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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:32 am

The history of this is that they went to ATSG for the experiment. Ramp-up as fast as they wanted once they decided to do it would have been a challenge with an ATSG-only approach. Atlas was marketing the living crap out of Amazon, and sold their stellar reputation and solid systems, particularly regarding Titan, which did ultimately prove itself up to the task. Amazon accordingly added AAWW as a provider. That's all they were expecting to do.

Remember when everyone at Atlas was going to show ATI how it's done? I do. AAWW started off looking like a good choice.

When Amazon wanted to add 737s, they didn't go to Northern or some crap carrier; they went with AAWW, which had a subsidiary that already flew 737s. It was a significant opportunity for AAWW, and Amazon made the mistake of believing AAWW's executives that they were eager to solve their companies' labor issues and would do so shortly. We all know how that went: Southern was a mess, couldn't staff the aircraft. And Atlas's ability to staff the 767s was going down the drain, too. Amazon went to Sun Country and moved two 767s to ATI not because they were looking to save money, but because Atlas mismanaged its way into a crisis, playing hardball with a union that was determined to play hardball with AAWW. So it goes to the Courts, with nobody willing to do anything the Court doesn't order them to do, which takes freakin' forever. And then the union defies the Court, for reasons that I do actually understand.

You don't think Bezos's acquaintance who is the head of Northern hasn't been blowing in his ear for years? Or Amerijet? Or Mesa (which Amazon doesn't use and won't be using)? Or, for that matter Swift, which would be happy to fly some 767s? If Amazon just wanted low-cost lift, they would go to one of those carriers and really spread it around, like DHL does. Instead, they went with exactly TWO organizations, one of which screwed the pooch, forcing them to look elsewhere if they wanted to continue to grow.

AAWW and Kalitta will get a little beaten-up by the Asia mess at the moment. But China is rapidly coming back online, and the epidemic there is deep on the back end of the Farr's Law curve, allowing for things to move back to normalish pretty-soon, and there is pent-up demand for shipments both TO and FROM China, some of which will need to move by air for a while while the ports sort themselves out, which they are doing. However, there is an opportunity for both (as well as for the likes of WGN) to carry what would have been belly cargo over the Atlantic for the next thirty days; I'm sure forwarders are pricing lift like crazy right now. How quickly they pull that together remains to be seen, but Atlas and Kalitta both have a long history of being able to rise to that kind of challenge, and I'm guessing that the music will be stopping for the moment as far as classes at the US Majors go, pending, of course, preparations for resumption in 30-60 days. How they would plan to protect the pilots while they are Over There in the Schengen Zone remains to be seen, but it is something that should be able to be worked out sensibly.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:04 am

Whiplash6 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
UA444 wrote:
What’s to stop Amazon from just buying one of the airlines they contract with and just use that certificate and ops?


Why borrow the trouble? Look at the attitude of a typical airline employee ("race to the bottom", "whipsaw", when in fact Amazon is prioritizing quality, dependable service).

I couldnt disagree more. If you want quality, you pay for it. You don’t start spreading out to the likes of Southern, Sun Country, and Mesa. It’s 100% a whipsaw. Lack of dependability may shift service here and there as they start up, but just like Delta Connection in the mid 2000’s it will eventually be all about the lowest bidders.


Perhaps on the 737 operation, but on the 767 operation they’re pretty consistent with the carriers they’re working with.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:15 am

CALMSP wrote:
with JFK/SFO coming online, any changes to current stations? (ORD coming online soon as well)


Well, I still see flights to SCK and SMF. Looks like SCK loses one outbound to BWI and a corresponding inbound, but keeps the IAH and CVG flights, still on GTI, albeit with different flight numbers. SMF gets an ATI 763 from JFK and the same from ABE, which then go outbound to AFW and TPA. (And the AFW flight goes on back to JFK, completing the circle.) ABE still seems to have at least 3 (and maybe 4) flights per day.

Also, I see an ABX 767-200 (N797AX) doing BWI-ORD-ONT tonight (3/12-13/20). So ORD is here!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:24 am

Whiplash6 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
$30 million probably buys a lot of land near ILN. Not a clue. I will have to put on my thinking cap. Perhaps recognizing the resilience and work ethic of the folks in Wilmington proper, they're planning a different kind of facility in the area for after the sort migrates over to CVG.

I saw an amazon job posting for a mx supervisor in ILN. Could be related.


That's a great find, Whip! I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier. They plainly do keep an eye on what AMES does to "Amazon's" aircraft, as they should, with that work of course directed by ATI and ABX, the operating carriers. But that could be something else. (Assuming that it's not supervising maintenance of Amazon's sorting equipment...)
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:31 am

7673mech wrote:
Hangar space is tightening up across the country.
All airlines that do maintenance in Asia are scrambling to find space domestically.


I wonder to what extent, with the travel ban to the Schengen District in Europe, airlines are choosing to use the downtime to maintain or paint aircraft. My guess is that the effect is minimal, because the majors have maintenance plans for their aircraft many months in advance, and they're not holding back during this season because of high usage. But it does present something of an opportunity, albeit not one for the ships that go to China to be worked on. I did a random check at CWF, for example, relating to painting, and they just seem to have the same flow from DL of one 757, one A320/A319/B717, and one A333 in there at all times for post-summer painting. One of a type leaves, and another of the same type arrives to start the process.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:01 am

sunking737 wrote:
American has started today that all 16 767-300 will be parked by end of May. All 757 will be gone by end of 2021... Any guess who may pick up more 767-300"s ??


autopiloton wrote:
ATSGs earnings today said they are still planning on 4 airplanes this year for Amazon plus three more for UPS. The incoming CEO said that they plan to have all of the incoming feed stock spoken for. I guess its anyone's guess as to how many if any of them will be spoken for by Amazon. Does anyone know how many airplanes ATSG plans to take possession of this year?


Well, ATSG has options on all but like 2 of the 767s, and maybe even those two as well. I think ATSG were planning on taking them over a longer period than the next few months, but AA usually has them parked for a while before CAM exercises the option and buys them. I don't think that AA pulling them down quicker would require ATSG to exercise its options faster. I expect they will just let them sit longer.

MO11 keeps us up to date as to when ATSG signs for the aircraft (converts its options), and I see 3 at ROW that they now own: 394AN, 395AN and 385AM. 392AN is also at ROW, and retired before 385AM, so maybe they picked up that one as well and I just didn't document it. (I don't think so, though, because the FAA still shows it registered to American Airlines.)

As for other feedstock, they also have JA8286 at ILN since early March (an already-converted BCF from ANA Cargo) which is presumably being bridged, as is N431AZ, which was JA8362, another BCF from ANA Cargo that has been at ILN since mid-November and has yet to be sent to paint. (The first ANA Cargo BCF that ATSG bought was painted in UPS colors at CWF and leased to UPS as N394UP in December 2019.)

And at ILN there is also N544LA, which was only at MMEX (the other IAI/Bedek conversion line, which can do one aircraft at a time) for less than 3 months. So I really don't know what's up with that. Does it now have a cargo door? Is it even going to go to an ATSG carrier, or is it just getting heavy work done at ILN, where AMES has become kind of a 767 maintenance mecca? Or was it getting pre-conversion work done in MEX and it now goes over to TLV for the cargo door? So many possibilities. I probably just missed whatever reporting there was on it.

Right now, CAM has 6 aircraft at TLV in various stages of conversion. 304CM, 308CM, 153DL, 379AA, 384AA and 381AN, in that order. 304CM and 308CM are ex-LATAM.

So...6 in conversion at TLV. 4 retired AA 763s at ROW, 3 of which CAM now owns. 2 ex-ANA BCF aircraft at ILN, at least one of which is going to Amazon. And N544LA. So 12 in various stages of the process.

Unless I missed a retirement or two in the last month, that leaves 16 AA 767-300s yet to be retired. Almost all of them will also be feedstock for ATSG if it wants them.

To answer Autopiloton's question directly, I think that we can assume that Amazon is going to want more 763s from CAM than their current order, if ATI can continue to staff them, perhaps even by Peak this year. Assuming 6-7 months for conversion, painting and conformity on the AA aircraft (which don't need bridging from a foreign carrier), that means that anything for Peak would need to make its way over to TLV within a month, and anything by YE2020 would need to make its way over there within 2 months, give or take. Which may happen. Or it is possible that things will start heading over there in the next 3-4 months for Amazon delivery early next year.

Finally, I do know that there are a couple of other carriers that would like to dry-lease 767-300s from ATSG, but have been stymied by the Amazon and UPS commitments. Some of those may be among the aircraft currently in TLV or heading there soon. Or not.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri Mar 20, 2020 4:05 pm

Ownership of N544LA transferred from (LATAM-created trust) to Jetran to CAM on St. Patricks Day.
 
MajMattMason
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:50 pm

CALMSP wrote:
UA444 wrote:
What’s to stop Amazon from just buying one of the airlines they contract with and just use that certificate and ops?


Answer.... nothing. But the question is “could they be forced to by the FAA (prodded along by the lobbyists from FDX and UPS) to assume the cost and liabilities of owning/running an airline. The precedent is there.

can't see that happening as they do not want to deal with unions.


They might have no choice.
 
MajMattMason
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:52 pm

UA444 wrote:
What’s to stop Amazon from just buying one of the airlines they contract with and just use that certificate and ops?


Answer.... nothing. But the question is “could they be forced to by the FAA (prodded along by the lobbyists from FDX and UPS) to assume the cost and liabilities of owning/running an airline. The precedent is there”.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:42 am

It's a myth that the FAA "forced" UPS to abandon the contractor model. IPX was formed to try to get operating rights to Japan, using Orion Air aircraft and crews, to carry a combination of UPS and DHL packages. FedEx was seeking that authority as well, and trashed the competence and experience of UPS and DHL (the docket before the ALJ at the DOT is almost hilarious to read this many years later), and ultimately FedEx got the route. UPS tried to appease the DOT by buying DHL out of the joint venture, but IPX still didn't get the route. That was the genesis of UPS Airlines, which took in some Orion pilots in its startup phase.
 
MajMattMason
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:49 pm

wjcandee wrote:
It's a myth that the FAA "forced" UPS to abandon the contractor model. IPX was formed to try to get operating rights to Japan, using Orion Air aircraft and crews....


Granted.
But I wouldn’t be surprised if, when push comes to shove, FDX/UPS lobbying efforts will force the FAA’s hand in few years.
 
southbound35
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:58 pm

wjcandee wrote:
It's a myth that the FAA "forced" UPS to abandon the contractor model. IPX was formed to try to get operating rights to Japan, using Orion Air aircraft and crews, to carry a combination of UPS and DHL packages. FedEx was seeking that authority as well, and trashed the competence and experience of UPS and DHL (the docket before the ALJ at the DOT is almost hilarious to read this many years later), and ultimately FedEx got the route. UPS tried to appease the DOT by buying DHL out of the joint venture, but IPX still didn't get the route. That was the genesis of UPS Airlines, which took in some Orion pilots in its startup phase.


Could you point me in the direction to get the history on this topic? Always been curious.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:03 pm

MajMattMason wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
It's a myth that the FAA "forced" UPS to abandon the contractor model. IPX was formed to try to get operating rights to Japan, using Orion Air aircraft and crews....


Granted.
But I wouldn’t be surprised if, when push comes to shove, FDX/UPS lobbying efforts will force the FAA’s hand in few years.


Obviously, I can't say what any political entity will do, and FedEx is an aggressive manipulator of same. Me, I don't really see what the issue is. Amazon identifies routes it wants the contractors to fly, and they either say they can or they can't. One route a few years ago technically violated the day/night transition rule in the ABX contract and the pilots initially gave a waiver for it, but when they started playing hardball with ABX they identified it as a contract violation, so ABX asked Amazon to give it to another carrier, which it did. Maintenance is the responsibility of the operating carrier on whose certificate the Amazon aircraft is registered, but Amazon has hired qualified people to make sure its assets are being properly cared-for. Staffing, training, operating procedures are the responsibility of the operating carrier. Seems like the right functions are designated to the right player.

FedEx may take its "liberation" from Amazon as a license to lobby against Amazon Air, but given the hole that its strategy blew in its revenues, we will see how it feels a few years from now about that strategy and whether adjustments are made. Amazon is still in a position to hurt FedEx by forbidding Marketplace sellers from using it on Amazon Marketplace orders, so we will see what effect that leverage has. UPS went the other way, is handling a large volume of Amazon orders, and is hardly going to bite the hand that feeds it.

But you may well be right. We will see.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:06 pm

southbound35 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
It's a myth that the FAA "forced" UPS to abandon the contractor model. IPX was formed to try to get operating rights to Japan, using Orion Air aircraft and crews, to carry a combination of UPS and DHL packages. FedEx was seeking that authority as well, and trashed the competence and experience of UPS and DHL (the docket before the ALJ at the DOT is almost hilarious to read this many years later), and ultimately FedEx got the route. UPS tried to appease the DOT by buying DHL out of the joint venture, but IPX still didn't get the route. That was the genesis of UPS Airlines, which took in some Orion pilots in its startup phase.


Could you point me in the direction to get the history on this topic? Always been curious.


I think there are some news articles still on the Internet from the time. The problem in searching is that International Parcel Express is so generic that just that alone will pull up a bunch of irrelevant stuff. Try something like "International Parcel Express" in quotes and then a term on the same line like UPS or DHL or Orion and see if that doesn't get you into some of the relevant articles. I remember reading the docket from the ALJ hearing on the IPX application several years ago; perhaps it is still up on the Feds' docket management system. When they're available, those files are really detailed and complete, with exhibits, transcripts, etc.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:13 am

N394AN was to fly from ROW to ILN on Sunday, March 22, 2020, to get ready to head into conversion, but it stopped the climb at about 10,000 feet, made a couple of turns and landed back at ROW about 30-ish minutes after takeoff.

She had only been stored in the desert for about 5.5 months, but it's not uncommon with these ex-AA aircraft to see them have a couple of false starts before they complete that initial post-AA flight to ILN.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:30 pm

How's the network being affected by Ronageddon? We've seen massive logistical issues here at grocery stores so many people have taken to ordering food and other supplies online. Has the air tempo increased at all, or is it still pretty much flying as usual?
The last of the famous international playboys
 
rdt757
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:41 pm

Spacepope wrote:
How's the network being affected by Ronageddon? We've seen massive logistical issues here at grocery stores so many people have taken to ordering food and other supplies online. Has the air tempo increased at all, or is it still pretty much flying as usual?

5Y Amazon flight are all operating as scheduled however a lot heavier than we saw at peak in December.
 
sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:50 pm

The first Amazon 737-800F for SCX is due state side tomorrow (tuesday). Going to ATS at PAE for conformity. No tail # was given to me. Could this be the #6 bird that Southern was spose it get N542RL?? Anyhow the 800F are starting to make their way state side. They are Not being flown by SCX crews just yet.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:26 pm

"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
rdt757
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:45 pm

Amazon added 4 Atlas flights today (23 March) for overflow.

5Y4005 CVG-DFW 19:30z departure on N1511A
5Y4595 BWI-BDL 20:30z departure on N1487A
5Y4596 BDL-ONT 22:30z departure on N1487A
5Y4578 SFO-RFD 23:00z departure on N1409A
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:56 pm

Spacepope wrote:
How's the network being affected by Ronageddon? We've seen massive logistical issues here at grocery stores so many people have taken to ordering food and other supplies online. Has the air tempo increased at all, or is it still pretty much flying as usual?


The network expanded a bit on the recent schedule change, so there's that, but I don't see more than a couple of additional flights being added (yet) beyond that. Amazon is definitely being pounded with orders at what was an unexpected time of year, but so far they're doing well, hiring 150,000. The planes are much fuller than would be typical for this time of year, I'm hearing. Of course, most stuff goes by ground delivery, which is moving hard and fast.

On the grocery store thing, people here keep blaming folks for "stocking up" and panic buying, without realizing that the restaurant shutdown and dislocation of lunch eaters from work to home, and dinner-eaters from the occasional (or regular) night out for food means that much more food is coming through the grocery store supply chain than the restaurant supply chain, which is set up for things to be packaged in bulk and therefore can't just easily be dumped at supermarkets. Most folks don't want a #10 can of Sysco Vanilla Pudding or Heavy Mayonnaise for their kitchen, but all restaurants do, and a huge portion of food packaging in this country is set up that way -- packaged in bulk.

At the restaurants in which I was a partner, I insisted that my GMs use really good toilet paper for our restrooms; it still came in cases of giant rolls that fit special dispensers. Our cleaning and disinfecting solutions (windex, floor cleaner, degreaser, sanitizer, etc.) came in 5-gallon bottles of concentrate from Ecolab that were diluted via a special plumbing unit from which one would fill the wash bucket or trigger-sprayer. I replaced those containers of concentrate about once every couple of months despite heavy volume, the stuff was so concentrated. The whole effort is to buy things in sizes and concentrations that minimizes the need for frequent deliveries, so my 2-3 trucks per week were almost-entirely made up of fresh foods (and some limited frozen, like fries, ice cream, etc.). When you shut down the demand for those items, you expand the need for similar consumer-sized items for use in the home. Hence the current disruption. Yeah, the toilet paper rush initially was from people stocking up. The President of WalMart initially blamed this on stocking up that he thought would decline pretty-rapidly once everyone had bought some. What he missed was that, to put it politely, most people employ a significant percentage of their toilet paper use at work, school or home. Whether that's one trip per day or less depends on the individual, but it means a huge shift from use of industrial-packaged toilet paper for pooing elsewhere than home to home-packaged toilet paper for entirely-home-pooing.

And that's the reason for some short-term shortages and vastly-increased throughput of consumer-sized everything at supermarkets, whose consumption is otherwise largely-predictable based on time of year, etc. Because people increasingly don't want to go outside (at least here in NYC), many have upped their reliance on delivery, including Amazon and Walmart. While predictable, it was still a bit of a jolt to get an email this morning from our building manager that one of the tenants had tested positive for COVID-19 and recuperating at home. So that's literally in my home. Glad I have been washing my hands every time I get off the elevator

It's still damn near impossible to find toilet paper here in NYC -- it goes out the door as fast as it hits the shelves at the supermarket. In fact, I was just in the Morton Williams (a very nice chain) supermarket in my neighborhood, and they have adapted amazingly. Food shelves were largely-full, although stock was turning over quickly; they're also selling lots of deli-prepared foods and keeping up. The meat section was reasonably-well-stocked. Interestingly, the fresh fruits and vegetables were abundant. (Why? Because a case of lettuce or apples is packaged exactly the same whether it's going to a restaurant or a supermarket, so it's easy to just send it to the place that needs it.) But toilet paper and paper towel -- forget it. That was the one place that the shelves were totally-bare. You can be sure that every chief engineer at every office building in the City is despondent that his building uses non-standard rolls of TP, because otherwise they would be pilfering it and selling it on ebay.

I myself finally gave up on Walmart and Amazon in the Hunt for TP, and bit the bullet and ordered a case (20 rolls) of Angel Soft Professional from an industrial vendor I know. It is packaged with many more sheets on the roll than even the largest consumer rolls, so a case is gonna last me a long time, but it will fit. I was a little surprised to find out that even they are scraping the bottom of the barrel, because plenty of people figured out that this was a workable substitute.

So it's not just "stocking up" that's the issue. It's that people are pooing at home almost-exclusively, and all that paper that was normally used at restaurants, work and school is sitting idle. This explains why Amazon is trying so hard to source and distribute just basic stuff -- it isn't getting out reliably to individual stores, and the extraordinary turnover requires much more warehouse space than normal.

It's fascinating to watch, and should lead to a continuation of fuller aircraft for Amazon.
Last edited by wjcandee on Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:04 pm

sunking737 wrote:


That answers your question! Your suspicions were correct! Except it's 547 that's flying.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:39 pm

GTI 3716 took an interesting route to HNL today from RIV. Forgot the coffee?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 6#244265cc
 
sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:20 pm

wjcandee wrote:
sunking737 wrote:


That answers your question! Your suspicions were correct! Except it's 547 that's flying.


I was so excited I didn't re read my own post.. Oh Amazon prime tail numbers not N000SY
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:00 am

sunking737 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
sunking737 wrote:


That answers your question! Your suspicions were correct! Except it's 547 that's flying.


I was so excited I didn't re read my own post.. Oh Amazon prime tail numbers not N000SY


It will be interesting to see whether they renumber with an NxxxxA tail. I just checked N547RL on the faa site and it doesn't currently have a number change pending. I would think we would see one, though.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:46 am

But Sun Country has five N56xxA registrations and five N79xxA registrations reserved.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:23 am

Wjcandee - your post on why the run on groceries and TP was good. Another thing about groceries, those who don't cook regularly are more apt to buy things they will not get around to using - it takes a while to get the hang of buying and cooking meals.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:04 am

MO11 wrote:
But Sun Country has five N56xxA registrations and five N79xxA registrations reserved.


I was told by former co worker. Amazon tails who knows Upon further research you are right
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
rdt757
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:29 am

wjcandee wrote:
GTI 3716 took an interesting route to HNL today from RIV. Forgot the coffee?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 6#244265cc

HF Comms went down, crew did a circle to troubleshoot and got them operational again.
 
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yochai
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:39 pm

Work at TLV is going very slowly due to restrictions on non essential work in Israel at the moment, I would not expect 304CM or 308CM to fly before the second half of April the earliest.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:58 pm

yochai wrote:
Work at TLV is going very slowly due to restrictions on non essential work in Israel at the moment, I would not expect 304CM or 308CM to fly before the second half of April the earliest.


Thanks, Yochai! Any chance they'll increase how many aircraft MEX can do at one time? (Right now it's one at a time.)

Do you know whether there is an aircraft in conversion at MEX now, given that N544LA is done and sent to ILN? (Only took 2.66 months!)
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:01 pm

rdt757 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
GTI 3716 took an interesting route to HNL today from RIV. Forgot the coffee?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 6#244265cc

HF Comms went down, crew did a circle to troubleshoot and got them operational again.


Good work! I would expect those flights to be packed to the gills. (Same with the Aloha Cargo 767-300 flying the LA-to-HNL route.)
 
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yochai
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:38 pm

wjcandee wrote:
yochai wrote:
Work at TLV is going very slowly due to restrictions on non essential work in Israel at the moment, I would not expect 304CM or 308CM to fly before the second half of April the earliest.


Thanks, Yochai! Any chance they'll increase how many aircraft MEX can do at one time? (Right now it's one at a time.)

Do you know whether there is an aircraft in conversion at MEX now, given that N544LA is done and sent to ILN? (Only took 2.66 months!)


I have no idea regarding the MEX site and their output, under 3 months sounds very very fast for a conversion, my hunch is a heavy check rather than conversion.
 
rdt757
Posts: 9
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:11 pm

wjcandee wrote:
rdt757 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
GTI 3716 took an interesting route to HNL today from RIV. Forgot the coffee?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 6#244265cc

HF Comms went down, crew did a circle to troubleshoot and got them operational again.


Good work! I would expect those flights to be packed to the gills. (Same with the Aloha Cargo 767-300 flying the LA-to-HNL route.)

5Y3716 had 109,000 lbs onboard yesterday. 5Y3718 RIV-HNL which leaves a couple hours later had 76,000 lbs onboard.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:17 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Whiplash6 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
$30 million probably buys a lot of land near ILN. Not a clue. I will have to put on my thinking cap. Perhaps recognizing the resilience and work ethic of the folks in Wilmington proper, they're planning a different kind of facility in the area for after the sort migrates over to CVG.

I saw an amazon job posting for a mx supervisor in ILN. Could be related.


That's a great find, Whip! I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier. They plainly do keep an eye on what AMES does to "Amazon's" aircraft, as they should, with that work of course directed by ATI and ABX, the operating carriers. But that could be something else. (Assuming that it's not supervising maintenance of Amazon's sorting equipment...)


Any more developments on this? I'd love to see them keep a presence at ILN once CVG opens.
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:52 pm

yochai wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
yochai wrote:
Work at TLV is going very slowly due to restrictions on non essential work in Israel at the moment, I would not expect 304CM or 308CM to fly before the second half of April the earliest.


Thanks, Yochai! Any chance they'll increase how many aircraft MEX can do at one time? (Right now it's one at a time.)

Do you know whether there is an aircraft in conversion at MEX now, given that N544LA is done and sent to ILN? (Only took 2.66 months!)


I have no idea regarding the MEX site and their output, under 3 months sounds very very fast for a conversion, my hunch is a heavy check rather than conversion.


I had the same reaction about the 2.6 months, but it was reported as having been "converted". Perhaps one of our pals who gets by ILN can shoot a photo or just tell us whether it has a cargo door in it.

Possible that it had the heavy check prior to going to MEX. The folks at MEX have been getting pretty-quick; the fastest one they did so far was 3.66 months, N765CK. And Bedek has always claimed 3 months as the time necessary to put in a cargo door; a significant time-consumer is the other work that is usually done at the same time. As I learned from you the practicalities of what kind of corrosion is discovered and what kind of parts are needed and generally what condition the ship is in and how much work Bedek otherwise has in the shop all drive the turnaround time.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to have had that reaction. There's a firefighter at ILN that occasionally posts pictures on his instagram or whatever of things at work; I'll try to find that feed again.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:47 pm

rdt757 wrote:
5Y3716 had 109,000 lbs onboard yesterday. 5Y3718 RIV-HNL which leaves a couple hours later had 76,000 lbs onboard.


Wow. I had been under the impression that these flights tended to cube out long before they weight-out. 109,000lbs of payload is almost 50,000kg, which is starting to approach the max payload weight. More like a load of blue jeans flying to South America than a typical Amazon flight. Interesting to see what the product mix was; must have been dense stuff.

(A buddy flew the 767 on a few real-freight flights (i.e. heavy ones) after many hours of flying more-typical parcel flights, and said it was fun to fly the plane where it really had to show its stuff, but it reminded this pilot how relatively-non-taxing Amazon and parcel flights usually are on the aircraft.)
 
HPRamper
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:33 pm

wjcandee wrote:
rdt757 wrote:
5Y3716 had 109,000 lbs onboard yesterday. 5Y3718 RIV-HNL which leaves a couple hours later had 76,000 lbs onboard.


Wow. I had been under the impression that these flights tended to cube out long before they weight-out. 109,000lbs of payload is almost 50,000kg, which is starting to approach the max payload weight. More like a load of blue jeans flying to South America than a typical Amazon flight. Interesting to see what the product mix was; must have been dense stuff.

(A buddy flew the 767 on a few real-freight flights (i.e. heavy ones) after many hours of flying more-typical parcel flights, and said it was fun to fly the plane where it really had to show its stuff, but it reminded this pilot how relatively-non-taxing Amazon and parcel flights usually are on the aircraft.)

I would surmise that much of the freight increase at Amazon is weightier everyday items for people avoiding the grocery store. Foodstuffs, especially canned and jarred items, are a lot more dense than one might think. That second flight with 76k sounds more in line with a standard AMZ load. In my weight and balance experience, a payload over 100k on a 767F is abnormally heavy.
 
rdt757
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:53 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:44 pm

HPRamper wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
rdt757 wrote:
5Y3716 had 109,000 lbs onboard yesterday. 5Y3718 RIV-HNL which leaves a couple hours later had 76,000 lbs onboard.


Wow. I had been under the impression that these flights tended to cube out long before they weight-out. 109,000lbs of payload is almost 50,000kg, which is starting to approach the max payload weight. More like a load of blue jeans flying to South America than a typical Amazon flight. Interesting to see what the product mix was; must have been dense stuff.

(A buddy flew the 767 on a few real-freight flights (i.e. heavy ones) after many hours of flying more-typical parcel flights, and said it was fun to fly the plane where it really had to show its stuff, but it reminded this pilot how relatively-non-taxing Amazon and parcel flights usually are on the aircraft.)

I would surmise that much of the freight increase at Amazon is weightier everyday items for people avoiding the grocery store. Foodstuffs, especially canned and jarred items, are a lot more dense than one might think. That second flight with 76k sounds more in line with a standard AMZ load. In my weight and balance experience, a payload over 100k on a 767F is abnormally heavy.


I don't remember Amazon hitting over 94,000 lbs during peak. The past week there have been numerous flights with payloads +105,000 lbs. The 738F fleet is seeing payloads +42,000.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:39 am

Thanks rdt757. Very interesting, and remarkable how hard Amazon is trying to meet this sudden and unexpected demand within pretty-normal delivery times.

Although this is just tangential, to the extent that we look at what's happening at ILN, I see 4 DL 767s rolling in there tomorrow. 2 from JFK and 2 from ATL. Currently expected to be N1604R, N394DL, N192DN and N169DZ. I don't know if they're just going to take advantage of the significant space available at ILN for storage, or if they'll get some work done while there. DL has run 4 aircraft through ILN for HMVs since September, and there's a fifth one being worked on there now. Maybe they'll take advantage of the downtime, or maybe this is just for storage. That they're all 767s suggests the possibility that some work will be done. (Or -- gasp!! -- they're gonna line up to go over to TLV for conversion!! Generally, however, they're stored in the desert for a while before they find themselves headed for ILN, so unlikely, even if these are weird times.)
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:31 am

N1049A flying an ATI flight ILN-JFK tonight did an air return to ILN. Swapped the cargo to a different aircraft and off to JFK a couple of hours down.
 
A388
Posts: 7981
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:33 pm

Hi everybody,

My apologies if this has been asked already but does the Covid-19 have an effect on the cargo transported meaning fleet adjustments due to less products being bought online or more products being bought? I can imagine selected medical supplies are skyrocketing now because of the Covid-19 crisis but I'm not sure about other products(?)

A388
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:00 pm

A388 wrote:
Hi everybody,

My apologies if this has been asked already but does the Covid-19 have an effect on the cargo transported meaning fleet adjustments due to less products being bought online or more products being bought? I can imagine selected medical supplies are skyrocketing now because of the Covid-19 crisis but I'm not sure about other products(?)

A388


We just started discussing this actually. Go ahead and scroll up to post 186 and join in the conversation from that point.
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MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:09 pm

CAM took possession of N392AN on Monday.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:47 am

Spacepope wrote:
How's the network being affected by Ronageddon? We've seen massive logistical issues here at grocery stores so many people have taken to ordering food and other supplies online. Has the air tempo increased at all, or is it still pretty much flying as usual?


On the demand side Amazon is offering more promotional money for their slow shipping. They normally offer $1 off of digital content for their slow shipping, I ordered something today, and they’d moved that up to. $3 off. I didn’t need the thing immediately, so I opted for that.
 
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1337Delta764
Topic Author
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:36 am

I just ordered a pair of shorts and apparently after landing in ONT from STL it was missent to the ONT5 Sortation Center in San Bernardino and is now stuck there. Hopefully it doesn't get lost. Amazon says it should still arrive by the delivery date. ONT5 shares its building with ONT2, and Amazon runs a direct linehaul route between ONT2 and AZA5 (the new Sortation center for Phoenix).
 
USAirKid
Posts: 613
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:39 am

wjcandee wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
How's the network being affected by Ronageddon? We've seen massive logistical issues here at grocery stores so many people have taken to ordering food and other supplies online. Has the air tempo increased at all, or is it still pretty much flying as usual?


On the grocery store thing, people here keep blaming folks for "stocking up" and panic buying, without realizing that the restaurant shutdown and dislocation of lunch eaters from work to home, and dinner-eaters from the occasional (or regular) night out for food means that much more food is coming through the grocery store supply chain than the restaurant supply chain, which is set up for things to be packaged in bulk and therefore can't just easily be dumped at supermarkets. Most folks don't want a #10 can of Sysco Vanilla Pudding or Heavy Mayonnaise for their kitchen, but all restaurants do, and a huge portion of food packaging in this country is set up that way -- packaged in bulk.


I think that would account for some of the shortages, but I'm also seeing shortages in pet food. I usually get my cat's food delivered from Amazon, and one of the items got delayed to the point I cancelled it. I also looked at Chewy.com and they're also having exceedingly high demand.

A fair bit of this has to be people stocking up, there is no other way to account for all of it.
 
wjcandee
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:43 am

yochai wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

Do you know whether there is an aircraft in conversion at MEX now, given that N544LA is done and sent to ILN? (Only took 2.66 months!)


I have no idea regarding the MEX site and their output, under 3 months sounds very very fast for a conversion, my hunch is a heavy check rather than conversion.


So let's talk about N544LA. This is what I get for trusting sources like Skyliner against my own better judgment. They said that 544LA had been converted in MEX. It made sense that it could have been converted in MEX. it was certainly at MEX for 2.66 months. And MEX is where IAI/Bedek has its second 767-300 conversion line. Although, as Yochai pointed out, 2.66 months is awfully-short for a conversion, which Bedek usually puts at 90 days just for installing a cargo door.

Yochai was right. It wasn't converted. I know this because I saw a photo of it at MIA on March 11, after it left MEX. (March 11 is the date it flew MIA to ILN.)

It still has windows.

Now the photographer didn't bother to shoot it from the side that would have had the cargo door, so I can't say for sure that it doesn't have one, but it has windows. So it's not a completed conversion.

After they did whatever they did to it at MEX, they painted it all-white. Okay, so that isn't completely-crazy, even if it will be going somewhere for a cargo door. But get this: they then painted "Boeing 767-300ER", in that Boeing typeface, near the tail over the new white paint. Does that sound like something anybody would do if the thing was going in a week to TLV for conversion? Me neither. It's possible, but it seems a little, well, extra.

So now the thing is at ILN, where it has been for over two weeks, newly-painted white, still having windows. We do know that CAM bought it as of March 23, 2020. We know that it hadn't changed hands yet when it flew to ILN from MIA, because Jet Test and Transport flew it up there for the prior owner. So I really don't know what's up with it. Is it going to Omni as a pax plane? But if so, why is it at ILN? Omni usually refurbs and outfits its aircraft at MZJ, as it did with N432AX (formerly N389AA). Is it going to TLV despite the fancier-than-necessary paint job? And if it's going for conversion, why not do it at MEX? Mexico is still working at a normal pace. Israel is not. Of the six aircraft that CAM has at TLV right now for conversion, 3 of them would be home by now under normal circumstances. Yes, the two ex-LATAM aircraft (304CM and 308CM) have taken longer than normal for reasons I can guess that have nothing to do with the virus, but the Covid slowdown in Israel is going to make the whole line even later than it already is. So if were going to be converted, MEX would have been a good place to finish it. As I say, I dunno. And inquiring minds are certainly curious...
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 2139
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:24 am

I'm seeing a lot of items in backorder, usually termed "arriving April 27th", I suspect the goods are on a slow boat from China.

It is going to be interesting to see if Amazon can keep its increased volume going after the dust settles. Probably some drawback, say half way between the 2019 volumes and the high levels now.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:39 pm

An aside, we went on a rainy day drive which finished with a look/see at the Amazon site just north of the Bremerton airport. Lots of equipment and acres of dirt, maybe partly on a hill about 50 feet above airport, but likely per corona virus on 'stop order', If we continued southish on the road it would have ended up joining Old Clifton Highway, hence northish to the Tacoma highway(16). I could see an improved access to 16 if the economy ever booms again.
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