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VCVSpotter
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 9:05 pm

Looks like they really opened her up for a moment, FR24 playback shows a speed jump from 450kts to around 548kts at 1:59PM Pacific. That's just 41kts shy of the speed of sound at 30,000ft :shock:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... w#2476a3fb
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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Spetsnaz55
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 9:05 pm

Reached 538 knots while I was watching. Amazing
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 9:08 pm

553 KNOTS?? Wow. Is there an aircraft now that reaches that? Or is this just test limits
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 9:13 pm

What was the wind situation at the time?
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 9:31 pm

Looks like N779XX flight was cut short, headed back to BFI now after traveling down the coast into Oregon (but not into California).

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE2

EDIT: It looks like they just turned around and will be doing loops off of the Oregon coast (as of 2:56PM Pacific)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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HTCone
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Thu May 07, 2020 10:25 pm

Folks if you are getting those speeds off FR24 then those are ground speeds and pretty normal for heavies, I’ve seen 747s, 777s, 787s, A350s and A380s well in excess of 700 knots coming off the NAT into my sector in the jet stream. Nothing worth getting excited about. At those flight levels it is Mach Number that counts.
Last edited by HTCone on Thu May 07, 2020 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 1:00 am

StTim wrote:
Those who think that Boeing will know (or have reasonable insights on) the final performance of the 779 frame are I think living in a fantasy land. We all know that up tp now that the 779 hasn't flown particularly high or fast (well the last couple of days have seen some change in that) and the performance will be found when they fly long sectors at high weight with all the performance tools optimised (load alleviation etc).

Now I am not saying it won't beat spec but there is a long way to go. Yes they will have some raw figures on weights, sfc of the engine etc but we are still a long way from anything to give them a comfortable feel.


BTW - this is what I was told several times during the A350 test campaign when asking if they would have a view on real world performance.

I think test pilots can get a pretty good feel for how a plane will do fairly early-long before it has been put through all its paces. From my perspective as a private pilot, I owned a C182 (with a partner) for 10 years. It was an old one-1962, which meant it did not have the “improvements” that Cessna put on it to improve slow speed performance, which they did but at the expense of weight and drag. Plus mine was exceptionally clean-this could be verified by sighting along the lower wingskin from the tip. Every other Cessna I have ever seen would show very slight ripples and bulges where the wing ribs were, but mine was as smooth as it was from the factory. I assume this was a testimony to it always having been treated well, no hard landings or other abuse. The previous owner told me it was the fastest 182 I’d ever fly, and he was right (so far, anyway).

Here’s the point. I had the chance to fly a number of other 182s during the time I owned it (especially since I ran the local FBO for two of those years) and it did not take me long to assess each one against mine. I did not have to go to max speed, or maximum climb, or any other extremes. I would know in the initial climb by how fast it flew and climbed at a given power setting. I knew how many feet per minute climb rate and what airspeed to expect at a given RPM and manifold pressure that I would get with mine, and if the plane I was flying did not achieve that (which none of them did), it would fall proportionally short in all phases of flight. And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 6:13 am

777-9 N779XX is scheduled for fuel tank thermal evaluation ground testing on May 8 at BFI

https://twitter.com/b777xLovers/status/ ... 2533109760
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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enzo011
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 6:21 am

SEPilot wrote:
StTim wrote:
Those who think that Boeing will know (or have reasonable insights on) the final performance of the 779 frame are I think living in a fantasy land. We all know that up tp now that the 779 hasn't flown particularly high or fast (well the last couple of days have seen some change in that) and the performance will be found when they fly long sectors at high weight with all the performance tools optimised (load alleviation etc).

Now I am not saying it won't beat spec but there is a long way to go. Yes they will have some raw figures on weights, sfc of the engine etc but we are still a long way from anything to give them a comfortable feel.


BTW - this is what I was told several times during the A350 test campaign when asking if they would have a view on real world performance.

I think test pilots can get a pretty good feel for how a plane will do fairly early-long before it has been put through all its paces. From my perspective as a private pilot, I owned a C182 (with a partner) for 10 years. It was an old one-1962, which meant it did not have the “improvements” that Cessna put on it to improve slow speed performance, which they did but at the expense of weight and drag. Plus mine was exceptionally clean-this could be verified by sighting along the lower wingskin from the tip. Every other Cessna I have ever seen would show very slight ripples and bulges where the wing ribs were, but mine was as smooth as it was from the factory. I assume this was a testimony to it always having been treated well, no hard landings or other abuse. The previous owner told me it was the fastest 182 I’d ever fly, and he was right (so far, anyway).

Here’s the point. I had the chance to fly a number of other 182s during the time I owned it (especially since I ran the local FBO for two of those years) and it did not take me long to assess each one against mine. I did not have to go to max speed, or maximum climb, or any other extremes. I would know in the initial climb by how fast it flew and climbed at a given power setting. I knew how many feet per minute climb rate and what airspeed to expect at a given RPM and manifold pressure that I would get with mine, and if the plane I was flying did not achieve that (which none of them did), it would fall proportionally short in all phases of flight. And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.


But what are the Boeing pilots comparing it against? You compared your 182 against the others, so what comparison do they have to know if it is performing better? This is the thing, I don't know if they will have the key performance indicators yet to make a comparison. The Airbus test pilots always only talked of how the aircraft handled at the start and not performance of the aircraft. This is the point I think St Tim is making, it will take more flights and closer to airline configurations (weights and flight profiles) to know how the aircraft is performing or if it is exceeding expectations.
 
travelhound
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 8:38 am

If I remember correctly LH recommended Boeing revise the flap settings for the 748i at cruise. This was a consequence of their own in service testing of different flight configurations. If I remember correctly it resulted in fuel burn savings of around a percent.

......and this is probably where the fuel burn / payload / range equation will be won and lost. Minor changes to settings here and there based on in service testing and not drop dead headline numbers showing one aircraft being a clear winner over the other.
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 9:56 am

They will not have got anywhere near flight testing of those sorts of functions yet. It is all at present basic flight stability in different configurations. They will know if there are any major gremlins in the frame (which I really doubt) and be getting a reasonable appreciation for how it flies. They are not however at the tricky parts of the envelope yet. That happens over time as they become more confident in the frame. It still has relatively few flight hours although that should start to trend up as the second frame starts regular flying as well.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 11:11 am

enzo011 wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
StTim wrote:
Those who think that Boeing will know (or have reasonable insights on) the final performance of the 779 frame are I think living in a fantasy land. We all know that up tp now that the 779 hasn't flown particularly high or fast (well the last couple of days have seen some change in that) and the performance will be found when they fly long sectors at high weight with all the performance tools optimised (load alleviation etc).

Now I am not saying it won't beat spec but there is a long way to go. Yes they will have some raw figures on weights, sfc of the engine etc but we are still a long way from anything to give them a comfortable feel.


BTW - this is what I was told several times during the A350 test campaign when asking if they would have a view on real world performance.

I think test pilots can get a pretty good feel for how a plane will do fairly early-long before it has been put through all its paces. From my perspective as a private pilot, I owned a C182 (with a partner) for 10 years. It was an old one-1962, which meant it did not have the “improvements” that Cessna put on it to improve slow speed performance, which they did but at the expense of weight and drag. Plus mine was exceptionally clean-this could be verified by sighting along the lower wingskin from the tip. Every other Cessna I have ever seen would show very slight ripples and bulges where the wing ribs were, but mine was as smooth as it was from the factory. I assume this was a testimony to it always having been treated well, no hard landings or other abuse. The previous owner told me it was the fastest 182 I’d ever fly, and he was right (so far, anyway).

Here’s the point. I had the chance to fly a number of other 182s during the time I owned it (especially since I ran the local FBO for two of those years) and it did not take me long to assess each one against mine. I did not have to go to max speed, or maximum climb, or any other extremes. I would know in the initial climb by how fast it flew and climbed at a given power setting. I knew how many feet per minute climb rate and what airspeed to expect at a given RPM and manifold pressure that I would get with mine, and if the plane I was flying did not achieve that (which none of them did), it would fall proportionally short in all phases of flight. And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.


But what are the Boeing pilots comparing it against? You compared your 182 against the others, so what comparison do they have to know if it is performing better? This is the thing, I don't know if they will have the key performance indicators yet to make a comparison. The Airbus test pilots always only talked of how the aircraft handled at the start and not performance of the aircraft. This is the point I think St Tim is making, it will take more flights and closer to airline configurations (weights and flight profiles) to know how the aircraft is performing or if it is exceeding expectations.

They are comparing it against predicted performance and experience with the 77W and 787. The engineers should have pretty detailed and accurate predictions of the 779’s performance in all phases of flight.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 11:21 am

SEPilot wrote:
enzo011 wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
I think test pilots can get a pretty good feel for how a plane will do fairly early-long before it has been put through all its paces. From my perspective as a private pilot, I owned a C182 (with a partner) for 10 years. It was an old one-1962, which meant it did not have the “improvements” that Cessna put on it to improve slow speed performance, which they did but at the expense of weight and drag. Plus mine was exceptionally clean-this could be verified by sighting along the lower wingskin from the tip. Every other Cessna I have ever seen would show very slight ripples and bulges where the wing ribs were, but mine was as smooth as it was from the factory. I assume this was a testimony to it always having been treated well, no hard landings or other abuse. The previous owner told me it was the fastest 182 I’d ever fly, and he was right (so far, anyway).

Here’s the point. I had the chance to fly a number of other 182s during the time I owned it (especially since I ran the local FBO for two of those years) and it did not take me long to assess each one against mine. I did not have to go to max speed, or maximum climb, or any other extremes. I would know in the initial climb by how fast it flew and climbed at a given power setting. I knew how many feet per minute climb rate and what airspeed to expect at a given RPM and manifold pressure that I would get with mine, and if the plane I was flying did not achieve that (which none of them did), it would fall proportionally short in all phases of flight. And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.


But what are the Boeing pilots comparing it against? You compared your 182 against the others, so what comparison do they have to know if it is performing better? This is the thing, I don't know if they will have the key performance indicators yet to make a comparison. The Airbus test pilots always only talked of how the aircraft handled at the start and not performance of the aircraft. This is the point I think St Tim is making, it will take more flights and closer to airline configurations (weights and flight profiles) to know how the aircraft is performing or if it is exceeding expectations.

They are comparing it against predicted performance and experience with the 77W and 787. The engineers should have pretty detailed and accurate predictions of the 779’s performance in all phases of flight.


Sorry I just don't buy that - however many times you repeat it.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 12:19 pm

StTim wrote:
Sorry I just don't buy that - however many times you repeat it.


And just because they are "Boeing" test pilots, it doesn't mean they do not have experience flying Airbus aircrafts.

Boeing or Airbus would not be doing their due diligence if they did not hire test pilots with extensive experience on a variety of platforms.

bt
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StTim
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 12:31 pm

bikerthai wrote:
StTim wrote:
Sorry I just don't buy that - however many times you repeat it.


And just because they are "Boeing" test pilots, it doesn't mean they do not have experience flying Airbus aircrafts.

Boeing or Airbus would not be doing their due diligence if they did not hire test pilots with extensive experience on a variety of platforms.

bt


I am not and never have knocked Boeing Test pilot, I am not even casting aspersions onto the Boeing 779 engineers or programme managers. They will probably know by now if they have a complete dog on their hands - I seriously doubt they do. They may also be starting to know if the frame has real potential BUT knowing it will or will not beat spec is still some way off.

I guess I am just not in the everything in the 779 land is really rosy. Boeing really do need this to do another 777W as the market for it is very weak for the next few years.
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 12:41 pm

StTim wrote:
They may also be starting to know if the frame has real potential BUT knowing it will or will not beat spec is still some way off.


Oh, by now, for good or for bad, they will know whether they will beat the spec.

They already know the weight. They know the engine performance, and they have flown enough to know the a general aero drag profile that can be fed into their historical database.

Boeing does not have much influence on engine performance and the drag profile is pretty much locked down. So if you start hearing that they are spending lots money to get the weight down, then you know they are in trouble with performance. The cargo door failure during static test surely will add weight to the airframe.

bt
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 1:52 pm

A historical note: As the original 777 was being built, going into production, and being test flown shop talk was leaking out of Boeing that this plane was going to ace it. Local TV and papers mentioned it. At the time I was thinking if I had spare money (I didn't then), I should buy stock. It almost was like us locals had inside information, and it would even be legal to act upon it. It could be an interesting project to connect the media coverage, and the Boeing stock prices. I do not remember when prices started reflecting the the success of the 777.
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 1:59 pm

bikerthai wrote:
StTim wrote:
They may also be starting to know if the frame has real potential BUT knowing it will or will not beat spec is still some way off.


Oh, by now, for good or for bad, they will know whether they will beat the spec.

They already know the weight. They know the engine performance, and they have flown enough to know the a general aero drag profile that can be fed into their historical database.

Boeing does not have much influence on engine performance and the drag profile is pretty much locked down. So if you start hearing that they are spending lots money to get the weight down, then you know they are in trouble with performance. The cargo door failure during static test surely will add weight to the airframe.

bt

I agree with you on this. I also feel that if they were not confient in the performance then i don't know why they would have built so many frames already because if signigicant change was needed then they would have to start spending money on changing ALL those frames.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 2:01 pm

SEPilot wrote:
StTim wrote:
Those who think that Boeing will know (or have reasonable insights on) the final performance of the 779 frame are I think living in a fantasy land. We all know that up tp now that the 779 hasn't flown particularly high or fast (well the last couple of days have seen some change in that) and the performance will be found when they fly long sectors at high weight with all the performance tools optimised (load alleviation etc).

Now I am not saying it won't beat spec but there is a long way to go. Yes they will have some raw figures on weights, sfc of the engine etc but we are still a long way from anything to give them a comfortable feel.


BTW - this is what I was told several times during the A350 test campaign when asking if they would have a view on real world performance.

I think test pilots can get a pretty good feel for how a plane will do fairly early-long before it has been put through all its paces. From my perspective as a private pilot, I owned a C182 (with a partner) for 10 years. It was an old one-1962, which meant it did not have the “improvements” that Cessna put on it to improve slow speed performance, which they did but at the expense of weight and drag. Plus mine was exceptionally clean-this could be verified by sighting along the lower wingskin from the tip. Every other Cessna I have ever seen would show very slight ripples and bulges where the wing ribs were, but mine was as smooth as it was from the factory. I assume this was a testimony to it always having been treated well, no hard landings or other abuse. The previous owner told me it was the fastest 182 I’d ever fly, and he was right (so far, anyway).

Here’s the point. I had the chance to fly a number of other 182s during the time I owned it (especially since I ran the local FBO for two of those years) and it did not take me long to assess each one against mine. I did not have to go to max speed, or maximum climb, or any other extremes. I would know in the initial climb by how fast it flew and climbed at a given power setting. I knew how many feet per minute climb rate and what airspeed to expect at a given RPM and manifold pressure that I would get with mine, and if the plane I was flying did not achieve that (which none of them did), it would fall proportionally short in all phases of flight. And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.

I certainly agree with you on this. They can even compare for example the 77W/87 at this time of its testing and see how the 779 compares. But what leaks have you been able to detect so far?
 
carlokiii
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 2:05 pm

Does anyone have a planform photo/diagram of a 777X compared to a 77W. I have always wondered how different the new composite wings are visually, but I have yet to find a proper comparison.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 3:22 pm

I for one believe the 777X is going to over perform. Not that I’ve heard anything in particular. But from the first flight I had a feeling. I don’t know if it’s main landing gear lifting off first signalling the improved L/D ratio? I don’t know if that means anything given the plane was super empty but a lot of people noted it so maybe it’s a rare occurrence in first flight. I have no technical logic to back that. And they’ve built like 10 frames and are still building more. So for me it’s like they seem pretty confident in the aircraft to be building it when it’s not even half way through testing.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 5:32 pm

777-9 N779XW on another test flight as BOE1, BFI-PAE

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n779xw
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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morrisond
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 6:18 pm

SEPilot wrote:
And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.


Care to share any of those leaks or point us in the right direction?

Thanks
 
JohanTally
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 6:58 pm

morrisond wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.


Care to share any of those leaks or point us in the right direction?

Thanks


Not a leak but the fact that Qantas was being offered a version of the 777-9 for Project Sunrise would allude to it potentially being more capable than the current specs offered to the public. Who knows what the configuration would of been but maybe it's coming in lighter than we are being told or possibly a MTOW bump can be accommodated with the new gear.

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/boe ... t-sunrise/
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 7:03 pm

JohanTally wrote:
morrisond wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.


Care to share any of those leaks or point us in the right direction?

Thanks


Not a leak but the fact that Qantas was being offered a version of the 777-9 for Project Sunrise would allude to it potentially being more capable than the current specs offered to the public. Who knows what the configuration would of been but maybe it's coming in lighter than we are being told or possibly a MTOW bump can be accommodated with the new gear.

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/boe ... t-sunrise/

Good point. And QR also saying they’ll switch the -8 for the -9 if it meets the -8 capabilities
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 8:21 pm

JohanTally wrote:
Not a leak but the fact that Qantas was being offered a version of the 777-9 for Project Sunrise would allude to it potentially being more capable than the current specs offered to the public. Who knows what the configuration would of been but maybe it's coming in lighter than we are being told or possibly a MTOW bump can be accommodated with the new gear.

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/boe ... t-sunrise/

...or since Boeing timeline had the 7778 appearing AFTER the 7779 the only options was a 777L which was available for a decade or so and not chosen by Qantas or the 777X. The 787 was already in use so offering that up as an option made no sense.
 
JohanTally
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 8:35 pm

par13del wrote:
JohanTally wrote:
Not a leak but the fact that Qantas was being offered a version of the 777-9 for Project Sunrise would allude to it potentially being more capable than the current specs offered to the public. Who knows what the configuration would of been but maybe it's coming in lighter than we are being told or possibly a MTOW bump can be accommodated with the new gear.

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/boe ... t-sunrise/

...or since Boeing timeline had the 7778 appearing AFTER the 7779 the only options was a 777L which was available for a decade or so and not chosen by Qantas or the 777X. The 787 was already in use so offering that up as an option made no sense.


Even before Boeing suspended/delayed production on the 778 the timeline probably wouldn't of worked because QF might not of had access to the early slots needed. Obviously I'm sure that's not the problem today because deferrals are expected worldwide. I am curious what the configuration on the 779 that was offered. QF could of started this route almost 15 years ago with the 77L that they ultimately helped design but never ordered. Pre-covid the business case might of been marginal but now I think QF is extremely fortunate to have not committed to billions over the next couple years on project sunrise.
 
xwb777
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 9:12 pm

I guess due to COVID19, we will never see the B779 in Dubai for hot weather testing in August.
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 9:22 pm

xwb777 wrote:
I guess due to COVID19, we will never see the B779 in Dubai for hot weather testing in August.

I think we still will. EK have insisted on it and being their largest customer they will adhere. I don't believe a lot of people have to be involved in that testing!
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 10:14 pm

777-9 N779XW returning to BFI after hitting 31,900ft at 1:33PM, and 575kts at 1:57PM (both times are Pacific). She was 14kts away from breaking the speed of sound :o Although winds likely helped :spin:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... w#24782460
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 10:41 pm

xwb777 wrote:
I guess due to COVID19, we will never see the B779 in Dubai for hot weather testing in August.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is there - actually would be more surprised if it wasn't
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 10:45 pm

SEPilot wrote:
StTim wrote:
Those who think that Boeing will know (or have reasonable insights on) the final performance of the 779 frame are I think living in a fantasy land. We all know that up tp now that the 779 hasn't flown particularly high or fast (well the last couple of days have seen some change in that) and the performance will be found when they fly long sectors at high weight with all the performance tools optimised (load alleviation etc).

Now I am not saying it won't beat spec but there is a long way to go. Yes they will have some raw figures on weights, sfc of the engine etc but we are still a long way from anything to give them a comfortable feel.

BTW - this is what I was told several times during the A350 test campaign when asking if they would have a view on real world performance.

I think test pilots can get a pretty good feel for how a plane will do fairly early-long before it has been put through all its paces. ... And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.


I suspect that the test pilots had a good idea 5 minutes into first flight if it was going to exceed expectations. All of the predicted performances are used for flight calculations. For example, for the given weight, temperature, and settings the flight computer would be predicting the distance to liftoff. If the plane really wants to fly and leaps into the air 500-1000 feet before expected, at a speed slower than predicted it will exceed performance. If the take off thrust results in a faster climb than predicted, it will probably exceed expectations. If the thrust settings at the various test altitudes are exceeding predicted speeds that will be information that will help establish the actual performance.

This test program has planes flying 3 to 4 times a week already, there seems little downtime outside of the CV situation. If there are problems with the plane, there is always extra ground time to fix things. This test campaign is looking like it is going well, we have all seen test campaign's that are not going well (7-Late-7 <cough> 7 Late 7).
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 11:08 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
StTim wrote:
Those who think that Boeing will know (or have reasonable insights on) the final performance of the 779 frame are I think living in a fantasy land. We all know that up tp now that the 779 hasn't flown particularly high or fast (well the last couple of days have seen some change in that) and the performance will be found when they fly long sectors at high weight with all the performance tools optimised (load alleviation etc).

Now I am not saying it won't beat spec but there is a long way to go. Yes they will have some raw figures on weights, sfc of the engine etc but we are still a long way from anything to give them a comfortable feel.

BTW - this is what I was told several times during the A350 test campaign when asking if they would have a view on real world performance.

I think test pilots can get a pretty good feel for how a plane will do fairly early-long before it has been put through all its paces. ... And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.


I suspect that the test pilots had a good idea 5 minutes into first flight if it was going to exceed expectations. All of the predicted performances are used for flight calculations. For example, for the given weight, temperature, and settings the flight computer would be predicting the distance to liftoff. If the plane really wants to fly and leaps into the air 500-1000 feet before expected, at a speed slower than predicted it will exceed performance. If the take off thrust results in a faster climb than predicted, it will probably exceed expectations. If the thrust settings at the various test altitudes are exceeding predicted speeds that will be information that will help establish the actual performance.

This test program has planes flying 3 to 4 times a week already, there seems little downtime outside of the CV situation. If there are problems with the plane, there is always extra ground time to fix things. This test campaign is looking like it is going well, we have all seen test campaign's that are not going well (7-Late-7 <cough> 7 Late 7).

given that during the first flight the main landing gear started lifting off before the nose gear says a lot. i've not seen that in previous test flights before
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 11:28 pm

Opus99 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
I think test pilots can get a pretty good feel for how a plane will do fairly early-long before it has been put through all its paces. ... And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.


I suspect that the test pilots had a good idea 5 minutes into first flight if it was going to exceed expectations. All of the predicted performances are used for flight calculations. For example, for the given weight, temperature, and settings the flight computer would be predicting the distance to liftoff. If the plane really wants to fly and leaps into the air 500-1000 feet before expected, at a speed slower than predicted it will exceed performance. If the take off thrust results in a faster climb than predicted, it will probably exceed expectations. If the thrust settings at the various test altitudes are exceeding predicted speeds that will be information that will help establish the actual performance.

This test program has planes flying 3 to 4 times a week already, there seems little downtime outside of the CV situation. If there are problems with the plane, there is always extra ground time to fix things. This test campaign is looking like it is going well, we have all seen test campaign's that are not going well (7-Late-7 <cough> 7 Late 7).

given that during the first flight the main landing gear started lifting off before the nose gear says a lot. i've not seen that in previous test flights before


It seemed to be lifting before rotation, it really wants to fly. An encore video of the first flight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-9-jSEnkwI
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Fri May 08, 2020 11:48 pm

morrisond wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
And while the 779 is essentially a new plane, I am sure that the test pilots have enough experience and Boeing has made enough calculations to know whether the plane is falling short of expectations, meeting them, or exceeding them just on the basis of the relatively limited flying they have done so far. But they are going to keep this information closely guarded unless it is doing much better than expected, in which case there are likely to be some carefully orchestrated leaks. And I think I have detected a few of those.


Care to share any of those leaks or point us in the right direction?

Thanks

Nothing specific, but there have been veiled comments by certain members of this forum who I believe have inside knowledge to lead me to that conclusion. But it is at this point just my impression.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 2:50 am

StTim wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
enzo011 wrote:

But what are the Boeing pilots comparing it against? You compared your 182 against the others, so what comparison do they have to know if it is performing better? This is the thing, I don't know if they will have the key performance indicators yet to make a comparison. The Airbus test pilots always only talked of how the aircraft handled at the start and not performance of the aircraft. This is the point I think St Tim is making, it will take more flights and closer to airline configurations (weights and flight profiles) to know how the aircraft is performing or if it is exceeding expectations.

They are comparing it against predicted performance and experience with the 77W and 787. The engineers should have pretty detailed and accurate predictions of the 779’s performance in all phases of flight.


Sorry I just don't buy that - however many times you repeat it.

There will be incredibly detailed fuel burn versus prediction calculations. Flight testing is often done to tight +/-2 knt flight speeds to ensure accurate measurements of fuel burn. Flight test aircraft add incredibly accurate rotometers to measure fuel flow that are only in a few flight test aircraft, but it is rare for the first aircraft not to have them.


As already noted, an incredible amount of tuning is to occur. The 779 has underside laminar flow in that lovely new wing. That requires putting roughish (precision sand paper) at spots in order to stop stalls from propogating.

So they will know fuel burn, but one expects final fuel burn to be less. I would SWAG 3% less.

The full cruise speed hasn't been achieved, so there is no way to verify the shock wave drag at nominal cruise speeds. Yet. Boeing will work up to that.

If it seems like I am saying they know but don't know, I am. The models will tell them the trend. But until they fly nominal cruise Mach #s with 40T+ payload, there is a small uncertainty.

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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 11:38 am

WH001 777-9 N779XW departed Boeing Field for OEW-50 high speed expansion testing. Flight crew noticed one of the engines making a growling noise, comms with the telemetry room here.

http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/05/paine-field-may-8.html

Listening to the telecommunications seems they went up to Mach 0.89.

The engines did make a growling sound for a brief period but listening it sounds like they were expecting it?
 
kriskarch
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 12:31 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
777-9 N779XW returning to BFI after hitting 31,900ft at 1:33PM, and 575kts at 1:57PM (both times are Pacific). She was 14kts away from breaking the speed of sound :o Although winds likely helped :spin:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... w#24782460


I think you are basing your speeds on ground speed, so it's not 14 kts from speed of sound. It was mach 0.89, so still long way to speed of sound :) 575kts GS is nothing spectacular I guess.
 
MileHFL400
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 1:51 pm

Opus99 wrote:
WH001 777-9 N779XW departed Boeing Field for OEW-50 high speed expansion testing. Flight crew noticed one of the engines making a growling noise, comms with the telemetry room here.

http://kpae.blogspot.com/2020/05/paine-field-may-8.html

Listening to the telecommunications seems they went up to Mach 0.89.

The engines did make a growling sound for a brief period but listening it sounds like they were expecting it?


Must have been getting hungry.
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 7:04 pm

I have no idea IF the 779's performance is essentially as predicted, less than predicted, or better than predicted. However, I do side with those who say that the test pilots and Boeing clearly have a very real idea on where it sits between those groups. In my long engineering career I have had many experiences with testing of other kinds of industrial and power pant equipment; and myself is one of the industry experts on testing heat exchangers (virtaully all motors over 50 hp and all other large equipment is tested before shipment to the plant for installation, efficiency is HUGE for power plants). In all cases the initial partial load or low power testing told the basic story of where it fell compared to the design goals (and if the item under-performed on the partial load or low power testing it was often redesigned before completing the remaining testing). Yes, minor things could then be done to tweak things a bit. But, noticeable movement from "under-performing" to "essentially meeting" - or "essentially meeting" to "over-performing" always took noticeable redesign work somewhere (and the later improvement to "over-performing" was only done if the Customer was willing to pay for that, which does occasionally happen as having extra margin can provide future flexibility for overall plant upgrades or in some cases pay for itself in efficiency, and in certain cases the Mfr engineers know that if they upgrade to the "initial spec" deign to the next level that they will gain about "X%").

I'm very sure that within a few test flights that the Test Pilots and Boeing Engineers will have figured out where the 779 is in the range.

I also believe that there appears to be no significant redesign work going on that its most likely in the "essentially meeting " to 'over-performs" range.

Have a great day,
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 7:58 pm

Looks like they really are kicking up the testing, 777-9 N779XW (BOE1) scheduled BFI-BFI 1:30PM - 5:22PM today (May 9). Can't wait to see this beauty in the future.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE1
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 8:08 pm

2175301 wrote:
I have no idea IF the 779's performance is essentially as predicted, less than predicted, or better than predicted. However, I do side with those who say that the test pilots and Boeing clearly have a very real idea on where it sits between those groups. In my long engineering career I have had many experiences with testing of other kinds of industrial and power pant equipment; and myself is one of the industry experts on testing heat exchangers (virtaully all motors over 50 hp and all other large equipment is tested before shipment to the plant for installation, efficiency is HUGE for power plants). In all cases the initial partial load or low power testing told the basic story of where it fell compared to the design goals (and if the item under-performed on the partial load or low power testing it was often redesigned before completing the remaining testing). Yes, minor things could then be done to tweak things a bit. But, noticeable movement from "under-performing" to "essentially meeting" - or "essentially meeting" to "over-performing" always took noticeable redesign work somewhere (and the later improvement to "over-performing" was only done if the Customer was willing to pay for that, which does occasionally happen as having extra margin can provide future flexibility for overall plant upgrades or in some cases pay for itself in efficiency, and in certain cases the Mfr engineers know that if they upgrade to the "initial spec" deign to the next level that they will gain about "X%").

I'm very sure that within a few test flights that the Test Pilots and Boeing Engineers will have figured out where the 779 is in the range.

I also believe that there appears to be no significant redesign work going on that its most likely in the "essentially meeting " to 'over-performs" range.

Have a great day,


I've been involved with steam plants and large commercial buildings. Startup on some is a real joy because every test is meeting or exceeding specs. Other ones seem to be cursed and there is lots of fixes going on just to get it passed. The 779 test program seems to be on a good path, seeming similar to the 787-10 test program where everything is working. A great example of cursed was the 7 Late 7, where test flights suddenly didn't happen for a couple weeks as they fixed things.

Mach 0.89 - well they didn't hold back there. What is the typical max speed in certification tests?
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 8:48 pm

lightsaber wrote:
There will be incredibly detailed fuel burn versus prediction calculations. Flight testing is often done to tight +/-2 knt flight speeds to ensure accurate measurements of fuel burn. Flight test aircraft add incredibly accurate rotometers to measure fuel flow that are only in a few flight test aircraft, but it is rare for the first aircraft not to have them.

Lightsaber


Probably highly accurate turbine meters from FTI or a similar source. I've used FTI meters for decades, back in 93 on one project we installed 2 turbine meters (a 2" and a 6" meter) that had their correction electronics installed. In calibration it had 2 10-point curves loaded into hard memory to correct for temperature of a viscous fluid. Back then it was a box 2'x2' to accomplish. The latest meters we are buying from them use the micro link pickoff. It includes both temperature and pressure sensors as well as the meter pulse (a small magnet inserted into the turbine edge so each rotation is counted). It is 3/4" diameter x 3". Now the 4" meter with this pickoff is accurate across a 100:1 turndown (flows from 12.5 to 1,250 gpm) accurate to 0.1% across the full temperature range of the fluids. It corrects for meter linearity as well as the density and viscosity correction. With gases it corrects to standard conditions (70F, 1 atmosphere) even though the measured flows range from -50F to 200F.

The set in 93 the calibration lab received the meters and put them thru their paces, after manually calculating all the corrections for their super accurate meters they came back indicating that our test stand meters were better than their sacred calibration meters.

https://ftimeters.com/products/turbine- ... -ft-series
https://ftimeters.com/micro-link/
 
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sat May 09, 2020 9:20 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
2175301 wrote:
I have no idea IF the 779's performance is essentially as predicted, less than predicted, or better than predicted. However, I do side with those who say that the test pilots and Boeing clearly have a very real idea on where it sits between those groups. In my long engineering career I have had many experiences with testing of other kinds of industrial and power pant equipment; and myself is one of the industry experts on testing heat exchangers (virtaully all motors over 50 hp and all other large equipment is tested before shipment to the plant for installation, efficiency is HUGE for power plants). In all cases the initial partial load or low power testing told the basic story of where it fell compared to the design goals (and if the item under-performed on the partial load or low power testing it was often redesigned before completing the remaining testing). Yes, minor things could then be done to tweak things a bit. But, noticeable movement from "under-performing" to "essentially meeting" - or "essentially meeting" to "over-performing" always took noticeable redesign work somewhere (and the later improvement to "over-performing" was only done if the Customer was willing to pay for that, which does occasionally happen as having extra margin can provide future flexibility for overall plant upgrades or in some cases pay for itself in efficiency, and in certain cases the Mfr engineers know that if they upgrade to the "initial spec" deign to the next level that they will gain about "X%").

I'm very sure that within a few test flights that the Test Pilots and Boeing Engineers will have figured out where the 779 is in the range.

I also believe that there appears to be no significant redesign work going on that its most likely in the "essentially meeting " to 'over-performs" range.

Have a great day,


I've been involved with steam plants and large commercial buildings. Startup on some is a real joy because every test is meeting or exceeding specs. Other ones seem to be cursed and there is lots of fixes going on just to get it passed. The 779 test program seems to be on a good path, seeming similar to the 787-10 test program where everything is working. A great example of cursed was the 7 Late 7, where test flights suddenly didn't happen for a couple weeks as they fixed things.

Mach 0.89 - well they didn't hold back there. What is the typical max speed in certification tests?

Mach 0.89 is the maximum cruise speed of the 777-300ER. So they have proven operational envelope.

Now they must prove to redline speed. A very high risk test not usually performed until later. For certification, it must be proven that the airframe does not sustain damage up to the redline speed. IF the redline speed is exceeded by even 1 kt, the airframe is grounded for extensive inspection.

But one doesn't do redline testing until all the envelope, flutter, flight control, and engine testing is complete. For if the airframe isn't in final configuration, the risky test must be repeated.

Some airframes are perfectly fine up to one speed, and then 2 kts later the shock wave forces will start cracking the wing or leading edges quickly. The U2 is the extreme example as to maximize lift it must be flown as fast as possible, so maximum cruise is limited by the redline speed.

We're six months from the redline testing by how I would plan a test program.

Lightsaber
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sun May 10, 2020 1:31 am

https://twitter.com/EnderFPE/status/125 ... 34082?s=20

This was from someone who works for Boeing/Has insight at Boeing just to give you an insight into what the test program kind of looks like this was just after the original first flight of N779XX was pushed back a day due to the instrumentation that collects data on board.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sun May 10, 2020 3:54 am

They are definitely not slowing down the testing-WH 001 flew again today
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N779XW
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sun May 10, 2020 4:08 am

Interesting comms today. The pilots point out a similarity between the 777X to the 300er and the 787-10. They say they have very similar “lateral activity”

http://www.paineairport.com/sounds/wh001may9.mp3
Last edited by Opus99 on Sun May 10, 2020 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sun May 10, 2020 4:10 am

I heard that.....hope it's a good thing

Opus99 wrote:
Interesting comms today. The pilots point out a similarity between the 777X to the 300er and the 787-10

http://www.paineairport.com/sounds/wh001may9.mp3
 
Opus99
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sun May 10, 2020 4:12 am

TropicalSky wrote:
I heard that.....hope it's a good thing

Opus99 wrote:
Interesting comms today. The pilots point out a similarity between the 777X to the 300er and the 787-10

http://www.paineairport.com/sounds/wh001may9.mp3

I would hope! Seeing as their both doing well in service and the -10 had a seamless certification
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Boeing 777X Testing/Production Thread - 2020

Sun May 10, 2020 4:13 am

I'm excited about this plane....I think Boeing might have a hit in the making

Opus99 wrote:
TropicalSky wrote:
I heard that.....hope it's a good thing

Opus99 wrote:
Interesting comms today. The pilots point out a similarity between the 777X to the 300er and the 787-10

http://www.paineairport.com/sounds/wh001may9.mp3

I would hope! Seeing as their both doing well in service and the -10 had a seamless certification

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