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1337Delta764
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Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:27 pm

Continuing from the 2019 thread.

What seems to be a first for me for my Puerto Rico shipments to my family is that Amazon is shipping something via International Bridge from Phoenix. I wonder if Amazon Air will fly it to CVG to hand it to International Bridge, will it go by ground to CVG, or will Amazon hand it to International Bridge at LAX.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:28 pm

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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:47 am

1337Delta764 wrote:
Continuing from the 2019 thread.

What seems to be a first for me for my Puerto Rico shipments to my family is that Amazon is shipping something via International Bridge from Phoenix. I wonder if Amazon Air will fly it to CVG to hand it to International Bridge, will it go by ground to CVG, or will Amazon hand it to International Bridge at LAX.


I would be curious to see the route. Let us know.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:47 am

Happy New Year to everyone who participated in this thread last year!
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:23 am

wjcandee wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
Continuing from the 2019 thread.

What seems to be a first for me for my Puerto Rico shipments to my family is that Amazon is shipping something via International Bridge from Phoenix. I wonder if Amazon Air will fly it to CVG to hand it to International Bridge, will it go by ground to CVG, or will Amazon hand it to International Bridge at LAX.


I would be curious to see the route. Let us know.


So far I haven't seen movement since this morning, so I don't think it is going to LAX (I think I would have seen a scan at the San Bernardino, California Sortation Center by now). Could either go by ground to CVG or by Amazon Air. Amazon does run a ground linehaul route from Hebron for non-Prime, Zappos, and over-weekend Prime shipments to addresses that don't accept weekend deliveries; I'm not sure about the reverse.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:36 am

I myself plan on following the addition of SY flying planes for Amazon with great interest. I hope to share what I can find out from folks I know there.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:54 pm

As for the Puerto Rico package, there has still been no movement since yesterday, which is surprising. If Amazon is moving it by ground between Phoenix and CVG, I'm not sure why. Maybe the New Years holiday? Amazon says a January 6 delivery, although since in Puerto Rico that is an island holiday (Epiphany, which USPS observes there), it will probably be delivered on the 7th.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:50 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
As for the Puerto Rico package, there has still been no movement since yesterday, which is surprising. If Amazon is moving it by ground between Phoenix and CVG, I'm not sure why. Maybe the New Years holiday? Amazon says a January 6 delivery, although since in Puerto Rico that is an island holiday (Epiphany, which USPS observes there), it will probably be delivered on the 7th.

Amazon closed FCs for the holiday last night at 5PM. I believe they reopen today at noon.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:50 am

Another update, looks like it just arrived at the Sortation Center in San Bernardino, so it appears Amazon will hand it off to International Bridge at LAX. It will probably then make a stop in CVG before it arrives in SJU.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:08 am

sunking737 wrote:
I myself plan on following the addition of SY flying planes for Amazon with great interest. I hope to share what I can find out from folks I know there.


Maybe we’ll get to see them at ORD with Amazon opening ORD mid-March/April.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:30 am

CALMSP wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
I myself plan on following the addition of SY flying planes for Amazon with great interest. I hope to share what I can find out from folks I know there.


Maybe we’ll get to see them at ORD with Amazon opening ORD mid-March/April.


I would be surprised if they didn't fly this station with bigger metal. But maybe not.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:48 am

Does AMZL use SurePost (UPS with last mile on USPS) at all? I presume not, since the Fedex analog (SmartPost) is notorious for late deliveries.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:43 am

I don't know if Amazon uses SurePost for non-Prime shipments. That's a universe I haven't experienced for what seems like a decade. It does not use it for Prime. The SurePost service is actually pretty-reliable. But it's reliably a day more than UPS Ground, because UPS mails SurePost during the regular times that UPS Ground is out in that area. Whereas Amazon will get product to the DDU before 7am, and thus get delivery that day, UPS will get it there during the day, producing delivery the following day. So when Ground is already going to your house and there's a SurePost they can take, they save you a day by not dropping it at the Post Office. UPS also has a neat little trick that allows you to pay $4.99 per item, if you have a UPS account, to have the product delivered to your home by UPS rather than the USPS, saving a day.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:08 pm

wjcandee wrote:
I don't know if Amazon uses SurePost for non-Prime shipments. That's a universe I haven't experienced for what seems like a decade. It does not use it for Prime. The SurePost service is actually pretty-reliable. But it's reliably a day more than UPS Ground, because UPS mails SurePost during the regular times that UPS Ground is out in that area. Whereas Amazon will get product to the DDU before 7am, and thus get delivery that day, UPS will get it there during the day, producing delivery the following day. So when Ground is already going to your house and there's a SurePost they can take, they save you a day by not dropping it at the Post Office. UPS also has a neat little trick that allows you to pay $4.99 per item, if you have a UPS account, to have the product delivered to your home by UPS rather than the USPS, saving a day.


I once shipped to my brother in Portland and they once used SurePost for a Prime shipment, but with the move to One-Day shipping, Amazon probably doesn't do this anymore. I also once shipped to a P.O. Box in Missouri and it used SurePost (but the second time I shipped to that same P.O. Box they used their organic linehaul network with Amazon dropping the package off at the main DDU that serves that station).
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:34 pm

A day late would be great. I have a SmartPost shipment (seller in MA) that was to be delivered "before Christmas (2019)"... still not here. 9 days overdue and counting. Fedex Ground didn't even make it to the hand-off in Chino CA by 24 Dec., much less to the DDU in Honolulu. What happens in Chino? USPS takes an item to its NDC in Bell CA (for the LA area), then by air to its SCF at HNL?
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:28 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
A day late would be great. I have a SmartPost shipment (seller in MA) that was to be delivered "before Christmas (2019)"... still not here. 9 days overdue and counting. Fedex Ground didn't even make it to the hand-off in Chino CA by 24 Dec., much less to the DDU in Honolulu. What happens in Chino? USPS takes an item to its NDC in Bell CA (for the LA area), then by air to its SCF at HNL?


It goes on a cargo ship to Hawaii. Also, Hawaii is an exception to the SurePost rules, since UPS hands off the package to the USPS in the mainland for SurePost, which then the package will also go on a cargo ship. If you have UPS My Choice you can upgrade it to Ground and then UPS will fly it to Hawaii on a dedicated flight for UPS Ground packages.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:02 pm

Getting back onto the fleet topic:

Any news on the former DL frame stuck in PHX over Peak?
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:32 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Getting back onto the fleet topic:

Any news on the former DL frame stuck in PHX over Peak?


It was flown to ILN on the 28th, and did a test flight there on the 30th. It's gonna need a variety of work (including inspections) anyway before it gets dry-leased to Amazon, plus painting, so I wouldn't be surprised if spent some time at ILN before paint and the official dry-lease. They will work out then whatever this problem was. (Of course, they could just fix this problem and throw it back out there for now, but it seems like most of the rest of the fleet is currently-working, so this should be a good time.)
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:12 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
A day late would be great. I have a SmartPost shipment (seller in MA) that was to be delivered "before Christmas (2019)"... still not here. 9 days overdue and counting. Fedex Ground didn't even make it to the hand-off in Chino CA by 24 Dec., much less to the DDU in Honolulu. What happens in Chino? USPS takes an item to its NDC in Bell CA (for the LA area), then by air to its SCF at HNL?


It goes on a cargo ship to Hawaii. Also, Hawaii is an exception to the SurePost rules, since UPS hands off the package to the USPS in the mainland for SurePost, which then the package will also go on a cargo ship. If you have UPS My Choice you can upgrade it to Ground and then UPS will fly it to Hawaii on a dedicated flight for UPS Ground packages.


1337, thanks for the explanation about the Hawaii exception: by container ship from CONUS to the SCF at HNL.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:16 am

So I was completely wrong about 409AZ, the latest conversion, which I thought would be getting some work at ILN for a while. After some difficulty getting out of Phoenix on the 19th, 20th and 21st during Peak, it didn't fly for a week, until ATI finally brought it back to ILN on 12/28. After being worked on there for just six days, it's back in the air doing ILN-ONT turns.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:04 pm

wjcandee wrote:
So I was completely wrong about 409AZ, the latest conversion, which I thought would be getting some work at ILN for a while. After some difficulty getting out of Phoenix on the 19th, 20th and 21st during Peak, it didn't fly for a week, until ATI finally brought it back to ILN on 12/28. After being worked on there for just six days, it's back in the air doing ILN-ONT turns.


Oops, I didn't notice. Dry-lease took place on 12/31 (probably a year-end necessity).
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:39 pm

wjcandee wrote:
So I was completely wrong about 409AZ, the latest conversion, which I thought would be getting some work at ILN for a while. After some difficulty getting out of Phoenix on the 19th, 20th and 21st during Peak, it didn't fly for a week, until ATI finally brought it back to ILN on 12/28. After being worked on there for just six days, it's back in the air doing ILN-ONT turns.


Neat. I was watching it after Christmas and noticed it stuck in PHX then lost track of it. Interesting it was originally doing ONT out and backs before it went on its grand walkabout and got lost.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:20 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Does AMZL use SurePost (UPS with last mile on USPS) at all? I presume not, since the Fedex analog (SmartPost) is notorious for late deliveries.

Yes, believe just for non prime or limited quantity shipments though.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:45 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
Does AMZL use SurePost (UPS with last mile on USPS) at all? I presume not, since the Fedex analog (SmartPost) is notorious for late deliveries.

Yes, believe just for non prime or limited quantity shipments though.


I have seen in the past a P.O. Box Prime shipment using SurePost as well, although I am not sure if Amazon still does this. The shipment was to a friend in Missouri and took about 5 days. However, the second time I shipped to that same address Amazon used their organic linehaul network with the last mile delivered by USPS and was delivered in two days like Prime shipments should. I know Amazon says they don't guarantee two-day delivery to P.O. Box addresses (probably because it limits their choices of shipping carriers), however, it seems pretty random for P.O. Boxes whether or not you will get a Prime delivery.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:34 pm

Spacepope wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
So I was completely wrong about 409AZ, the latest conversion, which I thought would be getting some work at ILN for a while. After some difficulty getting out of Phoenix on the 19th, 20th and 21st during Peak, it didn't fly for a week, until ATI finally brought it back to ILN on 12/28. After being worked on there for just six days, it's back in the air doing ILN-ONT turns.


Neat. I was watching it after Christmas and noticed it stuck in PHX then lost track of it. Interesting it was originally doing ONT out and backs before it went on its grand walkabout and got lost.


You didn't really lose track of it. It just wasn't going anywhere. I am aware of one thing that needed to be done to it, and six days sounds doable, so maybe it was done. Or maybe it will just be back later. Still needs paint eventually, too.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:12 am

So ATI covered the Atlas SKF-ILN flight today (1/4). No big deal; when flights can't be flown, Amazon asks other carriers to protect if the service failure is known in advance. And I don't have the current stats on GTI's performance vs ABX vs ATI. I do know that ABX has been doing well covering the limited service tasked to it, but I don't know GTI at the moment.

Regardless, this was notable to me only because ATI sent N1049A down for the protecting flight. Probably a coincidence, but worth a chuckle. Or a sigh.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:34 am

wjc, has AMZ exercised any more of its rights (warrants) to purchase the stock of ATSG and of AAWH (Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc.) beyond the 8.1% of AAWH previously acquired?
https://www.wnewsj.com/news/14572/updat ... five-years
https://fintel.io/soh/us/aaww/amazon-com
https://www.benzinga.com/news/earnings/ ... 3-earnings

ATSG stock has outperformed AAWH. I'm puzzled by why AMZ invested in AAWH but not in ATSG.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:15 am

WN: I'm not sure that Amazon has ever exercised any of its warrants. Beneficial ownership means that among other things you have the right to acquire a certain number of shares, and you have to report that. That's the situation Amazon is in at 8.1%. At least according to the 13G that you referenced. I'm just not fully up on all of this, but my understanding was that Amazon hasn't exercised its warrants with any of the companies. I can't say that I know for sure right now, of course, but every time I've looked into it when it has come up because Amazon has filed a 13G as certain warrant rights have vested, it's been clear that all they were reporting that they "owned" was a vested right to purchase, not that they were reporting having made an actual purchase of shares.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:12 am

As far as the ATSG warrants, we'll know more by Feb. 2021, when the 5 year period expires... but ATSG common is currently at ~USD 25/share, and AMZ' warrants provide a right to buy at USD 9.73/share. I think AMZ will exercise all the ATSG warrants, but with no increase in AAWW unless Atlas resolves the issues with its pilots. I can see AMZ' logic in these purchase rights ... the operators' growth was fueled by the AMZL contracts, so AMZ want to share in that growth. Who could have predicted such divergent performance between the two operators?

Picking up on an earlier exchange we had about risk management, I wouldn't be surprised to see AMZL move some frames from Atlas to ATI.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:15 am

WN: And for what it's worth, if it's of interest, it appears from the way that the 13Gs are worded that the agreement that conveys the warrant rights actually does so in terms of dollars. The 13G is always filed as of a particular date, and references the volume of shares outstanding as of that date as reported by the warrant-issuing company (T), then calculates how many shares Amazon could purchase as of that date of shares to be newly-issued by the company (A), then adds the two together as the denominator with A as the numerator, so A/A+T=8.1 percent, for example. That would seem to confirm our thought that Amazon currently owns no shares, because the percentage is calculated based on the A in the numerator and added to the T to get the denominator, in other words that the percentage is determined by figuring how many shares Amazon could buy and dividing by the number of shares outstanding if it did, and what the resulting percentage would be.

The reason I think that how many Amazon could buy is measured in dollars is that they say in the note that if the stock price goes down, Amazon would be entitled to more shares, and if it goes up, Amazon would be entitled to fewer shares. So the volume of stock Amazon would seem to be entitled to buy would seem to calculated in dollars (or they're entitled to buy X shares at $X per share, with more or fewer shares actually issued depending on the variance of the market price from the strike price, which is effectively the same thing).
Last edited by wjcandee on Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:22 am

WPvsMW wrote:
As far as the ATSG warrants, we'll know more by Feb. 2021, when the 5 year period expires... but ATSG common is currently at ~USD 25/share, and AMZ' warrants provide a right to buy at USD 9.73/share. I think AMZ will exercise all the ATSG warrants, but with no increase in AAWW unless Atlas resolves the issues with its pilots. I can see AMZ' logic in these purchase rights ... the operators' growth was fueled by the AMZL contracts, so AMZ want to share in that growth. Who could have predicted such divergent performance between the two operators?

Picking up on an earlier exchange we had about risk management, I wouldn't be surprised to see AMZL move some frames from Atlas to ATI.


If Atlas doesn't improve the operation of its airlines, I think it's a fair bet that it will lose more frames to ATSG. That was the message that Amazon sent loud and clear. Given that Atlas seems recently to have promoted a guy to President who was basically already the COO, it doesn't seem like anything is gonna change there anytime soon unless the investors revolt, and I agree that they're likely to lose more frames. And now that the NTSB preliminary report is out and we all know what happened in Houston and can figure out where the blame is going to fall, the question is what other business they may lose (like the military, which has to realize that this could have been a planeload of troops).

I'm still not 100-percent certain on how the warrant arrangement works, so I'm not totally-clear on how much Amazon is participating in the appreciation in ATSG's stock price.

When Atlas got their contract, I heard a lot of strident talk about how the Big Boys were coming in to show ATSG how it's done. Oh, well. That their management is a bunch of deluded morons is not the fault of the people who were saying that.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:00 am

wjcandee wrote:
.... I agree that they're likely to lose more frames.
* * *
I'm still not 100-percent certain on how the warrant arrangement works,


ATSG owns, inter alia, ATI and ABX... but (at ATSG) ABX does not carry any AMZ cargo, only ATI... correct?

Unless the warrant provisions are unusual (e.g., resale restrictions), the warrant holder can buy at the stated price, and immediately sell at market price, or (more commonly, if cash is not needed) hold for a year (or more) to minimize capital gains tax.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:00 am

Thanks! I do have an understanding of how warrants work generally, but this one seems weird as to the number of shares to be issued...

Six Amazon-dry-leased 767-200s are operated by ABX (744ax, 749ax, 750ax, 768ax, 774ax, 795ax), and 6 are operated by ATI (714ax, 791ax, 739ax, 761cx, 762cx, 763cx). That was the original 12 (with 255CM covering for 739 while it underwent a very-long overhaul after being returned from another lease). It was generally thought that ABX would be allocated at least half of the eight 767 300 conversions as they were completed, for the total ATSG initial fleet of 20 aircraft. The Pilot Forums were filled with lots of barbs from the ABX pilots about how ATI was a crap operation and couldn't handle even what it was already given, how ABX was Hete's baby and ABX was gonna get all the new frames, etc. Just a lot of trash talk, much like they did with the old DHL Airways when that rivalry/debacle began. Then ABX went out on strike at the beginning of Peak, and, in my view more importantly, took out ads implying that Amazon customers weren't going to get their holiday packages on time, because the pilots were so tired. ABX didn't get another aircraft after that. ATI will end up with 20 more from that point. 26 to ATI. 6 to ABX. I of course don't know for sure that the remaining four conversions coming this year will go to ATI rather than ABX, but it stands to reason. Which is unfortunate, given that the ABX pilot group is highly-experienced and has produced reliable performance.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:55 am

wjc, thanks for the reminder about the original 6 762s at ABX. I mistakenly thought that after the strike ABX's frames were now all DHL or ABX livery. Rather, it's that ABX isn't seeing (to date) any of the new frames in Amazon Air livery.

The big story in this season's Peak is that AMZL did it domestically without FX lift and with turmoil at Atlas and a strike at ABX (even though it was only one day, it was just before Thanksgiving, and AMZL had to be deep into contingency planning for Peak). A remarkable transition in a few months; quite an achievement by AMZL and ATI operations.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:34 pm

Oooh. I didn't mean to suggest that there was an ABX strike this Peak. It was a couple of years ago. But yeah Amazon did a better job this year of delivering its own packages than FedEx or UPS did delivering packages generally.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:02 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
wjc, thanks for the reminder about the original 6 762s at ABX. I mistakenly thought that after the strike ABX's frames were now all DHL or ABX livery. Rather, it's that ABX isn't seeing (to date) any of the new frames in Amazon Air livery.

The big story in this season's Peak is that AMZL did it domestically without FX lift and with turmoil at Atlas and a strike at ABX (even though it was only one day, it was just before Thanksgiving, and AMZL had to be deep into contingency planning for Peak). A remarkable transition in a few months; quite an achievement by AMZL and ATI operations.


AFAIK, none of the 762s for either ABX or ATI are in prime livery, all are supposed to be in their respective house livery, and especially not in DHL schemes.
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:24 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Oooh. I didn't mean to suggest that there was an ABX strike this Peak. It was a couple of years ago. But yeah Amazon did a better job this year of delivering its own packages than FedEx or UPS did delivering packages generally.


My bad, the 2019 "protest" at ABX was in April. The 2016 strike at ABX was in November. The 2019 "protest" was unusual... Atlas, Southern, and ABX pilots, but not ATI, walking the picket line.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/l ... 439886002/
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:53 pm

Spacepope wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
wjc, thanks for the reminder about the original 6 762s at ABX. I mistakenly thought that after the strike ABX's frames were now all DHL or ABX livery. Rather, it's that ABX isn't seeing (to date) any of the new frames in Amazon Air livery.

The big story in this season's Peak is that AMZL did it domestically without FX lift and with turmoil at Atlas and a strike at ABX (even though it was only one day, it was just before Thanksgiving, and AMZL had to be deep into contingency planning for Peak). A remarkable transition in a few months; quite an achievement by AMZL and ATI operations.


AFAIK, none of the 762s for either ABX or ATI are in prime livery, all are supposed to be in their respective house livery, and especially not in DHL schemes.


This ...
https://aircargoworld.com/allposts/amaz ... ce-to-atl/
would be a frame dry-leased to AMZL and operated by ABX, but no ATSG-owned (CAM-owned???) but non-leased frames are in Amazon livery?
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:57 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Oooh. I didn't mean to suggest that there was an ABX strike this Peak. It was a couple of years ago. But yeah Amazon did a better job this year of delivering its own packages than FedEx or UPS did delivering packages generally.


My bad, the 2019 "protest" at ABX was in April. The 2016 strike at ABX was in November. The 2019 "protest" was unusual... Atlas, Southern, and ABX pilots, but not ATI, walking the picket line.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/l ... 439886002/


The migration of frames from Atlas to ATSG began in Sept. 2019 ... 2 B763Fs. Risk management for Peak, set in motion.
https://www.freightwaves.com/news/amazo ... -operation
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:34 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
wjc, thanks for the reminder about the original 6 762s at ABX. I mistakenly thought that after the strike ABX's frames were now all DHL or ABX livery. Rather, it's that ABX isn't seeing (to date) any of the new frames in Amazon Air livery.

The big story in this season's Peak is that AMZL did it domestically without FX lift and with turmoil at Atlas and a strike at ABX (even though it was only one day, it was just before Thanksgiving, and AMZL had to be deep into contingency planning for Peak). A remarkable transition in a few months; quite an achievement by AMZL and ATI operations.


AFAIK, none of the 762s for either ABX or ATI are in prime livery, all are supposed to be in their respective house livery, and especially not in DHL schemes.


This ...
https://aircargoworld.com/allposts/amaz ... ce-to-atl/
would be a frame dry-leased to AMZL and operated by ABX, but no ATSG-owned (CAM-owned???) but non-leased frames are in Amazon livery?


I'm not 100% quite sure what you're getting at with that however it looks like the frame in the photo is a -300. Looks like they just used a stock photo for the story.
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WPvsMW
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:45 pm

Based on a bit of searching, I think you are correct. None of ATSG's owned, but non-leased, frames (whether ATI or ABX) are in Amazon livery. Only the frames dry-leased by AMZL wear Amazon livery.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:57 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
wjc, thanks for the reminder about the original 6 762s at ABX. I mistakenly thought that after the strike ABX's frames were now all DHL or ABX livery. Rather, it's that ABX isn't seeing (to date) any of the new frames in Amazon Air livery.

The big story in this season's Peak is that AMZL did it domestically without FX lift and with turmoil at Atlas and a strike at ABX (even though it was only one day, it was just before Thanksgiving, and AMZL had to be deep into contingency planning for Peak). A remarkable transition in a few months; quite an achievement by AMZL and ATI operations.


AFAIK, none of the 762s for either ABX or ATI are in prime livery, all are supposed to be in their respective house livery, and especially not in DHL schemes.


This ...
https://aircargoworld.com/allposts/amaz ... ce-to-atl/
would be a frame dry-leased to AMZL and operated by ABX, but no ATSG-owned (CAM-owned???) but non-leased frames are in Amazon livery?


If it's painted "Prime Air", it's a 767-300 dry leased to Amazon by Atlas's Titan (or Andromeda) leasing subsidiary or by ATSG's CAM (or it's one of the 737-800s dry-leased by GECAS to Amazon).

There are two all-white 767-300s flown by Atlas that are actually now dry-leased to Amazon, and there are two all-white ones that are Atlas-owned spares (not part of the 17 currently dry-leased to Amazon and operated by Atlas). And N409AZ, which was dry-leased to Amazon on 12/31/19, hasn't been painted Prime Air yet post-conversion, but will be.

The 767-200s are a different story. Originally, it was kicked around that they would be painted all-white, but in the end they got the branding of the operating carrier. At ABX, they now actually have enough routes for 7 aircraft, so they're running one of their other frames, on a rotating basis, for Amazon. They also sub in one of their aircraft when an Amazon one is in the shop. Only one of the ABX-operated 767-200s is currently in DHL colors, n783ax. The other ones that were in DHL livery have been repainted in ABX livery. 783ax is rarely used for Amazon, but I don't think there's a flat-out prohibition against it. It's not a DHL dry-lease. The Amazon dry-leases don't get operated for anything but Amazon without Amazon's permission, which, as a practical matter, it doesn't give. (I believe it has once or twice, in special circumstances, but that's it. Or maybe it was asked and denied it. I don't recall exactly.)

ATI doesn't have as many spare aircraft, but they do have 255CM, 360CM, 395CM and 376AN. 395CM is in full ATI livery, like the 757 combis, and often does military stuff, but does do Amazon when necessary. All of the aircraft that ATI operates are owned by CAM. Same with ABX.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:57 pm

wjc, thanks for the summary. I know the details are upthread, but in pieces, so it's very convenient to have a summary in a single post.

Do you know why AMZL wanted the 762Fs in house livery and the 763Fs in Prime livery? House livery could make return at lease expiration less costly, implying short-term flexibility, and Prime livery implies longer term fleet?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:42 pm

The CAM 762s were originally on 5-year leases and the 763s were on 7-year leases (from CAM). Amazon extended the 762s by an additional 2 years, and got an option for 3 more years after that. It extended the 763s an additional 3 years, to 10 years, with an option for 3 years after that. The 10 additional 763s that it leased from CAM (6 delivered in 2019 and 4 in 2020) are for 10 year leases with an option for 3 more. So Amazon is making longer commitments to the equipment as its network solidifies and it understands the hardware better.

Maybe the thought was that it wasn't worth painting them in the initial stages, but the reality is that CAM repaints aircraft all the time for shorter-expected-periods than that. N798AX, the highest-cycle 767 in the ATSG operation, was repainted within the last year or so even though it is almost out of cycles. So I don't know what the thinking was.
 
sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:04 am

wjcandee My friends think I'm bad with the airline I track. Good Lord man, I bow to superiority in your knowledge of the Amazon Fleet..
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

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WPvsMW
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:23 am

CAM can get repainting at cost (i'm guessing) from PEMCO, so there's less to depreciate ... but that really doesn't answer why paint a frame nearly out of cycles.
https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listing/t ... 3393730965

I think there are B777Fs in AMZL's conversion future. They don't need a tilt-nose, but they sure need volume.
 
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:40 am

Update on the International Bridge package out of LAX, I haven't seen any movement since it left LAX on January 2. Amazon says the delivery is tomorrow, but tomorrow is Epiphany which is a postal holiday in Puerto Rico. However, could there be a direct flight between LAX and SJU now that I am unaware of? I think International Bridge on CVG-SJU goes on the DHL flight. I know from what I read about International Bridge they don't really have the best track record for on-time packages; so I hope it gets there soon.
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jbs2886
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:58 am

WPvsMW wrote:
CAM can get repainting at cost (i'm guessing) from PEMCO, so there's less to depreciate ... but that really doesn't answer why paint a frame nearly out of cycles.
https://www.glassdoor.com/job-listing/t ... 3393730965

I think there are B777Fs in AMZL's conversion future. They don't need a tilt-nose, but they sure need volume.


I think we have new-build 763Fs in Amazon's future (unless Boeing does go ahead with a 764-size freighter variant). As wjc indicated above, Amazon started with short lease terms, but is extending them. I think Amazon has seen the value and we may see significant investment - new build freighters, IMO, will allow Amazon to run the aircraft far more heavily and for longer.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:24 am

wjcandee wrote:
Oooh. I didn't mean to suggest that there was an ABX strike this Peak. It was a couple of years ago. But yeah Amazon did a better job this year of delivering its own packages than FedEx or UPS did delivering packages generally.

Helped that they seemed to have forgotten their Next Day guarantee starting the week of Thanksgiving and sent everything 2 day.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:30 am

WN: As to painting, ATSG has always used Dean Baldwin, I mean for like decades, but recently has sent a few aircraft to upstart Landlocked Aviation at CWF, which is now doing a lot of work for ATSG long-time partner DL. (DL has done the ATSG engine overhauls, at least on the GEs, forever, and sends airframes to ILN for heavy maintenance. I have to assume that they gave a good recommendation. Landlocked gets it done in basically the same time frame as Dean Baldwin, so maybe the difference is price (or availability). Whatever. We know Dean Baldwin does an excellent job at any of its 3 locations, and from the repeat business, it may be that Landlocked is also doing good work.

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