strfyr51
Posts: 4484
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:58 pm

codc10 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
codc10 wrote:

Sad but true. The Battleship livery also represents a particularly turbulent period for United (ESOP, SFH, 9/11, Ch. 11), inclusive of a time where thousands of current employees made tremendous concessions and simultaneously lost pensions, share value, etc.

The distant retro-liveries create more touchy-feely nostalgia, combined with the fact that very few present employees (probably none in the case of the CO retrojet) were actually around for those respective eras.

United was by far the best airline in the 1990s, IMO, and immensely enjoyable as a customer. That was a time when the airline grew, especially abroad, took on many modern aircraft like the 744, 319/320, and 777. The product back then was really good and they were truly a global airline and innovative one. Things like e-tickets, easy checkin, founding Star Alliance, launching the 777, new DEN, and Shuttle (which was enormously successful prior to 9/11). Regardless of how 9/11 hurt UA and helped steer them to a Ch11, I’ve never once talked to a UA employee in my travels that didn’t love United. Certain CEOs? Maybe. But they loved UA.

I didn’t like the Battleship when it came out and I would never choose it over the Rainbow livery, but at this point I’d give a kidney to see even a shred of UA.


I am not beholden to liveries and symbolism, but you’re missing a major point if you simply gloss over the long-term structural issues that led to United’s bankruptcy... it wasn’t just 9/11.

United’s employees sacrificed tremendous promised value in the form of the failed ESOP, post-9/11 concessions and canceled pensions that were directly tied to management incompetence.

United management rode the 90s boom times HARD... and the fall was indicative of it. Sadly it was born by the rank-and-file, not the people who sold them down the river.

you are so right! Richard Ferris wanted to use United as some piggy bank he could shake to but Hilton Hotels, the Westin Hotels ,Macadamia Nots, Hertz, Then demanded that the Airline produce 25 Cents on the Dollar in profits or he would do to US what Canteen Corp did to TWA, And? He was stupid enough to tell us to our Faces an an afternoon meeting. He didn't last the Week! ALPA initiated a buyout that same week and Allegis, Ferris, Hartigan and the other Cronies who were going to set up the Corporate Jet division Avolar were all GONE the following month!!
 
UAinAUS
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:11 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:26 am

UAX Update:

CR5:
N615QX has been reregistered as N520GJ, exited MLB with interior mod and now at AMA for EvoBlu livery
N642CA exited AMA in EvoBlu livery, now at MLB for interior mod
N612QX (2002 build) ferried STL prior to CR5 mods, will become N507GJ
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3148
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:09 am

Thanks CALTECH on the MAX10. The extra 8 inches up front would allow 24F or 22 LieFlat and the lavs would be about 8 inches more forward than I surmised. Y seats should be the same as starting Y more toward the front makes up for the reduction in added length behind the wing.
 
777-500er
Posts: 500
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:43 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:15 am

Has anyone published international route adjustments for April 2020?
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:30 am

argentinevol98 wrote:
GoSharks wrote:
cosyr wrote:
But if UA really wanted to offer something different, they could be the first airline to offer domestic Premium Plus. Just put in 3 rows of 5 across PP seats, then half Y+ and half regular Y, it would be brilliant!

argentinevol98 wrote:
I've also thought for a while now as well that there was a market for a 2-3 W product for transcons with probably like 36" or perhaps up to 38" pitch.
UA already offers PP on the 787-10 transcon flights. It’s been what, 6 months?
I was mainly referring to a product on a dedicated narrowbody fleet. No one is offering that right now and it seems, to me at least, that there might be room for something like that, though I admit that I am no market expert.

When I compare the united.com domestic first and Premium Plus product descriptions side by side, they read to me to be nearly identical. (Premium Plus gets you discounted Club access, First gets you complementary Club access.)

I don't know if that's an argument for or against Premium Plus on a 737-10.

On the one hand, the 787-10s on premium transcons call the lie-flat cabin "business" and it'd be weird to market the big upright seats cabin as "first." Business-first-Economy Plus-economy.

On the other hand, HD 777s and 757-200s doing domestic runs call their lie-flat cabins "first."

If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "business," calling an upright big seats cabin "premium economy" would make sense. If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "first," calling an upright big seats cabin "business" might be clearer.

Maybe that's a distinction without a difference, though.

Tangentially related, I find it interesting that Delta on their KEF and PDL services flies domestic 757s and calls the cabin that would be "first" domestically "premium economy" in those markets. The products have feature parity and it lets Delta keep marketing all of their Atlantic services as "100% lie-flat in business."
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 77W 788 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:31 am

777-500er wrote:
Has anyone published international route adjustments for April 2020?

They're in the OAG thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1442531
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 77W 788 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
codc10
Posts: 2714
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:18 am

adamblang wrote:
argentinevol98 wrote:
GoSharks wrote:
UA already offers PP on the 787-10 transcon flights. It’s been what, 6 months?
I was mainly referring to a product on a dedicated narrowbody fleet. No one is offering that right now and it seems, to me at least, that there might be room for something like that, though I admit that I am no market expert.

When I compare the united.com domestic first and Premium Plus product descriptions side by side, they read to me to be nearly identical. (Premium Plus gets you discounted Club access, First gets you complementary Club access.)

I don't know if that's an argument for or against Premium Plus on a 737-10.

On the one hand, the 787-10s on premium transcons call the lie-flat cabin "business" and it'd be weird to market the big upright seats cabin as "first." Business-first-Economy Plus-economy.

On the other hand, HD 777s and 757-200s doing domestic runs call their lie-flat cabins "first."

If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "business," calling an upright big seats cabin "premium economy" would make sense. If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "first," calling an upright big seats cabin "business" might be clearer.

Maybe that's a distinction without a difference, though.

Tangentially related, I find it interesting that Delta on their KEF and PDL services flies domestic 757s and calls the cabin that would be "first" domestically "premium economy" in those markets. The products have feature parity and it lets Delta keep marketing all of their Atlantic services as "100% lie-flat in business."


UA already sells PE in the domestic market at a differential premium fare on 787 flights EWR-LAX/SFO, between Y fares and the premium (J) cabin. No reason to think they’d do anything differently in other markets if they indeed put a PE cabin in a premium 737-10 and deploy it in other markets. For one-off/irregular service/equipment swaps, the PE cabin is sold as E+.
 
argentinevol98
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:40 pm

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:26 am

adamblang wrote:
argentinevol98 wrote:
GoSharks wrote:
UA already offers PP on the 787-10 transcon flights. It’s been what, 6 months?
I was mainly referring to a product on a dedicated narrowbody fleet. No one is offering that right now and it seems, to me at least, that there might be room for something like that, though I admit that I am no market expert.

When I compare the united.com domestic first and Premium Plus product descriptions side by side, they read to me to be nearly identical. (Premium Plus gets you discounted Club access, First gets you complementary Club access.)

I don't know if that's an argument for or against Premium Plus on a 737-10.

On the one hand, the 787-10s on premium transcons call the lie-flat cabin "business" and it'd be weird to market the big upright seats cabin as "first." Business-first-Economy Plus-economy.

On the other hand, HD 777s and 757-200s doing domestic runs call their lie-flat cabins "first."

If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "business," calling an upright big seats cabin "premium economy" would make sense. If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "first," calling an upright big seats cabin "business" might be clearer.

Maybe that's a distinction without a difference, though.

Tangentially related, I find it interesting that Delta on their KEF and PDL services flies domestic 757s and calls the cabin that would be "first" domestically "premium economy" in those markets. The products have feature parity and it lets Delta keep marketing all of their Atlantic services as "100% lie-flat in business."


Regardless of whether UA markets the lie-flat seats as First or Business I'd probably still market a 2-3 (or even 2-2) upright product as Premium Plus on a transcon. It's probably mainly business travelers on the route and they likely have "business" in their minds as being lie-flat anyway. Would avoid customer confusion/frustration.
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3148
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:48 am

772:
N77019 sked to exit HKG 2700/11Mar, should have Polaris/PP, seat map not updated.

N219UA making another RT GUM-HKG to deliver pilots.
Not sure what's going on in XMN and HKG, but I believe both have dropped 1 mod line in the last couple weeks. No 772s with old configurations look like they are pulling out of revenue service in the next few days. With all the aircraft sitting due to China and other cancellations, you'd think UA could relegate the few remaining 772s w/o Polaris to be spares or flying domestic upgrades. Maybe N219UA will swap with N77012 later this week, but that would further reduce the Polaris mod lines from what I think was 7 to 4.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 3883
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:58 am

The fleet changes, fleet status, and repaint status posts at the start of this thread have been updated.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
jayunited
Posts: 2551
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:16 pm

tphuang wrote:
I think what you are talking about here is unrealistic. B6 with mint has far lower cost than UA and even they don't think it's justifiable to put mint on JFK-DEN or JFK-FLL/PBI.

Keep in mind the existing mint schedule uses at least 35 aircraft for about 45 R/T. And B6 utilizes their fleet at a rate that's much higher than legacy airlines. So 50 737-10 might only enable UA to do about 50 R/T a day.

That could be
16 EWR-SFO R/T
12 EWR-LAX
7 BOS-SFO
4 EWR-SAN
3 EWR-LAS
3 EWR-SEA
4 IAD-SFO
3 IAD-LAX

This will already be 50 R/T


When did I ever say list EWR-DEN as a possibility for the MAX10? As a matter of fact I clear stated no interior hub would see the MAX10. The reason I stated EWR-FLorida could be a possibility because UA already uses lie flat seating on our EWR-MCO flights and we have been using RR757s on a few of those flights for quite some time. There have also been times where UA has deployed our RR engined 752 on EWR-TPA, but they rotate on an off the EWR-TPA regularly.

Looking at your list are you saying the only aircraft that will be flown on EWR-SFO and EWR-LAX will be MAX10s? Do you expect UA to pull all 77Ws 77As, 78Xs and 789s from these routes?
Last edited by jayunited on Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4246
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:32 pm

As I grapple with these brand architecture issues almost everyday, and developing nomenclature and information hierarchy that consumers will understand. I realize some of this is due to some of the historical ways people DO understand. YES, it is a bit strange that United no longer has a TRUE FIRST cabin on international flights, yet domestic 737’s & A320/19’s do have “FIRST CLASS”.
United has 2 target audiences (3 if you count their internal audience)
But externally, the 2 are:
1: Their enormous FF base who are very familiar with all-things United
2: The very large group that are NOT truly aware of the differences, be that a 752 & 753 or a WB that currently could be a “Polaris” seat, a Diamond seat or the old ITPE lie flat found on many High Density 772’s.
(Even folks who fly UA often because they live in SF) One recently called me after flying a 777 from SF to ORD. I believe he was on a HD 772, but he seriously thought “THAT” was “Polaris” and asked how I could actually like Polaris if was one of those old “no storage, tight squeeze” lie flats, and he had purchased “First Class”. I tried explaining everything to him. His ultimate reply “this is why I use my MP miles to fly internationally on another Star Alliance airline!” He’s Premier Platinum because he flies SFO/RDU RT 2x a month. I believe the day he actually flies Polaris on a 77W, he will be pleasantly surprised.
United owns one of the worst words in all consumer marketing: “Plus” (if/when the world changes again and moves back to having a TRUE INTERNATIONAL FIRST CLASS, what will UA do? Will a new much bigger seat and service be called “Global First” then “Polaris Business” or would global First be called “Polaris Plus?”

One day (about a year or two) there will only be 3 lie flat seat variants: New Polaris, A321XLR Polaris and domestic HD 772’s. When that day comes I think the cabins should be named after seat type:
Polaris International
Polaris NB (A321XLR & 737-10)
Polaris Domestic (for flights when Polaris International or Polaris NB’s) are used on domestic route.
Domestic Bed (HD 772’s)
Domestic Lounger

I HATE the name “Premium Economy” for the international purple seats. They are NOT “Economy” seats in any way! I think they would sound far more desirable if they were called:
“Premium Lounger” or even
“Purple Lounger”

“Economy” nomenclature is perfectly fine, as is they are very easy to understand:
“Economy Plus”
“Economy”
“Basic Economy”

I don’t believe many people check or understand the seat maps when buying tickets on line. The yellow corn kernels for Diamond seats vs the more complex looking Polaris seat maps- not unless you are a serious UA heavy user.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
User avatar
cosyr
Posts: 1444
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:39 pm

VC10er wrote:
One day (about a year or two) there will only be 3 lie flat seat variants: New Polaris, A321XLR Polaris and domestic HD 772’s. When that day comes I think the cabins should be named after seat type:
Polaris International
Polaris NB (A321XLR & 737-10)
Polaris Domestic (for flights when Polaris International or Polaris NB’s) are used on domestic route.
Domestic Bed (HD 772’s)
Domestic Lounger

I HATE the name “Premium Economy” for the international purple seats. They are NOT “Economy” seats in any way! I think they would sound far more desirable if they were called:
“Premium Lounger” or even
“Purple Lounger”

“Economy” nomenclature is perfectly fine, as is they are very easy to understand:
“Economy Plus”
“Economy”
“Basic Economy”

I don’t believe many people check or understand the seat maps when buying tickets on line. The yellow corn kernels for Diamond seats vs the more complex looking Polaris seat maps- not unless you are a serious UA heavy user.

A marketing manager at Continental I spoke to just before the merger about a Premium Economy explained to me that more and more companies have policies that you have to fly Economy, so by including Economy in the name, some would be able to get around that. I thought simply "Premium Class" would have a good ring to it, and United obviously didn't think that Economy was necessary in the name when they chose Premium Plus, but they already had Economy Plus, so anything else with Economy in the name might have been more confusing to their customers than at other airlines.

I've talked about Premium Economy to lots of non frequent flyers, and none of them get it. Several would say they just flew in Economy Plus, and I would have to explain, extra legroom is not the same thing as Premium Economy.
 
tphuang
Posts: 4156
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:47 pm

jayunited wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I think what you are talking about here is unrealistic. B6 with mint has far lower cost than UA and even they don't think it's justifiable to put mint on JFK-DEN or JFK-FLL/PBI.

Keep in mind the existing mint schedule uses at least 35 aircraft for about 45 R/T. And B6 utilizes their fleet at a rate that's much higher than legacy airlines. So 50 737-10 might only enable UA to do about 50 R/T a day.

That could be
16 EWR-SFO R/T
12 EWR-LAX
7 BOS-SFO
4 EWR-SAN
3 EWR-LAS
3 EWR-SEA
4 IAD-SFO
3 IAD-LAX

This will already be 50 R/T


When did I ever say list EWR-DEN as a possibility for the MAX10? As a matter of fact I clear stated no interior hub would see the MAX10. The reason I stated EWR-FLorida could be a possibility because UA already uses lie flat seating on our EWR-MCO flights and we have been using RR757s on a few of those flights for quite some time. There have also been times where UA has deployed our RR engined 752 on EWR-TPA, but they rotate on an off the EWR-TPA regularly.

Looking at your list are you saying the only aircraft that will be flown on EWR-SFO and EWR-LAX will be MAX10s? Do you expect UA to pull all 77Ws 77As, 78Xs and 789s from these routes?

I was replying to VC10ers

As for replacing widebodies with MAX10, that would really depend on whether UA wants to chase the low yielding y + connection traffic they'd need in order to fill the widebodies. They are now getting lower yield than AA/DL/B6 on JFK-LAX. I'm sure part of that is due to having to fill widebodies which have more cheap seats. It wasn't that long ago when both DL/B6 had lower yield on JFK-LAX than UA on EWR-LAX. I was simply giving a rough breakdown to show what they could. Just to show that even 50 MAX10 doesn't go as far as some people think.

They could also do fewer on EWR-SFO/LAX and then have more for IAD-LAX/SFO/SAN or SFO-ATL/RDU/YYZ. Of course, that makes sense too.

btw, with this config, don't you think A321XLR will have more than 16 J now?
 
VC10er
Posts: 4246
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:05 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
alasizon wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I think what you are talking about here is unrealistic. B6 with mint has far lower cost than UA and even they don't think it's justifiable to put mint on JFK-DEN or JFK-FLL/PBI.

Keep in mind the existing mint schedule uses at least 35 aircraft for about 45 R/T. And B6 utilizes their fleet at a rate that's much higher than legacy airlines. So 50 737-10 might only enable UA to do about 50 R/T a day.

That could be
16 EWR-SFO R/T
12 EWR-LAX
7 BOS-SFO
4 EWR-SAN
3 EWR-LAS
3 EWR-SEA
4 IAD-SFO
3 IAD-LAX

This will already be 50 R/T


EWR-SFO isn't going to be 16x daily 737-10 though (nor would EWR-LAX be 12x daily) as that would detract from the existing HD 772 routes.

Realistically, you're looking at 8-10 EWR-SFO and 6-7 EWR-LAX (assuming the HD 772 continues to run at the same frequencies and the 787s no longer are doing hub to hub which is unlikely).

BOS-SFO is currently 6x daily so 7x isn't out of the realm of possibility but that is a large increase in J seats.

I don't see EWR-LAS or EWR-SEA going all 737-10 either (maybe 1x daily each).

That leaves you with:
10x EWR-SFO
7x EWR-LAX
6x BOS-SFO
4x EWR-SAN
3x IAD-SFO
2x IAD-LAX
1x EWR-LAS
1x EWR-SEA
1x SFO-RDU (my personal opinion on a route it'll be used on)

That is roughly ~450 block hours per day. Assuming an average utilization of 16 hours per day (well within reason given transcon allows for high utilization when there are hubs on both ends); that is right around 28.5 frames.

I'm also a little doubtful on all of the transcon hub to hub being lie-flat as UA may need to rotate some 738/739s between bases.


It seems you don’t really have the full picture of the EWR - LAX/SFO market. If the routes were operated exclusively by a 737-10 at frequencies ranging between 7-10x a day, a lot of capacity would be lost. Right now SFO is scheduled to operated 15x daily and 12x for LAX. Yet, the Max is way smaller than the wide bodies and 757s that frequent the route (Absolutely no 737s). So even if we wanted to throw in a few 772s or 78Xs we’re still at a loss of capacity. An ideal combo would be,

SFO
12x 737-10
3x 772
2x 787-10

LAX
10x 737-10
2x 772
2x 78X


I personally believe that UA would reap both business and brand image rewards if any UA 4+ hour flights got the 22 lie flat 737-10’s on some long routes such as (but not only) SFO/MIA or EWR/SAN. As for routes like EWR/LAS, I was not thinking every flight, but 1 or 2 a day. Same for other big hubs to some places like MIA. NYC/MIA currently has 2/3 752’s a day. One is timed perfectly for the 3pm “Hotel Check-in’s”, Cruises. Miami is called NYC’s 6th borough for a reason. So, while a regular 737 or A320 is fine for some flight times, MANY who virtually commute to MIA, it’s a great way for UA to attract the wealthy but avoid starting a price war. (And add a small UC at MIA!) - competition to MIA is hot, and UA 1) sees many UA tails in one day, but 2) is in last place with MIA being a particularly bad UA outpost on enemy soil!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4246
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:18 pm

tphuang wrote:
jayunited wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I think what you are talking about here is unrealistic. B6 with mint has far lower cost than UA and even they don't think it's justifiable to put mint on JFK-DEN or JFK-FLL/PBI.

Keep in mind the existing mint schedule uses at least 35 aircraft for about 45 R/T. And B6 utilizes their fleet at a rate that's much higher than legacy airlines. So 50 737-10 might only enable UA to do about 50 R/T a day.

That could be
16 EWR-SFO R/T
12 EWR-LAX
7 BOS-SFO
4 EWR-SAN
3 EWR-LAS
3 EWR-SEA
4 IAD-SFO
3 IAD-LAX

This will already be 50 R/T


When did I ever say list EWR-DEN as a possibility for the MAX10? As a matter of fact I clear stated no interior hub would see the MAX10. The reason I stated EWR-FLorida could be a possibility because UA already uses lie flat seating on our EWR-MCO flights and we have been using RR757s on a few of those flights for quite some time. There have also been times where UA has deployed our RR engined 752 on EWR-TPA, but they rotate on an off the EWR-TPA regularly.

Looking at your list are you saying the only aircraft that will be flown on EWR-SFO and EWR-LAX will be MAX10s? Do you expect UA to pull all 77Ws 77As, 78Xs and 789s from these routes?

I was replying to VC10ers

As for replacing widebodies with MAX10, that would really depend on whether UA wants to chase the low yielding y + connection traffic they'd need in order to fill the widebodies. They are now getting lower yield than AA/DL/B6 on JFK-LAX. I'm sure part of that is due to having to fill widebodies which have more cheap seats. It wasn't that long ago when both DL/B6 had lower yield on JFK-LAX than UA on EWR-LAX. I was simply giving a rough breakdown to show what they could. Just to show that even 50 MAX10 doesn't go as far as some people think.

They could also do fewer on EWR-SFO/LAX and then have more for IAD-LAX/SFO/SAN or SFO-ATL/RDU/YYZ. Of course, that makes sense too.

btw, with this config, don't you think A321XLR will have more than 16 J now?


I was not saying to replace WB flying with more 73X’s, my point was simply adding more lie flat First flights domestically as per my above “thoughts”. Even if it was only adding “some more” NYC to ORD, LAS, MIA and SFO/LAX/ORD on long NB flights, EWR/ DEN, etc.Not every frequency, just that UA could legally make a claim at their HUBS “More domestic flat bed First Class seats than any other US airline!”
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
codc10
Posts: 2714
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:15 pm

VC10er wrote:
Not every frequency, just that UA could legally make a claim at their HUBS “More domestic flat bed First Class seats than any other US airline!”


UA can probably already make that claim.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2551
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:50 pm

tphuang wrote:
I was replying to VC10ers

As for replacing widebodies with MAX10, that would really depend on whether UA wants to chase the low yielding y + connection traffic they'd need in order to fill the widebodies. They are now getting lower yield than AA/DL/B6 on JFK-LAX. I'm sure part of that is due to having to fill widebodies which have more cheap seats. It wasn't that long ago when both DL/B6 had lower yield on JFK-LAX than UA on EWR-LAX. I was simply giving a rough breakdown to show what they could. Just to show that even 50 MAX10 doesn't go as far as some people think.

They could also do fewer on EWR-SFO/LAX and then have more for IAD-LAX/SFO/SAN or SFO-ATL/RDU/YYZ. Of course, that makes sense too.

btw, with this config, don't you think A321XLR will have more than 16 J now?


You are correct 50 frames on cross country routes doesn't go very far. Many of UA's 75Ks (28J and 114Y) only do 2 roundtrips a day some manage to squeeze out 1.5 roundtrips everyday.

Just so it is clear I'm only talking about the 75Ks not the 75Bs (16J and 153), the reason I have excluded the 75Bs is because those frames can fly for example BOS-SFO-DEN-LAX or some variation whereas our 75Ks strictly fly coast to coast routes only like EWR-SFO-BOS.

Having said that I still think the widebodies stay even on LAX-EWR-LAX route. It is no secret that UA is the weakest of the US3 at LAX and the yield problem does not seem to carry over to our SFO-EWR-SFO route. UA has to figure out a way to be more competitive in the LAX market without sacrificing yield especially on LAX-EWR-LAX route because you are correct we have fallen behind our peers in terms of yield on that route.

As far as the A321XLRs I can see why you asked the question, and to be honest I don't know the answer. For now UA is stating 16J on the A321XLRs but that of course could change between now and 2024.
 
mcg
Posts: 1015
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:06 pm

argentinevol98 wrote:
adamblang wrote:
argentinevol98 wrote:
I was mainly referring to a product on a dedicated narrowbody fleet. No one is offering that right now and it seems, to me at least, that there might be room for something like that, though I admit that I am no market expert.

When I compare the united.com domestic first and Premium Plus product descriptions side by side, they read to me to be nearly identical. (Premium Plus gets you discounted Club access, First gets you complementary Club access.)

I don't know if that's an argument for or against Premium Plus on a 737-10.

On the one hand, the 787-10s on premium transcons call the lie-flat cabin "business" and it'd be weird to market the big upright seats cabin as "first." Business-first-Economy Plus-economy.

On the other hand, HD 777s and 757-200s doing domestic runs call their lie-flat cabins "first."

If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "business," calling an upright big seats cabin "premium economy" would make sense. If the 737-10 domestic lie-flat product is going to be marketed as "first," calling an upright big seats cabin "business" might be clearer.

Maybe that's a distinction without a difference, though.

Tangentially related, I find it interesting that Delta on their KEF and PDL services flies domestic 757s and calls the cabin that would be "first" domestically "premium economy" in those markets. The products have feature parity and it lets Delta keep marketing all of their Atlantic services as "100% lie-flat in business."


Regardless of whether UA markets the lie-flat seats as First or Business I'd probably still market a 2-3 (or even 2-2) upright product as Premium Plus on a transcon. It's probably mainly business travelers on the route and they likely have "business" in their minds as being lie-flat anyway. Would avoid customer confusion/frustration.



FWIW in the 1960's CO configured their 707's and 727's coach section with 2-3 seating. 100% bought my dad's business and loyalty.
 
Runway28L
Posts: 2049
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:35 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:38 am

B772 N206UA ferrying ORD-FTW for EvoBlu paint.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flight/UA2744
 
VC10er
Posts: 4246
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:45 am

codc10 wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Not every frequency, just that UA could legally make a claim at their HUBS “More domestic flat bed First Class seats than any other US airline!”


UA can probably already make that claim.


Well that is a very interesting answer because I have often wondered (I simply do not know AA and DL well enough) if United does indeed fly more flat bed seats (of some sort) domestically than AA or DL. As I fly less today than I did from 1991 to 2015, I tend to stick to United as much as possible for status reasons. It does seem that MANY of my UA destinations will have a 752 or 763 or HD 772 more than once a day. And now with (18?) HD 772’s zipping around, I was curious: does AA or DL have a HD WB equivalent to UA’s HD 772 people movers?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
ILikeTrains
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:18 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:25 pm

VC10er wrote:
codc10 wrote:
VC10er wrote:
Not every frequency, just that UA could legally make a claim at their HUBS “More domestic flat bed First Class seats than any other US airline!”


UA can probably already make that claim.


Well that is a very interesting answer because I have often wondered (I simply do not know AA and DL well enough) if United does indeed fly more flat bed seats (of some sort) domestically than AA or DL. As I fly less today than I did from 1991 to 2015, I tend to stick to United as much as possible for status reasons. It does seem that MANY of my UA destinations will have a 752 or 763 or HD 772 more than once a day. And now with (18?) HD 772’s zipping around, I was curious: does AA or DL have a HD WB equivalent to UA’s HD 772 people movers?


Neither DL or AA have a HD WB. The highest seat count plane for AA is their 77W which seats 304, and Delta has the A359 at 306 seats.
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3148
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:45 pm

772:
N219UA shows cancelled for RT GUM-XMN 2/11, expected to provide crew for N77019
N783UA sked to enter GUM from SFO 2750/10Mar, positioning for XMN entry?
N77019 sked to exit HKG 2700/11Mar at 1100am, don't see an inbound to provide crew

789:
N19954 entered VCV paint 2754/9Mar
 
VC10er
Posts: 4246
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:29 pm

ILikeTrains wrote:
VC10er wrote:
codc10 wrote:

UA can probably already make that claim.


Well that is a very interesting answer because I have often wondered (I simply do not know AA and DL well enough) if United does indeed fly more flat bed seats (of some sort) domestically than AA or DL. As I fly less today than I did from 1991 to 2015, I tend to stick to United as much as possible for status reasons. It does seem that MANY of my UA destinations will have a 752 or 763 or HD 772 more than once a day. And now with (18?) HD 772’s zipping around, I was curious: does AA or DL have a HD WB equivalent to UA’s HD 772 people movers?


Neither DL or AA have a HD WB. The highest seat count plane for AA is their 77W which seats 304, and Delta has the A359 at 306 seats.


I could probably guess why United felt the need for a sizable fleet of LARGE high density aircraft, and AA and DL did not. But, I would be guessing! And it’s not as if United needed 4 or 6 of them, I believe it’s “19” of them?
And while the “First Class” lie flat is a quite old version of lie flats, no storage and tight, depending on the trip length...it’s FAR better than an upright chair. (Oddly, in bed mode I find them to be quite comfortable) and I’m happy to get one after a long hard day, even if it’s only ORD to EWR.

So, does anyone know how the idea for them came to be? Was it born out of necessity or them being odd ducks vs other 772’s?

Why wouldn’t AA or DL want something similar between hubs? Is it that their route systems don’t need them? Or, they didn’t have the capacity in their fleets?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
User avatar
cosyr
Posts: 1444
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:52 pm

VC10er wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:
VC10er wrote:

Well that is a very interesting answer because I have often wondered (I simply do not know AA and DL well enough) if United does indeed fly more flat bed seats (of some sort) domestically than AA or DL. As I fly less today than I did from 1991 to 2015, I tend to stick to United as much as possible for status reasons. It does seem that MANY of my UA destinations will have a 752 or 763 or HD 772 more than once a day. And now with (18?) HD 772’s zipping around, I was curious: does AA or DL have a HD WB equivalent to UA’s HD 772 people movers?


Neither DL or AA have a HD WB. The highest seat count plane for AA is their 77W which seats 304, and Delta has the A359 at 306 seats.


I could probably guess why United felt the need for a sizable fleet of LARGE high density aircraft, and AA and DL did not. But, I would be guessing! And it’s not as if United needed 4 or 6 of them, I believe it’s “19” of them?
And while the “First Class” lie flat is a quite old version of lie flats, no storage and tight, depending on the trip length...it’s FAR better than an upright chair. (Oddly, in bed mode I find them to be quite comfortable) and I’m happy to get one after a long hard day, even if it’s only ORD to EWR.

So, does anyone know how the idea for them came to be? Was it born out of necessity or them being odd ducks vs other 772’s?

Why wouldn’t AA or DL want something similar between hubs? Is it that their route systems don’t need them? Or, they didn’t have the capacity in their fleets?

AA used to have a high density Widebody. Their A300's were that, which is why they went from NY to Puerto Rico, when that used to be one of the busiest North American routes. People were always surprised when I pointed out that the A300 was AA's highest capacity planes, more than the larger 772's and MD-11's.

I think that AA and DL are less interested in high capacity hub-to-hub, because both have one mega hub where almost everyone in the country can get from more combinations of cities with one connection (ATL and DFW). UA has always been a bit more regional with their hubs, and defined coastal hubs with different purposes. Living in SYR, there are many places in the world that I would have to connect twice on UA.
 
Qantas59
Posts: 168
Joined: Sat May 04, 2013 4:51 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:59 pm

Was N77006 the first 777-200 in the new c/s?
[photoid][photoid][/photoid][/photoid]/Users/jaytanguay/Desktop/Screen Shot 2016-10-27 at 9.30.09 AM.png
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3148
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:09 pm

N77006 was first 772ER to get EvoBlu livery.
N210UA and N771UA, 772A Domestic units previously received new livery.
 
Okcflyer
Posts: 600
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 11:10 pm

Re: United to fly the 737-10 with a premium Configuration

Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:45 pm

VC10er wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:
VC10er wrote:

Well that is a very interesting answer because I have often wondered (I simply do not know AA and DL well enough) if United does indeed fly more flat bed seats (of some sort) domestically than AA or DL. As I fly less today than I did from 1991 to 2015, I tend to stick to United as much as possible for status reasons. It does seem that MANY of my UA destinations will have a 752 or 763 or HD 772 more than once a day. And now with (18?) HD 772’s zipping around, I was curious: does AA or DL have a HD WB equivalent to UA’s HD 772 people movers?


Neither DL or AA have a HD WB. The highest seat count plane for AA is their 77W which seats 304, and Delta has the A359 at 306 seats.


I could probably guess why United felt the need for a sizable fleet of LARGE high density aircraft, and AA and DL did not. But, I would be guessing! And it’s not as if United needed 4 or 6 of them, I believe it’s “19” of them?
And while the “First Class” lie flat is a quite old version of lie flats, no storage and tight, depending on the trip length...it’s FAR better than an upright chair. (Oddly, in bed mode I find them to be quite comfortable) and I’m happy to get one after a long hard day, even if it’s only ORD to EWR.

So, does anyone know how the idea for them came to be? Was it born out of necessity or them being odd ducks vs other 772’s?

Why wouldn’t AA or DL want something similar between hubs? Is it that their route systems don’t need them? Or, they didn’t have the capacity in their fleets?


Short, bullet-version:

-UA is the only USA carrier with 772 models (not ER’s), the earliest range-limited models.
-UA since the very beginning, UA has ran these in HD/Hawaii configs from west coast, which is an area they’re strong, especially SFO.
-UA was in the worst-position mainline fleet wise several years ago. Converting internationally configured birds from short haul East-Coast to West Europe routes to the current HD format was the quickest way to boost the domestic mainline fleet. New aircraft deliveries would take years to build.

If working from a clean sheet of paper, It’s not a winning strategy and it won’t last forever.

In UA’s case, the only other reasonable option for these would be scrapping. Going the HD route provides better outcomes than the alternative. And so here we are.

Reality is, two 739’s burn almost the same amount of fuel as a single 772. The 772 carries almost the same number of pax. (28 lay flat vs 40 domestic first being the biggest difference.

For yield and flexibility, the 2 739’s is a far better solution.

Widebodies are heavy. Heavier per pax than NB’s. They’re generally less rugged for heavy cycle counts (domestic use) and all in maintenance costs are more than what 2 NB run. (My opinion, I don’t have figures to back this statement)

So the advantage of the HD format is with slot limitations, cargo if valuable, and the fact the 777HD’s can stretch to 8-9 hours range vs 6 of current NB’s.

Reality is, if this downturn is prolonged, this fleet will shrink hella fast. It’s more less optimistic utilization of existing assets when the domestic NB fleet is already too small driving the need.

With the 4 ER’s being added, there will help on Hawaii flying from East Coast where currently utilization of international config is suboptimal.
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1865
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:04 pm

Some developments on the wires:

March 10 (Reuters) - United Airlines Holdings Inc (UAL):

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS NOT TAKING DELIVERY OF A SINGLE AIRCRAFT - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS OUR GROSS BOOKINGS IN THE PACIFIC ARE DOWN ABOUT 70% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, GROSS BOOKINGS ARE NOW DOWN ABOUT 50% IN EUROPE - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, DOMESTICALLY, CURRENTLY SEEING NET BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 70% AND GROSS BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 25% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS PLANNING FOR DOMESTIC BOOKINGS TO DETERIORATE FURTHER IN THE WEEKS TO COME - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS IT COULD TAKE 18 MTHS FOR A FULL RECOVERY - JP MORGAN CONF

.....

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS CAPEX WILL NOT COME BACK FOR 2-4 YEARS

It was all fun while it lasted I guess....
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
FSDan
Posts: 2997
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:11 pm

intotheair wrote:
Some developments on the wires:

March 10 (Reuters) - United Airlines Holdings Inc (UAL):

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS NOT TAKING DELIVERY OF A SINGLE AIRCRAFT - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS OUR GROSS BOOKINGS IN THE PACIFIC ARE DOWN ABOUT 70% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, GROSS BOOKINGS ARE NOW DOWN ABOUT 50% IN EUROPE - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, DOMESTICALLY, CURRENTLY SEEING NET BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 70% AND GROSS BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 25% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS PLANNING FOR DOMESTIC BOOKINGS TO DETERIORATE FURTHER IN THE WEEKS TO COME - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS IT COULD TAKE 18 MTHS FOR A FULL RECOVERY - JP MORGAN CONF

.....

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS CAPEX WILL NOT COME BACK FOR 2-4 YEARS

It was all fun while it lasted I guess....


Dang. This sucks!
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 888
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:27 pm

FSDan wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Some developments on the wires:

March 10 (Reuters) - United Airlines Holdings Inc (UAL):

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS NOT TAKING DELIVERY OF A SINGLE AIRCRAFT - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS OUR GROSS BOOKINGS IN THE PACIFIC ARE DOWN ABOUT 70% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, GROSS BOOKINGS ARE NOW DOWN ABOUT 50% IN EUROPE - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, DOMESTICALLY, CURRENTLY SEEING NET BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 70% AND GROSS BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 25% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS PLANNING FOR DOMESTIC BOOKINGS TO DETERIORATE FURTHER IN THE WEEKS TO COME - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS IT COULD TAKE 18 MTHS FOR A FULL RECOVERY - JP MORGAN CONF

.....

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS CAPEX WILL NOT COME BACK FOR 2-4 YEARS

It was all fun while it lasted I guess....


Dang. This sucks!


Holy Crap - domestic net bookings down 70% from last year! :shock:

Is this just over Q1 or also advanced bookings into the summer?
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6054
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:32 pm

FSDan wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Some developments on the wires:

March 10 (Reuters) - United Airlines Holdings Inc (UAL):

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS NOT TAKING DELIVERY OF A SINGLE AIRCRAFT - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS OUR GROSS BOOKINGS IN THE PACIFIC ARE DOWN ABOUT 70% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, GROSS BOOKINGS ARE NOW DOWN ABOUT 50% IN EUROPE - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, DOMESTICALLY, CURRENTLY SEEING NET BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 70% AND GROSS BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 25% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS PLANNING FOR DOMESTIC BOOKINGS TO DETERIORATE FURTHER IN THE WEEKS TO COME - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS IT COULD TAKE 18 MTHS FOR A FULL RECOVERY - JP MORGAN CONF

.....

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS CAPEX WILL NOT COME BACK FOR 2-4 YEARS

It was all fun while it lasted I guess....


Dang. This sucks!


Can’t imagine it’s better for anyone else.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 597
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:32 pm

FSDan wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Some developments on the wires:

March 10 (Reuters) - United Airlines Holdings Inc (UAL):

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS NOT TAKING DELIVERY OF A SINGLE AIRCRAFT - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS OUR GROSS BOOKINGS IN THE PACIFIC ARE DOWN ABOUT 70% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, GROSS BOOKINGS ARE NOW DOWN ABOUT 50% IN EUROPE - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, DOMESTICALLY, CURRENTLY SEEING NET BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 70% AND GROSS BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 25% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS PLANNING FOR DOMESTIC BOOKINGS TO DETERIORATE FURTHER IN THE WEEKS TO COME - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS IT COULD TAKE 18 MTHS FOR A FULL RECOVERY - JP MORGAN CONF

.....

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS CAPEX WILL NOT COME BACK FOR 2-4 YEARS

It was all fun while it lasted I guess....


Dang. This sucks!


And somehow UAL stock is up 10-12%

This is where I shrug my shoulders and realize I will never understand the stock market, but god bless those that do.
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1865
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:37 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
And somehow UAL stock is up 10-12%

This is where I shrug my shoulders and realize I will never understand the stock market, but god bless those that do.


That's probably a result of President Trump saying he'll provide help to the airlines, though he hasn't given specifics just yet.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-am ... 18261.html
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
FSDan
Posts: 2997
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:41 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Some developments on the wires:

March 10 (Reuters) - United Airlines Holdings Inc (UAL):

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS NOT TAKING DELIVERY OF A SINGLE AIRCRAFT - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS OUR GROSS BOOKINGS IN THE PACIFIC ARE DOWN ABOUT 70% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, GROSS BOOKINGS ARE NOW DOWN ABOUT 50% IN EUROPE - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, DOMESTICALLY, CURRENTLY SEEING NET BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 70% AND GROSS BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 25% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS PLANNING FOR DOMESTIC BOOKINGS TO DETERIORATE FURTHER IN THE WEEKS TO COME - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS IT COULD TAKE 18 MTHS FOR A FULL RECOVERY - JP MORGAN CONF

.....

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS CAPEX WILL NOT COME BACK FOR 2-4 YEARS

It was all fun while it lasted I guess....


Dang. This sucks!


Can’t imagine it’s better for anyone else.


Yeah, I'm saying that on a macro level.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 597
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:06 pm

intotheair wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
And somehow UAL stock is up 10-12%

This is where I shrug my shoulders and realize I will never understand the stock market, but god bless those that do.


That's probably a result of President Trump saying he'll provide help to the airlines, though he hasn't given specifics just yet.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-am ... 18261.html


Yeah you're right.

Just funny to see them give such doom and gloom news and then see the stock price have shot up.
We'll see what DJT gives the airlines.
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:06 pm

Very sad to hear UA is going to shrink! It is surprising that UA management has no plan to enhance customer experience with COVID19 to get people back on their planes. I read yesterday that UA is making it harder to change flights during a schedule change. That is not a way to attract customers.
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1424
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:22 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Very sad to hear UA is going to shrink! It is surprising that UA management has no plan to enhance customer experience with COVID19 to get people back on their planes. I read yesterday that UA is making it harder to change flights during a schedule change. That is not a way to attract customers.


What are you talking about? Enhance the experience? People aren't flying because they don't want to get sick, aren't allowed to travel due to corporate restrictions, and don't want to risk a 2 week quarantine should they fall ill or go into a risk area either intentionally or by accident. No amount of enhancements or price drops are going to change those possible scenarios until the virus is contained. There are no plausible ways to attract customers right now.

We are looking at the potential financial global collapse of the airline industry and cruise industry. The knock on impact is to the hotel, car hire, taxi/Uber, aircraft manufacture, airline staff, etc.
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1269
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:32 pm

To clarify about UA not taking any deliveries, it is only for aircraft they are unable to obtain financing for, which they said they aircraft financing is still doing really well...they just obtained financing for a 787 last week.

Pi7472000 wrote:
Very sad to hear UA is going to shrink! It is surprising that UA management has no plan to enhance customer experience with COVID19 to get people back on their planes. I read yesterday that UA is making it harder to change flights during a schedule change. That is not a way to attract customers.


The schedule change policy is being way overblown. It only affects tickets if the airline is unable to get you there within 25 hours of your original time, so basically the same day. This rarely would ever be the case even if a non-stop flight is discontinued, adding a connection would very unlikely result in a delay of 25 hours to your destination.
 
User avatar
CALTECH
Posts: 3399
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:21 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:54 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Very sad to hear UA is going to shrink! It is surprising that UA management has no plan to enhance customer experience with COVID19 to get people back on their planes. I read yesterday that UA is making it harder to change flights during a schedule change. That is not a way to attract customers.


Wow, 'enhance customer experience with COVID19 to get people back on their planes.'
Covid19 is the very reason no 'enhancement will get people back on planes.'
Wow.
You are here.
 
tphuang
Posts: 4156
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:58 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
intotheair wrote:
Some developments on the wires:

March 10 (Reuters) - United Airlines Holdings Inc (UAL):

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS NOT TAKING DELIVERY OF A SINGLE AIRCRAFT - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS OUR GROSS BOOKINGS IN THE PACIFIC ARE DOWN ABOUT 70% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, GROSS BOOKINGS ARE NOW DOWN ABOUT 50% IN EUROPE - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS, DOMESTICALLY, CURRENTLY SEEING NET BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 70% AND GROSS BOOKINGS DOWN ABOUT 25% - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED AIRLINES PRESIDENT SAYS PLANNING FOR DOMESTIC BOOKINGS TO DETERIORATE FURTHER IN THE WEEKS TO COME - JP MORGAN CONF

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS IT COULD TAKE 18 MTHS FOR A FULL RECOVERY - JP MORGAN CONF

.....

* UNITED PRESIDENT SAYS CAPEX WILL NOT COME BACK FOR 2-4 YEARS

It was all fun while it lasted I guess....


Dang. This sucks!


And somehow UAL stock is up 10-12%

This is where I shrug my shoulders and realize I will never understand the stock market, but god bless those that do.

Kirby is getting ahead of curve and making the changes needed to ensure united airlines have plenty of cash through the worst case scenario.

That kind of stuff encourages investors.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4151
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:33 pm

tphuang wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
FSDan wrote:

Dang. This sucks!


And somehow UAL stock is up 10-12%

This is where I shrug my shoulders and realize I will never understand the stock market, but god bless those that do.

Kirby is getting ahead of curve and making the changes needed to ensure united airlines have plenty of cash through the worst case scenario.

That kind of stuff encourages investors.


Scott has his hands full by assuming control of the airline at the beginning of a difficult time. This will be a good test of his leadership abilities.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6054
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:37 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Very sad to hear UA is going to shrink! It is surprising that UA management has no plan to enhance customer experience with COVID19 to get people back on their planes. I read yesterday that UA is making it harder to change flights during a schedule change. That is not a way to attract customers.


Do you mean enhance the flying experience by giving flyers COVID-19 or enhance the flying experience of people with COVID-19?
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
jayunited
Posts: 2551
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:30 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
Very sad to hear UA is going to shrink! It is surprising that UA management has no plan to enhance customer experience with COVID19 to get people back on their planes. I read yesterday that UA is making it harder to change flights during a schedule change. That is not a way to attract customers.


Why are people getting so bent out of shape over the change to the refund policy. Most people are not effected by the policy change which only states that if UA can not accommodate you within 25 hours of your original departure time you can request a refund. However the part most people missed was where the policy stated you do not have to accept the itinerary changes and can still request a refund. I get it 25 hours v.s. 2 hours can seem like an eternity but if the alternate options provided do not meet your needs UA will still refund you your money and agents do not have to wait for the 25 hour clock to expire.

What I find kind of funny is how social media and some in regular media seem to believe just because UA has been the most vocal in our plans and the only US carrier to really lead in trying to manage the fallout from COVID-19 that somehow means UA is shrinking or in some type of financial trouble, when the exact opposite is true. UA has a very strong balance sheet, our debt is very much under control and the steps UA has already announced are necessary to stay in front of the coronavirus. Just from listening to the news across the country major coporate events and trade shows are being canceled, major corporations have suspended all corporate travel and have advised their employees to avoid nonessential travel. After China was suspended there was a slight uptick in domestic travel and people were shifting their spring break plans which is why for the first half of March our load factors have held. But as we enter the second half of March and April and as COVID-19 spreads here in the U.S. cancellations are rising. Could it be that some airlines are hoping COVID-19 disappears as the weather warms? That could be the case but what happens if the number of cases in the US continue to rise and April bookings remain at their current level or worse continue to fall. With UA's high number of union represented employees failure to act in an appropriate time frame could cost UA money. An airline like UA has to act now to what we are seeing in April and by the end of March we will have to make a decision about May. An airline like DL which has a much smaller union work force can wait and let more time pass before they make decisions because most of their workforce has no protection or contract that DL has to follow. So DL can pull capacity out of their network with little lead in time and bank the savings, whereas UA because of union contracts wouldn't see any savings at all. Why AA which has a high number of union employees hasn't announced any major changes domestically I don't know but don't assume that just because AA and DL are silent for the moment that UA is the airline that is in the most trouble or that UA is now shrinking. I think a lot of people in the US (myself included are/were in denial) about the spread of this virus simply because the US was not testing people. Here in Chicago over the past 3 days since the US has started testing more people Chicago has gone from 4 cases to 11 cases of confirmed coronavirus and the state of Illinois over that same time period has gone from 4 cases to 19 confirmed cases and that is just over the past 3 days. Imagine how much higher that number will go as more people are tested and then imagine the impact those higher number will have on domestic air travel.
 
Judge1310
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:28 am

jayunited wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Very sad to hear UA is going to shrink! It is surprising that UA management has no plan to enhance customer experience with COVID19 to get people back on their planes. I read yesterday that UA is making it harder to change flights during a schedule change. That is not a way to attract customers.


Why are people getting so bent out of shape over the change to the refund policy. Most people are not effected by the policy change which only states that if UA can not accommodate you within 25 hours of your original departure time you can request a refund. However the part most people missed was where the policy stated you do not have to accept the itinerary changes and can still request a refund. I get it 25 hours v.s. 2 hours can seem like an eternity but if the alternate options provided do not meet your needs UA will still refund you your money and agents do not have to wait for the 25 hour clock to expire.

What I find kind of funny is how social media and some in regular media seem to believe just because UA has been the most vocal in our plans and the only US carrier to really lead in trying to manage the fallout from COVID-19 that somehow means UA is shrinking or in some type of financial trouble, when the exact opposite is true. UA has a very strong balance sheet, our debt is very much under control and the steps UA has already announced are necessary to stay in front of the coronavirus. Just from listening to the news across the country major coporate events and trade shows are being canceled, major corporations have suspended all corporate travel and have advised their employees to avoid nonessential travel. After China was suspended there was a slight uptick in domestic travel and people were shifting their spring break plans which is why for the first half of March our load factors have held. But as we enter the second half of March and April and as COVID-19 spreads here in the U.S. cancellations are rising. Could it be that some airlines are hoping COVID-19 disappears as the weather warms? That could be the case but what happens if the number of cases in the US continue to rise and April bookings remain at their current level or worse continue to fall. With UA's high number of union represented employees failure to act in an appropriate time frame could cost UA money. An airline like UA has to act now to what we are seeing in April and by the end of March we will have to make a decision about May. An airline like DL which has a much smaller union work force can wait and let more time pass before they make decisions because most of their workforce has no protection or contract that DL has to follow. So DL can pull capacity out of their network with little lead in time and bank the savings, whereas UA because of union contracts wouldn't see any savings at all. Why AA which has a high number of union employees hasn't announced any major changes domestically I don't know but don't assume that just because AA and DL are silent for the moment that UA is the airline that is in the most trouble or that UA is now shrinking. I think a lot of people in the US (myself included are/were in denial) about the spread of this virus simply because the US was not testing people. Here in Chicago over the past 3 days since the US has started testing more people Chicago has gone from 4 cases to 11 cases of confirmed coronavirus and the state of Illinois over that same time period has gone from 4 cases to 19 confirmed cases and that is just over the past 3 days. Imagine how much higher that number will go as more people are tested and then imagine the impact those higher number will have on domestic air travel.



*slow clap* :yes: :thumbsup:
 
tphuang
Posts: 4156
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:35 am

jayunited wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
Very sad to hear UA is going to shrink! It is surprising that UA management has no plan to enhance customer experience with COVID19 to get people back on their planes. I read yesterday that UA is making it harder to change flights during a schedule change. That is not a way to attract customers.


Why are people getting so bent out of shape over the change to the refund policy. Most people are not effected by the policy change which only states that if UA can not accommodate you within 25 hours of your original departure time you can request a refund. However the part most people missed was where the policy stated you do not have to accept the itinerary changes and can still request a refund. I get it 25 hours v.s. 2 hours can seem like an eternity but if the alternate options provided do not meet your needs UA will still refund you your money and agents do not have to wait for the 25 hour clock to expire.

What I find kind of funny is how social media and some in regular media seem to believe just because UA has been the most vocal in our plans and the only US carrier to really lead in trying to manage the fallout from COVID-19 that somehow means UA is shrinking or in some type of financial trouble, when the exact opposite is true. UA has a very strong balance sheet, our debt is very much under control and the steps UA has already announced are necessary to stay in front of the coronavirus. Just from listening to the news across the country major coporate events and trade shows are being canceled, major corporations have suspended all corporate travel and have advised their employees to avoid nonessential travel. After China was suspended there was a slight uptick in domestic travel and people were shifting their spring break plans which is why for the first half of March our load factors have held. But as we enter the second half of March and April and as COVID-19 spreads here in the U.S. cancellations are rising. Could it be that some airlines are hoping COVID-19 disappears as the weather warms? That could be the case but what happens if the number of cases in the US continue to rise and April bookings remain at their current level or worse continue to fall. With UA's high number of union represented employees failure to act in an appropriate time frame could cost UA money. An airline like UA has to act now to what we are seeing in April and by the end of March we will have to make a decision about May. An airline like DL which has a much smaller union work force can wait and let more time pass before they make decisions because most of their workforce has no protection or contract that DL has to follow. So DL can pull capacity out of their network with little lead in time and bank the savings, whereas UA because of union contracts wouldn't see any savings at all. Why AA which has a high number of union employees hasn't announced any major changes domestically I don't know but don't assume that just because AA and DL are silent for the moment that UA is the airline that is in the most trouble or that UA is now shrinking. I think a lot of people in the US (myself included are/were in denial) about the spread of this virus simply because the US was not testing people. Here in Chicago over the past 3 days since the US has started testing more people Chicago has gone from 4 cases to 11 cases of confirmed coronavirus and the state of Illinois over that same time period has gone from 4 cases to 19 confirmed cases and that is just over the past 3 days. Imagine how much higher that number will go as more people are tested and then imagine the impact those higher number will have on domestic air travel.


I think UA has done a lot of right moves here. I'm extremely impressed by Kirby's leadership. I'm sure he would not be interested, but having a guy like that in charge of JetBlue would be great. Anyhow, my view is that AA simply has no clue what they are doing here and are just waiting for gov't bailout in the likely event they run out of cash. America right now is already at around 1000 cases and that's with a lot of people not being able to get tested. The actual number will undoubtedly be much higher once all the testing kits are ready. I would not be surprised if more firms just tell their employees to work from home for a couple of weeks.

And a lot of the corporate travel spending cuts are also cost cutting they are making (using this as an excuse) to reduce spending in the likelihood that economy is going bad.

At times like this, UA's actions will be very prudent. Keep in mind, I do believe that UA is hurting from this more than AA due to the fact that UA's strength Asia and continental Europe are the most effected spots. That's also why strong leadership is needed at this time. And I think UA employees have a lot to thank for with Kirby in charge.
 
United1
Posts: 3977
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:20 am

tphuang wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
FSDan wrote:

Dang. This sucks!


And somehow UAL stock is up 10-12%

This is where I shrug my shoulders and realize I will never understand the stock market, but god bless those that do.

Kirby is getting ahead of curve and making the changes needed to ensure united airlines have plenty of cash through the worst case scenario.

That kind of stuff encourages investors.


One quick correction to intotheairs notes:

UA is not planning on taking delivery of any aircraft that is not financed....ie they are not paying for it with cash. They also elected to not purchase a few aircraft off of lease rather they signed short term leases which is part of their plan to reduce Capex.

They also lined up $2 billion in financing and still have their undrawn revolver loan for another $2 billion if they need it. That gives them $8 billion in liquidity as of today. UA also announced they have roughly $20 billion in unencumbered assets they could use for additional liquidity if they need it.

Net net UA is fairly well positioned to come through this.

The numbers UA put out regarding revenue are really bad but keep in mind they are UAs doomsday scenario numbers and they do expect reality to be better than projected.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
User avatar
calpsafltskeds
Posts: 3148
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:29 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:29 am

319:
N835UA re-entered servic 3/9/20 after storage/HMV/12F mod at GYR

738:
N38417 entered VCV 2761/10Mar for EvoBlu livery, 1st 739 to receive

752:
N14115 entered GYR 2756/9Mar, storage, maint?
N13138 entered GYR 2761/5Mar, storage, maint?

763:
N644UA entered MCO 2751/10Mar

772:
N77019 exited AMA 2725/10Mar in EvoBlu livery
 
MBASS
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:14 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 3:23 pm

calpsafltskeds wrote:

772:
N77019 exited AMA 2725/10Mar in EvoBlu livery


Shouldn’t this be N79011? N77019 is in HKG, for Polaris.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4246
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:02 pm

United1 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:

And somehow UAL stock is up 10-12%

This is where I shrug my shoulders and realize I will never understand the stock market, but god bless those that do.

Kirby is getting ahead of curve and making the changes needed to ensure united airlines have plenty of cash through the worst case scenario.

That kind of stuff encourages investors.


One quick correction to intotheairs notes:

UA is not planning on taking delivery of any aircraft that is not financed....ie they are not paying for it with cash. They also elected to not purchase a few aircraft off of lease rather they signed short term leases which is part of their plan to reduce Capex.

They also lined up $2 billion in financing and still have their undrawn revolver loan for another $2 billion if they need it. That gives them $8 billion in liquidity as of today. UA also announced they have roughly $20 billion in unencumbered assets they could use for additional liquidity if they need it.

Net net UA is fairly well positioned to come through this.

The numbers UA put out regarding revenue are really bad but keep in mind they are UAs doomsday scenario numbers and they do expect reality to be better than projected.


Such an interesting and insightful read United1 - thank you!
Perhaps the reason UAL stock has risen is because institutional investors know a lot of this and are placing bets on United? Even I was considering buying UAL stock now because I know when the time comes, United will bounce back.

I read what United is doing on United/HUB, it's very reassuring! The rigorous cleaning of aircraft and more. Tomorrow I'm on a UA flight to LA on a 787-10, and in a Polaris seat. (I do have disinfectant wipes with me) and I will feel safer in that seat. Frankly, I am FAR more concerned over my Uber car from LAX than my flight!

Yesterday I was in 4 Ubers, how many people were in there before me?

Leadership indeed counts. But United’s culture as a company was already in a great place before. The enormous investments in hard products and Lounges, etc are not going anywhere and will be there ready to go when this nightmare is over.

Bravo to the frontline people at United and ALL airlines and hospitality related companies. ALL of my clients have closed their offices, people working from home: ALL TRAVEL IS BANNED! But not only that! My clients are even forbidden to meet with people who have flown in for meetings. So even if I was to fly to Geneva to meet my client in a cafe (NOT ALLOWED! Not for business reasons anyway)
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos