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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:13 am

A couple of thoughts about Allegiant's SAN- expansion announced on 2/11.

With the new routes, SAN will apparently see 10 routes. This comes completely out of nowhere and seems to be (finally) making SAN a real "destination"-type station for G4. I guess. This is certainly the most routes they have ever offered from our airport since they first starting flying from SAN (to BLI) back in June of 2008.

However, as of now at least, we are not yet a "base" with a/c and crews based here. Maybe we will never be. As was already mentioned up-thread, the reason for the SAN-LAS service, daily except Tuesdays, is to provide the A319 for a bunch of the new routes. I don't have the time right now to create a complete turn-sked for the 2020 summer schedules and more power to anyone else out there who wants to take the time to do so. (E.g., the Vegas flights appear to operate at different times every day they fly but they generally come from LAS in the morning and return back to LAS late at night.) I don't believe for a minute they expect to carry profitable pax loads on any SAN-LAS flights. Hopefully, eventually, SAN will see a plane or 2 (and crews) based here.

To me, things with G4 continue to be scattered, constantly changing and usually disappointing. It's almost impossible for me to keep track of what they are offering at any given time so I can't seem to get to excited about their presence here. But maybe they are finally at least making an effort to turn SAN into a real functioning station; if and when Allegiant develops enough markets from here to turn us into a base, I will gladly start paying attention!

Finally, I hope to see MFR and BIL do well, perhaps the best of the new routes. I think SAN should be able to support nonstop service to Montana and to cities in Oregon besides PDX, ultimately year round.

bb
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:28 am

Hopefully after the new Terminal is built, Allegiant will have their own gate.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:31 pm

SANFan wrote:
A couple of thoughts about Allegiant's SAN- expansion announced on 2/11.

With the new routes, SAN will apparently see 10 routes. This comes completely out of nowhere and seems to be (finally) making SAN a real "destination"-type station for G4. I guess. This is certainly the most routes they have ever offered from our airport since they first starting flying from SAN (to BLI) back in June of 2008.

However, as of now at least, we are not yet a "base" with a/c and crews based here. Maybe we will never be. As was already mentioned up-thread, the reason for the SAN-LAS service, daily except Tuesdays, is to provide the A319 for a bunch of the new routes. I don't have the time right now to create a complete turn-sked for the 2020 summer schedules and more power to anyone else out there who wants to take the time to do so. (E.g., the Vegas flights appear to operate at different times every day they fly but they generally come from LAS in the morning and return back to LAS late at night.) I don't believe for a minute they expect to carry profitable pax loads on any SAN-LAS flights. Hopefully, eventually, SAN will see a plane or 2 (and crews) based here.

To me, things with G4 continue to be scattered, constantly changing and usually disappointing. It's almost impossible for me to keep track of what they are offering at any given time so I can't seem to get to excited about their presence here. But maybe they are finally at least making an effort to turn SAN into a real functioning station; if and when Allegiant develops enough markets from here to turn us into a base, I will gladly start paying attention!

Finally, I hope to see MFR and BIL do well, perhaps the best of the new routes. I think SAN should be able to support nonstop service to Montana and to cities in Oregon besides PDX, ultimately year round.

bb


This is my thinking too - I can't get excited about Allegiant's services at all, because they seemingly come and go all the time. I know this is their business model, and I do wish them well; however, between Frontier, Spirit, and Allegiant, I can't keep track of the places they fly to. It's just too scattered, and with less than daily flights to most locations - as well as the inevitable question about interlining when things go wrong - I just can't bring myself to become enthused about these new routes.

As for my question about less-than-daily routes and their market, I would assume they deal mostly with package tours, including hotels and such, given that their customer base isn't going to have the option of choosing their days of travel (you take what you can get). However, like the optional insurances, the real profit lies in the ancillary revenue, and perhaps this is their real business.
 
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Coronado990
Posts: 1451
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:51 am

SANFan wrote:
A couple of thoughts about Allegiant's SAN- expansion announced on 2/11.

With the new routes, SAN will apparently see 10 routes. This comes completely out of nowhere and seems to be (finally) making SAN a real "destination"-type station for G4. I guess. This is certainly the most routes they have ever offered from our airport since they first starting flying from SAN (to BLI) back in June of 2008.

However, as of now at least, we are not yet a "base" with a/c and crews based here. Maybe we will never be. As was already mentioned up-thread, the reason for the SAN-LAS service, daily except Tuesdays, is to provide the A319 for a bunch of the new routes. I don't have the time right now to create a complete turn-sked for the 2020 summer schedules and more power to anyone else out there who wants to take the time to do so. (E.g., the Vegas flights appear to operate at different times every day they fly but they generally come from LAS in the morning and return back to LAS late at night.) I don't believe for a minute they expect to carry profitable pax loads on any SAN-LAS flights. Hopefully, eventually, SAN will see a plane or 2 (and crews) based here.

To me, things with G4 continue to be scattered, constantly changing and usually disappointing. It's almost impossible for me to keep track of what they are offering at any given time so I can't seem to get to excited about their presence here. But maybe they are finally at least making an effort to turn SAN into a real functioning station; if and when Allegiant develops enough markets from here to turn us into a base, I will gladly start paying attention!

Finally, I hope to see MFR and BIL do well, perhaps the best of the new routes. I think SAN should be able to support nonstop service to Montana and to cities in Oregon besides PDX, ultimately year round.

bb


Here are the flight times for G4 in June...

Ar SAN Dept SAN

MO...
IDA 10:45a 11:25a IDA
LAS 11:40a 12:10p FSD
SCK 12:51p 1:31p SCK
BLI 4:07p 4:47p BLI
EUG 5:57p 6:37p EUG
FSD 7:40p 8:31p LAS

TU... No Flights

WE...
LAS 1:10p 2:00p TUL
TUL 8:47p 9:37p LAS

TH...
LAS 9:30a ?
ELP 10:34a 11:14a ELP
MFR 12:33p 1:20p MFR
?.................. 4:12p BIL
BIL 10:00p 10:45p LAS

FR...
SCK 9:31a 10:11a SCK
IDA 10:45a 11:25a IDA
LAS 1:38p 2:18p FSD
BLI 4:07p 4:47p BLI
EUG 5:53p 6:33p EUG
FSD 9:24p 10:04p LAS

SA...
LAS 1:10p 2:00p TUL
TUL 8:47p 9:37p LAS

SU...
LAS 9:30a ?
ELP 10:34a 11:14a ELP
MFR 12:33p 1:20p MFR
?.................. 412p BIL
BIL 10:00p 1045p LAS
We're up.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:19 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
Here are the flight times for G4 in June...

Ar SAN Dept SAN

MO...
IDA 10:45a 11:25a IDA
LAS 11:40a 12:10p FSD
SCK 12:51p 1:31p SCK
BLI 4:07p 4:47p BLI
EUG 5:57p 6:37p EUG
FSD 7:40p 8:31p LAS

TU... No Flights

WE...
LAS 1:10p 2:00p TUL
TUL 8:47p 9:37p LAS

TH...
LAS 9:30a ?
ELP 10:34a 11:14a ELP
MFR 12:33p 1:20p MFR
?.................. 4:12p BIL
BIL 10:00p 10:45p LAS

FR...
SCK 9:31a 10:11a SCK
IDA 10:45a 11:25a IDA
LAS 1:38p 2:18p FSD
BLI 4:07p 4:47p BLI
EUG 5:53p 6:33p EUG
FSD 9:24p 10:04p LAS

SA...
LAS 1:10p 2:00p TUL
TUL 8:47p 9:37p LAS

SU...
LAS 9:30a ?
ELP 10:34a 11:14a ELP
MFR 12:33p 1:20p MFR
?.................. 412p BIL
BIL 10:00p 1045p LAS


Thanks for the information!

Not a lot of slack in the system, but it appears as though G4 can get away with just one gate. Monday has one gap of 15 minutes, one of 41 minutes, and two at just over one hour, and Friday has one 34-minute turnaround. Everything else shows pretty clear. However, we've all heard those words, "well, folks, it looks like we'll be on the ground waiting for a gate to open up. In the meantime, please stay seated with your seatbelts fastened for an indeterminate period of time..."
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:10 pm

The Union-Tribune in Spanish recently reported that TIJ has been approved to operate 24 hours a day. They're currently closed from 3am-7am. San Diego airport is closed for departures from 11:30pm to 6:30am.

Would someone with aviation background fill me in as to what types of flights we're missing out on or the impact of the curfew at SAN? I see the side effects of having a lot of early flights ready to take off each morning around the same time. Also, I imagine airlines don't want to fly into San Diego late in the evening and end up having their aircraft stuck on the ground when they could've been flying somewhere else around the country (and making money) during the curfew hours. I also imagine airlines pass the cost of having planes on the ground onto the folks flying in/out of SAN? It makes me mad that I see tickets to Europe or Asia so much cheaper out of LAX vs SAN. I understand there's more competition there but does the curfew add cost too?

It seems like some folks on this forum have a lot of insider aviation knowledge. I'm just a fan of aviation.

I'd appreciate any insights.
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:44 am

Coronado990 wrote:
SANFan wrote:
I don't have the time right now to create a complete turn-sked for the 2020 summer schedules and more power to anyone else out there who wants to take the time to do so.
bb

Here are the flight times for G4 in June...

Ar SAN Dept SAN
MO...
IDA 10:45a 11:25a IDA
LAS 11:40a 12:10p FSD
SCK 12:51p 1:31p SCK
BLI 4:07p 4:47p BLI
EUG 5:57p 6:37p EUG
FSD 7:40p 8:31p LAS

TU... No Flights

WE...
LAS 1:10p 2:00p TUL
TUL 8:47p 9:37p LAS

TH...
LAS 9:30a ?
ELP 10:34a 11:14a ELP
MFR 12:33p 1:20p MFR
?.................. 4:12p BIL
BIL 10:00p 10:45p LAS

FR...
SCK 9:31a 10:11a SCK
IDA 10:45a 11:25a IDA
LAS 1:38p 2:18p FSD
BLI 4:07p 4:47p BLI
EUG 5:53p 6:33p EUG
FSD 9:24p 10:04p LAS

SA...
LAS 1:10p 2:00p TUL
TUL 8:47p 9:37p LAS

SU...
LAS 9:30a ?
ELP 10:34a 11:14a ELP
MFR 12:33p 1:20p MFR
?.................. 412p BIL
BIL 10:00p 1045p LAS


Great job, D! Thanx so much for doing that!

It certainly does look like at least one more new route (on Th & Su) is coming; I suppose Tu could be thrown in there too but that would be a surprise. (For staffing purposes, it appears that G4 has arranged everything to happen on 6 days of the week and that's not by accident.)

The new routes could be to almost anywhere but I wonder if there's a chance that PVU might return? (It was last served in 2017.)

What the heck, I'm gonna throw out another guess, this one based on distance/flight time, traffic, etc., for another new Allegiant route: GJT (Grand Junction, CO.) Why another route wasn't announced along with the others is a mystery; of course there could always be more than one more!

BTW, some here seem worried about gates and how many G4 has or will have. To the best of my knowledge -- someone please confirm -- all of T1W is CUTE, or whatever the new term is, so any gate may be used by any of the 6 cx in T1 (including WN); the airport will just hope that not too often will all 8 gates be needed at once! If 2 G4 planes are on the ground at the same time, they should be able to use 2 gates; chances are there will be no B6 a/c around at that time. Remember that the majority of the cx in T2W, inc G4, F9, & SY, have very few -- if any - daily flights. Depending on how many gates WN needs to use in T2W, there should be about 4-5 gates to be used by the 5 T2W cx there. Of course there will be wx/mx delays that will cause gate gridlock but hopefully it won't happen often.

bb
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:43 am

Updated G4 schedule now reflecting different BIL times on TH/SU...

Ar SAN Dept SAN
MO...
IDA 10:45a 11:25a IDA
LAS 11:40a 12:10p FSD
SCK 12:51p 1:31p SCK
BLI 4:07p 4:47p BLI
EUG 5:57p 6:37p EUG
FSD 7:40p 8:31p LAS

TU... No Flights

WE...
LAS 1:10p 2:00p TUL
TUL 8:47p 9:37p LAS

TH...
LAS 9:30a 10:15a BIL
ELP 10:34a 11:14a ELP
MFR 12:33p 1:20p MFR
BIL 4:08p 4:53p LAS

FR...
SCK 9:31a 10:11a SCK
IDA 10:45a 11:25a IDA
LAS 1:38p 2:18p FSD
BLI 4:07p 4:47p BLI
EUG 5:53p 6:33p EUG
FSD 9:24p 10:04p LAS

SA...
LAS 1:10p 2:00p TUL
TUL 8:47p 9:37p LAS

SU...
LAS 9:30a 10:15a BIL
ELP 10:34a 11:14a ELP
MFR 12:33p 1:20p MFR
BIL 4:08p 4:53p LAS

Great job, D! Thanx so much for doing that!

bb[/quote]

You bet! Maybe next year they can do the same out of AZA and add something like OKC, LIT, MEM or XNA. Also the DSM and GRR bases come to mind.
We're up.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:34 am

Why can't Allegiant use the Commuter Terminal?
 
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SANFan
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:07 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Why can't Allegiant use the Commuter Terminal?

What Commuter Terminal?

bb
 
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DL717
Posts: 1936
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:15 am

vedatil4 wrote:
The Union-Tribune in Spanish recently reported that TIJ has been approved to operate 24 hours a day. They're currently closed from 3am-7am. San Diego airport is closed for departures from 11:30pm to 6:30am.

Would someone with aviation background fill me in as to what types of flights we're missing out on or the impact of the curfew at SAN? I see the side effects of having a lot of early flights ready to take off each morning around the same time. Also, I imagine airlines don't want to fly into San Diego late in the evening and end up having their aircraft stuck on the ground when they could've been flying somewhere else around the country (and making money) during the curfew hours. I also imagine airlines pass the cost of having planes on the ground onto the folks flying in/out of SAN? It makes me mad that I see tickets to Europe or Asia so much cheaper out of LAX vs SAN. I understand there's more competition there but does the curfew add cost too?

It seems like some folks on this forum have a lot of insider aviation knowledge. I'm just a fan of aviation.

I'd appreciate any insights.


Probably a red eye to Dallas and Houston. Not much else.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
wnflyguy
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:15 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Why can't Allegiant use the Commuter Terminal?


I believe Allegiant shares gate 18 with Sun Country in SAN.

Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:18 pm

I noticed that Delta used Gate 47 for their 757-300 flight today. Gate 47 is normally reserved for international airlines. Does the 757-300 not fit in any of Delta's domestic gates?

Which gates does Delta normally use?
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:28 pm

No one, repeat, no one, can use the Commuter Terminal at SAN anymore:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1408309&p=21139425&hilit=commuter+terminal+SAN#p21139425

I was officially the last person out. When the new Terminal 1 begins construction at SAN, that building, currently housing offices, will be torn down.

vedatil4 wrote:
The Union-Tribune in Spanish recently reported that TIJ has been approved to operate 24 hours a day. They're currently closed from 3am-7am. San Diego airport is closed for departures from 11:30pm to 6:30am.

Would someone with aviation background fill me in as to what types of flights we're missing out on or the impact of the curfew at SAN? I see the side effects of having a lot of early flights ready to take off each morning around the same time. Also, I imagine airlines don't want to fly into San Diego late in the evening and end up having their aircraft stuck on the ground when they could've been flying somewhere else around the country (and making money) during the curfew hours. I also imagine airlines pass the cost of having planes on the ground onto the folks flying in/out of SAN? It makes me mad that I see tickets to Europe or Asia so much cheaper out of LAX vs SAN. I understand there's more competition there but does the curfew add cost too?

It seems like some folks on this forum have a lot of insider aviation knowledge. I'm just a fan of aviation.

I'd appreciate any insights.


Happy to oblige: the only flights that would operate to "hubs" as red-eye flights for which SAN is closed for take-offs are in the Central Time Zone. Eastern Time Zone-bound red-eyes have no problem, as their 9:30-10:30-ish departure time isn't a problem. BOS, JFK, EWR, IAD, DTW, CLT, ATL, MIA, as well as non-hub MCO and FLL are well served.

Our "missing" red-eyes are limited to three destinations: IAH, DFW, and MSP. Chicago (ORD) frequently has a red-eye service, departing at 11:00 PM (I have flown both United and American on this flight), and although arriving at 4:30 AM, it's popular enough to continue. It's amazing to arrive to a sleeping ORD and watch it come to life, literally before anyone else!

SAN's red-eyes to the east coast are often the first to arrive as well - with the help of FlightAware, many times I can document being the first at EWR, BOS, DTW, and ATL!

With regards to TIJ airport, I know the departure time for the HU 787 to Asia was roughly 3:45 AM. An atrocious time by anyone's standards, but that's what they had to do. How did that work with TIJ's hours?
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:29 pm

[url][/url]
wnflyguy wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Why can't Allegiant use the Commuter Terminal?


I believe Allegiant shares gate 18 with Sun Country in SAN.

Flyguy

Spirit was also using Gate 18 yesterday. Alaska uses the Commuter Terminal to park aircraft to free up gates in T2E.
 
GRUIAD
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:29 pm

I think TIJ had a temporary hard closure during runway construction work. But operationally it doesn’t have a curfew. So the U-T article may be referencing that the temporary runway work was complete.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:34 am

Does JetBlue have the most flights out of Terminal 1 West?
 
vedatil4
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:38 pm

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:27 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
The Union-Tribune in Spanish recently reported that TIJ has been approved to operate 24 hours a day. They're currently closed from 3am-7am. San Diego airport is closed for departures from 11:30pm to 6:30am.

Would someone with aviation background fill me in as to what types of flights we're missing out on or the impact of the curfew at SAN? I see the side effects of having a lot of early flights ready to take off each morning around the same time. Also, I imagine airlines don't want to fly into San Diego late in the evening and end up having their aircraft stuck on the ground when they could've been flying somewhere else around the country (and making money) during the curfew hours. I also imagine airlines pass the cost of having planes on the ground onto the folks flying in/out of SAN? It makes me mad that I see tickets to Europe or Asia so much cheaper out of LAX vs SAN. I understand there's more competition there but does the curfew add cost too?

It seems like some folks on this forum have a lot of insider aviation knowledge. I'm just a fan of aviation.

I'd appreciate any insights.


Happy to oblige: the only flights that would operate to "hubs" as red-eye flights for which SAN is closed for take-offs are in the Central Time Zone. Eastern Time Zone-bound red-eyes have no problem, as their 9:30-10:30-ish departure time isn't a problem. BOS, JFK, EWR, IAD, DTW, CLT, ATL, MIA, as well as non-hub MCO and FLL are well served.

Our "missing" red-eyes are limited to three destinations: IAH, DFW, and MSP. Chicago (ORD) frequently has a red-eye service, departing at 11:00 PM (I have flown both United and American on this flight), and although arriving at 4:30 AM, it's popular enough to continue. It's amazing to arrive to a sleeping ORD and watch it come to life, literally before anyone else!

SAN's red-eyes to the east coast are often the first to arrive as well - with the help of FlightAware, many times I can document being the first at EWR, BOS, DTW, and ATL!

With regards to TIJ airport, I know the departure time for the HU 787 to Asia was roughly 3:45 AM. An atrocious time by anyone's standards, but that's what they had to do. How did that work with TIJ's hours?[/quote]

Thank you for clarifying. It's a bummer that we're missing out on red-eyes to Houston and Dallas. In turn we also lose out on connecting flights to interesting places south from there. :-(

TIJ's curfew must've been temporary as someone else pointed out. I remember the horrendous Hainan 3:45am departure time back to China.

I've read articles in Spanish that make it seem like the Hainan flight will be back after runway work is finished. I hope so. That was an interesting flight and an easy plane to spot flying over the south part of town.

I wonder how those pessengers TIJ w/CBX experience compared with landing at LAX? I've heard that getting through immigration at LAX can be a 2-hour ordeal. Maybe the 3:45am pain was worth it to some?

I experienced the ORD coming-to-life you describe on my way to Montreal last year. I flew with AA that time.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:14 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
The Union-Tribune in Spanish recently reported that TIJ has been approved to operate 24 hours a day. They're currently closed from 3am-7am. San Diego airport is closed for departures from 11:30pm to 6:30am.

Would someone with aviation background fill me in as to what types of flights we're missing out on or the impact of the curfew at SAN? I see the side effects of having a lot of early flights ready to take off each morning around the same time. Also, I imagine airlines don't want to fly into San Diego late in the evening and end up having their aircraft stuck on the ground when they could've been flying somewhere else around the country (and making money) during the curfew hours. I also imagine airlines pass the cost of having planes on the ground onto the folks flying in/out of SAN? It makes me mad that I see tickets to Europe or Asia so much cheaper out of LAX vs SAN. I understand there's more competition there but does the curfew add cost too?

It seems like some folks on this forum have a lot of insider aviation knowledge. I'm just a fan of aviation.

I'd appreciate any insights.

Happy to oblige: the only flights that would operate to "hubs" as red-eye flights for which SAN is closed for take-offs are in the Central Time Zone. Eastern Time Zone-bound red-eyes have no problem, as their 9:30-10:30-ish departure time isn't a problem. BOS, JFK, EWR, IAD, DTW, CLT, ATL, MIA, as well as non-hub MCO and FLL are well served.

Our "missing" red-eyes are limited to three destinations: IAH, DFW, and MSP. Chicago (ORD) frequently has a red-eye service, departing at 11:00 PM (I have flown both United and American on this flight), and although arriving at 4:30 AM, it's popular enough to continue. It's amazing to arrive to a sleeping ORD and watch it come to life, literally before anyone else!

SAN's red-eyes to the east coast are often the first to arrive as well - with the help of FlightAware, many times I can document being the first at EWR, BOS, DTW, and ATL!

With regards to TIJ airport, I know the departure time for the HU 787 to Asia was roughly 3:45 AM. An atrocious time by anyone's standards, but that's what they had to do. How did that work with TIJ's hours?

Thank you for clarifying. It's a bummer that we're missing out on red-eyes to Houston and Dallas. In turn we also lose out on connecting flights to interesting places south from there. :-(

TIJ's curfew must've been temporary as someone else pointed out. I remember the horrendous Hainan 3:45am departure time back to China.

I've read articles in Spanish that make it seem like the Hainan flight will be back after runway work is finished. I hope so. That was an interesting flight and an easy plane to spot flying over the south part of town.

I wonder how those pessengers TIJ w/CBX experience compared with landing at LAX? I've heard that getting through immigration at LAX can be a 2-hour ordeal. Maybe the 3:45am pain was worth it to some?

I experienced the ORD coming-to-life you describe on my way to Montreal last year. I flew with AA that time.


Agreed with loss of the three potential red-eyes, but all of them are well covered during the day, and the number of places accessible ONLY from DFW or IAH or MSP is relatively small, and most of those would be smaller cities accessible during the day.

I would also love to see the passenger data on the Hainan flight, including how many people from the U.S. were using that flight. Hopefully after the Corona virus situation (which will take longer than any runway work at TIJ!), we will see this flight return.

From the school I teach at in National City, I have seen this plane fly over me. The concept of globalization doesn't really hit home until you see this and realize what it is and where it heading to and from.
 
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lindy field
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:01 pm

As far as the curfew is concerned, and what San Diego is missing by being closed to departures from 11:30pm to 6:30am, I would add (1) possible international service to Asia and Latin American destinations and (2) cargo flights. If you have a look at operations from other Californian airports (SFO, LAX, FAT), you'll see that it's common for flights to Asia to depart from California across the Pacific in the late evening. LAX and SFO have a bank of transpacific flights that leave at around 1-1:30 A.M. Flights to Mexico and Central America arrive in the late evening and turn back around 1 A.M. At SFO and LAX, there are a series of international cargo flights that operate in the dead of night. Given the location of SAN in the middle of the city, I wouldn't dream of trying to lift the curfew, but I think it does serve as an obstacle to some kinds of service that San Diego might otherwise have.
 
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LindyFlight
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:22 pm

lindy field wrote:
As far as the curfew is concerned, and what San Diego is missing by being closed to departures from 11:30pm to 6:30am, I would add (1) possible international service to Asia and Latin American destinations and (2) cargo flights. If you have a look at operations from other Californian airports (SFO, LAX, FAT), you'll see that it's common for flights to Asia to depart from California across the Pacific in the late evening. LAX and SFO have a bank of transpacific flights that leave at around 1-1:30 A.M. Flights to Mexico and Central America arrive in the late evening and turn back around 1 A.M. At SFO and LAX, there are a series of international cargo flights that operate in the dead of night. Given the location of SAN in the middle of the city, I wouldn't dream of trying to lift the curfew, but I think it does serve as an obstacle to some kinds of service that San Diego might otherwise have.


For international service, i'd think PR and CM would best fit as late evening arrivals/departures. For example, PR103 LAX-MNL and CM365 LAX-PTY depart LAX around 9:00PM. The cargo ramp is fairly inactive past 8:00PM when the FX 757 departs for OAK so maybe additional FX or 5X, maybe even new metal in Prime Air.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:26 pm

Utilizing LAX departures post-9PM on Monday, February 17, 2020, as a model, I found the following departures to non-Mexico Latin America / Philippines as "red-eyes":

Copa #362 dp LAX 9:14 PM ar PTY 6:07 AM +1
PAL #103 dp LAX 9:28 PM ar MNL 4:05 AM +2
Volaris Costa Rica #579 dp LAX 10:55 AM ar GUA 5:30 AM+1
Copa #303 dp LAX 11:08 PM ar PTY 8:18 AM +1
Taca #525 dp LAX 11:17 PM ar SAL 5:40 AM +1
DL #1186 dp LAX 11:32 PM ar SJO 7:15 AM +1
DL #1394 dp LAX 12:34 AM ar GUA 6:43 AM
Taca #529 dp LAX 12:37 AM ar SAL 7:02 AM
Volaris Costa Rica #409a dp LAX 12:53 AM ar SAL 7:46 AM
Taca #521 dp LAX 1:03 AM ar SAL 7:16 AM (don't ask me how this flight beat the other flight!)

And for that Monday evening/Tuesday morning, that was it.

I left out Mexico entirely, as TIJ functions as San Diego's "Mexico" airport. Everything that has ever been tried ends up failing, other than to San Jose Del Cabo and seasonal beach service elsewhere. Counting only Central America, there are only flights to GUA, SAL, SJO, and PTY. Panama (and obviously Panama City) are in the Eastern Time Zone, whereas the rest of Central America is in, ironically enough, "Central" Time Zone. The two PTY red-eyes show a HUGE demand to PTY to arrive in the morning, and both of the flights departed outside of SAN's curfew. I wouldn't want to push it with that later flight, but the first one of the evening is no different than say SAN-ATL in terms of timing.

I included the Philippine Airlines red-eye, as theoretically that could work; however, given the double-rotation daily to LAX, with one red-eye and one-non, timing on any kind of service, most probably being a one-stop, would be radically different.

Is there a market for non-stops to GUA, SAL, or SJO from San Diego?

Cargo: yeah, this one is tough. But given that one can land at anytime at SAN - and those cargo flights really do - the take-off restriction isn't as horrible as one might assume. They are not trying to time the flight to arrive in the east around 6:00 AM; they need it to arrive at Memphis or Louisville (or elsewhere) in the middle of the night for their processing. As such, those flights don't need to take-off after midnight from SAN.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:57 pm

I am surprised Aeromexico wasn’t able to make a profit on SAN-MEX with all the wealthy Mexican businessmen living in San Diego and Coronado.

For a time, Aeromexico had their own ticketing office on Broadway in Downtown San Diego. I believe that closed in 2013.
 
vedatil4
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:15 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Utilizing LAX departures post-9PM on Monday, February 17, 2020, as a model, I found the following departures to non-Mexico Latin America / Philippines as "red-eyes":

Copa #362 dp LAX 9:14 PM ar PTY 6:07 AM +1
PAL #103 dp LAX 9:28 PM ar MNL 4:05 AM +2
Volaris Costa Rica #579 dp LAX 10:55 AM ar GUA 5:30 AM+1
Copa #303 dp LAX 11:08 PM ar PTY 8:18 AM +1
Taca #525 dp LAX 11:17 PM ar SAL 5:40 AM +1
DL #1186 dp LAX 11:32 PM ar SJO 7:15 AM +1
DL #1394 dp LAX 12:34 AM ar GUA 6:43 AM
Taca #529 dp LAX 12:37 AM ar SAL 7:02 AM
Volaris Costa Rica #409a dp LAX 12:53 AM ar SAL 7:46 AM
Taca #521 dp LAX 1:03 AM ar SAL 7:16 AM (don't ask me how this flight beat the other flight!)

And for that Monday evening/Tuesday morning, that was it.

I left out Mexico entirely, as TIJ functions as San Diego's "Mexico" airport. Everything that has ever been tried ends up failing, other than to San Jose Del Cabo and seasonal beach service elsewhere. Counting only Central America, there are only flights to GUA, SAL, SJO, and PTY. Panama (and obviously Panama City) are in the Eastern Time Zone, whereas the rest of Central America is in, ironically enough, "Central" Time Zone. The two PTY red-eyes show a HUGE demand to PTY to arrive in the morning, and both of the flights departed outside of SAN's curfew. I wouldn't want to push it with that later flight, but the first one of the evening is no different than say SAN-ATL in terms of timing.

I included the Philippine Airlines red-eye, as theoretically that could work; however, given the double-rotation daily to LAX, with one red-eye and one-non, timing on any kind of service, most probably being a one-stop, would be radically different.

Is there a market for non-stops to GUA, SAL, or SJO from San Diego?

Cargo: yeah, this one is tough. But given that one can land at anytime at SAN - and those cargo flights really do - the take-off restriction isn't as horrible as one might assume. They are not trying to time the flight to arrive in the east around 6:00 AM; they need it to arrive at Memphis or Louisville (or elsewhere) in the middle of the night for their processing. As such, those flights don't need to take-off after midnight from SAN.


Thanks for the insight and breakdown. It would be nice if either SAN or TIJ could at least score one PTY flight. From there passengers can connect to some great spots in the Caribbean and South America.

I don't think there's much of a market for GUA, SAL, or SJO in San Diego. When those flights existed in TIJ, I think most of the people were crossing the CBX to go up to the LA or inland empire area. There's hope some of those flights might come back once the "in-transit" building is finished.

I wish PR flew straight from here to Manila. I have lots of Filipino friends that have to make the trek to & from LAX when they want visit relatives. They either do that or they have to fly to Tokyo on JAL then to Manila.

You excluded Mexico in your analysis but it sure would be nice to have a daily round-trip non-stop to Cancun at reasonable hours.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:46 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Utilizing LAX departures post-9PM on Monday, February 17, 2020, as a model, I found the following departures to non-Mexico Latin America / Philippines as "red-eyes":

Copa #362 dp LAX 9:14 PM ar PTY 6:07 AM +1
PAL #103 dp LAX 9:28 PM ar MNL 4:05 AM +2
Volaris Costa Rica #579 dp LAX 10:55 AM ar GUA 5:30 AM+1
Copa #303 dp LAX 11:08 PM ar PTY 8:18 AM +1
Taca #525 dp LAX 11:17 PM ar SAL 5:40 AM +1
DL #1186 dp LAX 11:32 PM ar SJO 7:15 AM +1
DL #1394 dp LAX 12:34 AM ar GUA 6:43 AM
Taca #529 dp LAX 12:37 AM ar SAL 7:02 AM
Volaris Costa Rica #409a dp LAX 12:53 AM ar SAL 7:46 AM
Taca #521 dp LAX 1:03 AM ar SAL 7:16 AM (don't ask me how this flight beat the other flight!)

And for that Monday evening/Tuesday morning, that was it.

I left out Mexico entirely, as TIJ functions as San Diego's "Mexico" airport. Everything that has ever been tried ends up failing, other than to San Jose Del Cabo and seasonal beach service elsewhere. Counting only Central America, there are only flights to GUA, SAL, SJO, and PTY. Panama (and obviously Panama City) are in the Eastern Time Zone, whereas the rest of Central America is in, ironically enough, "Central" Time Zone. The two PTY red-eyes show a HUGE demand to PTY to arrive in the morning, and both of the flights departed outside of SAN's curfew. I wouldn't want to push it with that later flight, but the first one of the evening is no different than say SAN-ATL in terms of timing.

I included the Philippine Airlines red-eye, as theoretically that could work; however, given the double-rotation daily to LAX, with one red-eye and one-non, timing on any kind of service, most probably being a one-stop, would be radically different.

Is there a market for non-stops to GUA, SAL, or SJO from San Diego?

Cargo: yeah, this one is tough. But given that one can land at anytime at SAN - and those cargo flights really do - the take-off restriction isn't as horrible as one might assume. They are not trying to time the flight to arrive in the east around 6:00 AM; they need it to arrive at Memphis or Louisville (or elsewhere) in the middle of the night for their processing. As such, those flights don't need to take-off after midnight from SAN.


Thanks for the insight and breakdown. It would be nice if either SAN or TIJ could at least score one PTY flight. From there passengers can connect to some great spots in the Caribbean and South America.

I don't think there's much of a market for GUA, SAL, or SJO in San Diego. When those flights existed in TIJ, I think most of the people were crossing the CBX to go up to the LA or inland empire area. There's hope some of those flights might come back once the "in-transit" building is finished.

I wish PR flew straight from here to Manila. I have lots of Filipino friends that have to make the trek to & from LAX when they want visit relatives. They either do that or they have to fly to Tokyo on JAL then to Manila.

You excluded Mexico in your analysis but it sure would be nice to have a daily round-trip non-stop to Cancun at reasonable hours.


The number of Filipino students I have at my school that fly regularly to Manila is quite large. For most of them, PAL is the only choice their parents look at, because it's a non-stop, and it's usually cheaper. A couple have done SAN-NRT-MNL, but by and large, PAL has that diaspora market locked, and with two 777's daily (about twelve hours apart), PAL would have to keep both flights - and their yields - but also tap into San Diego. I don't think there's enough premium demand to do so at this time.

Demand for travel to Central America from San Diego I don't think exists. Not in numbers nearly large enough to support a flight. SAN-XXX-Latin America (or even TIJ-MEX-Latin America) take care of whatever demand there is from SAN. But PTY is different - I know there have been rumors of talks with SAN, and although nothing has come to fruition, their flight times would sustain that red-eye with no problems.

Mexico, on the other hand, is tricky. Most places can be reached from TIJ either directly or via MEX; however, CUN is the oddball. Perhaps San Diegans are too loyal to their FF miles, and simply fly via IAH, DFW, and/or ATL (among other connecting airports). I guess the numbers just aren't there.
 
blacksoviet
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:50 am

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:54 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Utilizing LAX departures post-9PM on Monday, February 17, 2020, as a model, I found the following departures to non-Mexico Latin America / Philippines as "red-eyes":

Copa #362 dp LAX 9:14 PM ar PTY 6:07 AM +1
PAL #103 dp LAX 9:28 PM ar MNL 4:05 AM +2
Volaris Costa Rica #579 dp LAX 10:55 AM ar GUA 5:30 AM+1
Copa #303 dp LAX 11:08 PM ar PTY 8:18 AM +1
Taca #525 dp LAX 11:17 PM ar SAL 5:40 AM +1
DL #1186 dp LAX 11:32 PM ar SJO 7:15 AM +1
DL #1394 dp LAX 12:34 AM ar GUA 6:43 AM
Taca #529 dp LAX 12:37 AM ar SAL 7:02 AM
Volaris Costa Rica #409a dp LAX 12:53 AM ar SAL 7:46 AM
Taca #521 dp LAX 1:03 AM ar SAL 7:16 AM (don't ask me how this flight beat the other flight!)

And for that Monday evening/Tuesday morning, that was it.

I left out Mexico entirely, as TIJ functions as San Diego's "Mexico" airport. Everything that has ever been tried ends up failing, other than to San Jose Del Cabo and seasonal beach service elsewhere. Counting only Central America, there are only flights to GUA, SAL, SJO, and PTY. Panama (and obviously Panama City) are in the Eastern Time Zone, whereas the rest of Central America is in, ironically enough, "Central" Time Zone. The two PTY red-eyes show a HUGE demand to PTY to arrive in the morning, and both of the flights departed outside of SAN's curfew. I wouldn't want to push it with that later flight, but the first one of the evening is no different than say SAN-ATL in terms of timing.

I included the Philippine Airlines red-eye, as theoretically that could work; however, given the double-rotation daily to LAX, with one red-eye and one-non, timing on any kind of service, most probably being a one-stop, would be radically different.

Is there a market for non-stops to GUA, SAL, or SJO from San Diego?

Cargo: yeah, this one is tough. But given that one can land at anytime at SAN - and those cargo flights really do - the take-off restriction isn't as horrible as one might assume. They are not trying to time the flight to arrive in the east around 6:00 AM; they need it to arrive at Memphis or Louisville (or elsewhere) in the middle of the night for their processing. As such, those flights don't need to take-off after midnight from SAN.


Thanks for the insight and breakdown. It would be nice if either SAN or TIJ could at least score one PTY flight. From there passengers can connect to some great spots in the Caribbean and South America.

I don't think there's much of a market for GUA, SAL, or SJO in San Diego. When those flights existed in TIJ, I think most of the people were crossing the CBX to go up to the LA or inland empire area. There's hope some of those flights might come back once the "in-transit" building is finished.

I wish PR flew straight from here to Manila. I have lots of Filipino friends that have to make the trek to & from LAX when they want visit relatives. They either do that or they have to fly to Tokyo on JAL then to Manila.

You excluded Mexico in your analysis but it sure would be nice to have a daily round-trip non-stop to Cancun at reasonable hours.


The number of Filipino students I have at my school that fly regularly to Manila is quite large. For most of them, PAL is the only choice their parents look at, because it's a non-stop, and it's usually cheaper. A couple have done SAN-NRT-MNL, but by and large, PAL has that diaspora market locked, and with two 777's daily (about twelve hours apart), PAL would have to keep both flights - and their yields - but also tap into San Diego. I don't think there's enough premium demand to do so at this time.

Demand for travel to Central America from San Diego I don't think exists. Not in numbers nearly large enough to support a flight. SAN-XXX-Latin America (or even TIJ-MEX-Latin America) take care of whatever demand there is from SAN. But PTY is different - I know there have been rumors of talks with SAN, and although nothing has come to fruition, their flight times would sustain that red-eye with no problems.

Mexico, on the other hand, is tricky. Most places can be reached from TIJ either directly or via MEX; however, CUN is the oddball. Perhaps San Diegans are too loyal to their FF miles, and simply fly via IAH, DFW, and/or ATL (among other connecting airports). I guess the numbers just aren't there.

Would your Filipino parents be willing to spend more for a non-stop flight to MNL?

Does the A221 have enough range to fly SAN-SJO? I would love to see Delta or some other carrier start a point-to-point flight but I don’t think the A220 has enough range and the 73G is too big.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 1015
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:20 am

blacksoviet wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
vedatil4 wrote:

Thanks for the insight and breakdown. It would be nice if either SAN or TIJ could at least score one PTY flight. From there passengers can connect to some great spots in the Caribbean and South America.

I don't think there's much of a market for GUA, SAL, or SJO in San Diego. When those flights existed in TIJ, I think most of the people were crossing the CBX to go up to the LA or inland empire area. There's hope some of those flights might come back once the "in-transit" building is finished.

I wish PR flew straight from here to Manila. I have lots of Filipino friends that have to make the trek to & from LAX when they want visit relatives. They either do that or they have to fly to Tokyo on JAL then to Manila.

You excluded Mexico in your analysis but it sure would be nice to have a daily round-trip non-stop to Cancun at reasonable hours.


The number of Filipino students I have at my school that fly regularly to Manila is quite large. For most of them, PAL is the only choice their parents look at, because it's a non-stop, and it's usually cheaper. A couple have done SAN-NRT-MNL, but by and large, PAL has that diaspora market locked, and with two 777's daily (about twelve hours apart), PAL would have to keep both flights - and their yields - but also tap into San Diego. I don't think there's enough premium demand to do so at this time.

Demand for travel to Central America from San Diego I don't think exists. Not in numbers nearly large enough to support a flight. SAN-XXX-Latin America (or even TIJ-MEX-Latin America) take care of whatever demand there is from SAN. But PTY is different - I know there have been rumors of talks with SAN, and although nothing has come to fruition, their flight times would sustain that red-eye with no problems.

Mexico, on the other hand, is tricky. Most places can be reached from TIJ either directly or via MEX; however, CUN is the oddball. Perhaps San Diegans are too loyal to their FF miles, and simply fly via IAH, DFW, and/or ATL (among other connecting airports). I guess the numbers just aren't there.

Would your Filipino parents be willing to spend more for a non-stop flight to MNL?

Does the A221 have enough range to fly SAN-SJO? I would love to see Delta or some other carrier start a point-to-point flight but I don’t think the A220 has enough range and the 73G is too big.


Nope! These are families that travel, and a few dollars here and there for a family of four (at least!) adds up to a lot. PAL also has express bus service to LAX from many neighborhoods in San Diego.

I would also postulate that, in all probability, SAN-PTY will happen first, with no other Latin American airline able to benefit from the incentive program SAN offers to new international entrants. If Copa begins, TACA (most likely) would have to wait for a significant amount of time before the incentives would benefit them. And unless the business ties develop with San Jose, CR, then it's even more unlikely.
 
cheapflier
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:26 am

SANFan wrote:
BTW, some here seem worried about gates and how many G4 has or will have. To the best of my knowledge -- someone please confirm -- all of T1W is CUTE, or whatever the new term is, so any gate may be used by any of the 6 cx in T1 (including WN); the airport will just hope that not too often will all 8 gates be needed at once! If 2 G4 planes are on the ground at the same time, they should be able to use 2 gates; chances are there will be no B6 a/c around at that time. Remember that the majority of the cx in T2W, inc G4, F9, & SY, have very few -- if any - daily flights. Depending on how many gates WN needs to use in T2W, there should be about 4-5 gates to be used by the 5 T2W cx there. Of course there will be wx/mx delays that will cause gate gridlock but hopefully it won't happen often.

bb


I think you're right that T1W is all CUTE, but since B6 moved over it's possible they have one gate or at the very least preferential use. Even so, SDCRAA has the right to put a plane at another airline's gate if there are no CUTE gates available in some circumstances.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:57 pm

vedatil4 wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:
Does CJS/ELP have something similar to CBX? Otherwise, people using TIJ-CJS an an alternative to SAN-ELP will still have to deal with the land border crossing on the ELP/CJS end.

As far as western Canada, BLI is actually quite a bit closer than SEA. If memory serves, going after BC traffic was a major reason Allegiant started their base there.


TIJ is unique in that it's only a few hundred feet south of the border. CJS is much further south from the border and can't have a CBX-style bridge. So after flying there, passengers would need to catch a 1/2 hour taxi ride to the border. The border crossing won't be so bad if they already have Sentri cards.

On the northern border, a cheap alternative for Canadians in the Montreal area is to drive down to Plattsburgh or Burlington to catch US domestic flights. .

I flew to Burlington from San Diego once then caught a Greyhound there to Montreal. It's an open secret. The taxi driver that took me from the airport to the bus terminal asked me I was heading to Montreal.

I've considered flying from San Diego to Bellingham. But the flight times weren't so great. Of course I'd be heading to Vancouver to score some maple syrup cookies and to enjoy the metric system.


SAN & TIJ are very unique. If it wasn't for SJD and PVR, there are no other shared destinations. You would think at least a TIJ-LAS flight would work out of the Tijuana airport.

But thinking out of the box, maybe CLD could support flights to Mexico since North County is a farther distance from the CBX then South Bay and Mid-city. It could pull from Orange County as well. Could AM fly a E-175 from CLD-SJD-MEX? That sure would give the airport a lift.
We're up.
 
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SANFan
Posts: 5241
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Re: San Diego Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:02 pm

SAN has finally released their final 2019 pax figures. Our itty-bitty airport has now surpassed 25M annual pax - maybe we will now be perceived as tiny in size, but large in stature! (How about the "Biggest Little Airport in America!"?)

> Dec 2019 pax count: 2,131,289, up 8.8% y-o-y; again it is to be noted that the busiest travel day of the year, the Sunday after Thanksgiving, fell in December last year so November showed low pax counts while December was unusually high. As the airport explained it, if Nov and Dec are combined, both months would average ~3-4% growth.
> 2019 Total pax: 25,216,947! The yearly growth rate for pax is pegged at an even 4.0% over 2018, less than half of the growth rate for 2018 (9.3%) but still a healthy rate.
> 2019 Total air operations: 231,354, up 2.8%
> Dec 2019 int'l pax count: 87,284, up 3.0% y-o-y. Nice to see!
> 2019 Total Int'l pax count: 1,053,772, up .9%; at least we managed to register a (barely) positive figure here but it remains rather scary to me..... Int'l pax growth at SAN to me looks dangerously close to flat.
>some carrier growth rates for Dec 2019: WN - 39% (up); AS - 13.9% (down); DL - 12.5% (up); AA - 12.4% (up).

Here's the link to this report: https://www.san.org/DesktopModules/Brin ... &TabId=403

bb

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