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vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:04 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Thank you for the responses to my question! Very much appreciated.

I don't think I was very clear in what I was asking, and that's on me. I'm still not sure that even I know what exactly it was I was asking.

I suppose the closest I can think would be SEA-DTW and YVR or YYJ-YQG, even though SEA and YVR aren't nearly as close as SAN and TIJ:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SEA-DTW%2C+YVR-YQG%2C+YYJ-YQG&DU=nm&SU=kts&RS=best

I can see families in the South Bay of San Diego, many with close ties and frequent travels to Mexico, using TIJ-CJS as an alternative to SAN-ELP, but only on that route. Nothing else even comes close in terms of proximity, but with enough savvy, it's certainly possible.

As for the other points about SAN being one of Latin America's best domestic-U.S. airports, absolutely. I have heard many stories as well about BUF being one of Canada's most important domestic-U.S. airports, as a relatively short drive over the Niagara River can save hundreds of dollars per trip versus flying internationally out of Canada. The same being true as well for YVR & Washington state and SEA for British Columbia.

Just an unusual circumstance that for some reason yesterday utterly fascinated me.


Here's a thread about the possibility of future flights from TIJ to US cities on Volaris you might find interesting: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1431465&p=21676181&hilit=CBX#p2167618
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:24 pm

Some news regarding SAN...

Report from the still-happening SDCRAA Board Meeting:
>the board just passed a resolution to fund T1 replacement and associated airfield improvements (total cost of $3B!)
>The first thing on a long list of steps toward the replacement of T1 is the filing of the final (revised) EIR;
>the current timeline calls for the 1st phase of the terminal project -- 19 gates on the east end of the new terminal -- to open in October 2024;
>the 2nd phase, 11 more gates at the western end of the new terminal following demolition of current T1, is scheduled to open in Sept 2026
>the new T1 will therefore include 30 gates and this project does not do anything to T2E or toward addition of more gates to the west of gate 51.

Of interest to me is the fact that before construction begins on Phase 1, current gates 1, 1A & 2 will be demolished. At that point, WN will then be down a couple more gates!

Here's a link to some of the information: https://www.san.org/Airport-Projects

Hey, it's a start!

bb
 
timf
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:01 pm

SANFan wrote:
Here's a link to some of the information: https://www.san.org/Airport-Projects

Since it's not too obvious, the Airport Development Plan page is the one that relates to the T1 replacement.
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:38 pm

SANFan wrote:
Some news regarding SAN...

Report from the still-happening SDCRAA Board Meeting:
>the board just passed a resolution to fund T1 replacement and associated airfield improvements (total cost of $3B!)
>The first thing on a long list of steps toward the replacement of T1 is the filing of the final (revised) EIR;
>the current timeline calls for the 1st phase of the terminal project -- 19 gates on the east end of the new terminal -- to open in October 2024;
>the 2nd phase, 11 more gates at the western end of the new terminal following demolition of current T1, is scheduled to open in Sept 2026
>the new T1 will therefore include 30 gates and this project does not do anything to T2E or toward addition of more gates to the west of gate 51.

Of interest to me is the fact that before construction begins on Phase 1, current gates 1, 1A & 2 will be demolished. At that point, WN will then be down a couple more gates!

Here's a link to some of the information: https://www.san.org/Airport-Projects

Hey, it's a start!

bb


I see they plan to connect the new terminal to T2E ... does that mean there's no hope of a re-do of T2E?
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:18 pm

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
I see they plan to connect the new terminal to T2E ... does that mean there's no hope of a re-do of T2E?

To the best of my knowledge, the elimination/replacement of T2E is still in the overall, long term plan for SAN... apparently in the longer-term future, when the SDCRAA can scrape some more big bucks together!

There are also plans for more gates to be built west of T2W (west of gate 51) which will pretty much bring the gate count at SDIA to its maximum number, governed by the ops cap of our single runway; that total number is usually '61'. At that point, SAN will undoubtedly become slot constrained with no more growth permissible. It was mentioned during a presentation at the meeting that 40M pax per year is undoubtedly about the max SAN (at Lindbergh Field) will ever see. We should exceed 25M for 2019's total.

In a day or two, anyone can watch the video of the board meeting which contains some revelation of the future at SAN. (I watched it live this morning.) There's LOTS of info at SAN.org if anyone wants to dig through it. Actually the board meeting materials contain quite a bit of fresh stuff from today's meeting, related to the final EIR. Try this link:
https://www.san.org/DesktopModules/Brin ... &TabId=344

bb
 
ibthebigd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:21 pm

How much will Fees go up to pay for this?

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williaminsd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:07 am

Happy with the progress... any progress, but $3bil and no replacement for the miserable dungeon that is T2E? Ay, yi, yi...
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:40 am

Flights from LAX on Norwegian Air Shuttle -
Barcelona, London–Gatwick, Madrid, Paris–Charles de Gaulle;
Seasonal: Oslo–Gardermoen, Rome–Fiumicino

Trans-Atlantic flights from SAN airport
British Airways London–Heathrow
Lufthansa Frankfurt
Edelweiss Seasonal: Zurich

Presuming Norwegian doesn't shut down, it would sure be nice if they began flying to Tijuana airport.
 
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LindyFlight
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:21 am

Not sure if this was previously reported but Hainan is ending their PEK-TIJ-MEX on May 18, 2020. This comes as the Hainan group is struggling financially at the moment; they are also ending their PEK-LAS flight on March 29, 2020.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:17 am

SANFan wrote:
At that point, SAN will undoubtedly become slot constrained with no more growth permissible. It was mentioned during a presentation at the meeting that 40M pax per year is undoubtedly about the max SAN (at Lindbergh Field) will ever see. We should exceed 25M for 2019's total.


Which is a lot more than the 23M-26M that was the working number in the 2006 vote. But 40M may be less than a dozen years away.

Long before then a workable solution with TIJ should be worked out. I think that a US pre-clearance facility is the most practical solution. The lower costs of flying from TIJ should be used to offset the cost of the CBX.


Frontier Airlines given it's code share with Volaris ( 2.3% of SAN traffic & 6 year round destinations + 1 summer) should be the first to go to TIJ
Austin, Denver, Las Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix, San Antonio, Cincinnati*
 
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DL717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:58 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
SANFan wrote:
At that point, SAN will undoubtedly become slot constrained with no more growth permissible. It was mentioned during a presentation at the meeting that 40M pax per year is undoubtedly about the max SAN (at Lindbergh Field) will ever see. We should exceed 25M for 2019's total.


Which is a lot more than the 23M-26M that was the working number in the 2006 vote. But 40M may be less than a dozen years away.

Long before then a workable solution with TIJ should be worked out. I think that a US pre-clearance facility is the most practical solution. The lower costs of flying from TIJ should be used to offset the cost of the CBX.


Frontier Airlines given it's code share with Volaris ( 2.3% of SAN traffic & 6 year round destinations + 1 summer) should be the first to go to TIJ
Austin, Denver, Las Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix, San Antonio, Cincinnati*


You’re living on another planet if you think ultra-low cost passengers are going to get passports to fly out of TIJ on Frontier or any other airline to a domestic US airport (pre-clear or not), or that Frontier is going to leave SAN to operate at TIJ with the added cost and increased turn time (lost aircraft utilization) associated with a US carrier on foreign soil.

Not-going-to-happen-ever.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:24 pm

PacoMartin wrote:
Presuming Norwegian doesn't shut down, it would sure be nice if they began flying to Tijuana airport.


I see them as more likely to fly to SAN than TIJ as they're transitioning to serve more primary airports. Last month they announced they were moving the rest of their OAK flights to SFO. Better yields, better premium demand, better search engine visibility. While San Diego residents might eventually learn to search from TIJ in addition to SAN, the way bay area residents search a combination of SFO/OAK/SJC, Europeans are much less likely to know to try TIJ. Sure, the Norwegian site might show San Diego/Tijuana or similar, but third party sites won't.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:25 pm

williaminsd wrote:
Happy with the progress... any progress, but $3bil and no replacement for the miserable dungeon that is T2E? Ay, yi, yi...


They just showed a rendering of T-1 replacement on the local news, they said that they plan to break ground next year. It looks really nice. My guess is that most of the new T-1 will be built just east of the "banjos" so WN and the other and the other airlines can still use the old T-1 until the new terminal is finished. Once the new T-1 is done, the old T-1 and T-2E can be demolished, and the rest of the gates can be added.
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:51 pm

DL717 wrote:
You’re living on another planet if you think ultra-low cost passengers are going to get passports to fly out of TIJ on Frontier or any other airline to a domestic US airport (pre-clear or not), or that Frontier is going to leave SAN to operate at TIJ with the added cost and increased turn time (lost aircraft utilization) associated with a US carrier on foreign soil.

Not-going-to-happen-ever.

:checkmark:

I can't comprehend those who think people -- or airlines -- on this side of the int'l border will go to TIJ to fly to U.S. destinations. That becomes an int'l flight with all the added fees, taxes, regulations and restrictions. That's exactly the same scenario as San Diegans flying from SAN to Mexico, an int'l flight, as opposed to flying domestically from TIJ to Mexican destinations. Even Mexicans flying from TIJ into U.S. destinations will pay more than if they cross the border and fly domestically from SAN to those same U.S. cities.

There have been attempts at cross-border flights from TIJ (to LAX and OAK that I remember) that lasted a very short time. The idea has so far not caught on, either from a pax point-of-view or from the cx outlook. (And these were long before the CBX was built.)

I think all this talk of TIJ becoming a 2nd San Diego airport are becoming a bit overboard. I just don't see any huge changes in the way people north or south of the border fly domestically or internationally. Sure, some will really work the numbers and go thru serious gyrations to save money but seriously, the majority of air travelers will continue to do just what they do today.

bb
 
williaminsd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:00 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
williaminsd wrote:
Happy with the progress... any progress, but $3bil and no replacement for the miserable dungeon that is T2E? Ay, yi, yi...


They just showed a rendering of T-1 replacement on the local news, they said that they plan to break ground next year. It looks really nice. My guess is that most of the new T-1 will be built just east of the "banjos" so WN and the other and the other airlines can still use the old T-1 until the new terminal is finished. Once the new T-1 is done, the old T-1 and T-2E can be demolished, and the rest of the gates can be added.


It isn't clear to me if the three bil covers T2E replacement or just T1. You could very well be right. I hope so... and I agree that these conceptuals look nice.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:05 pm

I saw on another thread that HU is discontinuing the PEK-TIJ-MEX flights. Is this true? Too bad HU couldn't try PEK-SAN-MEX and provide a direct non-stop link to MEX in the procees however our curfew probably dosen't provide the flexibility that flight needed.
SFO=NoCal LAX=SoCal SAN=LoCal
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:35 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
How much will Fees go up to pay for this?

I don't know what fees you are asking about. The carriers are paying some of the costs involved so fares may generally increase some, parking may increase as well as there will be a large parking structure built as part of the T1 replacement. This is pretty much a fact of life these days with any expensive new project but what is the alternative?

williaminsd wrote:
Happy with the progress... any progress, but $3bil and no replacement for the miserable dungeon that is T2E? Ay, yi, yi...

Oh now William', you call T2E a dungeon? How do you describe T1 then? ;)

This project is HUGE: a brand new 30-gate terminal, many additional buildings and major projects around the airfield, plus a whole new land-side roadway system and parking structure. What they've got on the table now is monumental, both $$ and time-wise so the replacement connection 'terminal' between the new T1 and T2W (aka the T2E replacement) should be next up.

But heck, they have to get the current project done first in order to have room to place AA and AS so T2E can be demolished and replaced. The 30 gates will accomplish that.

BTW, you can see plans in the previously mentioned links that show the final ADP, including the T2E replacement and the new gates to the west of T2. You might have to search a bit but they're there. There're also plenty of good descriptions/lists of all the associated projects including time-lines and costs.

Two more things I'll mention. The terminal replacement is ~$2.2B of the total project cost; the other billion is for the other projects. It was also mentioned that ALL this work, much of it right in the middle of the airport, has to be done within a major, fully functional, 25M pax/year airport. The logistics of this project must be staggering!

Anyway, I'm thrilled to see this finally happening! We've got to start somewhere and I think this is the obvious choice. IMO, good for the SDCRAA!

bb
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:56 pm

SANFan wrote:
I can't comprehend those who think people -- or airlines -- on this side of the int'l border will go to TIJ to fly to U.S. destinations. That becomes an int'l flight with all the added fees, taxes, regulations and restrictions. That's exactly the same scenario as San Diegans flying from SAN to Mexico, an int'l flight, as opposed to flying domestically from TIJ to Mexican destinations. Even Mexicans flying from TIJ into U.S. destinations will pay more than if they cross the border and fly domestically from SAN to those same U.S. cities.
bb

Exactly!! I keep having to repeat myself on this:
SAN and TIJ are close to each other. SAN has the U.S destinations covered, whereas TIJ has Mexico covered. If people want to fly domestically to U.S destinations, they go to SAN, if they want fly domestically to Mexican destinations, they go to TIJ. The CBX only makes it easier to catch those flights to Mexico. BA, JL, or LH is not going to leave SAN and move to TIJ for whatever reason.If they wanted to move to TIJ, they would have done so already. SAN and TIJ complement each other, and not compete for flights.
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:45 pm

DL717 wrote:
PacoMartin wrote:
SANFan wrote:
At that point, SAN will undoubtedly become slot constrained with no more growth permissible. It was mentioned during a presentation at the meeting that 40M pax per year is undoubtedly about the max SAN (at Lindbergh Field) will ever see. We should exceed 25M for 2019's total.


Which is a lot more than the 23M-26M that was the working number in the 2006 vote. But 40M may be less than a dozen years away.

Long before then a workable solution with TIJ should be worked out. I think that a US pre-clearance facility is the most practical solution. The lower costs of flying from TIJ should be used to offset the cost of the CBX.


Frontier Airlines given it's code share with Volaris ( 2.3% of SAN traffic & 6 year round destinations + 1 summer) should be the first to go to TIJ
Austin, Denver, Las Vegas, Orlando, Phoenix, San Antonio, Cincinnati*


You’re living on another planet if you think ultra-low cost passengers are going to get passports to fly out of TIJ on Frontier or any other airline to a domestic US airport (pre-clear or not), or that Frontier is going to leave SAN to operate at TIJ with the added cost and increased turn time (lost aircraft utilization) associated with a US carrier on foreign soil.

Not-going-to-happen-ever.


We're going to find out if San Diegans are willing to cross the border for cheaper international flights in late 2022 or early 2023. They've already started constructing a new building at TIJ that I've mentioned before in this thread. Norwegian may consider the option and act upon it just like Hainan did.

But in a presentation dated November 2018, it seemed liked GAP, who owns the airport there, is planning a future terminal C building attached by a long hallway to the building under construction that could possibly be used for connecting flights into the US. In theory this future terminal C could have US immigration preclearance staff operating on Mexican soil (as in Canada). I'm sure GAP would attempt to set that up so incoming international flights can have on-ward connecting flights to US destinations with no Mexican customs or immigration check.

It would also be built close to the already existing FedEX cargo building in operation there. I don't know if or how the FedEX flights from TIJ to Memphis are being checked. I imagine that FedEx would want some kind of US preclearance? I'm also imagining that if US officials were present at TIJ airport checking cargo flights they could also check regular airline passengers?

I would agree with your "not-going-to-happen" view if things weren't already happening at TIJ. Examples: FedEX cargo, Hainan flights from China, demolition&construction work, architectural renderings, and stated goals by CBX and GAP representatives.

If San Diego chooses to not build a new international airport ever, isn't good that "life found a way", to quote Jeff Goldblum in "Jurassic Park", to get passengers over to Europe and Asia in a different way at a cheaper price? Isn't a good thing a company took a super-duper-gigantic gamble trying to build a cross-border bridge for profit and it made them huuuuge returns? In fact, when I first heard of the CBX idea as a rumor I was 0.00% convinced it could ever be built. Here we are 4 years after the grand opening and they've managed to get something like 4 million people a year to use it with little more than word-of-mouth advertisement.

I admit having Frontier or Southwest Airlines at TIJ is a stretch of the imagination at this point. But it might not be come later this decade. It's something that should be explored as a possibility to relieve pressure on SAN if it's close to capacity.

In theory, I can envision a future set-up working something like this for San Diegans catching a flight to a US destination via TIJ:
-passengers get dropped off at the CBX bridge,
-they walk south into Mexico
-arrival in the in-transit area currently being built
-they're not checked by Mexico immigration or customs 'cause they choose not to leave the secure area and are not officially admitted into Mexico
-they walk east in a long, secured hallway to a future terminal C
-they get some some kind of US pre-clearance there just like in places in Canada
-they catch a flight to a US destination (on a Mexican carrier like Volaris much more likely than Frontier)
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:48 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
I saw on another thread that HU is discontinuing the PEK-TIJ-MEX flights. Is this true? Too bad HU couldn't try PEK-SAN-MEX and provide a direct non-stop link to MEX in the procees however our curfew probably dosen't provide the flexibility that flight needed.


I've searched all over the internet, in English or Spanish, for news about this without success. If true, it was a fun experiment while it lasted. Hainan was first but I doubt they'll be the last to try TIJ.
 
AirFiero
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:51 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
SANFan wrote:
I can't comprehend those who think people -- or airlines -- on this side of the int'l border will go to TIJ to fly to U.S. destinations. That becomes an int'l flight with all the added fees, taxes, regulations and restrictions. That's exactly the same scenario as San Diegans flying from SAN to Mexico, an int'l flight, as opposed to flying domestically from TIJ to Mexican destinations. Even Mexicans flying from TIJ into U.S. destinations will pay more than if they cross the border and fly domestically from SAN to those same U.S. cities.
bb

Exactly!! I keep having to repeat myself on this:
SAN and TIJ are close to each other. SAN has the U.S destinations covered, whereas TIJ has Mexico covered. If people want to fly domestically to U.S destinations, they go to SAN, if they want fly domestically to Mexican destinations, they go to TIJ. The CBX only makes it easier to catch those flights to Mexico. BA, JL, or LH is not going to leave SAN and move to TIJ for whatever reason.If they wanted to move to TIJ, they would have done so already. SAN and TIJ complement each other, and not compete for flights.


Tijuana has a population of 1.6 million and has a huge manufacturing and business market. The border crossing are amongst the busiest in the world. It can take hours to cross that border. It’s difficult for me to believe that some airlines can’t make a go at service from TIJ to LAX, SFO, etc and that it is preferable to deal with the border crossing and traffic to get to SAN.
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:11 pm

SANFan wrote:
DL717 wrote:
You’re living on another planet if you think ultra-low cost passengers are going to get passports to fly out of TIJ on Frontier or any other airline to a domestic US airport (pre-clear or not), or that Frontier is going to leave SAN to operate at TIJ with the added cost and increased turn time (lost aircraft utilization) associated with a US carrier on foreign soil.

Not-going-to-happen-ever.

:checkmark:

I can't comprehend those who think people -- or airlines -- on this side of the int'l border will go to TIJ to fly to U.S. destinations. That becomes an int'l flight with all the added fees, taxes, regulations and restrictions. That's exactly the same scenario as San Diegans flying from SAN to Mexico, an int'l flight, as opposed to flying domestically from TIJ to Mexican destinations. Even Mexicans flying from TIJ into U.S. destinations will pay more than if they cross the border and fly domestically from SAN to those same U.S. cities.

There have been attempts at cross-border flights from TIJ (to LAX and OAK that I remember) that lasted a very short time. The idea has so far not caught on, either from a pax point-of-view or from the cx outlook. (And these were long before the CBX was built.)

I think all this talk of TIJ becoming a 2nd San Diego airport are becoming a bit overboard. I just don't see any huge changes in the way people north or south of the border fly domestically or internationally. Sure, some will really work the numbers and go thru serious gyrations to save money but seriously, the majority of air travelers will continue to do just what they do today.

bb


I mostly agree with you.

Yes, I doubt US carriers will every fly TIJ to US destinations. I can only envision it if decades down the road there were lots of incoming international flights from Asia at TIJ that needed more connecting flights to Chicago, let's say, at 3am.

However, I can envision Volaris trying TIJ to US flights again and they run some killer specials. Even with international fees tacked on, their labor costs are low so they can pass on lower fares. Jut for kicks I compared SAN-ELP vs TIJ-CJS over the 4th of July weekend (not international, I know). The price difference was close to $100 per ticket. Very, very few would go through the hassle of an option like that now. But I think more would if they didn't have to deal with Mexican officials' visa BS (even if they're within their right) and they had US preclearance set up at TIJ.

GAP and CBX seem to listen to airlines' and passengers' suggestions and concerns then state and execute grand plans that seemed unlikely at first listen. I imagine it's easier for them to build stuff south of the border without intense environmental or public scrutiny. I know they're working on setting up the right conditions so more people use their bridge and airport. Of course they'll be searching to increase their profits in the process. :-)
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:36 pm

AirFiero wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
SANFan wrote:
I can't comprehend those who think people -- or airlines -- on this side of the int'l border will go to TIJ to fly to U.S. destinations. That becomes an int'l flight with all the added fees, taxes, regulations and restrictions. That's exactly the same scenario as San Diegans flying from SAN to Mexico, an int'l flight, as opposed to flying domestically from TIJ to Mexican destinations. Even Mexicans flying from TIJ into U.S. destinations will pay more than if they cross the border and fly domestically from SAN to those same U.S. cities.
bb

Exactly!! I keep having to repeat myself on this:
SAN and TIJ are close to each other. SAN has the U.S destinations covered, whereas TIJ has Mexico covered. If people want to fly domestically to U.S destinations, they go to SAN, if they want fly domestically to Mexican destinations, they go to TIJ. The CBX only makes it easier to catch those flights to Mexico. BA, JL, or LH is not going to leave SAN and move to TIJ for whatever reason.If they wanted to move to TIJ, they would have done so already. SAN and TIJ complement each other, and not compete for flights.


Tijuana has a population of 1.6 million and has a huge manufacturing and business market. The border crossing are amongst the busiest in the world. It can take hours to cross that border. It’s difficult for me to believe that some airlines can’t make a go at service from TIJ to LAX, SFO, etc and that it is preferable to deal with the border crossing and traffic to get to SAN.


Delta used to fly TIJ-LAX back in the 90s.

Yes, that regular pedestrian border wait at San Ysidro or Otay can be awful during the holidays. But it provided enough profit motive for the CBX bridge to get built (a blessing sometimes).
 
williaminsd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:41 pm

SANFan wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
How much will Fees go up to pay for this?

I don't know what fees you are asking about. The carriers are paying some of the costs involved so fares may generally increase some, parking may increase as well as there will be a large parking structure built as part of the T1 replacement. This is pretty much a fact of life these days with any expensive new project but what is the alternative?

williaminsd wrote:
Happy with the progress... any progress, but $3bil and no replacement for the miserable dungeon that is T2E? Ay, yi, yi...

Oh now William', you call T2E a dungeon? How do you describe T1 then? ;)

This project is HUGE: a brand new 30-gate terminal, many additional buildings and major projects around the airfield, plus a whole new land-side roadway system and parking structure. What they've got on the table now is monumental, both $$ and time-wise so the replacement connection 'terminal' between the new T1 and T2W (aka the T2E replacement) should be next up.

But heck, they have to get the current project done first in order to have room to place AA and AS so T2E can be demolished and replaced. The 30 gates will accomplish that.

BTW, you can see plans in the previously mentioned links that show the final ADP, including the T2E replacement and the new gates to the west of T2. You might have to search a bit but they're there. There're also plenty of good descriptions/lists of all the associated projects including time-lines and costs.

Two more things I'll mention. The terminal replacement is ~$2.2B of the total project cost; the other billion is for the other projects. It was also mentioned that ALL this work, much of it right in the middle of the airport, has to be done within a major, fully functional, 25M pax/year airport. The logistics of this project must be staggering!

Anyway, I'm thrilled to see this finally happening! We've got to start somewhere and I think this is the obvious choice. IMO, good for the SDCRAA!

bb


Ha! About 1000 years ago (well, the 80s), my GF lived in Los Angeles while I pined away the lonely hours between waves in Solana Beach. Because the train back then only ran 2x/day, I often took the Greyhound bus, which stopped at the old Rexall Drug Store on PCH, to see her. Sometimes I would catch the last bus out, which deposited you into Downtown LA at well past 2:00 in the morning.

Downtown LA back then was straight out of Mad Max, only with more mohawks and only slightly less leather. When disembarking, I'd step over the crowds of passed-out vagrants and druggies, and step around the cheap hookers and their menacing pimps, both of whom were well strung-out by that time of night and desperate for just one more trick, usually aggressively so.

Even on the coolest nights, it was always steaming inside that terminal because of the way everyone was packed inside, and everyone wore a certain glean across their furtive faces. It smelled of urine, wine and vomit, and far too often you could see the source of any aroma.

My GF rarely stopped to pick me up. Upon seeing me in front, she would slow down, lean over to unlock the door, and with a slight nudge and a tap of the brake, swing the door open so that I could leap onto passenger seat and we could escape into the night...

There are times when T1 reminds me of that Greyhound station. Does that answer your question BB?

Delighted to see this project moving forward at last...
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:47 pm

williaminsd wrote:
SANFan wrote:
Oh now William', you call T2E a dungeon? How do you describe T1 then? ;)

Ha! About 1000 years ago (well, the 80s), my GF lived in Los Angeles while I pined away the lonely hours between waves in Solana Beach. Because the train back then only ran 2x/day, I often took the Greyhound bus, which stopped at the old Rexall Drug Store on PCH, to see her. Sometimes I would catch the last bus out, which deposited you into Downtown LA at well past 2:00 in the morning.

Downtown LA back then was straight out of Mad Max, only with more mohawks and only slightly less leather. When disembarking, I'd step over the crowds of passed-out vagrants and druggies, and step around the cheap hookers and their menacing pimps, both of whom were well strung-out by that time of night and desperate for just one more trick, usually aggressively so.

Even on the coolest nights, it was always steaming inside that terminal because of the way everyone was packed inside, and everyone wore a certain glean across their furtive faces. It smelled of urine, wine and vomit, and far too often you could see the source of any aroma.

There are times when T1 reminds me of that Greyhound station. Does that answer your question BB?

Yikes, next time I'll think twice about asking THAT question! And I was sure SDIA has a urine-wine-and-vomit removal crew that sweeps thru T1 every night...!

I will admit that the terminal is usually VERY crowded and way under-concessioned but, well, let's agree that it definitely needs to be replaced! I am very happy that we have finally arrived at this point in its replacement -- the start! (And hopefully the EIR doesn't get hung up in any way.)

bb
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:09 am

Here's a recent news article (in Spanish) that talks about the "Centro de Conexiones Aereas con Asia" they're currently building in TJ. I've also seen it called "Nuevo Edificio Procesador de Pasajeros". Maybe that was a working project title?
https://www.uniradioinforma.com/noticia ... -asia.html

Officials met to work on possible open skies agreements, immigration control, access, and import/export laws (as far as I could tell). My spanish isn't 100%.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:06 am

vedatil4 wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
I saw on another thread that HU is discontinuing the PEK-TIJ-MEX flights. Is this true? Too bad HU couldn't try PEK-SAN-MEX and provide a direct non-stop link to MEX in the procees however our curfew probably dosen't provide the flexibility that flight needed.


I've searched all over the internet, in English or Spanish, for news about this without success. If true, it was a fun experiment while it lasted. Hainan was first but I doubt they'll be the last to try TIJ.


I found it on Wikipedia, but it doesn't say why Hainan is discontinuing service, I doubt it will be anytime soon before another airline tries it. Remember Aeromexico was doing MEX-TIJ-NRT and they also flew MEX-TIJ-PVG. Hainan was the third try.
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vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:41 am

SANMAN66 wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
I saw on another thread that HU is discontinuing the PEK-TIJ-MEX flights. Is this true? Too bad HU couldn't try PEK-SAN-MEX and provide a direct non-stop link to MEX in the procees however our curfew probably dosen't provide the flexibility that flight needed.


I've searched all over the internet, in English or Spanish, for news about this without success. If true, it was a fun experiment while it lasted. Hainan was first but I doubt they'll be the last to try TIJ.


I found it on Wikipedia, but it doesn't say why Hainan is discontinuing service, I doubt it will be anytime soon before another airline tries it. Remember Aeromexico was doing MEX-TIJ-NRT and they also flew MEX-TIJ-PVG. Hainan was the third try.


I'm predicting Emirates may try after the in-transit terminal is completed in 2022. They started flying to Mexico City last month. They also set up a codeshare with Interjet which will allow people to buy TIJ-MEX-BCN-DXB tickets. https://www.busiweek.com/emirates-goes- ... -airlines/

The current government is letting them in to compete with Aeromexico even after the unions cried foul. (To delight of many BTW. Aeromexico does some serious gouging during holiday peak times).

The main purpose of the TIJ pit stop on the AeroMexico or Hainan flights was refueling before continuing to Mexico City which sits at a high altitude. I think it's more the Volaris Costa Rica flights coming from Central America which failed that have more direct lessons for GAP to learn from. Those flights had TIJ as the final destination and most of the passengers were heading to LA. Passengers coming up from San Jose Costa Rica, for example, had a convoluted double-customs and double-immigration checks when crossing the border. The in-transit terminal building is a solution to this problem.

I'd love for Emirates to fly to San Diego someday. But I know Delta, for example, doesn't like the competition and would throw monkeywrenches into the plan. Having one runway and a curfew to boot doesn't help either.

UAE citizens enjoy visa free travel to Spain and Mexico. They'd only have to be concerned about US visas when using the CBX to cross into the US.
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:47 am

SANFan wrote:
I think all this talk of TIJ becoming a 2nd San Diego airport are becoming a bit overboard. I just don't see any huge changes in the way people north or south of the border fly domestically or internationally. Sure, some will really work the numbers and go thru serious gyrations to save money but seriously, the majority of air travelers will continue to do just what they do today.

bb


This is certainly one of the more exhausting topics in this thread IMO
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:53 am

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
SANFan wrote:
I think all this talk of TIJ becoming a 2nd San Diego airport are becoming a bit overboard. I just don't see any huge changes in the way people north or south of the border fly domestically or internationally. Sure, some will really work the numbers and go thru serious gyrations to save money but seriously, the majority of air travelers will continue to do just what they do today.

bb


This is certainly one of the more exhausting topics in this thread IMO


US airlines should be a little concerned about the possibility of competing on an almost level playing field with the likes of Volaris, Emirates, or Norwegian.
 
Wingtips56
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:01 am

The SAN vs. TIJ topic is truly worthy of it's own thread and I think it should be all moved off into a new thread. Rebuild this thread on topic for what is actually happening at SAN/San Diego/Lindbergh Field, as that's all getting lost here.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC
 
maps4ltd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:54 am

williaminsd wrote:
Happy with the progress... any progress, but $3bil and no replacement for the miserable dungeon that is T2E? Ay, yi, yi...


It's California.
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JAAlbert
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:15 am

Nice to hear that the Circles of Death and Despair are coming to an end! Everyone should fly out of terminal one before it's knocked down so we can tell our grandchildren what we had to put up with back in the day. :D
 
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DL717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:20 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
Exactly!! I keep having to repeat myself on this:
SAN and TIJ are close to each other. SAN has the U.S destinations covered, whereas TIJ has Mexico covered. If people want to fly domestically to U.S destinations, they go to SAN, if they want fly domestically to Mexican destinations, they go to TIJ. The CBX only makes it easier to catch those flights to Mexico. BA, JL, or LH is not going to leave SAN and move to TIJ for whatever reason.If they wanted to move to TIJ, they would have done so already. SAN and TIJ complement each other, and not compete for flights.


Tijuana has a population of 1.6 million and has a huge manufacturing and business market. The border crossing are amongst the busiest in the world. It can take hours to cross that border. It’s difficult for me to believe that some airlines can’t make a go at service from TIJ to LAX, SFO, etc and that it is preferable to deal with the border crossing and traffic to get to SAN.


Delta used to fly TIJ-LAX back in the 90s.

Yes, that regular pedestrian border wait at San Ysidro or Otay can be awful during the holidays. But it provided enough profit motive for the CBX bridge to get built (a blessing sometimes).


:roll: Pure comedy.

Wingtips56 wrote:
The SAN vs. TIJ topic is truly worthy of it's own thread and I think it should be all moved off into a new thread. Rebuild this thread on topic for what is actually happening at SAN/San Diego/Lindbergh Field, as that's all getting lost here.


Agreed. This cross border pipe dream stuff is just silly. It’s an efficient way to get to domestic Mexico destinations. Nothing more, nothing less. It’s why all of the Asia service is gone by the end of this month. People need to stop trying to make it more than it really is.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:42 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
How much will Fees go up to pay for this?

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Not sure this matters. They need a new terminal. Terminals cost money. Do it now for $3 billion or later for $6 billion. Airlines view terminal infrastructure costs on a systemwide basis. It may cost more in San Diego to operate, but there are plenty of airports they fly into that have little or no infrastructure costs. The higher cost of operating at one airport gets spread around the system making the impact negligible. New terminal infrastructure has been badly needed at several major airports, especially La Guardia where they are spending $8 billion. The airlines are finally healthy enough to make it work.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:02 pm

https://www.san.org/Airport-ADP

Here's a link I received this morning detailing the general plan for T1. There has been a tendency to throw out lots of plans but never to say officially, "this is it". Anything that keeps that hideous Terminal 2 East, however, dooms certain airlines to substandard & crowded facilities. Without a serious makeover, it will be the embarrassment of an other-wise state-of-the-art airport facility. But the plan is to have everything connected post-security, so one will not be "trapped" in one small area, like the current banjos in T1.

Everyone paid for the upgrades to Terminal 2 West and the international terminal, so it would be logical to assume that fees will be assessed properly to ensure that all facilities are equally excellent. With continued expansion of numbers, the yields have to be high enough out of SAN for airlines to want to continue to do business. And nobody wants the new terminal built ASAP as does Southwest. We know that the number of connecting passengers at SAN is only going to continue to grow, and having all gates connected airside will make operations a LOT easier!
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:05 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
Nice to hear that the Circles of Death and Despair are coming to an end! Everyone should fly out of terminal one before it's knocked down so we can tell our grandchildren what we had to put up with back in the day. :D


I really doubt that the "banjos" will be missed. Everytime the local news reports something about SAN, they almost always report from T-1.
PSA Gives you a lift!
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:11 pm

I agree that TIJ -- and, IMHO, the CBX -- should now have their own thread. After all, even though TIJ and SAN are only about 35 miles apart, they are in different countries and each has its own large catchment area even though they do overlap.

One of you primarily interested in TIJ should go ahead and start that thread; you know who you are. No permission is required or anything. (I would recommend adding a link between that new thread and this one might help.)

RE: SAN's ADP and T1 replacement, the drawings/renderings of the new T1 that can be found in the various materials show a beautiful, open, terminal with lots of glass. It is mentioned that these are just draft ideas since the design stage for T1 has not really begun yet. But I think we will all be proud of the design and the look of everything.

One of the SDCRAA board members even brought up the use of palm trees in the conceptual drawings, saying that they are very poor choices and are essentially more like grass than trees -- bad for the carbon footprint. An airport representative involved with upcoming design and building kind of laughed and reminded everyone that these are absolutely very preliminary renderings just to give folks a feeling of what may be to come; the trees may change!

According to the timeline provided, the designing of the terminal project appears to be ready to start immediately, and take ~17 months. Construction of phase 1 -- the first 19 gates -- is set to begin ~ Sept 2021 with the opening sometime in 1Q2024. I'm guessing we'll start seeing accurate renderings maybe this fall? (Sorry, I know some of this has been posted already in this thread.)

bb
 
williaminsd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:29 pm

Looks like Alaska goes back to daily 4x service SAN-SMF starting March 19. No mainline though with all flights E175s. I got this from Flightsfrom.com, but confirmed for now with a few dummy resos on the Alaska site. Btw - Flightsfrom shows that with Alaska back to 4x, combined (with Southwest) number of flights between the two cities M-F is a staggering 19 a day!
 
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:24 pm

I just wanted to add a couple more thoughts about SAN's upcoming projects, as well as those NOT so upcoming.

There appears to be lots of concern about the horror that is T2E. Keep in mind that I am in no way associated with the airport so these are MY opinions and are based on what I've read and seen only.

During the upcoming projects at SAN, for the next several years (thru fall of 2026 in fact) the airport is going to be one helluva mess, everywhere on all 661 acres! In addition to the T1 rebuild known as Package 1 -- involving moving historical buildings off the building site, demolition of many other buildings, site prep, building the new terminal, then moving the cx out of current T1 into the new T1 as well as a whole new roadway system to access the airport and get airport-bound auto traffic off Harbor Drive -- there is Package 2 which involves airside improvements, inc the addition of Taxiway Alpha & the relo of portions of existing taxiways and huge amounts of tarmac creation around the new T1. Then there's Package 3 which is the building of a brand new 4-story Admin Bldg to house all the airport and SDCRAA operations, to be built on the site of all those temp trailers/bldgs at the western edge of the airport's property, west of gate 51, and Package 4 which is the new 5-story parking structure and transport center to be located in front of the new T1. (There are many additional and smaller sub-projects -- I believe already approved and underway -- such as a new storm-water retention system, various support buildings on the North side, an airline support building for belly-cargo and provisioning, etc., that will also be taking place during this same time period.)

Can you even imagine how all these 4 Packages will affect airport access, (car traffic), terminal parking, aircraft movement and potential delays, air quality, etc., etc.? This is, I'm guessing, why T2 in its entirety will be left alone during this phase of the ADP. Also, remember that new-T1 has to be entirely built, all 30 gates, in order to have a place for AA and AS to go to before any demolishing of their current home, T2E, can be done, followed by replacement gates.

Even if the airport could have come up with the additional money to include T2E replacement in with all the rest of this, I think they would have been crazy to do so. It would have meant all the additional demolishing and construction of another chunk of the airport and added to the overall time involved. I think they made a very wise choice -- taking care of the worst terminal that affects the most airport users, first. Pax stats show 12M pax/year now move thru T1! Everyone agrees -- its replacement has to be done NOW! I'm not sure how much breathing room SDIA will have once the entire T1 is done (30 gates worth) before they need those 8 or so gates that will someday replace T2E plus the additional gates due to be built west of gate 51 in the future. We are after all talking about 6 years worth of pax growth until all of T1 is rebuilt, rapidly heading toward that 40M pax cap...

I hope this helps try to explain a bit about the upcoming project, at least as I see it.

bb
 
ibthebigd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:34 pm

If someone lives in North County say Oceanside or Carlsbad would those people consider flying out of SNA to avoid the mess that SAN will be?

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jplatts
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:41 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
If someone lives in North County say Oceanside or Carlsbad would those people consider flying out of SNA to avoid the mess that SAN will be?


WN has had to drop some nonstop routes out of SNA such as SNA-AUS/MDW/DAL/HOU/MCI/PDX/STL/SEA in the last 3 years due to WN losing slots at SNA starting in January 2017.

SAN also has nonstop service to destinations that aren't served nonstop out of SNA. SAN is also closer to Oceanside and Carlsbad than SNA is.
 
williaminsd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:17 pm

SANFan wrote:
I just wanted to add a couple more thoughts about SAN's upcoming projects, as well as those NOT so upcoming.

There appears to be lots of concern about the horror that is T2E. Keep in mind that I am in no way associated with the airport so these are MY opinions and are based on what I've read and seen only.

During the upcoming projects at SAN, for the next several years (thru fall of 2026 in fact) the airport is going to be one helluva mess, everywhere on all 661 acres! In addition to the T1 rebuild known as Package 1 -- involving moving historical buildings off the building site, demolition of many other buildings, site prep, building the new terminal, then moving the cx out of current T1 into the new T1 as well as a whole new roadway system to access the airport and get airport-bound auto traffic off Harbor Drive -- there is Package 2 which involves airside improvements, inc the addition of Taxiway Alpha & the relo of portions of existing taxiways and huge amounts of tarmac creation around the new T1. Then there's Package 3 which is the building of a brand new 4-story Admin Bldg to house all the airport and SDCRAA operations, to be built on the site of all those temp trailers/bldgs at the western edge of the airport's property, west of gate 51, and Package 4 which is the new 5-story parking structure and transport center to be located in front of the new T1. (There are many additional and smaller sub-projects -- I believe already approved and underway -- such as a new storm-water retention system, various support buildings on the North side, an airline support building for belly-cargo and provisioning, etc., that will also be taking place during this same time period.)

Can you even imagine how all these 4 Packages will affect airport access, (car traffic), terminal parking, aircraft movement and potential delays, air quality, etc., etc.? This is, I'm guessing, why T2 in its entirety will be left alone during this phase of the ADP. Also, remember that new-T1 has to be entirely built, all 30 gates, in order to have a place for AA and AS to go to before any demolishing of their current home, T2E, can be done, followed by replacement gates.

Even if the airport could have come up with the additional money to include T2E replacement in with all the rest of this, I think they would have been crazy to do so. It would have meant all the additional demolishing and construction of another chunk of the airport and added to the overall time involved. I think they made a very wise choice -- taking care of the worst terminal that affects the most airport users, first. Pax stats show 12M pax/year now move thru T1! Everyone agrees -- its replacement has to be done NOW! I'm not sure how much breathing room SDIA will have once the entire T1 is done (30 gates worth) before they need those 8 or so gates that will someday replace T2E plus the additional gates due to be built west of gate 51 in the future. We are after all talking about 6 years worth of pax growth until all of T1 is rebuilt, rapidly heading toward that 40M pax cap...

I hope this helps try to explain a bit about the upcoming project, at least as I see it.

bb


I think it's also important to remember that T2E was completed in 1979, when many people were convinced that Lindbergh would be replaced by an entirely new airport at Mira Mar or elsewhere in the region in the not too distant future. I have no doubt officials were hesitant to spend too much money on a facility that would "soon" be replaced.

That doesn't make T2E any less a, um, dungeon, but perhaps affords some insight as to why they built it this way...

That we're seeing so much construction now is a taciturn acknowledgement that Lindbergh is here to stay as the San Diego area's primary airport.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:55 pm

williaminsd wrote:
I think it's also important to remember that T2E was completed in 1979, when many people were convinced that Lindbergh would be replaced by an entirely new airport at Mira Mar or elsewhere in the region in the not too distant future. I have no doubt officials were hesitant to spend too much money on a facility that would "soon" be replaced.

That doesn't make T2E any less a, um, dungeon, but perhaps affords some insight as to why they built it this way...

That we're seeing so much construction now is a taciturn acknowledgement that Lindbergh is here to stay as the San Diego area's primary airport.

Good points William', which have been discussed on last year's thread. Both T1 and T2(E) were most definitely designed and built on the cheap. That was also a time when the Port of SD ran the airport. When it came to adding T2W, as well as the Green Build, 'ownership' and management changed totally and a more permanent and 'showcase' mentality exists. Since there appears to be nothing else in the future for San Diego's airport needs, the SDCRAA is trying to make our 661 acres the best they can be for as long as possible. And yes, there's a lot of catch-up going on.

williaminsd wrote:
Looks like Alaska goes back to daily 4x service SAN-SMF starting March 19. No mainline though with all flights E175s. I got this from Flightsfrom.com, but confirmed for now with a few dummy resos on the Alaska site. Btw - Flightsfrom shows that with Alaska back to 4x, combined (with Southwest) number of flights between the two cities M-F is a staggering 19 a day!

I hate to say it William' but the cut of SAN-SMF to triple-daily does not begin until the May 21 schedule; both the current sked and the 3/19 one have always maintained the 4 daily r/t to SMF that began last year.

The May 21 sked is actually the beginning of the summer peak sked in 2020 and sees quite a few increases in service at SAN, some of it undoubtedly being fed by the cut in SMF service. On that date, SAN-SFO jumps to 8 daily r/t, all EMJs, FAT increases to 4x daily, and BOS & Maui go double-daily. Unfortunately, this is also the date our SLC service on AS ends, another EMJ route, another axed route by AAG.

Actually all of SAN's intra-CA service becomes 100% EMJ equipment on May 21 - that's all AAG flights to SBP, FAT, MRY, SJC, SFO, SMF and STS. I'd guess that SLC & SMF were the worst performing routes and suffered because of it. As has been discussed up-thread, I think cutting service in the SMF-market is the worst thing for AAG to do. It also needs to be noted that things could change in any of the skeds before their start dates. (If AS gets enough complaints about the cuts to SMF or SLC, maybe flights will return.

bb
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:57 pm

SANFan wrote:
I just wanted to add a couple more thoughts about SAN's upcoming projects, as well as those NOT so upcoming.

There appears to be lots of concern about the horror that is T2E. Keep in mind that I am in no way associated with the airport so these are MY opinions and are based on what I've read and seen only.

During the upcoming projects at SAN, for the next several years (thru fall of 2026 in fact) the airport is going to be one helluva mess, everywhere on all 661 acres! In addition to the T1 rebuild known as Package 1 -- involving moving historical buildings off the building site, demolition of many other buildings, site prep, building the new terminal, then moving the cx out of current T1 into the new T1 as well as a whole new roadway system to access the airport and get airport-bound auto traffic off Harbor Drive -- there is Package 2 which involves airside improvements, inc the addition of Taxiway Alpha & the relo of portions of existing taxiways and huge amounts of tarmac creation around the new T1. Then there's Package 3 which is the building of a brand new 4-story Admin Bldg to house all the airport and SDCRAA operations, to be built on the site of all those temp trailers/bldgs at the western edge of the airport's property, west of gate 51, and Package 4 which is the new 5-story parking structure and transport center to be located in front of the new T1. (There are many additional and smaller sub-projects -- I believe already approved and underway -- such as a new storm-water retention system, various support buildings on the North side, an airline support building for belly-cargo and provisioning, etc., that will also be taking place during this same time period.)

Can you even imagine how all these 4 Packages will affect airport access, (car traffic), terminal parking, aircraft movement and potential delays, air quality, etc., etc.? This is, I'm guessing, why T2 in its entirety will be left alone during this phase of the ADP. Also, remember that new-T1 has to be entirely built, all 30 gates, in order to have a place for AA and AS to go to before any demolishing of their current home, T2E, can be done, followed by replacement gates.

Even if the airport could have come up with the additional money to include T2E replacement in with all the rest of this, I think they would have been crazy to do so. It would have meant all the additional demolishing and construction of another chunk of the airport and added to the overall time involved. I think they made a very wise choice -- taking care of the worst terminal that affects the most airport users, first. Pax stats show 12M pax/year now move thru T1! Everyone agrees -- its replacement has to be done NOW! I'm not sure how much breathing room SDIA will have once the entire T1 is done (30 gates worth) before they need those 8 or so gates that will someday replace T2E plus the additional gates due to be built west of gate 51 in the future. We are after all talking about 6 years worth of pax growth until all of T1 is rebuilt, rapidly heading toward that 40M pax cap...

I hope this helps try to explain a bit about the upcoming project, at least as I see it.

bb

Which historic buildings are being moved offsite? In the blueprints, it looks like WN will also lose Gate 3 while the new terminal is being built. That is not going to be a good time for WN.

It also appears that there will be a sharp left turn in the new T1 roadway to line up with the existing Terminal 2 roadway after T2E is demolished.
Last edited by blacksoviet on Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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PacoMartin
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:58 pm

[quote="vedatil4"]Here's a recent news article (in Spanish) that talks about the "Centro de Conexiones Aereas con Asia" they're currently building in TJ. /quote]

La intención es desarrollar un centro de conexiones en ambo sentidos desde Latinoamérica con el continente Asiático, tomando como referencia el punto estratégico en el que se ubica geográficamente la ciudad.

The intetion is to develop a connection center in both directions between Latin America and Asia, considering the strategic geographic location of the city.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:58 pm

SANFan wrote:
I agree that TIJ -- and, IMHO, the CBX -- should now have their own thread. After all, even though TIJ and SAN are only about 35 miles apart, they are in different countries and each has its own large catchment area even though they do overlap.

One of you primarily interested in TIJ should go ahead and start that thread; you know who you are. No permission is required or anything.


Agreed! Somehow the topic lead to the goings-on about TIJ and Mexico, but lets get back to SAN. As far as the mess the new T-1 will cause. I was guessing that building the new terminal will be started on the east end where the old cargo buildings and old commuter terminal stands now, the "banjos" and T-2E can be still used until the new section of T-1 is built. The old T-1 and T2E would be demolished as soon as the airlines
move to the new section. I was thinking this would be to minimize the mess and minimize the loss of gates.
The parking structure can be built to acquire more land for the new T-1.
Last edited by SANMAN66 on Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:23 am

SANFan wrote:
One of the SDCRAA board members even brought up the use of palm trees in the conceptual drawings, saying that they are very poor choices and are essentially more like grass than trees -- bad for the carbon footprint. An airport representative involved with upcoming design and building kind of laughed and reminded everyone that these are absolutely very preliminary renderings just to give folks a feeling of what may be to come; the trees may change!


Whaaat? There's palm trees planted everywhere around T-2 and the rental car plaza. Planting different trees at the new T-1 would make it look tacky. I guess someone on the SDCRAA must hate palm trees.
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:39 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Which historic buildings are being moved offsite? In the blueprints, it looks like WN will also lose Gate 3 while the new terminal is being built. That is not going to be a good time for WN.

It also appears that there will be a sharp left turn in the new T1 roadway to line up with the existing Terminal 2 roadway after T2E is demolished.


That's interesting. I'd like to know what historic buildings needs to be moved? And could they be moved? If all WN stands to lose is gate-3, then it shouldn't be a big hardship for WN. But what about gates-1, 1A, and gate-2? Will WN lose them too?
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:59 am

SANMAN66 wrote:
As far as the mess the new T-1 will cause. I was guessing that building the new terminal will be started on the east end where the old cargo buildings and old commuter terminal stands now, the "banjos" and T-2E can be still used until the new section of T-1 is built. The old T-1 and T2E would be demolished as soon as the airlines
move to the new section. I was thinking this would be to minimize the mess and minimize the loss of gates. The parking structure can be built to acquire more land for the new T-1.


Hey L-Man, Happy New Year to you!

One change to your scenario. As has been mentioned in previous posts, first, the east end of the current T1, gates 1-1A-2, will be demolished (so WN will lose a couple of gates.) Then the first 19 gates of the NEW T1 will be built, starting right where the current T1 will end; to me, that'll be just to the east of the WN ticket counters. When those first 19 gates are completed, the current airlines living in T1 will move into the east part of NEW T1; that should be WN, NK, F9, B6, SY and G4 but I could see that might change a bit. So those 6 cx will end up moving from their current 19-gate terminal to the NEW 19-gate terminal with no net change in the number of gates...

When the old T1 is vacated, it will be demolished and construction will begin on the western part of NEW T1 which will contain 11 gates fit in between T2E and the west of end of NEW T1. And that, I believe is the end of this project that has been approved - a new 30-gate terminal. Period.

At some point, after pre-construction steps such as approval, financing, EIR submission, etc., of the next project are completed, AA and AS will move from T2E to the NEW T1, essentially taking those 11 western gates already built. Then T2E will be demolished and new gates will be built in the empty area between NEW T1 and current T2W where T2E used to be. I believe I saw somewhere that this new construction would be for about 8-9 gates.

I assume the beginning, pre-construction work on the yet-unspecified project to remove and replace T2E will be done in concert with the current project so that work on the T2E replacement can begin just after the completion of NEW T1. For one thing, I think they're going to need the gates!

Bottom line: nothing can be done with T2E until the entire 30-gate NEW T1 is completed; there has to somewhere to put the current tenants of T2E before their terminal is demolished But there is nothing in the current project (for the T1 replacement) that involves T2E -- that'll be entirely separate but hopefully coordinated and time-synched with the current project so the work will smoothly flow from T1 to T2E.

I hope that is clear and understandable and helps explain the overall proposed plan which will prolly cover the next 8 or 9 years.

bb
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