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JRadier
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:41 pm

HPRamper wrote:
There are some ramp facilities where they have built-in bridges that connect from sort building directly to the plane so no dolly OR loader is needed. For instance look at the Google Earth or maps satellite view at the FedEx EWR hub building on the left (main deck) side of the gates. It's not common, but it's technically doable. As I generally say about Amazon, they are very good at determining value versus cost, and if they decide a system is worth the investment, their pockets are very, very deep.

Cool to see the system in EWR, thanks for that! For the rest I fully agree, if someone can (and will) make it work, it's Amazon.
 
autopiloton
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:31 pm

Apparently N376AN operated currently as an ATI spare is planned to become an Amazon bird after the new year. It had been talked about in the past as being switched over to Amazon but it seemed to live on in the ATI paint job doing additional work.

Also heard that ATI is planning on operating N503AZ for Amazon. Curious that it was the only tail mentioned though. Haven't heard anything about the other 3.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:18 pm

autopiloton wrote:
Apparently N376AN operated currently as an ATI spare is planned to become an Amazon bird after the new year. It had been talked about in the past as being switched over to Amazon but it seemed to live on in the ATI paint job doing additional work.


Well, all these things can change at any time, because I think that CAM generally views these aircraft as fungible. Amazon may or may not.

(They contracted for N739AX towards the beginning, and they didn't want N255CM to just take its place permanently when CAM realized that 739AX, a lease-return, needed a whole lot of work. So 255CM temporarily took its place, and after a bulkhead change and a bunch of other stuff, 739AX finished its maintenance and was leased to Amazon, and 255CM became an ATI spare. Point is: Amazon has a say in all this.)

It's all going to be about what they have to serve who they need.

So, right now, the FAA doesn't show a tail number change in the works for N376AN. Doesn't mean there won't be one.

What the FAA does show is 381AN is going to become N479AZ.

It also shows that 392AN is going to become N491AZ.

And that N395AN (back from TLV and at ILN for two weeks) will become N499AZ.

We also know that N388AA is supposed to go to Amazon.

So that's four. ATI needs to put 5 in service by the end of March.

So let's review the possibilities. And to do so, we have to talk about Aloha Cargo. For 3 years, Aloha Cargo has leased an aircraft from CAM, N399CM (which is painted in Aloha Cargo livery). ATI has been flying that plane for Aloha Cargo "temporarily" (for a little over 3 years so far) until Aloha Cargo gets ETOPS and can fly it with its own pilots. Apparently, Aloha Cargo expects finally to get the FAA approval in the first quarter of 2021. Meanwhile, Aloha Cargo started a second CONUS-HNL route, which is HNL-SEA-LAX-HNL, that it isn't flying with its own metal or pilots. Initially, Asia Pacific Airlines was flying the route for Aloha Cargo using a 757.

However, Aloha Cargo (Northern Air Cargo) is going to be leasing another 763 from CAM to handle that route. During Peak, ATI took over flying that route (HNL-SEA-LAX-HNL) from Asia Pacific Airlines, and used N381AN. However, 381AN has now returned to ILN, presumably to get ready for Amazon (needs paint, among other things), and instead N392AN is flying the route. Plainly, 392AN is going to be needed for Amazon, so it can't continue to fly this route forever. I don't know whether Aloha will now stay with a second ATI-operated 763, or go back to the Asia Pacifc 757 until their new plane arrives.

We had expected that N394AN, presently in TLV and long-overdue to return to the US given when it arrived in TLV (3/31/20), was going to be going to Aloha as N321CM. I just don't know the schedule/plans for it and for Aloha. Maybe Aloha will wait for it until it gets ETOPS and can fly the route itself, or maybe it will have ATI fly that aircraft until Aloha gets ETOPS. In the meantime, either ATI will fly the route with something (376AN, maybe?) or it will go back to Asia Pacific Airlines in this off-season.

Or, Aloha will punt the whole thing and N394AN will end up going to Amazon as the fifth frame that needs to be in service by March and Aloha will take a later conversion. Or, as you suggest, N376AN will be the 5th one. I had heard that N385AM, which was the next in line at TLV after the ones we have discussed, was going to be ready in August. That seems like a long time, given that it arrived in Early September. There's no obvious reason that that aircraft couldn't be pulled forward and completed by the end of March. Indeed, I originally had thought that it would be the fifth frame to be delivered in the First Quarter of 2021, so I was surprised when I heard "August".

The rumor about N503AZ is interesting. When ATSG said that there were going to be five frames going to Amazon by the end of March, they meant 5 CAM leases. It's always possible that Amazon instead wants them to fly N503AZ as the fifth and defer leasing one of the 5, or, it's possible that N503AZ is a sixth one. We won't know until we see it. It also could be that that is a mistake by somebody, because other rumors have the ex-Westjet Amazon-owned 767-300s as going to Cargojet.

I know it's a brain-twister, but there you have it.
Last edited by wjcandee on Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:33 pm

I agree that automated loading of planes is far from ready for Prime Time. Likely two more generations of systems. Warehouse loading systems has lower risk, bang up a trailer could be a $10K bill, banging up a 748F might be $1M or more. The trailer is more stout and more damage allowance before pulling to service.

Loading of trailers is just now getting to where it will make inroads into the industry. An example of one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL_adJQvK6s

Loading of containers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfhgUOVgQgc

Loading of small delivery vans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIvZGZIFuT0

Interlake's warehouse automation catalog
https://interlakemecalux.cdnwm.com/cata ... 1609275085

A few years out of college, 1980, the company I was at in Detroit built and installed an automated rack system for Detroit Diesel right next to DTW where they were centralizing their parts distribution. Racks over 70 feet tall, in the 3 systems over 2,000 rack frames. The coolest rack had the down aisle stacker cranes in alternate bays with picking 'tunnels' that could reach 3 pallets high with an operated cart running the tunnel along with a belt. The guy would select the parts from the pick sheet, put the parts along with the bar code paperwork in a small tub, that went down the belt. Out front the tubs were collected and the parts order boxed up for shipment. Super cool system, was going to obsolete the old style warehouse. That was 40 years ago, and the old style warehouse rack system is still in wide use.

Amazon picks up and tries repeatedly various ways to improve their efficiency. It's their network analysis, like how many minutes drive a carrier van's route should be to best locate centers. Five years ago Amazon was fighting the sales tax on web commerce, then flipped to having centers in what seems like every zip code, why? At their stage in development they could handle the sales tax better than their competitors and they were ready to minimize final delivery package travel.

Amazon may or may not automate aspects of the business, they will when there is an advantage by it.

But yes, the ramp area is a more difficult area to automate and lots of delicate expensive things to bash.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:19 am

HPRamper wrote:
There are some ramp facilities where they have built-in bridges that connect from sort building directly to the plane so no dolly OR loader is needed. For instance look at the Google Earth or maps satellite view at the FedEx EWR hub building on the left (main deck) side of the gates. It's not common, but it's technically doable. As I generally say about Amazon, they are very good at determining value versus cost, and if they decide a system is worth the investment, their pockets are very, very deep.


I believe you, but I'm not quite seeing it. I'm looking mostly at this: https://goo.gl/maps/HYfxFuoArMbhd4nk7 (I've also looked at it in "3D", and it still looks similar. Am I looking at the wrong spot or am I missing something?
 
gdavis003
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:25 am

USAirKid wrote:
HPRamper wrote:
There are some ramp facilities where they have built-in bridges that connect from sort building directly to the plane so no dolly OR loader is needed. For instance look at the Google Earth or maps satellite view at the FedEx EWR hub building on the left (main deck) side of the gates. It's not common, but it's technically doable. As I generally say about Amazon, they are very good at determining value versus cost, and if they decide a system is worth the investment, their pockets are very, very deep.


I believe you, but I'm not quite seeing it. I'm looking mostly at this: https://goo.gl/maps/HYfxFuoArMbhd4nk7 (I've also looked at it in "3D", and it still looks similar. Am I looking at the wrong spot or am I missing something?


I was missing it too at first, but I think that HPRamper is referring to these 3 gates, where the aircraft pulls up to the door that juts out from the facility and the containers go straight through the cargo door from there. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6794097 ... a=!3m1!1e3
 
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sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:28 am

Will, I thought I was bad with the SCX Fleet, but you are the master of keeping track
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:05 am

sunking737 wrote:
Will, I thought I was bad with the SCX Fleet, but you are the master of keeping track


Hah! Thank you! The Geekometer kind of pins the needle when aimed at me about this stuff.

I started keeping track of the first couple of ABX and ATI 767-200s back when it was Project Aerosmith, and I guess I have just kept up while it grew and grew.

There was a time where I could reverse-engineer what the anticipated plane routes were, like CVG-ABE-ILN-SEA-ANC-PHX-CVG or whatever, which was hard because it wasn't unusual for one plane to step in for the other at a place like PHX and until you looked at the patterns a few times, they were a tad uncertain. Initially, the flight numbers helped, i.e. 3701, 3702, etc.), but then they became a tad more-impenetrable, and then they changed back to easy, then they got hard again. Anyway, the matrix became unwieldy after like the first 20 763s, so I quit that, but I do keep track of the aircraft from acquisition through conversion and paint to first-day-on-the-job, and when they go in for maintenance (and where) and such.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:50 am

gdavis003 wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
HPRamper wrote:
There are some ramp facilities where they have built-in bridges that connect from sort building directly to the plane so no dolly OR loader is needed. For instance look at the Google Earth or maps satellite view at the FedEx EWR hub building on the left (main deck) side of the gates. It's not common, but it's technically doable. As I generally say about Amazon, they are very good at determining value versus cost, and if they decide a system is worth the investment, their pockets are very, very deep.


I believe you, but I'm not quite seeing it. I'm looking mostly at this: https://goo.gl/maps/HYfxFuoArMbhd4nk7 (I've also looked at it in "3D", and it still looks similar. Am I looking at the wrong spot or am I missing something?


I was missing it too at first, but I think that HPRamper is referring to these 3 gates, where the aircraft pulls up to the door that juts out from the facility and the containers go straight through the cargo door from there. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6794097 ... a=!3m1!1e3


Thanks. The distance between the building and the centerline seems kinda tight. I’d be interested to see a video of a plane parking at that gate.
 
autopiloton
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:09 am

I was also told that N385AM will be going to ATI to operate as Amazon. So that would make N503AZ an additional 6th and not part of the original 5.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:24 am

A HUGE thank you and kudos to wjcandee for your insights in that earlier post regarding the future 5 Amazon 763s.

Any idea how long N392AN can/will fly the HNL-SEA-LAX route for Aloha before getting resprayed and off to Amazon? She’s an unpainted bird so I’m hoping that she’ll stay that way for a little bit before heading to Amazon.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:47 am

VCVSpotter wrote:
A HUGE thank you and kudos to wjcandee for your insights in that earlier post regarding the future 5 Amazon 763s. ... Any idea how long N392AN can/will fly the HNL-SEA-LAX route for Aloha before getting resprayed and off to Amazon? She’s an unpainted bird so I’m hoping that she’ll stay that way for a little bit before heading to Amazon.


My pleasure! It's fun when my useless knowledge can be useful to someone.

As to 392AN, here's my guess: 395AN has been in ILN for about 2 weeks. Given the holidays and such, she could go to paint, if CAM wanted, within a week or so. That's two weeks, plus perhaps a little more time for conformity at the other end, figure in service by late January if they wanted. 381AN is back at ILN and could go to paint like tomorrow if they wanted, and it's already on the ATI certificate, so 2 weeks in paint and she's ready to fly. They might want to give her a once-over before executing the formal lease to Amazon, but if there's a route that needs her, she could be painted and flying it 2 weeks hence. So there are two aircraft that could, if Amazon wanted, be in-service on Amazon routes pretty ricky-tik.

So if they're planning on using 392AN for Aloha Cargo for a while, those two could go first. N388AA could be done with conversion in January if IAI were pushing it; more likely late February then 2 weeks for paint and 2 weeks for conformity and you're looking at late March. So mid-late Feb to mid-late March for in-service. It could be number 3 if that was what they planned for, but more-likely it's number 4 or 5. Which would give 392AN, if CAM wanted, a couple more months of flying for Aloha in the ex-AA scheme. Or they could run the 763 for the next couple of weeks, switch back to the Asia Pacific 757, and send 392AN to paint fairly-quickly. I'm sorry I don't have more insight to it. I do think it's a fair bet that if Aloha wants ATI to operate that 763 for them until they start flying their own, then 392AN will be there longer than shorter.

It also actually depends upon how long DHL wants to keep ATI flying N395CM (as opposed to AN) on that HKG-GUM-SYD-DRW-HKG rotation in the South Pacific. If 395CM becomes free sooner rather than later, than it could cover the Aloha Cargo stuff and replace 392AN. If DHL keeps it flying in the South Pacific, then either 376AN or 392AN would keep flying the Aloha Cargo work, if that's what Aloha wanted.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:09 am

I realize that my earlier posts on fleet developments had a lot of info -- maybe too much. Here's a shorter version of where we are with Amazon metal.

ATSG has a contract to provide 11 more aircraft from CAM to Amazon on 10-year dry-leases in calendar year 2021.

ATSG has a contract for ATI to fly the first 5 of those 11 aircraft. The other 6 haven't been publicly-stated yet to go to any particular carrier.

ATSG has said that the first 5 of the 11 will be placed in service and operating by 3/31/21.

ATI is currently flying 4 767-300s that are not currently dry-leased to Amazon. They are:
N395CM (not -AN). This is in full ATI livery, and is used on military and sometimes as a maintenance spare.
N376AN. Military/maintenance spare, converted 5/2018. ATI ran it for UPS for a while last year. ATI painted it white and applied ATI's logo.
N381AN. Converted mid-2020. ATI has been flying it as a spare and in Peak. Always was going to go to Amazon as N479AZ eventually.
N392AN. Converted Nov 2020. ATI has been flying it in Peak. Always was going to Amazon as N491AZ.

[N381AN and N392AN aren't fully-painted. They were in a post-AA grey scheme with partial flag on the tail before conversion. After conversion, IAI painted the normally-green new metalwork grey, so they could be flown temporarily without further painting and wouldn't look like Frankenplanes.]

In addition:

N395AN is just out of conversion 2 weeks ago, and is at ILN. It's going to be N499AZ for Amazon and be flown by ATI. [Currently in same paint condition as 381 and 392.]

Then, at TLV, we have:
N394AN (since 3/31/20). Going to go to Aloha as N321CM.
N388AA (since 8/20/20). Going to Amazon.
N385AM (since Sept 2020). Going to Amazon. But someone previously said that wouldn't be until August, and we need 5 by 3/31.
N393AN (since 9/25/20).
N390AA (since 10/29/20).
N399AN (since 12/18/20).

At ILN since 12/23 from ROW:
N391AA, which presumably will go to TLV soon to be converted.

From this bunch, we need 5 to be ready to be flown by ATI for Amazon by 3/31/21.

And that's what we were looking at: do we think they'll pull 376AN and send it to Amazon, leaving 385AM for later? Or will they cobble together the 5 from 381AN, 392AN, 395AN, 388AA and 385AM?

And also, how soon will they pull 392AN and send it to paint for Amazon?

Hope maybe that's clearer.
 
HPRamper
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:31 am

USAirKid wrote:
gdavis003 wrote:
USAirKid wrote:

I believe you, but I'm not quite seeing it. I'm looking mostly at this: https://goo.gl/maps/HYfxFuoArMbhd4nk7 (I've also looked at it in "3D", and it still looks similar. Am I looking at the wrong spot or am I missing something?


I was missing it too at first, but I think that HPRamper is referring to these 3 gates, where the aircraft pulls up to the door that juts out from the facility and the containers go straight through the cargo door from there. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6794097 ... a=!3m1!1e3


Thanks. The distance between the building and the centerline seems kinda tight. I’d be interested to see a video of a plane parking at that gate.

Haha, oh the things I miss when I'm not online. But you guys got it straightened out. And I agree, it seems very close, as in, a bad taxi in would be an aircraft strike. I don't know anyone at EWR though to ask about it. If I remember though, they don't use marshalers there because of the building proximity, instead they have a light system on the building itself.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:16 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
So I may have missed this, but if Amazon bought 3 of DL’s 6 76Ts, do we know what the status of the other 3 is? Just wondering if we will see a second purchase like with the WestJet birds.



And there's more... Amazon bought N1607B, N1608, N1609, and N1613B yesterday (12/29).
 
Boof02671
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:25 pm

MO11 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
So I may have missed this, but if Amazon bought 3 of DL’s 6 76Ts, do we know what the status of the other 3 is? Just wondering if we will see a second purchase like with the WestJet birds.



And there's more... Amazon bought N1607B, N1608, N1609, and N1613B yesterday (12/29).

Delta birds?
 
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sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:02 pm

I did a quick search, They are ex Delta planes..The plot thickens..
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"
Retired MSP Ramper
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:14 pm

sunking737 wrote:
I did a quick search, They are ex Delta planes..The plot thickens..


Delta was rumored to be selling the subfleet of 7 "76T"s for quite a while for freighter conversion. The only question was whether CAM or Amazon proper was going to pick them up.

These 4 bring the Amazon direct purchase total up to 7, so they seem to be all accounted for. Looks like Delta wanted these aircraft off the books before the end of the year.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:22 pm

wjcandee wrote:

It also actually depends upon how long DHL wants to keep ATI flying N395CM (as opposed to AN) on that HKG-GUM-SYD-DRW-HKG rotation in the South Pacific. If 395CM becomes free sooner rather than later, than it could cover the Aloha Cargo stuff and replace 392AN. If DHL keeps it flying in the South Pacific, then either 376AN or 392AN would keep flying the Aloha Cargo work, if that's what Aloha wanted.


Won't Aloha need exclusive use of a 767 for a week or two (outside of its scheduled flying) in order to complete ETOPS qualification?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:50 pm

MO11 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
So I may have missed this, but if Amazon bought 3 of DL’s 6 76Ts, do we know what the status of the other 3 is? Just wondering if we will see a second purchase like with the WestJet birds.


And there's more... Amazon bought N1607B, N1608, N1609, and N1613B yesterday (12/29).


There ya go. The newest 7 767-300s acquired by DL. Good catch by MO11 and jbs2886!

But here's the thing. I think it's odd that Delta would be rumoured to be selling a group of aircraft -- its newest ones -- just by their (kind of cultish) interior-letter-designation.

That is, a "76T" is just an interior configuration, a seat layout. Just because DL has a few aircraft with a particular interior configuration, that doesn't make it a subfleet for any purpose other than how they schedule them unless and until the interior is moved around.

In fact, DL took delivery of 5 767-300s the previous year, including the Andrew Young airplane, that are basically identical to these. The engines are the same. The cockpit instrumentation is the same. The maintenance has been performed the same. There's no differences training for these. They're the same airplane.

Only difference: the 5 from the previous year currently have a more-typical seat configuration.

Under normal circumstances (and I guess these aren't), you wouldn't dump your newest airframes instead of ones literally 10 years older just because of the seat layout.
Last edited by wjcandee on Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:12 pm

Spacepope wrote:
sunking737 wrote:
I did a quick search, They are ex Delta planes..The plot thickens..


Delta was rumored to be selling the subfleet of 7 "76T"s for quite a while for freighter conversion. The only question was whether CAM or Amazon proper was going to pick them up.

These 4 bring the Amazon direct purchase total up to 7, so they seem to be all accounted for. Looks like Delta wanted these aircraft off the books before the end of the year.

Delta is retiring all their 767s by 2025.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:21 pm

MO11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

It also actually depends upon how long DHL wants to keep ATI flying N395CM (as opposed to AN) on that HKG-GUM-SYD-DRW-HKG rotation in the South Pacific. If 395CM becomes free sooner rather than later, than it could cover the Aloha Cargo stuff and replace 392AN. If DHL keeps it flying in the South Pacific, then either 376AN or 392AN would keep flying the Aloha Cargo work, if that's what Aloha wanted.


Won't Aloha need exclusive use of a 767 for a week or two (outside of its scheduled flying) in order to complete ETOPS qualification?


Good observation. I guess yet another issue for the Dance of Airframes. Maybe Aloha uses 399CM (or I guess 394AN) for the certification, and ATI covers the scheduled service with another airframe? But we're back where we started. If ABX has a frame not in maintenance, they could also be asked to cover for a week. (As could any 767-300 operator, I guess.)
 
stretch8
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:36 pm

If not already addressed, looks like N742AX Astral B762 is scheduled out today, 1st routing ILN-SID at 1700EST - 30 Dec 2020.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:50 pm

stretch8 wrote:
If not already addressed, looks like N742AX Astral B762 is scheduled out today, 1st routing ILN-SID at 1700EST - 30 Dec 2020.


Great catch! They moved it out fast after Peak! Interesting that it's still sporting its N-number rather than its Kenyan registration.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:11 pm

wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
So I may have missed this, but if Amazon bought 3 of DL’s 6 76Ts, do we know what the status of the other 3 is? Just wondering if we will see a second purchase like with the WestJet birds.


And there's more... Amazon bought N1607B, N1608, N1609, and N1613B yesterday (12/29).


There ya go. The newest 7 767-300s acquired by DL. Good catch by MO11 and jbs2886!

But here's the thing. I think it's odd that Delta would be rumoured to be selling a group of aircraft -- its newest ones -- just by their (kind of cultish) interior-letter-designation.

That is, a "76T" is just an interior configuration, a seat layout. Just because DL has a few aircraft with a particular interior configuration, that doesn't make it a subfleet for any purpose other than how they schedule them unless and until the interior is moved around.

In fact, DL took delivery of 5 767-300s the previous year, including the Andrew Young airplane, that are basically identical to these. The engines are the same. The cockpit instrumentation is the same. The maintenance has been performed the same. There's no differences training for these. They're the same airplane.

Only difference: the 5 from the previous year currently have a more-typical seat configuration.

Under normal circumstances (and I guess these aren't), you wouldn't dump your newest airframes instead of ones literally 10 years older just because of the seat layout.


My guess is that since they are all on the chopping block anyway and these won't be run out to end of life, they can simplify the fleet (avoiding interior refit costs) and possibly get a premium for well maintained midlife aircraft rather than trying to flog their oldest ones first. Heck a few are up in the 130,000 hour range so Delta might as well use them till retirement time since they are only good for scrap afterwards anyway.

Looking at N1608 it seems to have had its last heavy check about 2 years ago (November 2018) so avoiding those costs might also factor into Delta's decision.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
jbs2886
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:38 pm

wjcandee wrote:
MO11 wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
So I may have missed this, but if Amazon bought 3 of DL’s 6 76Ts, do we know what the status of the other 3 is? Just wondering if we will see a second purchase like with the WestJet birds.


And there's more... Amazon bought N1607B, N1608, N1609, and N1613B yesterday (12/29).


There ya go. The newest 7 767-300s acquired by DL. Good catch by MO11 and jbs2886!

But here's the thing. I think it's odd that Delta would be rumoured to be selling a group of aircraft -- its newest ones -- just by their (kind of cultish) interior-letter-designation.

That is, a "76T" is just an interior configuration, a seat layout. Just because DL has a few aircraft with a particular interior configuration, that doesn't make it a subfleet for any purpose other than how they schedule them unless and until the interior is moved around.

In fact, DL took delivery of 5 767-300s the previous year, including the Andrew Young airplane, that are basically identical to these. The engines are the same. The cockpit instrumentation is the same. The maintenance has been performed the same. There's no differences training for these. They're the same airplane.

Only difference: the 5 from the previous year currently have a more-typical seat configuration.

Under normal circumstances (and I guess these aren't), you wouldn't dump your newest airframes instead of ones literally 10 years older just because of the seat layout.


Amazon, Delta, and 767s are basically three of my top favorite things. IIRC changing the interiors is relatively expensive and I think there were some other technical differences with those birds, but I may be wrong on both counts.
 
eightcone
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:08 pm

This could be unique acquisition opportunity, but if it showed a preference towards younger aircraft what is left in the global fleet? I think the only carriers with younger frames in sizeable numbers are JAL, ANA, and LATAM?

JAL and ANA might be old enough to buy up at the next HVM if they had cycles left. The LATAM ones are super young though; like all 8 - 12 years old? Unless Amazon could work a three way deal for the frames, BCF convert them, and Boeing give LATAM a deal on 787s?

Isn’t the next logical step going to be getting closer to a new build order?
 
gdavis003
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:18 pm

eightcone wrote:
Isn’t the next logical step going to be getting closer to a new build order?


I was thinking about the exact same thing. Only so much feedstock for conversion. Albeit, it will be a while before that feedstock runs out, but at some point, I wonder if they do consider adding new builds.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:58 pm

gdavis003 wrote:
eightcone wrote:
Isn’t the next logical step going to be getting closer to a new build order?


I was thinking about the exact same thing. Only so much feedstock for conversion. Albeit, it will be a while before that feedstock runs out, but at some point, I wonder if they do consider adding new builds.


Either they put an order in soon or they're going to have to wait for a new product. There's that A.net story that Boeing has to cease commercial production of aircraft with CF-6 engines in 2028 to meet certain emissions regulations. They either will be content with aftermarket conversions (competition here from other operators), will have to order super soon (again fighting for slots with FX), jump on the hypothetical 764F with GenEx, or switch fleet types. Growth is one thing to look at, but a number of the 762s are getting high in cycles and you'll have to backfill their retirement in the future too.
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mcg
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:38 pm

(If this is inappropriate for this thread mods may delete, but) Here's my really odd peak delivery story: On December 20 I bought a small item in ebay, it could easily fit in an 81/2 by 11 inch envelope. It arrived yesterday, having obviously been shipped and delivered in two days time by Amazon. The standard blue and white Amazon padded envelope had very typical Amazon stickers attached to it (i.e what I take to be stickers showing codes representing the warehouses and other stops along the way).

I can only assume the ebay seller had somehow outsourced fulfillment to Amazon, does anyone have any more authoritative info? I've never heard of our encountered this circumstance. Thanks in advance.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:44 pm

eightcone wrote:
This could be unique acquisition opportunity, but if it showed a preference towards younger aircraft what is left in the global fleet? I think the only carriers with younger frames in sizeable numbers are JAL, ANA, and LATAM?

JAL and ANA might be old enough to buy up at the next HVM if they had cycles left. The LATAM ones are super young though; like all 8 - 12 years old? Unless Amazon could work a three way deal for the frames, BCF convert them, and Boeing give LATAM a deal on 787s?

Isn’t the next logical step going to be getting closer to a new build order?

LATAM is in bankruptcy, they returned planes have planes sitting in storage for sale and canceled orders. They don’t need any 787s.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:45 pm

I think there should be enough feedstock to satisfy an order of any reasonable volume in any reasonable timeframe. Another 20? No sweat. Another 40? Pretty-doable. Another 60? I think you could do that without having to patch up a bunch of ragged-out crappy airframes. If environmental regulations kill the CF6, and are unreasonably-worded so you can't overhaul them, etc. (and I assume the same for the Pratts), then you might have an issue, but if they're reasonable, engine availability is only going to be an issue out at the end of the 20-year lifespan of the conversions. And if engine availability is a limiting factor, then it's going to be an issue when deciding whether to purchase new -- perhaps even more so. Why buy a 30+ year asset, at an enormous difference in capital cost, if you're only gonna be able to use it for 20 or less?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:49 pm

mcg wrote:
(If this is inappropriate for this thread mods may delete, but) Here's my really odd peak delivery story: On December 20 I bought a small item in ebay, it could easily fit in an 81/2 by 11 inch envelope. It arrived yesterday, having obviously been shipped and delivered in two days time by Amazon. The standard blue and white Amazon padded envelope had very typical Amazon stickers attached to it (i.e what I take to be stickers showing codes representing the warehouses and other stops along the way).

I can only assume the ebay seller had somehow outsourced fulfillment to Amazon, does anyone have any more authoritative info? I've never heard of our encountered this circumstance. Thanks in advance.


I have never encountered this, but certainly some Amazon Marketplace sellers that use Amazon for fulfillment also have channels on EBay. I'm not aware that Amazon won't do FBA (Fulfillment by Amazon) unless the item is purchased on their site, but there's doubtless a cost to doing it that way. Very interesting.
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:01 am

wjcandee wrote:
mcg wrote:
(If this is inappropriate for this thread mods may delete, but) Here's my really odd peak delivery story: On December 20 I bought a small item in ebay, it could easily fit in an 81/2 by 11 inch envelope. It arrived yesterday, having obviously been shipped and delivered in two days time by Amazon. The standard blue and white Amazon padded envelope had very typical Amazon stickers attached to it (i.e what I take to be stickers showing codes representing the warehouses and other stops along the way).

I can only assume the ebay seller had somehow outsourced fulfillment to Amazon, does anyone have any more authoritative info? I've never heard of our encountered this circumstance. Thanks in advance.


I have never encountered this, but certainly some Amazon Marketplace sellers that use Amazon for fulfillment also have channels on EBay. I'm not aware that Amazon won't do FBA (Fulfillment by Amazon) unless the item is purchased on their site, but there's doubtless a cost to doing it that way. Very interesting.


This is known as Multi-Chamnel Fulfillment (MCF) that allows Amazon sellers to use FBA to sell on other sites.

Note that on eBay MCF is distinct from retail arbitrage, where eBay sellers don't actually own inventory and copy and dropship Amazon listings at an inflated price. The way to tell the two apart when buying is if you get a gift receipt in your package when buying, chances are the eBay seller is engaging in retail arbitrage.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:01 am

wjcandee wrote:
mcg wrote:
(If this is inappropriate for this thread mods may delete, but) Here's my really odd peak delivery story: On December 20 I bought a small item in ebay, it could easily fit in an 81/2 by 11 inch envelope. It arrived yesterday, having obviously been shipped and delivered in two days time by Amazon. The standard blue and white Amazon padded envelope had very typical Amazon stickers attached to it (i.e what I take to be stickers showing codes representing the warehouses and other stops along the way).

I can only assume the ebay seller had somehow outsourced fulfillment to Amazon, does anyone have any more authoritative info? I've never heard of our encountered this circumstance. Thanks in advance.


I have never encountered this, but certainly some Amazon Marketplace sellers that use Amazon for fulfillment also have channels on EBay. I'm not aware that Amazon won't do FBA (Fulfillment by Amazon) unless the item is purchased on their site, but there's doubtless a cost to doing it that way. Very interesting.


I’ve encountered items that I purchased on Amazon from a marketplace seller being fulfilled by Costco.

Also, I believe Amazon FBA will ship in a plain box if the item wasn’t ordered through Amazon. Tho I’m not 100% sure where I picked that up. I do know Zappos, which is owned by Amazon, has a separate website and customer service, but is fulfilled by Amazon recently started having their orders fulfilled in Zappos branded packaging.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:07 am

1337Delta764 wrote:

This is known as Multi-Chamnel Fulfillment (MCF) that allows Amazon sellers to use FBA to sell on other sites.

Note that on eBay MCF is distinct from retail arbitrage, where eBay sellers don't actually own inventory and copy and dropship Amazon listings at an inflated price. The way to tell the two apart when buying is if you get a gift receipt in your package when buying, chances are the eBay seller is engaging in retail arbitrage.


And there you have it. Makes sense to have the best fulfillment operation do all your channels, unless there's too much of a cost to doing so.

I also thought about retail arbitrage, but this didn't seem like that.

A very-informed and excellent post! Thanks!!
 
mcg
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:41 am

Thanks everybody for the info. In effect Amazon has figured out fulfillment is a product it can sell. which is pretty logical. Thanks again.
 
CX747
Posts: 6571
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:40 am

I've been a part of the prior A.net conversations on the production of current engines after 2028. Specifically, the CF-6. The link below, which is only a few days old sheds new light on the emissions standards. It seems the current 767F has little to worry about as it and most other aircraft are meeting the required standards.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonl ... -law%3famp

I think Amazon continues to buy used pax 767s for conversion until that market is completely dried up. They are getting world beating airframes, at pennies to the dollar of new ones. They are running them efficiently, effectively and profitably. There is also the, "20 year" guarantee from IAI. As wjcandee stated, they can buy another 60 airframes with very little problem. That will give them a fleet of close to 100 767s at a fraction of the cost of buying new.

When all of the 767 feedstock is dried up, Amazon can look at what is being offered...new 767Fs, or possibly new 787Fs or maybe a 787 conversion program.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
enplaned
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:11 am

jbs2886 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
But here's the thing. I think it's odd that Delta would be rumoured to be selling a group of aircraft -- its newest ones -- just by their (kind of cultish) interior-letter-designation.

That is, a "76T" is just an interior configuration, a seat layout. Just because DL has a few aircraft with a particular interior configuration, that doesn't make it a subfleet for any purpose other than how they schedule them unless and until the interior is moved around.

In fact, DL took delivery of 5 767-300s the previous year, including the Andrew Young airplane, that are basically identical to these. The engines are the same. The cockpit instrumentation is the same. The maintenance has been performed the same. There's no differences training for these. They're the same airplane.

Only difference: the 5 from the previous year currently have a more-typical seat configuration.

Under normal circumstances (and I guess these aren't), you wouldn't dump your newest airframes instead of ones literally 10 years older just because of the seat layout.


Amazon, Delta, and 767s are basically three of my top favorite things. IIRC changing the interiors is relatively expensive and I think there were some other technical differences with those birds, but I may be wrong on both counts.


Has anyone mentioned the MX condition of these aircraft? If, by selling these aircraft, Delta gets to sidestep a bunch of heavy MX that was coming up, then that would be an attractive feature for them.
 
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Spacepope
Posts: 5176
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:34 am

enplaned wrote:
jbs2886 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
But here's the thing. I think it's odd that Delta would be rumoured to be selling a group of aircraft -- its newest ones -- just by their (kind of cultish) interior-letter-designation.

That is, a "76T" is just an interior configuration, a seat layout. Just because DL has a few aircraft with a particular interior configuration, that doesn't make it a subfleet for any purpose other than how they schedule them unless and until the interior is moved around.

In fact, DL took delivery of 5 767-300s the previous year, including the Andrew Young airplane, that are basically identical to these. The engines are the same. The cockpit instrumentation is the same. The maintenance has been performed the same. There's no differences training for these. They're the same airplane.

Only difference: the 5 from the previous year currently have a more-typical seat configuration.

Under normal circumstances (and I guess these aren't), you wouldn't dump your newest airframes instead of ones literally 10 years older just because of the seat layout.


Amazon, Delta, and 767s are basically three of my top favorite things. IIRC changing the interiors is relatively expensive and I think there were some other technical differences with those birds, but I may be wrong on both counts.


Has anyone mentioned the MX condition of these aircraft? If, by selling these aircraft, Delta gets to sidestep a bunch of heavy MX that was coming up, then that would be an attractive feature for them.

Yep. I mentioned it in reply #1875
The last of the famous international playboys
 
wjcandee
Posts: 10276
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:01 am

CX747 wrote:
I've been a part of the prior A.net conversations on the production of current engines after 2028.


Very interesting. We will see whether this all gets revised, but if it is similar to what's happening in Europe, it probably will stay.
 
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qf789
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:00 pm

Please continue discussion on Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

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