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airplaneboy
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Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:08 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
FATFlyer wrote:
new cities appear to be coming in now at fewer than 7 or 8 flights per day to start.

The old way of looking at WN adds may be gone for the next year or two.


The old way of looking at WN adds is probably gone for good. Aside from MIA, CVG was probably the last market ever to be added by WN in that fashion. Anything left in the continental U.S. realm (GSO being by far the largest market in terms of population) probably can't support more than a handful of daily flights, even in season. If WN ever did add GSO, it would probably look a lot like GSP.

Further afield, be it Alaska or abroad, I can't see anything starting out at 7-8 flights either. Even something like ANC, YVR or YYZ would probably only start with a few daily flights. Anything beyond that would just be too risky.


This is a sound observation. The pandemic has literally shattered all travel forecasts when it comes to predicting demand and seasonality with markets. Fortunately for WN, their mostly point to point model has afforded them greater market relevance and brand recognition to be have a decent shot at adding destinations with fewer frequencies than before the pandemic. Going forward, at least for the time being - I see them focusing more on connections through focus cities/hubs versus point to point services that were geared more toward business travel.
 
jplatts
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Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:51 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
FATFlyer wrote:
new cities appear to be coming in now at fewer than 7 or 8 flights per day to start.

The old way of looking at WN adds may be gone for the next year or two.


The old way of looking at WN adds is probably gone for good. Aside from MIA, CVG was probably the last market ever to be added by WN in that fashion. Anything left in the continental U.S. realm (GSO being by far the largest market in terms of population) probably can't support more than a handful of daily flights, even in season. If WN ever did add GSO, it would probably look a lot like GSP.


WN had mentioned possibly adding service to SAV and MYR with SAV and MYR being the two top U.S. markets by number of domestic passengers carried in 2019 that aren't currently served by WN.

If WN did add service to GSO, I could see WN adding GSO-ATL/BWI/MDW nonstop service, with the latter two added for connections to destinations that WN doesn't serve nonstop from ATL. Atlanta and Chicago are also two of the top destinations traveled to from GSO.

I probably do not see WN ever having a large presence at GSO, but I could see GSO being a station with 5-6 daily departures and daily nonstop service to 2-3 destinations if WN adds service to GSO.

GSO is also one of the top markets by number of passengers that isn't currently served by WN, with SAV, MYR, SYR, TYS, MSN, and PSP being the only U.S. markets not served by WN that carried more domestic passengers than GSO did in 2019.

While RIC is already served by WN, WN adding RIC-MDW/DEN nonstop service are possibilities with
(a) a significant amount of passengers traveling to Chicago, Denver, and domestic destinations further west from RIC prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(b) RIC having had more demand to Chicago prior to the COVID-19 pandemic than some other contiguous U.S. markets that WN already serves nonstop from MDW,
(c) connections available at MDW and DEN on WN that aren't available through ATL on WN,
(d) RIC being one of the top destinations that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from MDW or DEN, and
(e) WN already having a FF base in Chicago, Denver, and other markets west of the Mississippi River to support RIC-MDW/DEN nonstop service.

RIC also carried more domestic passengers in 2019 than some stations that have a bigger WN presence such as ALB, BHM, BOI, ELP, LGB, SDF, ORF, PVD, RNO, TUS, and TUL. RIC is also one of the few remaining destinations in the contiguous U.S. that could probably support 8 daily departures on WN once demand for domestic air travel is back to normal levels with RIC having had more demand for domestic air travel than a few destinations that had 8+ daily departures on WN prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

I had also mentioned WN adding service to SYR as a possibility with (a) SAV and MYR being the only contiguous U.S. markets not served by WN that carried more domestic passengers than Syracuse did in 2019 and (b) WN already serving some markets that carried fewer domestic passengers than SYR did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

SYR is also one of the few remaining markets in the contiguous U.S. that probably could support 8+ daily departures on WN once demand for domestic air travel returns to normal levels, even though WN might enter SYR with fewer than 8 daily departures.
 
jco613
Posts: 286
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Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:19 pm

uconn99 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
tphuang wrote:
For MIA, I'm surprised they are adding TPA and not adding BNA. I'm also surprised they are adding 4x HOU, but nothing from DAL. Interesting choices.


Not really surprising at all. TPA is a big station for WN and it offers a somewhat more relevant set of connecting markets -- it unlike BNA has non-stops to PVD, MHT, BDL, ALB, ROC, BUF, ISP, GRR, and MEM, while BNA has BOS and a large number of West Coast markets. DFW-MIA is hub-to-hub for AA and still has more capacity on AA than we're seeing split between AA, UA, and F9 on IAH-MIA.

I'm more surprised by 3x PHX-PSP. Yes, lots of connections are available at PHX but the same is true for DEN which will only be 1x daily. Maybe they think they can push out AA? It's not a large O&D market.


BNA-BDL begins in March.

Resumes on March. It was one of the original BDL routes!
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:26 pm

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... avel-slump

I'd imagine SAV, MYR, JAC, FAT, & BZN are in the cards.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
ytib
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:22 am

Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:54 pm

So back to MTJ and the new flights....
318, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 388, 707, 717, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73Q, 735, 73G, 738, 7M8, 739, 752, 753, 742, 74L, 744, 762, 763, 772, 77L, 77W, 789, 142, CN1, CR2, CR7, DC8, DH2, DH8, D8Q, D10, D95, EM2, ER3, ER4, E70, 100, J31, M11, M83, M88, M90, SF3
 
ytib
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Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:57 pm

"Southwest will fly two to three dimes daily from Denver and on weekends from Dallas Love Field to Montrose through the winter. JetBlue is to fly from Boston Logan airport on Saturdays.

American Airlines will be returning to Montrose for the winter season, with Saturday flights from Charlotte and twice-daily services from Dallas-Fort Worth and Phoenix, and weekly from New York, as well from Chicago during busier weeks."

https://www.montrosepress.com/news/sout ... c4ed2.html
318, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 388, 707, 717, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73Q, 735, 73G, 738, 7M8, 739, 752, 753, 742, 74L, 744, 762, 763, 772, 77L, 77W, 789, 142, CN1, CR2, CR7, DC8, DH2, DH8, D8Q, D10, D95, EM2, ER3, ER4, E70, 100, J31, M11, M83, M88, M90, SF3
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:02 pm

Tack wrote:
737max8 wrote:
It wasn't that much of a gamble, the flight schedules can be pulled back at any time and they have since the beginning. And at least by offering those flights, WN was able to sell as many seats as possible.


I get what you’re saying. I think it was a smart move. They had the capitol to roll the dice on a faster recovery then most other airlines. If traffic would’ve come back, even a tad bit more, we’d be applauding their guts. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, WN is where they are because they do things differently than other carriers. You hate to see the furloughs, but all options have to be in play to save cash through to next spring.

Had an interesting dinner conversation this weekend, a few of us that left in the last few weeks got together, before we split up to the four winds of life.
Observation from the ex-marketing guy was that WN and UA seem to be tracking private jet travel, and making decisions based on where the high yield traffic is flowing to and from right now. Makes some sense when you look at the recent adds.

While the airlines are stagnant, GA travel is growing, and now running above last year in many places. At the GA regional airport where my small plane is based. Part 135 charter traffic is up 20-22% over last year, and overall traffic is up 11% for all GA.

In the past, a lot of that 135 traffic would flow to Teterboro, or other places in the Northeast, but now, at least for this area, it is going to Florida and the Southeast, Texas, and the Rockies.
 
mcg
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Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:09 pm

n562wn wrote:
I'm hoping for some Montana routes coming soon. (BZN or MSO for example). Or god forbid, ANC in the spring!


No question Boz-angeles would work well.
 
Lootess
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:44 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-08/southwest-air-to-aggressively-add-new-cities-amid-travel-slump

I'd imagine SAV, MYR, JAC, FAT, & BZN are in the cards.


Result of no involuntary furloughs stance, they need to make full utilization of every resource available so they don't look overstaffed, and find new revenue and customers under every crack possible. The old WN game plan is out the window.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:33 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
It seems like we can look forward to lots of exciting news from Southwest Airlines soon (today?). Their route map now shows Miami, Montrose and Palm Springs. However, Flint and Mexico City are back on there too. That must be a mistake as I can't see WN returning to FNT and MEX...can you?!?


UPDATE: Both FNT and MEX have been removed from the Southwest route map that is found at https://www.southwest.com/flight/routemap_dyn.html?clk=GSUBNAV-AIR-ROUTEMAP
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:03 pm

jplatts wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
It seems like we can look forward to lots of exciting news from Southwest Airlines soon (today?). Their route map now shows Miami, Montrose and Palm Springs. However, Flint and Mexico City are back on there too. That must be a mistake as I can't see WN returning to FNT and MEX...can you?!?


UPDATE: Both FNT and MEX have been removed from the Southwest route map that is found at https://www.southwest.com/flight/routemap_dyn.html?clk=GSUBNAV-AIR-ROUTEMAP


I saw that! No surprise there, though. I just can't see WN returning to either market.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:50 am

Flag posts. Do not discuss moderation in an open topic.
Winter is coming.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:22 am

The question is really how quickly airlines can set up shop in these ski towns. Staff is hard to find, rent is expensive, de-icing is required every flight, etc.
 
Flflyer83
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Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:54 am

DLASFlyer wrote:
The question is really how quickly airlines can set up shop in these ski towns. Staff is hard to find, rent is expensive, de-icing is required every flight, etc.


I’m sure there are already contractors waiting to better utilize the staff that they already have.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:39 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
The question is really how quickly airlines can set up shop in these ski towns. Staff is hard to find, rent is expensive, de-icing is required every flight, etc.


I’m sure there are already contractors waiting to better utilize the staff that they already have.


Fair. But keep in mind, too, that most of these ski country airports don’t have infinite gate space. EGE, which I guess would be the next sensible add for WN, is pretty much maxed out in season.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:54 pm

I've read this Quote from GK on several different sights .
"These first destinations are just the beginning; we are looking at more places to put People and planes to work—as quickly as we can.
It’s exciting to take the fight to the competition, and put idle aircraft and overstaffed Employees to work. This is an opportunity to generate more revenue with minimal additional costs.

And fortunately, our route map still has dozens of new airport opportunities for growth with 737s. We’ll pursue these opportunities aggressively, but not recklessly. In every case, they must meet our cash flow threshold and contribute to our recovery."

GK taking a page and lesson from his mentor HERB. Who always believed a IDLE aircraft sitting around cost you more money than one being used to produce additional revenue.

I think Spring 2021 is gonna be the biggest organic growth in WN History.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:00 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
The question is really how quickly airlines can set up shop in these ski towns. Staff is hard to find, rent is expensive, de-icing is required every flight, etc.


I’m sure there are already contractors waiting to better utilize the staff that they already have.


Fair. But keep in mind, too, that most of these ski country airports don’t have infinite gate space. EGE, which I guess would be the next sensible add for WN, is pretty much maxed out in season.


Even with the likes of reduced schedules and Delta completely ending service? It seems as though some space has opened up in the current environment?
 
jetmatt777
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Re: WN starting service to MTJ (Montrose/Telluride, CO) eff. 12/19/2020

Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:25 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
The question is really how quickly airlines can set up shop in these ski towns. Staff is hard to find, rent is expensive, de-icing is required every flight, etc.


I’m sure there are already contractors waiting to better utilize the staff that they already have.


Most airlines require exclusivity in their ground handling contracts. This is for the protection of their schedule, as well as familiarity of the crews with their fleet. If you work for Vendor A, and Vendor A handles DL and AA, you will be hired under 1 of the 2 handling contracts, not both. If you are on the DL "side", you won't be mixed with or trained on the AA stuff.

This isn't the case everywhere, but it is the rule more often than not.
 
WN732
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:26 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
I've read this Quote from GK on several different sights .
"These first destinations are just the beginning; we are looking at more places to put People and planes to work—as quickly as we can.
It’s exciting to take the fight to the competition, and put idle aircraft and overstaffed Employees to work. This is an opportunity to generate more revenue with minimal additional costs.

And fortunately, our route map still has dozens of new airport opportunities for growth with 737s. We’ll pursue these opportunities aggressively, but not recklessly. In every case, they must meet our cash flow threshold and contribute to our recovery."

GK taking a page and lesson from his mentor HERB. Who always believed a IDLE aircraft sitting around cost you more money than one being used to produce additional revenue.

I think Spring 2021 is gonna be the biggest organic growth in WN History.

Flyguy


Fresno better get in there.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 600
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:33 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
I've read this Quote from GK on several different sights .
"These first destinations are just the beginning; we are looking at more places to put People and planes to work—as quickly as we can.
It’s exciting to take the fight to the competition, and put idle aircraft and overstaffed Employees to work. This is an opportunity to generate more revenue with minimal additional costs.

And fortunately, our route map still has dozens of new airport opportunities for growth with 737s. We’ll pursue these opportunities aggressively, but not recklessly. In every case, they must meet our cash flow threshold and contribute to our recovery."

GK taking a page and lesson from his mentor HERB. Who always believed a IDLE aircraft sitting around cost you more money than one being used to produce additional revenue.

I think Spring 2021 is gonna be the biggest organic growth in WN History.

Flyguy

All while threatening to furlough Pilots, Flight Attendants, and Mechanics unless they agree to a 10% pay cut. So either they’re lying about growing the Airline and intends to furlough, or they’re trying to scare unionized employees into concessions to fuel said growth.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
Tack
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:13 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:44 pm

SWADawg wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
I've read this Quote from GK on several different sights .
"These first destinations are just the beginning; we are looking at more places to put People and planes to work—as quickly as we can.
It’s exciting to take the fight to the competition, and put idle aircraft and overstaffed Employees to work. This is an opportunity to generate more revenue with minimal additional costs.

And fortunately, our route map still has dozens of new airport opportunities for growth with 737s. We’ll pursue these opportunities aggressively, but not recklessly. In every case, they must meet our cash flow threshold and contribute to our recovery."

GK taking a page and lesson from his mentor HERB. Who always believed a IDLE aircraft sitting around cost you more money than one being used to produce additional revenue.

I think Spring 2021 is gonna be the biggest organic growth in WN History.

Flyguy

All while threatening to furlough Pilots, Flight Attendants, and Mechanics unless they agree to a 10% pay cut. So either they’re lying about growing the Airline and intends to furlough, or they’re trying to scare unionized employees into concessions to fuel said growth.


Yeah, this is going to be interesting to see how the WN unions respond. I don’t think they have ever had to deal with a legacy-like cut wages to grow scenario before.
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:48 pm

SWADawg wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
I've read this Quote from GK on several different sights .
"These first destinations are just the beginning; we are looking at more places to put People and planes to work—as quickly as we can.
It’s exciting to take the fight to the competition, and put idle aircraft and overstaffed Employees to work. This is an opportunity to generate more revenue with minimal additional costs.

And fortunately, our route map still has dozens of new airport opportunities for growth with 737s. We’ll pursue these opportunities aggressively, but not recklessly. In every case, they must meet our cash flow threshold and contribute to our recovery."

GK taking a page and lesson from his mentor HERB. Who always believed a IDLE aircraft sitting around cost you more money than one being used to produce additional revenue.

I think Spring 2021 is gonna be the biggest organic growth in WN History.

Flyguy

All while threatening to furlough Pilots, Flight Attendants, and Mechanics unless they agree to a 10% pay cut. So either they’re lying about growing the Airline and intends to furlough, or they’re trying to scare unionized employees into concessions to fuel said growth.


Or without this growth they’ll be forced to furlough even more than they would without it.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:29 pm

Have they opened the 5 gate addition on Concourse A at BWI yet?
 
wnflyguy
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:13 pm

With the latest moves from WN I wouldn't be surprised if they were actively looking at the available gates and slots at JFK.
Also once The new terminal at EWR opens up there going to go back. Probably not at the 18 flights a day as before but feed MDW,DEN and DAL.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:31 pm

AmericanAir88 wrote:
Southwest is a big strategy maker. I really applaud their bravery. Whats next? DFW or EWR?

Honestly, they need to go back to EWR or build up at LGA. NYC is a market they are missing.


Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, load factors, and PDEW's for BWI-LGA/EWR in 2012:
BWI-LGA - 215019 passengers, 292678 seats, 73.47% load factor, PDEW of 60 on WN
BWI-EWR - 152084 passengers, 274597 seats, 55.38% load factor, PDEW of 31 on WN

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, load factors, and PDEW's for IND-LGA in 2016:
IND-LGA - 116791 passengers, 190235 seats, 61.39% load factor

If WN does get extra slots at LGA, WN re-adding LGA-BWI/IND nonstop service might be possibilities with
(a) WN carrying an average of 503 passengers per day on BWI-LGA/EWR nonstop flights back in 2012, which is enough demand to fill 3 to 4 daily 737-700's per day in each direction,
(b) WN carrying an average of 160 passengers per day on IND-LGA nonstop flights back in 2016, which is enough demand to fill 1 737-800 per day in each direction,
(c) WN having had some O&D traffic on its LGA-BWI/IND routes prior to dropping LGA-BWI/IND nonstop service,
(d) WN being able to offer 1-stop, same-plane service to destinations outside of the LGA perimeter from LGA with a stop at BWI or IND (and vice versa) if WN re-adds LGA-BWI or LGA-IND nonstop service, and
(e) WN would also be able to provide easier access to the NYC market from places such as BHM, BUF, CHS, CLT, CVG, CLE, CMH, DTW, IND, SDF, MKE, ORF, ECP, PNS, PIT, and RDU if it re-adds LGA-BWI nonstop service.

Despite WN only getting a load factor of 61.39% on IND-LGA back in 2016, WN might possibly be able to get better load factors on IND-LGA nonstop service than it did 4 years ago once demand for domestic air travel is back to normal levels as WN can operate 1 daily nonstop on a 737-800 instead of 2 daily nonstops on a 737-700 on the IND-LGA route. WN was also able to make some nonstop routes shorter than IND-LGA work with only 1 daily nonstop in each direction prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

WN adding LGA-ORD nonstop service might be a possibility if WN gets extra slots at LGA with
(a) most of the traffic on WN's LGA-MDW nonstop flights being Chicago to NYC O&D traffic,
(b) WN still having less nonstop service to NYC from MDW than it did prior to WN pulling out of EWR, and
(c) a significant of demand being there between MDW and NYC on WN prior to WN pulling out of EWR.

While WN hasn't yet added LGA-CMH nonstop service, WN had previously said 3 years ago that it was considering serving CMH nonstop from LGA if it could get extra slots at LGA, and WN adding LGA-CMH nonstop service is also a possibility if it gets extra slots at LGA.

WN re-adding Saturday-only LGA-PHX/SAT nonstop service and adding Saturday-only LGA-AUS/OAK/SAN nonstop service might be possibilities with
(a) WN being able to make Saturday-only LGA-PHX/SAT nonstop service work on a seasonal basis in the past,
(b) WN being able to get decent load factors on EWR-AUS/OAK/SAN nonstop service back in 2018,
(c) a significant amount of passengers connecting to destinations outside of the LGA perimeter such as AUS, OAK, PHX, SAT, and SAN prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
(d) WN having a FF base in the AUS, OAK, PHX, SAT, and SAN markets to support Saturday-only LGA-AUS/OAK/PHX/SAT/SAN nonstop service.
 
Jshank83
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 1:46 am

Something that I don't think has been brought up and this could be way out of left field.... But... These recent adds MIA/ORD/IAH and let's say they go back into EWR or start JFK. Pretty major international gateways. Could this be a preempt to Southwest finding a European dance parter?

Might mean nothing but just something to think about.
 
BNAMealer
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:04 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Something that I don't think has been brought up and this could be way out of left field.... But... These recent adds MIA/ORD/IAH and let's say they go back into EWR or start JFK. Pretty major international gateways. Could this be a preempt to Southwest finding a European dance parter?

Might mean nothing but just something to think about.


I was actually just thinking the same thing. Gearing up for codesharing in the post COVID market?
 
WN732
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Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:17 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Something that I don't think has been brought up and this could be way out of left field.... But... These recent adds MIA/ORD/IAH and let's say they go back into EWR or start JFK. Pretty major international gateways. Could this be a preempt to Southwest finding a European dance parter?

Might mean nothing but just something to think about.


They've done it before, and that was the old school non-international Southwest. It would really be something if they did that. And I think they will especially because of JetBlue's across the pond endeavors.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:22 am

JPlatts.. you CANNOT compare 2012 and 2016 numbers in to what is occurring today... the world has changed! Example.... Southwest is starting service to cities almost no one imagined just a year ago.
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
airzona11
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:54 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Something that I don't think has been brought up and this could be way out of left field.... But... These recent adds MIA/ORD/IAH and let's say they go back into EWR or start JFK. Pretty major international gateways. Could this be a preempt to Southwest finding a European dance parter?

Might mean nothing but just something to think about.


Totally agree with that possibility. Changing landscape, new opportunities.
 
Tack
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:13 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:31 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Something that I don't think has been brought up and this could be way out of left field.... But... These recent adds MIA/ORD/IAH and let's say they go back into EWR or start JFK. Pretty major international gateways. Could this be a preempt to Southwest finding a European dance parter?

Might mean nothing but just something to think about.


I’ll bite... who do you think would be a potential partner? I’m going to go out on a limb and say I don’t see a current full service EU alliance airline finding any value in a WN partnership (the operating models are just too different). So who does that leave? I think this might be fun speculation.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:41 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Something that I don't think has been brought up and this could be way out of left field.... But... These recent adds MIA/ORD/IAH and let's say they go back into EWR or start JFK. Pretty major international gateways. Could this be a preempt to Southwest finding a European dance parter?

Might mean nothing but just something to think about.


Here's the thing - if it's a European partner, why would they go for IAH?

IAH European airlines - Air France, British Airways, Lufthansa, KLM

Obviously, each of these are already partnered with one of the US3. Of course, it could be an airline from a completely different region.

In my opinion, Southwest always wanted to return or add these larger airports. COVID-19 allowed them to accelerate these plans and act more aggressively while the legacy carriers are weaker.
 
Jshank83
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:49 am

Tack wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Something that I don't think has been brought up and this could be way out of left field.... But... These recent adds MIA/ORD/IAH and let's say they go back into EWR or start JFK. Pretty major international gateways. Could this be a preempt to Southwest finding a European dance parter?

Might mean nothing but just something to think about.


I’ll bite... who do you think would be a potential partner? I’m going to go out on a limb and say I don’t see a current full service EU alliance airline finding any value in a WN partnership (the operating models are just too different). So who does that leave? I think this might be fun speculation.


I’ve always personally thought Norwegian is the best fit. Already were in some bigger WN cities (although they just pulled their decent sized operation out of OAK for SFO), 787 was a good plane to make it to all WNs larger stations, and they fly to cities all over Europe, not just one country. That all said I know they aren’t in best financial straights now. Maybe they gives WN a chance to buy into it? But I don’t know all the laws on how that would work with an overseas carrier.

Other options. Eurowings, Condor (I think is still alive a little bit), Icelandair (in theory but I can’t actually see it)

Wild Card: WN ponies up for some 787s while planes are cheap and does it themselves.

I don’t know if I would call any of these likely but going into IAH/ORD especially just make me wonder if they are setting up for something. 2 major WN cities that if you were going to Europe you would want to have options from. Although I don’t actually know the rules from Hobby, maybe you could fly from there to Europe?

Anyway. We will see. Just something that I wondered about.

Then there is obviously the is this when they finally make a play for Canada also? (although they don’t need to add the new airports for that) Lots of speculation with little substance obviously.
 
Tack
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:53 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Tack wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Something that I don't think has been brought up and this could be way out of left field.... But... These recent adds MIA/ORD/IAH and let's say they go back into EWR or start JFK. Pretty major international gateways. Could this be a preempt to Southwest finding a European dance parter?

Might mean nothing but just something to think about.


I’ll bite... who do you think would be a potential partner? I’m going to go out on a limb and say I don’t see a current full service EU alliance airline finding any value in a WN partnership (the operating models are just too different). So who does that leave? I think this might be fun speculation.


I’ve always personally thought Norwegian is the best fit. Already were in some bigger WN cities (although they just pulled their decent sized operation out of OAK for SFO), 787 was a good plane to make it to all WNs larger stations, and they fly to cities all over Europe, not just one country. That all said I know they aren’t in best financial straights now. Maybe they gives WN a chance to buy into it? But I don’t know all the laws on how that would work with an overseas carrier.

Other options. Eurowings, Condor (I think is still alive a little bit), Icelandair (in theory but I can’t actually see it)

Wild Card: WN ponies up for some 787s while planes are cheap and does it themselves.

I don’t know if I would call any of these likely but going into IAH/ORD especially just make me wonder if they are setting up for something. 2 major WN cities that if you were going to Europe you would want to have options from. Although I don’t actually know the rules from Hobby, maybe you could fly from there to Europe?

Anyway. We will see. Just something that I wondered about.

Then there is obviously the is this when they finally make a play for Canada also? (although they don’t need to add the new airports for that) Lots of speculation with little substance obviously.



Speculation without substance are some of the more fun threads. I like the Condor idea. I think maybe a nice code share could be had with FR if they try some TATL. Before I retired, I always enjoyed the rumors. The wilder ones were the most fun.
 
tphuang
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:06 am

Southwest would need to figure out how to do red eye transcon before trying Europe

If anything, it has cut transcons or near transcons flights in favor of routing through middle of the country hubs.

That doesn’t seem like precursor to 8 hour flights.
 
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southwest1675
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:45 pm

When I last visited the WN HQ in January 2019, one of the Senior VPs was hinting about the MAX flying across the pond....
Herb Kelleher 1931-2019
 
Judge1310
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:07 pm

tphuang wrote:
Southwest would need to figure out how to do red eye transcon before trying Europe

If anything, it has cut transcons or near transcons flights in favor of routing through middle of the country hubs.

That doesn’t seem like precursor to 8 hour flights.


This! Until they can manage to effectively handle a domestic trans-con red-eye flight, there's no way they'd be able to work a transatlantic operation. Also, the rules of the game are somewhat different with respect to EASA -- WN would have to somehow flexibly adapt their policies and procedures to fall in line with what EASA requirements dictate.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:12 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-08/southwest-air-to-aggressively-add-new-cities-amid-travel-slump

I'd imagine SAV, MYR, JAC, FAT, & BZN are in the cards.


XNA, you can not tell there is economic pain In XNA land and folks are reaching don't give a #$%@ stage.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:15 pm

WN732 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
I've read this Quote from GK on several different sights .
"These first destinations are just the beginning; we are looking at more places to put People and planes to work—as quickly as we can.
It’s exciting to take the fight to the competition, and put idle aircraft and overstaffed Employees to work. This is an opportunity to generate more revenue with minimal additional costs.

And fortunately, our route map still has dozens of new airport opportunities for growth with 737s. We’ll pursue these opportunities aggressively, but not recklessly. In every case, they must meet our cash flow threshold and contribute to our recovery."

GK taking a page and lesson from his mentor HERB. Who always believed a IDLE aircraft sitting around cost you more money than one being used to produce additional revenue.

I think Spring 2021 is gonna be the biggest organic growth in WN History.

Flyguy


Fresno better get in there.


I will be curious to see whether WN changes their tune when it comes to dedicated gate space. While I haven't seen any direct confirmation about this, multiple rumors (as well as WN gate situations at most of their domestic airports) supports their desire for dedicated (not shared) gates. FAT has been adamant about sharing gates between carriers (not having any dedicated gates, even though, in practice, most gates at FAT are dedicated right now), and I wonder how much that has played and will play into WN choosing to serve FAT. The new concourse and FIS gates aren't scheduled to open for at least two years, and there will only be two of them. If we assume those gates will be used for Y4 and AM, as well as F9 and G4 during the day, and we give one jetway each to DL (11) and UA (15 - plus lower gates 5 & 7), two jetways to AS (8 & 12) and two to AA (14 & 16), that only leaves one dedicated WN gate (17), assuming they don't want to use air stairs (and why should they), and that's after construction is complete. Enough?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2020

Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:09 pm

More flights added back to November this week, for example I noticed BNA was up 12% for the day I checked compared to the original schedule.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
Ishrion
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Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:32 am

Southwest has announced plans to add flights to Colorado Springs (COS), Savannah (SAV), and return to Jackson, Mississippi (JAN)

Today we announce our intention to add service in first half 2021 to Colorado Springs Municipal Airport, Savannah/Hilton Head International Airport in Georgia, and a return to Jackson-Medgar Wiley Evers International Airport in Mississippi. We are leveraging additional airports in cornerstone cities where our Customer base is large, along with adding easier access to popular leisure-oriented destinations from across our domestic-focused network. We entered this crisis with the U.S. airline industry's strongest balance sheet and most successful business model. These additional service points on our map are low-risk opportunities we can provide Customers now, all the while better positioning Southwest as travel demand rebounds."


This follows Southwest's recent additions of MIA, PSP, HDN, MTJ, ORD, and IAH.

https://www.swamedia.com/releases/relea ... 20-results
 
panam330
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Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:44 am

COS is a nifty, but great, addition to their expanding Colorado market. Wonder if they’ll choose to serve DEN-COS.
The return to JAN is bizarre; if they couldn’t make it work in much better times, what’s changed their minds? Subsidies, perhaps?
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:44 am

Now that is interesting, based on the quote "Leveraging additional airports in cornerstone cities where our customer base is large" I assume the following where they can connect the remaining network via these cities. Similar to what we've seen at PSP, MTJ & HDN

COS-DEN/PHX/DAL
SAV-ATL/DAL/BWI
JAN-ATL/DAL/HOU
 
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enilria
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Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:52 am

panam330 wrote:
COS is a nifty, but great, addition to their expanding Colorado market. Wonder if they’ll choose to serve DEN-COS.
The return to JAN is bizarre; if they couldn’t make it work in much better times, what’s changed their minds? Subsidies, perhaps?

Agreed on JAN. I assumed it was Jackson Hole.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:01 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
SAV-ATL/DAL/BWI


I'll say BWI and MDW on Savannah. ATL for WN lacks frequency and connectivity to compete with DL. I don't think there's much of a market to Savannah from Dallas. We'll see.
 
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enilria
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Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:05 pm

They just said they were grabbing hard to get real estate during the pandemic lol
 
tphuang
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Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:09 pm

enilria wrote:
They just said they were grabbing hard to get real estate during the pandemic lol


I'm kind of confused where are the hard to grab real estate they are getting? Doesn't look like they are getting additional slots at LGA/DCA as of now. They are not moving back into EWR and have not done much at SFO/LAX. Are they just talking about getting into ORD?
 
bpat777
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Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:15 pm

tphuang wrote:
enilria wrote:
They just said they were grabbing hard to get real estate during the pandemic lol


I'm kind of confused where are the hard to grab real estate they are getting? Doesn't look like they are getting additional slots at LGA/DCA as of now. They are not moving back into EWR and have not done much at SFO/LAX. Are they just talking about getting into ORD?

You can't say for sure they won't be back to EWR. Maybe that's what you're hoping but it isn't an actual fact.
 
tphuang
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Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:26 pm

bpat777 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
enilria wrote:
They just said they were grabbing hard to get real estate during the pandemic lol


I'm kind of confused where are the hard to grab real estate they are getting? Doesn't look like they are getting additional slots at LGA/DCA as of now. They are not moving back into EWR and have not done much at SFO/LAX. Are they just talking about getting into ORD?

You can't say for sure they won't be back to EWR. Maybe that's what you're hoping but it isn't an actual fact.


The fact is they haven't made a move on that front as of now. If they actually get back into EWR, then that's a different story.

Maybe what you should take out of my comment is that WN is possibly making bids at LGA/DCA slots. To me, that's what grabbing hard to get real estate means.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Announces Colorado Springs, Savannah, and Jackson

Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
SAV-ATL/DAL/BWI


I'll say BWI and MDW on Savannah. ATL for WN lacks frequency and connectivity to compete with DL. I don't think there's much of a market to Savannah from Dallas. We'll see.


I agree that WN adding SAV-BWI/MDW are possibilities, especially with BWI and MDW being two of the largest WN stations, with WN already serving almost all of its Southeastern U.S. destinations nonstop from BWI, and with WN already serving the majority of its contiguous U.S. leisure destinations nonstop from MDW.

WN adding weekend-only nonstop service to SAV from DAL might be a possibility, similar to what WN did on its recent DAL-HDN/MTJ adds.

WN adding SAV-BNA is also a possibility with WN already having nonstop service out of BNA to most of its other leisure destinations in the Southeastern U.S.

In addition to SAV-ATL/BWI/MDW/DAL/BNA, WN adding SAV-DEN/HOU/STL nonstop service might also be possibilities with DEN, HOU, and STL being three of the top markets traveled to from SAV.

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