Another year for the Phoenix Aviation Thread. Enjoy the discussion, and have a Happy New Year!

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411839

"formeraa" made this last post in the 2019 thread:

Just as an update to SuperShuttle discontinuing van shuttle service to/from PHX Airport... The van drivers are trying to resurrect the service on their own...called "The Original Blue Van Shuttle" or something similar. They are targeting to start by Feb 1. I hope this works out...Uber/Lyft are not always the greatest option.

I hope they're successful because more options for travelers is always better than less. What I'm going to miss about Super Shuttle is their Execucar service which is what I used a couple of times, and once also their nonstop van service which was great when you had 3 or 4 people so there was plenty of room for all the bags and you didn't make several stops picking up others.

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

That’s kind of ignorant. Does Doug Parker have the say on which routes are operated? That seems like the VP of Networking, Vasu Raja’s job.

Who flew PHX-SYD/NRT? Didn’t America West’s application for PHX-SYD get rejected?

Ishrion wrote:

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

That’s kind of ignorant. Does Doug Parker have the say on which routes are operated? That seems like the VP of Networking, Vasu Raja’s job.

Who flew PHX-SYD/NRT? Didn’t America West’s application for PHX-SYD get rejected?

HP flew HNL-NGO. There has never been PHX to Tokyo or Sydney.

MO11 wrote:

Ishrion wrote:

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

That’s kind of ignorant. Does Doug Parker have the say on which routes are operated? That seems like the VP of Networking, Vasu Raja’s job.

Who flew PHX-SYD/NRT? Didn’t America West’s application for PHX-SYD get rejected?

HP flew HNL-NGO. There has never been PHX to Tokyo or Sydney.

They also flew to Sydney and Tokyo I am fairly certain.

Ishrion wrote:

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

Who flew PHX-SYD/NRT? Didn’t America West’s application for PHX-SYD get rejected?

Correct but they pushed very hard for it and did fly to Japan. The fact that they pushed so hard for SYD service all the way back in the 80s when PHX was a small, insignificant town shows that today, now the 12th largest city in America, Phoenix could definitely support daily service to SYD.

HP never pushed for PHX-SYD non-stop, it was always going to be through HNL.

HP never flew to Tokyo or to Sydney, the flights were from HNL-NGO.

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

Honestly I believe both AA and WN have neglected their PHX operations for a while. Both seem to have a static number of daily departures. AA has added destinations but then does things like cutting frequencies to places like SFO and SEA to ridiculously low levels so the overall daily departures doesn't increase. WN has been enamored with DEN as its shiny new toy and may add a frequency here or a destination there but then will easily take away a frequency here or a destination there so overall the operation doesn't really increase. In fact, for non "focus city" destinations east of Texas WN has become really weak. Unfortunately, AA's and WN's presence prevents anyone else from opening up shop so PHX is stuck in a rut where the market can handle more than what the carriers are providing.

Vctony wrote:

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

Honestly I believe both AA and WN have neglected their PHX operations for a while. Both seem to have a static number of daily departures. AA has added destinations but then does things like cutting frequencies to places like SFO and SEA to ridiculously low levels so the overall daily departures doesn't increase. WN has been enamored with DEN as its shiny new toy and may add a frequency here or a destination there but then will easily take away a frequency here or a destination there so overall the operation doesn't really increase. In fact, for non "focus city" destinations east of Texas WN has become really weak. Unfortunately, AA's and WN's presence prevents anyone else from opening up shop so PHX is stuck in a rut where the market can handle more than what the carriers are providing.

I definitely see the truth in what you say here... a great example of this is F9 & to some extent NK being able to seize opportunity that previously was absent. I do wonder if the MAX issues have been a limiting factor for PHX in seeing more seasonal reductions than usual for both AA & WN. Lastly the other question regarding AA in capacity, even with the frequency reductions I wonder what their overall annual capacity in those markets are comparatively. SFO for instance this month is 3 or 4x, but mostly A321 versus in the past it seemed to be A319/20 IIRC. SEA is somewhat surprising, obviously winter is low season there, but 1-2x seems really weak, though competition on that route has basically doubled with AS, DL, WN, and NK all on the route.

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

OMG man, what are you smoking?? LOL You're making the same "certain" and "needs to happen" claims as you're doing in the AA Network thread, with no facts whatsoever to back anything up. You're simply engaging in VERY wishful thinking.

The only thing HP "proved" 30 years ago was that they were clinically insane in even applying for the rights to Japan; I never knew they also applied for SYD and that would have been an even bigger flop than their short-lived NGO service was. It's HIGHLY doubtful even NRT would have been successful if they'd gotten that instead. Hell, they couldn't even make HNL work as a 747 was WAY too much capacity (including from LAS which they flew as well)!

Doug Parker isn't neglecting anything; it's Vasu's job to determine where AA will fly, and when, based on fact-driven market projections, not pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking. Your claim about SYD is the most ridiculous of all...that will NEVER happen; MAYBE we'll see TYO in a few years, and even if we ever do, my guess is that it'll probably be a JL 788 with AA codesharing on it. If there's a market for CDG, AF would do it, AA would be crazy to try it; MAD...how much of a market is there for a nonstop what with AA/BA connections over LHR and AA via DFW? FRA...forget it, not with Condor already in the market and now Eurowings coming in also.

cathay747 wrote:

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

OMG man, what are you smoking?? LOL You're making the same "certain" and "needs to happen" claims as you're doing in the AA Network thread, with no facts whatsoever to back anything up. You're simply engaging in VERY wishful thinking.

The only thing HP "proved" 30 years ago was that they were clinically insane in even applying for the rights to Japan; I never knew they also applied for SYD and that would have been an even bigger flop than their short-lived NGO service was. It's HIGHLY doubtful even NRT would have been successful if they'd gotten that instead. Hell, they couldn't even make HNL work as a 747 was WAY too much capacity (including from LAS which they flew as well)!

Doug Parker isn't neglecting anything; it's Vasu's job to determine where AA will fly, and when, based on fact-driven market projections, not pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking. Your claim about SYD is the most ridiculous of all...that will NEVER happen; MAYBE we'll see TYO in a few years, and even if we ever do, my guess is that it'll probably be a JL 788 with AA codesharing on it. If there's a market for CDG, AF would do it, AA would be crazy to try it; MAD...how much of a market is there for a nonstop what with AA/BA connections over LHR and AA via DFW? FRA...forget it, not with Condor already in the market and now Eurowings coming in also.

There is a reason PHX is so North America concentrated, that is where the majority of folks want to travel to and from PHX. Those that choose to travel to Europe have multiple options now and not much more could be sustained on that front right now. As far as Asia goes, there isn't enough non-price sensitive traffic that would pay extra for a non stop and even then I'm not sure that that there is enough traffic that would support a daily flight. Majority of Asia customers from PHX are MNL, PVG and HKG bound. Coupled with TYO, that probably is about 60-70% of the traffic to Asia and connections obviously dilute the yield. I'd estimate the non-price sensitive pax for Asia at about 55-60 PDEW which is not enough to sustain a 788, they probably need about another 25 PDEW to make it worth it so that they can fill the rest with lower yielding connections. Middle East traffic is there but it already either connects at LAX/DFW or in a Europe hub and is nothing that PHX could sustain.

Osubuckeyes wrote:

Vctony wrote:

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

Honestly I believe both AA and WN have neglected their PHX operations for a while. Both seem to have a static number of daily departures. AA has added destinations but then does things like cutting frequencies to places like SFO and SEA to ridiculously low levels so the overall daily departures doesn't increase. WN has been enamored with DEN as its shiny new toy and may add a frequency here or a destination there but then will easily take away a frequency here or a destination there so overall the operation doesn't really increase. In fact, for non "focus city" destinations east of Texas WN has become really weak. Unfortunately, AA's and WN's presence prevents anyone else from opening up shop so PHX is stuck in a rut where the market can handle more than what the carriers are providing.

I definitely see the truth in what you say here... a great example of this is F9 & to some extent NK being able to seize opportunity that previously was absent. I do wonder if the MAX issues have been a limiting factor for PHX in seeing more seasonal reductions than usual for both AA & WN. Lastly the other question regarding AA in capacity, even with the frequency reductions I wonder what their overall annual capacity in those markets are comparatively. SFO for instance this month is 3 or 4x, but mostly A321 versus in the past it seemed to be A319/20 IIRC. SEA is somewhat surprising, obviously winter is low season there, but 1-2x seems really weak, though competition on that route has basically doubled with AS, DL, WN, and NK all on the route.

AA and WN are actually both in the process of expanding PHX slightly despite the handicap of the MAX being OOS. AA had already added additional early morning flights to LAS/SAN/OAK/BUR and they are upping the frequencies and gauge on other routes to California and the Mountain West. WN is supposed to be near or above 200 departures this summer which would be about 20 more flights than they had when the MAX went OOS. The struggle for both is gate space and it isn't exactly getting any better when you add more flights. The AA mainline operation is maxed out on gates all morning long now from 7AM-noon with little room to accommodate bumps, the regional operation has very few periods of gate availability that makes sense in the current bank structure and WN is short gates every night from 8PM onward.

Vctony wrote:

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

Honestly I believe both AA and WN have neglected their PHX operations for a while. Both seem to have a static number of daily departures. AA has added destinations but then does things like cutting frequencies to places like SFO and SEA to ridiculously low levels so the overall daily departures doesn't increase. WN has been enamored with DEN as its shiny new toy and may add a frequency here or a destination there but then will easily take away a frequency here or a destination there so overall the operation doesn't really increase. In fact, for non "focus city" destinations east of Texas WN has become really weak. Unfortunately, AA's and WN's presence prevents anyone else from opening up shop so PHX is stuck in a rut where the market can handle more than what the carriers are providing.

Thank you you are finally someone who understands. PHX is getting screwed by Doug and his hatred of his original hub. One day PHX will rise again and we will be a premier international hub in the US just like LAX, DFW, and SFO.

PHXWRLD wrote:

Vctony wrote:

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

Honestly I believe both AA and WN have neglected their PHX operations for a while. Both seem to have a static number of daily departures. AA has added destinations but then does things like cutting frequencies to places like SFO and SEA to ridiculously low levels so the overall daily departures doesn't increase. WN has been enamored with DEN as its shiny new toy and may add a frequency here or a destination there but then will easily take away a frequency here or a destination there so overall the operation doesn't really increase. In fact, for non "focus city" destinations east of Texas WN has become really weak. Unfortunately, AA's and WN's presence prevents anyone else from opening up shop so PHX is stuck in a rut where the market can handle more than what the carriers are providing.

Thank you you are finally someone who understands. PHX is getting screwed by Doug and his hatred of his original hub. One day PHX will rise again and we will be a premier international hub in the US just like LAX, DFW, and SFO.

Care to explain how Doug Parker is screwing over PHX? You seemed to ignore my previous question above.

Ishrion wrote:

PHXWRLD wrote:

Vctony wrote:

Honestly I believe both AA and WN have neglected their PHX operations for a while. Both seem to have a static number of daily departures. AA has added destinations but then does things like cutting frequencies to places like SFO and SEA to ridiculously low levels so the overall daily departures doesn't increase. WN has been enamored with DEN as its shiny new toy and may add a frequency here or a destination there but then will easily take away a frequency here or a destination there so overall the operation doesn't really increase. In fact, for non "focus city" destinations east of Texas WN has become really weak. Unfortunately, AA's and WN's presence prevents anyone else from opening up shop so PHX is stuck in a rut where the market can handle more than what the carriers are providing.

Thank you you are finally someone who understands. PHX is getting screwed by Doug and his hatred of his original hub. One day PHX will rise again and we will be a premier international hub in the US just like LAX, DFW, and SFO.

Care to explain how Doug Parker is screwing over PHX? You seemed to ignore my previous question above.

Add up the daily long haul departures at each of AA’s hubs and you have an answer.

alasizon wrote:

There is a reason PHX is so North America concentrated, that is where the majority of folks want to travel to and from PHX. Those that choose to travel to Europe have multiple options now and not much more could be sustained on that front right now. As far as Asia goes, there isn't enough non-price sensitive traffic that would pay extra for a non stop and even then I'm not sure that that there is enough traffic that would support a daily flight. Majority of Asia customers from PHX are MNL, PVG and HKG bound. Coupled with TYO, that probably is about 60-70% of the traffic to Asia and connections obviously dilute the yield. I'd estimate the non-price sensitive pax for Asia at about 55-60 PDEW which is not enough to sustain a 788, they probably need about another 25 PDEW to make it worth it so that they can fill the rest with lower yielding connections. Middle East traffic is there but it already either connects at LAX/DFW or in a Europe hub and is nothing that PHX could sustain.

AA and WN are actually both in the process of expanding PHX slightly despite the handicap of the MAX being OOS. AA had already added additional early morning flights to LAS/SAN/OAK/BUR and they are upping the frequencies and gauge on other routes to California and the Mountain West. WN is supposed to be near or above 200 departures this summer which would be about 20 more flights than they had when the MAX went OOS. The struggle for both is gate space and it isn't exactly getting any better when you add more flights. The AA mainline operation is maxed out on gates all morning long now from 7AM-noon with little room to accommodate bumps, the regional operation has very few periods of gate availability that makes sense in the current bank structure and WN is short gates every night from 8PM onward.

I do wonder how much traffic to Asia is lost to LAX. My last several trips have been LAX O&D with a Southwest connection for ~$100 more. I wouldn't say it's always due to price sensitivity either with a huge selection of Nonstops convenience has to be a factor as well (one flight to NRT would only impact that in a limited way).

It is unfortunate that the gate situation will likely not improve much until S4 is completed. I guess AC moving over to T3N will help some.

PHXWRLD wrote:

Doug Parker and AA has long neglected their loyal, faithful PHX hub. As soon as Doug gets the boot, which hopefully happens very soon, I think PHX will get what it deserves with flights to many of the cities that work from DFW and LAX such as MAD, CDG, FRA, NRT, and SYD. Especially SYD and NRT need to happen as the market for them was proven 30 years ago when our hometown carrier flew daily 747s to both. Today, the PHX market is much bigger and there would be connections at both ends.

I agree about the Tokyo and Sydney flights. With Oneworld on each end, its a win, win situation with these flights. AA has to jump first or have JAL or QF bring in the flights. a Dark Horse for PHX is also connected with AA/Oneworld is Fiji Airways. Fiji Airways is a connect partner via Oneworld. Fiji Airways could do 3 times a week with onward connect to Australia, New Zealand and south pacific island.

phxtristar wrote:

Fiji Airways could do 3 times a week with onward connect to Australia, New Zealand and south pacific island.

FJ has a pretty small fleet and I highly doubt they'd send an A330 (or A350) or Phoenix, when they can fill that plane going to somewhere else like SEA, SEL, SIN etc. When I was in Fiji I quickly learned to tell people I was from Los Angeles. Nobody knows where (or what) Phoenix is.

Just like Australia, Fiji is a very easy connection at LAX.

alasizon wrote:

AA and WN are actually both in the process of expanding PHX slightly despite the handicap of the MAX being OOS. AA had already added additional early morning flights to LAS/SAN/OAK/BUR and they are upping the frequencies and gauge on other routes to California and the Mountain West. WN is supposed to be near or above 200 departures this summer which would be about 20 more flights than they had when the MAX went OOS. The struggle for both is gate space and it isn't exactly getting any better when you add more flights. The AA mainline operation is maxed out on gates all morning long now from 7AM-noon with little room to accommodate bumps, the regional operation has very few periods of gate availability that makes sense in the current bank structure and WN is short gates every night from 8PM onward.

While WN operated CVG-PHX daily nonstop service on a seasonal basis in Spring 2018 and Spring 2019, WN will only be operating CVG-PHX on a Saturday-only basis starting on March 7th and ending on April 11th. I can understand WN not operating daily nonstop service to CVG out of PHX in Spring 2020 due to the plane shortage that WN is facing as a result of the 737 MAX grounding, even if WN was still able to make CVG-PHX daily nonstop service work with AA now having seasonal daily nonstop service to CVG out of PHX.

Here are the load factors for WN CVG-PHX nonstop service in Spring 2018 and Spring 2019:
Spring 2018 - 88.61%
Spring 2019 - 89.83%

WN re-adding daily nonstop service to CVG out of PHX and extending CVG-PHX to year-round nonstop service is a possibility once WN has more planes in its fleet with
(a) F9 ending CVG-PHX nonstop service on April 23rd,
(b) AA ending CVG-PHX seasonal nonstop service on April 6th,
(c) DL ending CVG-PHX seasonal nonstop service on April 20th,
(d) WN ending CVG-PHX seasonal nonstop service on April 11th,
(e) CVG not being served nonstop out of PHX past April 23rd,
(f) the lack of year-round CVG-PHX nonstop service being a huge hole in both the CVG and PHX markets,
(g) WN being able to fill CVG-PHX nonstop flights back when WN operated daily nonstop service to CVG out of PHX,
(h) WN having a FF base in Greater Phoenix who prefers to fly on WN over AA, DL, F9, or other airlines,
and
(i) WN having connecting feed from Southern California in addition to O&D to support daily nonstop service to CVG out of PHX.

WN re-adding Saturday-only PHX-LGA nonstop service is a possibility with WN no longer serving EWR and WN being able to fill PHX-LGA nonstop flights back when WN operated PHX-LGA nonstop service in Spring 2018.

I also previously mentioned WN possibly re-adding PHX-BOS nonstop service since
(a) WN had better load factors on PHX-BOS nonstop service back in 2011 and 2012 than it did on BOS-ATL/IND/MCI/MKE nonstop service in 2018 and 2019,
(b) WN having a FF base in Greater Phoenix and Southern California to support the return of PHX-BOS nonstop service,
and
(c) BOS is one of the top destinations that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from PHX.

Here is a link to a post regarding WN possibly re-adding BOS-PHX nonstop service: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411815&start=2650#p21886315.

In addition to the possible return of PHX-BOS, PHX-CVG, and Saturday-only PHX-LGA nonstop service, WN could also re-add PHX-BHM nonstop service and add nonstop service to CLT, BDL, HNL, OGG, and MEM out of PHX.

I also previously mentioned that there are a few more nonstop routes such as PHX-BUF, PHX-LIT, PHX-SDF, PHX-BNA, and PHX-TUL that could be added by AA out of PHX in order to better compete against WN in the PHX market.

LAX continues to be a roadblock in our quest for Asia flights. We need to get rid of Doug Parker and get someone who would make the logical decision to stop wasting money trying to operate loads of LAX-Asia flights and would shift those flights to PHX for better connections.

PHXWRLD wrote:

Ishrion wrote:

PHXWRLD wrote:

Thank you you are finally someone who understands. PHX is getting screwed by Doug and his hatred of his original hub. One day PHX will rise again and we will be a premier international hub in the US just like LAX, DFW, and SFO.

Care to explain how Doug Parker is screwing over PHX? You seemed to ignore my previous question above.

Add up the daily long haul departures at each of AA’s hubs and you have an answer.

If PHX is such an underserved market by AA then surely there is a long line of premier foreign carriers that are just begging the City for gate space, right?

Nonrevhell wrote:

HP never pushed for PHX-SYD non-stop, it was always going to be through HNL.

HP never flew to Tokyo or to Sydney, the flights were from HNL-NGO.

I'm certain this is very correct.

Keep the thread on topic. Personal comments will be removed.

✈️ atcsundevil

Austin, where I am a resident, has recently gained a lot of international service in spite of it's being very close to DFW and IAH. PHX has issues working against its attracting more international service than Doug Parker or it's proximity to LAX. I was born and raised in PHX and would like to see more international service/air carriers there, so this isn't a PHX bashing comment.

phxtristar wrote:

Nonrevhell wrote:

HP never pushed for PHX-SYD non-stop, it was always going to be through HNL.

HP never flew to Tokyo or to Sydney, the flights were from HNL-NGO.

I'm certain this is very correct.

I worked for HP for a long time, amazing to read the myths about what actually happened!

Does anyone know if United has a date to move over to the new T3N, and if their club will open simultaneously?

Osubuckeyes wrote:

Does anyone know if United has a date to move over to the new T3N, and if their club will open simultaneously?

I believe they will move over as it opens up. If I have it correct all T2 airlines will be moving, and T2 will be demolished.

colemcandrew wrote:

I believe they will move over as it opens up. If I have it correct all T2 airlines will be moving, and T2 will be demolished.

I heard AS was moving January 9. Who knows though. No UA club at opening though. According to the club person I talked to, a UA club is “coming eventually.”

PHXWRLD wrote:

LAX continues to be a roadblock in our quest for Asia flights. We need to get rid of Doug Parker and get someone who would make the logical decision to stop wasting money trying to operate loads of LAX-Asia flights and would shift those flights to PHX for better connections.

Alright, I'll bite.

Why would you operate Asia flights out of PHX as opposed to LAX? Honest question.

Osubuckeyes wrote:

alasizon wrote:

There is a reason PHX is so North America concentrated, that is where the majority of folks want to travel to and from PHX. Those that choose to travel to Europe have multiple options now and not much more could be sustained on that front right now. As far as Asia goes, there isn't enough non-price sensitive traffic that would pay extra for a non stop and even then I'm not sure that that there is enough traffic that would support a daily flight. Majority of Asia customers from PHX are MNL, PVG and HKG bound. Coupled with TYO, that probably is about 60-70% of the traffic to Asia and connections obviously dilute the yield. I'd estimate the non-price sensitive pax for Asia at about 55-60 PDEW which is not enough to sustain a 788, they probably need about another 25 PDEW to make it worth it so that they can fill the rest with lower yielding connections. Middle East traffic is there but it already either connects at LAX/DFW or in a Europe hub and is nothing that PHX could sustain.

AA and WN are actually both in the process of expanding PHX slightly despite the handicap of the MAX being OOS. AA had already added additional early morning flights to LAS/SAN/OAK/BUR and they are upping the frequencies and gauge on other routes to California and the Mountain West. WN is supposed to be near or above 200 departures this summer which would be about 20 more flights than they had when the MAX went OOS. The struggle for both is gate space and it isn't exactly getting any better when you add more flights. The AA mainline operation is maxed out on gates all morning long now from 7AM-noon with little room to accommodate bumps, the regional operation has very few periods of gate availability that makes sense in the current bank structure and WN is short gates every night from 8PM onward.

I do wonder how much traffic to Asia is lost to LAX. My last several trips have been LAX O&D with a Southwest connection for ~$100 more. I wouldn't say it's always due to price sensitivity either with a huge selection of Nonstops convenience has to be a factor as well (one flight to NRT would only impact that in a limited way).

It is unfortunate that the gate situation will likely not improve much until S4 is completed. I guess AC moving over to T3N will help some.

Not just LAX, but SFO, SEA, and YVR. Lately, I've chosen YVR for our transfer point from HKG to PHX. This year, AC was very cheap for the HKG-YVR leg so went via YVR for the third year in a row, YVR-PHX this was delightfully served with an Omni Air 762! Now that AA has dropped its PHX-YVR route, we're left with Westjet or Air Canada. I don't see where anything more than a 788 sized aircraft to Tokyo is going to work for Asia connections. And I suspect that this would rely somewhat on military connections from the PHX bases to Japan + business connections then people going to find themselves in Thailand. The problem I see here is that intra-Asia on JAL is so expensive.

PHX is getting its boost in European connections this year, let's see how that maintains itself. If it works, we have proof that the market adjusts. Also, I think people are used to 1-hops as it is not really that big of a deal.

Osubuckeyes wrote:

Does anyone know if United has a date to move over to the new T3N, and if their club will open simultaneously?

I was in PHX this week and was told Feb 6th is the last day for T2 flights FWIW.

I was idly thinking of a flight from PHX to LHR and took a look at prices. I was surprised to see that for non stop flights the AA flight is half the price of a BA flight. $671 versus $1276. I've checked twice again over the past few days, and the answer is always just about the same. From past experience the timing of the BA flight is much better for my purposes, and the load factor on BA has always made it difficult to get reward tickets,



Any thoughts on why there is such a big difference ?

RobertPhoenix wrote:

RobertPhoenix wrote:

I was idly thinking of a flight from PHX to LHR and took a look at prices. I was surprised to see that for non stop flights the AA flight is half the price of a BA flight. $671 versus $1276. I've checked twice again over the past few days, and the answer is always just about the same. From past experience the timing of the BA flight is much better for my purposes, and the load factor on BA has always made it difficult to get reward tickets,



Any thoughts on why there is such a big difference ?

Trying again with the image

Your image still isn't coming through.

I don't know what particular days you are looking for but it could simply be the fare buckets available. BA's prices have always seemed higher to me when looking from a US point of sale but given AA and BA manage the market jointly they obviously have it worked out to charge the right prices and the right times.

RobertPhoenix wrote:

I was idly thinking of a flight from PHX to LHR and took a look at prices. I was surprised to see that for non stop flights the AA flight is half the price of a BA flight. $671 versus $1276. I've checked twice again over the past few days, and the answer is always just about the same. From past experience the timing of the BA flight is much better for my purposes, and the load factor on BA has always made it difficult to get reward tickets,



Any thoughts on why there is such a big difference ?

Lol....yeah its AA. How else is AA gonna get people to fly on them other than offering deeply discounted airfares.

RobertPhoenix wrote:

I was idly thinking of a flight from PHX to LHR and took a look at prices. I was surprised to see that for non stop flights the AA flight is half the price of a BA flight. $671 versus $1276. I've checked twice again over the past few days, and the answer is always just about the same. From past experience the timing of the BA flight is much better for my purposes, and the load factor on BA has always made it difficult to get reward tickets,



Any thoughts on why there is such a big difference ?

You are correct that these are chronically this way. I would prefer a 787 and a later flight because of getting into LHR at 7am is difficult when you don't live in London but I've only seen a handful of times recently where the prices were similar and that was during the promotional sale around black friday.

No ideas as to why other than BA thinking they can upcharge the fares because of less seats compared to their 747s...

I'd much rather fly BA than sit in a 10 abreast AA 777.

kimimm19 wrote:

You are correct that these are chronically this way. I would prefer a 787 and a later flight because of getting into LHR at 7am is difficult when you don't live in London but I've only seen a handful of times recently where the prices were similar and that was during the promotional sale around black friday.

No ideas as to why other than BA thinking they can upcharge the fares because of less seats compared to their 747s...

In my own experience, getting in at 7:00 AM (midnight PHX time ! when you just want to go to sleep ! ) starts a few miserable days of chronic tiredness, quite apart from figuring how what you are going to do before you can check into your hotel. Much better to get in a full day of work the day of travel, and then use the arrival day to get acclimatized and have productive days following.

As far as the fares are concerned, another funny thing is the amount of taxes etc BA charges on a "free" reward ticket. Last time I flew business the taxes and fees were over $1,000. I haven't checked but I'll be the coach taxes and fees for a free ticket are about the same as AA's fare !

Wish I could figure out why the image doesn't appear. I wonder if the link will reproduce

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nhw8m ... 5HO3WXfxqE

I know in the 2019 thread, there was discussion of Uber and Lyft leaving. If that happens, use of the 44th Street station will NOT be permitted. I know this because it has been made very clear that it is airport property. When the precious spat occurred, I took SkyTrain to the station and ordered an Uber. As soon as the car showed up, this guy in a safety vest who could not be older than 21 showed up with a ticket in hand. The driver saw the ticket, slammed the trunk, said "sorry man" and left. I entered a spirited debate about how the station should be considered city and not airport property. Not much of a leg to stand on however I tried. So of course I ended up going back in the station, crossed the bridge, crossed 44th Street and the same driver ended up picking me up at Circle K. I really hope they resolve this or a lot of visitors are going to get a rude greeting to the Valley.

RobertPhoenix wrote:

...................

As far as the fares are concerned, another funny thing is the amount of taxes etc BA charges on a "free" reward ticket. Last time I flew business the taxes and fees were over $1,000. I haven't checked but I'll be the coach taxes and fees for a free ticket are about the same as AA's fare !

Wish I could figure out why the image doesn't appear. I wonder if the link will reproduce

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nhw8m ... 5HO3WXfxqE

So, you're complaining about having to pay $1000 cash (your figure), for a Round Trip Business Class ticket that typically sells for over $5K ??

skyharborshome wrote:

I know in the 2019 thread, there was discussion of Uber and Lyft leaving. If that happens, use of the 44th Street station will NOT be permitted. I know this because it has been made very clear that it is airport property. When the precious spat occurred, I took SkyTrain to the station and ordered an Uber. As soon as the car showed up, this guy in a safety vest who could not be older than 21 showed up with a ticket in hand. The driver saw the ticket, slammed the trunk, said "sorry man" and left. I entered a spirited debate about how the station should be considered city and not airport property. Not much of a leg to stand on however I tried. So of course I ended up going back in the station, crossed the bridge, crossed 44th Street and the same driver ended up picking me up at Circle K. I really hope they resolve this or a lot of visitors are going to get a rude greeting to the Valley.

Well then, just have the Uber drop you off at the DoubleTree hotel on 44th and Van Buren, walk across the street and take the billion dollar boondoggle that is the SkyTrain. The city is gonna lose this battle. Tell the drone in the vest to hit the road and ask the driver to meet you at the DoubleTree.

Nonrevhell wrote:

Well then, just have the Uber drop you off at the DoubleTree hotel on 44th and Van Buren, walk across the street and take the billion dollar boondoggle that is the SkyTrain. The city is gonna lose this battle. Tell the drone in the vest to hit the road and ask the driver to meet you at the DoubleTree.

The Crowne Plaza is much easier than the DoubleTree.

The vest people have gotten worse recently. What makes me laugh is it’s the same vest the airfield ops people wear.

James Bennett Director of Sky Harbor had something to say about the ride-share fare hike.

Don't be misled: Phoenix airport has every right to recoup costs from Uber and Lyft
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2020/01/06/uber-lyft-surprised-phoenix-airport-fees-we-worked-together/2796393001/

As director of Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport, I take great issue with the accusations that are being made against the Phoenix City Council and Sky Harbor regarding Uber and Lyft. The public is being misled and most people just don’t have the facts, so here they are.

Ride-share companies must pay to access airport facilities, services and improvements, which is not only fair; it’s legal. This is consistent with all other companies doing business at Sky Harbor, many of them local, small businesses who willingly pay for their access to and use of one of the best airports in the country.

Opponents of the fees are misleading the public. They either aren’t reading the Constitution or are choosing not to pay attention to what it says. To be clear, these fees do not apply to rides anywhere other than to or from the city-owned, city-managed airport... (story continued in link)

cm642 wrote:

James Bennett Director of Sky Harbor had something to say about the ride-share fare hike.

Don't be misled: Phoenix airport has every right to recoup costs from Uber and Lyft
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2020/01/06/uber-lyft-surprised-phoenix-airport-fees-we-worked-together/2796393001/

As director of Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport, I take great issue with the accusations that are being made against the Phoenix City Council and Sky Harbor regarding Uber and Lyft. The public is being misled and most people just don’t have the facts, so here they are.

Ride-share companies must pay to access airport facilities, services and improvements, which is not only fair; it’s legal. This is consistent with all other companies doing business at Sky Harbor, many of them local, small businesses who willingly pay for their access to and use of one of the best airports in the country.

Opponents of the fees are misleading the public. They either aren’t reading the Constitution or are choosing not to pay attention to what it says. To be clear, these fees do not apply to rides anywhere other than to or from the city-owned, city-managed airport... (story continued in link)

I don't think the FAA just hands out grants to for-profit businesses. If this is a for-profit business then $21.9 million that was just awarded to PHX should be returned to the FAA, becuase it is taxpayer money after all and airport doesn't use that so he claims.

RobertPhoenix wrote:

kimimm19 wrote:

You are correct that these are chronically this way. I would prefer a 787 and a later flight because of getting into LHR at 7am is difficult when you don't live in London but I've only seen a handful of times recently where the prices were similar and that was during the promotional sale around black friday.

No ideas as to why other than BA thinking they can upcharge the fares because of less seats compared to their 747s...

In my own experience, getting in at 7:00 AM (midnight PHX time ! when you just want to go to sleep ! ) starts a few miserable days of chronic tiredness, quite apart from figuring how what you are going to do before you can check into your hotel. Much better to get in a full day of work the day of travel, and then use the arrival day to get acclimatized and have productive days following.

As far as the fares are concerned, another funny thing is the amount of taxes etc BA charges on a "free" reward ticket. Last time I flew business the taxes and fees were over $1,000. I haven't checked but I'll be the coach taxes and fees for a free ticket are about the same as AA's fare !

Wish I could figure out why the image doesn't appear. I wonder if the link will reproduce

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nhw8m ... 5HO3WXfxqE

I meant getting into LHR for 7am as in when you are departing on the early AA flight back to PHX and have to be there two hours before.

INFINITI329 wrote:

cm642 wrote:

James Bennett Director of Sky Harbor had something to say about the ride-share fare hike.

Don't be misled: Phoenix airport has every right to recoup costs from Uber and Lyft
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2020/01/06/uber-lyft-surprised-phoenix-airport-fees-we-worked-together/2796393001/

As director of Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport, I take great issue with the accusations that are being made against the Phoenix City Council and Sky Harbor regarding Uber and Lyft. The public is being misled and most people just don’t have the facts, so here they are.

Ride-share companies must pay to access airport facilities, services and improvements, which is not only fair; it’s legal. This is consistent with all other companies doing business at Sky Harbor, many of them local, small businesses who willingly pay for their access to and use of one of the best airports in the country.

Opponents of the fees are misleading the public. They either aren’t reading the Constitution or are choosing not to pay attention to what it says. To be clear, these fees do not apply to rides anywhere other than to or from the city-owned, city-managed airport... (story continued in link)

I don't think the FAA just hands out grants to for-profit businesses. If this is a for-profit business then $21.9 million that was just awarded to PHX should be returned to the FAA, becuase it is taxpayer money after all and airport doesn't use that so he claims.

You misinterpreted his statement. The terms "at a profit" and "for profit business" referred to the car operators, not the airport. Personally, I think Uber and Lyft should be charged monthly impact fees to offset taxpayer costs to support public transit.

MO11 wrote:

INFINITI329 wrote:

cm642 wrote:

James Bennett Director of Sky Harbor had something to say about the ride-share fare hike.

Don't be misled: Phoenix airport has every right to recoup costs from Uber and Lyft
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2020/01/06/uber-lyft-surprised-phoenix-airport-fees-we-worked-together/2796393001/

As director of Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport, I take great issue with the accusations that are being made against the Phoenix City Council and Sky Harbor regarding Uber and Lyft. The public is being misled and most people just don’t have the facts, so here they are.

Ride-share companies must pay to access airport facilities, services and improvements, which is not only fair; it’s legal. This is consistent with all other companies doing business at Sky Harbor, many of them local, small businesses who willingly pay for their access to and use of one of the best airports in the country.

Opponents of the fees are misleading the public. They either aren’t reading the Constitution or are choosing not to pay attention to what it says. To be clear, these fees do not apply to rides anywhere other than to or from the city-owned, city-managed airport... (story continued in link)

I don't think the FAA just hands out grants to for-profit businesses. If this is a for-profit business then $21.9 million that was just awarded to PHX should be returned to the FAA, becuase it is taxpayer money after all and airport doesn't use that so he claims.

You misinterpreted his statement. The terms "at a profit" and "for profit business" referred to the car operators, not the airport. Personally, I think Uber and Lyft should be charged monthly impact fees to offset taxpayer costs to support public transit.

I for one don't understand why there is such a hullaballoo about Uber & Lyft having to pay the new/increased fee. Cab companies have to pay it; SuperShuttle would have had to also if they'd remained in business and the rumored resurrection of a form of S.S. by local drivers would have to pay it. So why can't Uber & Lyft simply pass it along to the pax in the fare like the others have to or would have? I think it smells like Uber & Lyft not wanting to do that in order to have some kind of pricing advantage; why are they such a "special case"? At the end of the day, as it stands now, the fee is there, and unless it's repealed, then it's Uber & Lyft who are causing inconvenience to travelers, not the city or airport.

cm642 wrote:

James Bennett Director of Sky Harbor had something to say about the ride-share fare hike.

Two things James Bennett does not cover in "his" opinion piece that I'm sure some PR person wrote. The new fee structure only charges taxis pickup fees of $1.75, whereas ride share is charged the increasing $4 on trips both in and out. The other one that I didn't realize was the ride share fees can continue to increase after it reaches $5. They just didn't write it out past 2024.

Put taxis on the same fee schedule and I will fully embrace the additional $6 I'll be paying to go to the airport.

I expect this to get tied up in court once the AG issues his opinion in a few days, or PHX will renegotiate. Even the governor said he expects this to get blocked. https://ktar.com/story/2909148/gov-ducey-says-he-thinks-uber-lyft-fees-at-sky-harbor-will-be-overturned/

cathay747 wrote:

I for one don't understand why there is such a hullaballoo about Uber & Lyft having to pay the new/increased fee. Cab companies have to pay it;

See above, or at this link: https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/ub ... r-11402951 Cab companies are charged $1.75 one way.

chrisair wrote:

cm642 wrote:

James Bennett Director of Sky Harbor had something to say about the ride-share fare hike.

Two things James Bennett does not cover in "his" opinion piece that I'm sure some PR person wrote. The new fee structure only charges taxis pickup fees of $1.75, whereas ride share is charged the increasing $4 on trips both in and out. The other one that I didn't realize was the ride share fees can continue to increase after it reaches $5. They just didn't write it out past 2024.

Put taxis on the same fee schedule and I will fully embrace the additional $6 I'll be paying to go to the airport.

I expect this to get tied up in court once the AG issues his opinion in a few days, or PHX will renegotiate. Even the governor said he expects this to get blocked. https://ktar.com/story/2909148/gov-ducey-says-he-thinks-uber-lyft-fees-at-sky-harbor-will-be-overturned/

cathay747 wrote:

I for one don't understand why there is such a hullaballoo about Uber & Lyft having to pay the new/increased fee. Cab companies have to pay it;

See above, or at this link: https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/ub ... r-11402951 Cab companies are charged $1.75 one way.

Oh OK, I didn't know that, and that's not right. Should be a level playing field. If ride shares are gonna get socked at $4 both in AND out, then the cab companies should too. Otherwise it's showing favoritism for lack of a better term if you ask me.

cathay747 wrote:

chrisair wrote:

cm642 wrote:

James Bennett Director of Sky Harbor had something to say about the ride-share fare hike.

Two things James Bennett does not cover in "his" opinion piece that I'm sure some PR person wrote. The new fee structure only charges taxis pickup fees of $1.75, whereas ride share is charged the increasing $4 on trips both in and out. The other one that I didn't realize was the ride share fees can continue to increase after it reaches $5. They just didn't write it out past 2024.

Put taxis on the same fee schedule and I will fully embrace the additional $6 I'll be paying to go to the airport.

I expect this to get tied up in court once the AG issues his opinion in a few days, or PHX will renegotiate. Even the governor said he expects this to get blocked. https://ktar.com/story/2909148/gov-ducey-says-he-thinks-uber-lyft-fees-at-sky-harbor-will-be-overturned/

cathay747 wrote:

I for one don't understand why there is such a hullaballoo about Uber & Lyft having to pay the new/increased fee. Cab companies have to pay it;

See above, or at this link: https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/ub ... r-11402951 Cab companies are charged $1.75 one way.

Oh OK, I didn't know that, and that's not right. Should be a level playing field. If ride shares are gonna get socked at $4 both in AND out, then the cab companies should too. Otherwise it's showing favoritism for lack of a better term if you ask me.

The taxi companies also operate under an RFP and actually have to pay other costs as well. I agree it should be a level contribution but really just make it a single monthly fee based on the number of pick-ups Uber/Lyft do in a given month. That way they can incorporate that into their bottom line pricing.

I'm not sure that $4 per way is a reasonable fee for the services and infrastructure they are using.

alasizon wrote:

I'm not sure that $4 per way is a reasonable fee for the services and infrastructure they are using.

Aside from the people in yellow vests that stand around doing nothing, what additional infrastructure are ride sharing companies using that taxis are not?

Why not make rental car customers pay fees for using the Sky Train? I mean, after all, they're the ones benefitting from it. We pay for it when we use the parking lots.