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darloscott
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 8:11 pm

The Amazon network in Europe currently covers 9 airports, across UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain at present. It’s primarily operated by ASL (9 aircraft) with 2 rotations operated by DHL operator EAT Leipzig.
I understand ASL have 10x B738F on order - one has just arrived in China for conversion (EI-FNU ex Air Italy) but this is for the TNT/Fedex LGG ASL Belgium operation rather than the Ireland operation.
More detailed info available if you’d like it on the European network.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 8:42 pm

darloscott wrote:
The Amazon network in Europe currently covers 9 airports, across UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain at present. It’s primarily operated by ASL (9 aircraft) with 2 rotations operated by DHL operator EAT Leipzig.
I understand ASL have 10x B738F on order - one has just arrived in China for conversion (EI-FNU ex Air Italy) but this is for the TNT/Fedex LGG ASL Belgium operation rather than the Ireland operation.
More detailed info available if you’d like it on the European network.


Thanks, Darloscott! I did not realize that ASL had expanded so much into Amazon flights. Last I looked, Amazon had EAT doing flights for them in the day and then for DHL at night, and I thought the same kind of thing was true at ASL, but on a more-limited basis than it has become, apparently. As far as I know, these are all full-service track charter flights; in other words, Amazon doesn't own or lease the aircraft, and the operator provides everything, or perhaps Amazon pays for fuel separate from the contract price for service.

But it sounds like you know, so please feel free to give us a little more color on anything that you think is interesting, including anything you have heard about transitioning to the kind of arrangement we have here in the US, which is Amazon dry-leases the aircraft, and the vendor provides crew, maintenance and insurance. Amazon pays for fuel.
 
darloscott
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 8:57 pm

Full network as far as I know it at present is
ASL Ireland (all B734, some leased in at present)
ABR1255/6 CDG-LEJ-CDG
ABR1361/2/3 EMA-MAD-MXP-EMA
ABR1441/2/3/4 CGN-MXP-CGN-MAD-CGN
ABR1471/0 EMA-CGN-EMA (currently leased in Cargologic Germany B734)
ABR1480/1 CGN-EMA-CGN
ABR1537/8/9 HAJ-EMA-MXP-HAJ
ABR1551/2/3/4 EMA-LEJ-MXP-MAD-EMA
ABR1623/4/5/6 SEN-MXP-SEN-MXP-SEN
ABR1737/8/9/40 SEN-BCN-SEN-MAD-SEN (currently leased in Titan B734)

EAT Leipzig
BCS6823/4 MAD-LEJ-MAD (believe this has been an A300 recently?)
BCS6891/2 EMA-LEJ-EMA (usually B752)

As far as I know they’re all just chartered rather than Amazon operated.
Amazon have been advertising recently for their own staff to start an air operation in Leipzig, Germany. Presumably this will be the start of a self-owned operation rather than currently subchartered.

As I understand ASL have 10x B738F on order, which could be linked.
 
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sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 9:14 pm

I have this figured out. SY is flying TPA-CVG-TPA with one plane. Then a ONT-MSP-CVG-ONT with another plane. With the 3rd sitting in TPA on stand by.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 9:54 pm

Darloscott: Thank you for all that detailed information!
 
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sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 11:04 pm

From Aviator Daily News 25MAY2020......Amazon Air (US) fleet will grow its Prime Air fleet to about 200 planes — up from 42 now — in the next seven or eight years, according to a report.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Mon May 25, 2020 11:09 pm

sunking737 wrote:
From Aviator Daily News 25MAY2020......Amazon Air (US) fleet will grow its Prime Air fleet to about 200 planes — up from 42 now — in the next seven or eight years, according to a report.


Will Amazon go for new builds, are there enough planes suitable for conversion if they want so many?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 12:29 am

Jay: You know, they call it a "report", but it's not. It's some academic speculation. I don't think Amazon knows what it's going to do. They have committed to a strategy, but where they take it is going to depend on so very many things. Do I think they have probably planned for the possibility of growing to 100 767-300s? Yes I do. Do I think that if the economics of the 737-800s in their network end up being favorable and the aircraft are the right size to go to smaller cities out of the CVG hub when it opens, and maybe enable a 1-day air product in a meaningful way, that they could go to 100 or more of those as well? Yes I do. But I think the jury is still out on the 737-800, and it's role isn't crystal-clear, and Southern didn't help. We'll see whether they appear to be more productive with Sun Country. So, yeah, there are doubtless Amazonians working furiously to answer the question of how do we best grow to 300 aircraft in 10 years if we want to, and how do we envision our role as a complementer or competitor to UPS and FedEx, and what do we see as their role with us in 10 years, and what are the possibilities there, but that doesn't mean that it's actually going to go there.

As to new-build, it depends upon how many aircraft Amazon wants to add, and how fast. Amazon now has basically 51 767s. And the airlines have a few spares that they can use to flex that number a bit.

There are 16 unclaimed AA 767-300s in the desert. There are 3-more Stateside unconverted AA 767-300s now owned by CAM. So that's 19.

Then there are 4 CAM aircraft in conversion at TLV that aren't expressly-destined for anyone publicly. (Three AA, one LATAM.) So that's 23 of known CAM feedstock that could if they wanted to be placed at Amazon. So that's 74 right there. I think Bedek could do 12 a year at TLV in a pinch, plus another 4, say, at MEX. So if Amazon is happy with say 15 per year additional, it's currently-doable, without even considering the BCF side of the fence, which has significant surge capacity (with enough notice for Boeing to assemble the kits).

Right now, DL has 50 767s parked. How many of those are coming back? Maybe all, because maybe it's the right plane for the next couple of years. Or maybe they cut the fleet by half and there's another 25 available to convert, some of which are on the youngish side for cargo, which would be fine in a fire sale. Or maybe they find out that Pepsid taken early upon SARS-CoV-2 exposure blunts the infection so that everyone gets only mild-to-moderate symptoms, and everyone can frolic free again. Or they find out that the asymptomatic infection rate is so significant that 30 percent of people already have immunity, and the virus is such a poor-spreader in summer that it basically dies out and doesn't return, like SARS did. And we're back flush in 6 months and DL retires the 767s in favor of some Airbus product or combination of other aircraft.

Regardless, cobbling together another 25 767-300s isn't an impossible task right now, and then you're at 100.

HOWEVER, if Boeing is so stressed that it will make a fire-sale deal on new-build 767-300Fs, and the economics of the investment over say 15 years makes the reliability and prompt availability of new-builds something that Amazon desires, then I have no doubt they would go for it. Perhaps there would be a portion of the fleet that flies 18 hours a day and a portion that does not. For most out-and-backs from a CVG hub, those aircraft are going to be sitting a lot, even if they do two cycles a day. Amazon gets significant utilization right now from all the bypass flying it's doing because DHL/CVG can't handle the volume, but the new Amazon hub sure can. You don't need (and certainly don't want the capital expense of) a new-build 767-300F to fly ABE-CVG-ABE-CVG-ABE. Yikes. You might as well dump bags of money on the tarmac and light it on fire.
Last edited by wjcandee on Tue May 26, 2020 12:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 12:53 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
From Aviator Daily News 25MAY2020......Amazon Air (US) fleet will grow its Prime Air fleet to about 200 planes — up from 42 now — in the next seven or eight years, according to a report.


Will Amazon go for new builds, are there enough planes suitable for conversion if they want so many?

And who will be doing all that flying for them? Frankly I’m surprised Kalitta still hasnt jumped in .
The last of the famous international playboys
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 1:08 am

Spacepope wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
From Aviator Daily News 25MAY2020......Amazon Air (US) fleet will grow its Prime Air fleet to about 200 planes — up from 42 now — in the next seven or eight years, according to a report.


Will Amazon go for new builds, are there enough planes suitable for conversion if they want so many?

And who will be doing all that flying for them? Frankly I’m surprised Kalitta still hasnt jumped in .


I think between ATI and Atlas, particularly in this pilot market, they're not going to have trouble adding another 10-20 over the course of a couple of years. It was a big deal for ATI to staff up from say 5 to 10, scaling up the operation. But by the end of this year, ATI will be operating 31 767s and 4 757 Combis (the 4 757Fs, which they flew for DHL, are currently idled). So adding 5-10-15 aircraft to a 35-plane operation is eminently-doable over time. And frankly their big ramp up when they got the Amazon planes went surprisingly-smoothly, and people like working there, so I don't see an issue. I do see that this level of exposure to one client is a risk, but at least there is limited capital investment on the ramp up (although you do have sunk costs on pilot training, and incidental costs of expansion). At some point, there is always risk and one probably doesn't want to walk away from an opportunity of that magnitude.
 
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sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 1:51 am

I know of a Compass Air Captain going over to Atlas to fly 747. He flew EMB 170/175. Talk about a jump in size. I agree no one knows what Amazon is going to do. I do know that the SY planes are going out early, which I'm sure Amazon likes. It is SOP with SY if they are loaded with pax and ready to go they do push early up to 5 min. A quick check shows 15 min early push on flights for Amazon TPA-CVG-TPA.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 2:56 am

sunking737 wrote:
I know of a Compass Air Captain going over to Atlas to fly 747. He flew EMB 170/175. Talk about a jump in size. I agree no one knows what Amazon is going to do. I do know that the SY planes are going out early, which I'm sure Amazon likes. It is SOP with SY if they are loaded with pax and ready to go they do push early up to 5 min. A quick check shows 15 min early push on flights for Amazon TPA-CVG-TPA.


A refreshing change from the Atlas pilot union's BOOT campaign, which has now been enjoined. They would hold to the scheduled departure time, even if ready to push, just to screw with the company. Great labor relations at Atlas.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 5:08 am

A random oddity from Amazon.

I have an order of Boraxo Hand Soap, that Amazon had drop shipped via UPS. (Drop shipping is where company A sells an item, then turns around, places an order with company B for the item to be shipped directly to company A's customer.)

For those wondering, Amazon is listed as the seller of the item, not another organization.

I've only seen this before with items that have unique shipping and storage requirements. (A fire extinguisher. Gummy vitamins during the summer, which needed to be shipped with an ice pack.) Theres nothing unique about Boraxo that would prevent it from being stored in and shipped from an Amazon warehouse.

Per the UPS My Choice email, the company that Amazon dropped shipped the item from is S. P. Richards. A bit of searching around revealed that they're primarily a supplier to small/medium regional office supply distributors..

I'm also not sure the previous times Amazon drop shipped items if they had the seller pay for the shipping on their UPS account. I seem to recall that while it was drop shipped, Amazon paid for the shipping on their UPS account. In this case it very clearly was paid for on S.P Richard's account.

Also, for a bit of Amazon history, this is how Amazon initially started. They didn't have any warehouses, and had all of the books drop shipped from their supplier.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 5:57 am

Interesting story and history.

A slight clarification: Drop shipping is when a retailer takes an order for a product and has an arrangement with the manufacturer that it will be shipped directly from the manufacturer (or its wholesaler) rather than from the retailer's stocking warehouse. That's drop shipping. Not company A turning around and placing an order with some totally-unrelated company B (and I'm not saying that that's what you intended to say, just that it's a little-narrower a definition.) The issue is that the product is stocked at the manufacturer (or its wholesaler), not the retailer, and shipped from the manufacturer (or its wholesaler) directly.

With cleaning products right now, that's actually a much-better method because of high-demand, low stocks and time to restock. Makes stuff available now without additional steps, even if Amazon loses some control and branding, and incurs perhaps more expense for the shipping/warehousing arrangement (because it can't combine items in the box to have fewer shipments, and probably doesn't get its shipping price, and can't use it's own lower-cost network). That might be why it happened that way. Walmart.com has been doing the same with, among other things, some cleaning products.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 1:37 pm

wjcandee wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
I know of a Compass Air Captain going over to Atlas to fly 747. He flew EMB 170/175. Talk about a jump in size. I agree no one knows what Amazon is going to do. I do know that the SY planes are going out early, which I'm sure Amazon likes. It is SOP with SY if they are loaded with pax and ready to go they do push early up to 5 min. A quick check shows 15 min early push on flights for Amazon TPA-CVG-TPA.


A refreshing change from the Atlas pilot union's BOOT campaign, which has now been enjoined. They would hold to the scheduled departure time, even if ready to push, just to screw with the company. Great labor relations at Atlas.


Yes, I figured Amazon and just how much they love Atlas and all their issues is why they would possibly move away to another widebody operation like Kalitta for the projected growth/expansion.

Also thanks for the clarification on other non-Amazon ops. The HNL service is a fun one, lots of flight hours per day doing a round trip. No prime air to HNL yet though?
The last of the famous international playboys
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 3:44 pm

Spacepope wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
I know of a Compass Air Captain going over to Atlas to fly 747. He flew EMB 170/175. Talk about a jump in size. I agree no one knows what Amazon is going to do. I do know that the SY planes are going out early, which I'm sure Amazon likes. It is SOP with SY if they are loaded with pax and ready to go they do push early up to 5 min. A quick check shows 15 min early push on flights for Amazon TPA-CVG-TPA.


A refreshing change from the Atlas pilot union's BOOT campaign, which has now been enjoined. They would hold to the scheduled departure time, even if ready to push, just to screw with the company. Great labor relations at Atlas.


Yes, I figured Amazon and just how much they love Atlas and all their issues is why they would possibly move away to another widebody operation like Kalitta for the projected growth/expansion.

Also thanks for the clarification on other non-Amazon ops. The HNL service is a fun one, lots of flight hours per day doing a round trip. No prime air to HNL yet though?


None on ATI. There are two Amazon Air flights RIV-HNL daily (3716 and 3718), but they're operated by Atlas.

Oddly, a lot of Atlas customers put up with a lot of crap from them and their operation, and continually are assuaged by their inaccurate promises of improvement without significant consequence. DHL certainly falls into that category. AMC falls into that category. They may threaten, but they don't actually do much in the grand scheme of things. Hell, DHL continues to give them more work. More surprisingly, the military didn't take flights away after the PSM fiasco or the Houston fiasco, which put the PSM fiasco into a different context, in my view, nor after a bunch of crappy service due to pilots gigglingly finding ways to delay military troop flights over one holiday. Only Amazon took planes away, and even they only took away two. Most businesspeople, in my experience, are remarkably non-confrontational, go-along, get-along folks who don't want to upset the apple cart too much and don't make decisions sufficiently on the basis of objective metrics. I'm a totally-fun guy as long as you're performing; if you're not, I don't care what a good guy you are -- your company is screwing up and I have given your company enough time to get its house in order so now here come the consequences. You're still a good guy to have a beer with; it's not personal, but I have an obligation to my company and my people to require your company to perform. Simple. Remarkable how many folks are genuinely shocked that I would hold them to their deal or word.

As to Kalitta, besides the fact that Connie doesn't want Amazon as a warrantholder, there's the issue of the 767s in general. It's a very-different kind of flying than culturally its folks are used to, and if you look at APC, the only whining and bitching you ever see from Kalitta folks about anything is from the 767 guys who do "boring" DHL out-and-backs from CVG. They may need to evaluate whether the 767 revenue is worth the cultural issues it is causing. So far they seem to think it is, but it could also be a cancer growing within an otherwise pretty-proud-and-happy workforce.
 
N212R
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 5:44 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Amazon is helping Sun Country out by dramatically-advancing the delivery and in-service dates of the aircraft that Sun Country will be operating.


Where would the world be without the humanitarian efforts of the altruists at Amazon? :roll:
 
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sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 7:35 pm

Its more like SY is helping Amazon. Amazon asked SY if they would fly the cargo jets for them. They came to an agreement last Dec
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 9:15 pm

N212R wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Amazon is helping Sun Country out by dramatically-advancing the delivery and in-service dates of the aircraft that Sun Country will be operating.


Where would the world be without the humanitarian efforts of the altruists at Amazon? :roll:


[Deleted torching comments...]

The fact is that Amazon IS helping Sun Country by moving up the onboarding dates, helping them generate some cash flow in otherwise-difficult times. As many as 100 pilots will now have something to do that otherwise would not have, as the industry slowly recovers.

This may or may not benefit Amazon. Maybe having the aircraft moving sooner is a good thing, maybe it's premature. So maybe it's a win-win. I didn't say it wasn't. Maybe it neither helps nor hurts Amazon. I didn't say Amazon was an altruist. I said they were helping Sun Country out, which they are.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 11:16 pm

And N741AX is over the Pacific on ILN-HNL (on 5/26/20), the first leg of its delivery flight.
 
darloscott
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 11:40 pm

Worth mentioning that ASL (Ireland) have added another destination to the European network with a flight from Cologne to Katowice & back using one of the existing aircraft as ABR1482/3 which appears to have started yesterday (Mon 25th).

Edit: I think Katowice may have been used as one of the trial destinations a few years ago?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue May 26, 2020 11:59 pm

darloscott wrote:
Worth mentioning that ASL (Ireland) have added another destination to the European network with a flight from Cologne to Katowice & back using one of the existing aircraft as ABR1482/3 which appears to have started yesterday (Mon 25th).

Edit: I think Katowice may have been used as one of the trial destinations a few years ago?


Thanks! So interesting! With your help, now something for us to watch!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed May 27, 2020 12:00 am

N443AZ (formerly N360CM) went for a 3 hour test run today from ILN to ILN. Presumably getting close to going into service for Amazon at ATI.

Next up: N449AZ, formerly N153DL. Planned for early July.
 
N212R
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed May 27, 2020 12:54 am

wjcandee wrote:
I said they were helping Sun Country out, which they are.


And I would belatedly say to Sun Country, "be careful what you wish for. A good deed doesn't always get rewarded."
 
CX747
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed May 27, 2020 2:53 am

wjcandee wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:

Will Amazon go for new builds, are there enough planes suitable for conversion if they want so many?

And who will be doing all that flying for them? Frankly I’m surprised Kalitta still hasnt jumped in .


I think between ATI and Atlas, particularly in this pilot market, they're not going to have trouble adding another 10-20 over the course of a couple of years. It was a big deal for ATI to staff up from say 5 to 10, scaling up the operation. But by the end of this year, ATI will be operating 31 767s and 4 757 Combis (the 4 757Fs, which they flew for DHL, are currently idled). So adding 5-10-15 aircraft to a 35-plane operation is eminently-doable over time. And frankly their big ramp up when they got the Amazon planes went surprisingly-smoothly, and people like working there, so I don't see an issue. I do see that this level of exposure to one client is a risk, but at least there is limited capital investment on the ramp up (although you do have sunk costs on pilot training, and incidental costs of expansion). At some point, there is always risk and one probably doesn't want to walk away from an opportunity of that magnitude.


Neither ATI nor Atlas is going to have staffing issues in this market. Saw a post the other day from a 5 year AA express guy, looking at going to Atlas over staying put and waiting for flow through.....interesting times when the 747 with a 0200 departure on a ANC-HKG-SYD-LAX-HKG-ANC run is a better gig than a -190 going DFW-LAX-SEA with a 0800 departure!!!

I think ATI will get the lion's share of 767s. The tensions at Atlas between the union and company seemed to have cooled. Their focus now seems to be on the 747/777, almost understanding the 767 opportunity didn't work.

I haven't seen any talk about additional 767 coming onboard either Atlas or Kalitta. I've seen a big push at Atlas for guys heading to the 747. For Kalitta, guys are awaiting backflow spots on the current 747/767 fleet, as senior guys put in bids for the newly arrived 777s.

As for new vs old, I'd love to see an Amazon order for new build 767s! I just don't think it is in the cards right now. They have been very wise in the 767s they have purchased and with the virus, plenty more seem to be available.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed May 27, 2020 3:58 am

CX747 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
And who will be doing all that flying for them? Frankly I’m surprised Kalitta still hasnt jumped in .


I think between ATI and Atlas, particularly in this pilot market, they're not going to have trouble adding another 10-20 over the course of a couple of years. It was a big deal for ATI to staff up from say 5 to 10, scaling up the operation. But by the end of this year, ATI will be operating 31 767s and 4 757 Combis (the 4 757Fs, which they flew for DHL, are currently idled). So adding 5-10-15 aircraft to a 35-plane operation is eminently-doable over time. And frankly their big ramp up when they got the Amazon planes went surprisingly-smoothly, and people like working there, so I don't see an issue. I do see that this level of exposure to one client is a risk, but at least there is limited capital investment on the ramp up (although you do have sunk costs on pilot training, and incidental costs of expansion). At some point, there is always risk and one probably doesn't want to walk away from an opportunity of that magnitude.


Neither ATI nor Atlas is going to have staffing issues in this market. Saw a post the other day from a 5 year AA express guy, looking at going to Atlas over staying put and waiting for flow through.....interesting times when the 747 with a 0200 departure on a ANC-HKG-SYD-LAX-HKG-ANC run is a better gig than a -190 going DFW-LAX-SEA with a 0800 departure!!!

I think ATI will get the lion's share of 767s. The tensions at Atlas between the union and company seemed to have cooled. Their focus now seems to be on the 747/777, almost understanding the 767 opportunity didn't work.

I haven't seen any talk about additional 767 coming onboard either Atlas or Kalitta. I've seen a big push at Atlas for guys heading to the 747. For Kalitta, guys are awaiting backflow spots on the current 747/767 fleet, as senior guys put in bids for the newly arrived 777s.

As for new vs old, I'd love to see an Amazon order for new build 767s! I just don't think it is in the cards right now. They have been very wise in the 767s they have purchased and with the virus, plenty more seem to be available.

If there is going to be a time for Amazon to buy new builds it is right now.

-Boeing is going to be offering sweetheart deals on new builds.
-Amazon is heavily relying on its outside partners to get all the orders delivered right now, which takes a huge chunk of their margins.

There is no doubt that there will be more 767s popping onto the secondhand market in the next 12 months. But they may also be a handy asset for airlines right now. Most are probably paid for, that helps making their continued use a little more palatable.

New builds allow Amazon to Keep growing and have a little more reliability in their fleet. Eventually they have to buy them, there just isn’t enough 767s worthy of conversion to get them up to the scale they will eventually need to be at if they plan on taking almost everything they need in house.

Converting 737s is great on the low end for them, that feedstock is essentially endless. But on their current top end, it’s buy more 767s or hop on the notoriously odd A330 conversions. Personally I think anything above the 767 is overkill for them except for maybe more remote areas, HNL/ANC.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed May 27, 2020 4:34 am

wjcandee wrote:
Interesting story and history.

A slight clarification: Drop shipping is when a retailer takes an order for a product and has an arrangement with the manufacturer that it will be shipped directly from the manufacturer (or its wholesaler) rather than from the retailer's stocking warehouse. That's drop shipping. Not company A turning around and placing an order with some totally-unrelated company B (and I'm not saying that that's what you intended to say, just that it's a little-narrower a definition.) The issue is that the product is stocked at the manufacturer (or its wholesaler), not the retailer, and shipped from the manufacturer (or its wholesaler) directly.


Ahh good point on drop shipping. This was legit drop shipping. The item arrived today and very clearly wasn't shipped by an Amazon FC. The box was tapeless, only held together by interlocking tabs of cardboard. The item actually could move around a little in the box, and there was a packing slip included. Amazon hasn't sent me one of those in years.. They used to be full 8.5x11, then they went to thermal paper the width of a register receipt, and for several years they've gone without. It has to make it fun for UPS when there is a package that is open in transit. Theres no way to confirm whats supposed to be in the box. (Unless Amazon files an electronic packing list directly with UPS?)

I do see the "illicit drop shipping" where company A goes and places an order with company B for delivery. Most frequently it happens when I buy Kirkland Signature items on Amazon. Sometimes they are Amazon fulfilled, but I've also purchased Kirkland Signature items from random sellers on Amazon, and 10 times out of 9, they go and place an order on Costco.com to fulfill the order. Its technically against Amazon policy (and maybe Costco's policy as well?), but it keeps happening.

wjcandee wrote:
With cleaning products right now, that's actually a much-better method because of high-demand, low stocks and time to restock. Makes stuff available now without additional steps, even if Amazon loses some control and branding, and incurs perhaps more expense for the shipping/warehousing arrangement (because it can't combine items in the box to have fewer shipments, and probably doesn't get its shipping price, and can't use it's own lower-cost network). That might be why it happened that way. Walmart.com has been doing the same with, among other things, some cleaning products.


That does make sense. I wonder if this was a pre-written contingency plan, or if was a seat of the pants thing. Probably no way for us ever to know. I can see this being a bit of a win-win for Amazon and S.P. Richards. Amazon needs extra fulfillment capability. Richards's business is probably down since lots of offices/schools/etc are closed, so they get a bit more to fulfill the items.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed May 27, 2020 6:44 am

USAirKid wrote:

I do see the "illicit drop shipping" where company A goes and places an order with company B for delivery. Most frequently it happens when I buy Kirkland Signature items on Amazon. Sometimes they are Amazon fulfilled, but I've also purchased Kirkland Signature items from random sellers on Amazon, and 10 times out of 9, they go and place an order on Costco.com to fulfill the order. Its technically against Amazon policy (and maybe Costco's policy as well?), but it keeps happening.

[,,,]

That does make sense. I wonder if this was a pre-written contingency plan, or if was a seat of the pants thing. Probably no way for us ever to know. I can see this being a bit of a win-win for Amazon and S.P. Richards. Amazon needs extra fulfillment capability. Richards's business is probably down since lots of offices/schools/etc are closed, so they get a bit more to fulfill the items.


See, I still learn something every day. Fascinating that people would sell at an inflated price on Amazon, then order from Costco.com. I would say that that was a wacky business model, but this is exactly what Jet.com did when it was starting up. And they burned through a lot of their startup capital doing this, because they couldn't do it at a profit. [The luckiest thing that Jet and its investors ever had happen to them in their lives was for Walmart to want to have a cooler brand and a cooler "visionary" (at losing money) leader to bring into their e-commerce side] Walmart has made a lot of good moves on the e-commerce side recently (and some dumb ones), and I have no idea how much was from this Marc Lore and how much was from organic WalMart, but the guy who came up with that brilliant business plan is now heavily-involved with WalMart's e-commerce side.

Amazon is pretty-nimble when it has to respond to a situation. One possibility in your case is that because Amazon was limiting the selection of products stocked at its FCs, including cleaning products, and was having challenges loading IN the products from the distributors, the idea of drop-shipping may have come from them or may have come from the product manufacturer, just to be able to sell more of its product through the Amazon channel. Or, as you suggest, Amazon may have been looking for supplies and logistics capability in the household cleaning space that they didn't have to load in and then send out themselves -- something that they would doubtless not want to do in normal times for the reasons I said in my original post. It isn't really the Amazon experience if it comes in a bland, poorly-packaged box. But for desperate customers, they probably would just appreciate that Amazon was able to get them the product!

Thanks for the different and very-interesting discussion and observations!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed May 27, 2020 9:47 pm

And N741AX is now on its way to GUM from HNL.
 
CX747
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu May 28, 2020 1:24 am

wjcandee wrote:
And N741AX is now on its way to GUM from HNL.


Enjoy the Far East our friend.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu May 28, 2020 6:00 pm

A formal announcement has been made for the new fulfillment center in Albuquerque:
https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/am ... e/5741994/
https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/am ... o/5743045/

It looks like it will be on the Westside on Atrisco Vista, not near the Sunport as previously stated. According to one of the articles it appears it will be an Amazon Robotics Sortable fulfillment center.

One thing that seems wrong though is the square footage of the facility. I think that is more likely the footprint of the facility rather than the floor area.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu May 28, 2020 6:21 pm

Amazon has to be thanking the stars that it has moved so much delivery in-house. UPS, which should be counting its blessings since the vast majority of its non-e-commerce business dropped off a cliff, is instead adding surcharges to the very e-commerce customers that kept it alive. It is whining that its mix of residential to business went to 70 percent from 54 percent -- which it should be thankful for, but whatever. Amazon will likely be hit, according to the WSJ, but moreso Bed Bath and Beyond, Best Buy, etc., which have been staying alive by shipping stuff. Thank goodness for the USPS connection and the organic last mile, both of which Amazon can shift additional volume to if UPS doesn't negotiate away some of these increases.

Some of these other businesses, however, don't have that option (FedEx is doing it too), so I feel for them. Sucks that they're keeping employees working and not going under. I'm sure they'll remember this as they explore other options than UPS and FedEx, of which there are at least some.

If the duopolists FedEx and UPS want to make e-commerce companies long for a significant new competitive option (e.g. Shipping by Amazon), they're doing there best to drive those companies into the hands of Amazon should it decide to more-broadly offer that kind of service in the future.

FWIW, I believe that e-commerce helped save the economy by providing channels for the sale of essential and non-essential goods, thus keeping people employed at the manufacturers, distributors and retailers of those items, which otherwise would not have been able to serve the still-existing consumer demand and would have laid off even more folks than were -- and that would have trickled through the economy in places where the media doesn't focus. FedEx and UPS were to be commended for their part in that. That they now seek to hammer those who kept THEM afloat seems, well, you get it.

Remarkably, Amazon has said it intends to continue the employment of the more than 175,000 additional people it hired during the Covid crisis. So they clearly think some of the additional business is going to stick around.
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu May 28, 2020 11:04 pm

Looks like Amazon is shoring up delivery drivers in Albuquerque ahead of the fulfillment center opening:
https://logistics.amazon.com/marketing/opportunity

Right now in Albuquerque shipments from the Phoenix area are usually via USPS (some arriving next-day), while those from elsewhere (most commonly Denver or DFW) are usually via UPS.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu May 28, 2020 11:37 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
Looks like Amazon is shoring up delivery drivers in Albuquerque ahead of the fulfillment center opening:
https://logistics.amazon.com/marketing/opportunity

Right now in Albuquerque shipments from the Phoenix area are usually via USPS (some arriving next-day), while those from elsewhere (most commonly Denver or DFW) are usually via UPS.


Interesting how Amazon seems to be moving away from USPS more and more, thanks to the threats from Trump. Big loss for USPS. Then the next biggest customer will be accused of "exploiting" the postal service, which will then have an even bigger deficit with the Amazon revenue gone.

Also interesting to me that nobody has snagged a photo of N741AX, with its unusual livery, as it passed through HNL and GUM on the way to HKG.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu May 28, 2020 11:49 pm

Someone got it transiting the Bay area.

Looks all white.

https://twitter.com/WatcherCtp/status/1 ... 1546407937
The last of the famous international playboys
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu May 28, 2020 11:56 pm

Spacepope wrote:
Someone got it transiting the Bay area.

Looks all white.

https://twitter.com/WatcherCtp/status/1 ... 1546407937


You are SO much better at finding this kind of stuff than I. Great find! The Raya livery has a lot of white in it, and the sun is bright, but I sure don't see color where there should be color. Interesting.
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 12:08 am

wjcandee wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
Looks like Amazon is shoring up delivery drivers in Albuquerque ahead of the fulfillment center opening:
https://logistics.amazon.com/marketing/opportunity

Right now in Albuquerque shipments from the Phoenix area are usually via USPS (some arriving next-day), while those from elsewhere (most commonly Denver or DFW) are usually via UPS.


Interesting how Amazon seems to be moving away from USPS more and more, thanks to the threats from Trump. Big loss for USPS. Then the next biggest customer will be accused of "exploiting" the postal service, which will then have an even bigger deficit with the Amazon revenue gone.

Also interesting to me that nobody has snagged a photo of N741AX, with its unusual livery, as it passed through HNL and GUM on the way to HKG.


I'm just wondering about rural areas. It would be an expensive proposition for AMZL to serve 100% of rural America, and that is where Amazon depends on the USPS the most (and ironically where the largest share of Trump's voter base is located). It would be next to impossible for even UPS to be price competitive with the USPS in these areas.
 
flyguy1
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 9:46 am

Noticed yesterday, that ATN flew two new Prime Air rotations out of JFK. One went CVG-JFK-SEA, the other went SMF-JFK-ORD. If this sticks, Would make four daily flights out of JFK.
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
enplaned
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 12:47 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Amazon has to be thanking the stars that it has moved so much delivery in-house. UPS, which should be counting its blessings since the vast majority of its non-e-commerce business dropped off a cliff, is instead adding surcharges to the very e-commerce customers that kept it alive. It is whining that its mix of residential to business went to 70 percent from 54 percent -- which it should be thankful for, but whatever.


This is fundamentally the issue with Fedex and UPS - their preferred business is B2B. Delivery to a home is at most a package or two a day, in far flung suburbs, apartments, etc. Fedex and UPS make their money, instead, dropping off 30 packages, 100 packages, etc at a time to businesses. Think about the mailroom at a major corporate HQ and how many packages it receives a day. So that 70/30 split between home/business is far far greater when you look at the number of stops UPS needs to make.

The last mile is a very expensive portion of the total cost of delivery. The economics of that last mile depend on the density of delivery, the density of delivery is massively more for business than for home.

A consequence of Fedex & UPS seeing their business as B2B is that it was always more of a five-days-a-week proposition.

There were two things that were always going to drive Amazon away from UPS & Fedex - one was the five days a week issue (because an Amazon warehouse is an amazingly expensive bit of infrastructure that you need to run 24/7/365), another is Amazon wanting to participate in delivery economics.

If they are delivering 100 items to the same apartment complex, Amazon wants to participate in the fact that it costs less to deliver to that apartment complex. If they are delivering two items to same address, coming from different warehouses, they want to participate in the fact that the last mile cost is split between those two packages.

Something like Amazon Air is, at least at the start, kind of a no-brainer. You pick air routes where you can fill the jet in both directions, leaving the (now even more imbalanced) overflow to UPS, etc. That jet, filled to the gills with packages in both directions, is an economic proposition. For a given package flow, the network becomes less and less economic the bigger it gets, but to start with, Amazon Air gets to skim off the cream (if it is doing it right).
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 1:52 pm

This is precisely the space where automation and autonomous delivery machines will make the biggest impact. Being able to have a battery operated drone/car/whatever be able to do the last mile from an amazon warehouse would be an immense savings to Amazon, and I see it being used where it will be the least likely to cause significant damage to infrastructure first: the deep suburbs and rural USA. They'll get a LOT less push-back is most of the flying is done over open fields and forests, and that's also the most expensive to deliver to areas for anyone. As for dense suburbs and inside of cities, I don't see the liability costs allowing autonomous delivery to even begin there for years and years in any great volume without a legal framework to limit such liability.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 1:54 pm

wjcandee wrote:
N443AZ (formerly N360CM) went for a 3 hour test run today from ILN to ILN. Presumably getting close to going into service for Amazon at ATI.



It was transferred back from ATSG West Ltd to CAM on Wednesday. And Amazon accepted N445CC yesterday.
 
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yochai
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 2:11 pm

Both N308CM and N379AA are scheduled for delivery on Tuesday morning TLV-SNN
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 2:35 pm

MO11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
N443AZ (formerly N360CM) went for a 3 hour test run today from ILN to ILN. Presumably getting close to going into service for Amazon at ATI.



It was transferred back from ATSG West Ltd to CAM on Wednesday. And Amazon accepted N445CC yesterday.


Thanks for that. I forgot that CAM had moved what is now N443AZ to the offshore entity when they did the lease to Air Incheon.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 2:36 pm

yochai wrote:
Both N308CM and N379AA are scheduled for delivery on Tuesday morning TLV-SNN


Interesting that they're back to stopping in SNN after a couple of deliveries that bypassed it and went nonstop to the US, presumably because of COVID.
 
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sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 2:49 pm

SY is now flying MSP -AFW - MSP daily. For Amazon
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 3:27 pm

sunking737 wrote:
SY is now flying MSP -AFW - MSP daily. For Amazon


Keep looking. Where did 547 go last night?
 
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sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 5:17 pm

I know someone went to SJU last night via TPA I will look deeper later
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 6:03 pm

sunking737 wrote:
I know someone went to SJU last night via TPA I will look deeper later


That's it! Thought that was a cool new station.
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 6:17 pm

wjcandee wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
I know someone went to SJU last night via TPA I will look deeper later


That's it! Thought that was a cool new station.


If the SJU service is real, I hope it is a major improvement over International Bridge and UPS Mail Innovations. I just had a package that I ordered for my grandfather that took about a week for UPS-MI to hand off to the USPS at their sorting plant in San Juan.
 
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sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Fri May 29, 2020 9:26 pm

547RL which is doing TPA-CVG-TPA did indeed do an overnight TPA-SJU-TPA. Unloaded, reloaded and flew to CVG and back today.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP

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