williaminsd
Posts: 180
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:21 am

SANFan wrote:
williaminsd wrote:
I think it's also important to remember that T2E was completed in 1979, when many people were convinced that Lindbergh would be replaced by an entirely new airport at Mira Mar or elsewhere in the region in the not too distant future. I have no doubt officials were hesitant to spend too much money on a facility that would "soon" be replaced.

That doesn't make T2E any less a, um, dungeon, but perhaps affords some insight as to why they built it this way...

That we're seeing so much construction now is a taciturn acknowledgement that Lindbergh is here to stay as the San Diego area's primary airport.

Good points William', which have been discussed on last year's thread. Both T1 and T2(E) were most definitely designed and built on the cheap. That was also a time when the Port of SD ran the airport. When it came to adding T2W, as well as the Green Build, 'ownership' and management changed totally and a more permanent and 'showcase' mentality exists. Since there appears to be nothing else in the future for San Diego's airport needs, the SDCRAA is trying to make our 661 acres the best they can be for as long as possible. And yes, there's a lot of catch-up going on.

williaminsd wrote:
Looks like Alaska goes back to daily 4x service SAN-SMF starting March 19. No mainline though with all flights E175s. I got this from Flightsfrom.com, but confirmed for now with a few dummy resos on the Alaska site. Btw - Flightsfrom shows that with Alaska back to 4x, combined (with Southwest) number of flights between the two cities M-F is a staggering 19 a day!

I hate to say it William' but the cut of SAN-SMF to triple-daily does not begin until the May 21 schedule; both the current sked and the 3/19 one have always maintained the 4 daily r/t to SMF that began last year.

The May 21 sked is actually the beginning of the summer peak sked in 2020 and sees quite a few increases in service at SAN, some of it undoubtedly being fed by the cut in SMF service. On that date, SAN-SFO jumps to 8 daily r/t, all EMJs, FAT increases to 4x daily, and BOS & Maui go double-daily. Unfortunately, this is also the date our SLC service on AS ends, another EMJ route, another axed route by AAG.

Actually all of SAN's intra-CA service becomes 100% EMJ equipment on May 21 - that's all AAG flights to SBP, FAT, MRY, SJC, SFO, SMF and STS. I'd guess that SLC & SMF were the worst performing routes and suffered because of it. As has been discussed up-thread, I think cutting service in the SMF-market is the worst thing for AAG to do. It also needs to be noted that things could change in any of the skeds before their start dates. (If AS gets enough complaints about the cuts to SMF or SLC, maybe flights will return.

bb


No worries brother. I mean really, with schedules so fluid, it's hard to pin them down until they actually fly. For me, travel on the route, which I fly 2-3x/month, was limited to 3 flights a day for both Jan and Feb. I typically fly it on Tuesdays/Wednesdays, which are the impacted days before going back to daily in March. We'll see what happens after May. I'm also taking the new service to SBP in February... can't wait!
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:59 am

SANFan wrote:
Hey L-Man, Happy New Year to you!

One change to your scenario. As has been mentioned in previous posts, first, the east end of the current T1, gates 1-1A-2, will be demolished (so WN will lose a couple of gates.) Then the first 19 gates of the NEW T1 will be built, starting right where the current T1 will end; to me, that'll be just to the east of the WN ticket counters. When those first 19 gates are completed, the current airlines living in T1 will move into the east part of NEW T1; that should be WN, NK, F9, B6, SY and G4 but I could see that might change a bit. So those 6 cx will end up moving from their current 19-gate terminal to the NEW 19-gate terminal with no net change in the number of gates...


Happy New Year to you Bob!

I'm wondering if the first half of the new T-1 would be large enough to accommodate all 19 gates? I would also think that the new parking structure could be built as soon as possible to free up more land for the new terminal, basically eliminate all outside parking?
Where can I find the blueprints?
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:34 am

SANMAN66 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Which historic buildings are being moved offsite? In the blueprints, it looks like WN will also lose Gate 3 while the new terminal is being built. That is not going to be a good time for WN.

It also appears that there will be a sharp left turn in the new T1 roadway to line up with the existing Terminal 2 roadway after T2E is demolished.


That's interesting. I'd like to know what historic buildings needs to be moved? And could they be moved? If all WN stands to lose is gate-3, then it shouldn't be a big hardship for WN. But what about gates-1, 1A, and gate-2? Will WN lose them too?

Yes. WN will lose Gates 1-3.
 
cheapflier
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:59 am

vedatil4 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
Originally I thought maybe US officials would operate inside Mexico at TJ airport similar to what happens in Canadian airports. The rendering doesn't hint at that type of configuration. But the strange, future Terminal C for connecting flights may eventually have US pre-clearance staff operating there. That's still many, many years down the road I think. I think Mexico City would need to get US pre-clearance set up and running first before the idea is explored. Knowing Mexican sensibilities compared to Canada's, I doubt TJ or any Mexican airport will ever have uniformed US officials working there like in Montreal, for example. But the again, there's already a US customs facility operating in TJ for trucks so attitudes, feelings, and policies may be changing.

Which brings up a strange dea: if we ever get US immigration and customs pre-clearance at TJ airport in several decades, couldn't Mexico have their officials checking passengers on US soil for Mexico-bound flights? That would be a sight. Canada currently has the option but doesn't exercise it.


Thank you so much for your analysis! It's very helpful. On the point about pre-clearance, my understanding is the way the contract is structured CBP has to be on the U.S. side. CBX pays CBP for the officers, not TIJ, so CBP can only be on the bridge or in the CBX terminal in the U.S. Pre-clearance expansion lately seems limited to airports that want to pay CBP for the privilege (looking at you AUH and Etihad). Apologies for the late reply.

vedatil4 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
airplaneboy wrote:
Any updates on a desperately needed new terminal 1?


None. The initial plans including ZERO mass transit options, but that is being re-thought. Yes, there has been a lot of poo-pooing of the mass-transit idea, complete with the "nobody is ever going to use it" concept, but I disagree. LOTS of people would prefer to be dropped off nearby, such as at the old SPAWARS facility, so that their drivers don't have to negotiate the streets of Little Italy (Grape & Hawthorne are always at a crawl) or the increasingly crowded Harbor Drive. Multiple options are being considered, including pick-up/drop-off directly at curbside, of course. But including a stop for buses/trollies/Coaster and possibly even Amtrak would allow a lot of people to avoid crawling through the streets nearby, clearing up the roads for others.

When groundbreaking does occur, however, you'll see an ENORMOUS to-do with that event . The ceremonial groundbreaking will be followed by lots of plans and discussions of what to expect. But for now, it's still in the planning phase.

I've done LOTS of my own planning for our airport (long before all SAN started working on it), and my plans jibed with what they came up, at least in general. And I was one of the vocal opponents of Terminal One's redevelopment WITHOUT the mass transit option, so I am glad they are doing that. Until then, though, Terminal One will have to continue as-is...


I'm also in favor of mass transit to San Diego airport. The traffic on Harbor Drive and the Little Italy area is becoming critical. I feel bad for Point Loma people who have to use those streets everyday. I don't know if ridesharing apps, increasing number of flights, or an improved economy are to blame.

But let me tell ya, I don't have much confidence in MTS. I've been to enough meetings to feel like they act like they're willing to listen to the public then do what they wanted to do anyway. My prediction is that there will be some kind of bus, trolley, or other public transportation option to.the airport but of little benefit to most because they won't come by often enough or go somewhere few are headed to.

Oh, but MTS has no problem spending something like a billion dollars and tremendous efforts for the trolley to go from downtown to UTC which few, aside from the homeless, will benefit from.


I think the closest we're going to get is some space "set aside" for future expansion between T1 and T2 :roll:

vedatil4 wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:
Does CJS/ELP have something similar to CBX? Otherwise, people using TIJ-CJS an an alternative to SAN-ELP will still have to deal with the land border crossing on the ELP/CJS end.

As far as western Canada, BLI is actually quite a bit closer than SEA. If memory serves, going after BC traffic was a major reason Allegiant started their base there.


TIJ is unique in that it's only a few hundred feet south of the border. CJS is much further south from the border and can't have a CBX-style bridge. So after flying there, passengers would need to catch a 1/2 hour taxi ride to the border. The border crossing won't be so bad if they already have Sentri cards.

On the northern border, a cheap alternative for Canadians in the Montreal area is to drive down to Plattsburgh or Burlington to catch US domestic flights. .

I flew to Burlington from San Diego once then caught a Greyhound there to Montreal. It's an open secret. The taxi driver that took me from the airport to the bus terminal asked me I was heading to Montreal.

I've considered flying from San Diego to Bellingham. But the flight times weren't so great. Of course I'd be heading to Vancouver to score some maple syrup cookies and to enjoy the metric system.

So true! I think Allegiant once advertised Plattsburgh service as Montreal/Plattsburgh. I've flown B6 LAX-BUF with a lot of Canadians. They're escaping the high Canadian taxes, similar to Americans using TIJ for domestic travel in Mexico. Oddly once SAN-YYZ (via DEN) was cheaper than to BUF so I did that. Border was a breeze with NEXUS.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:44 am

I wonder if the new T-1 would include it's own FIS? So that WN and AS wouldn't be crowding the international gates with their planes coming in from SJD and PVR?
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Jshank83
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:04 am

I’m sure this has been brought up before but I haven’t seen it listed.

How much more can SAN grow with just one runway? I think they have a curfew, correct? So what is their max flights a day? What are they at now?
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:53 am

SANMAN66 wrote:
I wonder if the new T-1 would include it's own FIS? So that WN and AS wouldn't be crowding the international gates with their planes coming in from SJD and PVR?

How many gates can be added to the current FIS?
 
AirFiero
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:11 am

SANMAN66 wrote:
SANFan wrote:
One of the SDCRAA board members even brought up the use of palm trees in the conceptual drawings, saying that they are very poor choices and are essentially more like grass than trees -- bad for the carbon footprint. An airport representative involved with upcoming design and building kind of laughed and reminded everyone that these are absolutely very preliminary renderings just to give folks a feeling of what may be to come; the trees may change!


Whaaat? There's palm trees planted everywhere around T-2 and the rental car plaza. Planting different trees at the new T-1 would make it look tacky. I guess someone on the SDCRAA must hate palm trees.


Nope, just asinine virtue signaling over global warming again.

If they really believed in cutting carbon footprints, they’d stop any expansion of the airport.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:41 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Which historic buildings are being moved offsite? In the blueprints, it looks like WN will also lose Gate 3 while the new terminal is being built. That is not going to be a good time for WN.

It also appears that there will be a sharp left turn in the new T1 roadway to line up with the existing Terminal 2 roadway after T2E is demolished.


That's interesting. I'd like to know what historic buildings needs to be moved? And could they be moved? If all WN stands to lose is gate-3, then it shouldn't be a big hardship for WN. But what about gates-1, 1A, and gate-2? Will WN lose them too?

Yes. WN will lose Gates 1-3.

I'm not so sure about gate losses by WN. The presentation materials from the board meeting last Thursday specifically talk about the demolition of the very east end of current T1: "gates 1, 1A & 2." I have no idea if gate 3 will still be accessible for aircraft or not but I didn't see that mentioned anywhere. I understand that there technically is no gate 2 anymore so WN has already lost that one; now they will also lose at least 1 & 1A in about 2 years. Things are going to get lots worse for WN before they get any better... I don't think they can keep "borrowing" gates from T1W, especially if the 5 cx there do any growing. Of course the airport could always move B6 and/or NK out of T1 and back over to T2W and relieve some of the pressure at current T1.

SANMAN': They’re building more like 2/3 of NEW T1 first, 19 gates, and the land they’re using for the first construction includes the current UA air freight bldg., AA wash rack, the old PSA hanger/current airport admin office bldg., the former UA hanger – the historic bldg. that originally was built on the Pacific Coast Hwy, right next to the original San Diego Airport terminal – and a few others. The historic UA hanger was long ago moved to its present location on the south side of the field and will be moved BACK to the north side of the field; I don’t know what its fate is, maybe a museum?

The time line shows the parking structure construction will begin 11/2021 with completion expected in 9/24, just a month before the 19-gate portion of NEW T1 is supposed to open.

There are no plans for FIS in NEW T1; the current FIS in T2W has been built (and expanded to 6 gates total) to handle SAN’s int’l travel needs for a long time. I would guess that IF more FIS accessible gates are eventually needed, they will be part of the final expansion – the gates to be built west of gate 51 and along the west boundary of the airport property. A few of those new gates could prolly be fed into the current FIS facilities. But that is all a while off!

Hopefully someone with knowledge of WN ops in SAN will weigh in on the future gate usage expectations of the carrier prior to their move into NEW T1.

bb
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:17 pm

SANFan wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:

That's interesting. I'd like to know what historic buildings needs to be moved? And could they be moved? If all WN stands to lose is gate-3, then it shouldn't be a big hardship for WN. But what about gates-1, 1A, and gate-2? Will WN lose them too?

Yes. WN will lose Gates 1-3.

I'm not so sure about gate losses by WN. The presentation materials from the board meeting last Thursday specifically talk about the demolition of the very east end of current T1: "gates 1, 1A & 2." I have no idea if gate 3 will still be accessible for aircraft or not but I didn't see that mentioned anywhere. I understand that there technically is no gate 2 anymore so WN has already lost that one; now they will also lose at least 1 & 1A in about 2 years. Things are going to get lots worse for WN before they get any better... I don't think they can keep "borrowing" gates from T1W, especially if the 5 cx there do any growing. Of course the airport could always move B6 and/or NK out of T1 and back over to T2W and relieve some of the pressure at current T1.

SANMAN': They’re building more like 2/3 of NEW T1 first, 19 gates, and the land they’re using for the first construction includes the current UA air freight bldg., AA wash rack, the old PSA hanger/current airport admin office bldg., the former UA hanger – the historic bldg. that originally was built on the Pacific Coast Hwy, right next to the original San Diego Airport terminal – and a few others. The historic UA hanger was long ago moved to its present location on the south side of the field and will be moved BACK to the north side of the field; I don’t know what its fate is, maybe a museum?

The time line shows the parking structure construction will begin 11/2021 with completion expected in 9/24, just a month before the 19-gate portion of NEW T1 is supposed to open.

There are no plans for FIS in NEW T1; the current FIS in T2W has been built (and expanded to 6 gates total) to handle SAN’s int’l travel needs for a long time. I would guess that IF more FIS accessible gates are eventually needed, they will be part of the final expansion – the gates to be built west of gate 51 and along the west boundary of the airport property. A few of those new gates could prolly be fed into the current FIS facilities. But that is all a while off!

Hopefully someone with knowledge of WN ops in SAN will weigh in on the future gate usage expectations of the carrier prior to their move into NEW T1.

bb

They should have never moved the UA hangar in the first place. If you look at the blueprints, the new terminal will be built very close to the current Gate 3. I do not think a 737 can be maneuvered in there. You might be able to fit an RJ or a turboprop though. Is there really not enough space in Terminal 2 for B6? I think some B6 flights should be moved back to Terminal 2 until the new Terminal 1 is complete. I think the Airport Authority should reimburse B6 for the costs of maintaining a split operation for a few years.

Once the second phase of the new T1 is completed, B6 can move all flights there and Allegiant can return to Terminal 2.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:22 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
They should have never moved the UA hangar in the first place. If you look at the blueprints, the new terminal will be built very close to the current Gate 3. I do not think a 737 can be maneuvered in there.


Where can I find the blueprints? I'd like to see it for myself.
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:31 pm

SANMAN66 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
They should have never moved the UA hangar in the first place. If you look at the blueprints, the new terminal will be built very close to the current Gate 3. I do not think a 737 can be maneuvered in there.


Where can I find the blueprints? I'd like to see it for myself.

Sanfan provided the link last week. The document is over 300 pages long.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:37 pm

SANFan wrote:
SANMAN': They’re building more like 2/3 of NEW T1 first, 19 gates, and the land they’re using for the first construction includes the current UA air freight bldg., AA wash rack, the old PSA hanger/current airport admin office bldg., the former UA hanger – the historic bldg. that originally was built on the Pacific Coast Hwy, right next to the original San Diego Airport terminal – and a few others. The historic UA hanger was long ago moved to its present location on the south side of the field and will be moved BACK to the north side of the field; I don’t know what its fate is, maybe a museum?
bb


My guess is that they make the historic UA hangar into a museum and hopefully have public access after it is moved back to the North side. When they
begin building the new terminal, I'm wondering if that portion's large enough to accommodate 19 gates?
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blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:11 am

SANMAN66 wrote:
SANFan wrote:
SANMAN': They’re building more like 2/3 of NEW T1 first, 19 gates, and the land they’re using for the first construction includes the current UA air freight bldg., AA wash rack, the old PSA hanger/current airport admin office bldg., the former UA hanger – the historic bldg. that originally was built on the Pacific Coast Hwy, right next to the original San Diego Airport terminal – and a few others. The historic UA hanger was long ago moved to its present location on the south side of the field and will be moved BACK to the north side of the field; I don’t know what its fate is, maybe a museum?
bb


My guess is that they make the historic UA hangar into a museum and hopefully have public access after it is moved back to the North side. When they
begin building the new terminal, I'm wondering if that portion's large enough to accommodate 19 gates?

What is the largest airliner that can fit in the old UA hangar?

Was it designed for the DC-6?
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:14 am

Does Allegiant share their gate with Spirit?
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:15 am

AirFiero wrote:
Nope, just asinine virtue signaling over global warming again.
If they really believed in cutting carbon footprints, they’d stop any expansion of the airport.


I agree. What do they expect? Plant a forest at the airport?
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AirFiero
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:18 am

SANMAN66 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Nope, just asinine virtue signaling over global warming again.
If they really believed in cutting carbon footprints, they’d stop any expansion of the airport.


I agree. What do they expect? Plant a forest at the airport?


They are worried about the difference in “carbon footprint” over 20 of one type of tree over another, but are adding 20 gates? Talk about absurd. Picking gnat s*** out of pepper.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:25 am

blacksoviet wrote:
SANMAN66 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
They should have never moved the UA hangar in the first place. If you look at the blueprints, the new terminal will be built very close to the current Gate 3. I do not think a 737 can be maneuvered in there.


Where can I find the blueprints? I'd like to see it for myself.

Sanfan provided the link last week. The document is over 300 pages long.


I found it. I really like the curving roof design. I am so glad they're getting away from the utilitarian look of the old T-1 and T-2E. I hope they don't change the style of it.
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:39 am

AirFiero wrote:
They are worried about the difference in “carbon footprint” over 20 of one type of tree over another, but are adding 20 gates? Talk about absurd. Picking gnat s*** out of pepper.


You're right, it is absurd. Palm trees can do just as good as any tree reducing any "carbon footprint". In my opinion ,they are much more beautiful. Really, people flying in from snowy areas of the country would rather see palms instead of pines!
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PacoMartin
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:39 am

Jshank83 wrote:
I’m sure this has been brought up before but I haven’t seen it listed.

How much more can SAN grow with just one runway? I think they have a curfew, correct? So what is their max flights a day? What are they at
now?


The number that has been widely reported it 260,000 operations per year until constraints begin. The maximum number of operations before there are an unacceptable delays would be 300,000

ATADS data for the last three years
Air Carrier+ Air Taxi+ General Aviation+ Military=Total
2017 188,581+ 10,662+ 9,613+ 707= 209,563
2018 201,466+ 12,497+ 10,337+ 758= 225,058
2019 190,642+ 11,670+ 8,922+ 715= 211,949
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:43 pm

Kinda off topic but here's an interesting article about medical tourism which starts and ends at San Diego Airport: https://www.sltrib.com/mexico-pharmacy-tourism/ The article mentions a clinic inside Vancouver airport where people will fly to just to pick up certain medicines.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:26 am

OK, ok, I'm sorry I even mentioned the palm tree comment! It was not a big deal at the board meeting; the whole comment took a minute or two and there was no further debate on the topic. And it did not lead to fistfights in the aisles and screaming matches between board members and airport staff! Besides, it's WAY early in the process of replacing T1 to be worrying about landscaping! I'm sure there will be thought put into this aspect of the project at the appropriate time and there will not be fistfights or screaming at that time either!

Personally, I'm glad there is at least one board member very concerned about the environment and wanting to make points where warranted. These views may be accepted or ignored by others as the building process goes on. Certainly environmental concerns are a big part of that process.

I hope those of you looking for drawings and renderings of the project have searched and found them by now. They should help answer a lot of questions and add some excitement as we look forward to this very necessary step in our itty-bitty airport's growth and improvement!

bb
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:08 am

I am most excited to see what will replace T2E. I assume it will be similar to the current concourse but much wider. The T2E replacement should have at least 9 gates.

I am curious what will become of Gates 20 and 21 once demolition begins on Terminal 1. I have a feeling that these gates will be demolished as well to make room for the new terminal.

I think that Terminal 2 East should have been demolished and replaced immediately after completion of Terminal 2 West, before SAN became an AS hub.
 
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DL717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:14 am

SANFan wrote:
OK, ok, I'm sorry I even mentioned the palm tree comment! It was not a big deal at the board meeting; the whole comment took a minute or two and there was no further debate on the topic. And it did not lead to fistfights in the aisles and screaming matches between board members and airport staff! Besides, it's WAY early in the process of replacing T1 to be worrying about landscaping! I'm sure there will be thought put into this aspect of the project at the appropriate time and there will not be fistfights or screaming at that time either!

Personally, I'm glad there is at least one board member very concerned about the environment and wanting to make points where warranted. These views may be accepted or ignored by others as the building process goes on. Certainly environmental concerns are a big part of that process.

I hope those of you looking for drawings and renderings of the project have searched and found them by now. They should help answer a lot of questions and add some excitement as we look forward to this very necessary step in our itty-bitty airport's growth and improvement!

bb


Don’t sweat it bro. If they spent a couple of minutes on such a silly thing, its probably because of someone getting stuck on a shiny object. :white:

Big picture stuff is hard for some people. I watched a board meeting for SLC and someone got stuck on where the taxis will go while the new terminal was being built. I was like, WTF? I’m sure they can figure this out once they figure out what the terminal roadways will look like first.

If they really wanted to do something, they’d be digging some water retention basins, drop in a forest of mangroves that is sea water friendly to suck up the rising tide, suck up the CO2 and by extension mask the fact that an airport is even there by making it nearly impossible to see from the road. There are probably a few types of pine trees that would also work. :rotfl:

It’s hysterical that people are dropping in drought tolerant ugly landscaping to save water at a time when sea levels are such a concern, rather than building small scale desalinization plants for small areas to suck up that tide and pump it to water requiring, CO2 sucking, foliage.

This thing hop an do close to 1500 gallons an hour for less than half a million:

https://solarmagazine.com/no-batteries- ... ert-coast/
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:43 am

SANFan wrote:
OK, ok, I'm sorry I even mentioned the palm tree comment! It was not a big deal at the board meeting;


No apologies needed SANFan! I get a little carried away. I am somewhat biased when it comes to palm trees, being a Southern Californian! 8-)
Back on topic: are the drawings the final designs for the new T-1? I really love the curving roofline. Also, in one of the drawings, it looks like a plane is docked at a glass jetway. That would be a touch of class with glass jetways!
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:14 am

blacksoviet wrote:
I am most excited to see what will replace T2E. I assume it will be similar to the current concourse but much wider. The T2E replacement should have at least 9 gates.

I am curious what will become of Gates 20 and 21 once demolition begins on Terminal 1. I have a feeling that these gates will be demolished as well to make room for the new terminal.

I think that Terminal 2 East should have been demolished and replaced immediately after completion of Terminal 2 West, before SAN became an AS hub.


The airlines will most likely continue to use T-2E until the first section of the new terminal is built, and then T-2E will be demolished and replaced with the second half in a linear way, just like all of the new T-1. The first half of the new terminal will have 19 gates, I'm betting that all the airline operations for T-1 will be at first half and the area where T-2E once stood will be vacant until more gates are needed.
Last edited by SANMAN66 on Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ibthebigd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:37 am

How much concession space will the new Terminal 1 have?

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AirFiero
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:15 pm

SANFan wrote:
OK, ok, I'm sorry I even mentioned the palm tree comment! It was not a big deal at the board meeting; the whole comment took a minute or two and there was no further debate on the topic. And it did not lead to fistfights in the aisles and screaming matches between board members and airport staff! Besides, it's WAY early in the process of replacing T1 to be worrying about landscaping! I'm sure there will be thought put into this aspect of the project at the appropriate time and there will not be fistfights or screaming at that time either!

Personally, I'm glad there is at least one board member very concerned about the environment and wanting to make points where warranted. These views may be accepted or ignored by others as the building process goes on. Certainly environmental concerns are a big part of that process.

I hope those of you looking for drawings and renderings of the project have searched and found them by now. They should help answer a lot of questions and add some excitement as we look forward to this very necessary step in our itty-bitty airport's growth and improvement!

bb


Hey, SANFan, I was going to PM you on this. I wanted to make it clear my irritation at this over-the-top crap was at the nit pickers at SDIA, NOT YOU.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:20 pm

Hey, please understand, I'm not taking any of the comments about the palm tree comments personally; I just mentioned it in passing because I found it interesting, not to ignite a major debate here. It really was just a passing comment and not a big deal at all. (But I regret that I brought it up.)

Anyone wanting to see it or the presentation of the project can now watch the entire board meeting, including the board's votes to approve. Just be prepared to spend some time getting thru the whole thing. There is a nice presentation of many of the important features of the project and I came away with a feeling for the huge scope of the whole project. (Note: if you watch it, stop watching when they break for closed session and lunch 'cause that's the end of it.)

If you're interested, here's the link to the stream of the webcast of last Thursday's board meeting: https://stream1.sdcoe.net/wc/sdcraa010920/
(I have no issue filling in name, an organization name, and email address; the phone number is not necessary.)

One more thing: many of the questions I see on this thread are quite premature; remember that the engineering and design of the terminal has not even begun yet. There are no details of anything yet; all we can see now are renderings of the general positioning of the terminal, it's rough shape, and a few artist's 'suggestions' of what the finished project might look like. (And yes, some palm trees ARE present! See, there I go again...)

Carefully looking again at the Implementation Timeline shows the actual designing of the Terminal is due to commence in a year, Jan 2021, and will take 10 months, with construction to begin in November 2021. It will be next spring or summer before many of the questions being asked here will be answered. Sorry.

bb
 
AirFiero
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:47 pm

You don’t need to apologize, you did nothing wrong.
 
SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:06 pm

SANFan wrote:
Carefully looking again at the Implementation Timeline shows the actual designing of the Terminal is due to commence in a year, Jan 2021, and will take 10 months, with construction to begin in November 2021. It will be next spring or summer before many of the questions being asked here will be answered. Sorry.

bb

Why does it take them so long to start building? It seemed like it took them forever to get started on the second half of T-2W. But anyways, as I said before. I'm glad they have gotten away from the utilitarian designs of the old East/West terminals and really showcasing the airport! I still wonder to myself, "Is this Lindbergh Field?"
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:59 am

Reminder for you SAN spotters out there (especially those with cameras?) - tomorrow and Thursday should see AC's/rouge's 763 from/to YYZ visiting SDIA.

Flight RV1379 is scheduled to arrive SAN at 10:40am and the departure is supposed to head back to YYZ at 11:50am.

Has anyone gotten any knowledge now of the reason for the sub/upgrade? It looks like rouge has 25 763s in its fleet.

Hopefully someone will be able to record this sighting and post it here in the next couple of days.

bb
 
SANAV8R
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:22 am

From a recent forum on Top 50 Underserved routes, San Diego appeared several times
from https://www.anna.aero/2020/01/13/usas-t ... assengers/

Route/PDEW/note
1. RaleighDurham, NC – San Diego, CA 162 - Cut by Frontier in Sept. 2019
6. Cleveland, OH – San Diego, CA 117 - Cut by Frontier in Sept. 2019
8. Milwaukee, WI – San Diego, CA 112 - Cut by Frontier in Feb. 2019; was year-round by Southwest, then seasonal
9 .Pittsburgh, PA – San Diego, CA 110 - Cut by Frontier in Jan. 2019
19. Columbus, OH – San Diego, CA 96 - Similar level to that achieved during SkyBus’ time
30. Hartford, CT – San Diego, CA 88
35. Jacksonville, FL – San Diego, CA 86 - Big Navy route
 
ibthebigd
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:56 am

IND should be on that list it is usually about 130 PDEW.

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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:48 pm

SANAV8R wrote:
From a recent forum on Top 50 Underserved routes, San Diego appeared several times
from https://www.anna.aero/2020/01/13/usas-t ... assengers/

Route/PDEW/note
1. RaleighDurham, NC – San Diego, CA 162 - Cut by Frontier in Sept. 2019
6. Cleveland, OH – San Diego, CA 117 - Cut by Frontier in Sept. 2019
8. Milwaukee, WI – San Diego, CA 112 - Cut by Frontier in Feb. 2019; was year-round by Southwest, then seasonal
9 .Pittsburgh, PA – San Diego, CA 110 - Cut by Frontier in Jan. 2019
19. Columbus, OH – San Diego, CA 96 - Similar level to that achieved during SkyBus’ time
30. Hartford, CT – San Diego, CA 88
35. Jacksonville, FL – San Diego, CA 86 - Big Navy route


ibthebigd wrote:
IND should be on that list it is usually about 130 PDEW.

I see that DCA-SAN is not on the list but I can understand that since it's not really available. If I remember correctly, SAN-DCA and LAX-LGA are generally the top 2 unserved markets in the U.S. Neither is permitted without hearings at this time.....

Yeah, as has been debated much and for a long time, routes op'd by F9 and G4, IMO, should not even be counted as 'served' routes. RDU and IND are both routes that need year-round and daily service. I keep hoping that AS and/or WN will upgrade those routes to higher priorities. (WN already is the prime carrier on SAN-IND but the MAX issue is possibly the reason they don't run it more.)

The one market very conspicuous by its absence though, is ORF-SAN. I haven't examined or even seen the numbers from DOT Tables 1A and 6 for a while now so I don't have the latest numbers for ORF but I'm sure it's bigger than RDU, and certainly larger than JAX! Problem is I think those 'heavy Navy' routes are low margin so I think the cx find other routes with higher yields on which to place their resources. (And I am aware that WN serves SAN-ORF once a week, only during the summer... whoopee!)

Thanks for presenting that list. Perhaps we'll see some action even this year on a couple of those routes

bb
 
AirFiero
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:03 pm

Hey, is the YouTuber “SANspotter” here?
 
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LindyFlight
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:21 pm

AirFiero wrote:
Hey, is the YouTuber “SANspotter” here?

Hmm, I thought he previously was involved in the SAN Thread in the past few years but it's been a while. I'm curious to know the top underserved international markets out of SAN.
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:26 pm

LindyFlight wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Hey, is the YouTuber “SANspotter” here?

Hmm, I thought he previously was involved in the SAN Thread in the past few years but it's been a while. I'm curious to know the top unserved international markets out of SAN.


AirFiero: did you mean in the forum or at the airport itself arriving on that Air Canada 767 which just landed? Based on his last youtube video, I hope he's coming back on that plane and he recorded the experience. I missed seeing the aircraft by no more than 2 minutes. Grrr.

I'd guess the top unserved international market out of SAN will be CUN or a place in Asia such as Manila or Seoul.
 
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rjsampson
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:14 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
I’m sure this has been brought up before but I haven’t seen it listed.

How much more can SAN grow with just one runway? I think they have a curfew, correct? So what is their max flights a day? What are they at now?


i would imagine they have quite a bit of room for growth with just runway. Look at LGW. Or heck: Look at the astonishing amount of traffic LHR can handle with 2. I don't think the main limiting factor is a single runway, rather its the constrained footprint of the airfield (which despite what anyone says: will never expand.. at least within our lifetime).

[Yes, as most airports, they have a curfew. There isn't a defined "maximum" number of daily flights (although it's speculated the max capacity would be ~800 takeoffs/landings per day). They are currently averaging just over ~600 per day]
"..your eyes will be forever turned skyward, for there.." yeah we know the DaVinci quote. But GA is so dang expensive these days! :(
 
AirFiero
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:19 am

vedatil4 wrote:
LindyFlight wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
Hey, is the YouTuber “SANspotter” here?

Hmm, I thought he previously was involved in the SAN Thread in the past few years but it's been a while. I'm curious to know the top unserved international markets out of SAN.


AirFiero: did you mean in the forum or at the airport itself arriving on that Air Canada 767 which just landed? Based on his last youtube video, I hope he's coming back on that plane and he recorded the experience. I missed seeing the aircraft by no more than 2 minutes. Grrr.

I'd guess the top unserved international market out of SAN will be CUN or a place in Asia such as Manila or Seoul.


I was wondering if SANspotter was a forum regular?
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:53 am

vedatil4 wrote:
I missed seeing the [AC 763] aircraft by no more than 2 minutes. Grrr.

I'd guess the top unserved international market out of SAN will be CUN or a place in Asia such as Manila or Seoul.

Aww, too bad vedatil'. Sorry you missed it.

Is there anybody who did see the rouge 763 today? One more chance tomorrow for those interested...

I would love to see a current list of the largest unserved int'l markets from SAN.

I know that CUN is a large one -- I think that was posted somewhere on last year's SAN-thread -- but because of TIJ, it's unlikely anyone will try SAN-CUN any time soon. My guess would be PAR or maybe AMS would be pretty large. Frustratingly, I imagine MNL is also pretty big but I don't hold much hope for that to happen. Other Asian destinations -- besides TYO -- probably aren't too large on their own but if they are a big enough hub, they should eventually see service from here. Latin America is undoubtedly similar to the Asian situation.

bb
 
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LindyFlight
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:09 am

SANFan wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
I missed seeing the [AC 763] aircraft by no more than 2 minutes. Grrr.

I'd guess the top unserved international market out of SAN will be CUN or a place in Asia such as Manila or Seoul.

Aww, too bad vedatil'. Sorry you missed it.

Is there anybody who did see the rouge 763 today? One more chance tomorrow for those interested...

I would love to see a current list of the largest unserved int'l markets from SAN.

I know that CUN is a large one -- I think that was posted somewhere on last year's SAN-thread -- but because of TIJ, it's unlikely anyone will try SAN-CUN any time soon. My guess would be PAR or maybe AMS would be pretty large. Frustratingly, I imagine MNL is also pretty big but I don't hold much hope for that to happen. Other Asian destinations -- besides TYO -- probably aren't too large on their own but if they are a big enough hub, they should eventually see service from here. Latin America is undoubtedly similar to the Asian situation.

bb


The AC 767 was actually mainline and not Rouge. The Toronto flight seems to do well year-round so I wouldn't mind a nice equipment upgrade on that route, Hopefully landing another international carrier isn't too elusive these days for the SAN Air Service Development Team; building relationships with airlines and convincing them takes years to accomplish.
 
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DL717
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:33 am

rjsampson wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I’m sure this has been brought up before but I haven’t seen it listed.

How much more can SAN grow with just one runway? I think they have a curfew, correct? So what is their max flights a day? What are they at now?


i would imagine they have quite a bit of room for growth with just runway. Look at LGW. Or heck: Look at the astonishing amount of traffic LHR can handle with 2. I don't think the main limiting factor is a single runway, rather its the constrained footprint of the airfield (which despite what anyone says: will never expand.. at least within our lifetime).

[Yes, as most airports, they have a curfew. There isn't a defined "maximum" number of daily flights (although it's speculated the max capacity would be ~800 takeoffs/landings per day). They are currently averaging just over ~600 per day]


Gatwick has two runways, even though only one can be operated at a time. This allows major maintenance without closing. Gatwick doesn’t have a curfew either. They do have a pricing structure that makes middle of the night departures a costly proposition, but that doesn’t stop them from occurring. With all the opposition to a second independent runway, Gatwick has also been looking at shifting one of the runways to get 700’ of separation which would be half of LAX in terms of capacity. Not a bad idea all things considered. It would be about a 20% capacity gain with minimal impact to the surrounding areas compared with the second runway. Gatwick also has more real estate for a higher percentage of widebody operations being twice as large.

Ultimately, airlines fly at times that people want to travel, and that’s not usually at 3:00 am. That said, Gatwick starts rolling at 6:00 am, where SAN can’t start until 6:30. If it’s all departures, which it usually is that early, that’s about 30 more departures a day at Gatwick. Those 30 departures would obviously generate 30 more arrIvals that will spread out with the airport open all night to arrivals. That’s a lot of capacity. About 4 million seats worth at 200 seats per operation. If they increase the runway separation that would be a huge capacity gain. With a mixed fleet SAN will be fine until 260k ops a year. After that, the peaks will have delay that rolls into the off peak times. Max is probably around 300k, but they’ll become a metered facility not long after hitting 260k during peak periods, with continuous metering around 280k.
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:13 am

SANFan wrote:
I'd guess the top unserved international market out of SAN will be CUN or a place in Asia such as Manila or Seoul.. Other Asian destinations -- besides TYO -- probably aren't too large on their own but if they are a big enough hub, they should eventually see service from here. Latin America is undoubtedly similar to the Asian situation.
bb


I'll bet JAL is happy having the SAN-Asia market all to themselves since they take care of the pax connecting in NRT onward to MNL. I threw in the towel long time ago of hoping PR serving SAN. They just don't seem interested anymore. SAN-NRT might be the only route to Asia this area can handle at the moment.
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SANMAN66
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:28 am

LindyFlight wrote:
The AC 767 was actually mainline and not Rouge.


I didn't know AC still had 763s as mainline. I thought some were retired and the rest of them transferred to Rouge.
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LindyFlight
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:13 am

SANMAN66 wrote:
LindyFlight wrote:
The AC 767 was actually mainline and not Rouge.


I didn't know AC still had 763s as mainline. I thought some were retired and the rest of them transferred to Rouge.


They have 5 aircraft remaining and those will be retired sometime this year by A330s.
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:02 pm

SANFan wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
I missed seeing the [AC 763] aircraft by no more than 2 minutes. Grrr.

I'd guess the top unserved international market out of SAN will be CUN or a place in Asia such as Manila or Seoul.

Aww, too bad vedatil'. Sorry you missed it.

Is there anybody who did see the rouge 763 today? One more chance tomorrow for those interested...

I would love to see a current list of the largest unserved int'l markets from SAN.

I know that CUN is a large one -- I think that was posted somewhere on last year's SAN-thread -- but because of TIJ, it's unlikely anyone will try SAN-CUN any time soon. My guess would be PAR or maybe AMS would be pretty large. Frustratingly, I imagine MNL is also pretty big but I don't hold much hope for that to happen. Other Asian destinations -- besides TYO -- probably aren't too large on their own but if they are a big enough hub, they should eventually see service from here. Latin America is undoubtedly similar to the Asian situation.

bb


Thanks for pointing out that I'll get another chance to see that AirCanada 767. I'll get to my viewing spot downtown early this time.

Yes, Paris is probably high on a list of international destinations not served directly. I did manage to see the AirFrance 777 that came to town a few months ago. They sold tickets for that flight. Maybe it was a test run? I can only hope.

I wonder if on the way back to Toronto the flight connected to flights to Europe or Cuba. I know they have an in-transit type of terminal there. Did or do in-transit passengers go through customs and immigration there if Canada isn't their destination? What if someone had a DUI? Will they be allowed onto the flight if they're not admissable into Canada? I wonder.

I love Canada BTW. It's a fascinating country; just like us but not quite. I hope to fly Swoop to Edmonton later this year.
 
Newark727
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:39 pm

Does anyone know if Edelweiss Air will be back this summer? I wanted to get a photo of them last year, but it didn't work out (something about a ground collision in Toronto? I forget.)
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:40 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
Yes, Paris is probably high on a list of international destinations not served directly. I did manage to see the AirFrance 777 that came to town a few months ago. They sold tickets for that flight. Maybe it was a test run? I can only hope.


There was a large bio-medical conference held in San Diego, and Air France scheduled several "one-off" scheduled services. Tickets could be purchased by the general public; however, someone reported that less than 100 seats were sold on one of the flights. However, given that this was solely for the conference, any additional tickets above and beyond those sold for that reason was extra revenue. And zero advertising for a one-or-two-times-only destination? I'd be surprised that ANY were sold!

I wonder if on the way back to Toronto the flight connected to flights to Europe or Cuba. I know they have an in-transit type of terminal there. Did or do in-transit passengers go through customs and immigration there if Canada isn't their destination? What if someone had a DUI? Will they be allowed onto the flight if they're not admissable into Canada? I wonder.


There are specific facilities for "in-transit-to-the-U.S." that allow in-transit passengers to by-pass Canadian customs completely. One stays in the sterile area and proceeds directly to the U.S.-bound gates, and then goes through U.S. customs before boarding, so upon arrival it is treated as a domestic flight.

Got a DUI? You've got work to do, applying for "temporary residency" in Canada. This solution was created to allow President (at the time) George W. Bush to visit Canada, which would not have been allowed under the current system. Even the President would have been barred from the country had an exception to the rule not been created. Same with many olympic athletes in 2010 - lots of them had DUI's, and exceptions had to be made.

However, if you haven't gone through the process, you're not getting on the plane, period.
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:27 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
Yes, Paris is probably high on a list of international destinations not served directly. I did manage to see the AirFrance 777 that came to town a few months ago. They sold tickets for that flight. Maybe it was a test run? I can only hope.


There was a large bio-medical conference held in San Diego, and Air France scheduled several "one-off" scheduled services. Tickets could be purchased by the general public; however, someone reported that less than 100 seats were sold on one of the flights. However, given that this was solely for the conference, any additional tickets above and beyond those sold for that reason was extra revenue. And zero advertising for a one-or-two-times-only destination? I'd be surprised that ANY were sold!

I wonder if on the way back to Toronto the flight connected to flights to Europe or Cuba. I know they have an in-transit type of terminal there. Did or do in-transit passengers go through customs and immigration there if Canada isn't their destination? What if someone had a DUI? Will they be allowed onto the flight if they're not admissable into Canada? I wonder.


There are specific facilities for "in-transit-to-the-U.S." that allow in-transit passengers to by-pass Canadian customs completely. One stays in the sterile area and proceeds directly to the U.S.-bound gates, and then goes through U.S. customs before boarding, so upon arrival it is treated as a domestic flight.

Got a DUI? You've got work to do, applying for "temporary residency" in Canada. This solution was created to allow President (at the time) George W. Bush to visit Canada, which would not have been allowed under the current system. Even the President would have been barred from the country had an exception to the rule not been created. Same with many olympic athletes in 2010 - lots of them had DUI's, and exceptions had to be made.

However, if you haven't gone through the process, you're not getting on the plane, period.


I don't have a DUI on my record but I do know they treat it as a felony which makes some passengers inadmissible felons in their view. This seems a harsh policy to me but it's their country. I wondered if maybe some of those DUI passengers could go in-transit in Toronto onto Europe? From your reply, it seems like the answer is no. So they'll be denied boarding Canadian-flagged airplanes too? Ouch.

Like I wrote, I love Canada and its little quirks. Here's another question: I know AirTransat will soon fly San Diego to Montreal. On arrival to Montreal are flight crews required to speak some French to air traffic control there? French language laws can be intense in Quebec. Example: no KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken) only PFK (Poulet Frit Kentucky). :-) Is English the official language of aviation? I wonder how ATC staff there respond there if pilots don't open up with "bonjour" or "bonsoir".

When I see videos of aircraft landing in other countries, I see English mixed with German, Spanish, or other languages used. I imagine this can lead to confusion. While I'm on this rant, why don't airlines use the metric system? A flight almost crashed once because they loaded an amount of liters instead of gallons; Gimli Glider, anyone? Any clarification will be appreciated.

Here's a video of AirFrance at a San Diego gate. You can see a Lufthansa A340 in the background. Both majestic aircraft but someone hit thumbs down? Mon dieu!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwBT6Cog8oI

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