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atcsundevil
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DC Airports Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:39 pm

This is a continuation of the previous DC/VA/MD Thread. It will now only be for the DC Airports (IAD, DCA, BWI).

Please continue from last year's discussion - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411837
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:56 pm

The Project Journey work at DCA appears to be on time for opening in July 2021 according to recent MWAA presentation documents. Interestingly though, in contrast, the new security procedures and screening operation is lagging pretty significantly. Initial contract opening was in March 2021, and now not expected until winter 2021.
 
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:15 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
The Project Journey work at DCA appears to be on time for opening in July 2021 according to recent MWAA presentation documents. Interestingly though, in contrast, the new security procedures and screening operation is lagging pretty significantly. Initial contract opening was in March 2021, and now not expected until winter 2021.


I ride by on the Metro daily; and it seems clear that the work has stalled. I gather from the presentations that they found more issues with the soils and foundations than expected which has caused the delays.
 
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:51 pm

blockski wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
The Project Journey work at DCA appears to be on time for opening in July 2021 according to recent MWAA presentation documents. Interestingly though, in contrast, the new security procedures and screening operation is lagging pretty significantly. Initial contract opening was in March 2021, and now not expected until winter 2021.


I ride by on the Metro daily; and it seems clear that the work has stalled. I gather from the presentations that they found more issues with the soils and foundations than expected which has caused the delays.

There was an article about it in the Post yesterday. There were a number of site prep issues that have forced a number of design changes, it sounds like. Between soil issues and unmarked utilities, it's creating some challenges. It's always challenging trying to construct anything where old infrastructure previously existed. It sounds like they're expecting a full opening of the project in late 2021.
 
blockski
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:33 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
blockski wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
The Project Journey work at DCA appears to be on time for opening in July 2021 according to recent MWAA presentation documents. Interestingly though, in contrast, the new security procedures and screening operation is lagging pretty significantly. Initial contract opening was in March 2021, and now not expected until winter 2021.


I ride by on the Metro daily; and it seems clear that the work has stalled. I gather from the presentations that they found more issues with the soils and foundations than expected which has caused the delays.

There was an article about it in the Post yesterday. There were a number of site prep issues that have forced a number of design changes, it sounds like. Between soil issues and unmarked utilities, it's creating some challenges. It's always challenging trying to construct anything where old infrastructure previously existed. It sounds like they're expecting a full opening of the project in late 2021.


Yes, I saw that article.

Riding by on the Metro yesterday, it sure looked like there was some new excavation for utilities near the north checkpoint. The south checkpoint was further along before work slowed down.

All in all, I think the airport has handled the disruption fairly well. The free 60 min parking for picking up and dropping off passengers is a nice feature, particularly since the cell phone lot is closed.

I noticed that Dulles is also now offering free parking for the first 60 min at the two garages closest to the terminal. It’s not nearly as convenient at IAD for picking someone up, but it will be interesting to see how that works to help relieve curbside congestion at peak hours.
 
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:25 pm

blockski wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
The Project Journey work at DCA appears to be on time for opening in July 2021 according to recent MWAA presentation documents. Interestingly though, in contrast, the new security procedures and screening operation is lagging pretty significantly. Initial contract opening was in March 2021, and now not expected until winter 2021.


I ride by on the Metro daily; and it seems clear that the work has stalled. I gather from the presentations that they found more issues with the soils and foundations than expected which has caused the delays.


Just a month ago, METRO said the Silver Line extension to Dulles line should be ready to roll in the summer of this year.

https://wtop.com/tracking-metro-24-7/20 ... -optimism/
 
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:07 pm

blockski wrote:
I noticed that Dulles is also now offering free parking for the first 60 min at the two garages closest to the terminal. It’s not nearly as convenient at IAD for picking someone up, but it will be interesting to see how that works to help relieve curbside congestion at peak hours.

They've also been doing the holiday drop off as well. They're doing all kinds of construction on the lower drop off area, which is long overdue. They desperately need to get traffic moving through faster during the peak afternoon rush. 30+ minute waits just to get from 28 to the terminal is crazy. Hopefully whatever they're doing will alleviate some of that.

crjflyboy wrote:
Just a month ago, METRO said the Silver Line extension to Dulles line should be ready to roll in the summer of this year.

https://wtop.com/tracking-metro-24-7/20 ... -optimism/

Metro's operator, the WMATA, definitely did not say it would be ready by summer. The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority, who is responsible for construction of the Silver Line, has said it will be ready by summer. That's a very important difference. WMATA has expressed deep concerns over safety and cost issues with the project, and their IG has thus far advised them not to accept the project until the numerous issues are addressed. If they aren't, and WMATA doesn't accept the project from MWAA, then obviously there will be no trains rolling. The MWAA has said the issues are being addressed, but it also seems like they're failing to acknowledge a number of ongoing concerns from WMATA. Given the delays and tight timeline, it seems unlikely to me that the issues will be resolved to accommodate MWAA's extremely optimistic schedule. I would go so far as to say that I'm not sure it'll even be running by the end of 2020, but I hope I'm wrong.
 
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:24 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
blockski wrote:
I noticed that Dulles is also now offering free parking for the first 60 min at the two garages closest to the terminal. It’s not nearly as convenient at IAD for picking someone up, but it will be interesting to see how that works to help relieve curbside congestion at peak hours.

They've also been doing the holiday drop off as well. They're doing all kinds of construction on the lower drop off area, which is long overdue. They desperately need to get traffic moving through faster during the peak afternoon rush. 30+ minute waits just to get from 28 to the terminal is crazy. Hopefully whatever they're doing will alleviate some of that.

crjflyboy wrote:
Just a month ago, METRO said the Silver Line extension to Dulles line should be ready to roll in the summer of this year.

https://wtop.com/tracking-metro-24-7/20 ... -optimism/

Metro's operator, the WMATA, definitely did not say it would be ready by summer. The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority, who is responsible for construction of the Silver Line, has said it will be ready by summer. That's a very important difference. WMATA has expressed deep concerns over safety and cost issues with the project, and their IG has thus far advised them not to accept the project until the numerous issues are addressed. If they aren't, and WMATA doesn't accept the project from MWAA, then obviously there will be no trains rolling. The MWAA has said the issues are being addressed, but it also seems like they're failing to acknowledge a number of ongoing concerns from WMATA. Given the delays and tight timeline, it seems unlikely to me that the issues will be resolved to accommodate MWAA's extremely optimistic schedule. I would go so far as to say that I'm not sure it'll even be running by the end of 2020, but I hope I'm wrong.


Do have anything, media wise to prove your assertion, 99% done sounds like they ironing out the last details ... enlighten everyone with your proof
 
N737ER
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:02 am

crjflyboy wrote:
Just a month ago, METRO said the Silver Line extension to Dulles line should be ready to roll in the summer of this year.

https://wtop.com/tracking-metro-24-7/20 ... -optimism/


Nowhere in the WTOP article linked does WMATA say it will be rolling in Summer. MWAA seems to think otherwise

The airports authority remains confident that the line could open next July or August. This summer, they set a target of around July 16, 2020, based on all known issues with the project and likely solutions.

This is MWAA giving a date, not WMATA. In fact according to that article, WMATA hasn't even included Silver Pase 2 in their 2020 operations budget. It is also mentioned in that article that WMATA hasn't even figured on a revenue service start date yet.

crjflyboy wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Metro's operator, the WMATA, definitely did not say it would be ready by summer. The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority, who is responsible for construction of the Silver Line, has said it will be ready by summer. That's a very important difference. WMATA has expressed deep concerns over safety and cost issues with the project, and their IG has thus far advised them not to accept the project until the numerous issues are addressed. If they aren't, and WMATA doesn't accept the project from MWAA, then obviously there will be no trains rolling. The MWAA has said the issues are being addressed, but it also seems like they're failing to acknowledge a number of ongoing concerns from WMATA. Given the delays and tight timeline, it seems unlikely to me that the issues will be resolved to accommodate MWAA's extremely optimistic schedule. I would go so far as to say that I'm not sure it'll even be running by the end of 2020, but I hope I'm wrong.


Do have anything, media wise to prove your assertion, 99% done sounds like they ironing out the last details ... enlighten everyone with your proof


This should do; from the Washington Post (Paywall?) dated 28 Dec 2019
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

Chief among the problems Wiedefeld has cited: defective rail ties that were manufactured with too much curvature and could cause trains to tilt outward when they move over those areas. The problem was first identified more than a year ago, but the parties have not been able to agree on a solution.

Metro wants CRC to replace the defective rail ties, but the contractor has refused, instead proposing several other solutions including using shims to level out the ties. Metro has rejected those remedies because they present difficult long-term maintenance challenges.

Further down in the article:

Construction of the rail yard, which is being built by Hensel Phelps, has also been problematic. Metro inspector general Geoffrey Cherrington, who has been conducting his own evaluation of the project, said Metro’s consultants found there were too many small pieces of rock in the ballast for the track beds, which could cause drainage issues and cause the rocks to shift. If not fixed, the movement could cause tracks to shift as trains travel on them. In several management alerts issued in the fall, Cherrington urged Metro not to accept the project unless that and other issues were resolved.

Emphasis is mine to substantiate atcsundevil's point. With recent history it seems as though forcing MWAA and contractors to do this correctly before taking over a line is one of the more prudent things WMATA has done in recent memory, even if it does sacrafice rail to Dulles for a few months.
 
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:11 am

Two projects for BWI going into 2020: the Concourse A extension and the Southwest mx hangar. The Concourse A extension is well underway and I believe will be followed by a temporary closure of gates A1-A5 to address baggage handling facilities. As for the Southwest hangar, I have still heard or seen nothing about that. Is that project still a go?
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:53 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
Do have anything, media wise to prove your assertion, 99% done sounds like they ironing out the last details ... enlighten everyone with your proof

You can start by reading your own article, because it's apparent that either you didn't read the entire article, or you don't understand the arrangements of the various entities in the project. It's the MWAA and CRC making the assertions that it's 99% complete and should be open by summer. WMATA has planned to accept the project then, but that's provided that their concerns are addressed, which they haven't been.

Also from your article:
Reports from Metro, the airports authority and construction contractors indicate that there has been significant progress on a number of issues, but there is not yet agreement on fixes for a few others.


Those "few others" are literally hundreds of major items. Switches, concrete panels, defective sleepers.. I don't know if you've ever been involved in any sort of building project, but the punch list on a project of this size would literally number in the tens of thousands. Generally they're easily resolvable, but given the numerous quality control issues suffered on this project, they aren't easily resolvable. Until now, MWAA/CRC have failed to acknowledge a number of the issues as even being a problem, but if they aren't addressed, then WMATA won't accept the line.

If your own article and numerous articles in the Washington Post, NBC4, ABC7, and others aren't enough to convince you that there are major hindrances to the line being opened, then I'd invite you to do a Google search to enlighten yourself. They are all credible sources, and if you don't agree with that, then it's your job to find agreeable sources on your own; that's not our job.
 
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:46 pm

I have a good friend at WMATA who is intimately involved in some of the approvals and review of the trackage and yard work. He is not at all optimistic that the revised delivery date (this summer) is manageable. For one he mentioned that the defects on the concrete ties is become more apparent and that has a major effect on the ability to even run tests on the system. He also referred to geometry of the crossovers and switches which would require either realignment to meet correct tilt angles or replacement of the switch tracks.
 
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:25 pm

The other factor to consider is that it is very unlikely that operating revenues will cover operating expenses on Phase 2 of the silver line for a number of years. It is my understanding that WMATA is looking for a commitment from the stakeholders to cover the revenue shortfall in order to relieve the pressure on the transit system.
 
blockski
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:53 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
I have a good friend at WMATA who is intimately involved in some of the approvals and review of the trackage and yard work. He is not at all optimistic that the revised delivery date (this summer) is manageable. For one he mentioned that the defects on the concrete ties is become more apparent and that has a major effect on the ability to even run tests on the system. He also referred to geometry of the crossovers and switches which would require either realignment to meet correct tilt angles or replacement of the switch tracks.


My read on the MWAA/WMATA issues is that almost all can and will be resolved. The biggest challenge will be on the concrete issues. The solution that MWAA and the contractor are pushing will involve a substantial maintenance burden for the rest of the life of those panels (all stemming from fraud on the part of a subcontractor). The physical remedy isn't likely going to change, but the question will also be what financial offer will be made to WMATA before WMATA accepts that responsibility.
 
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:31 pm

We'll know very soon if the Silver Line is opening this summer. WMATA needs a window for training and other operational prep items after MWAA hands over the keys.

If the handover isn't complete by April it's not coming online this summer. If we're talking June and the "summer season" it needs to happen by February.
 
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:09 pm

There was an update from an airline pilot central Guy.


IAD is now the 2nd most profitable hub. Planning to grow major there. Currently @270 dep a day, planned to go to 450+ dep a day with 7 banks. Because of this planning a major upgrade to terminal and facilities now. Said he is very excited about the potential at IAD due to it not being gate and space limited.

Not sure IAD has ever been that busy
 
UALFAson
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:41 pm

Bluewho wrote:
There was an update from an airline pilot central Guy.


IAD is now the 2nd most profitable hub. Planning to grow major there. Currently @270 dep a day, planned to go to 450+ dep a day with 7 banks. Because of this planning a major upgrade to terminal and facilities now. Said he is very excited about the potential at IAD due to it not being gate and space limited.

Not sure IAD has ever been that busy


You realize April Fool's Day isn't for 3 more months. This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this site. Where is UA going to get the airframes to double their operation at IAD? Is he talking about going to 450 departures a day with 7 banks in the next 20 years? The only thing worse than pilot gossip is flight attendant gossip.
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Bluewho
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:09 am

UALFAson wrote:
Bluewho wrote:
There was an update from an airline pilot central Guy.


IAD is now the 2nd most profitable hub. Planning to grow major there. Currently @270 dep a day, planned to go to 450+ dep a day with 7 banks. Because of this planning a major upgrade to terminal and facilities now. Said he is very excited about the potential at IAD due to it not being gate and space limited.

Not sure IAD has ever been that busy


You realize April Fool's Day isn't for 3 more months. This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this site. Where is UA going to get the airframes to double their operation at IAD? Is he talking about going to 450 departures a day with 7 banks in the next 20 years? The only thing worse than pilot gossip is flight attendant gossip.


Hey just passing on what the guy said.
 
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:22 am

UALFAson wrote:
Bluewho wrote:
There was an update from an airline pilot central Guy.


IAD is now the 2nd most profitable hub. Planning to grow major there. Currently @270 dep a day, planned to go to 450+ dep a day with 7 banks. Because of this planning a major upgrade to terminal and facilities now. Said he is very excited about the potential at IAD due to it not being gate and space limited.

Not sure IAD has ever been that busy


You realize April Fool's Day isn't for 3 more months. This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this site. Where is UA going to get the airframes to double their operation at IAD? Is he talking about going to 450 departures a day with 7 banks in the next 20 years? The only thing worse than pilot gossip is flight attendant gossip.


Not gossip, I’ve personally heard Scott and Ankit discuss this. They believe the IAD hub supports 450 departures, not to say it will get there this summer. As far as airframes, were it not for the Max debacle you’d be seeing a very different UAL. You can do a lot with 35 additional 737Max narrowbodies, not to mention all of the used Airbus and widebodies being delivered.
 
Bluewho
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:35 am

guppyflyer wrote:
UALFAson wrote:
Bluewho wrote:
There was an update from an airline pilot central Guy.


IAD is now the 2nd most profitable hub. Planning to grow major there. Currently @270 dep a day, planned to go to 450+ dep a day with 7 banks. Because of this planning a major upgrade to terminal and facilities now. Said he is very excited about the potential at IAD due to it not being gate and space limited.

Not sure IAD has ever been that busy


You realize April Fool's Day isn't for 3 more months. This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this site. Where is UA going to get the airframes to double their operation at IAD? Is he talking about going to 450 departures a day with 7 banks in the next 20 years? The only thing worse than pilot gossip is flight attendant gossip.


Not gossip, I’ve personally heard Scott and Ankit discuss this. They believe the IAD hub supports 450 departures, not to say it will get there this summer. As far as airframes, were it not for the Max debacle you’d be seeing a very different UAL. You can do a lot with 35 additional 737Max narrowbodies, not to mention all of the used Airbus and widebodies being delivered.



Other than the INDY United war has IAD ever had that much flying from United?
 
N292UX
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:12 am

Bluewho wrote:
There was an update from an airline pilot central Guy.


IAD is now the 2nd most profitable hub. Planning to grow major there. Currently @270 dep a day, planned to go to 450+ dep a day with 7 banks. Because of this planning a major upgrade to terminal and facilities now. Said he is very excited about the potential at IAD due to it not being gate and space limited.

Not sure IAD has ever been that busy

Which is UA's most profitable hub? I'd assume DEN but not sure.
 
UALFAson
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:07 am

guppyflyer wrote:
Not gossip, I’ve personally heard Scott and Ankit discuss this. They believe the IAD hub supports 450 departures, not to say it will get there this summer. As far as airframes, were it not for the Max debacle you’d be seeing a very different UAL. You can do a lot with 35 additional 737Max narrowbodies, not to mention all of the used Airbus and widebodies being delivered.


Well sure, if it weren't for the MAX debacle, a lot of things at a lot of airlines would be very different.

That aside, I still don't see UA doubling their operations at IAD in the near future. Between DCA's proximity to downtown D.C. and the wealthy inner suburbs and WN's huge operation at BWI, there aren't enough folks in the area for whom IAD is or could become their preferred domestic airport to support massive growth based on O&D.

And while I understand the strategy of making IAD a reliver connecting hub, especially for Europe/U.S. traffic, versus EWR, it's usefulness as a regional domestic connecting hub is really limited to pure north/south connections and Northeast/Texas. ATL and CLT are better positioned to serve Midwest/Florida traffic, at least in terms of most direct routings.
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FlyPNS1
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:00 pm

UALFAson wrote:
Well sure, if it weren't for the MAX debacle, a lot of things at a lot of airlines would be very different.

That aside, I still don't see UA doubling their operations at IAD in the near future. Between DCA's proximity to downtown D.C. and the wealthy inner suburbs and WN's huge operation at BWI, there aren't enough folks in the area for whom IAD is or could become their preferred domestic airport to support massive growth based on O&D.

And while I understand the strategy of making IAD a reliver connecting hub, especially for Europe/U.S. traffic, versus EWR, it's usefulness as a regional domestic connecting hub is really limited to pure north/south connections and Northeast/Texas. ATL and CLT are better positioned to serve Midwest/Florida traffic, at least in terms of most direct routings.


While I agree that it won't happen quickly, I could see IAD at 450 in the 2025-30 timeframe (assuming macro-economic conditions support it). While DCA is definitely better positioned, DCA simply cannot grow much more. Even through upgauging, there's limited growth potential. By 2030, the DC area will likely have grown by at least a half million more people...with the Tysons/Reston/Herndon corridor easily adding 50,000 people alone.

Connecting traffic will certainly drive some of IAD's growth too. IAD works well not just North-South, but even some East-West. If you want to fly PWM to IND, IAD is a perfectly logical connecting point.

Granted, I can definitely see a scenario where a coming recession quickly changes these plans and IAD somewhat stagnates for a while.
 
LoudounHound
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:16 pm

Of course, even the possibility of ramping up the IAD operation to the neighborhood of 450 daily departures raises the question of facilities. I guess if you stretch the flights out through the day, e.g. seven banks as discussed, they can probably make the current Concourse C/D work. It's going to be a tight squeeze, though, and could finally hasten construction of a new purpose built concourse. Maybe with the regional operation attached. Wouldn't it be nice to finally have the concourse where the train station is?

The timing also meshes well with the planned opening of the airport Metro station later this year. Yes, I'm aware of all the uncertainty with that, but it makes me think UA believes the arrival of rapid transit is going to drive some traffic.
 
blockski
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:16 pm

UALFAson wrote:
guppyflyer wrote:
Not gossip, I’ve personally heard Scott and Ankit discuss this. They believe the IAD hub supports 450 departures, not to say it will get there this summer. As far as airframes, were it not for the Max debacle you’d be seeing a very different UAL. You can do a lot with 35 additional 737Max narrowbodies, not to mention all of the used Airbus and widebodies being delivered.


Well sure, if it weren't for the MAX debacle, a lot of things at a lot of airlines would be very different.

That aside, I still don't see UA doubling their operations at IAD in the near future. Between DCA's proximity to downtown D.C. and the wealthy inner suburbs and WN's huge operation at BWI, there aren't enough folks in the area for whom IAD is or could become their preferred domestic airport to support massive growth based on O&D.

And while I understand the strategy of making IAD a reliver connecting hub, especially for Europe/U.S. traffic, versus EWR, it's usefulness as a regional domestic connecting hub is really limited to pure north/south connections and Northeast/Texas. ATL and CLT are better positioned to serve Midwest/Florida traffic, at least in terms of most direct routings.


Growing IAD is obviously premised on connecting traffic, not O&D - so the proximity to Downtown DC isn't particularly relevant.

Also, if you think the strategy for IAD is to be merely a 'reliever' hub, I don't think you really understand the strategy for IAD! United has decided they can fill planes at EWR with O&D traffic as well as connections from thick spokes. By shifting connecting traffic to a more reliable airport, they're proposing to build off of IAD's strength - and recognize that lots of connecting traffic in EWR is agnostic about where they'd connect.

It's true that IAD isn't as well located as either ATL or CLT for traffic flows in all directions, but that's not what UA is proposing, nor would beefing the hub up to 450 departures/day come close to the scale of AA at CLT (~700 departures) or DL at ATL (~1,000 departures). And given the strong O&D base in the DC area for both transcontinental and international service at IAD, it doesn't need to be nearly as much heavy lifting domestic traffic to hit that scale. 450 departures a day is more on the scale of MSP or DTW as hubs; which is an interesting comparison, as each of those hubs has a distinct niche in Delta's network. United rightly thinks IAD's niche in UA's network could be a lot bigger.
 
blockski
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:22 pm

LoudounHound wrote:
Of course, even the possibility of ramping up the IAD operation to the neighborhood of 450 daily departures raises the question of facilities. I guess if you stretch the flights out through the day, e.g. seven banks as discussed, they can probably make the current Concourse C/D work. It's going to be a tight squeeze, though, and could finally hasten construction of a new purpose built concourse. Maybe with the regional operation attached. Wouldn't it be nice to finally have the concourse where the train station is?

The timing also meshes well with the planned opening of the airport Metro station later this year. Yes, I'm aware of all the uncertainty with that, but it makes me think UA believes the arrival of rapid transit is going to drive some traffic.


Yes, if UA gets to that scale, they can likely make the existing C/D work. Adding banks rather than expanding the existing banks would make that possible. There would be some obvious growing pains, particularly for UAX passenger movements from A to C/D.

What that scale would do, however, would be to increase the capacity to pay for new facilities. If United can defray their share of the costs of a new facility across more flights, then the project might be able to pencil. (As an aside - they might also consider some other designs to better connect the UAX operation into a new C/D design, as MWAA also likely needs additional space in A for other international carriers)

This is also consistent with what MWAA has publicly said about replacing C/D; namely that the airport needs to get to about 30m annual passengers before they hit the key thresholds for both needing new facilities and having the capacity to pay for them.
 
NiMar
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:22 pm

I just want to see a permanent C/D built in my lifetime so I am all for UA getting to 450 a day...
 
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msp747
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:34 pm

blockski wrote:
LoudounHound wrote:
Of course, even the possibility of ramping up the IAD operation to the neighborhood of 450 daily departures raises the question of facilities. I guess if you stretch the flights out through the day, e.g. seven banks as discussed, they can probably make the current Concourse C/D work. It's going to be a tight squeeze, though, and could finally hasten construction of a new purpose built concourse. Maybe with the regional operation attached. Wouldn't it be nice to finally have the concourse where the train station is?

The timing also meshes well with the planned opening of the airport Metro station later this year. Yes, I'm aware of all the uncertainty with that, but it makes me think UA believes the arrival of rapid transit is going to drive some traffic.


Yes, if UA gets to that scale, they can likely make the existing C/D work. Adding banks rather than expanding the existing banks would make that possible. There would be some obvious growing pains, particularly for UAX passenger movements from A to C/D.

What that scale would do, however, would be to increase the capacity to pay for new facilities. If United can defray their share of the costs of a new facility across more flights, then the project might be able to pencil. (As an aside - they might also consider some other designs to better connect the UAX operation into a new C/D design, as MWAA also likely needs additional space in A for other international carriers)

This is also consistent with what MWAA has publicly said about replacing C/D; namely that the airport needs to get to about 30m annual passengers before they hit the key thresholds for both needing new facilities and having the capacity to pay for them.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think IAD hits that 30 million passenger level with 2 additional UA banks, so we could hear movement on a new C/D sooner than later. If the MAX is back up and flying for UA by summer, I think they will get serious about an IAD expansion. If UA makes that kind of commitment, I don't see why MWAA wouldn't at least start design work so they are ready to get going when they reach 30 million. Like I said, I admit that is probably overly optimistic, especially considering how MWAA operates.
 
blockski
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pm

msp747 wrote:
blockski wrote:
LoudounHound wrote:
Of course, even the possibility of ramping up the IAD operation to the neighborhood of 450 daily departures raises the question of facilities. I guess if you stretch the flights out through the day, e.g. seven banks as discussed, they can probably make the current Concourse C/D work. It's going to be a tight squeeze, though, and could finally hasten construction of a new purpose built concourse. Maybe with the regional operation attached. Wouldn't it be nice to finally have the concourse where the train station is?

The timing also meshes well with the planned opening of the airport Metro station later this year. Yes, I'm aware of all the uncertainty with that, but it makes me think UA believes the arrival of rapid transit is going to drive some traffic.


Yes, if UA gets to that scale, they can likely make the existing C/D work. Adding banks rather than expanding the existing banks would make that possible. There would be some obvious growing pains, particularly for UAX passenger movements from A to C/D.

What that scale would do, however, would be to increase the capacity to pay for new facilities. If United can defray their share of the costs of a new facility across more flights, then the project might be able to pencil. (As an aside - they might also consider some other designs to better connect the UAX operation into a new C/D design, as MWAA also likely needs additional space in A for other international carriers)

This is also consistent with what MWAA has publicly said about replacing C/D; namely that the airport needs to get to about 30m annual passengers before they hit the key thresholds for both needing new facilities and having the capacity to pay for them.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think IAD hits that 30 million passenger level with 2 additional UA banks, so we could hear movement on a new C/D sooner than later. If the MAX is back up and flying for UA by summer, I think they will get serious about an IAD expansion. If UA makes that kind of commitment, I don't see why MWAA wouldn't at least start design work so they are ready to get going when they reach 30 million. Like I said, I admit that is probably overly optimistic, especially considering how MWAA operates.


They can always revise the agreement, but one thing to note is that the current airline use and lease agreement for Dulles runs through Dec. 31, 2024. That agreement outlines the full capital construction plan for the airport.

When this agreement was originally reached in 2015, that's what paved the way for the current expansion at DCA (as well as the sharing of some revenues between DCA and IAD).

I'll bet they could easily add the C/D project as an amendment and extend the existing use and lease agreement if they wanted to, but they're not going to implement a large capital plan at IAD under the current agreement.
 
capitalflyer
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:10 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
The Project Journey work at DCA appears to be on time for opening in July 2021 according to recent MWAA presentation documents. Interestingly though, in contrast, the new security procedures and screening operation is lagging pretty significantly. Initial contract opening was in March 2021, and now not expected until winter 2021.


If the new concourse is ready, I assume it will remain closed until the new security hall opens? Would they have the capability of adding temporary lanes or will there be a connector hall inside current security? People at 35X gazing out at the brand new, ready to use concourse across the tarmac will be annoyed.
 
blockski
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:44 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
The Project Journey work at DCA appears to be on time for opening in July 2021 according to recent MWAA presentation documents. Interestingly though, in contrast, the new security procedures and screening operation is lagging pretty significantly. Initial contract opening was in March 2021, and now not expected until winter 2021.


If the new concourse is ready, I assume it will remain closed until the new security hall opens? Would they have the capability of adding temporary lanes or will there be a connector hall inside current security? People at 35X gazing out at the brand new, ready to use concourse across the tarmac will be annoyed.


I think this would really depend on the details of the timing - how much of a delay there is between the two phases of the project, etc. Are we talking about the concourse being ready 2-3 months before the checkpoints? Or more like a year? Obviously, the longer the gap, the more likely they are to find a work-around rather than wait for the whole thing to be done.

In theory, it shouldn't be too hard to set up a temporary wall and use the same checkpoint for the North Pier (as used today) for the new north concourse; but I don't know what that does for overall capacity at that checkpoint (e.g. if American immediately starts bumping up 50 seaters to 76 seaters for all the ex-35X flights, that might strain things). It would also complicate American's operations and shuttles between the now three piers where they'll have gates.

Another issue will be in determining what kind of construction is needed to remove and reconfigure the space currently dedicated to the checkpoints. MWAA has hinted at using some of that space for more retail.
 
capitalflyer
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:09 pm

blockski wrote:
capitalflyer wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
The Project Journey work at DCA appears to be on time for opening in July 2021 according to recent MWAA presentation documents. Interestingly though, in contrast, the new security procedures and screening operation is lagging pretty significantly. Initial contract opening was in March 2021, and now not expected until winter 2021.


If the new concourse is ready, I assume it will remain closed until the new security hall opens? Would they have the capability of adding temporary lanes or will there be a connector hall inside current security? People at 35X gazing out at the brand new, ready to use concourse across the tarmac will be annoyed.


I think this would really depend on the details of the timing - how much of a delay there is between the two phases of the project, etc. Are we talking about the concourse being ready 2-3 months before the checkpoints? Or more like a year? Obviously, the longer the gap, the more likely they are to find a work-around rather than wait for the whole thing to be done.

In theory, it shouldn't be too hard to set up a temporary wall and use the same checkpoint for the North Pier (as used today) for the new north concourse; but I don't know what that does for overall capacity at that checkpoint (e.g. if American immediately starts bumping up 50 seaters to 76 seaters for all the ex-35X flights, that might strain things). It would also complicate American's operations and shuttles between the now three piers where they'll have gates.

Another issue will be in determining what kind of construction is needed to remove and reconfigure the space currently dedicated to the checkpoints. MWAA has hinted at using some of that space for more retail.


I should probably know this as well, but are they installing full height gates or going with lower gates to accommodate all RJ types (e135, cr2)? Either way, I do agree that AA would be smart to keep smaller jets in use until everything gets up and running to avoid bottlenecks. Having an extra 150 or so (25 seats x 6 ex-35x flights at one time?) people trying to get through at the same time could slow things a bit, but perhaps not dramatically.

I think the temporary wall idea is doable, with probably the need for one or two TSA peoples to monitor or cameras set up since it won't be as secure as a floor to ceiling hard wall. If they go with that option, I don't think they would need the shuttle buses any more. But there is something poetic about folks at 35X looking at their salvation just a few feet away empty. Tragic, but poetic!
 
blockski
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:45 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
blockski wrote:
capitalflyer wrote:

If the new concourse is ready, I assume it will remain closed until the new security hall opens? Would they have the capability of adding temporary lanes or will there be a connector hall inside current security? People at 35X gazing out at the brand new, ready to use concourse across the tarmac will be annoyed.


I think this would really depend on the details of the timing - how much of a delay there is between the two phases of the project, etc. Are we talking about the concourse being ready 2-3 months before the checkpoints? Or more like a year? Obviously, the longer the gap, the more likely they are to find a work-around rather than wait for the whole thing to be done.

In theory, it shouldn't be too hard to set up a temporary wall and use the same checkpoint for the North Pier (as used today) for the new north concourse; but I don't know what that does for overall capacity at that checkpoint (e.g. if American immediately starts bumping up 50 seaters to 76 seaters for all the ex-35X flights, that might strain things). It would also complicate American's operations and shuttles between the now three piers where they'll have gates.

Another issue will be in determining what kind of construction is needed to remove and reconfigure the space currently dedicated to the checkpoints. MWAA has hinted at using some of that space for more retail.


I should probably know this as well, but are they installing full height gates or going with lower gates to accommodate all RJ types (e135, cr2)? Either way, I do agree that AA would be smart to keep smaller jets in use until everything gets up and running to avoid bottlenecks. Having an extra 150 or so (25 seats x 6 ex-35x flights at one time?) people trying to get through at the same time could slow things a bit, but perhaps not dramatically.

I think the temporary wall idea is doable, with probably the need for one or two TSA peoples to monitor or cameras set up since it won't be as secure as a floor to ceiling hard wall. If they go with that option, I don't think they would need the shuttle buses any more. But there is something poetic about folks at 35X looking at their salvation just a few feet away empty. Tragic, but poetic!


The design basis is the E175; that’s the rationale for the 14 gate number. The physical infrastructure (eg the jet bridges) will allow for 737/A320 size planes if necessary, albeit with fewer gates.

Each gate will have a jet bridge, so the facility will be capable so long as AA is using aircraft that can take advantage. I’d imagine there will be some transition with the schedule...
 
capitalflyer
Posts: 629
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:52 pm

blockski wrote:
capitalflyer wrote:
blockski wrote:

I think this would really depend on the details of the timing - how much of a delay there is between the two phases of the project, etc. Are we talking about the concourse being ready 2-3 months before the checkpoints? Or more like a year? Obviously, the longer the gap, the more likely they are to find a work-around rather than wait for the whole thing to be done.

In theory, it shouldn't be too hard to set up a temporary wall and use the same checkpoint for the North Pier (as used today) for the new north concourse; but I don't know what that does for overall capacity at that checkpoint (e.g. if American immediately starts bumping up 50 seaters to 76 seaters for all the ex-35X flights, that might strain things). It would also complicate American's operations and shuttles between the now three piers where they'll have gates.

Another issue will be in determining what kind of construction is needed to remove and reconfigure the space currently dedicated to the checkpoints. MWAA has hinted at using some of that space for more retail.


I should probably know this as well, but are they installing full height gates or going with lower gates to accommodate all RJ types (e135, cr2)? Either way, I do agree that AA would be smart to keep smaller jets in use until everything gets up and running to avoid bottlenecks. Having an extra 150 or so (25 seats x 6 ex-35x flights at one time?) people trying to get through at the same time could slow things a bit, but perhaps not dramatically.

I think the temporary wall idea is doable, with probably the need for one or two TSA peoples to monitor or cameras set up since it won't be as secure as a floor to ceiling hard wall. If they go with that option, I don't think they would need the shuttle buses any more. But there is something poetic about folks at 35X looking at their salvation just a few feet away empty. Tragic, but poetic!


The design basis is the E175; that’s the rationale for the 14 gate number. The physical infrastructure (eg the jet bridges) will allow for 737/A320 size planes if necessary, albeit with fewer gates.

Each gate will have a jet bridge, so the facility will be capable so long as AA is using aircraft that can take advantage. I’d imagine there will be some transition with the schedule...


Thanks for that. During the interim will e135/cr2 be able to use the jet bridges to board or will pax have to go outside and do ground boarding?
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2941
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:44 pm

msp747 wrote:
Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think IAD hits that 30 million passenger level with 2 additional UA banks, so we could hear movement on a new C/D sooner than later. If the MAX is back up and flying for UA by summer, I think they will get serious about an IAD expansion. If UA makes that kind of commitment, I don't see why MWAA wouldn't at least start design work so they are ready to get going when they reach 30 million. Like I said, I admit that is probably overly optimistic, especially considering how MWAA operates.


The future looks bright for IAD and UA's hub there. Looking forward to seeing what other routes UA might shift to IAD from EWR in 2020.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:46 pm

blockski wrote:
capitalflyer wrote:
blockski wrote:

I think this would really depend on the details of the timing - how much of a delay there is between the two phases of the project, etc. Are we talking about the concourse being ready 2-3 months before the checkpoints? Or more like a year? Obviously, the longer the gap, the more likely they are to find a work-around rather than wait for the whole thing to be done.

In theory, it shouldn't be too hard to set up a temporary wall and use the same checkpoint for the North Pier (as used today) for the new north concourse; but I don't know what that does for overall capacity at that checkpoint (e.g. if American immediately starts bumping up 50 seaters to 76 seaters for all the ex-35X flights, that might strain things). It would also complicate American's operations and shuttles between the now three piers where they'll have gates.

Another issue will be in determining what kind of construction is needed to remove and reconfigure the space currently dedicated to the checkpoints. MWAA has hinted at using some of that space for more retail.


I should probably know this as well, but are they installing full height gates or going with lower gates to accommodate all RJ types (e135, cr2)? Either way, I do agree that AA would be smart to keep smaller jets in use until everything gets up and running to avoid bottlenecks. Having an extra 150 or so (25 seats x 6 ex-35x flights at one time?) people trying to get through at the same time could slow things a bit, but perhaps not dramatically.

I think the temporary wall idea is doable, with probably the need for one or two TSA peoples to monitor or cameras set up since it won't be as secure as a floor to ceiling hard wall. If they go with that option, I don't think they would need the shuttle buses any more. But there is something poetic about folks at 35X looking at their salvation just a few feet away empty. Tragic, but poetic!


The design basis is the E175; that’s the rationale for the 14 gate number. The physical infrastructure (eg the jet bridges) will allow for 737/A320 size planes if necessary, albeit with fewer gates.

Each gate will have a jet bridge, so the facility will be capable so long as AA is using aircraft that can take advantage. I’d imagine there will be some transition with the schedule...


Im sure that they overdesigned the jet bridge size in order to accommodate all contingencies. Let's remember that this terminal is primarily a replacement for the hellscape that is 35X. 35X is almost exclusively the play ground for E140s/145s and CR2s although you do see a CR7 now and again parked in Commuter World. The E170/175s park at the main gates in the B and C piers. If some of them shift to the new concourse, that would free up gate space in the B and C piers - something that is badly needed (especially in IRROPS weather situations).
 
DCAfan
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:22 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:17 pm

I was at DCA today and saw they have built a terrace that can serve as a path between the secured part of the north C pier and the walkway to the new commuter concourse. Building a temporary enclosure would likely make this an acceptable option for passengers.
 
graham697
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:59 am

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:44 pm

AA has basically said that the days of 50 seaters at DCA will end once the new pier is open. Can't wait to say goodbye to the CR2 knee crunchers!
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:27 pm

More silver line delays possible after new flaws found in concrete panels and in train control software.

https://wtop.com/tracking-metro-24-7/20 ... ing-delay/
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:28 pm

graham697 wrote:
AA has basically said that the days of 50 seaters at DCA will end once the new pier is open. Can't wait to say goodbye to the CR2 knee crunchers!



That will be the day. There are certain routes where a 68 or 72 seat E-175 will be a stretch. Dayton comes to mind immediately.
 
graham697
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:59 am

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:06 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
graham697 wrote:
AA has basically said that the days of 50 seaters at DCA will end once the new pier is open. Can't wait to say goodbye to the CR2 knee crunchers!



That will be the day. There are certain routes where a 68 or 72 seat E-175 will be a stretch. Dayton comes to mind immediately.


Yeah, I agree with you there - I wonder if capacity cuts will allow room for more destinations.

Is the CR7 layout with 63 seats going to remain? I can't recall what their longterm fleet plan is for that model.
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1388
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:15 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
More silver line delays possible after new flaws found in concrete panels and in train control software.

https://wtop.com/tracking-metro-24-7/20 ... ing-delay/


The PTC software implementation has been a mess for the freight lines.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1609
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:21 am

graham697 wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
graham697 wrote:
AA has basically said that the days of 50 seaters at DCA will end once the new pier is open. Can't wait to say goodbye to the CR2 knee crunchers!



That will be the day. There are certain routes where a 68 or 72 seat E-175 will be a stretch. Dayton comes to mind immediately.


Yeah, I agree with you there - I wonder if capacity cuts will allow room for more destinations.

Is the CR7 layout with 63 seats going to remain? I can't recall what their longterm fleet plan is for that model.


Airport like Dayton is hard to cut. There is a lot of government contractor and DoD travel on that pair, and I bet AA likes to keep those guys happy.
 
blockski
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:26 pm

One thing to remember with DCA is that many slots (particularly AA’s slots) are limited to regional jets. That’s not a current constraint of the schedule, as there are far more RJs using regular slots than vice versa.
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 4207
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:04 pm

A search of Dayton in February shows 3x daily CRJ. A 3x CRJ route could turn into 2x ERJ-175. And no angry congresscritter losing the flight home.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
washingtonflyer
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Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:43 pm

blockski wrote:
One thing to remember with DCA is that many slots (particularly AA’s slots) are limited to regional jets. That’s not a current constraint of the schedule, as there are far more RJs using regular slots than vice versa.


True, but do remember that the FAA has defined "commuter" slots at DCA as being defined as a jet of 76 or fewer seats. So AA does have the legal flex to fly an E175 or CR7 instead of a CR2 / E145.
 
tharanga
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:29 am

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:26 pm

Does anybody know the latest schedule for when National Hall will no longer be accessible, pre-security? I am one of the few people who go to DCA just to hang out, pre-security, in that space. It's good for plane-watching with kids, especially if the weather makes Gravelly point unpleasant.
 
User avatar
ChaseCLT
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:54 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:19 am

tharanga wrote:
Does anybody know the latest schedule for when National Hall will no longer be accessible, pre-security? I am one of the few people who go to DCA just to hang out, pre-security, in that space. It's good for plane-watching with kids, especially if the weather makes Gravelly point unpleasant.


I’ve been looking for this answer too.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3697
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 3:13 pm

While WN currently serves OMA nonstop from DCA, I am surprised that WN doesn't already serve OMA nonstop from BWI with OMA being one of the largest WN stations that doesn't currently have nonstop service to BWI on WN. All of the other destinations that WN serves nonstop from DCA also already have nonstop service out of BWI on WN.

Even though WN does have most of the demand that would be on an OMA-BWI nonstop flight covered by OMA-DCA nonstop service and connections through MDW, it might make sense for WN to add BWI-OMA nonstop service due to connections available at BWI but not at MDW such as OMA-BWI-GSP, OMA-BWI-ISP, and OMA-BWI-ROC.

It might make sense for WN to move its DCA-OMA nonstop route over to BWI if OMA cannot support nonstop service to both DCA and BWI on WN as WN would be able to offer additional connections to the East Coast from the OMA market if it adds BWI-OMA nonstop service.

Is WN likely to add BWI-OMA nonstop service, and would WN drop DCA-OMA nonstop service if WN adds BWI-OMA nonstop service?
 
jolt3on
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:18 pm

Re: DC Airports Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:20 pm

With Sen Fischer on the Senate Transportation Committee, doubt they will cut a flight to her home state

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