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Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:49 am

Thanks. That's better to discuss now than guessing what might be happening. Why is Boeing itself so quiet about the 777-9?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:17 pm

Noshow wrote:
Thanks. That's better to discuss now than guessing what might be happening. Why is Boeing itself so quiet about the 777-9?

I think they have been focusing on the MAX (that’s my theory at least). This is first proper interview we’ve had on the 777X since start of tests. Now it’s all eyes on the 777X now that the MAX is back
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:21 pm

Noshow wrote:
Thanks. That's better to discuss now than guessing what might be happening. Why is Boeing itself so quiet about the 777-9?


they have no need to sceam shout about anything.

Better they keep heads down and work torward certifications.

No oem makes public everything in the flights testings.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:27 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Thanks. That's better to discuss now than guessing what might be happening. Why is Boeing itself so quiet about the 777-9?


they have no need to sceam shout about anything.

Better they keep heads down and work torward certifications.

No oem makes public everything in the flights testings.

This is also true
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:59 pm

WOW this is an interesting feature..... I wonder if this is the first of it's kind in commercial use?
QUOTE FROM ARTICAL: A new feature of the GE9X is an engine-turning system, which through an electromechanical motor unit and its own dedicated controller, slowly turns the core every 60 sec. Designed to balance the thermal load in the heart of the engine, the system prevents starts with a bowed rotor, which degrades performance retention. Early in the test program the turning system generated “minor squawks,” says Chaney. “That slowed us down a little bit, but that has all been put away now.”
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:47 pm

Two things from the article that interested me were:
Engine problems delayed 1st flight, so Boeing took advantage of the time to do a lot of the ground testing which the engines were capable of doing. Brakes, steering and other problems all got ironed out before that 1st flight

Efficiency test have not been done yet, and they want those done before engines get a lot of use. So they are using 4 test planes to keep engine hours down. I don't know why that is so.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:04 pm

So unless I missed something in reading, no word on any structural changes due to the decompression test that was conducted with the "blowout"?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:18 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Two things from the article that interested me were:
Engine problems delayed 1st flight, so Boeing took advantage of the time to do a lot of the ground testing which the engines were capable of doing. Brakes, steering and other problems all got ironed out before that 1st flight

Efficiency test have not been done yet, and they want those done before engines get a lot of use. So they are using 4 test planes to keep engine hours down. I don't know why that is so.

I think it’s particularly on WH003 moreso than other frames
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:19 pm

par13del wrote:
So unless I missed something in reading, no word on any structural changes due to the decompression test that was conducted with the "blowout"?

I heard of some changes. But nothing confirmed
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:28 pm

Opus99 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Two things from the article that interested me were:
Engine problems delayed 1st flight, so Boeing took advantage of the time to do a lot of the ground testing which the engines were capable of doing. Brakes, steering and other problems all got ironed out before that 1st flight

Efficiency test have not been done yet, and they want those done before engines get a lot of use. So they are using 4 test planes to keep engine hours down. I don't know why that is so.

I think it’s particularly on WH003 moreso than other frames


I think they want to get the best possible fuel economy by using virtually brand new engines.

I am sure the airlines will want to understand the difference between the sfc of a brand new engine and that with a good number of hours and cycles. I read that with interest. What is the normal fall off in engine performance over it's life (recognising that washing/overhauls etc recover some performance but not all)?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 5:41 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I don't know why that is so.


Engine performance and efficiency degrade with use. Since the goal of NAMS is to measure propulsive efficiency and performance you would want to use as "fresh" an engine as possible.


par13del wrote:
So unless I missed something in reading, no word on any structural changes due to the decompression test that was conducted with the "blowout"?


There will assuredly be some changes, but considering how close it was to Ultimate Load, they might be comparatively minor (like the A380 wing, which I believe needed only some localized structural reinforcement in the area that failed).
 
Lukas757
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:05 pm

Stitch wrote:
There will assuredly be some changes, but considering how close it was to Ultimate Load, they might be comparatively minor (like the A380 wing, which I believe needed only some localized structural reinforcement in the area that failed).


Some said that most probably the area will be strengthened and no new test will be needed, since it failed so close to ultimate load. I totally understand that you can calculate what you need to strengthen in that area and that you don’t need to retest (the aft cargo door) after you add the fix.

But what I never completely understood is the fact that of course they had to stop the pressurisation test after the door has blown. How can they know that no other part would have failed at the load test after the door failed but still before ultimate load.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:09 pm

Lukas757 wrote:
Stitch wrote:
There will assuredly be some changes, but considering how close it was to Ultimate Load, they might be comparatively minor (like the A380 wing, which I believe needed only some localized structural reinforcement in the area that failed).


Some said that most probably the area will be strengthened and no new test will be needed, since it failed so close to ultimate load. I totally understand that you can calculate what you need to strengthen in that area and that you don’t need to retest (the aft cargo door) after you add the fix.

But what I never completely understood is the fact that of course they had to stop the pressurisation test after the door has blown. How can they know that no other part would have failed at the load test after the door failed but still before ultimate load.

They would’ve inspected and analysed the whole frame and would’ve probably answered that question from that
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:27 pm

Lukas757 wrote:
But what I never completely understood is the fact that of course they had to stop the pressurisation test after the door has blown. How can they know that no other part would have failed at the load test after the door failed but still before ultimate load.


Finite Element Analysis probably would have given then that information.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:41 pm

I think i was just glad to hear the plane was performing well, high reliability from the frame and the engines especially for an experimental aircraft, which is one of the major strengths of the original 777. of course still very very early days, but as the chief pilot says, it is very encouraging.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:54 pm

Stitch wrote:
Lukas757 wrote:
But what I never completely understood is the fact that of course they had to stop the pressurisation test after the door has blown. How can they know that no other part would have failed at the load test after the door failed but still before ultimate load.


Finite Element Analysis probably would have given then that information.


Was an ultimate load test ever actually performed?
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:02 pm

StTim wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
Efficiency test have not been done yet, and they want those done before engines get a lot of use. So they are using 4 test planes to keep engine hours down. I don't know why that is so.

I think it’s particularly on WH003 moreso than other frames


I think they want to get the best possible fuel economy by using virtually brand new engines.

I am sure the airlines will want to understand the difference between the sfc of a brand new engine and that with a good number of hours and cycles. I read that with interest. What is the normal fall off in engine performance over it's life (recognising that washing/overhauls etc recover some performance but not all)?

Seems testing is being done on a shoestring. Usual practice is to fit new engines for performance / efficiency tests, which have received VIP attention for balancing and tolerances, where the data is to be shared with key customers.

All eyes will be on harsh testing, cold, but especially sustained hot testing. The days of a quick ME PR visit over a couple of days are gone.

Performance erosion guarantees are absolutely critical to the engine OEM and customer, because they underpin the maintenance contract, and trigger when the OEM incurs a removal / replacement. A380 operators and owners, who make up the bulk of X customers are street-wise / experts. GE can expect no mercy.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:07 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
Was an ultimate load test ever actually performed?


Yes it was and the failure occurred between 148 and 149 percent.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:10 pm

smartplane wrote:
Seems testing is being done on a shoestring. Usual practice is to fit new engines for performance / efficiency tests, which have received VIP attention for balancing and tolerances, where the data is to be shared with key customers.


Well the AvWeek report pretty much proves that budget is not an issue for testing, so...

Maybe the customers are using their "streetwise" skills to demand that GE and Boeing test with engines that have at least a few cycles on them rather then "boutique" hand-assembled and custom-calibrated models that are completely unrepresentative of what will be hanging off their actual frames?
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:33 pm

Max brake energy tests for certification are done with maximum permitted run down used brakes. Realistic and with any error on the "safe" side.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:44 am

Noshow wrote:
They were "on track" from first flight weren't they?


I don't remember what the track was at that specific point in time, but I think no. They were not on track with where they expected to be in their original schedule. They had just gotten past the engine delays, and I don't think they had re-baselined their schedule yet.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:06 am

Stitch wrote:
Lukas757 wrote:
But what I never completely understood is the fact that of course they had to stop the pressurisation test after the door has blown. How can they know that no other part would have failed at the load test after the door failed but still before ultimate load.


Finite Element Analysis probably would have given then that information.


Validated by strain gauge measurements taken during the ultimate load test.

If the strain gauge measurements match the FEA predictions, that gives good confidence in the FEA predictions for the fix. If there is a difference, they would have to determine why their FEA prediction was off, or perhaps include some extra design margin to account for the resulting uncertainty.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:26 am

iamlucky13 wrote:
Noshow wrote:
They were "on track" from first flight weren't they?


I don't remember what the track was at that specific point in time, but I think no. They were not on track with where they expected to be in their original schedule. They had just gotten past the engine delays, and I don't think they had re-baselined their schedule yet.



Whatever the detailed schedule was/is, the latest announced date for EIS has been pushed to 2022. Therefore it means something has changed in the schedule.
It is as simple as that.

The term "on track" is certainly associated to that latest EIS target.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:25 pm

Interesting on the aviation network podcast, just talking about the certification process and how it has changed from the MAX. Guy Norris, says the TIA certificate to begin certification tests was given to the 787 after 500 hours, and after 750 hours it hasn't been given to the 777x yet because of the additional human factor considerations that they have to inspect and analyse (amongst other things). Boeing is expecting it within the next few weeks (tentatively, they are not 100% sure). They seem to have completed this phase of testing with the high speed stability and control testing they did last week. with the TIA they can apparently expand the envelope even further and begin certification tests. But Boeing says it's very much up to the FAA on when they get the TIA. he says its a lot more of a cooperative approach. When they do get the TIA that now starts the clock for certification which would probably take about one year. So for Boeing, they are not very hot on giving a date (they say some time in 2022) - could be early, could be mid. depending on when they get their TIA.

Apparently, this phase of testing was used to address and iron out any issues with the jet and really used to look for problems (which have been minimal). Once the TIA is issued they expect to really go full speed ahead, looks like it. If the TIA is issued this month or next, Guy says testing would probably be done end of 2021, Q1 2022, assuming all goes well. Link to podcast below:

https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/podc ... st-program
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:35 pm

https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/behi ... t-aircraft

Some exclusive interior and cockpit pics of the 777-9
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:32 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Interesting on the aviation network podcast, just talking about the certification process and how it has changed from the MAX. Guy Norris, says the TIA certificate to begin certification tests was given to the 787 after 500 hours, and after 750 hours it hasn't been given to the 777x yet because of the additional human factor considerations that they have to inspect and analyse (amongst other things). Boeing is expecting it within the next few weeks (tentatively, they are not 100% sure). They seem to have completed this phase of testing with the high speed stability and control testing they did last week. with the TIA they can apparently expand the envelope even further and begin certification tests. But Boeing says it's very much up to the FAA on when they get the TIA. he says its a lot more of a cooperative approach. When they do get the TIA that now starts the clock for certification which would probably take about one year. So for Boeing, they are not very hot on giving a date (they say some time in 2022) - could be early, could be mid. depending on when they get their TIA.

Apparently, this phase of testing was used to address and iron out any issues with the jet and really used to look for problems (which have been minimal). Once the TIA is issued they expect to really go full speed ahead, looks like it. If the TIA is issued this month or next, Guy says testing would probably be done end of 2021, Q1 2022, assuming all goes well. Link to podcast below:

https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/podc ... st-program

The TIA is a big deal as the parallel flight test frames are very limited in their contribution for record until it is issued. They may peform "risk reduction" testing, but cabin is there as ballast legally, you can go find problems, but you cannot perform test points to verify something passes. E.g., flush the lavs, but you cannot complete and for record the test in the air that all can be flushed at once without breaking something.

Yes, flight testing has odd data points...

Lightsaber
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StTim
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:42 pm

There is an awful lot of boring work involved in testing - but sometimes these "boring tests" throw up interesting results.
 
Aircellist
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:07 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The TIA is a big deal as the parallel flight test frames are very limited in their contribution for record until it is issued. They may peform "risk reduction" testing, but cabin is there as ballast legally, you can go find problems, but you cannot perform test points to verify something passes. E.g., flush the lavs, but you cannot complete and for record the test in the air that all can be flushed at once without breaking something.

Yes, flight testing has odd data points...

Lightsaber



StTim wrote:
There is an awful lot of boring work involved in testing - but sometimes these "boring tests" throw up interesting results.


Interesting conjunction :)
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:28 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
VV wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.airlineratings.com/news/emirates-chief-demands-perfect-boeing-777x-engine/

He doesn’t care about fuel performance improvement packages. He wants the engine stressed on a full load out of Dubai!


He should stop whining.
If he is not happy then he should cancel the order.


That would be childish and fickle.


The bad press both get is mostly started to manage perception and defang their positions. just some manged "news" bits.
compare to RR getting a hazing for an Air France A380 engine coming apart ... made by a US conglomerate.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:32 pm

Aircellist wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The TIA is a big deal as the parallel flight test frames are very limited in their contribution for record until it is issued. They may peform "risk reduction" testing, but cabin is there as ballast legally, you can go find problems, but you cannot perform test points to verify something passes. E.g., flush the lavs, but you cannot complete and for record the test in the air that all can be flushed at once without breaking something.

Yes, flight testing has odd data points...

Lightsaber



StTim wrote:
There is an awful lot of boring work involved in testing - but sometimes these "boring tests" throw up interesting results.


Interesting conjunction :)


Designing tests for sweeping coverage is an art.

Putting some pilots in a 737MAX and having them fly a straight course is anything but a conducive test scenario.
But it produces good PR :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:46 pm

WIederling wrote:
Aircellist wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The TIA is a big deal as the parallel flight test frames are very limited in their contribution for record until it is issued. They may peform "risk reduction" testing, but cabin is there as ballast legally, you can go find problems, but you cannot perform test points to verify something passes. E.g., flush the lavs, but you cannot complete and for record the test in the air that all can be flushed at once without breaking something.

Yes, flight testing has odd data points...

Lightsaber



StTim wrote:
There is an awful lot of boring work involved in testing - but sometimes these "boring tests" throw up interesting results.


Interesting conjunction :)


Designing tests for sweeping coverage is an art.

Putting some pilots in a 737MAX and having them fly a straight course is anything but a conducive test scenario.
But it produces good PR :-)

An art with great software to assist. I happen to be an expert on that software. :biggrin: There are some just stupidly obvious tests. e.g., maximum bank angle to open an oven or pull out or put in a coffee pot. :boggled:

To say the least, more time is spent on flutter and other interesting testing. One can go out and discover bad flutter, one cannot take credit for the data point yet. I always like engine transients in a turn or the maximum decent rate verification. The last is important as if the maximum decent rate isn't enough, it lowers maximum altitude; for the record C-17 engineers, I already know that allowed decent rate exceeds most transport aircraft. ;)

Lightsaber
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kitplane01
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:43 am

Stitch wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I don't know why that is so.


Engine performance and efficiency degrade with use. Since the goal of NAMS is to measure propulsive efficiency and performance you would want to use as "fresh" an engine as possible.



Errrrr

Wouldn't you want to use as *average* an engine as possible? Especially for flight planning purposes over long water at the limits of range.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:41 pm

Stitch wrote:
Engine performance and efficiency degrade with use. Since the goal of NAMS is to measure propulsive efficiency and performance you would want to use as "fresh" an engine as possible.

kitplane01 wrote:
Errrrr. Wouldn't you want to use as *average* an engine as possible? Especially for flight planning purposes over long water at the limits of range.


I am guessing NAMS will be used to validate against the Performance Guarantees written into the Sales Contracts so you want the absolute best performance you can get to ensure you (at least) meet those guarantees.

I also expect that an "average engine" on an "average" in-service customer frame will have significantly more flight hours than any of the engines on any of the test frames will clock across the entire certification and test program.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:25 pm

Stitch wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Engine performance and efficiency degrade with use. Since the goal of NAMS is to measure propulsive efficiency and performance you would want to use as "fresh" an engine as possible.

kitplane01 wrote:
Errrrr. Wouldn't you want to use as *average* an engine as possible? Especially for flight planning purposes over long water at the limits of range.


I am guessing NAMS will be used to validate against the Performance Guarantees written into the Sales Contracts so you want the absolute best performance you can get to ensure you (at least) meet those guarantees.

I also expect that an "average engine" on an "average" in-service customer frame will have significantly more flight hours than any of the engines on any of the test frames will clock across the entire certification and test program.

Some long distance over water operators include de-pairing clauses in their engine maintenance contracts after in service and deliveries build to a point this is possible, while others favour newer builds on longer flights until experience / confidence levels rise.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:09 pm

TropicalSky wrote:
A new feature of the GE9X is an engine-turning system, which through an electromechanical motor unit and its own dedicated controller, slowly turns the core every 60 sec.


used to be standard in rail transport for ball bearing based designs ( like jet engines ).

GTF uses a similar feature to prevent rotor bow. ( they use the starter unit though )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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qf789
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:12 pm

Please continue discussion in Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread -2021

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