has (had) a small maint. base there at ABI, but I want to say that base was either closed or scaled back with most heavy maint. now done at XNA. Regardless, I find it really interesting to see UA attempt intra-Texas flying considering those markets, such as ABI, are historically unprofitable.
 
codc10
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:00 pm

It's inappropriate to speculate... but everyone does it, so here goes!

A few things to keep in mind here:
- Business travel is dead for the rest of 2020, and most likely well into 2021. So, high-frequency mainline capacity in business markets isn't happening.
- There is growing support for another measure of airline relief, and it will again likely come in the form of payroll grants/support, because short-term liquidity is no longer an issue and job losses are a political liability.
- Oil will remain cheap.
- Anecdotally, the virus seems to run on an 8-10 week course in a given region where cases rapidly increase to a definable peak, and then begin a decline at a slower pace than the rise. Florida would already appear to be beyond the peak.
- International leisure is limited in the winter, and to the extent Americans are planning to travel this winter, it will likely be mainland domestic, and it's more than reasonable to anticipate that Florida will be a popular destination

These adds are relatively low-impact, as they require no new infrastructure to implement (UA already has the aircraft, crews, and gates to operate) and really only require incremental marketing spend to promote. With a potential extension of airline payroll support, it becomes even lower (actual) cost to operate. If they flop, they'll be pulled from the schedule, but see this for what it is: a minimal-risk bet to get ahead of the next demand surge, and position United to benefit from traffic flows in which it isn't a historically strong contender.

With Ankit Gupta (and PQ), United has a forward-thinking, innovative network planning team that isn't beholden to any pre-merger notions of the way United does business.
 
TXRoadMan
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:44 pm

TomJoel wrote:
FSDan wrote:
TomJoel wrote:

Colgan operated 3x or 4x daily ABI-IAH up until 2010 I believe, but withdrew service because of low load factors. ABI has never consistently been able to keep an airline, so I am very surprised to see UA even attempt at that market. This route should be short lived once subsidy cash is used up.


I'm pretty sure AA has been serving DFW-ABI continuously for well over a decade. I don't remember the IAH-ABI service, but I could be wrong on that.



I know AA has served that market for well over 30 years and I don't think it has ever been consistently profitable. I know AA has (had) a small maint. base there at ABI, but I want to say that base was either closed or scaled back with most heavy maint. now done at XNA. Regardless, I find it really interesting to see UA attempt intra-Texas flying considering those markets, such as ABI, are historically unprofitable.

Unless it was a very recent closure, the MQ base at ABI has been alive and well for quite some time. That was where all of the ERDs were reactivated with checks and new interiors. It's been a bit, but as recently as a year or two ago, the SF3s were still parked there. The earliest reference I could find to ABI in AA literature was 2001. I have no doubt that it goes back earlier than that, but the relevant Metro and/or Simmons timetables aren't available.

The original quote I wanted to reference got chopped off in my reply, but I found a COex route map from 2001 on Departed Flights from that has a good list of those 'legacy' TX XE markets. Some of the markets, either questioned or not mentioned are: ABI, ACT, and SJT. http://www.departedflights.com/COX0801.html , if you're interested. ACT was dropped in 2012, and Tyler in 2016. I didn't do any other digging to find out when the other markets were dropped.

For some reason, I was thinking that GGG and/or TXK had CO/UAex service. I couldn't find any reference to GGG, but I did find where TXK was operated as a tag from TYR in '94 on a Bro.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:48 pm

Eagle Lake is in there :P (ELA).

Also DRO, NAP (that’s for Naples right?). BOS is obvious. TPA, CMH...
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:04 pm

The fleet changes, fleet status, and repaint status posts at the start of this thread have been updated.

There is also a post dedicated to keeping track of stored mainline aircraft.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
slider
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:08 pm

I'll admit to being perplexed by these routes. Cherry-picking point to point stuff has a place these days, I'm sure.

But when traffic is so depressed overall, and capacity, why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud. Kirby seems frenetic when he talks about his strategy for the network, because UA is doing just the opposite of what he's publicly said before.

I wish them well but this just seems so superfluous. I remember all these long-standing midwest-FL routes; there's a reason they aren't there much anymore.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:08 pm

I'm glad to see UA taking some risks and trying new P2P flying, even if it's Florida. Makes sense if the network is cut down to such bare bones...much harder to get somewhere in a timely manner via a hub these days so why not try to bypass on routes that might have the demand?
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:25 pm

TXRoadMan wrote:
TomJoel wrote:
FSDan wrote:

I'm pretty sure AA has been serving DFW-ABI continuously for well over a decade. I don't remember the IAH-ABI service, but I could be wrong on that.



I know AA has served that market for well over 30 years and I don't think it has ever been consistently profitable. I know AA has (had) a small maint. base there at ABI, but I want to say that base was either closed or scaled back with most heavy maint. now done at XNA. Regardless, I find it really interesting to see UA attempt intra-Texas flying considering those markets, such as ABI, are historically unprofitable.

Unless it was a very recent closure, the MQ base at ABI has been alive and well for quite some time. That was where all of the ERDs were reactivated with checks and new interiors. It's been a bit, but as recently as a year or two ago, the SF3s were still parked there. The earliest reference I could find to ABI in AA literature was 2001. I have no doubt that it goes back earlier than that, but the relevant Metro and/or Simmons timetables aren't available.

The original quote I wanted to reference got chopped off in my reply, but I found a COex route map from 2001 on Departed Flights from that has a good list of those 'legacy' TX XE markets. Some of the markets, either questioned or not mentioned are: ABI, ACT, and SJT. http://www.departedflights.com/COX0801.html , if you're interested. ACT was dropped in 2012, and Tyler in 2016. I didn't do any other digging to find out when the other markets were dropped.

For some reason, I was thinking that GGG and/or TXK had CO/UAex service. I couldn't find any reference to GGG, but I did find where TXK was operated as a tag from TYR in '94 on a Bro.


I sure wish UA would bring back ACT and TYR but its hard to justify in this environment.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:26 pm

Not shocked but pleased about the IND-MKE-CLE to Florida stuff. Always thought UA should leverage their brand recognition in the Midwest to do some p2p flying to the west coast of Florida. But the BOS & LGA flights especially to hyper-competitive LCC/ULCC hubs MCO and FLL shock me. Might be experimental but if UA does okay on these routes in a period with limited business travel, we might see a shift in overall strategy long-term. I like it!
 
codc10
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:33 pm

slider wrote:
I'll admit to being perplexed by these routes. Cherry-picking point to point stuff has a place these days, I'm sure.

But when traffic is so depressed overall, and capacity, why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud. Kirby seems frenetic when he talks about his strategy for the network, because UA is doing just the opposite of what he's publicly said before.

I wish them well but this just seems so superfluous. I remember all these long-standing midwest-FL routes; there's a reason they aren't there much anymore.


I'm told that most of these flights are not daily; in fact, a few are Saturday-only flights with a limited season (Nov-Jan), so we aren't talking about extensive operations. It won't be 28 flights every day, despite the language of the release.
 
TomJoel
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:43 pm

TXRoadMan wrote:
TomJoel wrote:
FSDan wrote:

I'm pretty sure AA has been serving DFW-ABI continuously for well over a decade. I don't remember the IAH-ABI service, but I could be wrong on that.



I know AA has served that market for well over 30 years and I don't think it has ever been consistently profitable. I know AA has (had) a small maint. base there at ABI, but I want to say that base was either closed or scaled back with most heavy maint. now done at XNA. Regardless, I find it really interesting to see UA attempt intra-Texas flying considering those markets, such as ABI, are historically unprofitable.

Unless it was a very recent closure, the MQ base at ABI has been alive and well for quite some time. That was where all of the ERDs were reactivated with checks and new interiors. It's been a bit, but as recently as a year or two ago, the SF3s were still parked there. The earliest reference I could find to ABI in AA literature was 2001. I have no doubt that it goes back earlier than that, but the relevant Metro and/or Simmons timetables aren't available.

The original quote I wanted to reference got chopped off in my reply, but I found a COex route map from 2001 on Departed Flights from that has a good list of those 'legacy' TX XE markets. Some of the markets, either questioned or not mentioned are: ABI, ACT, and SJT. http://www.departedflights.com/COX0801.html , if you're interested. ACT was dropped in 2012, and Tyler in 2016. I didn't do any other digging to find out when the other markets were dropped.


For some reason, I was thinking that GGG and/or TXK had CO/UAex service. I couldn't find any reference to GGG, but I did find where TXK was operated as a tag from TYR in '94 on a Bro.



I've got an acquaintance who works at the XNA maint. base who told me that ABI was being closed as early as this year since ABI doesn't have the capacity to work the E170s. Additionally, from my understanding there's also an ongoing dispute between the city and AA over the usage of the facilities at ABI since the city owns them. This could be why UA is starting service because AA may be pulling out. Of course this is speculation. I know the last time I flew in there was in early 2019 and the maint. base looked deserted with no aircraft and hangar facilities closed up. Also, the last time I went to ABI the SF3s were in the process of being broken up and scrapped on site.
 
TXRoadMan
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:58 pm

TomJoel wrote:
I've got an acquaintance who works at the XNA maint. base who told me that ABI was being closed as early as this year since ABI doesn't have the capacity to work the E170s. Additionally, from my understanding there's also an ongoing dispute between the city and AA over the usage of the facilities at ABI since the city owns them. This could be why UA is starting service because AA may be pulling out. Of course this is speculation. I know the last time I flew in there was in early 2019 and the maint. base looked deserted with no aircraft and hangar facilities closed up. Also, the last time I went to ABI the SF3s were in the process of being broken up and scrapped on site.

Something there isn’t correct. ABI has been doing the induction of the frames transferred from CP. One was just completed in the last few days.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:20 pm

codc10 wrote:
slider wrote:
I'll admit to being perplexed by these routes. Cherry-picking point to point stuff has a place these days, I'm sure.

But when traffic is so depressed overall, and capacity, why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud. Kirby seems frenetic when he talks about his strategy for the network, because UA is doing just the opposite of what he's publicly said before.

I wish them well but this just seems so superfluous. I remember all these long-standing midwest-FL routes; there's a reason they aren't there much anymore.


I'm told that most of these flights are not daily; in fact, a few are Saturday-only flights with a limited season (Nov-Jan), so we aren't talking about extensive operations. It won't be 28 flights every day, despite the language of the release.

Which route is Saturday only? Can you name one?
 
AirlineFanatic
Posts: 216
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:51 pm

Goes without saying, point to point LGA/BOS-FL routes are retaliation to B6 expansion at EWR and LAX.
Last edited by AirlineFanatic on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
AirlineFanatic
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:52 pm

jfk777 wrote:
United, where is the love for PBI ? Your expansion involves almost every major Florida airport except MIA.



Goes without saying, point to point LGA/BOS-FL routes are retaliation to B6 expansion at EWR and LAX.
 
codc10
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:08 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
codc10 wrote:
slider wrote:
I'll admit to being perplexed by these routes. Cherry-picking point to point stuff has a place these days, I'm sure.

But when traffic is so depressed overall, and capacity, why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud. Kirby seems frenetic when he talks about his strategy for the network, because UA is doing just the opposite of what he's publicly said before.

I wish them well but this just seems so superfluous. I remember all these long-standing midwest-FL routes; there's a reason they aren't there much anymore.


I'm told that most of these flights are not daily; in fact, a few are Saturday-only flights with a limited season (Nov-Jan), so we aren't talking about extensive operations. It won't be 28 flights every day, despite the language of the release.

Which route is Saturday only? Can you name one?


They are currently in the schedule as daily, but I don’t think the expectation is for every flight to eventually operate ever day. It will be interesting to watch how the schedule evolves.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:11 pm

slider wrote:
why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud.


It might be that some of UAs hubs are in cities/locations that currently have (and might continue to have) mandatory quarantines for visitors arriving from certain states/regions. Who would want to fly from MKE through ORD and end up on a 14-day lockdown on your return from a state that is on Chicago's personal "do not allow" list? Fly n/s Florida to MKE/IND/CMH etc and head straight home or back to work.
 
N649DL
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:14 pm

tphuang wrote:
STT757 wrote:
United1 wrote:
LGA-MCO x2, LGA-TPA, LGA-FLL x2 and LGA-RSW....there are flights from BOS and CLE as well.

Looking for a link but I just got an email from UA.


So we finally answered what UA was going to do with the LGA slots they were using for LGA-CLE (5X daily).


I really don't expect these LGA routes to last very long. Like a lot of adds by other carriers, these seem to be added with the goal of capturing Florida demand that will likely come back over the winter time. Hard to see these routes do well with UA's cost level. UA just doesn't have enough pricing power at LGA.

Of course, if you are B6/AA, you will probably see this as a retaliation. Now, DL might retaliate against UA with some EWR adds also.


Man, I would love to see DL step back in and add back some EWR-Florida routes. In all likelihood I could see DL add seasonal 1x 739ER on EWR-MCO and maybe EWR-PBI (two former Song 757 routes.) EWR-FLL seems to be a dogfight nowadays that I doubt they would want to step into.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:23 pm

N649DL wrote:
tphuang wrote:
STT757 wrote:

So we finally answered what UA was going to do with the LGA slots they were using for LGA-CLE (5X daily).


I really don't expect these LGA routes to last very long. Like a lot of adds by other carriers, these seem to be added with the goal of capturing Florida demand that will likely come back over the winter time. Hard to see these routes do well with UA's cost level. UA just doesn't have enough pricing power at LGA.

Of course, if you are B6/AA, you will probably see this as a retaliation. Now, DL might retaliate against UA with some EWR adds also.


Man, I would love to see DL step back in and add back some EWR-Florida routes. In all likelihood I could see DL add seasonal 1x 739ER on EWR-MCO and maybe EWR-PBI (two former Song 757 routes.) EWR-FLL seems to be a dogfight nowadays that I doubt they would want to step into.


EWR-MIA would actually make sense with the LATAM tie up.
 
TomJoel
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:26 pm

TXRoadMan wrote:
TomJoel wrote:
I've got an acquaintance who works at the XNA maint. base who told me that ABI was being closed as early as this year since ABI doesn't have the capacity to work the E170s. Additionally, from my understanding there's also an ongoing dispute between the city and AA over the usage of the facilities at ABI since the city owns them. This could be why UA is starting service because AA may be pulling out. Of course this is speculation. I know the last time I flew in there was in early 2019 and the maint. base looked deserted with no aircraft and hangar facilities closed up. Also, the last time I went to ABI the SF3s were in the process of being broken up and scrapped on site.

Something there isn’t correct. ABI has been doing the induction of the frames transferred from CP. One was just completed in the last few days.


I'm not sure what's going on because I only fly to ABI for work purposes and even then I try to avoid it. I don't understand what UA is trying to accomplish by flying this route other than a cash grab.
 
drdisque
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:35 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
slider wrote:
why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud.


It might be that some of UAs hubs are in cities/locations that currently have (and might continue to have) mandatory quarantines for visitors arriving from certain states/regions. Who would want to fly from MKE through ORD and end up on a 14-day lockdown on your return from a state that is on Chicago's personal "do not allow" list? Fly n/s Florida to MKE/IND/CMH etc and head straight home or back to work.


If you are a Wisconsin resident you are able to travel through ORD (either drive to ORD and fly or connect there) to wherever you want and are not subject to any Chicago quarantine rules. The rules are only for people who live in or are going to stay in Chicago/Cook County.

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