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metalinyoni
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Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:11 am

Seemingly the South African government has finally pulled the plug on SAA. Sad days but very necessary I think.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ment-owner
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PM
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Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:50 am

metalinyoni wrote:
Seemingly the South African government has finally pulled the plug on SAA. Sad days but very necessary I think.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ment-owner

Their luck ran out. But for Corona, they might have made it. They won't be the last airline to go under. Sad.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:52 pm

PM wrote:
metalinyoni wrote:
Seemingly the South African government has finally pulled the plug on SAA. Sad days but very necessary I think.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ment-owner

Their luck ran out. But for Corona, they might have made it. They won't be the last airline to go under. Sad.


I'm puzzled. After years and years of corruption, half hearted measures, all with government support, since a few months SAA is finally on its way towards becoming a healthy airline again. Now, with COVID-19, something they really couldn't help or foresee, government isn't going to help any more. While I don't know how many airlines in the world are getting help from their governments to survive COVID-19, SA government is doing the opposite.

SA government should have pulled the plug when SAA was going down into the corruption and mismanagement path, not now when they are pulling themselves out of it :banghead:
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dredgy
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Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:09 pm

frigatebird wrote:
PM wrote:
metalinyoni wrote:
Seemingly the South African government has finally pulled the plug on SAA. Sad days but very necessary I think.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ment-owner

Their luck ran out. But for Corona, they might have made it. They won't be the last airline to go under. Sad.


I'm puzzled. After years and years of corruption, half hearted measures, all with government support, since a few months SAA is finally on its way towards becoming a healthy airline again. Now, with COVID-19, something they really couldn't help or foresee, government isn't going to help any more. While I don't know how many airlines in the world are getting help from their governments to survive COVID-19, SA government is doing the opposite.

SA government should have pulled the plug when SAA was going down into the corruption and mismanagement path, not now when they are pulling themselves out of it :banghead:


I don't think they were really on the right path. The A350s were just a stupid way of burning cash, and they were still reliant on government support. This is a convenient excuse for the government to pull funding.I flew them very recently in business class, and based on product I hope they survive, and I think a reincarnation might be necessary for that.
 
seat64k
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:04 pm

frigatebird wrote:
I'm puzzled. After years and years of corruption, half hearted measures, all with government support, since a few months SAA is finally on its way towards becoming a healthy airline again. Now, with COVID-19, something they really couldn't help or foresee, government isn't going to help any more. While I don't know how many airlines in the world are getting help from their governments to survive COVID-19, SA government is doing the opposite.

SA government should have pulled the plug when SAA was going down into the corruption and mismanagement path, not now when they are pulling themselves out of it :banghead:


It's a bit more complicated - it's not simply a matter of "the government" and "the airline" - you need to know a bit about the politics. This is a very loos summery, and definitely takes some artistic license. The governing party, the ANC, has an outright majority. They are a coalition between three groups: The liberation movement (what was the ANC before 1994), the communist party, and COSATU, an umbrella organisation of trade unions. What. Could. Go. Wrong. Even within the liberation movement, economic persuasions are varied, but suffice to say it's broadly socialist but by some miracle the first ANC president, Nelson Mandela, had come around to broadly liberal/free market view and appointed a vice president, finance minister and reserve bank governeror to match.

Mandela moved on, VP Mbeki continued along the same path. But factions in the ANC was unhappy with this and somehow got rid of him. That resulted in an innumerate [1] and corrupt but hugely popular moron being president for the next 9 years, who installed inept and corrupt cadres into all spheres of government. Key three to this story: A finance minister who is a communist with a trade union background, Dudu Myeni who ran the airline, and someone equally inept and corrupt to run the internal revenue service. The result of this was spectacular mismanagement of the fiscus, a public sector wage bill that is now at 1/3rd of GDP, almost half the population receiving some form of social grant, 5 million out of 55 million population actually paying any tax and a power uitility that hasn't done any maintenance on anything in a decade and now can't sustain power delivery, resulting in rolling blackouts. (google "zuptas" This was the state of things when the current president took over.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi1nSJZMcLg

The ANC, aside from being an absurdly corrupt and dysfunctional organisation, is, first and foremost, a patronage network. "Struggle credentials" is valued over everything else, and they would sooner pour tax money down the drain [2] than throw one of their comrades under the bus. And this is why Dudu Mnyeni was kept on, billions pumped into a grossly mismanaged public enterprise. President dum dum's finance minister, who presided over a slide from budget surpluses to near bankruptcy, is now in charge of public enterprises. Being the union man that he is, he will never say no to the unions - this is how, as SAA was about to fold and announced well-overdue staff cuts, the unions managed to get rid of the layoffs and get a 8.5% pay rise across the board. It's too easy.

[2] The drain being the pockets of various rent seekers like the Gupta family.

The new finance minister (the excellent former reserve bank governor) had been warning for a while. It's ultimately up to the

dredgy wrote:
I don't think they were really on the right path. The A350s were just a stupid way of burning cash, and they were still reliant on government support. This is a convenient excuse for the government to pull funding.I flew them very recently in business class, and based on product I hope they survive, and I think a reincarnation might be necessary for that.


The A350s are leased, and they're drastically cheaper to operate than the A340s they replace. This has been discussed before on the forum with someon (presumably an SAA pilot?) contributing fuel figures.
 
mr02
Posts: 190
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Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:46 pm

seat64k wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
I'm puzzled. After years and years of corruption, half hearted measures, all with government support, since a few months SAA is finally on its way towards becoming a healthy airline again. Now, with COVID-19, something they really couldn't help or foresee, government isn't going to help any more. While I don't know how many airlines in the world are getting help from their governments to survive COVID-19, SA government is doing the opposite.

SA government should have pulled the plug when SAA was going down into the corruption and mismanagement path, not now when they are pulling themselves out of it :banghead:


It's a bit more complicated - it's not simply a matter of "the government" and "the airline" - you need to know a bit about the politics. This is a very loos summery, and definitely takes some artistic license. The governing party, the ANC, has an outright majority. They are a coalition between three groups: The liberation movement (what was the ANC before 1994), the communist party, and COSATU, an umbrella organisation of trade unions. What. Could. Go. Wrong. Even within the liberation movement, economic persuasions are varied, but suffice to say it's broadly socialist but by some miracle the first ANC president, Nelson Mandela, had come around to broadly liberal/free market view and appointed a vice president, finance minister and reserve bank governeror to match.

Mandela moved on, VP Mbeki continued along the same path. But factions in the ANC was unhappy with this and somehow got rid of him. That resulted in an innumerate [1] and corrupt but hugely popular moron being president for the next 9 years, who installed inept and corrupt cadres into all spheres of government. Key three to this story: A finance minister who is a communist with a trade union background, Dudu Myeni who ran the airline, and someone equally inept and corrupt to run the internal revenue service. The result of this was spectacular mismanagement of the fiscus, a public sector wage bill that is now at 1/3rd of GDP, almost half the population receiving some form of social grant, 5 million out of 55 million population actually paying any tax and a power uitility that hasn't done any maintenance on anything in a decade and now can't sustain power delivery, resulting in rolling blackouts. (google "zuptas" This was the state of things when the current president took over.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi1nSJZMcLg

The ANC, aside from being an absurdly corrupt and dysfunctional organisation, is, first and foremost, a patronage network. "Struggle credentials" is valued over everything else, and they would sooner pour tax money down the drain [2] than throw one of their comrades under the bus. And this is why Dudu Mnyeni was kept on, billions pumped into a grossly mismanaged public enterprise. President dum dum's finance minister, who presided over a slide from budget surpluses to near bankruptcy, is now in charge of public enterprises. Being the union man that he is, he will never say no to the unions - this is how, as SAA was about to fold and announced well-overdue staff cuts, the unions managed to get rid of the layoffs and get a 8.5% pay rise across the board. It's too easy.

[2] The drain being the pockets of various rent seekers like the Gupta family.

The new finance minister (the excellent former reserve bank governor) had been warning for a while. It's ultimately up to the

dredgy wrote:
I don't think they were really on the right path. The A350s were just a stupid way of burning cash, and they were still reliant on government support. This is a convenient excuse for the government to pull funding.I flew them very recently in business class, and based on product I hope they survive, and I think a reincarnation might be necessary for that.


The A350s are leased, and they're drastically cheaper to operate than the A340s they replace. This has been discussed before on the forum with someon (presumably an SAA pilot?) contributing fuel figures.

I cannot remember whether I read it in a book or news article but it stated that Nelson Mandela and especially Thabo Mbeki weren't very popular among the tripartite because of their policies. I think Mbeki was hated partly due to wanting to privatise Eskom and the unions knew eskom with their thousands of employees was a cash cow. When dumb dumb came into power,he basically strengthened the unions power in the labour force and in the ANC in general-which why he was able to survive every motion of no confidence within the ANC and in Parliament. Sound accurate enough?
 
Williamsb747
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:22 pm

SAA is almost finally done with a new airline to form in its place.
I don’t know about the rest of you but I’m sad to see one of my favourite airlines leave the skies.

https://simpleflying.com/south-africa-n ... carrier-2/

https://amp.thesouthafrican.com/news/wh ... placement/
B747>A340>A350>B777>MD11>B767>B757>MD88/90>B787>A380>A330>A220>A320>B737.
CPT JNB
 
seat64k
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Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 4:37 am

mr02 wrote:
I cannot remember whether I read it in a book or news article but it stated that Nelson Mandela and especially Thabo Mbeki weren't very popular among the tripartite because of their policies.


It's not just the fact of their policies. As I understand Mandela and Mbeki went against previously agreed ANC concensus, and they did it very publicly in Davos in 1992. I don't know much of the details or how much is know about what conversations might have been going on behind the scenes, but I imagine there were probably enough sane voices (people like Tito Mboweni and Lesetja Kganyago) that Mandel felt he could get enough of the fence sitters in line.

mr02 wrote:
I think Mbeki was hated partly due to wanting to privatise Eskom and the unions knew eskom with their thousands of employees was a cash cow. When dumb dumb came into power,he basically strengthened the unions power in the labour force and in the ANC in general-which why he was able to survive every motion of no confidence within the ANC and in Parliament. Sound accurate enough?


Ths is an apt demonstration of why trade/labour unions should be treated as a necessary evil. The line between a labour union and a protection racket becomes very blurry very quickly once they have enough power, and it gets much worse and does irriversible damage when politicians exploit union power to gain political power (similar story in Argentina, it seems).
 
mr02
Posts: 190
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Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 2:22 pm

seat64k wrote:
mr02 wrote:
I cannot remember whether I read it in a book or news article but it stated that Nelson Mandela and especially Thabo Mbeki weren't very popular among the tripartite because of their policies.


It's not just the fact of their policies. As I understand Mandela and Mbeki went against previously agreed ANC concensus, and they did it very publicly in Davos in 1992. I don't know much of the details or how much is know about what conversations might have been going on behind the scenes, but I imagine there were probably enough sane voices (people like Tito Mboweni and Lesetja Kganyago) that Mandel felt he could get enough of the fence sitters in line.

mr02 wrote:
I think Mbeki was hated partly due to wanting to privatise Eskom and the unions knew eskom with their thousands of employees was a cash cow. When dumb dumb came into power,he basically strengthened the unions power in the labour force and in the ANC in general-which why he was able to survive every motion of no confidence within the ANC and in Parliament. Sound accurate enough?


Ths is an apt demonstration of why trade/labour unions should be treated as a necessary evil. The line between a labour union and a protection racket becomes very blurry very quickly once they have enough power, and it gets much worse and does irriversible damage when politicians exploit union power to gain political power (similar story in Argentina, it seems).

Even though I support worker's rights,and the unionization of workers (optional)-our unions are of another breed. It gets evident every year that they just in it for themselves and not for workers. I think we need to teach South Africans that unionization can be disadvantageous, but that would have to start at school.
 
mr02
Posts: 190
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:51 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 2:27 pm

What aircraft do you guys think the "new" saa will use after it gets back? There will be a lot of cheap 2nd hand A350,787s and new stored A350,787. BTW,why doesn't SAA consider the 787 as an aircraft to use.
 
SQ317
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Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:16 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon May 04, 2020 9:36 pm

mr02 wrote:
What aircraft do you guys think the "new" saa will use after it gets back? There will be a lot of cheap 2nd hand A350,787s and new stored A350,787. BTW,why doesn't SAA consider the 787 as an aircraft to use.


I could be wrong, but I'm not sure the B789 has the takeoff performance they require from JNB on some of the very long routes they operate (eg JFK). Whether that will be important for the new SAA is another matter
 
Williamsb747
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 4:26 am

mr02 wrote:
What aircraft do you guys think the "new" saa will use after it gets back? There will be a lot of cheap 2nd hand A350,787s and new stored A350,787. BTW,why doesn't SAA consider the 787 as an aircraft to use.


(Ex) SAA's pilots are well trained on the A340 and it is easier to convert those licences to A350s, plus I'm not sure the B787 can handle high and hot performance that is required for long haul flights from JNB (correct me if I'm wrong).
B747>A340>A350>B777>MD11>B767>B757>MD88/90>B787>A380>A330>A220>A320>B737.
CPT JNB
 
mr02
Posts: 190
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Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 7:24 am

SQ317 wrote:
mr02 wrote:
What aircraft do you guys think the "new" saa will use after it gets back? There will be a lot of cheap 2nd hand A350,787s and new stored A350,787. BTW,why doesn't SAA consider the 787 as an aircraft to use.


I could be wrong, but I'm not sure the B789 has the takeoff performance they require from JNB on some of the very long routes they operate (eg JFK). Whether that will be important for the new SAA is another matter

Yeah doesn't ADD have a higher elevation than JNB? ET flies to the far east with the 787 if I can remember correctly;although with stop over. Why can't SAA do the same?
 
seat64k
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 7:25 am

mr02 wrote:
Even though I support worker's rights,and the unionization of workers (optional)-our unions are of another breed. It gets evident every year that they just in it for themselves and not for workers. I think we need to teach South Africans that unionization can be disadvantageous, but that would have to start at school.


Unsure if your "our" is South Africa or Argentina? But yeah, I wasn't implying that unions are not necessary. They are, at least (in my opinion) in limited cirucumstances - where the state is the employer, or where there is a limited market in the particular sector. But it makes a mockery of the employer/union relationship when the employer is also the union. No wonder fully half of the income tax payers in SA are goverment emplyees, i.e. their salaries are paid from the tax the other half pays...
 
SQ317
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:16 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 10:41 am

mr02 wrote:
SQ317 wrote:
mr02 wrote:
What aircraft do you guys think the "new" saa will use after it gets back? There will be a lot of cheap 2nd hand A350,787s and new stored A350,787. BTW,why doesn't SAA consider the 787 as an aircraft to use.


I could be wrong, but I'm not sure the B789 has the takeoff performance they require from JNB on some of the very long routes they operate (eg JFK). Whether that will be important for the new SAA is another matter

Yeah doesn't ADD have a higher elevation than JNB? ET flies to the far east with the 787 if I can remember correctly;although with stop over. Why can't SAA do the same?


Bear in mind ADD-Far East is much shorter distances, around the 5000 miles mark give or take. Again I could have remembered incorrectly - the B789 is clearly fine for longer routes like LHR-JNB (Virgin Atlantic) but N.American destinations are that much further
 
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PM
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue May 05, 2020 3:17 pm

Air Namibia will be resuming domestic flights from 13th May.

https://www.namibian.com.na/90772/read/ ... ic-flights
 
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eastafspot
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Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:22 am

PM wrote:
Air Namibia will be resuming domestic flights from 13th May.


Does the end is near for Air Namibia?
Recent news suggest this option...
Fly with Air Burundi, Air Tanzania, Golden Wings Aviation, Kenya Airways, RwandAir and Uganda Airlines...Jumuiya ya Afrika mashariki !
 
Breathe
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:56 pm

Air Mauritius has put 5 aircraft up for sale:

2 x A340-300s (MSNs 194 and 268)
1 x A330-200 (MSN 1057)
2 x A319s (MSNs 1592 and 1936)

https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/air ... 03.article
 
KingOrGod
Posts: 154
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:36 pm

mr02 wrote:
seat64k wrote:
mr02 wrote:
but that would have to start at school.


They skipped the basics like counting to ten, what makes you think they'll grasp such concepts?
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:45 am

SAA A359 ZS-SDD (one of the Hainan frames, MSN 245) is currently on its way to Teruel.

SAA A332 ZS-SXU (MSN 1271) is also on its way to Teruel.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
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PM
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Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:16 am

eastafspot wrote:
PM wrote:
Air Namibia will be resuming domestic flights from 13th May.


Does the end is near for Air Namibia?
Recent news suggest this option...

I've been travelling in the desert without access to news for a few days. I return home to find this.

https://www.namibian.com.na/92665/read/ ... mibia-woes
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5261
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:53 pm

More on Air Namibia

The Confidente is a weekly investigative newspaper in Namibia. This week's issue leads with Air Namibia and the Frankfurt route.

https://www.confidentenamibia.com/pages/article/2251

Air Namibia operates two A330-200s on lease from Intrepid. The only route they fly (or used to) is WDH-FRA. Each plane spends most of its time sitting on the tarmac in Namibia or Germany.

Among the claims in the article:

• The leases for the two A330s (delivered new in September and November 2013) were for twelve (12) years – unusually long.
• The leases were for US$785,000 per aircraft, per month.
• IATA advised against the deal, recommending the lease of second-hand A330s at US$450,000 a month.
• US$9,000,000 was budgeted for Buyer Furnished Equipment. In fact, US$18,000,000 was paid. [Note: I’ve flown on both planes. There’s nothing special about the interiors of either.]
• Deloitte conducted a ‘forensic investigation’ into “various alleged irregularities at [the airline]” in 2014 but it was “quietly swept under the carpet”.
• The Frankfurt route contributes 80% of Air Namibia’s loss.

The Namibian government is currently contemplating the liquidation of Air Namibia. However, they would then have to assume the liabilities of the airline including the Intrepid A330 leases that will run till late 2025.
 
seat64k
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:53 am

PM wrote:
Among the claims in the article:

• The leases for the two A330s (delivered new in September and November 2013) were for twelve (12) years – unusually long.
• The leases were for US$785,000 per aircraft, per month.
• IATA advised against the deal, recommending the lease of second-hand A330s at US$450,000 a month.
• US$9,000,000 was budgeted for Buyer Furnished Equipment. In fact, US$18,000,000 was paid. [Note: I’ve flown on both planes. There’s nothing special about the interiors of either.]
• Deloitte conducted a ‘forensic investigation’ into “various alleged irregularities at [the airline]” in 2014 but it was “quietly swept under the carpet”.
• The Frankfurt route contributes 80% of Air Namibia’s loss.


It's almost like Namibia is a province of South Africa...
 
sixfootscream
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:35 am

seat64k wrote:
PM wrote:
It's almost like Namibia is a province of South Africa...


They did belong to us once...
 
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PM
Posts: 5261
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:45 pm

sixfootscream wrote:
seat64k wrote:
PM wrote:
It's almost like Namibia is a province of South Africa...


They did belong to us once...

Actually, that's not quite true. It never actually "belonged" to South Africa. It was administered by S.A. - legally at first and later in defiance of the UN.
 
evanb
Posts: 908
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:44 pm

PM wrote:
sixfootscream wrote:
seat64k wrote:


They did belong to us once...

Actually, that's not quite true. It never actually "belonged" to South Africa. It was administered by S.A. - legally at first and later in defiance of the UN.


Indeed, Namibia never belonged to South Africa, it was administered by South Africa from 1915 under the Treaty of Versailles. Prior to the war it was a German colony and during WW1 it that was invaded and occupied by South Africa on behalf of the Allied Powers. Following WWII it was to become a United Nations Trust Territory and transitioned to independence, but South Africa objected and instead de facto annexed it and made it the fifth province South Africa and giving it representation in Parliament. However, no other countries recognized this, de jure or de facto, and in 1961, the International Court of Justice ostensibly declared the de facto annexation illegal. However, it took until 1990 for Namibia to finally gain independence.
 
mr02
Posts: 190
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:51 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:42 pm

evanb wrote:
PM wrote:
sixfootscream wrote:

They did belong to us once...

Actually, that's not quite true. It never actually "belonged" to South Africa. It was administered by S.A. - legally at first and later in defiance of the UN.


Indeed, Namibia never belonged to South Africa, it was administered by South Africa from 1915 under the Treaty of Versailles. Prior to the war it was a German colony and during WW1 it that was invaded and occupied by South Africa on behalf of the Allied Powers. Following WWII it was to become a United Nations Trust Territory and transitioned to independence, but South Africa objected and instead de facto annexed it and made it the fifth province South Africa and giving it representation in Parliament. However, no other countries recognized this, de jure or de facto, and in 1961, the International Court of Justice ostensibly declared the de facto annexation illegal. However, it took until 1990 for Namibia to finally gain independence.

Wasn't Walvis Baai a province of SA? If it was,why did we give it away?
 
User avatar
PM
Posts: 5261
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:05 pm

Re: Southern African & Indian Ocean Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:49 pm

mr02 wrote:
evanb wrote:
PM wrote:
Actually, that's not quite true. It never actually "belonged" to South Africa. It was administered by S.A. - legally at first and later in defiance of the UN.


Indeed, Namibia never belonged to South Africa, it was administered by South Africa from 1915 under the Treaty of Versailles. Prior to the war it was a German colony and during WW1 it that was invaded and occupied by South Africa on behalf of the Allied Powers. Following WWII it was to become a United Nations Trust Territory and transitioned to independence, but South Africa objected and instead de facto annexed it and made it the fifth province South Africa and giving it representation in Parliament. However, no other countries recognized this, de jure or de facto, and in 1961, the International Court of Justice ostensibly declared the de facto annexation illegal. However, it took until 1990 for Namibia to finally gain independence.

Wasn't Walvis Baai a province of SA? If it was,why did we give it away?

What is now Namibia was for a while a German colony but Walvis Bay was part of the Cape Colony and so became part of South Africa. But the settlement at the end of WW1 required that any final settlement regarding the future of South-West Africa would include Walvis Bay. S.A. was not keen and, in any case, came to claim the whole of South-West Africa. (See evanb's summary above.) Namibia gained independence in 1990 but Walvis Bay remained part of S.A. But it was never really viable and S.A. transferred Walvis Bay to Namibia in 1994.

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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos