flipdewaf
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Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:15 pm

Opus99 wrote:
morrisond wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:

Poduction costs, market Size and dynamics, more defined and clarified and potentially improved performance data.

I think we will start to see a few more orders when the performance of the 779X begins to become more defined through the testing.

Fred


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Hi Fred - Have you heard anything through the grapevine that it is better than spec?

You would have to think Boeing threw more resources at it once they started to figure out how capable and efficient the A351 was.

The Empty weight they ended up at is really going to be interesting (and where they could have made it lighter than we are guessing if they used lighter materials, 3D printed parts, and just better more iterative design using faster computers). You would also have to assume at launch they were using 787 Wing aero efficiency in their models which I hope they would have improved with basically another decade of design time.

Any rumours on where the engine is? Is at Spec or above or below?

It’s the OEW figures that I’m waiting for really, to see if they were able to shed off any weight


I’m interested in the weight too.

@morrisond, I’m no longer in the industry, (fmcg R&D technical project management is my game now) so I no longer have the connections I once did.

With regard to the resources that would be thrown at it, I would imagine there will be attempts to change a lot of things but there would be a well defined change program. I would anticipate a lot of noise from above for which the senior guys on the program will have to act as ‘shit umbrellas’ (sorry for the language but that’s how we describe the job of protecting the front line do-ers from the politics of business) using the project charter as a defence to scope change. This is the point in the project where a lot of people will come out of the woodwork saying “well of course you should have done....” but the key is to stick to the agreed program and deliverables. I wouldn’t expect resources to ramp up significantly because of the A350 numbers, 2 people doing the job that was previously done by one means less gets done than the one person.

Fred


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RRUltrafan
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:27 am

WIederling wrote:
RRUltrafan wrote:
I wouldn't expect the fuel figures to be impressively low or anything though... It packs a higher fuel capacity than the 77W, but with a 100km drop in range from 13,649km down to 13,500km. Although I bet that the per seat fuel burn should be significantly lower


MTOW has the same ceiling ~353t

OEW is higher 20(+?)t
nominal payload is higher. 2..3t ?
That is quite a bit of "less fuel" available.

150t fuel ( incl reserves ) vs 130t on the 779 ?
17..19% less block fuel?

Back in time ferpe came up with 1+% better fuel burn per seat for the 779X
That was before the A35k got wing twist and sharklet size tuned.


Isn't max. range defined with max. fuel capacity with most payload available after filled tanks? Because a 300 seat A350 at nearly or max. payload, as demonstrated with SIA, doesn't have the 15,000km range of a 253 seat under max. payload A350.
"Everything has an end, but, only the sausage has two" - Albert Einstein
 
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:31 am

RRUltrafan wrote:
Isn't max. range defined with max. fuel capacity with most payload available after filled tanks?


I would think "Max Range" would be full tanks and no payload.

Design Range / Brochure Range is generally defined as all seats filled and customer baggage only using favorable mission rules.
 
majano
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:04 am

With the excitement of first flight behind us, keeping track of subsequent sorties is going to be sporadic. If there's someone out there who could track the flight hours, he/she would keep the discussion going and largely on topic.
 
Aviator34ID
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:34 am

majano wrote:
With the excitement of first flight behind us, keeping track of subsequent sorties is going to be sporadic. If there's someone out there who could track the flight hours, he/she would keep the discussion going and largely on topic.


Great idea!
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:44 am

RRUltrafan wrote:
Isn't max. range defined with max. fuel capacity with most payload available after filled tanks?


max range numbers given tend to be full cabin + bags _NO_ further payload ( i.e. no freight.)
usually 50+-10% of structural payload. ( except for freighters there it is max payload )
available fuel volume is not relevant ( beyond it not being maxed out already )

Various details for gaming that value:
miminal pax weight, seat map, reserves, ..
taking different metrics to compare can be problematic.

Comparing Boeing vs Boeing ....
Murphy is an optimist
 
PepeTheFrog
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:01 pm

VV wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
VV wrote:
If there is no major event, in my opinion the aircraft should get certified in early 2021. It means the delay of the EIS is not as extensive as the first flight delay.


Unless the certification process gets changed a bit after the MAX fiasco with the FAA.

And Emirates requested an extended certification campaign that will last longer than the usual test phase.


What are you talking about "certification process" change?

Emirates can ask whatever they ask.


I'm referring to the following articles:

777X certification
Certification process for 777X is another hurdle for Boeing

Your Q1 estimate might be slightly optimistic.
 
VV
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:25 pm

PepeTheFrog wrote:
VV wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:

Unless the certification process gets changed a bit after the MAX fiasco with the FAA.

And Emirates requested an extended certification campaign that will last longer than the usual test phase.


What are you talking about "certification process" change?

Emirates can ask whatever they ask.


I'm referring to the following articles:

777X certification
Certification process for 777X is another hurdle for Boeing

Your Q1 estimate might be slightly optimistic.


Has anyone here actually seen 777-9's certication plan?

Or have all the discussions based on hearsay?
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:30 pm

VV wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
VV wrote:

What are you talking about "certification process" change?

Emirates can ask whatever they ask.


I'm referring to the following articles:

777X certification
Certification process for 777X is another hurdle for Boeing

Your Q1 estimate might be slightly optimistic.


Has anyone here actually seen 777-9's certication plan?

Or have all the discussions based on hearsay?


We know what Boeing originally said. We have heard the new CEO state there will be challenges. We have seen the coments by Sir Tim but of course we haven't seen the current detailed plan. We have no idea what contingency time they have built in. That will be highly confidential and subject to almost daily changes.

That said I do not see Boeings original 12 month plan prevailing.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:58 pm

"Proving" ( what STC/Emirates wants) and certification (FAA, EASA, ... ) are two things!
Murphy is an optimist
 
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RRUltrafan
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:30 pm

WIederling wrote:
RRUltrafan wrote:
Isn't max. range defined with max. fuel capacity with most payload available after filled tanks?


max range numbers given tend to be full cabin + bags _NO_ further payload ( i.e. no freight.)
usually 50+-10% of structural payload. ( except for freighters there it is max payload )
available fuel volume is not relevant ( beyond it not being maxed out already )

Various details for gaming that value:
miminal pax weight, seat map, reserves, ..
taking different metrics to compare can be problematic.

Comparing Boeing vs Boeing ....


Then why the massive fuel capacity if it's not going to be employed anyway? The 777-9x will max out at MTOW long before all tanks can be filled if the cabin/cargo hold is full, and if there is anything to say about re-engineing and redesigned wings, range greatly increases (take the A330neo for example, the -900 went up in range by around 1,700 km even before unleashing the 251 MTOW without as significant changes to the wing or fuselage as the 777x). It wouldn't exactly need it considering its supposed to fulfil the similar missions as the 77W, which aren't ULH flights. The 777-8x would benefit because of its mission requirements, but couldn't weight be saved on the -9x by simply reducing the fuel tank size?
"Everything has an end, but, only the sausage has two" - Albert Einstein
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:44 pm

RRUltrafan wrote:
It wouldn't exactly need it considering its supposed to fulfil the similar missions as the 77W, which aren't ULH flights. The 777-8x would benefit because of its mission requirements, but couldn't weight be saved on the -9x by simply reducing the fuel tank size?


There are no "tanks" that could be made smaller :-)

Remember the tank size increase on the A350? That was not much more than changing level cut offs when filling.

"Tank" is the wing volume available between main spars on the sides and wing skins ( top/bottom).
( some exclusions around engines, ... )

Add the center wing box.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:46 pm

RRUltrafan wrote:
It wouldn't exactly need it considering its supposed to fulfil the similar missions as the 77W, which aren't ULH flights. The 777-8x would benefit because of its mission requirements, but couldn't weight be saved on the -9x by simply reducing the fuel tank size?


:wink2: They already reduced the tank size by implementing the folding wing tip.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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qf789
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:04 pm

The next test flight is due to take off in the next hour

https://twitter.com/b777xLovers/status/ ... 21888?s=20
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nikeherc
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:55 pm

bikerthai wrote:
RRUltrafan wrote:
It wouldn't exactly need it considering its supposed to fulfil the similar missions as the 77W, which aren't ULH flights. The 777-8x would benefit because of its mission requirements, but couldn't weight be saved on the -9x by simply reducing the fuel tank size?


:wink2: They already reduced the tank size by implementing the folding wing tip.

bt


Actually, according to the Boeing ACAP site, the 777-300ER has a usable fuel capacity of 47,890 gal and the 777-9 has a useable fuel capacity of 52,300 gallons.

Also, it is an entirely different wing than the earlier models, and the folding wing tips make it fit in the same width space as a 300ER, so we can't reach any quick conclusion as to their relative effect on fuel capacity. Also, the extra capacity is necessary to give the -8 the range it needs.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:08 pm

qf789 wrote:
The next test flight is due to take off in the next hour

https://twitter.com/b777xLovers/status/ ... 21888?s=20


Is FR 24 down or something?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
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qf789
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:12 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
The next test flight is due to take off in the next hour

https://twitter.com/b777xLovers/status/ ... 21888?s=20


Is FR 24 down or something?


Yes they have been having issues the past 30 minutes or so

Try this for the time being

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE1
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:02 pm

N779XW is away on the first flight of the month.
 
SDL
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:04 pm

I follow her Always, looking forward to see her gain both more altutude and higher speed but maybe that comes later
 
airnorth
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:17 pm

It looks like the first two flights took off over Elliott Bay, away from populated areas, and the next two have been over more populated areas, or inland. Obviously for the first flight it makes sense to takeoff over less populated areas, and in fact the flight was delayed due to tailwinds preventing the first flight. Is there a formal decision, or permission given that the next flights can then be "normal", as in over populated areas, once the plane has shown that it can fly? Just wondering what the thought or certification process is here? Thanks.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:26 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
N779XW is away on the first flight of the month.

Goin' to Montana soon...

( a reference for us :old: :old: :old: rock and roll fans ).
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:38 pm

Pretty cool how it flew right over Boeing Everett plant
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:38 pm

airnorth wrote:
It looks like the first two flights took off over Elliott Bay, away from populated areas, and the next two have been over more populated areas, or inland. Obviously for the first flight it makes sense to takeoff over less populated areas, and in fact the flight was delayed due to tailwinds preventing the first flight. Is there a formal decision, or permission given that the next flights can then be "normal", as in over populated areas, once the plane has shown that it can fly? Just wondering what the thought or certification process is here? Thanks.


The first flight came out of Pane Field where there's an opportunity to avoid populated area.

Coming out of Boeing Field, the choice would be between down town vs. less populated but still urban Tukwilla and the SEATAC area. In this case, wouldn't the safer option being selecting the head wind?

If you head south, then the only option is to go inland as you want to avoid SEATAC traffic.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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ER757
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
N779XW is away on the first flight of the month.

Goin' to Montana soon...

( a reference for us :old: :old: :old: rock and roll fans ).

"Gonna be a dental floss tycoon"

Looks like she's flying a bit faster on this trip, so the pilots are putting their foot on the gas pedal a little harder
 
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Chipmunk1973
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:02 pm

bikerthai wrote:
RRUltrafan wrote:
It wouldn't exactly need it considering its supposed to fulfil the similar missions as the 77W, which aren't ULH flights. The 777-8x would benefit because of its mission requirements, but couldn't weight be saved on the -9x by simply reducing the fuel tank size?


:wink2: They already reduced the tank size by implementing the folding wing tip.

bt


Actually your witty reply got me thinking...

Aren’t the fuel tank surge valves/vents usually located near the wing tip? If that is the case does anyone know what Boeing has designed for the new 777X wing?

Rgds,
C1973
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:17 pm

These test flights can’t possibly be with autopilot right? The way the altitude and speed fluctuate is a bit much
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:21 pm

Opus99 wrote:
These test flights can’t possibly be with autopilot right? The way the altitude and speed fluctuate is a bit much


I doubt it, this aircraft is to define the handling characteristics of the 777-9 so I doubt that could be done with Autopilot.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:27 pm

nikeherc wrote:
Also, it is an entirely different wing than the earlier models, and the folding wing tips make it fit in the same width space as a 300ER, so we can't reach any quick conclusion as to their relative effect on fuel capacity. Also, the extra capacity is necessary to give the -8 the range it needs.

forget the wing tips. folding or not. they don't hold significant volume ( in comparison to the inner wing )
the wing got extended at the fattest point. That gives volume.
the wingbox is said to be the "same" ( haha. )
it is still Al ( just to save the grandfathering :-=)
Murphy is an optimist
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:29 pm

Wow they’re really climbing today 22,000 feet reached
 
hivue
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:04 pm

bikerthai wrote:
airnorth wrote:
It looks like the first two flights took off over Elliott Bay, away from populated areas, and the next two have been over more populated areas, or inland. Obviously for the first flight it makes sense to takeoff over less populated areas, and in fact the flight was delayed due to tailwinds preventing the first flight. Is there a formal decision, or permission given that the next flights can then be "normal", as in over populated areas, once the plane has shown that it can fly? Just wondering what the thought or certification process is here? Thanks.


The first flight came out of Pane Field where there's an opportunity to avoid populated area.

Coming out of Boeing Field, the choice would be between down town vs. less populated but still urban Tukwilla and the SEATAC area. In this case, wouldn't the safer option being selecting the head wind?

If you head south, then the only option is to go inland as you want to avoid SEATAC traffic.

bt


I imagine takeoffs from BFI are nothing more than benign, plain vanilla takeoffs. All test work regarding takeoff and landing performance is likely to be done at Moses Lake or some place like that.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
Schmave
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:16 am

I had to take a trip up to Seattle this past weekend, and flew out of SEA this morning (2/3). As we drove by Boeing Field at 5:30 this morning, I could see N779XW parked on the ramp with her wingtips folded up. I didn't get a chance to stop and take photos but it was cool to at least see the new plane!
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:59 am

WIederling wrote:
the wing got extended at the fattest point. That gives volume.


Not going to disagree that the wing tip will not contain much volume.

Will discuss why the the wing box is metal though. My guess is that since the fuselage is still metal, they did not want do deal with thermal expansion mismatch between a composite center wing box and the metal fuselage. Easier do deal with the mismatch at the wing/center wing box interface. Specially because the center wing box sits in front of the wheel well where there's a ton of complex load paths going on.

So assuming that he center wing box is the same thickness or similar shape as before just due to the fixed position of the floor and the keel, and the wing sweep is the same, then the only other factor to fuel volume would be the airfoil shape change, along with her length.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:13 am

Initial Airworthiness testing begins February 4th
 
Delta350
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:30 am

Opus99 wrote:
Initial Airworthiness testing begins February 4th

What’s that?
Plane Spotter from the Magic City and Hartsfield-Jackson...(ATL)
 
Aviator34ID
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:33 am

We are up to 4 flights now I think. Is anybody going to pick up the idea of tabulating flights/hours as the test program picks up speed?
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:27 am

Aviator34ID wrote:
We are up to 4 flights now I think. Is anybody going to pick up the idea of tabulating flights/hours as the test program picks up speed?


Great idea. You should do it!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:31 pm

 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:35 pm

Finally. Good to know, thanks.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:16 pm

Opus99 wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8H5yO1h8y-/?igshid=k04pgd8igl2w

Yesterday’s test had the gear up



I would have thought gear up would have started from flight 2.
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:19 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8H5yO1h8y-/?igshid=k04pgd8igl2w

Yesterday’s test had the gear up



I would have thought gear up would have started from flight 2.

I believe so too. This is the first picture confirming it
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:02 pm

N779XW is going to Spokane today on flight number BOE1
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:26 pm

Opus99 wrote:
MileHFL400 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B8H5yO1h8y-/?igshid=k04pgd8igl2w

Yesterday’s test had the gear up



I would have thought gear up would have started from flight 2.

I believe so too. This is the first picture confirming it


Wouldn't having the gears down cause issues at higher speed? I mean if you consider the typical air speed at which a 777 lowers the gear for landing and look at the flight test profile, would you be able to guess which flight the gears would have been up?

vt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
SDL
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:42 pm

My guess as an amateur is that you can fly pretty fast with gear down if you want because of the thin air up there.
 
carlokiii
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:59 pm

SDL wrote:
My guess as an amateur is that you can fly pretty fast with gear down if you want because of the thin air up there.

The increase in drag coefficient (due to gear down) and squared increase of speed would likely outweigh the decrease in air density, which would make the 777-9 gear-down setup still highly speed-limited.

Looking forward to higher quality in-flight gear-up pictures of the 777-9... matter of time before they’re in the airliners.net database.
 
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ER757
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:42 pm

Opus99 wrote:
N779XW is going to Spokane today on flight number BOE1

Maybe they are going there for lunch and then coming home for dinner :smile:
 
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qf789
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:51 pm

Second 779 test frame N779XX is at the fuel dock at PAE

Image

https://twitter.com/JenSchuld/status/12 ... 75616?s=20
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:52 pm

qf789 wrote:
Second 779 test frame N779XX is at the fuel dock at PAE

Image

https://twitter.com/JenSchuld/status/12 ... 75616?s=20

Nice. It’s coming along. I assume previous tests like gauntlet tests won’t be conducted on this frame. I expect the usual engine runs and RTO of course
 
SDL
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:43 pm

She’s online
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:04 pm

Opus99 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Second 779 test frame N779XX is at the fuel dock at PAE

Image

https://twitter.com/JenSchuld/status/12 ... 75616?s=20

Nice. It’s coming along. I assume previous tests like gauntlet tests won’t be conducted on this frame. I expect the usual engine runs and RTO of course


Can we expect a flight within the next week or so?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:31 pm

MileHFL400 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
qf789 wrote:
Second 779 test frame N779XX is at the fuel dock at PAE

Image

https://twitter.com/JenSchuld/status/12 ... 75616?s=20

Nice. It’s coming along. I assume previous tests like gauntlet tests won’t be conducted on this frame. I expect the usual engine runs and RTO of course


Can we expect a flight within the next week or so?

Let’s see. It’s possible, end of month is more probable though

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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos