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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:36 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
I'm not familiar with Leeham but in my opinion it would be naive to believe the MAX saga won't have any effect on the 777X certification.

ILNFlyer wrote:
....or any other airplane program going forward, for that matter.


Indeed. If the Joint Authorities Technical Review (JATR) recommendations are adopted for the 777X and require it have a unique Type Certificate, will we then see this for future programs like the A350neo / 787neo if they change anything other than the engines (or even if they only change the engines)? Or any of keesje's proposed new family members?
 
nycbjr
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:47 pm

How long did it take to certify the 777 originally? About a year? Even if they don't grandfather couldn't they repeat that? or are there more tests now that have to be performed?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:57 pm

nycbjr wrote:
How long did it take to certify the 777 originally? About a year?


More or less.

Rollout was 9 April, 1994 with first flight on 12 June 1994. The FAA and EASA certified the model on 19 April 1995 and the first delivery (to UA) was 15 May, 1995.


nycbjr wrote:
Even if they don't grandfather couldn't they repeat that? or are there more tests now that have to be performed?


I am going to hazard a guess that the original certification plan was to test and re-certify anything that changed or anything impacted by a change. So perhaps they could just pull out the old certification plan and run through the whole thing again if required.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:25 pm

A panel of aviation safety experts assembled by Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao has concluded that the FAA followed its own rules in approving the 737MAX as safe to fly and warned against overhauling the system the FAA uses to review new aircraft. Possible effect on the 777X certification?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:32 pm

Does anyone know if testing is still resuming today?
 
NickS
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:26 pm

I've heard rumors of possible Icicles inside the engine. If that is truly the case, I doubt they will test tomorrow unless Boeing gives the All clear.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:03 pm

Boys and girls, seems like we are back in business. Tail cone re-installed, no gauntlet today but there was a 1.5hr high power engine test. So taxi test tomorrow looks likely?

http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/01/paine- ... ry-16.html
 
PlanesAtPaine
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:34 am

Opus99 wrote:
Boys and girls, seems like we are back in business. Tail cone re-installed, no gauntlet today but there was a 1.5hr high power engine test. So taxi test tomorrow looks likely?

http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/01/paine- ... ry-16.html


She's actually running the gauntlet right now. Tests are green for tomorrow morning. I'll have pics and info up soon on my pages.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:17 am

Fingers crossed!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:18 am

PlanesAtPaine wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Boys and girls, seems like we are back in business. Tail cone re-installed, no gauntlet today but there was a 1.5hr high power engine test. So taxi test tomorrow looks likely?

http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/01/paine- ... ry-16.html


She's actually running the gauntlet right now. Tests are green for tomorrow morning. I'll have pics and info up soon on my pages.


Taxi tests on Monday I would have thought.
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
nycbjr
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:02 pm

Stitch wrote:
nycbjr wrote:
How long did it take to certify the 777 originally? About a year?


More or less.

Rollout was 9 April, 1994 with first flight on 12 June 1994. The FAA and EASA certified the model on 19 April 1995 and the first delivery (to UA) was 15 May, 1995.


nycbjr wrote:
Even if they don't grandfather couldn't they repeat that? or are there more tests now that have to be performed?


I am going to hazard a guess that the original certification plan was to test and re-certify anything that changed or anything impacted by a change. So perhaps they could just pull out the old certification plan and run through the whole thing again if required.


Thx stich! I was curious cause everyone here is so concerned about grandfathering etc that it will add a year to testing. Wasn't testing already going to be a year?
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:56 pm

I think the certication basis has already been agreed, including most of not all the means of compliance.
I would even think the Level of Involvement of the airworthiness authorities is already defined and agreed.

So they now need to follow that certification plan.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:33 pm

Any updates on gauntlet?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:26 pm

VV wrote:
I think the certication basis has already been agreed, including most of not all the means of compliance.
I would even think the Level of Involvement of the airworthiness authorities is already defined and agreed.

So they now need to follow that certification plan.


Agreed upon with whom? For the EIS the EASA certification is needed. No frame ordered for a USA airline.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:27 pm

VV wrote:
I think the certication basis has already been agreed, including most of not all the means of compliance.
I would even think the Level of Involvement of the airworthiness authorities is already defined and agreed.

So they now need to follow that certification plan.


Agreed upon with whom? For the EIS the EASA certification is needed. No frame ordered for a USA airline.
 
NickS
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:42 pm

Is the 777X still green for taxi tests today? Doesn’t look like much is going on.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:49 pm

Revelation wrote:
So Leeham/Hamilton himself is not questioning the derivative vs new type question, he is reporting "the aviation community" is, but is not citing anyone associated with Boeing or the FAA. In short it's a lot of conjecture. He points out Boeing's plans presume it will be certified as a derivative but provides no one willing to go on the record to say that this is not the way it will happen. Member BoeingGuy told us the certification basis for 777x was already established as a derivative, but of course that too is just an anonymous internet source, and the MCAS tragedy may have caused that to change. Bottom line is we have a lot of sizzle but no bacon.

We have no bacon, because unless Boeing employees have won the lottery, or wish unemployment, and poverty in old age, they are gagged.

The 'aviation community' has never been more proactive, coming in two directions:

From airworthiness authorities, who have been highlighting safety is a partnership, not just between the FAA / EASA and OEM's, but includes suppliers, financiers and insurers, and

From financiers and insurers like ISTAT members, AIA and Lloyds Aviation Committee, advising they will encourage participants to place additional focus on OEM, model and variant risk.

If MAX changes don't satisfy, then whether the name is hidden from passenger view or not, the result will be additional industry model / risk margins, meaning Boeing will have to reduce unit prices to compensate, or competitors can ask more.

The same participants want assurances all new models, from B & A, don't contain similar flaws and shortcuts discovered in the MAX. They also want airworthiness authorities to raise the bar, ensuring the latest model is at least as inherently safe as the one it replaces. Naturally, as the first new model post-MAX, the X is in full focus.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:19 pm

nycbjr wrote:
Stitch wrote:
nycbjr wrote:
How long did it take to certify the 777 originally? About a year?


More or less.

Rollout was 9 April, 1994 with first flight on 12 June 1994. The FAA and EASA certified the model on 19 April 1995 and the first delivery (to UA) was 15 May, 1995.


nycbjr wrote:
Even if they don't grandfather couldn't they repeat that? or are there more tests now that have to be performed?


I am going to hazard a guess that the original certification plan was to test and re-certify anything that changed or anything impacted by a change. So perhaps they could just pull out the old certification plan and run through the whole thing again if required.


Thx stich! I was curious cause everyone here is so concerned about grandfathering etc that it will add a year to testing. Wasn't testing already going to be a year?


Indeed thank you.

Note that the 777 has even been the most successful program for Boeing.

It was launched in October 1990 and made its first flight 3 and a half years later, ONLY!

The EIS 4 and a half years after its LAUNCH!

When Boeing launched the 7E7 Dreamliner in 2004 will become, the 787 Dreamliner in January 2005, it was (theoretically) feasible for an initial EIS 2008...

777: 4.5 years of development.
787: 7.5 years of development.
777-X: 7.5/8 years of development.
(my estimation)

Note that the 777 has been a cleen shit design compared to the 777X! :o


A Triple 7 documentary before Monday

Ep. 1 https://youtu.be/0oyWZjdXxlw

Ep. 2 https://youtu.be/5inPWgrjONc

Ep. 3 https://youtu.be/esmbJjK0M7Y

Ep. 4 https://youtu.be/9LaSR97Zhhc

Ep. 5 https://youtu.be/x4vEfZFx4hk
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:39 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
I think the certication basis has already been agreed, including most of not all the means of compliance.
I would even think the Level of Involvement of the airworthiness authorities is already defined and agreed.

So they now need to follow that certification plan.


Agreed upon with whom? For the EIS the EASA certification is needed. No frame ordered for a USA airline.


I do not understand your statement. Is that a joke?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:47 pm

NickS wrote:
Is the 777X still green for taxi tests today? Doesn’t look like much is going on.

Same here wondering what’s going on. Though it’s only 12:47pm in Seattle
 
NickS
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:04 pm

Opus99 wrote:
NickS wrote:
Is the 777X still green for taxi tests today? Doesn’t look like much is going on.

Same here wondering what’s going on. Though it’s only 12:47pm in Seattle[/quote
 
NickS
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:15 pm

NickS wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
NickS wrote:
Is the 777X still green for taxi tests today? Doesn’t look like much is going on.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:27 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Look at the dates of the certification of the A330neo by EASA September the 14th 2018, with certification from the FAA coming on the 21th of December. Any regulator can come with special questions and take it's time.


To be fair, that was likely more related to the FAA preparing to suspend most operations (which they did the following day) as part of the 2018–19 United States federal government shutdown. The same thing happened to the A220 and A350, which were approved by EASA but had to wait for the FAA's approval due to United States federal government shutdowns.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:26 am

Is it looking like WH002 will fly before mid Feb too?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
kriskarch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:17 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Is it looking like WH002 will fly before mid Feb too?


According to: http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/01/paine- ... ry-17.html

"WH002 has been moved to the factory 40-23 for primary flight control system testing."

and gauntlet test should end today. Possible taxi tests on Sunday or is it a day off?
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:44 am

If gauntlet is completed today, then first flight should really be this coming week
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:17 am

Opus99 wrote:
If gauntlet is completed today, then first flight should really be this coming week



Sorry sir, don’t mean to be rude. But is there a source? I don’t like getting my hopes up only to hear that it was premature
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:42 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
If gauntlet is completed today, then first flight should really be this coming week



Sorry sir, don’t mean to be rude. But is there a source? I don’t like getting my hopes up only to hear that it was premature

Oh this pure speculation on my part based on how previous testing programs have gone. The 787/747-8 had their first flight a week or so after the gauntlet block tests
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:51 pm

Most likely not Sunday as it will compete with the NFL playoffs in the news cycle.

Monday has a weather window. Then it will be iffy for the forseable forecast.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:16 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
I think the certication basis has already been agreed, including most of not all the means of compliance.
I would even think the Level of Involvement of the airworthiness authorities is already defined and agreed.

So they now need to follow that certification plan.


Agreed upon with whom? For the EIS the EASA certification is needed. No frame ordered for a USA airline.

Agreed with the people who have to certify an a/c produced by Boeing, which is the FAA.
If the FAA does not certify the a/c no one else in the world will, and I do not believe that EASA can certify an a/c made by a USA OEM before the USA regulator actually does so.....
No USA airlines had ordered the 777W yet the FAA still had to certify it, so what makes the 777X any different?
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:18 am

It seems gauntlet tests have not been completed.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:07 am

VV wrote:
It seems gauntlet tests have not been completed.


To be more precise, it seems it has not been completed as of 19 January 2020. I know some people here like to quote outdated comment and then use it out of context.

Perhaps the gauntlet tests will continue on Monday 20 January 2020. There is not link nor source for this.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:23 am

par13del wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
I think the certication basis has already been agreed, including most of not all the means of compliance.
I would even think the Level of Involvement of the airworthiness authorities is already defined and agreed.

So they now need to follow that certification plan.


Agreed upon with whom? For the EIS the EASA certification is needed. No frame ordered for a USA airline.

Agreed with the people who have to certify an a/c produced by Boeing, which is the FAA.
If the FAA does not certify the a/c no one else in the world will, and I do not believe that EASA can certify an a/c made by a USA OEM before the USA regulator actually does so.....
No USA airlines had ordered the 777W yet the FAA still had to certify it, so what makes the 777X any different?


I did not say that the 777X does not need the certification by the FAA. I did say, that the 777X does need the certification by EASA to do it's EIS. As there is no 777X ordered by an USA airline an FAA certification by the FAA only, does not do much in that regard. For the EIS with Lufthansa the EASA certification is needed. For an EIS with Emirates the acceptance of the UAE authorities are required. Here one can not expect an acceptance of a shortened flight campaign to find approval.
So with whom the certification base has been already agreed upon does matter. Pointing to a old agreement between Boeing and the FAA does not make sense, if it does not include the other regulators.
 
UAEflyer
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:36 am

mjoelnir wrote:
par13del wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Agreed upon with whom? For the EIS the EASA certification is needed. No frame ordered for a USA airline.

Agreed with the people who have to certify an a/c produced by Boeing, which is the FAA.
If the FAA does not certify the a/c no one else in the world will, and I do not believe that EASA can certify an a/c made by a USA OEM before the USA regulator actually does so.....
No USA airlines had ordered the 777W yet the FAA still had to certify it, so what makes the 777X any different?


I did not say that the 777X does not need the certification by the FAA. I did say, that the 777X does need the certification by EASA to do it's EIS. As there is no 777X ordered by an USA airline an FAA certification by the FAA only, does not do much in that regard. For the EIS with Lufthansa the EASA certification is needed. For an EIS with Emirates the acceptance of the UAE authorities are required. Here one can not expect an acceptance of a shortened flight campaign to find approval.
So with whom the certification base has been already agreed upon does matter. Pointing to a old agreement between Boeing and the FAA does not make sense, if it does not include the other regulators.

Emirates was involved in the early stages of designing of the aircraft, and their engineers was there for certain time.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:37 am

mjoelnir wrote:
par13del wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Agreed upon with whom? For the EIS the EASA certification is needed. No frame ordered for a USA airline.

Agreed with the people who have to certify an a/c produced by Boeing, which is the FAA.
If the FAA does not certify the a/c no one else in the world will, and I do not believe that EASA can certify an a/c made by a USA OEM before the USA regulator actually does so.....
No USA airlines had ordered the 777W yet the FAA still had to certify it, so what makes the 777X any different?


I did not say that the 777X does not need the certification by the FAA. I did say, that the 777X does need the certification by EASA to do it's EIS. As there is no 777X ordered by an USA airline an FAA certification by the FAA only, does not do much in that regard. For the EIS with Lufthansa the EASA certification is needed. For an EIS with Emirates the acceptance of the UAE authorities are required. Here one can not expect an acceptance of a shortened flight campaign to find approval.
So with whom the certification base has been already agreed upon does matter. Pointing to a old agreement between Boeing and the FAA does not make sense, if it does not include the other regulators.



I still do not understand the statement, but it is only me.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:49 am

What exactly is missing with the gauntlet test? What indicators are pointing to some delay please?
 
kriskarch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:25 am

Noshow wrote:
What exactly is missing with the gauntlet test? What indicators are pointing to some delay please?


Looks like the tests planned for Jan 18th were cancelled - don't know the reason.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:26 am

Noshow wrote:
What exactly is missing with the gauntlet test? What indicators are pointing to some delay please?

Block one has been completed and block two was started but it wasn’t completed. So the remainder of block two has to be completed. Block two simulates more extreme events that could occur during flight
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:43 am

VV wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
par13del wrote:
Agreed with the people who have to certify an a/c produced by Boeing, which is the FAA.
If the FAA does not certify the a/c no one else in the world will, and I do not believe that EASA can certify an a/c made by a USA OEM before the USA regulator actually does so.....
No USA airlines had ordered the 777W yet the FAA still had to certify it, so what makes the 777X any different?


I did not say that the 777X does not need the certification by the FAA. I did say, that the 777X does need the certification by EASA to do it's EIS. As there is no 777X ordered by an USA airline an FAA certification by the FAA only, does not do much in that regard. For the EIS with Lufthansa the EASA certification is needed. For an EIS with Emirates the acceptance of the UAE authorities are required. Here one can not expect an acceptance of a shortened flight campaign to find approval.
So with whom the certification base has been already agreed upon does matter. Pointing to a old agreement between Boeing and the FAA does not make sense, if it does not include the other regulators.



I still do not understand the statement, but it is only me.


It is very simple dear VV. With a certification by the FAA only, the 777X will see no EIS until it being ordered by an USA airline. Simple.

To see an EIS of the 777X outside the USA, it needs the certification of the relevant authorities there.

I understand that USA citizen have sometimes no idea that there is a world outside the USA. Sometimes they should thing about where all those Boeing frames go to.

In this case, with no orders from the USA, it matters what other regulators think about the 777X.
What Boeing and the FAA have agreed upon sometime before the 737MAX fiasco, when the FAA still had some authority in the world, hardly matters today.

In the 737MAx disaster the FAA showed that it is not a leading agency any longer in regards of the safety of in the USA produced frames. So other agencies are going to have a look if the 777X is safe and fulfills the rules.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:01 am

mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

I did not say that the 777X does not need the certification by the FAA. I did say, that the 777X does need the certification by EASA to do it's EIS. As there is no 777X ordered by an USA airline an FAA certification by the FAA only, does not do much in that regard. For the EIS with Lufthansa the EASA certification is needed. For an EIS with Emirates the acceptance of the UAE authorities are required. Here one can not expect an acceptance of a shortened flight campaign to find approval.
So with whom the certification base has been already agreed upon does matter. Pointing to a old agreement between Boeing and the FAA does not make sense, if it does not include the other regulators.



I still do not understand the statement, but it is only me.


It is very simple dear VV. With a certification by the FAA only, the 777X will see no EIS until it being ordered by an USA airline. Simple.

To see an EIS of the 777X outside the USA, it needs the certification of the relevant authorities there.

I understand that USA citizen have sometimes no idea that there is a world outside the USA. Sometimes they should thing about where all those Boeing frames go to.

In this case, with no orders from the USA, it matters what other regulators think about the 777X.
What Boeing and the FAA have agreed upon sometime before the 737MAX fiasco, when the FAA still had some authority in the world, hardly matters today.

In the 737MAx disaster the FAA showed that it is not a leading agency any longer in regards of the safety of in the USA produced frames. So other agencies are going to have a look if the 777X is safe and fulfills the rules.

The FAA has a history of improving safety. Are you saying UAE and Qatar authorities will not work with the FAA to ensure a safe aircraft? There were mistakes made, but overall the system is valid.

The FAA is working to repair relations with EASA. If that relationship breaks down, it goes two ways.

You are making assertions beyond current agreements. FAA certifications are still of value. For example the G500/G600 is doing well. Soon the G700 will ship.

The 777x needs to finish pre-flight testing. Any holdups there are either technical or with the FAA.

The USA has an incredibly safe air travel system. The fact that MCAS flaws were missed doesn't invalidate the system. Lessons were learned and applied. The comet taught us about low cycle fatigue. The Electra about high cycle fatigue. The DC-10 about seperation of control systems. The A320 about pilots being able to over-ride FBW. The MAX repeated that lesson.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:04 am

mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

I did not say that the 777X does not need the certification by the FAA. I did say, that the 777X does need the certification by EASA to do it's EIS. As there is no 777X ordered by an USA airline an FAA certification by the FAA only, does not do much in that regard. For the EIS with Lufthansa the EASA certification is needed. For an EIS with Emirates the acceptance of the UAE authorities are required. Here one can not expect an acceptance of a shortened flight campaign to find approval.
So with whom the certification base has been already agreed upon does matter. Pointing to a old agreement between Boeing and the FAA does not make sense, if it does not include the other regulators.



I still do not understand the statement, but it is only me.


It is very simple dear VV. With a certification by the FAA only, the 777X will see no EIS until it being ordered by an USA airline. Simple.

To see an EIS of the 777X outside the USA, it needs the certification of the relevant authorities there.

I understand that USA citizen have sometimes no idea that there is a world outside the USA. Sometimes they should thing about where all those Boeing frames go to.

In this case, with no orders from the USA, it matters what other regulators think about the 777X.
What Boeing and the FAA have agreed upon sometime before the 737MAX fiasco, when the FAA still had some authority in the world, hardly matters today.

In the 737MAx disaster the FAA showed that it is not a leading agency any longer in regards of the safety of in the USA produced frames. So other agencies are going to have a look if the 777X is safe and fulfills the rules.


Nicely said, Mjoelnir.

In addition some more background:
Until what has happened with the 737MAX there have been bilateral agreements between the aviation authorities of the respective countries. An FAA type certificate is accepted by EASA with minimal additional certification. Other countries aviation authority accept FAA or EASA type certificates as well and didn't demand their own certification. Chinese CAAC took themselves some time to certify the A350 as they didn't just accept the EASA TC. That's why it took some time for the first Chinese airline to operate the A350.
This changed further after the MAX as EASA and other CAAs started to question those agreements and requested their own involvement in certification, not just copying the FAA certification.

For an airline to operate an airplane it is obligatory that that airplane is certified by their national aviation authority.

No airline within the responsibility of the FAA has ordered a 777X. Therefore a FAA certification has no value at all for any airline that has ordered the 777X as long as their respective CAA doesn't accept the FAA TC.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:50 am

lightsaber wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:


I still do not understand the statement, but it is only me.


It is very simple dear VV. With a certification by the FAA only, the 777X will see no EIS until it being ordered by an USA airline. Simple.

To see an EIS of the 777X outside the USA, it needs the certification of the relevant authorities there.

I understand that USA citizen have sometimes no idea that there is a world outside the USA. Sometimes they should thing about where all those Boeing frames go to.

In this case, with no orders from the USA, it matters what other regulators think about the 777X.
What Boeing and the FAA have agreed upon sometime before the 737MAX fiasco, when the FAA still had some authority in the world, hardly matters today.

In the 737MAx disaster the FAA showed that it is not a leading agency any longer in regards of the safety of in the USA produced frames. So other agencies are going to have a look if the 777X is safe and fulfills the rules.

The FAA has a history of improving safety. Are you saying UAE and Qatar authorities will not work with the FAA to ensure a safe aircraft? There were mistakes made, but overall the system is valid.

The FAA is working to repair relations with EASA. If that relationship breaks down, it goes two ways.

You are making assertions beyond current agreements. FAA certifications are still of value. For example the G500/G600 is doing well. Soon the G700 will ship.

The 777x needs to finish pre-flight testing. Any holdups there are either technical or with the FAA.

The USA has an incredibly safe air travel system. The fact that MCAS flaws were missed doesn't invalidate the system. Lessons were learned and applied. The comet taught us about low cycle fatigue. The Electra about high cycle fatigue. The DC-10 about seperation of control systems. The A320 about pilots being able to over-ride FBW. The MAX repeated that lesson.

Lightsaber


The FAA had a huge historical role of improving safety. That is history.

That role went down the drain in recent years. The FAA moved over to it's role promoting and protecting the USA aviation industry. You can only be one thing of the two, a regulator keeping the industry in line or a friend of the industry, protecting it.

I regards to the safety of the 737MAX the FAA failed miserably the role as an agency to promote safety. Instead of leading when safety problems were discovered in regards to the 737MAX, it fought any reaction or grounding. In the end being forced by the USA president to react. It*s sole role seemed to be to protect Boeing. It changed it's tune realizing that no agency would let the 737MAX fly again, without the serious problems being tackled.
The 737 has become a heap of sometimes strange exemptions to safety rules and it will still be after it gets into the air again. The possibility of reducing this heap of exemptions was twice missed with a new version, the NG and than the MAX.

Who should be accepting a FAA certification today, without that agency having had a serious make over and perhaps the role of promoting and protecting the USA aviation industry removed? Safety seems to be an afterthought at the FAA of today.
Trust you have to earn through a long and slow process, but you loose it through one hasty action, by not standing up to your once high standards.

Now we have the 777-9. Boeing was promoting an abbreviated flight test campaign, I assume with the agreement of the FAA., on a frame where actually nothing has been left unchanged from the original 777.
Fuselage changed, stretched, changed frames and bigger windows. New wings. New engines. Changed MLG.

Yes I assume that the UAE and Qatar authorities will have a talk with EASA rather than accepting the certification by the FAA on its merits. I was astonished that some posters did not take it serious, when Emirates talked about not being satisfied with a abbreviated flight test campaign.
I would be astonished if the certification by the agencies outside the USA will accept the FAA certification without a deeper look. If on the other hand the FAA works in this with the other agencies together at the certification, it can look different.
But than hardly applies, what the poster VV implies. That the rules of the certification are long ago agreed upon by the FAA and Boeing and unchangeable.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:03 pm

trijetsonly wrote:
No airline within the responsibility of the FAA has ordered a 777X. Therefore a FAA certification has no value at all for any airline that has ordered the 777X as long as their respective CAA doesn't accept the FAA TC.

And we all know UAE and QR will not do certification from scratch, they simply don't have the resources, and believe it or not they too understand there is an economic element to be considered. EASA has more resources but they too will use the FAA paperwork as a starting point. Therefore FAA certification has significant value.
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:17 pm

I think it’s a bit far-fetched to say that FAA certification is irrelevant or all other authorities will discard it and start from scratch. Will it be more scrutinised? For sure but it certainly won’t be discarded for all authorities to do their own tests. It will be used side by side and where authorities differ they may ask Boeing for more information etc. I can’t imagine anyone giving certification if the FAA hasn’t. More so I think the EASA will definitely scrutinised FAA certification more but ultimately they will be aligned. An independent body judged that the FAA certification process actually isn’t bad it does need improvements and I’m sure those will be very welcome when it’s adopted with regards to the EASA and all other authorities
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
trijetsonly wrote:
No airline within the responsibility of the FAA has ordered a 777X. Therefore a FAA certification has no value at all for any airline that has ordered the 777X as long as their respective CAA doesn't accept the FAA TC.

And we all know UAE and QR will not do certification from scratch, they simply don't have the resources, and believe it or not they too understand there is an economic element to be considered. EASA has more resources but they too will use the FAA paperwork as a starting point. Therefore FAA certification has significant value.


Sure, there certainly won't be any certification process from scratch by any of the other authorities apart from the FAA.
But there will also be a higher involvement during the certification.

And to get back to the original question how this all came up:
If Boeing and the FAA make certain agreements on how to accelerate or ease the certification progress it has to be taken with a large grain of salt as it's the airlines responsible CAA that decides in the end if it's safe to be operated. And those agreements between Boeing and the FAA should therefore be known and accepted by other CAAs as well.
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WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:47 pm

Revelation wrote:
And we all know UAE and QR will not do certification from scratch, they simply don't have the resources, and believe it or not they too understand there is an economic element to be considered. EASA has more resources but they too will use the FAA paperwork as a starting point. Therefore FAA certification has significant value.


But it no longer is a thing taken on face value and complemented with the local rubber stamp.

Thus an FAA certification is still a major requirement but no longer fully sufficient.
Murphy is an optimist
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:43 pm

Any news on actual testing maybe ?
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smartplane
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:59 pm

You are all correct.

Remember EASA and JAA raised MAX airworthiness issues pre-crashes, and were persuaded / reminded of the need / importance of reaching unanimous consensus by the FAA (and Boeing?).

Post crash, we've had JATR report, which has been santisied for publication.

There have been changes at the top of the FAA, and a new direction, which I imagine most staff at the FAA have openly adopted, supported by long suppressed Boeing engineers and designers.

So the original abbreviated X certification plan is history.

If BoeingGuy and others directly involved could, they would confirm there is no longer any short cut, quick and dirty certification of the X supported by the FAA, EASA and others. Quite the contrary.

Finally, the FAA and EASA are not at loggerheads. MAX has brought the two closer together, not further apart. EASA has been very careful not to score points, or say we told you so. EASA have made staff and facilities available to the FAA to progress MAX resolution. The FAA have delegated / sub-contracted some MAX issues to EASA and JAA. So long as the new found co-operation continues, it delays the need to consider a one stop, global certification authority.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:32 pm

So can this be like the production threads, discussion of the actual flight testing and status.

This endless page after page of "Certification has totally changed. The FAA isn't accepted anymore in any other country. Grandfathering is dead, really dead and the 777 will need to be certified from scratch" all based on rumor and innuendo instead of any posted news. Please start a new thread covering the debates on whose fantasy aviation agency scored the most last weekend threads.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:05 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
So can this be like the production threads, discussion of the actual flight testing and status.

This endless page after page of "Certification has totally changed. The FAA isn't accepted anymore in any other country. Grandfathering is dead, really dead and the 777 will need to be certified from scratch" all based on rumor and innuendo instead of any posted news. Please start a new thread covering the debates on whose fantasy aviation agency scored the most last weekend threads.

1) I've looked at the usual sources on Twitter and elsewhere and this thread is up to date as far as any actual 777x news being reported.

2) Any change in the regulatory strategy would impact testing and production, yet I agree we have no actual news of such changes, just a lot of innuendo that by definition doesn't belong in this thread.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
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