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machbullet
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:52 pm

Planeboy17 wrote:
I think they are doing a complete jetbridge replacement for all of T5.


Would be nice if they added glass jetbridges.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:48 pm

KLM 747-400 PH-BFL will ferry AMS-ORD-MHV as KL9879 on October 5, 2020 for retirement. This will be the final flight of a KLM 747-400 (non-Combi). Departure from AMS will be 8:55AM local, with arrival at MHV around 2PM local (where I'll likely be waiting for her). She currently has 133,465 flight hours and 17,225 cycles. It is rumored that she will become a parts donor for Western Global Airlines. Arrival at ORD will likely be around 11AM local, with departure around 12:30PM local, like the previous flights.

Source (in Dutch): https://www.scramble.nl/community/messa ... start=4560
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Just a normal teenager juggling AP classes and airplanes. No biggie • Love the 747 & 777-9 • Farewell KLM 747-400M
 
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AmricanShamrok
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:08 pm

Didn't see this posted. The FAA has a good video on the opening of the new RWY 9C/27C in November and planned revised airfield configuration in east and west flows after it opens:

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_development/omp/
 
sircygnus
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:17 am

[threeid][/threeid]
AmricanShamrok wrote:
Didn't see this posted. The FAA has a good video on the opening of the new RWY 9C/27C in November and planned revised airfield configuration in east and west flows after it opens:

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_development/omp/


Awesome find! Certainly sounds like the new runway will be getting some use quick!
 
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kordcj
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:14 am

[twoid][/twoid]
sircygnus wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
AmricanShamrok wrote:
Didn't see this posted. The FAA has a good video on the opening of the new RWY 9C/27C in November and planned revised airfield configuration in east and west flows after it opens:

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_development/omp/


Awesome find! Certainly sounds like the new runway will be getting some use quick!


Interesting video. I like how she emphasized that no more than 3 runways will ever be used for arrivals. So much for the quadruple approach. I suppose these days, the triple approach is barely even used. Does anyone know if the FAA ever plans to utilize 4 runways for arrivals? I assume the 4 would be the two centers and the outer runways. Are there any limitations that prohibit it?
The most obvious proof for intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't tried to contact us.
 
schernov
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:16 pm

I think somebody posted earlier that quad landings are not currently possible due to the fact that if more than one plane has an aborted landing AND there is an emergency on one of the take off runways - there is no set procedure for how to deal with them on the other side.
 
MLIAA
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:01 pm

How are they going to line up departures when they eventually depart 27L? It will probably be an intersection takeoff (M maybe) to cross traffic behind the departure point, but there is no real estate over there. When the long departure lines come back, will they line up on golf? That would block the high B gates or create congestion around the A & B bridges.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
jcwr56
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:48 pm

MLIAA wrote:
How are they going to line up departures when they eventually depart 27L? It will probably be an intersection takeoff (M maybe) to cross traffic behind the departure point, but there is no real estate over there. When the long departure lines come back, will they line up on golf? That would block the high B gates or create congestion around the A & B bridges.


Using Bravo holding short of the bridge like they did when 32R was opened. Good old days of gridlocking flights coming out of K/L alleyway, north side of L and M1,2,3.

Next T5 temp gate to be opened will be M22 around 10/7. For those interested, it will be a 848' walk to the entrance of the building proper via the tunnel sections and around a total walk of 1700' to CBP.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:57 pm

jcwr56 wrote:

Using Bravo holding short of the bridge like they did when 32R was opened. Good old days of gridlocking flights coming out of K/L alleyway, north side of L and M1,2,3.


The thing about the "good 'old days" is that if we were departing 32R, it was because we were landing on 27R and/or 22R and we were shooting either a single or a double gap. On east flow we were sometimes departing 4L and 9L while at the same time landing on 9L. 32R departures were a huge clog in the wheel. (old runway numbering)

With the new runway layout departures from the new 27L at either M or TT should be a free-roll or nearly a free-roll. Arrivals could possibly cross the new 27L at the approach end ( PP) and come back over the appropriate bridge. Add to that, there will be far fewer 757 wake turbulence issues to slow down the departure flow since those planes are mostly gone. The K and L alley departures would more than likely taxi around the airport clockwise to keep moving instead of clogging up the bridges....I'm guessing.

About the only things that should slow down the departure flow is convective weather.
 
MLIAA
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:32 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
How are they going to line up departures when they eventually depart 27L? It will probably be an intersection takeoff (M maybe) to cross traffic behind the departure point, but there is no real estate over there. When the long departure lines come back, will they line up on golf? That would block the high B gates or create congestion around the A & B bridges.


Using Bravo holding short of the bridge like they did when 32R was opened. Good old days of gridlocking flights coming out of K/L alleyway, north side of L and M1,2,3.

Next T5 temp gate to be opened will be M22 around 10/7. For those interested, it will be a 848' walk to the entrance of the building proper via the tunnel sections and around a total walk of 1700' to CBP.



Ah ok, I forgot about the days of 32R. I guess they would still be able to depart 22L, so with 3 departure runways the lines may not be too bad. Thanks!
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:25 pm

kordcj wrote:

Interesting video. I like how she emphasized that no more than 3 runways will ever be used for arrivals. So much for the quadruple approach. I suppose these days, the triple approach is barely even used. Does anyone know if the FAA ever plans to utilize 4 runways for arrivals? I assume the 4 would be the two centers and the outer runways. Are there any limitations that prohibit it?


It seems to me like the triple approach is used a lot but I am happy to be corrected if wrong. From watching the video, I understood that the new runway will increase departure capacity, right? That will be a great thing since it seems I have still experienced long departure lines.
 
Elkadad313
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:33 pm

kordcj wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
sircygnus wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
AmricanShamrok wrote:
Didn't see this posted. The FAA has a good video on the opening of the new RWY 9C/27C in November and planned revised airfield configuration in east and west flows after it opens:

https://www.faa.gov/airports/airport_development/omp/


Awesome find! Certainly sounds like the new runway will be getting some use quick!


Interesting video. I like how she emphasized that no more than 3 runways will ever be used for arrivals. So much for the quadruple approach. I suppose these days, the triple approach is barely even used. Does anyone know if the FAA ever plans to utilize 4 runways for arrivals? I assume the 4 would be the two centers and the outer runways. Are there any limitations that prohibit it?

Does anyone know why 10R-28L is not used for departing traffic (distance from terminal, noise)?
 
Planeboy17
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:42 pm

Elkadad313 wrote:
kordcj wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
sircygnus wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]

Awesome find! Certainly sounds like the new runway will be getting some use quick!


Interesting video. I like how she emphasized that no more than 3 runways will ever be used for arrivals. So much for the quadruple approach. I suppose these days, the triple approach is barely even used. Does anyone know if the FAA ever plans to utilize 4 runways for arrivals? I assume the 4 would be the two centers and the outer runways. Are there any limitations that prohibit it?

Does anyone know why 10R-28L is not used for departing traffic (distance from terminal, noise)?

My guess would be it’s unnecessary since they can use 28R and 22R on the south side.
 
Elkadad313
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:08 am

Crain’s Chicago Business reports Covid-19 will likely delay completion of the massive airport terminal modernization project, but in a statement today, city Aviation Department spokesman Matt McGrath said the O’Hare project “is moving forward, period, full stop.”

“…we’re currently progressing with construction on three runways and a $1 billion expansion of Terminal 5,” McGrath said.

Does anyone know what 3rd runway he is referring to?
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:49 am

Elkadad313 wrote:
Crain’s Chicago Business reports Covid-19 will likely delay completion of the massive airport terminal modernization project, but in a statement today, city Aviation Department spokesman Matt McGrath said the O’Hare project “is moving forward, period, full stop.”

“…we’re currently progressing with construction on three runways and a $1 billion expansion of Terminal 5,” McGrath said.

Does anyone know what 3rd runway he is referring to?


If I had to guess, McGrath probably meant that three runways are under some form of construction, being 9C/27C which is set to open in a few weeks, 9L/27L which is currently being extended, and 14R/32L which is currently being removed. As for Terminal 5 expansion, it has to move forward because it is already in progress and there are contracts that the CDA are obligated to honor. As for the OGT, that might be put on the back burner. The city is knee deep in debt, with a budget shortfall which will be well over 1.5 billion next year. The state is even worse, at the tune of over 5 billion. These are some very serious numbers. With air travel significantly down for the foreseeable future, there is absolutely no reason for the city to move forward with the OGT anytime soon, as there is no need for the added capacity. My guess, is that the city will push construction to 2025 and hope to complete it sometime in the 30's. They might also ditch the two satellite terminals to save on costs. Time will tell, but the city has to shore up it's finances first, travel (especially business) needs to get back to normal, and the airlines, who are also on the hook for construction costs, need to get out of the red and hopefully none go into bankruptcy.
 
Elkadad313
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:34 am

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Elkadad313 wrote:
Crain’s Chicago Business reports Covid-19 will likely delay completion of the massive airport terminal modernization project, but in a statement today, city Aviation Department spokesman Matt McGrath said the O’Hare project “is moving forward, period, full stop.”

“…we’re currently progressing with construction on three runways and a $1 billion expansion of Terminal 5,” McGrath said.

Does anyone know what 3rd runway he is referring to?


If I had to guess, McGrath probably meant that three runways are under some form of construction, being 9C/27C which is set to open in a few weeks, 9L/27L which is currently being extended, and 14R/32L which is currently being removed. As for Terminal 5 expansion, it has to move forward because it is already in progress and there are contracts that the CDA are obligated to honor. As for the OGT, that might be put on the back burner. The city is knee deep in debt, with a budget shortfall which will be well over 1.5 billion next year. The state is even worse, at the tune of over 5 billion. These are some very serious numbers. With air travel significantly down for the foreseeable future, there is absolutely no reason for the city to move forward with the OGT anytime soon, as there is no need for the added capacity. My guess, is that the city will push construction to 2025 and hope to complete it sometime in the 30's. They might also ditch the two satellite terminals to save on costs. Time will tell, but the city has to shore up it's finances first, travel (especially business) needs to get back to normal, and the airlines, who are also on the hook for construction costs, need to get out of the red and hopefully none go into bankruptcy.

Thanks. I didn't know 14R-32L was being removed. Insofar as the projects, what a freakin' mess! I hope Trump comes through with another package for the airlines.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:09 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Elkadad313 wrote:
Crain’s Chicago Business reports Covid-19 will likely delay completion of the massive airport terminal modernization project, but in a statement today, city Aviation Department spokesman Matt McGrath said the O’Hare project “is moving forward, period, full stop.”

“…we’re currently progressing with construction on three runways and a $1 billion expansion of Terminal 5,” McGrath said.

Does anyone know what 3rd runway he is referring to?


If I had to guess, McGrath probably meant that three runways are under some form of construction, being 9C/27C which is set to open in a few weeks, 9L/27L which is currently being extended, and 14R/32L which is currently being removed. As for Terminal 5 expansion, it has to move forward because it is already in progress and there are contracts that the CDA are obligated to honor. As for the OGT, that might be put on the back burner. The city is knee deep in debt, with a budget shortfall which will be well over 1.5 billion next year. The state is even worse, at the tune of over 5 billion. These are some very serious numbers. With air travel significantly down for the foreseeable future, there is absolutely no reason for the city to move forward with the OGT anytime soon, as there is no need for the added capacity. My guess, is that the city will push construction to 2025 and hope to complete it sometime in the 30's. They might also ditch the two satellite terminals to save on costs. Time will tell, but the city has to shore up it's finances first, travel (especially business) needs to get back to normal, and the airlines, who are also on the hook for construction costs, need to get out of the red and hopefully none go into bankruptcy.


You’re probably right, but it’s sad. The OGT is desperately needed from a operational and passenger friendly perspective. Delaying doesn’t change the fact that the main terminal core is rapidly aging and needs to be replaced. When things recover, it’s gonna be annoying to do the T5 > T1/2/3 transfers again.

Hindsight is 2020, but I don’t think they should have bothered expanding T5 at all and focused all the energy on building the OGT. Basically, keep DL and SkyTeam in the main terminal and move everyone else to T5.
 
ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:16 pm

Here's the Tribune article on the topic as well.

I'm glad to hear the T5 expansion is proceeding, but I'm growing more skeptical by the day on the rest of the ORD21 and OGT. This project requires heavy buy-in from the airlines (literally) and with AA and UA (and DL too for that matter) on life support, it doesn't seem feasible the project can continue with no delays.

I was always skeptical of the original time frame for 2026-2027 completion; but now, that doesn't look even remotely possible. I guess the CDA may proceed technically-speaking (i.e. very slowly), but they could drag this out for decades, just like they did with original modernization.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavi ... story.html
 
ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:21 pm

machbullet wrote:
Planeboy17 wrote:
I think they are doing a complete jetbridge replacement for all of T5.


Would be nice if they added glass jetbridges.


Amen to that. I love the glass jetbridges you see in Europe. Never understood why glass bridges were so common all over the rest of the world, but are a total anomaly here?! Yes I remember the thread about the NFPA rules, but those were relaxed in the mid 2000s and other countries have fire protection rules as well, of course. They are great way to class up any airport.

As far as i know, AUS is the only major airport Stateside that has them.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:39 pm

ORDfan wrote:
Here's the Tribune article on the topic as well.

I'm glad to hear the T5 expansion is proceeding, but I'm growing more skeptical by the day on the rest of the ORD21 and OGT. This project requires heavy buy-in from the airlines (literally) and with AA and UA (and DL too for that matter) on life support, it doesn't seem feasible the project can continue with no delays.

I was always skeptical of the original time frame for 2026-2027 completion; but now, that doesn't look even remotely possible. I guess the CDA may proceed technically-speaking (i.e. very slowly), but they could drag this out for decades, just like they did with original modernization.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavi ... story.html


Again, it’s sad because it’s desperately needed. While no one could have foreseen the current crisis, politics are mostly to blame here.

The runway modernization should have been started in the 90s and finished no later than the 2000s, but city and state politics pushed the Peotone airport sideshow for over a decade which delayed needed upgrades to ORD.

Now the OGT will likely be delayed until the 2030s at the soonest which will drive up the overall cost. Plus, the original terminal core will be in danger of failing and driving up maintenance costs further because it is so old.
 
atrude777
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:00 pm

I am on the Chicago ORD21 Website, and I am still not seeing a timeline calendar, or project dates, or even a "moving tracker" to show how far we have come?

It seems, the Runway Project is just about complete? We will open the last "new runway" November, 2020? Complete extension of the current runway, and this will be done?

Terminal 5, is still moving forward on schedule, and projected to be completed by end of 2021?

There is a huge lack of information regarding timelines and such as well.

I also noticed they are working on the walkways too, and I was excited to see that going on as well!

Has ground work construction began for the two satellite concourses?

Finally...will the current B and C Gates be updated interior wise to match the new concourses or will we go from dull and dreary to light and airy?! Hahaha

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
ZBA2CGX
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:26 pm

atrude777 wrote:
I am on the Chicago ORD21 Website, and I am still not seeing a timeline calendar, or project dates, or even a "moving tracker" to show how far we have come?


Ha, nothing is transparent in Chicago. If it was, you would have to hold people accountable.

The city should learn from the SLC airport project on how to show the public on how the project is progressing. I fear that will never happen
 
ckfred
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:37 pm

I suspect that any large airport project across the country will be delayed, simply because travel volume is so light. While leisure travel will probably rebound as a vaccine becomes readily available, some analysts suspect that it might be 2022 or 2023, before we see any business travel of significant volume. Besides hurting the airlines, that will hurt hotels, restaurants, rental cars, ride sharing, and convention centers.

In my opinion, the City should focus on getting the runway projects completed, getting Terminal 5 expanded, and getting the ATS running. The shuttle buses between the remote parking/rental car garage and the terminals have been expensive and have added to the vehicular congestion, particularly on the arrival level.
 
ORDfan
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Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:02 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:17 pm

ZBA2CGX wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
I am on the Chicago ORD21 Website, and I am still not seeing a timeline calendar, or project dates, or even a "moving tracker" to show how far we have come?


Ha, nothing is transparent in Chicago. If it was, you would have to hold people accountable.

The city should learn from the SLC airport project on how to show the public on how the project is progressing. I fear that will never happen


Um ok... like this??

https://www.mdwmod.com/progress/Pages/C ... -2020.aspx

https://www.mdwmod.com/progress/Pages/C ... -2019.aspx

https://www.mdwmod.com/progress/Pages/C ... -2018.aspx

https://www.midwaypartnership.com/follow-our-progress/
 
atrude777
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:45 pm

ORDfan wrote:
ZBA2CGX wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
I am on the Chicago ORD21 Website, and I am still not seeing a timeline calendar, or project dates, or even a "moving tracker" to show how far we have come?


Ha, nothing is transparent in Chicago. If it was, you would have to hold people accountable.

The city should learn from the SLC airport project on how to show the public on how the project is progressing. I fear that will never happen


Um ok... like this??

https://www.mdwmod.com/progress/Pages/C ... -2020.aspx

https://www.mdwmod.com/progress/Pages/C ... -2019.aspx

https://www.mdwmod.com/progress/Pages/C ... -2018.aspx

https://www.midwaypartnership.com/follow-our-progress/


ORDFan-That's perfect! Now we just need one for ORD! Good work though updating for MDW!

I googled ORD Tracker Construction Project but didn't get anything, except being referred to the ORD21 Website.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
atrude777
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:47 pm

ckfred wrote:
I suspect that any large airport project across the country will be delayed, simply because travel volume is so light. While leisure travel will probably rebound as a vaccine becomes readily available, some analysts suspect that it might be 2022 or 2023, before we see any business travel of significant volume. Besides hurting the airlines, that will hurt hotels, restaurants, rental cars, ride sharing, and convention centers.

In my opinion, the City should focus on getting the runway projects completed, getting Terminal 5 expanded, and getting the ATS running. The shuttle buses between the remote parking/rental car garage and the terminals have been expensive and have added to the vehicular congestion, particularly on the arrival level.


I agree from a financial standpoint, but it seems now is the time to build, and build fast WHILE passenger traffic is low.

It's how SLC was able to speed up, and LAX is moving quicker on schedule.

ORD in this exampl, it was needed 20 years ago, we are building for the future, not now (Though we need it now!) :-D

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:57 pm

atrude777 wrote:
ckfred wrote:
I suspect that any large airport project across the country will be delayed, simply because travel volume is so light. While leisure travel will probably rebound as a vaccine becomes readily available, some analysts suspect that it might be 2022 or 2023, before we see any business travel of significant volume. Besides hurting the airlines, that will hurt hotels, restaurants, rental cars, ride sharing, and convention centers.

In my opinion, the City should focus on getting the runway projects completed, getting Terminal 5 expanded, and getting the ATS running. The shuttle buses between the remote parking/rental car garage and the terminals have been expensive and have added to the vehicular congestion, particularly on the arrival level.


I agree from a financial standpoint, but it seems now is the time to build, and build fast WHILE passenger traffic is low.

It's how SLC was able to speed up, and LAX is moving quicker on schedule.

ORD in this exampl, it was needed 20 years ago, we are building for the future, not now (Though we need it now!) :-D

Alex


The problem is ORD already has a ton of debt due to the OMP and has a high CPE as a result. It would be difficult to issue bonds for the OGT with uncertainty regarding when/if passenger traffic rebounds.

This is why I now believe expanding T5 at all was a mistake. They should have forgone expanding T5, allowed DL/SkyTeam to stay in the main terminal and focused on the OGT.
 
atrude777
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:38 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
ckfred wrote:
I suspect that any large airport project across the country will be delayed, simply because travel volume is so light. While leisure travel will probably rebound as a vaccine becomes readily available, some analysts suspect that it might be 2022 or 2023, before we see any business travel of significant volume. Besides hurting the airlines, that will hurt hotels, restaurants, rental cars, ride sharing, and convention centers.

In my opinion, the City should focus on getting the runway projects completed, getting Terminal 5 expanded, and getting the ATS running. The shuttle buses between the remote parking/rental car garage and the terminals have been expensive and have added to the vehicular congestion, particularly on the arrival level.


I agree from a financial standpoint, but it seems now is the time to build, and build fast WHILE passenger traffic is low.

It's how SLC was able to speed up, and LAX is moving quicker on schedule.

ORD in this exampl, it was needed 20 years ago, we are building for the future, not now (Though we need it now!) :-D

Alex


The problem is ORD already has a ton of debt due to the OMP and has a high CPE as a result. It would be difficult to issue bonds for the OGT with uncertainty regarding when/if passenger traffic rebounds.

This is why I now believe expanding T5 at all was a mistake. They should have forgone expanding T5, allowed DL/SkyTeam to stay in the main terminal and focused on the OGT.


OGT couldn't be built until Terminal 2 Gates E/F were demolished.

Delta needed space as did the UAEX Gates too while OGT was being built.

Terminal 5 accommodates Delta, and the two satellite concourses accommodated E/F UAEX Gates while E/F could be demolished.

That's why the order of Terminal 5 being done first.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:59 am

atrude777 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
atrude777 wrote:

I agree from a financial standpoint, but it seems now is the time to build, and build fast WHILE passenger traffic is low.

It's how SLC was able to speed up, and LAX is moving quicker on schedule.

ORD in this exampl, it was needed 20 years ago, we are building for the future, not now (Though we need it now!) :-D

Alex


The problem is ORD already has a ton of debt due to the OMP and has a high CPE as a result. It would be difficult to issue bonds for the OGT with uncertainty regarding when/if passenger traffic rebounds.

This is why I now believe expanding T5 at all was a mistake. They should have forgone expanding T5, allowed DL/SkyTeam to stay in the main terminal and focused on the OGT.


OGT couldn't be built until Terminal 2 Gates E/F were demolished.

Delta needed space as did the UAEX Gates too while OGT was being built.

Terminal 5 accommodates Delta, and the two satellite concourses accommodated E/F UAEX Gates while E/F could be demolished.

That's why the order of Terminal 5 being done first.

Alex


I know. My point was saving money by NOT expanding T5 at all and leave DL/SkyTeam in the main terminal complex/future OGT. There is no reason to move DL to T5, all the US3 should be in the main terminal complex. ORD could have then focused all their resources on the OGT which is needed much more than T5 expansion.
 
chicawgo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:25 am

BNAMealer wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

The problem is ORD already has a ton of debt due to the OMP and has a high CPE as a result. It would be difficult to issue bonds for the OGT with uncertainty regarding when/if passenger traffic rebounds.

This is why I now believe expanding T5 at all was a mistake. They should have forgone expanding T5, allowed DL/SkyTeam to stay in the main terminal and focused on the OGT.


OGT couldn't be built until Terminal 2 Gates E/F were demolished.

Delta needed space as did the UAEX Gates too while OGT was being built.

Terminal 5 accommodates Delta, and the two satellite concourses accommodated E/F UAEX Gates while E/F could be demolished.

That's why the order of Terminal 5 being done first.

Alex


I know. My point was saving money by NOT expanding T5 at all and leave DL/SkyTeam in the main terminal complex/future OGT. There is no reason to move DL to T5, all the US3 should be in the main terminal complex. ORD could have then focused all their resources on the OGT which is needed much more than T5 expansion.


I’m not sure you’re understanding. They need to MOVE DL to NEW GATES at T5 while they demolish T2 and then rebuild it. If they didn’t do this.... they would be DOWN probably 40-some gates for years if they didn’t move DL to T5
 
jcwr56
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:55 am

atrude777 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:
ZBA2CGX wrote:

Ha, nothing is transparent in Chicago. If it was, you would have to hold people accountable.

The city should learn from the SLC airport project on how to show the public on how the project is progressing. I fear that will never happen


Um ok... like this??

https://www.mdwmod.com/progress/Pages/C ... -2020.aspx

https://www.mdwmod.com/progress/Pages/C ... -2019.aspx

https://www.mdwmod.com/progress/Pages/C ... -2018.aspx

https://www.midwaypartnership.com/follow-our-progress/


ORDFan-That's perfect! Now we just need one for ORD! Good work though updating for MDW!

I googled ORD Tracker Construction Project but didn't get anything, except being referred to the ORD21 Website.

Alex


What you're asking for is a monumental task in of itself. You have Runways, Taxiways, Terminals, other airport structures all having various ongoing projects, both short and long term. Trying to funnel that into a single point would be a full time job and then some.

For instance, at T5 you have the temp bridges and walkways being installed, old bridges (all of them) being replaced. the entire terminal glass being resealed, baggage system being replaced, TSA checkpoint being expanded, pavement and fuel pits being replaced, some ticket counters being demo'd, the expansion of T5 beginning with structural steel being set...

A/B taxi relocation...
figure both runways
main parking lot rehab
T5 parking structure
ATS
190 widening
south basin widening
The list goes on and on and on....

Now you have numerous contracted parties, who is responsible to give a social media person a monthly update on projects that list into the hundreds.
 
Kbud
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:51 pm

ORDfan wrote:
Here's the Tribune article on the topic as well.

I'm glad to hear the T5 expansion is proceeding, but I'm growing more skeptical by the day on the rest of the ORD21 and OGT. This project requires heavy buy-in from the airlines (literally) and with AA and UA (and DL too for that matter) on life support, it doesn't seem feasible the project can continue with no delays.

I was always skeptical of the original time frame for 2026-2027 completion; but now, that doesn't look even remotely possible. I guess the CDA may proceed technically-speaking (i.e. very slowly), but they could drag this out for decades, just like they did with original modernization.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavi ... story.html

I understand the immense financial pressure on the airlines today. It is just too bad that this pandemic hit before any major component of the O'hare21 plan had started. Honestly the T5 expansion was well in the works before the mega plan was introduced. It's sad to think O'hare introduced the World Gateway Program over 20 years ago and nothing came of it. It was set to bring a new Terminal 4, a new Terminal 6, and massive improvements to Terminals 2 and 3.

Yes, new runways were added. But the infrastructure of the terminals and the amount of needed gates at O'hare is an embarrassment, and when air traffic recovers in 3 to 4 years, they'll be in even worse shape without a shovel in the ground. Singapore airport is another airport that is accelerating the timing of their overhaul of T2. With the slowdown in air travel they immediately moved all carriers out of T2 and now will deliver the finished terminal over a year early.
 
sircygnus
Posts: 77
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:05 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:


ORDFan-That's perfect! Now we just need one for ORD! Good work though updating for MDW!

I googled ORD Tracker Construction Project but didn't get anything, except being referred to the ORD21 Website.

Alex


What you're asking for is a monumental task in of itself. You have Runways, Taxiways, Terminals, other airport structures all having various ongoing projects, both short and long term. Trying to funnel that into a single point would be a full time job and then some.

For instance, at T5 you have the temp bridges and walkways being installed, old bridges (all of them) being replaced. the entire terminal glass being resealed, baggage system being replaced, TSA checkpoint being expanded, pavement and fuel pits being replaced, some ticket counters being demo'd, the expansion of T5 beginning with structural steel being set...

A/B taxi relocation...
figure both runways
main parking lot rehab
T5 parking structure
ATS
190 widening
south basin widening
The list goes on and on and on....

Now you have numerous contracted parties, who is responsible to give a social media person a monthly update on projects that list into the hundreds.


All good points. I flew home yesterday and while taxiing to C16 I thought the same thing. There will ALWAYS be some kind of construction ongoing at the airport. The scope and size of the airport requires it. None of these projects are easy and the airport has been around for a while meaning the “enabling” projects are many and not glamorous. There is nothing exciting about underground storm water piping or electrical relocations, but they are equally as necessary.

Departing 10L I got a great view of the T5 work and noticed the long jet bridges you mentioned upthread. It really does look like it would be a hike.

One thing thing that would satiate our desire for progress would be monthly aerials. I know MSY did those so the progress for every project was visible. It was also neat to see the monthly progression of the projects. (Don’t care which of the multiple projects they are just want to see a visual of the progress). Paschen seems to do it on their FB page for 9C27C, would hope it would be possible airport wide or for T5. Google imagery take too long .
 
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:10 pm

chicawgo wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
atrude777 wrote:

OGT couldn't be built until Terminal 2 Gates E/F were demolished.

Delta needed space as did the UAEX Gates too while OGT was being built.

Terminal 5 accommodates Delta, and the two satellite concourses accommodated E/F UAEX Gates while E/F could be demolished.

That's why the order of Terminal 5 being done first.

Alex


I know. My point was saving money by NOT expanding T5 at all and leave DL/SkyTeam in the main terminal complex/future OGT. There is no reason to move DL to T5, all the US3 should be in the main terminal complex. ORD could have then focused all their resources on the OGT which is needed much more than T5 expansion.


I’m not sure you’re understanding. They need to MOVE DL to NEW GATES at T5 while they demolish T2 and then rebuild it. If they didn’t do this.... they would be DOWN probably 40-some gates for years if they didn’t move DL to T5


Not quite sure what you are getting at either. DL is already in T2, the satellites would replace the gates lost on T2 during construction. The OGT is more critically needed than an expansion of T5, and the US3 should all stay in the main terminal complex. Therefore, they should have forgone the T5 expansion for the get go and just focused on the OGT. Expanding T5 is a waste of money considering how it is disconnected from the rest of the airport.
 
dopplerd
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:38 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

I know. My point was saving money by NOT expanding T5 at all and leave DL/SkyTeam in the main terminal complex/future OGT. There is no reason to move DL to T5, all the US3 should be in the main terminal complex. ORD could have then focused all their resources on the OGT which is needed much more than T5 expansion.


I’m not sure you’re understanding. They need to MOVE DL to NEW GATES at T5 while they demolish T2 and then rebuild it. If they didn’t do this.... they would be DOWN probably 40-some gates for years if they didn’t move DL to T5


Not quite sure what you are getting at either. DL is already in T2, the satellites would replace the gates lost on T2 during construction. The OGT is more critically needed than an expansion of T5, and the US3 should all stay in the main terminal complex. Therefore, they should have forgone the T5 expansion for the get go and just focused on the OGT. Expanding T5 is a waste of money considering how it is disconnected from the rest of the airport.


Curious to know where you would like the T2 capacity to go during construction of the OGT?

The OGT can't start construction until T2 is demolished. T2 can't be demolished until replacement capacity is built.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:00 pm

dopplerd wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
chicawgo wrote:

I’m not sure you’re understanding. They need to MOVE DL to NEW GATES at T5 while they demolish T2 and then rebuild it. If they didn’t do this.... they would be DOWN probably 40-some gates for years if they didn’t move DL to T5


Not quite sure what you are getting at either. DL is already in T2, the satellites would replace the gates lost on T2 during construction. The OGT is more critically needed than an expansion of T5, and the US3 should all stay in the main terminal complex. Therefore, they should have forgone the T5 expansion for the get go and just focused on the OGT. Expanding T5 is a waste of money considering how it is disconnected from the rest of the airport.


Curious to know where you would like the T2 capacity to go during construction of the OGT?

The OGT can't start construction until T2 is demolished. T2 can't be demolished until replacement capacity is built.


Like I said in my post above, the satellites will replace the lost T2 capacity. The satellites will be built before the actual T2 reconstruction, that was always in the plan. My point was they shouldn’t have bothered to expand T5 and kept DL/SkyTeam in the main terminal complex.
 
AAplat4life
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:16 pm

There’s a lot to criticize about the OGT, including it’s design and the overall poor integration with most of T3 and parts of T1 and all of T5. In theory when it’s completed, Star and oneworld members will move there and be closer to AA and UA. Skyteam members and other domestic carriers, including DL, are slated to operate out of T5. The thought was that connecting traffic among the various alliances would be minimal enough to handle this with existing methods such as buses or the people mover if it ever becomes operational again. I don’t recall any objections from DL on moving to T5 and this was all heavily negotiated with the airlines.

Of course, what sounded good in theory a few years back may not be ideal in the future, and the airline world has certainly changed unexpectedly and will continue to do so. When ORD moves to nondedicated gates, it will be possible for other airlines to move out of T5. Time will tell. However, T5 was bursting at the seams before COVID, and the plans to expand it preceded finalization of the OGT designs.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:57 pm

AAplat4life wrote:
There’s a lot to criticize about the OGT, including it’s design and the overall poor integration with most of T3 and parts of T1 and all of T5. In theory when it’s completed, Star and oneworld members will move there and be closer to AA and UA. Skyteam members and other domestic carriers, including DL, are slated to operate out of T5. The thought was that connecting traffic among the various alliances would be minimal enough to handle this with existing methods such as buses or the people mover if it ever becomes operational again. I don’t recall any objections from DL on moving to T5 and this was all heavily negotiated with the airlines.

Of course, what sounded good in theory a few years back may not be ideal in the future, and the airline world has certainly changed unexpectedly and will continue to do so. When ORD moves to nondedicated gates, it will be possible for other airlines to move out of T5. Time will tell. However, T5 was bursting at the seams before COVID, and the plans to expand it preceded finalization of the OGT designs.


The ideal thing would be to eventually get rid of T5 entirely and bring everyone into the main terminal core and reconstruct it a la ATL. This way everyone can use the ground transportation options there.
 
MLIAA
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:51 am

BNAMealer wrote:
AAplat4life wrote:
There’s a lot to criticize about the OGT, including it’s design and the overall poor integration with most of T3 and parts of T1 and all of T5. In theory when it’s completed, Star and oneworld members will move there and be closer to AA and UA. Skyteam members and other domestic carriers, including DL, are slated to operate out of T5. The thought was that connecting traffic among the various alliances would be minimal enough to handle this with existing methods such as buses or the people mover if it ever becomes operational again. I don’t recall any objections from DL on moving to T5 and this was all heavily negotiated with the airlines.

Of course, what sounded good in theory a few years back may not be ideal in the future, and the airline world has certainly changed unexpectedly and will continue to do so. When ORD moves to nondedicated gates, it will be possible for other airlines to move out of T5. Time will tell. However, T5 was bursting at the seams before COVID, and the plans to expand it preceded finalization of the OGT designs.


The ideal thing would be to eventually get rid of T5 entirely and bring everyone into the main terminal core and reconstruct it a la ATL. This way everyone can use the ground transportation options there.


There just isn’t enough room for that. There’s also not enough room to move all UAX plus Air Canada plus Delta to the satellites while the OGT is being built.

The most sensible thing to do is what they are doing. Expand T5, eventually have Skyteam + cats & dogs over there. The OGT can’t be built until that’s done.

The satellites are specifically for United Express once they are displaced from T2.

My question is, will all the new international gates at the satellite and OGT be common use? Wouldn’t oneworld want to be at the OGT head house to be closer to T3, and Star in the C satellite to be closer to UA ops and the new UAX satellite? This would minimize connecting time, especially if you can avoid connecting from the L gates all the way to the first satellite (the one attached to C).

Also, any idea what the names of these concourses will be? A? D?
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
chicawgo
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:21 am

BNAMealer wrote:
chicawgo wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

I know. My point was saving money by NOT expanding T5 at all and leave DL/SkyTeam in the main terminal complex/future OGT. There is no reason to move DL to T5, all the US3 should be in the main terminal complex. ORD could have then focused all their resources on the OGT which is needed much more than T5 expansion.


I’m not sure you’re understanding. They need to MOVE DL to NEW GATES at T5 while they demolish T2 and then rebuild it. If they didn’t do this.... they would be DOWN probably 40-some gates for years if they didn’t move DL to T5


Not quite sure what you are getting at either. DL is already in T2, the satellites would replace the gates lost on T2 during construction. The OGT is more critically needed than an expansion of T5, and the US3 should all stay in the main terminal complex. Therefore, they should have forgone the T5 expansion for the get go and just focused on the OGT. Expanding T5 is a waste of money considering how it is disconnected from the rest of the airport.


As others have said... it’s not enough to make up for T2 in the meantime. AND, this allows ORD to have more gates earlier instead of waiting for the whole project to be complete. Even as is there aren’t going to be THAT many new gates because they’re building lots of bigger gates for larger aircraft.

Also... where would DL ticketing go in your plan? With United at T1?
 
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:39 pm

I am optimistic. I think there will be a major to return to some sort of normalcy in the 1st quarter of 2021. It will take a couple of years for the airlines to recover but they will. I believe if the OGT was finished on-time, which it won't be because the design is already delayed (I have my sources), the airlines would have recovered to pre-2020 conditions. Now, with the delays that were happening during the design phase, inevitable delays during construction and added COVID delays, the OGT will absolutely be needed by the time it is finished. ORD debt is one thing and will affect financing. But State of Illinois debt and City of Chicago dept won't have that much of a direct impact on the financing. Also, if we do slip into a recession, pricing for construction will come down or at least be put in check. If there is a recession, this is the perfect project to create jobs and stimulate the economy. I say, BUILD IT, and build it now!
 
ordpia
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:29 pm

Does anyone know who handles Royal Jordanian cargo at O’Hare?
Concorde 146 727 737 73G 742 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 300 319 320 321 343 346 CRJ ERJ ATR ATP CL604 LJ45 LJ60 BD700 GIV GV G650
 
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kngkyle
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:59 am

piedmontf284000 wrote:
The city is knee deep in debt, with a budget shortfall which will be well over 1.5 billion next year. The state is even worse, at the tune of over 5 billion. These are some very serious numbers. With air travel significantly down for the foreseeable future, there is absolutely no reason for the city to move forward with the OGT anytime soon, as there is no need for the added capacity. My guess, is that the city will push construction to 2025 and hope to complete it sometime in the 30's. They might also ditch the two satellite terminals to save on costs. Time will tell, but the city has to shore up it's finances first, travel (especially business) needs to get back to normal, and the airlines, who are also on the hook for construction costs, need to get out of the red and hopefully none go into bankruptcy.


The financial situation of the city and state has little to do with O'Hare, which is a separate entity to the city and state with a separate revenue stream. None of the money used for ORD21 was coming from the city or state governments. Now the overall decline in passenger traffic has certainly hurt O'Hares revenue stream and that of the airline partners, however this is a decade long project (or longer) and a temporary decrease in passenger traffic is not going to change the need for a new and expanded terminal.

Had the city known in advance there would be a global pandemic that caused flight volumes to drop by 50%+ for a year or two then I would hope they would have decided to take advantage of the situation and move quicker not slower, potentially allowing for the demolition of T2 and construction of the OGT simultaneously to the new concourses instead of staggered.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:30 am

kngkyle wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
The city is knee deep in debt, with a budget shortfall which will be well over 1.5 billion next year. The state is even worse, at the tune of over 5 billion. These are some very serious numbers. With air travel significantly down for the foreseeable future, there is absolutely no reason for the city to move forward with the OGT anytime soon, as there is no need for the added capacity. My guess, is that the city will push construction to 2025 and hope to complete it sometime in the 30's. They might also ditch the two satellite terminals to save on costs. Time will tell, but the city has to shore up it's finances first, travel (especially business) needs to get back to normal, and the airlines, who are also on the hook for construction costs, need to get out of the red and hopefully none go into bankruptcy.


The financial situation of the city and state has little to do with O'Hare, which is a separate entity to the city and state with a separate revenue stream. None of the money used for ORD21 was coming from the city or state governments. Now the overall decline in passenger traffic has certainly hurt O'Hares revenue stream and that of the airline partners, however this is a decade long project (or longer) and a temporary decrease in passenger traffic is not going to change the need for a new and expanded terminal.

Had the city known in advance there would be a global pandemic that caused flight volumes to drop by 50%+ for a year or two then I would hope they would have decided to take advantage of the situation and move quicker not slower, potentially allowing for the demolition of T2 and construction of the OGT simultaneously to the new concourses instead of staggered.


While you are correct that the airport is a separate entity to the city, the fact of the matter is that ORD is 100 percent owned by the city of Chicago, and thus the taxpayers of the city. It may be operated by a separate entity (CDA), but in the end all liabilities fall on the owners. As you probably already know, most of the revenue the airport receives is thru fees, paid for by the airlines thru their customers. Some revenues are in the form of capital grants which don't have to be paid back unless they are used irresponsibly, and unfortunately the city has a bad habit of doing just that. The rest of the money the airport uses to pay for expansions is thru city issued bonds. This is a form of debt issued by the city and paid back via revenue collected from O’Hare. As of December 31, 2019, the city’s bond debt was $18 billion. Now, what happens if the city starts defaulting on those said bonds? With air travel in it's current state, revenue from landing fees, parking fees, and advertisement have all seen double digit declines. Merchants and restaurants are closing, thus the loss of rent and additional tax revenue. Therefore, the CDA no longer can give the city the needed revenues to pay the bills and more importantly the bond debt. So the city will have to tap into other forms of revenues to get said money to pay the bond debt, otherwise it will default on the bondholders and that would be catastrophic for ORD. The city can ill afford to issue anymore bonds, and thus more debt, right now. They need to shore up both the airports revenue and their own before moving forward with O'Hare 21. It certainly doesn't help that Fitch just gave a negative outlook for O'Hare Airport. Per the Fitch rating

"The Negative Outlook reflects the substantial adverse impact on operating and financial performance due to the coronavirus and related containment measures, along with uncertainty around the timing and magnitude of recovery. A continuation of low activity levels into 2021 without an established trend of recovery would likely result in a rating downgrade to all of the airport's debt obligations."

https://www.fitchratings.com/research/i ... 10-09-2020
 
ckfred
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:45 pm

Here is the all important question. When will the ATS be operating? On Tuesday, my wife and I took our son to ORD. Since he is 17, she got to go out to the gate with him. I sat in the cell phone lot, until she came out at the baggage claim. While sitting in the cell phone lot, the test trains were running like it was regular operations. Test trains were running back in March, when I dropped off my wife for a flight to Tampa.

I know that the City has been bitten in the tush so many times, while trying to project a completion date. But, it seems to me that 7 months of testing should be sufficient to get the system up and running.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:20 pm

ckfred wrote:
Here is the all important question. When will the ATS be operating? On Tuesday, my wife and I took our son to ORD. Since he is 17, she got to go out to the gate with him. I sat in the cell phone lot, until she came out at the baggage claim. While sitting in the cell phone lot, the test trains were running like it was regular operations. Test trains were running back in March, when I dropped off my wife for a flight to Tampa.

I know that the City has been bitten in the tush so many times, while trying to project a completion date. But, it seems to me that 7 months of testing should be sufficient to get the system up and running.


You know, at this point, I'm beginning to wonder if it would have been more worth it to tear down and rebuild the whole system from scratch, with a different type of track and cars. That way, they wouldn't have had to custom build new cars for the existing (outdated) VAL tracks. I am wondering if compatibility issues are the reason it keeps getting delayed.
 
ckfred
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:49 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
ckfred wrote:
Here is the all important question. When will the ATS be operating? On Tuesday, my wife and I took our son to ORD. Since he is 17, she got to go out to the gate with him. I sat in the cell phone lot, until she came out at the baggage claim. While sitting in the cell phone lot, the test trains were running like it was regular operations. Test trains were running back in March, when I dropped off my wife for a flight to Tampa.

I know that the City has been bitten in the tush so many times, while trying to project a completion date. But, it seems to me that 7 months of testing should be sufficient to get the system up and running.


You know, at this point, I'm beginning to wonder if it would have been more worth it to tear down and rebuild the whole system from scratch, with a different type of track and cars. That way, they wouldn't have had to custom build new cars for the existing (outdated) VAL tracks. I am wondering if compatibility issues are the reason it keeps getting delayed.


I hadn't thought about that, but that's a good point. It's interesting that O'Hare's system became obsolete, despite being built in the late 80s/early 90s. The CTA rapid transit is the same gauge as the NYC subway system. But, because of the tight turns for the elevated tracks in the Loop, NYC rolling stock can't operate in Chicago.

However, knowing that Chicago has a history of projects falling behind and over budget, if they had done a complete rebuild of the tracks, starting when the extension to the rental car garage was being constructed, we would probably be looking at a longer time line.

The reconstruction of the Jane Byrne Interchange was supposed to take about 4.5 years. Now, the time line is 9 years, and the cost overrun is 33% and climbing. Granted, there have been a host of problems. It's common to find underground utilities are not where all of the maps indicated they should be. When they moved the curtain walls of Terminals 2 and 3 at ORD, they had the same problem. But one of the buildings at UIC is sinking, because of the excavation work. And work for the I-55/Lake Shore Drive interchange pulled funds away from the Byrne Interchange, slowing the project.

With the ATS tucked between the roadway around the terminals, the parking garage, and the Hilton, that would not leave a lot of room for cranes and other construction equipment to remove old track and install new track.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:04 pm

ckfred wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
ckfred wrote:
Here is the all important question. When will the ATS be operating? On Tuesday, my wife and I took our son to ORD. Since he is 17, she got to go out to the gate with him. I sat in the cell phone lot, until she came out at the baggage claim. While sitting in the cell phone lot, the test trains were running like it was regular operations. Test trains were running back in March, when I dropped off my wife for a flight to Tampa.

I know that the City has been bitten in the tush so many times, while trying to project a completion date. But, it seems to me that 7 months of testing should be sufficient to get the system up and running.


You know, at this point, I'm beginning to wonder if it would have been more worth it to tear down and rebuild the whole system from scratch, with a different type of track and cars. That way, they wouldn't have had to custom build new cars for the existing (outdated) VAL tracks. I am wondering if compatibility issues are the reason it keeps getting delayed.


I hadn't thought about that, but that's a good point. It's interesting that O'Hare's system became obsolete, despite being built in the late 80s/early 90s. The CTA rapid transit is the same gauge as the NYC subway system. But, because of the tight turns for the elevated tracks in the Loop, NYC rolling stock can't operate in Chicago.

However, knowing that Chicago has a history of projects falling behind and over budget, if they had done a complete rebuild of the tracks, starting when the extension to the rental car garage was being constructed, we would probably be looking at a longer time line.

The reconstruction of the Jane Byrne Interchange was supposed to take about 4.5 years. Now, the time line is 9 years, and the cost overrun is 33% and climbing. Granted, there have been a host of problems. It's common to find underground utilities are not where all of the maps indicated they should be. When they moved the curtain walls of Terminals 2 and 3 at ORD, they had the same problem. But one of the buildings at UIC is sinking, because of the excavation work. And work for the I-55/Lake Shore Drive interchange pulled funds away from the Byrne Interchange, slowing the project.

With the ATS tucked between the roadway around the terminals, the parking garage, and the Hilton, that would not leave a lot of room for cranes and other construction equipment to remove old track and install new track.


True, but OTOH, the Illinois Tollway completed the I-90 rebuilding/widening between Rockford and the Kennedy Expressway from 2013-2016 on time.

I think it would have been better to simply tear down and rebuild the whole system rather than attempting to adapt the VAL (which was even niche when it first opened) technology for today. Looking at videos of the SkyTrain in ATL, I just shake my head and think ORD could have done better.
 
SRQLOT
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Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:38 pm

Quick question, flying out this morning out of O’hare and I saw the gates on east side of T5. I think there is a long stretch of 4-5 gates??? So if a flight is departing can only one flight be boarded at a time? How about when arriving, wouldn’t that cause a bottle beck if 2 flights arrive at the same time? The gate walkway looks just so skinny just like a regular gate. Just curious.

Also on flightaware looks like almost all flights are delayed 15-25 minutes any reason for that?
LO LH CL BA AZ WN UA DL AA B6 NK G4 F9
717 733/7/8/9/M8 744 752/3 763 788 319/20/21 332/3 M90 RJ85 CR9 Q400 E7/95 (PA28,152)

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