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intrance wrote:Blerg wrote:I’m flying out of Warsaw tonight, will be interesting how it looksHopefully someone takes a picture of Warsaw with all the planes grounded there though I assume other airports will be used as well?.
SRQLOT wrote:Well this is BREAKING NEWS!!!
LOT will stop all international and domestic flights from Poland and Hungry for 10 DAYS!!!! Starting March 15.
This is the cause of Polish government closing down borders.
In polish.
https://www.rynek-lotniczy.pl/mobile/lo ... -8072.html
tomgle wrote:SRQLOT wrote:Well this is BREAKING NEWS!!!
LOT will stop all international and domestic flights from Poland and Hungry for 10 DAYS!!!! Starting March 15.
This is the cause of Polish government closing down borders.
In polish.
https://www.rynek-lotniczy.pl/mobile/lo ... -8072.html
Just curious, will the VNO-LCY route keep going for now then?
Blerg wrote:intrance wrote:Blerg wrote:I’m flying out of Warsaw tonight, will be interesting how it looksHopefully someone takes a picture of Warsaw with all the planes grounded there though I assume other airports will be used as well?
Try to take a picture for us if you don't mind, I wonder if they will use the taxiways as parking. I guess Wizz Air will move its planes to Budapest for storage?
Blerg wrote:intrance wrote:Blerg wrote:I’m flying out of Warsaw tonight, will be interesting how it looksHopefully someone takes a picture of Warsaw with all the planes grounded there though I assume other airports will be used as well?
Try to take a picture for us if you don't mind, I wonder if they will use the taxiways as parking. I guess Wizz Air will move its planes to Budapest for storage?
intrance wrote:Warsaw apron is pretty empty right now actually. But three Dreamliners parked on taxiway B6, the mostly unused loop on the left side of RW33 threshold. Otherwise plenty of space at this very moment.
Blerg wrote:Don't know, I was crew just flying in and out, spent my time in the plane. My flight was pretty full. Probably a bunch of people taking the last chance for the next days to get to where they need to go.What about the terminal, is it empty? Are there many passengers and flights?
intrance wrote:Blerg wrote:Don't know, I was crew just flying in and out, spent my time in the plane. My flight was pretty full. Probably a bunch of people taking the last chance for the next days to get to where they need to go.What about the terminal, is it empty? Are there many passengers and flights?
Quite a few LOT flights still went outbound by the way, so I guess they will come back as ferries or possibly charters to get Polish nationals home. Apron and parking space seemed pretty much normal for the two hours I was there, aside from those parked on B6 and perhaps the odd pax plane parked on the cargo apron. Anyway, interesting times to be alive.
LHRLAXSYD wrote:They won't be 'paying a premium', the prices of the tickets are set to cover the cost of operating the flight, and are subsidised by the government. I guess they could have contracted other airlines to operate the repatriation flights, e.g. enter air, to make the operation seem a bit fairer, but I haven't seen anyone share your opinion, so I don't think this is really the issue at the forefront of people's minds. Also, Poland is far from the only country to close borders, and even without doing so, planes were flying very empty, so odds are most flights would have been cancelled sooner than later anyway. The bigger issue with these flights is the questionable logic of putting lots of people very close together, while the rest of the country is shut down to prevent this kind of situation. There have also been reports that crews are inadequately equipped to prevent infection, e.g. lack of masks and disinfectant.Hilarious. The Polish government closed the borders effectively grounding the entire air transport network which invalidated all commercial tickets to and from the country only to announce the same day that 'repatriation charter flights' solely operated by LOT will take place. Lucky passengers who hit the lottery will kindly pay a premium for the privilege of being onboard a LOT aircraft that in many instances they would have been on anyway. Eastern European creativity would have been funny if it wasn't so sad.
tomgle wrote:They won't be 'paying a premium', the prices of the tickets are set to cover the cost of operating the flight, and are subsidised by the government.l
intrance wrote:I get that, but wouldn’t passengers (at least those who had tickets on LOT flights) be entitled to refunds? Prior to the full suspension LOT were allowing cancellations and changes for no fee, so hopefully they would extend this policy to flights cancelled due to the current suspension. It would actually be interesting to see if this is the case. As for those who had flights booked on other airlines, especially low cost carriers like FR or W6, it is indeed a bigger issue, as those flights were usually substantially cheaper than the prices of the tickets for the new flights. I’ve heard that in some cases Polish consulates will be able to give loans to help people pay to return to Poland. Not ideal, but better than nothing. LOT and the government should come up with a better solution, as the prices I saw, especially for European flights, were pretty expensive compared to usual fares, especially on LCC’s, and even compared to some of LOT’s.tomgle wrote:They won't be 'paying a premium', the prices of the tickets are set to cover the cost of operating the flight, and are subsidised by the government.l
I think what you are missing here is that many pax who would like to be repatriated probably had tickets on LOT flights that got cancelled because of the decision to close the borders. Perhaps even not getting refunds as airlines and insurance companies will be very happy to claim force majeure. And then getting to pay again to have a seat on a repatriation flight.
intrance wrote:
I think what you are missing here is that many pax who would like to be repatriated probably had tickets on LOT flights that got cancelled because of the decision to close the borders. Perhaps even not getting refunds as airlines and insurance companies will be very happy to claim force majeure. And then getting to pay again to have a seat on a repatriation flight.
tomgle wrote:intrance wrote:I get that, but wouldn’t passengers (at least those who had tickets on LOT flights) be entitled to refunds? Prior to the full suspension LOT were allowing cancellations and changes for no fee, so hopefully they would extend this policy to flights cancelled due to the current suspension. It would actually be interesting to see if this is the case. As for those who had flights booked on other airlines, especially low cost carriers like FR or W6, it is indeed a bigger issue, as those flights were usually substantially cheaper than the prices of the tickets for the new flights. I’ve heard that in some cases Polish consulates will be able to give loans to help people pay to return to Poland. Not ideal, but better than nothing. LOT and the government should come up with a better solution, as the prices I saw, especially for European flights, were pretty expensive compared to usual fares, especially on LCC’s, and even compared to some of LOT’s.tomgle wrote:They won't be 'paying a premium', the prices of the tickets are set to cover the cost of operating the flight, and are subsidised by the government.l
I think what you are missing here is that many pax who would like to be repatriated probably had tickets on LOT flights that got cancelled because of the decision to close the borders. Perhaps even not getting refunds as airlines and insurance companies will be very happy to claim force majeure. And then getting to pay again to have a seat on a repatriation flight.
Also, apologies if this post and my previous one have seemed a bit like a rant, but LHRLAXSYD’s post seemed to imply that the gov’t only closed borders and organised these repatriation flights as a way to make a quick buck for LOT. Now I’m usually pretty critical of this government, but I’m sure that that was not their motivation for the actions that they took.
LHRLAXSYD wrote:tomgle wrote:intrance wrote:I get that, but wouldn’t passengers (at least those who had tickets on LOT flights) be entitled to refunds? Prior to the full suspension LOT were allowing cancellations and changes for no fee, so hopefully they would extend this policy to flights cancelled due to the current suspension. It would actually be interesting to see if this is the case. As for those who had flights booked on other airlines, especially low cost carriers like FR or W6, it is indeed a bigger issue, as those flights were usually substantially cheaper than the prices of the tickets for the new flights. I’ve heard that in some cases Polish consulates will be able to give loans to help people pay to return to Poland. Not ideal, but better than nothing. LOT and the government should come up with a better solution, as the prices I saw, especially for European flights, were pretty expensive compared to usual fares, especially on LCC’s, and even compared to some of LOT’s.
I think what you are missing here is that many pax who would like to be repatriated probably had tickets on LOT flights that got cancelled because of the decision to close the borders. Perhaps even not getting refunds as airlines and insurance companies will be very happy to claim force majeure. And then getting to pay again to have a seat on a repatriation flight.
Also, apologies if this post and my previous one have seemed a bit like a rant, but LHRLAXSYD’s post seemed to imply that the gov’t only closed borders and organised these repatriation flights as a way to make a quick buck for LOT. Now I’m usually pretty critical of this government, but I’m sure that that was not their motivation for the actions that they took.
You've just contradicted yourself by denying passengers aren't paying a premium for a seat on a chartered flight while at the same time admitting Wizzair, Ryanair and even LOT would have been cheaper.
Ceasing commercial air travel and operating premium charter flights on both the outbound and inbound at the same time is idiotic from both a financial and disease control perspective.
artflyer wrote:LHRLAXSYD wrote:tomgle wrote:I get that, but wouldn’t passengers (at least those who had tickets on LOT flights) be entitled to refunds? Prior to the full suspension LOT were allowing cancellations and changes for no fee, so hopefully they would extend this policy to flights cancelled due to the current suspension. It would actually be interesting to see if this is the case. As for those who had flights booked on other airlines, especially low cost carriers like FR or W6, it is indeed a bigger issue, as those flights were usually substantially cheaper than the prices of the tickets for the new flights. I’ve heard that in some cases Polish consulates will be able to give loans to help people pay to return to Poland. Not ideal, but better than nothing. LOT and the government should come up with a better solution, as the prices I saw, especially for European flights, were pretty expensive compared to usual fares, especially on LCC’s, and even compared to some of LOT’s.
Also, apologies if this post and my previous one have seemed a bit like a rant, but LHRLAXSYD’s post seemed to imply that the gov’t only closed borders and organised these repatriation flights as a way to make a quick buck for LOT. Now I’m usually pretty critical of this government, but I’m sure that that was not their motivation for the actions that they took.
You've just contradicted yourself by denying passengers aren't paying a premium for a seat on a chartered flight while at the same time admitting Wizzair, Ryanair and even LOT would have been cheaper.
Ceasing commercial air travel and operating premium charter flights on both the outbound and inbound at the same time is idiotic from both a financial and disease control perspective.
Pax with a LO ticket for a scheduled flight with a date falling during flight suspension may at its election: a) get a full refund, b) get a voucher, c) reschedule for a scheduled flight with a date falling after resumption of scheduled flights without any fee (subject to some restrictions), d) without any fee exchange for a ticket on a charter flight.
It means that if a pax wishes so, it may get a refund of the existing ticket and buy himself a new ticket on a charter flight, if that would be cheaper for him. The pax may also use the existing ticket to exchange it for a ticket for a charter flight and this without any additional payment, if that would be cheaper for him.
There are no pax on the outbound flight, only on the inbound flight. I expect part of that cost is met by tax money, and the rest by the cost of the inbound ticket.
It would be really difficult to organise this with any other airline (including Enter Air as the top pick probably), having in mind a) a vast majority of flights is longhaul, b) it was organised virtually overnight. Your company should have volunteered and we would then see how it went.
Overall the amount of flights as for now is fairly limited. We shall see how it progresses.
LHRLAXSYD wrote:artflyer wrote:LHRLAXSYD wrote:
You've just contradicted yourself by denying passengers aren't paying a premium for a seat on a chartered flight while at the same time admitting Wizzair, Ryanair and even LOT would have been cheaper.
Ceasing commercial air travel and operating premium charter flights on both the outbound and inbound at the same time is idiotic from both a financial and disease control perspective.
Pax with a LO ticket for a scheduled flight with a date falling during flight suspension may at its election: a) get a full refund, b) get a voucher, c) reschedule for a scheduled flight with a date falling after resumption of scheduled flights without any fee (subject to some restrictions), d) without any fee exchange for a ticket on a charter flight.
It means that if a pax wishes so, it may get a refund of the existing ticket and buy himself a new ticket on a charter flight, if that would be cheaper for him. The pax may also use the existing ticket to exchange it for a ticket for a charter flight and this without any additional payment, if that would be cheaper for him.
There are no pax on the outbound flight, only on the inbound flight. I expect part of that cost is met by tax money, and the rest by the cost of the inbound ticket.
It would be really difficult to organise this with any other airline (including Enter Air as the top pick probably), having in mind a) a vast majority of flights is longhaul, b) it was organised virtually overnight. Your company should have volunteered and we would then see how it went.
Overall the amount of flights as for now is fairly limited. We shall see how it progresses.
Fantastic, so can you explain how does grounding commercial flights and operating charter flights on the same routes help to stop the spread of the virus?
artflyer wrote:LHRLAXSYD wrote:artflyer wrote:
Pax with a LO ticket for a scheduled flight with a date falling during flight suspension may at its election: a) get a full refund, b) get a voucher, c) reschedule for a scheduled flight with a date falling after resumption of scheduled flights without any fee (subject to some restrictions), d) without any fee exchange for a ticket on a charter flight.
It means that if a pax wishes so, it may get a refund of the existing ticket and buy himself a new ticket on a charter flight, if that would be cheaper for him. The pax may also use the existing ticket to exchange it for a ticket for a charter flight and this without any additional payment, if that would be cheaper for him.
There are no pax on the outbound flight, only on the inbound flight. I expect part of that cost is met by tax money, and the rest by the cost of the inbound ticket.
It would be really difficult to organise this with any other airline (including Enter Air as the top pick probably), having in mind a) a vast majority of flights is longhaul, b) it was organised virtually overnight. Your company should have volunteered and we would then see how it went.
Overall the amount of flights as for now is fairly limited. We shall see how it progresses.
Fantastic, so can you explain how does grounding commercial flights and operating charter flights on the same routes help to stop the spread of the virus?
I see that you registered on a.net to have this discussion, so I am happy that I can help.
If scheduled flights were to continue, there would be no way to disallow Poles leaving the country by air for vacations etc. I guess the government wanted to avoid a situation where large groups, just because they booked holidays all around the globe, including Spain, Italy and similarily affected places, continue to voyage and then return home potentially bringing more problems. Under Polish constitution there is no way to ban a Pole from entering a country. So organising it this way was for me a way to cut off outbound flights and tell people to stay at home.
On a separate point the charter flights repatriate Poles also from places where there were no direct scheduled flights from Poland like Vietnam. With scheduled flights limited all around the globe, transfering could now be both a challange and a risk of being stuck somewhere in the middle.
LHRLAXSYD wrote:artflyer wrote:LHRLAXSYD wrote:
Fantastic, so can you explain how does grounding commercial flights and operating charter flights on the same routes help to stop the spread of the virus?
I see that you registered on a.net to have this discussion, so I am happy that I can help.
If scheduled flights were to continue, there would be no way to disallow Poles leaving the country by air for vacations etc. I guess the government wanted to avoid a situation where large groups, just because they booked holidays all around the globe, including Spain, Italy and similarily affected places, continue to voyage and then return home potentially bringing more problems. Under Polish constitution there is no way to ban a Pole from entering a country. So organising it this way was for me a way to cut off outbound flights and tell people to stay at home.
On a separate point the charter flights repatriate Poles also from places where there were no direct scheduled flights from Poland like Vietnam. With scheduled flights limited all around the globe, transfering could now be both a challange and a risk of being stuck somewhere in the middle.
You can close the borders without grounding air travel simply by restricting the transport to inbound Polish citizens and Polish permanent residents? Like the rest of the world does? Or is that too difficult to comprehend for an average person?
artflyer wrote:LHRLAXSYD wrote:artflyer wrote:
I see that you registered on a.net to have this discussion, so I am happy that I can help.
If scheduled flights were to continue, there would be no way to disallow Poles leaving the country by air for vacations etc. I guess the government wanted to avoid a situation where large groups, just because they booked holidays all around the globe, including Spain, Italy and similarily affected places, continue to voyage and then return home potentially bringing more problems. Under Polish constitution there is no way to ban a Pole from entering a country. So organising it this way was for me a way to cut off outbound flights and tell people to stay at home.
On a separate point the charter flights repatriate Poles also from places where there were no direct scheduled flights from Poland like Vietnam. With scheduled flights limited all around the globe, transfering could now be both a challange and a risk of being stuck somewhere in the middle.
You can close the borders without grounding air travel simply by restricting the transport to inbound Polish citizens and Polish permanent residents? Like the rest of the world does? Or is that too difficult to comprehend for an average person?
You cannot restrict an airline from selling tickets to Poles on outbound scheduled flights, when it is totally legal for them to leave the country. Border is closed, but only for incoming foreigners and not for incoming or outcoming Poles. The only way is to take that opportunity away from them. I hope it is not too difficult to comprehend.
LHRLAXSYD wrote:artflyer wrote:LHRLAXSYD wrote:
You can close the borders without grounding air travel simply by restricting the transport to inbound Polish citizens and Polish permanent residents? Like the rest of the world does? Or is that too difficult to comprehend for an average person?
You cannot restrict an airline from selling tickets to Poles on outbound scheduled flights, when it is totally legal for them to leave the country. Border is closed, but only for incoming foreigners and not for incoming or outcoming Poles. The only way is to take that opportunity away from them. I hope it is not too difficult to comprehend.
Where did I write that outbound travel would be restricted to Polish citizens? You might want to read my posts again and pay attention as English is clearly not your strong point.
factsonly wrote:LOT operates yet another London flight, LO8661 operating WAW-LCY with E190 SP-LMA;
https://www.flightradar24.com/LOT8661/24363842
artflyer wrote:LHRLAXSYD wrote:artflyer wrote:
You cannot restrict an airline from selling tickets to Poles on outbound scheduled flights, when it is totally legal for them to leave the country. Border is closed, but only for incoming foreigners and not for incoming or outcoming Poles. The only way is to take that opportunity away from them. I hope it is not too difficult to comprehend.
Where did I write that outbound travel would be restricted to Polish citizens? You might want to read my posts again and pay attention as English is clearly not your strong point.
Your English is your strong point but your logical thinking skill seems deficient. My last attempt at explaining it: the Polish gov wanted to prevent Poles from flying on outbound flights. The problem is that with scheduled flights you cannot legally tell airlines to sell outbound tickets only to non-Poles, given that it is totally legal for Poles to leave the country. With all flights chartered by the gov they can restrict sales as only they wish, including, as they did, stop any sales on outbound flights.
I really hope that helps, but any way I just call it a day.
tomgle wrote:I noticed KLM operated a rotation to Warsaw today (KL1365 AMS-WAW, KL1366 WAW-AMS), anyone know what the story with that is?
factsonly wrote:tomgle wrote:I noticed KLM operated a rotation to Warsaw today (KL1365 AMS-WAW, KL1366 WAW-AMS), anyone know what the story with that is?
Non-Polish airlines are permitted to carry Polish citizens to Poland and non-Polish citizen departing from Poland.
factsonly wrote:Wednesday 18 March, 2020:
LOT operates WAW-LCY:
- LO8657 WAW dep. 07:59 - LCY arr. 09:10 E190 SP-LMA
MikeyPHX wrote:They can’t on regular scheduled commercial flights, which are canceled. This KLM is technically also a charter flight. Per EU laws they can’t ban other EU airlines operating flights with the same charter rules as LOT has.
factsonly wrote:Wednesday 18 March, 2020:
LOT is operating WAW-Varadero with B789:
- LO6537 dep. WAW 14:37 - arr. VRA 18:59 B789 SP-LSG
(not on the above list)
parrotta wrote:Blerg wrote:intrance wrote:I’m flying out of Warsaw tonight, will be interesting how it looks
Try to take a picture for us if you don't mind, I wonder if they will use the taxiways as parking. I guess Wizz Air will move its planes to Budapest for storage?
Seems some wizz planes will be sitting in Poland during the lock down.They are not needed elsewhere anyway
factsonly wrote:Thursday March 19, 2020:
LOT operates WAW-DUB:
- LO8665 dep. 06.38 WAW - arr. 08.20 DUB B738 SP-LWF
https://www.flightradar24.com/LOT8665/243a2357
artflyer wrote:Curosity: on 29 March SYD-WAW by LO on B789 (22h55min).
rafalyyz wrote:Have they gone bankrupt yet?
Blerg wrote:rafalyyz wrote:Have they gone bankrupt yet?
My guess is that they got some money from the government to operate charter flights to repatriate stranded Poles around the world.
Blerg wrote:rafalyyz wrote:Have they gone bankrupt yet?
My guess is that they got some money from the government to operate charter flights to repatriate stranded Poles around the world.
Blerg wrote:rafalyyz wrote:Have they gone bankrupt yet?
My guess is that they got some money from the government to operate charter flights to repatriate stranded Poles around the world.
SRQLOT wrote:I read in the polish news media that LOT will most likely restart domestic flights in early June? and international in July/August, I can'f find the article, can anyone confirm?
LOT is also renegotiating with leasing companies on better agreements.
I think we could make a list of things that need to happen with the restart of operations and next year or two
Cancel all wet leases with (Air Belgium, Blue Air, (forgot who the A320s coming from)) to streamline the fleet
Remove from fleet leased Q-400 and E-170/75, and
keep E-195 coming in from Azul
Once 737Max restarts flying remove 737NG from fleet
Will Lufthansa put early focus on Polish regional airports? or can LOT beat them to the punch and solidify regional flying especially if borders are closed to international flying for a while longer?
787s continue flying in and out of AUH with maintenance so hopefully it will finally be a strong longhoul fleet
Refocus on BUD or it should be shelved?
Fleet should consist of E-190/95, B737Max and B787
I'm guessing at this point we can forget about the next order for longhoul and with that any other aircraft.
