DeltaRules
Posts: 5042
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:56 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
Something for almost everyone on the thread in today’s massive G4 expansion:

Cincinnati (CVG) gets seasonal MEM
Dayton (DAY) gets seasonal VPS
Columbus (LCK) gets seasonal ORF


Well, there's destination 5 for DAY finally. Good news for them. LCK-ORF is interesting. CVG-MEM is VERY interesting.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
jbmitt
Posts: 645
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 3:59 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:25 pm

jplatts wrote:
While G4 hasn't yet added CVG-HOU nonstop service, G4 had announced that it is going to be starting service out of HOU starting on May 21st. G4's initial routes out of HOU to TYS, AVL, SAV, and VPS are all to leisure destinations in the Southeast that aren't currently served by WN.

G4 adding CVG-HOU nonstop service might be a possibility with HOU being much closer to the Johnson Space Center, Kemah, and Galveston than IAH is. The IAH/HOU market also doesn't currently have any nonstop LCC service from CVG.


Having lived in both Cincinnati and Houston, nobody travels for Kemah. Galveston gets locals and cruisers. Johnson Space Center is an good attraction, but part of a larger visit.

I think this would be a WN route especially for intl connections.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:32 pm

Apparently, a bunch of emergency supplies for Puerto Rico will be flown by Volga-Dnepr out of either CMH or CVG:

https://twitter.com/WandrMe/status/1217105631791984641
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
cledaybuck
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:36 pm

Shields wrote:
With thanks to Enilria, DL - CVG-BOS goes 5x soon. All five frequencies are the 717. Nice surprise to see this much mainline metal on the route. It is interesting, though, that Boston can sustain this much capacity, yet DL's CVG-LGA is all Endeavor CR9. Moreover, it appears DL is no longer running 717s on CVG-DCA during the summer season... all Endeavor.

BOS is a DL monopoly route where LGA and DCA have competition from AA.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3328
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:40 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
BOS is a DL monopoly route where LGA and DCA have competition from AA.


In addition to nonstop competition from AA on CVG-LGA/DCA, DL CVG-LGA nonstop service is also in competition with G4 and UA CVG-EWR nonstop service, and DL CVG-DCA nonstop service is also in competition with UA CVG-IAD nonstop service and WN CVG-BWI nonstop service.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:41 pm

jbmitt wrote:
jplatts wrote:
While G4 hasn't yet added CVG-HOU nonstop service, G4 had announced that it is going to be starting service out of HOU starting on May 21st. G4's initial routes out of HOU to TYS, AVL, SAV, and VPS are all to leisure destinations in the Southeast that aren't currently served by WN.

G4 adding CVG-HOU nonstop service might be a possibility with HOU being much closer to the Johnson Space Center, Kemah, and Galveston than IAH is. The IAH/HOU market also doesn't currently have any nonstop LCC service from CVG.


Having lived in both Cincinnati and Houston, nobody travels for Kemah. Galveston gets locals and cruisers. Johnson Space Center is an good attraction, but part of a larger visit.

I think this would be a WN route especially for intl connections.


Agreed on all counts. Just a few years ago WN trialed CMH-HOU as a holiday seasonal. Before long it had gone year-round daily. In fact, before the MAX groundings it was one of the first CMH flights to see the MAX8 regularly. I fly the route frequently to visit family and it is usually full. Competition on the route (on paper) is UA at 3-4x daily to IAH, but anyone who frequents Houston will tell you that if you’re on the north or south sides of town, the other airport might as well be in another state as the drive time and traffic can be horrendous. I’m sure WN CVG-HOU is only a matter of time.
 
jplatts
Posts: 3328
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:15 pm

AA had announced point-to-point nonstop service out of BOS to IND, RDU, and ILM today, and G4 had also announced nonstop service to AVL, VPS, GRR, and TYS out of BOS today.

AA or G4 adding BOS-CVG nonstop service might be a possibility with AA having recently added some point-to-point nonstop routes out of BOS and with G4 announcing plans to serve BOS.

There is likely room for nonstop competition on the BOS-CVG route with BOS-CVG being one of the top routes out of CVG that doesn't currently have any nonstop competition. Who of the following is most likely to add BOS-CVG nonstop service: AA, G4, F9, B6, or WN?
 
jplatts
Posts: 3328
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:45 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
Agreed on all counts. Just a few years ago WN trialed CMH-HOU as a holiday seasonal. Before long it had gone year-round daily. In fact, before the MAX groundings it was one of the first CMH flights to see the MAX8 regularly. I fly the route frequently to visit family and it is usually full. Competition on the route (on paper) is UA at 3-4x daily to IAH, but anyone who frequents Houston will tell you that if you’re on the north or south sides of town, the other airport might as well be in another state as the drive time and traffic can be horrendous. I’m sure WN CVG-HOU is only a matter of time.


WN can also likely make CVG-HOU and CVG-DAL nonstop service work with fewer non-connecting passengers than G4 as WN is able to make SDF-HOU, SDF-DAL, and other nonstop routes work out with fewer non-connecting passengers.

Here are the PDEW's and load factors on WN SDF-DAL/HOU in Q3 2019:
SDF-DAL on WN: 49 PDEW, 71.32% load factor
SDF-HOU on WN: 63 PDEW, 78.09% load factor

WN might be able to get more O&D traffic on CVG-HOU and CVG-DAL than it currently does on SDF-HOU and SDF-DAL if it adds nonstop service to HOU and DAL out of CVG with CVG carrying more than double the amount of domestic passengers than SDF does and with the population of the Cincinnati metro area being approximately 1 1/2 times that of the Louisville metro area.

O&D numbers might also be even higher on CVG-DAL if WN adds CVG-DAL nonstop service and F9 permanently discontinues CVG-DFW nonstop service.

WN also has stronger point-of-sale in both the Dallas and Houston markets than G4 or F9, and both HOU and DAL are also two of the largest WN stations that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from CVG.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 144
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:25 pm

Flying from the B concourse today at CMH, a couple of observations:

1. There is a parking stand with lines for A319, A320, and A321 but no jetbridge between UA’s B34 and NK’s B35 (I’m not sure if the jetbridge at B35 is long enough to be used as a swing gate for boarding). This morning there is an NK A320 parked there. DeltaRules do you know if this is used for RON aircraft? Is it general use or part of the NK lease? Could a separate jetbridge be added in the future if needed?

2. The customer service desks at the shared B36 gate are quite a sight. Bright yellow NK colors at the boarding pass scanning area, a cloth UA banner hanging behind the desk, and right next to it an AA carry-on restrictions sign. The computer must be common use too because UA is using it this morning to re-route customers with connections on a delayed IAH flight. I wonder if CRAA coordinates who uses it when, or if it’s a matter of direct cooperation between the airline station managers?
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:23 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
Flying from the B concourse today at CMH, a couple of observations:

1. There is a parking stand with lines for A319, A320, and A321 but no jetbridge between UA’s B34 and NK’s B35 (I’m not sure if the jetbridge at B35 is long enough to be used as a swing gate for boarding). This morning there is an NK A320 parked there. DeltaRules do you know if this is used for RON aircraft? Is it general use or part of the NK lease? Could a separate jetbridge be added in the future if needed?

2. The customer service desks at the shared B36 gate are quite a sight. Bright yellow NK colors at the boarding pass scanning area, a cloth UA banner hanging behind the desk, and right next to it an AA carry-on restrictions sign. The computer must be common use too because UA is using it this morning to re-route customers with connections on a delayed IAH flight. I wonder if CRAA coordinates who uses it when, or if it’s a matter of direct cooperation between the airline station managers?


No idea on #1. Google Maps isn't much help, as it hasn't been updated to show the jetway at B36 being reinstalled. I seem to remember NW could park four planes there, two at each gate. Maybe FlyCMH can explain how that might work based on his days working at CMH.

B36 used to be a sight to see and I'm glad it still is. At one point, there was a Spirit yellow sign with no NK logo.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:27 pm

CMH-SAN is the only unserved US route among airports in the Top 50, with a PDEW of 96: https://www.anna.aero/2020/01/13/usas-t ... assengers/
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:34 pm

December numbers are out for CVG.

https://www.cvgairport.com/docs/default ... ?sfvrsn=68

- Pax numbers up 7.41% in December.
- Growth for the year clocked in at 2.68%
- Pax totals for all of 2019 ended up at 9,103,554 the highest seen since 2009

Well done!
 
atbPy
Posts: 24
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:36 am

DeltaRules wrote:
CMH-SAN is the only unserved US route among airports in the Top 50, with a PDEW of 96: https://www.anna.aero/2020/01/13/usas-t ... assengers/


Probably not quite enough demand to warrant someone picking it up due to the distance and the type of aircraft it would require. Unless the supply could increase the demand of that destination.
 
flycmh2009
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:22 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:10 am

DeltaRules wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
Something for almost everyone on the thread in today’s massive G4 expansion:

Cincinnati (CVG) gets seasonal MEM
Dayton (DAY) gets seasonal VPS
Columbus (LCK) gets seasonal ORF


Well, there's destination 5 for DAY finally. Good news for them. LCK-ORF is interesting. CVG-MEM is VERY interesting.


LCK-ORF actually doesn't really surprise me. ORF (i.e. Virginia Beach), like MYR and SAV/HHH, is a very popular summer beach vacation destination for Ohioans. It's a day's drive, so very accessible. But, great to see another add from Allegiant. I'm actually surprised they serve as many destinations as they do out of LCK, considering CVG base is right down the road.
 
flycmh2009
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:22 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:30 am

atbPy wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
CMH-SAN is the only unserved US route among airports in the Top 50, with a PDEW of 96: https://www.anna.aero/2020/01/13/usas-t ... assengers/


Probably not quite enough demand to warrant someone picking it up due to the distance and the type of aircraft it would require. Unless the supply could increase the demand of that destination.


Probably not, but I'm holding out hope! A friend of mine works for the CRAA and believes either WN or NK (most likely) would be first to jump in. I think NK would be a great jump start to the market to stimulate demand. It's highly seasonal and would probably do well in the summer at 2-3x/week.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:03 pm

Here are the load factors for WN nonstop flights out of CVG and CMH in October 2019:
CVG-BWI - 77.39%
CVG-MDW - 79.30%
CVG-DEN - 92.06%
CVG-MCO - 93.18%
CMH-ATL - 67.57%
CMH-BNA - 74.59%
CMH-BOS - 71.12%
CMH-BWI - 68.30%
CMH-DAL - 82.78%
CMH-DCA - 69.07%
CMH-DEN - 90.57%
CMH-FLL - 75.20%
CMH-HOU - 88.24%
CMH-LAS - 90.01%
CMH-MCO - 87.22%
CMH-MDW - 74.11%
CMH-OAK - 89.37%
CMH-PHX - 92.37%
CMH-RSW - 91.54%
CMH-STL - 85.57%
CMH-TPA - 75.13%
 
flyCMH
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:26 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
Flying from the B concourse today at CMH, a couple of observations:

1. There is a parking stand with lines for A319, A320, and A321 but no jetbridge between UA’s B34 and NK’s B35 (I’m not sure if the jetbridge at B35 is long enough to be used as a swing gate for boarding). This morning there is an NK A320 parked there. DeltaRules do you know if this is used for RON aircraft? Is it general use or part of the NK lease? Could a separate jetbridge be added in the future if needed?

2. The customer service desks at the shared B36 gate are quite a sight. Bright yellow NK colors at the boarding pass scanning area, a cloth UA banner hanging behind the desk, and right next to it an AA carry-on restrictions sign. The computer must be common use too because UA is using it this morning to re-route customers with connections on a delayed IAH flight. I wonder if CRAA coordinates who uses it when, or if it’s a matter of direct cooperation between the airline station managers?


No idea on #1. Google Maps isn't much help, as it hasn't been updated to show the jetway at B36 being reinstalled. I seem to remember NW could park four planes there, two at each gate. Maybe FlyCMH can explain how that might work based on his days working at CMH.

B36 used to be a sight to see and I'm glad it still is. At one point, there was a Spirit yellow sign with no NK logo.


I'm afraid I'm not sure either. Back when I worked at CMH, there were no common use workstations. That may changed by now, hence the ability to operate multiple airlines from a single gate. Or they have multiple proprietary workstations connected to that gate. Either way, the gate B34-B36 operation is somewhat of a conundrum for me as well.

flycmh2009 wrote:
LCK-ORF actually doesn't really surprise me. ORF (i.e. Virginia Beach), like MYR and SAV/HHH, is a very popular summer beach vacation destination for Ohioans. It's a day's drive, so very accessible. But, great to see another add from Allegiant. I'm actually surprised they serve as many destinations as they do out of LCK, considering CVG base is right down the road.


Agreed, very happy to see this route being started by Allegiant and think it's a natural progression for their portfolio of destinations from LCK.

In other CMH/LCK news, Columbus Business First printed an odd article about the "loss" of service to the Bay Area from CMH as a result of WN's canceled OAK service and UA's 2-month suspension of SFO:

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... s_headline

Seems a bit overblown, as SFO should come back by early March. Hopefully if the service is perceived by UA to have left significant enough of a gap and the fleet constraints from the MAX groundings is resolved, the route won't see a seasonal hiatus come winter 2021.

Lastly, a bit more local flair will be added to the retail scene at CMH as 3 kiosks selling local products will be opening in each concourse:

https://www.dispatch.com/business/20200 ... -terminals

I like the idea of adding some hyper-local for sale items in the airport. There's lots of potential merchants out there. Though I have to wonder how it will work with HMS Host being the de-facto concessionaire at the airport. Will the airport have to defray the cost of potential lost revenue to HMS, or could there possibly be a loophole in the contract that allows these kiosks?
 
Robert1010
Posts: 179
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:00 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
December numbers are out for CVG.

https://www.cvgairport.com/docs/default ... ?sfvrsn=68

- Pax numbers up 7.41% in December.
- Growth for the year clocked in at 2.68%
- Pax totals for all of 2019 ended up at 9,103,554 the highest seen since 2009

Well done!

Nice numbers by CVG , I saw CLE broke 10 mil , Any word on CMH # ???
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 144
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:30 pm

Robert1010 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
December numbers are out for CVG.

https://www.cvgairport.com/docs/default ... ?sfvrsn=68

- Pax numbers up 7.41% in December.
- Growth for the year clocked in at 2.68%
- Pax totals for all of 2019 ended up at 9,103,554 the highest seen since 2009

Well done!

Nice numbers by CVG , I saw CLE broke 10 mil , Any word on CMH # ???


CMH numbers are released with the board meeting agenda the Friday prior to the actual meeting, so we’ll get them one week from today!
 
brooklynchris13
Posts: 270
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:51 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
Flying from the B concourse today at CMH, a couple of observations:

1. There is a parking stand with lines for A319, A320, and A321 but no jetbridge between UA’s B34 and NK’s B35 (I’m not sure if the jetbridge at B35 is long enough to be used as a swing gate for boarding). This morning there is an NK A320 parked there. DeltaRules do you know if this is used for RON aircraft? Is it general use or part of the NK lease? Could a separate jetbridge be added in the future if needed?

2. The customer service desks at the shared B36 gate are quite a sight. Bright yellow NK colors at the boarding pass scanning area, a cloth UA banner hanging behind the desk, and right next to it an AA carry-on restrictions sign. The computer must be common use too because UA is using it this morning to re-route customers with connections on a delayed IAH flight. I wonder if CRAA coordinates who uses it when, or if it’s a matter of direct cooperation between the airline station managers?


Happy New Year everyone! Here's to a great year at CMH and safe travels for all. As for the B35 additional parking spot, it does appear the jet bridge at B35 is more than long enough to service any aircraft which would use it. It also appears that there may now be pretty regular times when Spirit has three A/C on the ground at the same time with the AM departures. Having that additional parking spot saves them from having to use B25 which I have seen a few times. I have not seen anything else too interesting during my recent travels but will keep my eyes open.
"Be the change you want to see in the world" (mg)
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:34 pm

Here's the RFP for new jetbridges at CMH and LCK from a couple years ago, the most interesting bit being Page 21 (of the PDF), which lists the aircraft which are meant to "fit" at each gate (A1 and B36 are excluded): https://columbusairports.com/storage/pr ... -final.pdf

...and here's CMH's Competition Plan, which includes diagrams for parking positions at the airport (Page 5): https://columbusairports.com/storage/pr ... signed.pdf . The amount of space in the yellow shaded area (go figure, the only non-transparent one on the sheet) seems to be big enough for two airplanes.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
CMHtraveler
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:54 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
Here's the RFP for new jetbridges at CMH and LCK from a couple years ago, the most interesting bit being Page 21 (of the PDF), which lists the aircraft which are meant to "fit" at each gate (A1 and B36 are excluded): https://columbusairports.com/storage/pr ... -final.pdf

...and here's CMH's Competition Plan, which includes diagrams for parking positions at the airport (Page 5): https://columbusairports.com/storage/pr ... signed.pdf . The amount of space in the yellow shaded area (go figure, the only non-transparent one on the sheet) seems to be big enough for two airplanes.


Thank you, the second document appears to answer the question (despite the odd non-transparency). It seems NK does in fact lease both parking spots at B35. Whether they actually use the jetbridge to board passengers at both, or just store a frame at the other spot and tow it over for boarding I’m not sure.
 
flyguy89
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:26 pm

Looks like CVG-RDU gets a nice capacity bump from DL. According to Enilria's OAG thread, starting in June the route will go from less than 2 daily flights to 3 daily flights. Equipment mix now appears to be 2x CRJ2 1x CRJ7, so an overall slight gain in capacity and an obvious gain in frequency. Great to see for both CVG and RDU!
 
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flymco753
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:31 pm

Appears that CMH-DTW RON is an A321 for the summer. That was awfully fast considering the route had been plagued with RJ's for a long time.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
flyCMH
Posts: 2295
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 1999 12:15 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:48 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Appears that CMH-DTW RON is an A321 for the summer. That was awfully fast considering the route had been plagued with RJ's for a long time.


Wow, good catch! Summer schedules are still subject to change, but hopefully that upgauge remains.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:00 pm

flyCMH wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Appears that CMH-DTW RON is an A321 for the summer. That was awfully fast considering the route had been plagued with RJ's for a long time.


Wow, good catch! Summer schedules are still subject to change, but hopefully that upgauge remains.


Boy, that's a heck of an upgauge if it sticks. I'd assume the biggest thing ever operated by either airline on that route would be an A320 or 727 by NW.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
flyinryan99
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:43 pm

I guess it's better than passenger traffic falling :scratchchin:

Passenger travel through Toledo Express Airport increased for a seventh straight year during 2019 by 1.69 percent, according to year-end statistics released Wednesday by the Toledo-Lucas County Port Authority.

The increase was driven by higher traffic on Allegiant Air and a bump-up in charter flights, while business on American Eagle’s two Toledo routes dipped slightly.

“The past seven years of continued growth proves there is a market for air travel in northwest Ohio,” Thomas Winston, the port authority’s president and chief executive, said in a statement announcing the year-to-year figures. “Year after year, more residents continue to choose their local airport over others. The more we utilize the flights we have, the more airlines will continue to look at the Toledo market as a real contender to add new air service.”

American Eagle had the highest total passengers at Toledo Express, 131,267, during the year. It flies three daily roundtrips between Toledo and Chicago and two between Toledo and Charlotte.

Late in the year, however, it replaced 63-seat aircraft with 50-seat planes on one of the two Charlotte schedules. The year-end passenger total was 946 fewer than in 2018.

Allegiant flew 111,888 Toledo travelers to or from four Florida airports during 2019, a 4.27 percent increase over 2018.

That included 5,141 passengers on a new, seasonal Destin-Fort Walton Beach route that flew twice weekly between June 7 and Aug. 12. But while the new route ran nearly 70 percent full, it wasn’t enough for Allegiant, which said in December it would not resume the Destin flights in 2020.
 
CMHtraveler
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:31 am

DeltaRules wrote:
flyCMH wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Appears that CMH-DTW RON is an A321 for the summer. That was awfully fast considering the route had been plagued with RJ's for a long time.


Wow, good catch! Summer schedules are still subject to change, but hopefully that upgauge remains.


Boy, that's a heck of an upgauge if it sticks. I'd assume the biggest thing ever operated by either airline on that route would be an A320 or 727 by NW.


I wonder if DL are making a concerted effort to route more CMH connecting pax through DTW as opposed to other hubs? That would explain the RON aircraft seeing the upguage (early flight to catch first set of connections). I can’t imagine there would be enough natural growth in a matter of a few months to go CRJ>B717>A321 on the route.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:54 am

CMHtraveler wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
flyCMH wrote:

Wow, good catch! Summer schedules are still subject to change, but hopefully that upgauge remains.


Boy, that's a heck of an upgauge if it sticks. I'd assume the biggest thing ever operated by either airline on that route would be an A320 or 727 by NW.


I wonder if DL are making a concerted effort to route more CMH connecting pax through DTW as opposed to other hubs? That would explain the RON aircraft seeing the upguage (early flight to catch first set of connections). I can’t imagine there would be enough natural growth in a matter of a few months to go CRJ>B717>A321 on the route.


Two broadly different markets, obviously, but I know they do this at DAB- the RON is almost always the flight which gets upgauged to a 738/739/321/757.

Using July 1st, here are the RON mainline aircraft (subject to change, but what they're advertising now):
ATL- 739, 739, M88
DTW- 321
MSP- 738
SLC- 319

Slightly unrelated, but LAX is a redeye and gate utilization will be interesting given I think that flight arrives before any of the above leave; 48, 49, 50, 51, 54, 55, and 56 can all handle mainline, but AS will have 49 tied up with the second SEA flight.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
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AirportRival
Posts: 399
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:19 am

The Business Courier had an article today talking about how CVG hit it's goal of 9 million pax by 2021 early. Some interesting numbers from the article are below. The increase and decrease stated is from YoY.

Enplaned passengers by airline 2019

Delta: 2,067,260, an increase of 7.6%
American: 641,450, an increase of 11.4%
Allegiant: 525,803, a decrease of 3.1%
United: 499,664, an increase of 1.7%
Frontier: 458,337, a decrease of 14.5%
Southwest: 303,042, an increase of 3.6%
Air Canada: 32,471, an increase of 1%

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... ecord.html
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 5042
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:34 pm

I'm playing with AS' site to see if anything had changed with the 2x daily CMH-SEA (both are still 739s) and it's interesting to see AS offers itineraries with double connections to PAE via...

Option 3
Alaska 1199 CMH 8:00 am SEA 10:10 am
Alaska 1430 SEA 11:35 am LAS 2:09 pm
Alaska 2121 LAS 3:00 pm PAE 5:40 pm

I'm up for an adventure, but flying into PAE with stopovers at an airport 40 miles away (SEA) and LAS is a bit too eccentric for my blood. :lol:
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
atbPy
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:46 pm

flymco753 wrote:
Appears that CMH-DTW RON is an A321 for the summer. That was awfully fast considering the route had been plagued with RJ's for a long time.


That’s got to be one of the shortest A321 routes around! Will be nice to see this though love the A321!
 
Springs1816
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:48 pm

AirportRival wrote:
The Business Courier had an article today talking about how CVG hit it's goal of 9 million pax by 2021 early. Some interesting numbers from the article are below. The increase and decrease stated is from YoY.

Enplaned passengers by airline 2019

Delta: 2,067,260, an increase of 7.6%
American: 641,450, an increase of 11.4%
Allegiant: 525,803, a decrease of 3.1%
United: 499,664, an increase of 1.7%
Frontier: 458,337, a decrease of 14.5%
Southwest: 303,042, an increase of 3.6%
Air Canada: 32,471, an increase of 1%

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... ecord.html


Hopefully DL keeps the strong push into 2020. Surprised Allegiant actually decreased. Will 2020 go back up for them? No surprise with Frontier unfortunately. They have a bunch of planes coming in over the next few years so I could see them increase again but it doesn't look like this year will be the year. Overall congrats to CVG.
 
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flymco753
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:17 pm

atbPy wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Appears that CMH-DTW RON is an A321 for the summer. That was awfully fast considering the route had been plagued with RJ's for a long time.


That’s got to be one of the shortest A321 routes around! Will be nice to see this though love the A321!
It might be during this time frame. GRR used to be on an A321 but has switched to the 739.
...the carriage of liquids, gels, and aerosols are prohibited through the screening checkpoint except for travel size toiletries of 3 ounces or less...
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 144
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:36 am

2019 Numbers are out for CMH and LCK:

- CMH up 6.1% over 2018 (8.6m pax), breaking last year’s record total.
- LCK up 0.5% over 2018 (308k pax), also a record year.
- Hard not to notice AS’ exceptional 92% LF even in historically weak December. No wonder they’re adding a second CMH-SEA frequency!

Interestingly, one of the resolutions proposed for the CRAA board to vote on is authorization to renegotiate Nardone’s employment contract (citing his performance and the desire of the board to retain his services) - even though his current contract doesn’t expire until 2022. I expect this implies Mr. Nardone will see a nice raise. Also included in the packet is a summary of 2019 accomplishments, something I don’t recall seeing in years past.

https://columbusairports.com/storage/pr ... 8-2020.pdf
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:26 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
2019 Numbers are out for CMH and LCK:

- CMH up 6.1% over 2018 (8.6m pax), breaking last year’s record total.
- LCK up 0.5% over 2018 (308k pax), also a record year.
- Hard not to notice AS’ exceptional 92% LF even in historically weak December. No wonder they’re adding a second CMH-SEA frequency!

Interestingly, one of the resolutions proposed for the CRAA board to vote on is authorization to renegotiate Nardone’s employment contract (citing his performance and the desire of the board to retain his services) - even though his current contract doesn’t expire until 2022. I expect this implies Mr. Nardone will see a nice raise. Also included in the packet is a summary of 2019 accomplishments, something I don’t recall seeing in years past.

https://columbusairports.com/storage/pr ... 8-2020.pdf


92% for AS in December is stunning. Nardone's made more gains in the last couple years than at any time I can remember and has earned more incentive to keep building.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
CMHtraveler
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:26 pm

NK’s recent schedule extension includes 3x weekly CMH-MSY service all the way through early September (which is as far as the window is extended). Their seasonal service oddly compliments WN’s 1x weekly seasonal CMH-MSY service which ends in March just before NK’s seasonal service begins. Does anyone remember whether NK’s service went all the way into fall last year or whether this is a new development? Happy to see MSY service getting close to year-round and hope to see it daily on NK or WN someday!
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:01 am

CMHtraveler wrote:
NK’s recent schedule extension includes 3x weekly CMH-MSY service all the way through early September (which is as far as the window is extended). Their seasonal service oddly compliments WN’s 1x weekly seasonal CMH-MSY service which ends in March just before NK’s seasonal service begins. Does anyone remember whether NK’s service went all the way into fall last year or whether this is a new development? Happy to see MSY service getting close to year-round and hope to see it daily on NK or WN someday!


I know there was a very brief overlap in Spring 2019 of all seven destinations being served at the same time (before TPA/RSW ended for the season), but I don't remember when MSY ended last Fall. I seem to remember the original plan having a scenario where only MCO, FLL, and LAS were offered for a couple weeks before the Florida seasonals came back.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
Moonship
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:15 am

CMHtraveler wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Here's the RFP for new jetbridges at CMH and LCK from a couple years ago, the most interesting bit being Page 21 (of the PDF), which lists the aircraft which are meant to "fit" at each gate (A1 and B36 are excluded): https://columbusairports.com/storage/pr ... -final.pdf

...and here's CMH's Competition Plan, which includes diagrams for parking positions at the airport (Page 5): https://columbusairports.com/storage/pr ... signed.pdf . The amount of space in the yellow shaded area (go figure, the only non-transparent one on the sheet) seems to be big enough for two airplanes.


Thank you, the second document appears to answer the question (despite the odd non-transparency). It seems NK does in fact lease both parking spots at B35. Whether they actually use the jetbridge to board passengers at both, or just store a frame at the other spot and tow it over for boarding I’m not sure.
Flew out of 35A this week and yes the bridge made it over to the AC on the RON 35A spot.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:13 am

Moonship wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Here's the RFP for new jetbridges at CMH and LCK from a couple years ago, the most interesting bit being Page 21 (of the PDF), which lists the aircraft which are meant to "fit" at each gate (A1 and B36 are excluded): https://columbusairports.com/storage/pr ... -final.pdf

...and here's CMH's Competition Plan, which includes diagrams for parking positions at the airport (Page 5): https://columbusairports.com/storage/pr ... signed.pdf . The amount of space in the yellow shaded area (go figure, the only non-transparent one on the sheet) seems to be big enough for two airplanes.


Thank you, the second document appears to answer the question (despite the odd non-transparency). It seems NK does in fact lease both parking spots at B35. Whether they actually use the jetbridge to board passengers at both, or just store a frame at the other spot and tow it over for boarding I’m not sure.
Flew out of 35A this week and yes the bridge made it over to the AC on the RON 35A spot.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Interesting- thanks for the confirmation!
 
CMHMarc787
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:09 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:53 pm

I've never understood why B30 CMH has no jetbridge, making AC pax walk to their aircraft...even though it appears as if there's enough clearance between B29 and B31 to allow for one. Could someone enlighten me, please?
 
flyCMH
Posts: 2295
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 1999 12:15 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:56 pm

I'm pretty sure B30 was always a stairwell. Before the current numbering system, it was B11A. Before that, it wasn't even numbered. I believe Air Canada either prefers not to utilize a bridge (hold over from the Dash operating days and less cost) or they are muscled out of being able to use one due to being surrounded by UA's gates.
 
DeltaRules
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Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:10 pm

flyCMH wrote:
I'm pretty sure B30 was always a stairwell. Before the current numbering system, it was B11A. Before that, it wasn't even numbered. I believe Air Canada either prefers not to utilize a bridge (hold over from the Dash operating days and less cost) or they are muscled out of being able to use one due to being surrounded by UA's gates.


I've often wondered if this is why there's no B27. I seem to remember as a kid coming up a flight of stairs after a flight on an Eagle J31 which emptied into the hallway between B34 and B36 which could conceivably be in that general area (with an aircraft parked next to B25).
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
flyCMH
Posts: 2295
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 1999 12:15 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:18 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
flyCMH wrote:
I'm pretty sure B30 was always a stairwell. Before the current numbering system, it was B11A. Before that, it wasn't even numbered. I believe Air Canada either prefers not to utilize a bridge (hold over from the Dash operating days and less cost) or they are muscled out of being able to use one due to being surrounded by UA's gates.


I've often wondered if this is why there's no B27. I seem to remember as a kid coming up a flight of stairs after a flight on an Eagle J31 which emptied into the hallway between B34 and B36.


Not sure why the revised numbering system did not include a gate B27. There is/was another stairwell by what is currently B34, but I believe it went by another number. I recall also utilizing it while deplaning, but on an Eagle ATR-42. It was also used by Midway (Corporate Express) J31s for a while in the mid-90s.
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:17 pm

flyinryan99 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
Will TOL get any flights going further west then ORD, or will FWA continue to poach more and more people from their catchment area?

First, FWA poaches very little from TOL - maybe some Allegiant traffic from the western catchment area - DTW takes a vast majority of it. Although, CLE seems to be taking more lately. As for going west, only option that has been talked about is DFW, but that has really tapered lately with AA having seen their CLT loads drop dramatically when they brought in CR7s. Of course, the 0500 flight killed a majority of that traffic.

avtcle wrote:
TOL is small but growing. Allegiant, though cutting VPS, is adding frequencies to all of its existing routes heading into summer 2020. Its an interesting little airport and I hope it keeps growing. I’d like to see Allegiant try a few different routes out of there. FLL, SRQ, PBI? There seems to be some low cost leisure demand out there.

I certainly hope the best for them. TOL has seen relatively impressive growth while being unfortunately positioned so close to FWA & DTW.


SRQ would probably be the only other logical candidate from Allegiant. The west side of Florida is where everyone from this area tends to gravitate towards. FLL and PBI are already covered with Delta and Spirit and Allegiant shies away from both of them in this market.

crjflyboy wrote:
TOL should offer free parking ... they can not possibly be making any money with 15 cars in their lot


No, this is their only real revenue generator for the airline terminal operation. They do not have tax revenue to fund anything other than the salaries of employees. I've argued they should increase the daily rate to $10 a day and make it like a maximum of $60 a week. This, in theory, with the higher concentration of business fliers out of TOL should raise revenues a bit more. I think even the offsite DTW parking sites are now over $10 a day too...

flyCMH wrote:
In 2020, it would be nice to see G4 take another crack at a new destination from TOL. Given the success of PIE and PGD, maybe a seasonal route to SRQ could work. I would love to see TOL-FLL, but the competition from DTW must be quite fierce. A route to AZA or LAS from TOL would be quite the coup. On the plus side with an all-Airbus fleet, the route is far more feasible that when the maddogs ruled the skies. However the stage length and competition from DTW are tough roadblocks.

American's schedule appears unchanged so far going into April 2020 with 3x to ORD and 2x to CLT, all on ER4s. It would be nice to see some larger RJs come back for the summer to either or both routes. A 4th frequency to ORD also wouldn't be out of the question. Of course, the addition of DFW back to the route map out of TOL would be phenomenal.

The addition of a 3rd airline to TOL would be an incredible accomplishment as well. While I'm not sure of the feasibility of a new carrier, potential candidates could be:

UA: they have been somewhat tit-for-tat with AA out of ORD in recent years. It would be an opportunity for United to tie things up a bit and tap the most solid city pair from Toledo. Though personally, I would love to see a flight to DEN. United has the regional fleet to make a flight work, and it would open up many new connection opportunities from TOL.

DL: while solidly entrenched in DTW, a 3x daily schedule to ATL mirroring FNT shouldn't be such a monumental task. Understood that the market dynamics in FNT are very different from TOL, particularly that the more affluent metro Detroit suburbs are more convenient to FNT, however TOL should be able to hold its own to the world's largest single-airline hub.

Everyone else: not sure what if any other airlines could potentially enter the TOL market. Spirit could potentially tackle some high density routes such as MCO and RSW, duplicating service at DTW and creating a scenario similar to CLE/CAK and PIT/LBE, but it would likely come at the expense of G4. The same would likely be said of a Frontier entry into the market. Sun Country could be a dark horse candidate to fly weekly service to MSP and vacation destinations from TOL. Alaska and jetBlue are not conversational non-starters, though Moxy could be worth pursuing depending on their yet-to-be-determined route strategy.

All in all, 2020 should be a year of neutral to slight growth at TOL, though the potential does exist for additional service to keep the passenger growth momentum going. Here's hoping for the best.


Great to hear from ya flyCMH! You hit some good points here and have pretty accurate understanding of what's going on here. :)

2020 is going to face some pretty stiff headwinds for TOL. First, the main guy who was leading charge for building and developing commercial air service left at the end of last month to take the air service development job at PIT. This has left no one in charge of trying to sell TOL or the area to airlines or hell any aviation company. I've been told the Port is hiring or increasing the responsibilities of their consultant but I can't even figure out who that is. Quite honestly, being involved (and trying to get more involved) over the past 10 years, I have no confidence things are going to improve. There's not much of a desire for the place from the BOD and there is really little aviation experience leading there and the experience they had there has now left. 2020 Capacity is so far looking flat over 2019, although this spring on Allegiant seems a bit better offset by 50 seaters on AA to CLT.

OK, off my soap box and looking towards opportunities. First, I'm not a fan of how Allegiant has looked at TOL. TOL seems to get, for the most part, the leftovers when scheduling. I really blame them for the reasons why MYR and VPS failed. They were both Mondays and Fridays and VPS had flights that departed out of TOL at like 10:00pm. If they wanted to make things work, more of a Wednesday/Saturday or Thursday/Sunday schedule would be much better. Even look at the summer schedule for SFB - they added more capacity, but it's Monday, Wednesday, Friday....VPS is actually a very popular place to vacation from in this area, but major complaints about the flight times that really doomed it. Their opportunities they could fly are LAS, AZA, BNA, SAV, and SRQ. LAS / AZA both have a ton of traffic from the area and actually perform really well out of DTW (at least I've been told) but they are still gun shy on going up against DTW. BNA and SAV don't have NK but healthy traffic flows. SRQ is located on the west side of Florida and would compliment PGD and PIE which flip flop between the top revenue performer out of TOL.

For American, I would really like to see them fortify their current routes before going to DFW, even though I think DFW would be a good fit here. I would like to see a mid afternoon departure to ORD (2:00pm time frame) and I would like to see an evening departure to CLT. Both of these I would like to see them start out on a 4x weekly basis (Sunday/Monday/Thursday/Friday). Incremental increases during the peak times would alleviate empty seats on the days that business travelers aren't traveling. I would love to see DFW on a 2x basis with CR7s (not just personally as work has taken me down there quite a bit lately), as I know business ties down that direction and passenger flows should keep it sustainable. I just don't know if they would be able to keep the F cabin full. Every time I flew a CLT flight, they only had a seat or two open...but then again I was complimentary upgraded too as a lowly Gold. Of course to fill all of this - AA has to price match DTW which they are very inconsistent at doing. Much the reason why AA has a year of full airplanes followed by a year of empty ones...

Something must have happened 30+ years ago when United up and left TOL. They have had no desire to come back to this airport at all. Quite honestly, a lot of their hubs make sense for traffic flows of this area and business ties including both DEN and IAH (even though DAY is losing IAH - wonder if they lost the Marathon contract?). DEN has always been a big destination from here. I would like to see them try 2x ORD and 2x IAD to test the waters here. This would give them good directional flows and give some potential international connections from here. I would really like to see them try DEN instead of ORD, but let's face it, they wouldn't overfly ORD just jumping into this market.

Delta, I don't think will be back as they can easily funnel all of their skymilers through DTW. Volume would be there to sustain ATL at 3x CR7s (or even 2x) but others on here have proclaimed Delta never made money at TOL, so I would just say we won't see them back unless a ULCC runs 3x daily A320s to ATL....(not gonna happen)

The only airline I would really want to hitch my wagon to is Sun Country. They wouldn't be already established in DTW and could easily run (operationally) weekly flights from RSW(2x), MCO(3x), MIA(2x). Run the planes MSP-XXX-TOL-XXX-MSP and overnight crews here. Get the Port to cover the overnight cost which I think could be covered by the increase in passenger revenue. Other then that, I don't see much hope for this area. Slow and steady growth would be nice, but it's been pulling teeth from both the airlines and buy in from the BOD to invest in anything for the airport...So what you see is what you get, not much will change, in my opinion...


You don't know how much the market has changed since US 24 was completely widened to a 4 lane highway from TOL to FWA ... It took several years to build it, but since it was finished it has managed to poach enough traffic away from TOL to the advantage of FWA.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/us2 ... fault.aspx

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/ODOT%20Maps/luc.jpg

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/ODOT%20Maps/hen.jpg

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/ODOT%20Maps/def.jpg

What used to take 90 minutes driving on mostly a two lane dangerous road has now resulted in a 50 - 55 minute smooth drive from Toledo to Ft. Wayne. An actual faster drive from the biz parks and wealthy south Toledo burbs of Maumee and Perrysburg than it is to DTW.

https://www.fwbusiness.com/fwbusiness/a ... b730c.html

I read where the airport director at FWA has said 40 % of the vehicles in the parking lot are now from Ohio, 10 % from the north in Michigan.

I would watch for FWA to get service to DIA this year, pulling more potential passengers away from TOL.

Until TOL offers free parking ... they are dead in the water... a subject they refuse to even consider despite the parking lot being 90 - 95 % empty.
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:25 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
flyCMH wrote:
flymco753 wrote:
Appears that CMH-DTW RON is an A321 for the summer. That was awfully fast considering the route had been plagued with RJ's for a long time.


Wow, good catch! Summer schedules are still subject to change, but hopefully that upgauge remains.


Boy, that's a heck of an upgauge if it sticks. I'd assume the biggest thing ever operated by either airline on that route would be an A320 or 727 by NW.


I flew 727 - 200 series on the route many times when connecting at DTW ... A definite huge upgrade in size of aircraft... is the 321 on to another city ... thru service .. Portland ?
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:06 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
flyinryan99 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
Will TOL get any flights going further west then ORD, or will FWA continue to poach more and more people from their catchment area?

First, FWA poaches very little from TOL - maybe some Allegiant traffic from the western catchment area - DTW takes a vast majority of it. Although, CLE seems to be taking more lately. As for going west, only option that has been talked about is DFW, but that has really tapered lately with AA having seen their CLT loads drop dramatically when they brought in CR7s. Of course, the 0500 flight killed a majority of that traffic.

avtcle wrote:
TOL is small but growing. Allegiant, though cutting VPS, is adding frequencies to all of its existing routes heading into summer 2020. Its an interesting little airport and I hope it keeps growing. I’d like to see Allegiant try a few different routes out of there. FLL, SRQ, PBI? There seems to be some low cost leisure demand out there.

I certainly hope the best for them. TOL has seen relatively impressive growth while being unfortunately positioned so close to FWA & DTW.


SRQ would probably be the only other logical candidate from Allegiant. The west side of Florida is where everyone from this area tends to gravitate towards. FLL and PBI are already covered with Delta and Spirit and Allegiant shies away from both of them in this market.

crjflyboy wrote:
TOL should offer free parking ... they can not possibly be making any money with 15 cars in their lot


No, this is their only real revenue generator for the airline terminal operation. They do not have tax revenue to fund anything other than the salaries of employees. I've argued they should increase the daily rate to $10 a day and make it like a maximum of $60 a week. This, in theory, with the higher concentration of business fliers out of TOL should raise revenues a bit more. I think even the offsite DTW parking sites are now over $10 a day too...

flyCMH wrote:
In 2020, it would be nice to see G4 take another crack at a new destination from TOL. Given the success of PIE and PGD, maybe a seasonal route to SRQ could work. I would love to see TOL-FLL, but the competition from DTW must be quite fierce. A route to AZA or LAS from TOL would be quite the coup. On the plus side with an all-Airbus fleet, the route is far more feasible that when the maddogs ruled the skies. However the stage length and competition from DTW are tough roadblocks.

American's schedule appears unchanged so far going into April 2020 with 3x to ORD and 2x to CLT, all on ER4s. It would be nice to see some larger RJs come back for the summer to either or both routes. A 4th frequency to ORD also wouldn't be out of the question. Of course, the addition of DFW back to the route map out of TOL would be phenomenal.

The addition of a 3rd airline to TOL would be an incredible accomplishment as well. While I'm not sure of the feasibility of a new carrier, potential candidates could be:

UA: they have been somewhat tit-for-tat with AA out of ORD in recent years. It would be an opportunity for United to tie things up a bit and tap the most solid city pair from Toledo. Though personally, I would love to see a flight to DEN. United has the regional fleet to make a flight work, and it would open up many new connection opportunities from TOL.

DL: while solidly entrenched in DTW, a 3x daily schedule to ATL mirroring FNT shouldn't be such a monumental task. Understood that the market dynamics in FNT are very different from TOL, particularly that the more affluent metro Detroit suburbs are more convenient to FNT, however TOL should be able to hold its own to the world's largest single-airline hub.

Everyone else: not sure what if any other airlines could potentially enter the TOL market. Spirit could potentially tackle some high density routes such as MCO and RSW, duplicating service at DTW and creating a scenario similar to CLE/CAK and PIT/LBE, but it would likely come at the expense of G4. The same would likely be said of a Frontier entry into the market. Sun Country could be a dark horse candidate to fly weekly service to MSP and vacation destinations from TOL. Alaska and jetBlue are not conversational non-starters, though Moxy could be worth pursuing depending on their yet-to-be-determined route strategy.

All in all, 2020 should be a year of neutral to slight growth at TOL, though the potential does exist for additional service to keep the passenger growth momentum going. Here's hoping for the best.


Great to hear from ya flyCMH! You hit some good points here and have pretty accurate understanding of what's going on here. :)

2020 is going to face some pretty stiff headwinds for TOL. First, the main guy who was leading charge for building and developing commercial air service left at the end of last month to take the air service development job at PIT. This has left no one in charge of trying to sell TOL or the area to airlines or hell any aviation company. I've been told the Port is hiring or increasing the responsibilities of their consultant but I can't even figure out who that is. Quite honestly, being involved (and trying to get more involved) over the past 10 years, I have no confidence things are going to improve. There's not much of a desire for the place from the BOD and there is really little aviation experience leading there and the experience they had there has now left. 2020 Capacity is so far looking flat over 2019, although this spring on Allegiant seems a bit better offset by 50 seaters on AA to CLT.

OK, off my soap box and looking towards opportunities. First, I'm not a fan of how Allegiant has looked at TOL. TOL seems to get, for the most part, the leftovers when scheduling. I really blame them for the reasons why MYR and VPS failed. They were both Mondays and Fridays and VPS had flights that departed out of TOL at like 10:00pm. If they wanted to make things work, more of a Wednesday/Saturday or Thursday/Sunday schedule would be much better. Even look at the summer schedule for SFB - they added more capacity, but it's Monday, Wednesday, Friday....VPS is actually a very popular place to vacation from in this area, but major complaints about the flight times that really doomed it. Their opportunities they could fly are LAS, AZA, BNA, SAV, and SRQ. LAS / AZA both have a ton of traffic from the area and actually perform really well out of DTW (at least I've been told) but they are still gun shy on going up against DTW. BNA and SAV don't have NK but healthy traffic flows. SRQ is located on the west side of Florida and would compliment PGD and PIE which flip flop between the top revenue performer out of TOL.

For American, I would really like to see them fortify their current routes before going to DFW, even though I think DFW would be a good fit here. I would like to see a mid afternoon departure to ORD (2:00pm time frame) and I would like to see an evening departure to CLT. Both of these I would like to see them start out on a 4x weekly basis (Sunday/Monday/Thursday/Friday). Incremental increases during the peak times would alleviate empty seats on the days that business travelers aren't traveling. I would love to see DFW on a 2x basis with CR7s (not just personally as work has taken me down there quite a bit lately), as I know business ties down that direction and passenger flows should keep it sustainable. I just don't know if they would be able to keep the F cabin full. Every time I flew a CLT flight, they only had a seat or two open...but then again I was complimentary upgraded too as a lowly Gold. Of course to fill all of this - AA has to price match DTW which they are very inconsistent at doing. Much the reason why AA has a year of full airplanes followed by a year of empty ones...

Something must have happened 30+ years ago when United up and left TOL. They have had no desire to come back to this airport at all. Quite honestly, a lot of their hubs make sense for traffic flows of this area and business ties including both DEN and IAH (even though DAY is losing IAH - wonder if they lost the Marathon contract?). DEN has always been a big destination from here. I would like to see them try 2x ORD and 2x IAD to test the waters here. This would give them good directional flows and give some potential international connections from here. I would really like to see them try DEN instead of ORD, but let's face it, they wouldn't overfly ORD just jumping into this market.

Delta, I don't think will be back as they can easily funnel all of their skymilers through DTW. Volume would be there to sustain ATL at 3x CR7s (or even 2x) but others on here have proclaimed Delta never made money at TOL, so I would just say we won't see them back unless a ULCC runs 3x daily A320s to ATL....(not gonna happen)

The only airline I would really want to hitch my wagon to is Sun Country. They wouldn't be already established in DTW and could easily run (operationally) weekly flights from RSW(2x), MCO(3x), MIA(2x). Run the planes MSP-XXX-TOL-XXX-MSP and overnight crews here. Get the Port to cover the overnight cost which I think could be covered by the increase in passenger revenue. Other then that, I don't see much hope for this area. Slow and steady growth would be nice, but it's been pulling teeth from both the airlines and buy in from the BOD to invest in anything for the airport...So what you see is what you get, not much will change, in my opinion...


You don't know how much the market has changed since US 24 was completely widened to a 4 lane highway from TOL to FWA ... It took several years to build it, but since it was finished it has managed to poach enough traffic away from TOL to the advantage of FWA.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/us2 ... fault.aspx

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/ODOT%20Maps/luc.jpg

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/ODOT%20Maps/hen.jpg

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/ODOT%20Maps/def.jpg

What used to take 90 minutes driving on mostly a two lane dangerous road has now resulted in a 50 - 55 minute smooth drive from Toledo to Ft. Wayne. An actual faster drive from the biz parks and wealthy south Toledo burbs of Maumee and Perrysburg than it is to DTW.

https://www.fwbusiness.com/fwbusiness/a ... b730c.html

I read where the airport director at FWA has said 40 % of the vehicles in the parking lot are now from Ohio, 10 % from the north in Michigan.

I would watch for FWA to get service to DIA this year, pulling more potential passengers away from TOL.

Until TOL offers free parking ... they are dead in the water... a subject they refuse to even consider despite the parking lot being 90 - 95 % empty.


I've been involved with TOL for over 20 years now...I think I know how the market has changed since they widened 24 from Toledo to Fort Wayne. And that number is a small gain for FWA and that is mostly because of the lack of carriers at TOL which choose to serve the market out of DTW. You may be getting a couple of cost conscious travelers that will drive from Lucas County to FWA, but 99% of them would choose DTW over FWA. Just looked at Google maps...says it's 1:39 from Perrysburg to FWA...I don't know how fast you drive, but even on a good day going over the speed limit, it's still faster to get to DTW from Perrysburg. I would bet more people from those communities drive to CLE than FWA...

Good for FWA, they would be getting DEN it's because of the FWA market, not pulling from TOL, other than some potential western counties of Ohio.

Free parking is way overrated as only the extremely cost conscious may calculate that in. At $8.00/day, it's less than even the offsite parking at DTW. I've advocated they need to raise the parking to $10/day and make the max $50 or $60 a week. Reason being is that parking generates the most revenue for the airport. Unlike FWA, TOL doesn't receive taxpayer funds to operate the airport. They may use taxpayer funds to pay the employees but all projects are funded by the airport revenues and federal dollars. Big advantage to FWA as they have steady revenue streams.

TOL is what it is. It's not dead in the water - it serves it's purpose here and will continue to do so in the future. American will serve the business and some leisure community and Allegiant will serve the leisure community. It's never going to compete with DTW for passengers, so it must coexist. There are opportunities for improvement but it will be slow and steady which is just fine. Not sure where you reside or how little you've been involved here, but your comments are a little off base. I've been around through the ups and the downs to have some kind of idea what the market tendencies are....
 
tys777
Moderator
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:43 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:18 pm

flyinryan99 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
flyinryan99 wrote:
First, FWA poaches very little from TOL - maybe some Allegiant traffic from the western catchment area - DTW takes a vast majority of it. Although, CLE seems to be taking more lately. As for going west, only option that has been talked about is DFW, but that has really tapered lately with AA having seen their CLT loads drop dramatically when they brought in CR7s. Of course, the 0500 flight killed a majority of that traffic.



SRQ would probably be the only other logical candidate from Allegiant. The west side of Florida is where everyone from this area tends to gravitate towards. FLL and PBI are already covered with Delta and Spirit and Allegiant shies away from both of them in this market.



No, this is their only real revenue generator for the airline terminal operation. They do not have tax revenue to fund anything other than the salaries of employees. I've argued they should increase the daily rate to $10 a day and make it like a maximum of $60 a week. This, in theory, with the higher concentration of business fliers out of TOL should raise revenues a bit more. I think even the offsite DTW parking sites are now over $10 a day too...



Great to hear from ya flyCMH! You hit some good points here and have pretty accurate understanding of what's going on here. :)

2020 is going to face some pretty stiff headwinds for TOL. First, the main guy who was leading charge for building and developing commercial air service left at the end of last month to take the air service development job at PIT. This has left no one in charge of trying to sell TOL or the area to airlines or hell any aviation company. I've been told the Port is hiring or increasing the responsibilities of their consultant but I can't even figure out who that is. Quite honestly, being involved (and trying to get more involved) over the past 10 years, I have no confidence things are going to improve. There's not much of a desire for the place from the BOD and there is really little aviation experience leading there and the experience they had there has now left. 2020 Capacity is so far looking flat over 2019, although this spring on Allegiant seems a bit better offset by 50 seaters on AA to CLT.

OK, off my soap box and looking towards opportunities. First, I'm not a fan of how Allegiant has looked at TOL. TOL seems to get, for the most part, the leftovers when scheduling. I really blame them for the reasons why MYR and VPS failed. They were both Mondays and Fridays and VPS had flights that departed out of TOL at like 10:00pm. If they wanted to make things work, more of a Wednesday/Saturday or Thursday/Sunday schedule would be much better. Even look at the summer schedule for SFB - they added more capacity, but it's Monday, Wednesday, Friday....VPS is actually a very popular place to vacation from in this area, but major complaints about the flight times that really doomed it. Their opportunities they could fly are LAS, AZA, BNA, SAV, and SRQ. LAS / AZA both have a ton of traffic from the area and actually perform really well out of DTW (at least I've been told) but they are still gun shy on going up against DTW. BNA and SAV don't have NK but healthy traffic flows. SRQ is located on the west side of Florida and would compliment PGD and PIE which flip flop between the top revenue performer out of TOL.

For American, I would really like to see them fortify their current routes before going to DFW, even though I think DFW would be a good fit here. I would like to see a mid afternoon departure to ORD (2:00pm time frame) and I would like to see an evening departure to CLT. Both of these I would like to see them start out on a 4x weekly basis (Sunday/Monday/Thursday/Friday). Incremental increases during the peak times would alleviate empty seats on the days that business travelers aren't traveling. I would love to see DFW on a 2x basis with CR7s (not just personally as work has taken me down there quite a bit lately), as I know business ties down that direction and passenger flows should keep it sustainable. I just don't know if they would be able to keep the F cabin full. Every time I flew a CLT flight, they only had a seat or two open...but then again I was complimentary upgraded too as a lowly Gold. Of course to fill all of this - AA has to price match DTW which they are very inconsistent at doing. Much the reason why AA has a year of full airplanes followed by a year of empty ones...

Something must have happened 30+ years ago when United up and left TOL. They have had no desire to come back to this airport at all. Quite honestly, a lot of their hubs make sense for traffic flows of this area and business ties including both DEN and IAH (even though DAY is losing IAH - wonder if they lost the Marathon contract?). DEN has always been a big destination from here. I would like to see them try 2x ORD and 2x IAD to test the waters here. This would give them good directional flows and give some potential international connections from here. I would really like to see them try DEN instead of ORD, but let's face it, they wouldn't overfly ORD just jumping into this market.

Delta, I don't think will be back as they can easily funnel all of their skymilers through DTW. Volume would be there to sustain ATL at 3x CR7s (or even 2x) but others on here have proclaimed Delta never made money at TOL, so I would just say we won't see them back unless a ULCC runs 3x daily A320s to ATL....(not gonna happen)

The only airline I would really want to hitch my wagon to is Sun Country. They wouldn't be already established in DTW and could easily run (operationally) weekly flights from RSW(2x), MCO(3x), MIA(2x). Run the planes MSP-XXX-TOL-XXX-MSP and overnight crews here. Get the Port to cover the overnight cost which I think could be covered by the increase in passenger revenue. Other then that, I don't see much hope for this area. Slow and steady growth would be nice, but it's been pulling teeth from both the airlines and buy in from the BOD to invest in anything for the airport...So what you see is what you get, not much will change, in my opinion...


You don't know how much the market has changed since US 24 was completely widened to a 4 lane highway from TOL to FWA ... It took several years to build it, but since it was finished it has managed to poach enough traffic away from TOL to the advantage of FWA.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/projects/us2 ... fault.aspx

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/ODOT%20Maps/luc.jpg

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/ODOT%20Maps/hen.jpg

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/maps/ODOT%20Maps/def.jpg

What used to take 90 minutes driving on mostly a two lane dangerous road has now resulted in a 50 - 55 minute smooth drive from Toledo to Ft. Wayne. An actual faster drive from the biz parks and wealthy south Toledo burbs of Maumee and Perrysburg than it is to DTW.

https://www.fwbusiness.com/fwbusiness/a ... b730c.html

I read where the airport director at FWA has said 40 % of the vehicles in the parking lot are now from Ohio, 10 % from the north in Michigan.

I would watch for FWA to get service to DIA this year, pulling more potential passengers away from TOL.

Until TOL offers free parking ... they are dead in the water... a subject they refuse to even consider despite the parking lot being 90 - 95 % empty.


I've been involved with TOL for over 20 years now...I think I know how the market has changed since they widened 24 from Toledo to Fort Wayne. And that number is a small gain for FWA and that is mostly because of the lack of carriers at TOL which choose to serve the market out of DTW. You may be getting a couple of cost conscious travelers that will drive from Lucas County to FWA, but 99% of them would choose DTW over FWA. Just looked at Google maps...says it's 1:39 from Perrysburg to FWA...I don't know how fast you drive, but even on a good day going over the speed limit, it's still faster to get to DTW from Perrysburg. I would bet more people from those communities drive to CLE than FWA...

Good for FWA, they would be getting DEN it's because of the FWA market, not pulling from TOL, other than some potential western counties of Ohio.

Free parking is way overrated as only the extremely cost conscious may calculate that in. At $8.00/day, it's less than even the offsite parking at DTW. I've advocated they need to raise the parking to $10/day and make the max $50 or $60 a week. Reason being is that parking generates the most revenue for the airport. Unlike FWA, TOL doesn't receive taxpayer funds to operate the airport. They may use taxpayer funds to pay the employees but all projects are funded by the airport revenues and federal dollars. Big advantage to FWA as they have steady revenue streams.

TOL is what it is. It's not dead in the water - it serves it's purpose here and will continue to do so in the future. American will serve the business and some leisure community and Allegiant will serve the leisure community. It's never going to compete with DTW for passengers, so it must coexist. There are opportunities for improvement but it will be slow and steady which is just fine. Not sure where you reside or how little you've been involved here, but your comments are a little off base. I've been around through the ups and the downs to have some kind of idea what the market tendencies are....


Lived in Perrysburg for 20 years, and talked to some of my friends about this one. They laughed at the idea of driving to FWA for flights. They'd rather fly out of DTW where they have more options especially in IRROPS.

I agree that free parking is an item that plays a huge role in where you are going to fly from. If it is a concern, most people take a shuttle, uber, or Lyft to the airport of choice. When I was still in the area, the typical procedure was to drive to Canton, park at a family members and get a ride to DTW.

TOL best bet for future air service is difficult. Is it focusing on leisure service and building passenger loyalty that way? Is it strengthening business options? It'd be nice to get it out of the port authority's hands, but that'll never happen. As a result, it is always going to suffer.
 
CLJFlyer
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:03 am

Anyone know what the load factors are on the CVG to SEA flights? Does the DL flight ever go daily and if it does not, do you guys think DL will eventually start doing daily?
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2020

Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:18 am

As someone who regularly flies between New York and CMH what are the chances on:
A: Delta putting the A220 on the route or some sort of mainline outside of Americans E190s which are being retired soon
and
B: A real airport lounge other than the USO lounge which looks like it hasn't been decorated since the 80s and is always empty when I walk by it when leaving from a Delta flight

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