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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:46 pm
by 1337Delta764
a320flyer wrote:
SY has been flying RIC-CVG-RIC recently, looks to be a new station for Amazon.


I know Amazon ran ground routes between the Cincinnati area FCs and RIC5, perhaps they are looking to speed up delivery.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:07 pm
by frmrCapCadet
Amazon's new facility at the Port of Bremerton is next to the airport. But there is no further speculation justified. But fun to dream. LOL

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:12 pm
by wjcandee
MO11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

If Atlas can keep staffing its 767s, presumably it will keep the Amazon flying that it has, but I don't see any reason for Atlas to pick up more at the moment. [It would make a certain amount of sense that if Amazon anticipated putting any of the 12 at Atlas, they would let Atlas handle the leasing/conversion part of the transaction as well; OTOH, ATSG owns 3 ex-AA 767-300s that haven't been sent for conversion yet, and 6 767-300s currently in conversion at TLV, and has the right to buy ALL of the remaining retired AA 767-300s (which currently number 15), so if you lease from ATSG, they already have a dedicated supply of identical, well-maintained feedstock.]



Jetran bought N390AA on the 25th, and N360AA on the 26th. It sold N348AN to DHL yesterday.


Yeah, there was a difference of one or two between the number of ATSG options and the number of AA frames; if it goes beyond that, then we've got an issue. I had assumed that either it was a typo or that ATSG would end up taking them all. Guess not. I think they've become more-valuable since ATSG cut this deal. The actual deal in 2018 was that ATSG had options on 20 frames as they retired. There were slightly-more than that among the upcoming-retiring fleet. ATSG had previously purchased from Jetran a number of AA frames that were already in the desert.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:39 am
by travaz
This is totally my opinion so feel free to correct. I see ATSG (including Southern Air) having a much easier time hiring good qualified pilots due to the lay off and reduction of the big airlines. On the upside it should increase the experience of the pilot group. I do not mean to disparage any of the pilots flying for Amazon or ASTG. It seems that they have an opportunity to staff and increase thier pilot pool. There should be a good size pool of pilots that are looking for employment. The other side of the equation is will they lose them when things at the big 3 start recalling pilots. Can they offer competitive wages and benefits The pandemic has turned many things on it's ear so in my opinion this is a dynamic to watch.


Typo

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:35 am
by jreeves96
wjcandee wrote:
jreeves96 wrote:
Meh, second thoughts, shoulda kept it Amazon related. Can't delete. Just soak in my throw up of opinions.


Actually, I really am glad you posted what you did. Everything you say makes complete sense. I do think that Kalitta is hammering on DHL to send more 777s its way, but there's no reason that Atlas/Southern, if it put its mind to getting its labor situation in order, couldn't compete hard for those. I also think that it's great that Atlas has been able to get a little-more use from its 747 fleet during the pandemic, but I agree that this business likely will dramatically-reduce over the next year, if not sooner.


There's so much I wanna say about Atlas/Southern but I'll keep to myself since I mistakenly used my last name in username. But I will say Atlas Worldwide has a lot of wrinkles to iron out if they want a 767 operation for Amazon as big as Amazon wants. I couldn't care less about the pilots contract but I want a contract so I can stop listening to them moan and groan about every little thing. But I honestly think it's not gonna happen. I personally believe it's the union that's not budging when it comes to talks but that's a story for a different day.

I say Atlas/Southern will accommodate less than 20% of Amazon's fleet when it's full force to whatever number aircraft they want. Last I heard was 350.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:34 am
by autopiloton
Atlas is operating a ONT-AUS-ILN flight now. I didn’t know AUS was a new Amazon station. I must have missed that news.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:28 am
by wjcandee
And N449AZ (formerly N153DL, back from TLV 4/14/20) went into service this morning (1-ish AM on 7/2/20) with ATI, flying ILN-JFK. Three more 767-300s scheduled this year after this one.

I think that this was one that Spacepope was convinced was being bought for parts. While at IAI in TLV, they found a little bit of corrosion and some wear and delaminations, but frankly not as much as one might expect. As of 4/7/20, IAI logged her as having 21520 cycles, but 115,381 hours. LN340. Just about 30 years old (delivered to Gulf Air in November 1990).

We'll see how she does, but I'm sure she'll do fine. DL likely kept good care of her.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:50 am
by wjcandee
autopiloton wrote:
Atlas is operating a ONT-AUS-ILN flight now. I didn’t know AUS was a new Amazon station. I must have missed that news.


Yep. Easy to miss with everything going on in the world.

Amazon added SJU and AUS in May. The flight you noticed started operating on 5/28/20. (SJU is served via Sun Country with a 737-800BCF.)

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:15 am
by lavalampluva
a320flyer wrote:
SY has been flying RIC-CVG-RIC recently, looks to be a new station for Amazon.

They added PDX-AFW-RIC as well.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:13 pm
by MO11
wjcandee wrote:
And N449AZ (formerly N153DL, back from TLV 4/14/20) went into service this morning (1-ish AM on 7/2/20) with ATI, flying ILN-JFK. Three more 767-300s scheduled this year after this one.



They waste no time, the lease paperwork was signed yesterday. And ATSG West sold 737-400 N405YK to Northern Air Cargo on Tuesday.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:38 pm
by wjcandee
Thanks, MO11! Interesting about the sale of the 737-400.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:33 am
by TheProcess
jreeves96 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
jreeves96 wrote:
Meh, second thoughts, shoulda kept it Amazon related. Can't delete. Just soak in my throw up of opinions.


Actually, I really am glad you posted what you did. Everything you say makes complete sense. I do think that Kalitta is hammering on DHL to send more 777s its way, but there's no reason that Atlas/Southern, if it put its mind to getting its labor situation in order, couldn't compete hard for those. I also think that it's great that Atlas has been able to get a little-more use from its 747 fleet during the pandemic, but I agree that this business likely will dramatically-reduce over the next year, if not sooner.


There's so much I wanna say about Atlas/Southern but I'll keep to myself since I mistakenly used my last name in username. But I will say Atlas Worldwide has a lot of wrinkles to iron out if they want a 767 operation for Amazon as big as Amazon wants. I couldn't care less about the pilots contract but I want a contract so I can stop listening to them moan and groan about every little thing. But I honestly think it's not gonna happen. I personally believe it's the union that's not budging when it comes to talks but that's a story for a different day.

I say Atlas/Southern will accommodate less than 20% of Amazon's fleet when it's full force to whatever number aircraft they want. Last I heard was 350.


Yeah, I am not sure where you are getting your information from (or how you have come to such a conclusion) on Atlas/Southern CBA negotiations but you are way off in your views about what is going on. The union (the Atlas and Southern pilots) want nothing more than to get to a new and improved CBA as soon as possible. Atlas management on the other hand....well, they would rather hire 1,500TT ATP pilots to globally fly 747s rather than pay the free market price for qualified pilots.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:35 pm
by B350pilot
This may have been posted already but it appears a 767 in Amazon livery went into Lakeland, Florida today or yesterday. I wonder "why not" the larger Tampa airport ? Was this ATI or Atlas ?

Thank you

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:53 pm
by Spacepope
MO11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

If Atlas can keep staffing its 767s, presumably it will keep the Amazon flying that it has, but I don't see any reason for Atlas to pick up more at the moment. [It would make a certain amount of sense that if Amazon anticipated putting any of the 12 at Atlas, they would let Atlas handle the leasing/conversion part of the transaction as well; OTOH, ATSG owns 3 ex-AA 767-300s that haven't been sent for conversion yet, and 6 767-300s currently in conversion at TLV, and has the right to buy ALL of the remaining retired AA 767-300s (which currently number 15), so if you lease from ATSG, they already have a dedicated supply of identical, well-maintained feedstock.]



Jetran bought N390AA on the 25th, and N360AA on the 26th. It sold N348AN to DHL yesterday.


It looks like N348AN went to MEX for conversion. Isn't this where a lot of the Kalitta conversions were done?

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:15 pm
by GoodRide
LAL is beginning Amazon service very soon. It’s possible they brought one over for training.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:30 pm
by Delta28L
B350pilot wrote:
This may have been posted already but it appears a 767 in Amazon livery went into Lakeland, Florida today or yesterday. I wonder "why not" the larger Tampa airport ? Was this ATI or Atlas ?

Thank you


It was ATI that came in from AFW around 1230 yesterday. LAL is going to take over some flights from TPA since if I remember correctly Amazon wanted to expand at TPA but that didn’t happen since the airport wouldn’t let them expand or they ran out of room. Plus LAL is in between Tampa and Orlando so that helps cover a larger distance in a shorter time.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:42 pm
by wjcandee
TheProcess wrote:
jreeves96 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

Actually, I really am glad you posted what you did. Everything you say makes complete sense. I do think that Kalitta is hammering on DHL to send more 777s its way, but there's no reason that Atlas/Southern, if it put its mind to getting its labor situation in order, couldn't compete hard for those. I also think that it's great that Atlas has been able to get a little-more use from its 747 fleet during the pandemic, but I agree that this business likely will dramatically-reduce over the next year, if not sooner.


There's so much I wanna say about Atlas/Southern but I'll keep to myself since I mistakenly used my last name in username. But I will say Atlas Worldwide has a lot of wrinkles to iron out if they want a 767 operation for Amazon as big as Amazon wants. I couldn't care less about the pilots contract but I want a contract so I can stop listening to them moan and groan about every little thing. But I honestly think it's not gonna happen. I personally believe it's the union that's not budging when it comes to talks but that's a story for a different day.

I say Atlas/Southern will accommodate less than 20% of Amazon's fleet when it's full force to whatever number aircraft they want. Last I heard was 350.


Yeah, I am not sure where you are getting your information from (or how you have come to such a conclusion) on Atlas/Southern CBA negotiations but you are way off in your views about what is going on. The union (the Atlas and Southern pilots) want nothing more than to get to a new and improved CBA as soon as possible. Atlas management on the other hand....well, they would rather hire 1,500TT ATP pilots to globally fly 747s rather than pay the free market price for qualified pilots.


Absolutely. And to facilitate that, they handed over a merged seniority list, as unequivocally-required by the contracts, two years ago, right?

Both sides in that dispute are jockeying for position. Let's not treat us all like idiots and say, "It's entirely the company's fault." What's the market price right now for airline pilots again? I don't think that you want the market price. I think you want what you think you deserve. LIke we all do. And we'll see how it goes.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:02 pm
by wjcandee
B350pilot wrote:
This may have been posted already but it appears a 767 in Amazon livery went into Lakeland, Florida today or yesterday. I wonder "why not" the larger Tampa airport ? Was this ATI or Atlas ?
Thank you


Well, they actually do fly to TPA, and the thought is that much if not all of what is going through there ultimately will go through Lakeland Linder. Amazon has a 1 million square foot DC in Lakeland, so it is well familiar with its central location and traffic patterns. The land and facilities are reasonably-priced at the airport, etc. Amazon initially did show a preference for the less-expensive more-remote areas (where good solid labor was also plentiful), but found that that had tradeoffs as well. So now there's a bit of a hybrid model as they grow. Think ABE, which couldn't keep up, so a lot of business started flying through BWI. Or SCK, which looked like a great alternative to SFO, until it didn't (oops fog). So now there's SBD in that mix, too. And SFO is back. Amazon doesn't have to put all its eggs in one basked in a region, so the LAL switch may make sense.

Now that Amazon is running their own sort at ILN, as a precursor to opening their own sort (many times larger) at CVG, I wonder how the nitwits at the Clinton County Airport board feel about losing that opportunity for their stupidity and lack of vision, and how Amazon feels about ILN having experienced it firsthand. They're either acknowledging that it would have been worth a closer look, or they're thanking their lucky stars that they went to Kentucky. Having your own airport with a CATIII ILS and a 24-hour tower could be a very-cool thing, or it could be more than it's cracked up to be. In the end, we'll see how it goes.

As noted above, it was ATI.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:05 pm
by KCVGSpotter
Spacepope wrote:
MO11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

If Atlas can keep staffing its 767s, presumably it will keep the Amazon flying that it has, but I don't see any reason for Atlas to pick up more at the moment. [It would make a certain amount of sense that if Amazon anticipated putting any of the 12 at Atlas, they would let Atlas handle the leasing/conversion part of the transaction as well; OTOH, ATSG owns 3 ex-AA 767-300s that haven't been sent for conversion yet, and 6 767-300s currently in conversion at TLV, and has the right to buy ALL of the remaining retired AA 767-300s (which currently number 15), so if you lease from ATSG, they already have a dedicated supply of identical, well-maintained feedstock.]



Jetran bought N390AA on the 25th, and N360AA on the 26th. It sold N348AN to DHL yesterday.


It looks like N348AN went to MEX for conversion. Isn't this where a lot of the Kalitta conversions were done?


All three DHL conversions will be done at MEX per IAI. Bedek is also using MEX for 737NG conversion overflow.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:17 pm
by wjcandee
Spacepope wrote:
MO11 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

If Atlas can keep staffing its 767s, presumably it will keep the Amazon flying that it has, but I don't see any reason for Atlas to pick up more at the moment. [It would make a certain amount of sense that if Amazon anticipated putting any of the 12 at Atlas, they would let Atlas handle the leasing/conversion part of the transaction as well; OTOH, ATSG owns 3 ex-AA 767-300s that haven't been sent for conversion yet, and 6 767-300s currently in conversion at TLV, and has the right to buy ALL of the remaining retired AA 767-300s (which currently number 15), so if you lease from ATSG, they already have a dedicated supply of identical, well-maintained feedstock.]



Jetran bought N390AA on the 25th, and N360AA on the 26th. It sold N348AN to DHL yesterday.


It looks like N348AN went to MEX for conversion. Isn't this where a lot of the Kalitta conversions were done?


Correct, Sir! This is a DHL owned one, which probably will go to Kalitta, or maybe Amerijet.

There are 6 "CK"-suffix 763s operated by Kalitta, and 3 others owned by DHL. At least 762-765CK were converted at MEX. The other two "CK"s are BDSFs but I don't remember whether they were done at TLV or MEX.

The three other Kalitta-operated 763s are owned by DHL and are all from different conversion lines: one BCF (done at QPG), one BDSF done at TLV, and one BDSF done at MEX.

MexicanaMRO isn't constantly busy because it's the overflow line, but they appear to be doing very good work for IAI, and they get it done quickly. TLV is a pretty-consistent 6 months and recently sometimes more, whereas IAI's line at MexicanaMRO in MEX is getting them done faster.

I noticed that IAI restructured a bit earlier this year, so the Bedek name, rather than being basically the commercial side, is now really MRO stuff if anything, and the military and commercial are both just called IAI. So going forward, I guess it's just "IAI" when we're talking about conversions.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:30 pm
by wjcandee
GoodRide wrote:
LAL is beginning Amazon service very soon. It’s possible they brought one over for training.


Is there a July 4 celebration over there this weekend? I think Amazon participated in a flyover at a celebration somewhere Coastal recently, too.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:04 am
by JayinKitsap
An article on the Lakeland facility, its heading for completion soon.

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/ ... -facility#

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:09 pm
by wjcandee
N457AZ, the most-recent conversion from IAI, which had been at TPA for a couple of weeks for conformity, is now on its way to ROW, presumably for paint (5 July 2020).

This was N379AA, which was at TLV from 12/14/19 to 6/2/20. When they brought it back to the US, they sent it to the AMES facility in TPA (formerly Pemco) for conformity and such. They did the same with N308CM at about the same time. ILN has been busy, and I suspect that there is some slack at TPA due to its major customer, Frontier, cutting flights due to Covid. In the last few days, N457AZ was put on the ATI certificate under the new N-number.

Interestingly, my notes have it not going to Amazon until 9/1, with N431AZ going on 8/1. So it seems a little premature for paint, especially since N431AZ still needs paint, so one would think that that aircraft would go first.

However, the order of which aircraft goes to Amazon when does change from time-to-time, so we'll have to keep an eye on 457AZ and see when it goes into service. I'm sure the paint contractors are slow right now, so who knows what deals they are making to keep their folks employed.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:42 pm
by wjcandee
B350pilot wrote:
This may have been posted already but it appears a 767 in Amazon livery went into Lakeland, Florida today or yesterday. Thank you


FWIW, this was N367AZ. It's still there 2 days later, so I guess it was in fact for training. I thought it also might be for some kind of event, and it may still be. They should be opening soon, as others have said. IIRC, they had a 763 at AFW for a while before opening there, as well.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:51 am
by 1337Delta764
I know when it comes to Amazon delivering on holidays, the federal holidays observed on Monday as well as Veterans Day are normal delivery days for AMZL and USPS. There are no deliveries on New Years Day and Christmas Day. The remaining two federal holidays, the Fourth of July and Thanksgiving vary by region and I think gets decided by the Sortation Center in the region based on local demand.

Here in the Phoenix area while there were no regular Prime deliveries yesterday, AMZL was apparently delivering Same-Day packages yesterday. The Phoenix area has a dedicated Same-Day fulfillment center and delivery station (SAZ1/VAZ1), and I presume this was the only delivery station that was open yesterday.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:04 am
by wjcandee
1337Delta764 wrote:
I know when it comes to Amazon delivering on holidays, the federal holidays observed on Monday as well as Veterans Day are normal delivery days for AMZL and USPS. There are no deliveries on New Years Day and Christmas Day. The remaining two federal holidays, the Fourth of July and Thanksgiving vary by region and I think gets decided by the Sortation Center in the region based on local demand.

Here in the Phoenix area while there were no regular Prime deliveries yesterday, AMZL was apparently delivering Same-Day packages yesterday. The Phoenix area has a dedicated Same-Day fulfillment center and delivery station (SAZ1/VAZ1), and I presume this was the only delivery station that was open yesterday.


I believe you are correct. Oddly, the 4th was a holiday on Friday instead of Monday this year. There were no planes flying yesterday, and they're only starting to fly again tonight.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:12 am
by 1337Delta764
wjcandee wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
I know when it comes to Amazon delivering on holidays, the federal holidays observed on Monday as well as Veterans Day are normal delivery days for AMZL and USPS. There are no deliveries on New Years Day and Christmas Day. The remaining two federal holidays, the Fourth of July and Thanksgiving vary by region and I think gets decided by the Sortation Center in the region based on local demand.

Here in the Phoenix area while there were no regular Prime deliveries yesterday, AMZL was apparently delivering Same-Day packages yesterday. The Phoenix area has a dedicated Same-Day fulfillment center and delivery station (SAZ1/VAZ1), and I presume this was the only delivery station that was open yesterday.


I believe you are correct. Oddly, the 4th was a holiday on Friday instead of Monday this year. There were no planes flying yesterday, and they're only starting to fly again tonight.


Interestingly, I think I had an AMZL delivery on Thanksgiving back in 2017. However, as far as I know Amazon has not delivered in my area on Thanksgiving since 2018.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:13 am
by wjcandee
And N395AN should be heading over to TLV tomorrow. Interesting that it's planning a stop in SNN; during the height of Covid, some of the conversion candidates flew nonstop ILN-TLV.

It has been at ILN since 6/26, so a short-ish stay there before heading over.

At a typical conversion speed, this aircraft should be the first conversion delivered in 2021, the year in which Amazon will take 11. (Whether this particular frame is destined to Amazon, we don't yet know; ATSG has been kind of stockpiling the Amazon aircraft months in advance. All of the ones being delivered this year have been essentially ready and waiting months in advance; indeed, the remaining 3 for Amazon this year, to be delivered through October, are ready and only need paint.)

N395AN is a recently-retired AA airframe, not to be confused with 395CM, an ATI freighter now doing HKG-GUM-SYD-HKG for DHL.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:04 am
by justplanesmart
wjcandee wrote:
The other two "CK"s are BDSFs but I don't remember whether they were done at TLV or MEX.


N760CK and N761CK were both converted at TLV.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:05 am
by wjcandee
justplanesmart wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
The other two "CK"s are BDSFs but I don't remember whether they were done at TLV or MEX.


N760CK and N761CK were both converted at TLV.


Thank you!! I had in my head that 762CK was the first 767-300 converted by IAI at MexicanaMRO (which would necessarily mean that the preceding two were done at TLV), but I couldn't find my notes about it and I try really hard not to post stuff unless I can back it up. When I saw your post, I realized that I could pull up the articles about the then-new MEX line opening, and sure enough, IAI said they were inducting the first 767-300 there by the end of June 2017, which was when 762CK went in to be converted (26 June 2017), so it checks. I really appreciate your post!

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:10 am
by wjcandee
JayinKitsap wrote:
An article on the Lakeland facility, its heading for completion soon.

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/ ... -facility#


Thanks for posting that! Although it's a few months old, it's a very-well-done and informative piece that actually tells us most everything we need to know.

When I look at that $100 million facility, I can't help but smile thinking about how it hasn't even been five years since ATSG's LGSTX began, in September 2015, secretly operating a simple cross-dock exchange of full-pallets between just a couple of aircraft at ILN in the Project Aerosmith test. That was a relatively low-budget deal with a simple exchange of cargo-netted pallets of boxes at ILN, flying to destinations like ABE.

(What was also bewildering was how someone with the most miniscule ability to look at aircraft movements and a rudimentary knowledge of Amazon's in-house ground distribution system could figure out easily EXACTLY how the project worked, where it went, and what its purpose obviously was, but virtually zero reporters or high-paid financial "analysts" got anything right when speculating about the operation in its early days. Even their wondering why it was "named after the band" was funny. "Aero" "smith". Duh. Aero. And a smith being somebody who works or creates with something. Metalsmith, locksmith, blacksmith. Reporters and financial writers even call themselves "wordsmiths", but none of them got it. Sigh... Anyway...)

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:19 am
by JayinKitsap
wjcandee wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
An article on the Lakeland facility, its heading for completion soon.

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/ ... -facility#


Thanks for posting that! Although it's a few months old, it's a very-well-done and informative piece that actually tells us most everything we need to know.

When I look at that $100 million facility, I can't help but smile thinking about how it hasn't even been five years since ATSG's LGSTX began, in September 2015, secretly operating a simple cross-dock exchange of full-pallets between just a couple of aircraft at ILN in the Project Aerosmith test. That was a relatively low-budget deal with a simple exchange of cargo-netted pallets of boxes at ILN, flying to destinations like ABE.

(What was also bewildering was how someone with the most miniscule ability to look at aircraft movements and a rudimentary knowledge of Amazon's in-house ground distribution system could figure out easily EXACTLY how the project worked, where it went, and what its purpose obviously was, but virtually zero reporters or high-paid financial "analysts" got anything right when speculating about the operation in its early days. Even their wondering why it was "named after the band" was funny. "Aero" "smith". Duh. Aero. And a smith being somebody who works or creates with something. Metalsmith, locksmith, blacksmith. Reporters and financial writers even call themselves "wordsmiths", but none of them got it. Sigh... Anyway...)


Thanks for the compliment.

In my life I have seen nearly every newspaper, TV, or magazine, including the professional media go from having well seasoned reporters with editors that actually snooped out stories. Now, it is debatable if they are even 1 year post grad, with little acumen to find the story. Someone like Jon Ostrower might have when with FG or the WSJ, but he is now out on his own. The industry itself should have had feelers and the ear to new traffic streams.

Amazon has been a fierce competitor, look at the HQ2 bidding. Amazon got tons of research on the actual market and deals available in over 100 real estate markets. They got the point of contacts and pricing vital for the build out of their centers. Whole foods in the old world didn't make sense at the price Amazon paid, but it cemented in a huge chunk of their customers to start buying food. Prime looks crazy but it enabled sales that would not have happened if shipping needed to be paid. 2nd day and now 1 day the same.

Has any other company bought a lot of planes, then paid an airline to fly them? It's usually either wet or dry lease of the airline and selling the cargo space to a company. Amazon has the finances, their airlines couldn't get anywhere near as good leases or finance. Further, if Airline A isn't keeping up, Amazon sends the planes to Airline D, E, F or G having full control of their contractor.

Amazon has the Malls, the Department Stores, big box stores of almost every type, Walmart and Costco all shuddering and playing defense. Look back 10 years, Amazon was basically music and books back then, some other items but not EVERYTHING. Might not be the very best price or delivery, but close enough no one really checks until it is a big ticket item. I know I don't.

What is the next big leap that Amazon is planning, we see where they are doing local warehousing and delivery, but no brick and mortar store, no shipping company either. They took the store truly online. But there will be more big leaps and game changes, which will be missed by all the JV team reporters.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:07 pm
by lightsaber
This is an aviation thread on Amazon. Please take Covid19 (other than why it boosts Amazon) and all retail discussion to non-aviation.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:19 pm
by enplaned
JayinKitsap wrote:
Has any other company bought a lot of planes, then paid an airline to fly them? It's usually either wet or dry lease of the airline and selling the cargo space to a company. Amazon has the finances, their airlines couldn't get anywhere near as good leases or finance. Further, if Airline A isn't keeping up, Amazon sends the planes to Airline D, E, F or G having full control of their contractor.


Amazon hasn't bought any aircraft, to the best of my knowledge. It's entered into long-term leases. They then sublease the aircraft to an operator - though under at least some of its leases, Amazon retains responsibility for heavy MX and for engine spares.

Unfortunately, ATSG aircraft are CF6-80C2B6 engines, whereas the Atlas aircraft at CF6-80C2B6F engines. That F at the end means FADEC. That means that a single pool of spare engines cannot be used to support both pools of aircraft, unfortunately. Can't put a FADEC engine on a non-FADEC aircraft, unfortunately, even though, other than the control system, the rest of the engines are identical.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:58 pm
by mcg
lightsaber wrote:
This is an aviation thread on Amazon. Please take Covid19 (other than why it boosts Amazon) and all retail discussion to non-aviation.


ooooops......sorry.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:41 pm
by wjcandee
enplaned wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Has any other company bought a lot of planes, then paid an airline to fly them? It's usually either wet or dry lease of the airline and selling the cargo space to a company. Amazon has the finances, their airlines couldn't get anywhere near as good leases or finance. Further, if Airline A isn't keeping up, Amazon sends the planes to Airline D, E, F or G having full control of their contractor.


Amazon hasn't bought any aircraft, to the best of my knowledge. It's entered into long-term leases. They then sublease the aircraft to an operator - though under at least some of its leases, Amazon retains responsibility for heavy MX and for engine spares.

Unfortunately, ATSG aircraft are CF6-80C2B6 engines, whereas the Atlas aircraft at CF6-80C2B6F engines. That F at the end means FADEC. That means that a single pool of spare engines cannot be used to support both pools of aircraft, unfortunately. Can't put a FADEC engine on a non-FADEC aircraft, unfortunately, even though, other than the control system, the rest of the engines are identical.


It's a little different than that. Amazon doesn't sublease anything. They dry-lease the aircraft from a lessor, and they contract with an operator to operate it under a CMI agreement. Amazon bears the financial risk on the lease, because it's not terminable for convenience. They are effectively stuck with the aircraft for the length of the lease. The CMI contracts are terminable for convenience. That puts the risk of maintaining an acceptable level of operation on the operator. But the operator doesn't have to bear the enormous capital risk of acquiring an aircraft (or 30 of them) to service a customer who, at the beginning of this thing, might have decided not to be interested in running its own operation in the future.

As to FADEC and a single pool of engines, the real question is how important it is in a large fleet to have identical engines, and what are you willing to trade off to get it in terms of finding acceptable conversion candidates. At the end of the day, I think few cargo operators if any hold out to try to keep the engines identical (maybe Western Global, but it hasn't helped their reliability).

As to the Amazon fleet, it's a little-more-complicated than that "the ATSG Aircraft are non-FADEC and the Atlas ones are FADEC". Some of the ATSG-operated 767-300s are FADEC, many are not. What the ATSG aircraft are is largely from similar fleets; there are really no onesies and twosies like there are in the Atlas fleet, which may make them easier to maintain from an airframe (but not engine) perspective.

On the engines, remember that the first 12 aircraft that Amazon leased, because they were promptly-available, were 767-200BDSFs from ATSG, all of which have -80As or -80A2s. So you have different engines just starting out. The ex-AA aircraft, which comprise a big part of CAM's 767-300 fleet, are not FADEC. They are nevertheless attractive conversion candidates because they're typically single-owner and well-maintained.

One important consideration is that, in a fleet of this size, there are a lot of options to cover your spare engine needs. There are numerous financial/leasing/PBTH/etc. arrangments by myriad vendors with which you can cover the engine issue, anytime, anyplace. What ATSG has done for a very long time is to have DL doing its heavy engine maintenance, and DL is happy to work on any of the above.

Even the Atlas fleet isn't consistent engine-wise. Yes, they are all FADEC. But they're even not all C2B6Fs (1013A, 1049A, 1093A, 1181A, 1373A, 1381A, 1487A, and 1489A are B7Fs.)

And what's more, they're not even all GE: two of the 17 that Atlas currently runs for Amazon actually carry Pratt 4060s (1511A and 1619A).

So it's a very valid point that the engines on the Amazon fleet are not identical, but to me at least it seems that getting a single pool of identical engines takes a back seat to other considerations in most converted-cargo operations.

As a note that shows that you are correct that FADEC is an issue for some airlines, I will point out that when CAM went to lease some 767-300Fs to UPS, that airline did not want two of the 3 ex-ANA BCFs that CAM had bought, because they were not FADEC. UPS took the one that was FADEC, and waited for later conversions that were also FADEC.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:50 pm
by sunking737
Wow once again I learned something new.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:54 pm
by enplaned
wjcandee wrote:
enplaned wrote:

Amazon hasn't bought any aircraft, to the best of my knowledge. It's entered into long-term leases. They then sublease the aircraft to an operator - though under at least some of its leases, Amazon retains responsibility for heavy MX and for engine spares.

Unfortunately, ATSG aircraft are CF6-80C2B6 engines, whereas the Atlas aircraft at CF6-80C2B6F engines. That F at the end means FADEC. That means that a single pool of spare engines cannot be used to support both pools of aircraft, unfortunately. Can't put a FADEC engine on a non-FADEC aircraft, unfortunately, even though, other than the control system, the rest of the engines are identical.


It's a little different than that. Amazon doesn't sublease anything. They dry-lease the aircraft from a lessor, and they contract with an operator to operate it under a CMI agreement. Amazon bears the financial risk on the lease, because it's not terminable for convenience. They are effectively stuck with the aircraft for the length of the lease. The CMI contracts are terminable for convenience. That puts the risk of maintaining an acceptable level of operation on the operator. But the operator doesn't have to bear the enormous capital risk of acquiring an aircraft (or 30 of them) to service a customer who, at the beginning of this thing, might have decided not to be interested in running its own operation in the future.


There has to be a contract whereby the aircraft, head-leased by Amazon from a non-Part 121 subsidiary of ATSG or Atlas, is put onto the ATI or Atlas certificate. That's a sublease from Amazon of some kind. It may be that the sublease rate is minimal, but that's still a sublease. You have to get it on the Part 121 certificate somehow.

wjcandee wrote:

As to FADEC and a single pool of engines, the real question is how important it is in a large fleet to have identical engines, and what are you willing to trade off to get it in terms of finding acceptable conversion candidates. At the end of the day, I think few cargo operators if any hold out to try to keep the engines identical (maybe Western Global, but it hasn't helped their reliability).

As to the Amazon fleet, it's a little-more-complicated than that "the ATSG Aircraft are non-FADEC and the Atlas ones are FADEC". Some of the ATSG-operated 767-300s are FADEC, many are not.


Other than the two Atlas aircraft now operated by ATSG, which 767-300 at ATSG are FADEC?

wjcandee wrote:
What the ATSG aircraft are is largely from similar fleets; there are really no onesies and twosies like there are in the Atlas fleet, which may make them easier to maintain from an airframe (but not engine) perspective.

On the engines, remember that the first 12 aircraft that Amazon leased, because they were promptly-available, were 767-200BDSFs from ATSG, all of which have -80As or -80A2s. So you have different engines just starting out.



Right, but Amazon isn't responsible for the heavy MX on those aircraft. So Amazon doesn't care about the sparing on the 767-200 aircraft from ATSG.

wjcandee wrote:


The ex-AA aircraft, which comprise a big part of CAM's 767-300 fleet, are not FADEC. They are nevertheless attractive conversion candidates because they're typically single-owner and well-maintained.

One important consideration is that, in a fleet of this size, there are a lot of options to cover your spare engine needs. There are numerous financial/leasing/PBTH/etc. arrangments by myriad vendors with which you can cover the engine issue, anytime, anyplace. What ATSG has done for a very long time is to have DL doing its heavy engine maintenance, and DL is happy to work on any of the above.



Yes, but whatever financial arrangement Amazon finds is least expensive, it would always be cheaper to have one pool of spares rather than two. Not saying this is the only factor, not saying this is the determinative factor, just that the Amazon fleet turns out to be more complex than one might think because, although almost all the 767-300 aircraft have CF6-80C2 engines, in fact that "uniform" fleet is split between two non-interoperable variants, FADEC and non-FADEC ("PMC").

wjcandee wrote:


Even the Atlas fleet isn't consistent engine-wise. Yes, they are all FADEC. But they're even not all C2B6Fs (1013A, 1049A, 1093A, 1181A, 1373A, 1381A, 1487A, and 1489A are B7Fs.)



Are B6Fs and B7Fs interoperable? This document suggests that there's a lot of commonality between them:

http://www.iasg.co.uk/pdfs/articles/eng ... istory.pdf

The B5, B6 and B7 all have same max thrust.

If they are interoperable, then the a mixed fleet of B6F and B7F isn't an issue, if one can spare for the other.

wjcandee wrote:


And what's more, they're not even all GE: two of the 17 that Atlas currently runs for Amazon actually carry Pratt 4060s (1511A and 1619A).


That seems pretty egregious.

wjcandee wrote:


So it's a very valid point that the engines on the Amazon fleet are not identical, but to me at least it seems that getting a single pool of identical engines takes a back seat to other considerations in most converted-cargo operations.



I don't think so. Or put it this way, there's a lot of operational overhead from running fleets that can't operate off the same spares pool. Been there, done that, not going back. It's something to avoid. You might be able to write a spreadsheet that shows that it's an OK financial choice, but you'll find the operational reality is hardly ever well-enough captured by one of those spreadsheets.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:49 pm
by wjcandee
Enplaned, very-well argued. I appreciate the back and forth. Agreed it's more complex than one might think. I do continue to think, though, that if you have the opportunity to buy and convert 25 or more virtually-identical 767-300s, bought new and continually-maintained by one of the best airlines on the planet, the fact that they have a non-common engine with the rest of your fleet shouldn't stop you from doing it.

I had both N389AZ and N409AZ as "F"s, but that was an error on Planespotters.net; only N409AZ (which came from Delta) has the FADEC engine. And I could be wrong about 409AZ because DL has the SDRs both ways: with the F and without. (They also had 153DL on an SDR as having 4060s when it has GEs, although tellingly without the serial number shown; seems like the SDRs are less-definitive than one would have expected.)

Of the upcoming ATSG conversions, N544LA, currently in conversion, is FADEC, but we don't know who it's going to yet. 304CM and 308CM are FADEC, but they're going to UPS. The other 5 in conversion (besides 304CM, 544LA and 308CM) are all ex-AA, and we know all the AA 767-300s were non-FADEC.

ATSG, as you know, grew out of Airborne Express, which could get more value from a nickel than any other operator out there. They ran a very-good, very-safe, on-time operation, and spent money freely on things that affected reliability and safety (like CATIII before a lot of cargo carriers did), but were otherwise very-careful with their money. Interestingly, while they generally operate GE engines, they themselves have 3 767-300s at ABX Air that run Pratts (219CY, 220CY and 226CY). They make it work, and indeed the Pratt-powered ones are generally the ones they have tasked to run their recent CVG-EMA-JFK-CVG run across the Atlantic.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:12 am
by B350pilot
Thanks for all the great info guys.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:41 am
by Delta28L
Does anyone have a list of current routes of Amazon Prime Air?

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:20 pm
by Delta28L
Does anyone have a list of current routes of Amazon Prime Air or all the contractors (Sun County,Atlas,ATI or any others) that they use for flights?

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:27 pm
by darloscott
Delta28L wrote:
Does anyone have a list of current routes of Amazon Prime Air or all the contractors (Sun County,Atlas,ATI or any others) that they use for flights?

In Europe it is 90% operated by ASL Airlines, with DHL Air/EAT Leipzig operating two routes.
USA I'm sure someone will confirm but my understanding is operated by Atlas, ATI, Southern, Sun Country at present

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:52 pm
by MO11
N845DM signed over to Amazon yesterday (could have been Friday, government holiday).

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:15 pm
by danipawa
lovely to read here..

how is the current fleet >?

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:24 pm
by sunking737
MO11 wrote:
N845DM signed over to Amazon yesterday (could have been Friday, government holiday).


This will become N7949A Amazon plane number 10 for Sun Country. This should be the last of the 10 they agreed to fly for Amazon. I still can't confirm that SY will be getting more then the original 10. N845DM is in PAE for conformity. Arrived July 1st.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:15 pm
by wjcandee
darloscott wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
Does anyone have a list of current routes of Amazon Prime Air or all the contractors (Sun County,Atlas,ATI or any others) that they use for flights?

In Europe it is 90% operated by ASL Airlines, with DHL Air/EAT Leipzig operating two routes.
USA I'm sure someone will confirm but my understanding is operated by Atlas, ATI, Southern, Sun Country at present


Correct: 767s are operated by Atlas Air, ABX Air, and Air Transport International. The latter is the largest operator of Amazon aircraft and about to be larger.

737s are operated by Southern Air and Sun Country Airlines.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:23 am
by 1337Delta764
One long-haul ground route that Amazon still operates is from DEN3 (Thornton, CO) to AZA5 in Phoenix; I just got a package that shipped from DEN3 via ground on AMZL. I wonder if this will soon be shifted to Amazon Air (DEN-PHX). Does anyone know Amazon Air's current schedule into PHX? From what I recall they had CVG, ILN, AFW, and ATL from my most recent Amazon Air shipments.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:06 pm
by autopiloton
Any idea what ABX/CAM is doing with 363CM and 364CM? I’m assuming they could easily be moved to Amazon/ATI. Would be two pretty much ready to go planes...just need some paint. They have already been on the ATI certificate before. Maybe ATSG is going after more international DHL contracts?

wjcandee wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
MajMattMason wrote:

It’s for DHL.

ABX’s DHL “domestic 767 out of CVG scope clause” during their concession contract did not envision any other ATSG company but them doing international work for DHL I guess.

I’m curious now, what is this scope clause?


There's a lot of debate at this point about what it is. There's nothing in the text of the body of the contract itself that's germane other than a restriction on transferring ABX aircraft to another ATSG-owned carrier where they will be used to service DHL. However, there's a side letter (which I haven't seen) which apparently addresses the issue of the CVG ramp and says something to the effect that, within ATSG, only ABX will operate 767s for DHL into/out-of CVG. There's some talk about it only applying to certain aircraft, for a certain time period, etc. There are a number of provisions in the contract that I would want to redraft for clarity because they're not crystal-clear (at least to me as a lawyer), and it sounds like this is one of them. Maybe it says domestic, maybe it doesn't. Regardless, this aircraft isn't ex-ABX, and the flight didn't start or end at CVG. But I think most of us familiar with that shop read most ABX pilots as believing they have a monopoly within ATSG on 767 service for DHL, without their approval, which they have sometimes given in a pinch (e.g. when one of ATI's 757s was down, or Peak, and DHL wanted to sub in, say, 255CM)

I'm curious whether this was a price thing or an availability thing or a do-we-have-people-to-do-it thing, or some of each. ABX has some slack in the fleet right now, but they also have N363CM out of service since 3/1/20, first at GSO and now at ILN, and N364CM out of service at GSO since 5/24/20, which may have been enough to make this retention non-feasible. OTOH, ATI only has 2 767-300s that are not dry-leased by Amazon, and one of them is being used for this, so that's a lot of trust in the aircraft running reliably.

Back when DHL was the lifeblood of the company, this was probably worth fighting about. Now that DHL shows its antipathy to all of ATSG by continuing to take routes away from them and now to give them to the likes of Cargojet and Amerijet, it's a moribund business and ABX ought to be shaking the trees like Amerijet is and finding new sources of income.

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2020

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:55 am
by wjcandee
autopiloton wrote:
Any idea what ABX/CAM is doing with 363CM and 364CM? I’m assuming they could easily be moved to Amazon/ATI. Would be two pretty much ready to go planes...just need some paint. They have already been on the ATI certificate before. Maybe ATSG is going after more international DHL contracts?


With those two down, it doesn't seem like there's slack in the ABX fleet at this point, and I'm thinking that ABX stopped running something in order to do the nice DHL 2-plane European rotation that goes CVG-ORD-EMA-CGN-EMA-ORD-CVG. It takes 30-something hours to do the round trip: Depart morning of day 1, return evening of day 2. So they're using two planes. They started it with a 767-200 (N312AA, the least-traveled bird in the ABX 762 fleet), but quickly moved to using two 767-300s. So they really don't have spares at the moment, as far as I can see. How long DHL keeps that route going is of course the $50 question, which would affect ABX fleet planning.

364CM is at GSO, and should be done with maintenance any time now; it's usually 5-8 weeks for the bi-annual checkup when they send them to GSO. Depends on what ends up needing to be done. No reason to think it won't continue in service at ABX.

363CM is a bit of a mystery to me. It went to GSO on 3/1/20, spent seven weeks there, and came back to ILN on 4/22. Normally it would spend a couple of days there at most before going back into service. So either they found something at GSO that ATSG decided to work on at ILN, or there were always plans to do additional work at ILN (bulkhead change or something), which seems unlikely, or CAM is going to lease the aircraft to somebody else. Or a million other possibilities. I just don't know. I do think that if the aircraft was going to another carrier, it would have at least gone to paint by now, because it doesn't take 11 weeks to do conformity, but again...who knows?

As to ATSG going after anything, it has never impressed me that they're aggressive salespeople; more like stuff comes to them. Don't know why, because they do have a safe, very-reliable operator in ABX, with solid, experienced pilots, even if there is a disproportionate amount of labor drama for a carrier of its size.