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Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:52 pm

First Quatar folding tips are installed. Looking good
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:45 pm

https://twitter.com/deitaone/status/128 ... 35874?s=21

Emirates says 777X may miss May 2021 Debut target AND also reports they may seek a swap of some 777Xs with the 787s
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:41 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rates-says

A more detailed article. It’s obvious this is Boeing matching its operations to customer needs.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:07 pm

Well if they are getting conversions to the 787, should Boeing be reducing production of the 787 by the numbers they have proposed, someone like EK would need new a/c sooner rather than later if they are involved in a pivot to smaller frames.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:32 pm

par13del wrote:
Well if they are getting conversions to the 787, should Boeing be reducing production of the 787 by the numbers they have proposed, someone like EK would need new a/c sooner rather than later if they are involved in a pivot to smaller frames.

Nobody is going to want aircraft soon. Every single airline will be looking at pushing out deliveries for as long as they can. It all depends at how long it will take to get traffic back to normal; my suspicion is that that will take at least a year and probably more.
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:37 pm

Another point to re affirm. Boeing does say they are happy with the pace at which they’re going and they are also happy with with aircraft.

I also believe they’ll probably get it certified in 2021 but they it won’t EIS till 2022 because If the aircraft doesn’t have issues I don’t see what is stopping them from achieving certification anyway
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:06 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Boeing does say they are happy with the pace at which they’re going and they are also happy with with aircraft.


Frankly I wouldn't expect Boeing to say something else.

The pace is still slow though, I'm guessing the fleet has to perform more than 2000 flying hours and as to date only 10% is completed.

But if that's OK for Boeing, who am I to judge.
Good moaning!
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:11 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Boeing does say they are happy with the pace at which they’re going and they are also happy with with aircraft.


Frankly I wouldn't expect Boeing to say something else.

The pace is still slow though, I'm guessing the fleet has to perform more than 2000 flying hours and as to date only 10% is completed.

But if that's OK for Boeing, who am I to judge.

oh yeah, its definitely slow, its been 6 months and we are only at 250 hours really, ideally they'd probably like to go faster so they can start reaping the benefits of their investment, but then if their customers are really pressuring them to slow down and push delivery back, i guess it makes sense, that coupled with the coronavirus, MAX at a pivotal moment (all hands on deck), the jet's certification has definitely taken somewhat of a backseat.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:53 pm

I haven't watched this thread too closely, I am afraid. Is there any update about the 777-8? It must be in the danger zone right now.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
xwb777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:57 pm

SEPilot wrote:
par13del wrote:
Well if they are getting conversions to the 787, should Boeing be reducing production of the 787 by the numbers they have proposed, someone like EK would need new a/c sooner rather than later if they are involved in a pivot to smaller frames.

Nobody is going to want aircraft soon. Every single airline will be looking at pushing out deliveries for as long as they can. It all depends at how long it will take to get traffic back to normal; my suspicion is that that will take at least a year and probably more.

Emirates wants to accelerate B789 deliveries
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I haven't watched this thread too closely, I am afraid. Is there any update about the 777-8? It must be in the danger zone right now.


Nothing official, but the assumption is that development has been halted on the passenger model. We saw effectively the same thing happen with development of the 777-200LR vis-a-vis the 777-300ER back in the early 2000s. I expect Boeing is still working on development of a freighter model as they have been said to be shopping freighter customers to the 777 and 777X with the 747-8 program now effectively wound down and just finishing off the remaining UPS orders. Should that program go forward, Boeing could then re-start development of the 777-8 passenger frame is customer demand returns.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:15 am

Stitch wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I haven't watched this thread too closely, I am afraid. Is there any update about the 777-8? It must be in the danger zone right now.


Nothing official, but the assumption is that development has been halted on the passenger model. We saw effectively the same thing happen with development of the 777-200LR vis-a-vis the 777-300ER back in the early 2000s. I expect Boeing is still working on development of a freighter model as they have been said to be shopping freighter customers to the 777 and 777X with the 747-8 program now effectively wound down and just finishing off the remaining UPS orders. Should that program go forward, Boeing could then re-start development of the 777-8 passenger frame is customer demand returns.


The least cost for Boeing is to complete the 779 certification before proceeding further with the 778, it also allows for trade studies of what length, what features, etc to optimize both the 77XF and 778. If there are any changes in the 779 during certification, there would not be rework on the 778 to incorporate the same.

I wouldn't say the flight test program has been slow, 'measured' may be the better word. The early phase of cert flying where it is only the crew flying is almost always just a single plane task. Progress sped up a lot once the engineers were allowed on board. The 3rd is about to fly, and isn't there a 4th shortly? So over 3 months time the number of hours flown per month will quadruple.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:51 am

Bloomberg reports about -9 EIS slipping to 2022 from 2021.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:14 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
The least cost for Boeing is to complete the 779 certification before proceeding further with the 778, it also allows for trade studies of what length, what features, etc to optimize both the 77XF and 778. If there are any changes in the 779 during certification, there would not be rework on the 778 to incorporate the same.

I wouldn't say the flight test program has been slow, 'measured' may be the better word. The early phase of cert flying where it is only the crew flying is almost always just a single plane task. Progress sped up a lot once the engineers were allowed on board. The 3rd is about to fly, and isn't there a 4th shortly? So over 3 months time the number of hours flown per month will quadruple.



Do you think they will want to change the length of the 778? The problem surely is a weight problem for the 778. It shares the structures to allow for the MTOW of the 779 so it will be heavy, when compared to the A35K. So if you make it shorter, it has less capacity but the same weight problem. If you make it longer you eat into its payload capability. So what can Boeing change now that they haven't settled on already?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:24 pm

enzo011 wrote:
Do you think they will want to change the length of the 778? The problem surely is a weight problem for the 778. It shares the structures to allow for the MTOW of the 779 so it will be heavy, when compared to the A35K. So if you make it shorter, it has less capacity but the same weight problem. If you make it longer you eat into its payload capability. So what can Boeing change now that they haven't settled on already?


As a passenger frame, I have believed that the 777-8 was tailored specifically to the ME3's route development program where they started with a 777-200LR then grew to a (at times, weight-restricted) 777-300ER. The 777-8 was effectively a 777-300ER's capacity (at 9-abreast) with a 777-200LR's range so they could more effectively utilize the frame. I honestly don't see anyone else needing that combination of payload and range, which is why it never found interest outside of the ME3 and even they may be reconsidering it.

If Boeing only offers it as a freighter, MZFW is going to be what's important and it will be so high that OEW can't really impact it (see the 777F - it's as heavy as a 77L, but it's MZFW is such it can still almost lift the same payload weight as a 747-400). And it should still be able to comfortably handle the China-US non-stops that FedEx is using their 777Fs for now as well as cover any "normal" freighter city pair. So they can dimension it's fuselage length to whatever is best-optimized for freight.
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:05 pm

Stitch wrote:
And it should still be able to comfortably handle the China-US non-stops that FedEx is using their 777Fs for now as well as cover any "normal" freighter city pair. So they can dimension it's fuselage length to whatever is best-optimized for freight.


Why would FedEx bother about buying new 778Fs when there will be a glut of parked 77Ws available for conversion.
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:22 pm

zeke wrote:
Stitch wrote:
And it should still be able to comfortably handle the China-US non-stops that FedEx is using their 777Fs for now as well as cover any "normal" freighter city pair. So they can dimension it's fuselage length to whatever is best-optimized for freight.


Why would FedEx bother about buying new 778Fs when there will be a glut of parked 77Ws available for conversion.

For the highest utilization routes, there us a business case for FedEx to buy a more efficient plane. For most routes, the 777-300ERSF is a better option.

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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:31 pm

lightsaber wrote:
For the highest utilization routes, there us a business case for FedEx to buy a more efficient plane. For most routes, the 777-300ERSF is a better option.

Lightsaber


I cannot see the business case you say is there, FedEx carries packages, volume is the key, a 778F would provide what additional volume over the 77W ?
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:45 pm

zeke wrote:
Why would FedEx bother about buying new 778Fs when there will be a glut of parked 77Ws available for conversion.


Maybe they won't. Just noting that the 777-8F should be able to perform the mission should they wish.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:17 pm

777-9 N779XX filed BFI-PAE 11AM - 12:30PM as BOE2. Also filed PAE-BFI 1:40PM - 1:47PM as BOE2.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE2
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:02 pm

Opus99 wrote:
oh yeah, its definitely slow, its been 6 months and we are only at 250 hours really, ideally they'd probably like to go faster so they can start reaping the benefits of their investment, but then if their customers are really pressuring them to slow down and push delivery back, i guess it makes sense, that coupled with the coronavirus, MAX at a pivotal moment (all hands on deck), the jet's certification has definitely taken somewhat of a backseat.

The delay can be anywhere, but in my opinion, if Boeing wants a delay they should do it at the production level and not in certification. The certification process may or may not be extended due to the MAX issue, everyone says it would be except the FAA who have not been definite on anything. The engines were unexpected, the blow out during load testing was unexpected, slowing down certification introduces an involuntary risk when actual risk may still exist.
A number of vendors in the production chain are not in a position to work now in addition to clients who may not be inclined to take the a/c, those are things Boeing will have to deal with, slowing down the certification process beyond what Covid causes may not be a good choice.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:23 pm

par13del wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
oh yeah, its definitely slow, its been 6 months and we are only at 250 hours really, ideally they'd probably like to go faster so they can start reaping the benefits of their investment, but then if their customers are really pressuring them to slow down and push delivery back, i guess it makes sense, that coupled with the coronavirus, MAX at a pivotal moment (all hands on deck), the jet's certification has definitely taken somewhat of a backseat.

The delay can be anywhere, but in my opinion, if Boeing wants a delay they should do it at the production level and not in certification. The certification process may or may not be extended due to the MAX issue, everyone says it would be except the FAA who have not been definite on anything. The engines were unexpected, the blow out during load testing was unexpected, slowing down certification introduces an involuntary risk when actual risk may still exist.
A number of vendors in the production chain are not in a position to work now in addition to clients who may not be inclined to take the a/c, those are things Boeing will have to deal with, slowing down the certification process beyond what Covid causes may not be a good choice.


They would want to continue progressing both certification and production. You are right that delaying certification without reason adds risks they don't need to take.

Delaying production without more layoffs means payroll spending and possible penalties to suppliers at a time when they need to conserve cash, or at a minimum, make sure their cash burn is being converted into valuable inventory. Storing inventory isn't ideal, either, but arguably has fewer downsides (up to a point - obviously the MAX inventory reached problematic levels) than deliberately ceasing production.

In either case, however, they might not pull their usual levers of overtime and targeted hiring to address schedule risks for production or certification.

They also will want to minimize the risk a customer might turn out to be ready to take delivery of new aircraft, but have no aircraft to deliver and owe penalties as a result.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:10 pm

par13del wrote:
The delay can be anywhere, but in my opinion, if Boeing wants a delay they should do it at the production level and not in certification. The certification process may or may not be extended due to the MAX issue, everyone says it would be except the FAA who have not been definite on anything. The engines were unexpected, the blow out during load testing was unexpected, slowing down certification introduces an involuntary risk when actual risk may still exist.

Boeing will slow certification and production.

For a new model, launch customer contract milestones and payments are linked to both certification and production. Boeing will be doing everything possible to not force a customer into making decisions and payments, which they are unwilling or unable (or both) to make at present.

Pre-shipment finance for all new aircraft is difficult to source, and for WB impossible, so the alternative for most customers is to fund internally. Who is in a position to do that, unless Government owned? And even most Governments are distracted with more pressing economic issues than making milestone payments on grounded WB aircraft.

However delays are two-edged sword. Boeing has been working hard to get X customers onto the MAX Mk3 style contract template, with more date flexibility, but also greater / scaleable credits. Delays have to be finite, as at some point it's not worth building an aircraft.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:59 am

zeke wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
For the highest utilization routes, there us a business case for FedEx to buy a more efficient plane. For most routes, the 777-300ERSF is a better option.

Lightsaber


I cannot see the business case you say is there, FedEx carries packages, volume is the key, a 778F would provide what additional volume over the 77W ?


So interesting question. If the 747-8F is no longer offered. Then what new build freighter can match in terms of cargo and or range?

Once the 777-X finally displace the older model in the production line, Boeing would be keen to have a new 777-X freighter to keep the production line common. Would the new freighter be a -9 or -8 variant?

This may require a new thread.

bt
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:09 am

bikerthai wrote:
Then what new build freighter can match in terms of cargo and or range?


Did the 774 passenger replacement match the capacity and range ?

bikerthai wrote:
Boeing would be keen to have a new 777-X freighter to keep the production line common.


I’m sure they would, it’s really up to see if a customer is will to invest a $400+ million list price into a freighter when there will be lots of young 777s around.

They are going to struggle to even get interest in the passenger version for the next few years.
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:34 am

zeke wrote:
a $400+ million list price into a freighter when there will be lots of young 777s around.

They are going to struggle to even get interest in the passenger version for the next few years.


There will always be customers who will want new freighters. And any 777 F would have the market to itself. It's only a matter of quantities.

When deciding on whether to design a new freighter, Boeing have to look 20 years in to the future, not just the next few years. Heck it would take them the few years just to make a decision and do the design. By that time the market may change to who knows what.

Of course, they are bleeding money and so it will be a few years for them to be stable enough to outlay the development cost.

So the question remains. Would a 777-8/9F sufficiently replace a 747-400F on those polar routes? The answer may be moot if it's the only new built option available.

Note that with passenger aircraft, the trend is for smaller, more efficient aircraft for flexibility. Does this hold true for trans Pacific cargo?

bt
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:07 pm

bikerthai wrote:
There will always be customers who will want new freighters. And any 777 F would have the market to itself. It's only a matter of quantities.

When deciding on whether to design a new freighter, Boeing have to look 20 years in to the future, not just the next few years. Heck it would take them the few years just to make a decision and do the design. By that time the market may change to who knows what.

Of course, they are bleeding money and so it will be a few years for them to be stable enough to outlay the development cost.

So the question remains. Would a 777-8/9F sufficiently replace a 747-400F on those polar routes? The answer may be moot if it's the only new built option available.

Note that with passenger aircraft, the trend is for smaller, more efficient aircraft for flexibility. Does this hold true for trans Pacific cargo?

bt


Your logic failed the 748 &. A380 test
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Okcflyer
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:31 pm

bikerthai wrote:
zeke wrote:
a $400+ million list price into a freighter when there will be lots of young 777s around.

They are going to struggle to even get interest in the passenger version for the next few years.


There will always be customers who will want new freighters. And any 777 F would have the market to itself. It's only a matter of quantities.

When deciding on whether to design a new freighter, Boeing have to look 20 years in to the future, not just the next few years. Heck it would take them the few years just to make a decision and do the design. By that time the market may change to who knows what.

Of course, they are bleeding money and so it will be a few years for them to be stable enough to outlay the development cost.

So the question remains. Would a 777-8/9F sufficiently replace a 747-400F on those polar routes? The answer may be moot if it's the only new built option available.

Note that with passenger aircraft, the trend is for smaller, more efficient aircraft for flexibility. Does this hold true for trans Pacific cargo?

bt


New vs conversation is a simple economic equation. New cost has to be low enough to warrant the premium over conversation.

77W Freight conversations lift the same weight (payload) with more volume available than 74F.

New has advantages in high utilization. But those advantages have economical limits.

As has been discussed multiple times already, with the same MTOW as planned with 779, which is the same as 77F/77W, a 77X-F will have a lower cargo payload rating than 77F/773SF. This is because the base weight increased so much.

The 77X freighter doesn’t need the new sculpted frames, larger windows, both which require thicker skin, adding weight.

An ideal 77X freighter can be built using the new wing/engine design, but it’s going to require considerable investment in MTOW increases or structure lightening (stripping all the extra weight that went into 779, minus wing box), to make it competitive. The question is whether those costs make the price too high compared to much cheaper 77w conversations.

Recall the GE9X is less than 10% better on SFC than GE90. Last I heard it was 8%. That’ll require extremely high utilization’s to pay back. Very few 744F are in such use.

BTW: I think a A35K freight model will be cheaper to design/build than 77X as less changes are needed. And it’s
Payload / volume is likely to be higher. And fuel burn equal or better. If airbus were to build it, it would sink the 77X-F almost overnight.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:52 pm

smartplane wrote:
For a new model, launch customer contract milestones and payments are linked to both certification and production. Boeing will be doing everything possible to not force a customer into making decisions and payments, which they are unwilling or unable (or both) to make at present.

Pre-shipment finance for all new aircraft is difficult to source, and for WB impossible, so the alternative for most customers is to fund internally. Who is in a position to do that, unless Government owned? And even most Governments are distracted with more pressing economic issues than making milestone payments on grounded WB aircraft.

However delays are two-edged sword. Boeing has been working hard to get X customers onto the MAX Mk3 style contract template, with more date flexibility, but also greater / scaleable credits. Delays have to be finite, as at some point it's not worth building an aircraft.

Covid has created non-normal times, contracts where certification is tied to delivery will not be broken but both sides would want an amicable solution, its where the lawyers and negotiators get involved. My only point is that Covid is beyond the normal, and slowing certification to continue to have it line up with the contract wording may not be a good idea. Note that you do not mention that the a/c is already late, Boeing and all parties concerned already dealt with that initial delay.
Vendors for production are already in down sized mode, a number of them do work for both OEM's and have already laid off staff, if Boeing completes certification in 2020 that is all it would mean, that the a/c is certified and can obtain its production certificate. We all accept the original production rate has changed, so if those can be changed / modified / adjusted in conjunction with all interested parties, why is it impossible to do the same with completion of certification?
As you state with the MAX, the decision to continue MAX production after the grounding at such a high rate was an error, hopefully the magnitude of the Covid crisis is seen by the lawyers and bean counters who made the flawed MAX decision and may be contributing to the debate on the 777X.
I do wonder though what role the FAA may play in a delay, yes Boeing has to build the plane and offer it up for certification, however, the FAA is not just a body that has to sit and wait, see the MAX mandated changes as an example.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:21 pm

Okcflyer wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
zeke wrote:
a $400+ million list price into a freighter when there will be lots of young 777s around.

They are going to struggle to even get interest in the passenger version for the next few years.


There will always be customers who will want new freighters. And any 777 F would have the market to itself. It's only a matter of quantities.

When deciding on whether to design a new freighter, Boeing have to look 20 years in to the future, not just the next few years. Heck it would take them the few years just to make a decision and do the design. By that time the market may change to who knows what.

Of course, they are bleeding money and so it will be a few years for them to be stable enough to outlay the development cost.

So the question remains. Would a 777-8/9F sufficiently replace a 747-400F on those polar routes? The answer may be moot if it's the only new built option available.

Note that with passenger aircraft, the trend is for smaller, more efficient aircraft for flexibility. Does this hold true for trans Pacific cargo?

bt


New vs conversation is a simple economic equation. New cost has to be low enough to warrant the premium over conversation.

77W Freight conversations lift the same weight (payload) with more volume available than 74F.

New has advantages in high utilization. But those advantages have economical limits.

As has been discussed multiple times already, with the same MTOW as planned with 779, which is the same as 77F/77W, a 77X-F will have a lower cargo payload rating than 77F/773SF. This is because the base weight increased so much.

The 77X freighter doesn’t need the new sculpted frames, larger windows, both which require thicker skin, adding weight.

An ideal 77X freighter can be built using the new wing/engine design, but it’s going to require considerable investment in MTOW increases or structure lightening (stripping all the extra weight that went into 779, minus wing box), to make it competitive. The question is whether those costs make the price too high compared to much cheaper 77w conversations.

Recall the GE9X is less than 10% better on SFC than GE90. Last I heard it was 8%.
That’ll require extremely high utilization’s to pay back. Very few 744F are in such use.

BTW: I think a A35K freight model will be cheaper to design/build than 77X as less changes are needed. And it’s
Payload / volume is likely to be higher. And fuel burn equal or better. If airbus were to build it, it would sink the 77X-F almost overnight.

Given the published improvement figure for Specific fuel consumption improvement is 5% that sounds good to me
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:40 pm

zeke wrote:
Your logic failed the 748 &. A380 test


My logic fails because both those planes failed as a passenger carrier. Is there any doubt that if the 747-8i was a success, then the 747-8F would be too?

If the 777X also fail as a passenger carrier, then you will be right.

Okcflyer wrote:
An ideal 77X freighter can be built using the new wing/engine design, but it’s going to require considerable investment in MTOW increases or structure lightening (stripping all the extra weight that went into 779, minus wing box), to make it competitive. The question is whether those costs make the price too high compared to much cheaper 77w conversations.


So an ideal 777-XF freighter would have to be the old freighter fuselage flying at 8000ft cabin pressure and with new wings and engines. That would reduce the frame weight but will require a larger cert effort.

Regardless, there will still be a need for new built freigters. Whether it will be a 777, 787, or A350. Not sure if the 767 would be sufficient for the trans Pacific route.

So the thing to look for from Boeing is which frame, 777 or 787 will they invest in for an F variant.

Note that both the 787 and A350 variant has the fusleage weight of a 6000ft cabin pressure altitude. Will they re-design it to take advantage of the pressure altitude differences?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:40 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Is there any doubt that if the 747-8i was a success, then the 747-8F would be too?


Yes, the large dedicated cargo carriers are not the same large passenger carriers.

bikerthai wrote:
If the 777X also fail as a passenger carrier, then you will be right.


It’s already supposed to be in service.

bikerthai wrote:
Regardless, there will still be a need for new built freigters.


You keep making that statement like it is a fact. We could easily see 300 plus 77W being parked due COVID being cheap feedstock for years to come for freighter conversion.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:44 pm

Great discussion on production and testing here..... :roll:

Also some of you need to realize there are certain that push the same agenda no matter the topic, not worth the discussion with these individuals.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:00 pm

:checkeredflag: Yes the freighter discussion probably need to go somewhere else. Sorry I brought it up.

Agenda aside, when an arguement has some logic behind it, it's worth discussion.

And yes Zeke, there may be hundreds of frames out there for mod. Some carrier would still prefer new built. :checkeredflag:

bt
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SQ22
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:31 pm

Please keep this thread on topic which is Testing/Production. Thanks.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:43 pm

par13del wrote:
smartplane wrote:
However delays are two-edged sword. Boeing has been working hard to get X customers onto the MAX Mk3 style contract template, with more date flexibility, but also greater / scaleable credits. Delays have to be finite, as at some point it's not worth building an aircraft.

Note that you do not mention that the a/c is already late, Boeing and all parties concerned already dealt with that initial delay.

Thought the reference to moving customers to new, flexible contracts was clear enough. Previous X delays were handled on a case by case basis, mainly by accepting one time variation and compensation clauses. Latest MAX-style contract builds in greater flexibility and compensation, with outer limits.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:46 pm

par13del wrote:
smartplane wrote:
For a new model, launch customer contract milestones and payments are linked to both certification and production. Boeing will be doing everything possible to not force a customer into making decisions and payments, which they are unwilling or unable (or both) to make at present.

Pre-shipment finance for all new aircraft is difficult to source, and for WB impossible, so the alternative for most customers is to fund internally. Who is in a position to do that, unless Government owned? And even most Governments are distracted with more pressing economic issues than making milestone payments on grounded WB aircraft.

However delays are two-edged sword. Boeing has been working hard to get X customers onto the MAX Mk3 style contract template, with more date flexibility, but also greater / scaleable credits. Delays have to be finite, as at some point it's not worth building an aircraft.


As you state with the MAX, the decision to continue MAX production after the grounding at such a high rate was an error, hopefully the magnitude of the Covid crisis is seen by the lawyers and bean counters who made the flawed MAX decision and may be contributing to the debate on the 777X.

In hindsight it was, but I state no such thing.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:35 pm

Any news when they will do the hot weather tests? Will the cold tests be done around December?

Is the testing hours ramping up or just continuing, miss having Boeing do a flight test site for the 779.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:31 pm

BOE002/N779XX is of on an early sortie
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE2
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:51 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
BOE002/N779XX is of on an early sortie
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE2

Yes, autoland testing at MWH
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:53 pm

777-9 N779XW filed BFI-BFI 9:45AM - 10:56AM as BOE1. Earlier today, 777-9 N779XX flew BFI-BFI for autoland testing as mentioned by TropicalSky and Opus99.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE1
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n779xx
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:47 pm

What does the Boeing 777X need to be certified this year?
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:09 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
What does the Boeing 777X need to be certified this year?


It won’t be certified this year (realistically), because that would look like a rush job by Boeing/FAA, the COVID pandemic has pushed them back, they’re delayed in general, two/four flight test aircraft haven’t even flown yet, and there’s no need for a 777X in the market this instant (due to COVID). HOWEVER, if Boeing did want to have it certified this year, I’d imagine they’d shift as much man power as possible into the 77X program, and have the other two flying before the end of this month. Then have all four fly test flights every day, including weekends and holidays, and sometimes multiple flights a day. Then have a huge group of analysts/tech teams go through the data and keep testing. But that’ll never happen, as Emirates have said that they don’t expect deliveries until 2022....if anything the 777X is getting pushed back not forwards.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
WoodysAeroimag
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:53 am

VCVSpotter wrote:
777-9 N779XW filed BFI-BFI 9:45AM - 10:56AM as BOE1. Earlier today, 777-9 N779XX flew BFI-BFI for autoland testing as mentioned by TropicalSky and Opus99.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE1
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n779xx


BOE2 N779XX returning to BFI today.
ImageN779XX Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64241 / LN 1574 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr
ImageN779XX Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64241 / LN 1574 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr

BOE1 N779XW departing & returning on Sortie #1
ImageN779XW Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64240 / LN 1567 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr
ImageN779XW Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64240 / LN 1567 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr
ImageN779XW Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64240 / LN 1567 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr

BOE1 N779XW departing on Sortie #2 today.
ImageN779XW Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64240 / LN 1567 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:35 am

WoodysAeroimag wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
777-9 N779XW filed BFI-BFI 9:45AM - 10:56AM as BOE1. Earlier today, 777-9 N779XX flew BFI-BFI for autoland testing as mentioned by TropicalSky and Opus99.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE1
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n779xx


BOE2 N779XX returning to BFI today.
ImageN779XX Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64241 / LN 1574 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr
ImageN779XX Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64241 / LN 1574 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr

BOE1 N779XW departing & returning on Sortie #1
ImageN779XW Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64240 / LN 1567 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr
ImageN779XW Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64240 / LN 1567 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr
ImageN779XW Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64240 / LN 1567 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr

BOE1 N779XW departing on Sortie #2 today.
ImageN779XW Boeing 777-9 - C/N 64240 / LN 1567 by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr

Brilliant pictures!!
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:57 pm

According to KPAE Blogspot, “WH002 777-9 N779XX is scheduled for flight management function and MMR testing from Boeing Field on July 15.”

http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/07/paine- ... 4.html?m=1
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:41 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
According to KPAE Blogspot, “WH002 777-9 N779XX is scheduled for flight management function and MMR testing from Boeing Field on July 15.”

http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/07/paine- ... 4.html?m=1


777-9 N779XX filed BFI-MWH 10AM - 10:27AM as BOE2.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE2
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:44 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
According to KPAE Blogspot, “WH002 777-9 N779XX is scheduled for flight management function and MMR testing from Boeing Field on July 15.”

http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/07/paine- ... 4.html?m=1


777-9 N779XX filed BFI-MWH 10AM - 10:27AM as BOE2.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE2


777-9 N779XX filed MWH-GEG 12PM - 12:17PM as BOE2. This is the first flight of the 777-9 between MWH and GEG.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KMWH/KGEG
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:14 pm

777-9 N779XW filed BFI-BFI 9:25AM - 10:35AM as BOE1.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE1
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:38 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
VCVSpotter wrote:
According to KPAE Blogspot, “WH002 777-9 N779XX is scheduled for flight management function and MMR testing from Boeing Field on July 15.”

http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/07/paine- ... 4.html?m=1


777-9 N779XX filed BFI-MWH 10AM - 10:27AM as BOE2.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE2


777-9 N779XX filed MWH-GEG 12PM - 12:17PM as BOE2. This is the first flight of the 777-9 between MWH and GEG.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KMWH/KGEG


777-9 N779XX filed GEG-BFI 1PM - 1:41PM as BOE2.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE ... /KGEG/KBFI
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell BA/KL 744s

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