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N292UX
Topic Author
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Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:52 pm

Welcome to the Cleveland Aviation Thread 2020.

Continue from the 2019 Thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411867&hilit=Cleveland
 
avtcle
Posts: 289
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:16 pm

Here’s my predictions for CLE for 2020:

-2 or 3 new summer routes from Frontier (PNS, JAX, PDX), 1 or 2 new winter routes (SJU, MBJ)
-Between Delta, United, American, not much of anything.
-Aer Lingus announcement in the fall? We can only hope. They said new TATL routes were delayed until 2021 due to A321LR delivery delays.
-Spirit and Allegiant likely to maintain their same level of service.
-10.3 million passengers
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:00 am

In the spirit of 2020, here’s an overview of what CLE has seen through 2019:

Frontier: launched flights to CHS, PUJ, SFO, dropped flight to PDX.
Allegiant: New flights to SRQ, ORF, CHS, BNA
United: New flight to TPA, dropped flight to CUN
Delta: Dropped flight to MCO
Icelandair: Dropped flight to KEF

Here’s what’s ahead for 2020:

Spirit: New flight to CUN
Sun Country: New flight to MSP
Hopefully much more!
 
ncflyer
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:50 pm

Some predictions are a little too easy:

Continued silence from Mayor's office and the business community on Hopkins modernization (meantime CBS Sunday Morning had a wonderful report on how US airports are finally modernizing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Oej5me-II.) To the extent there are any leaks or early announcements from the Master Facility Planning process, they get no traction whatsoever.
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:21 pm

avtcle wrote:
Here’s what’s ahead for 2020:
Spirit: New flight to CUN
Hopefully much more!


NK adding CLE-IAH nonstop service might be a possibility with (a) NK having a significant presence in Houston and (b) UA currently being the only airline serving the Houston market nonstop from CLE.
 
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CLEguy
Posts: 280
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:48 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Some predictions are a little too easy:

Continued silence from Mayor's office and the business community on Hopkins modernization (meantime CBS Sunday Morning had a wonderful report on how US airports are finally modernizing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Oej5me-II.) To the extent there are any leaks or early announcements from the Master Facility Planning process, they get no traction whatsoever.


Happy New Year!

Even if CLE were known for timely, open and transparent communication, which of course, it is not, I wouldn't expect any real information about the new master plan in 2020 while it is still under development. I would hope they seek public feedback at some point during the process.

As for other predictions for 2020, I really have none based on reality, and have rather low expectations (maybe continued slow traffic growth, unless there is a business slow-down or recession). A new transatlantic add would be great, though, I'm not holding my breath.
 
SgtBarone
Posts: 246
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:22 pm

Not really sure where this is located, but it looks like CLE now has a sock vending machine from a company called Stance (https://www.stance.com/). I'll have to look for this in a couple weeks when I fly to Nashville:

https://twitter.com/FraportUSA/status/1 ... 7371286528
AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAS LAX LGB MAD MCI MCO MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
 
ncflyer
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:05 pm

Unfortunately I share CLEguys view, too many years as a pessimistic Browns fan I guess. It’s a killer that AS is doubling seasonally in PIT and CMH before adding CLE, I’m noticing that F9 isn’t using the A321 on quite as many flights this winter, and it seems that CLE is first station trimmed in the Great Lakes/Ohio Valley region due to max challenges at AA and WN. Growth may be tough.
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:41 pm

F9 doesn’t have as many A321s flying in for the winter because frequencies on most of their routes were increased this winter. LAS went 10x weekly, MCO up to 2-3x daily, TPA, RSW up to 2x daily, SRQ up to 3x weekly, additions of FLL & MIA. Overall seats for Frontier DEC-APR will be up 60% this winter compared to last.

Heading into summer from Frontier CLE is in MUCH better shape than other F9 stations. Heading into summer, Frontier is cutting 6 destinations at CVG, 6 destinations at RDU and 4 destinations at AUS. CVG also got deep frequency cuts — none of their F9 routes expect DEN will be daily come summer. That makes CLE Frontier’s largest station between CVG, RDU, AUS. Shows the resiliency of our market compared to others.

PIT passenger numbers will be down anywhere from 2-3% for 2019, CVG, CMH growth has cooled within being up 2-3%, so CLE clearly looks to be in very good shape. PAX will be up around 4.5% for 2019.

WN hasn’t trimmed at Cleveland much. The only cut that has lasted was the reduction of LAS to weekend only — a cut that F9 and Spirit quickly filled. WN also said CLE-PHX would go weekend only in January and it never did. It’s still daily. No other routes from WN out of CLE have seen much change.

As for AA, I doubt losing 2 E140s per day to JFK and a few 737s to DFW is really going to have an impact. People fly when they need to fly, and if they can’t get AA flights to DFW or JFK direct, they’ll connect or take another airline. (Spirit, Southwest fly from Cleveland to Dallas, Delta flies from Cleveland to New York JFK)

Unless there is an economic downturn, there really isn’t any material reason Cleveland growth will stop this year. Keep it on the bright side! We already have 2 new flights locked in this year (NK to CUN, SY to MSP), and holiday week is always slow for air service announcements. We should be heading from Frontier within the next 2 weeks about summer routes, which always includes CLE. Last year they announced CLE summer routes on January 16th.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:30 am

Ok good data avtcle I’ll gladly be wrong. PHX has been an A320 so far this year down from a A321 but your point on Florida is a good one. F9 Serving all three southeast Florida airports is terrific, even with very heavy competition especially to FLL.
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:50 am

avtcle wrote:
Heading into summer from Frontier CLE is in MUCH better shape than other F9 stations. Heading into summer, Frontier is cutting 6 destinations at CVG, 6 destinations at RDU and 4 destinations at AUS. CVG also got deep frequency cuts — none of their F9 routes expect DEN will be daily come summer. That makes CLE Frontier’s largest station between CVG, RDU, AUS. Shows the resiliency of our market compared to others.


F9 will still be operating daily nonstop service to LAS out of CVG in addition to DEN in Summer 2020.

Here is a link to a summary of the F9 changes out of CVG in Summer 2020:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411841&start=750#p21878607

In addition to the 6 already discontinued F9 nonstop routes out of CVG that will not be resuming in Summer 2020, F9 will also be ending CVG-PHX nonstop service on April 23rd instead of continuing CVG-PHX nonstop service during the summertime as it did in past years.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:55 am

avtcle wrote:
PIT passenger numbers will be down anywhere from 2-3% for 2019,

PIT is up 0.9% through November and in 2019 the Sunday after Thanksgiving was in December unlike in 2018 so I expect Dec to be a growth month. I'm not sure where you are getting that PIT will be down 2-3% for 2019.

Having said that, CLE does indeed look to be in great shape and will move ahead of PIT in terms of total passengers for 2019.
FLYi
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:10 am

flyPIT wrote:
avtcle wrote:
PIT passenger numbers will be down anywhere from 2-3% for 2019,

PIT is up 0.9% through November and in 2019 the Sunday after Thanksgiving was in December unlike in 2018 so I expect Dec to be a growth month. I'm not sure where you are getting that PIT will be down 2-3% for 2019.

Having said that, CLE does indeed look to be in great shape and will move ahead of PIT in terms of total passengers for 2019.


My mistake. Thank you for the correction. I misread the first line and took the (-3.2%) as the YTD percentage -- I see that it is (+0.9) YTD.
https://www.flypittsburgh.com/getattach ... lang=en-US
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:16 am

https://clevelandairportmasterplan.com

CLE Master Plan webpage is up. Looks like they'll be posting updates there and you can also leave your own input. Says there will be some public forums about it as well.
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:39 pm

avtcle wrote:
https://clevelandairportmasterplan.com

CLE Master Plan webpage is up. Looks like they'll be posting updates there and you can also leave your own input. Says there will be some public forums about it as well.


Thanks for finding this site! I bet the consultant created it as it is pretty well done in my opinion. It gives me some more optimism (it's hard to be optimistic as a native Clevelander!).

It's encouraging that they are promoting public comment both through the website and at 3 public meetings to be held in 2020, as well as a public town hall. Projected completion date is Q1 2021. A few interesting tidbits from the FAQ section include that no changes in airside capacity will be considered (no new runways--not that they are needed at all) and:

    "Capacity in landside operations continues to create frustration among our passengers. We recognize the congestion in our parking facilities, roadways, ticketing and security screening areas of the facility and will be working to remedy the situation. Landside capacity will be an area of primary focus during this study."

    Here's a link to the graphic representation of the planning process: https://clevelandairportmasterplan.com/ ... ebsite.pdf
     
    SgtBarone
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:25 pm

    Cleveland.com article about the master plan website:

    https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... -plan.html
    AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAS LAX LGB MAD MCI MCO MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
     
    plinth857
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:41 pm

    More of the same from the City of Cleveland's leadership with regards to the airport:

    https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020 ... rator.html
     
    plinth857
    Posts: 140
    Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:39 pm

    SgtBarone wrote:
    Not really sure where this is located, but it looks like CLE now has a sock vending machine from a company called Stance (https://www.stance.com/). I'll have to look for this in a couple weeks when I fly to Nashville:

    https://twitter.com/FraportUSA/status/1 ... 7371286528


    It's right across from Bar Symon on Concourse C, near gates C4-C6. There were definitely some interesting items there the last time I passed through!
     
    avtcle
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:44 pm

    Theres been chatter around the UA network thread that United is dropping CLE-DCA. These are just assumptions, based on the fact that United is increasing EWR-DCA to 13x daily, up from 8x daily. CLE-DCA is still bookable at 5x daily through the entire schedule.

    The assumptions are based on this article (from October): https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-pl ... wth-spurt/

    United has since not added the new EWR-DCA flights to its schedule (but according to The Points Guy article, they were supposed to begin in March -- 3 months from now) and the CLE-DCA flight has seen no changes in the schedule.
     
    ncflyer
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:05 am

    I’m frankly surprised that CLE DCA outlasted CLE BOS. Loads are light, competes to some degree with IAD which is getting more capacity at certain times of year. AA will add some seats but fares will rise.
     
    avtcle
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:08 am

    Just to clarify, it’s not certain the route was cut. It’s still bookable and the article is from 3 months ago.
     
    jplatts
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:17 am

    ncflyer wrote:
    I’m frankly surprised that CLE DCA outlasted CLE BOS. Loads are light, competes to some degree with IAD which is getting more capacity at certain times of year. AA will add some seats but fares will rise.


    DCA is in the same market as UA's IAD hub, and UA has a FF base in the DC market to support CLE-DCA nonstop service. Similarly, LGA is in the same market as UA's EWR hub, and UA has a FF base in the NYC market to support CLE-LGA nonstop service.

    UA will still serve IAD nonstop in the DC market from CLE, even if UA drops CLE-DCA nonstop service. WN also serves BWI in the Baltimore/DC market nonstop from CLE.
     
    ncflyer
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:25 am

    Got it AVT— just something speculation. Honestly, would CLE business travelers be better off without UA on the route? IAD and BWI competition will keep fares in check. To CMH PIT IND CVG, AA is running two class larger RJs, yet to CLE it’s crummy CRJs and ERJs on AA and UA. UAs flight schedule is typically not spread real well throughout the day either.
     
    plinth857
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:53 am

    avtcle wrote:
    Just to clarify, it’s not certain the route was cut. It’s still bookable and the article is from 3 months ago.


    I still think it will last, at least for a little while longer. United has the GSA contract between CLE and DCA (and IAD for that matter), and I would believe most people on government business still prefer DCA to IAD for convenience and proximity. Of all the contracts out of Cleveland, the CLE-DCA city pair by far has the highest pax count and more than six times the pax count of IAD. That's got to be generating at least some revenue for them.
     
    greenair727
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:38 pm

    ^I agree. If you're going to DC, IAD is not an ideal airport as DCA is the only option. BWI is even further away. In addition to the distance for IAD, is the incredible traffic. I know UA hasn't been good to CLE and that they dropped BOS, but I'd be very surprised if they dropped DCA, a city (because of IAD) it has a strong FF base.
     
    greenair727
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:45 pm

    plinth857 wrote:
    More of the same from the City of Cleveland's leadership with regards to the airport:

    https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020 ... rator.html


    In the previous airport administration, under Ricky Smith, I don't remember seeing any security breaches like this--and now we're seeing quite a few. As Jackson has been in power during both Ricky Smith and Robert Kennedy, the other players in the city---Szabo, Brown, etc.--are the same. So what's changed? Is there more public reporting about this now? Is the TSA more vigilant than before? Or is it the current airport director less respected or just doesn't give a crap, as seen on the new routes front? After all, he wanted to quit according to the PD, but Jackson wouldn't let him, so he may be just punching a clock these days.
     
    ADL14
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:49 am

    My post submitted to the CLE Master Plan website:

    I truly hope this master plan really does become a workable plan. Despite inadequate leadership from the city and the airport management, the airport truly has done well with increased passenger numbers and lower fares. CLE has the potential to be a major station for any of the low cost carriers (WN, F9, NK, or even the new airline to-be-started by David Neeleman). I feel a major obstacle to achieving this is the age of the concourses, specifically A and B. I recently traveled on WN CLE-MDW and the difference in the feeling of the airports is night and day. I know they have very different operations, but, it's remarkable that our facility still has infrastructure from the 1960s. Concourse C looks to be a decent space, but UA seems to be sitting on those gates with no intention of using them to their potential as in the days of the CO hub.

    Another concern I have is for the newest, yet unused portion of the airport. I know the mothballed Concourse D is still being payed for by UA and it isn't configured for mainline operations. There must be something that can be done to integrate it into the master plan, even if it means significant renovation or reconfiguration.

    Bring CLE on par with its mid-sized peers (MSY, MCI, PIT, IND, etc.)
     
    ncflyer
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:52 am

    Your post is too kind to C! Too long not to have one but too narrow for a moving walkway and worst of all terribly ventilated and undersized restrooms.

    But I’m glad you posted your comments. Many more are needed.

    Until the business community lifts a finger to pressure the mayor this master facility plan will go nowhere. This is the same city that owns the west side market and is literally running that national treasure in to the ground, it’s utterly depressing. I applaud the PD for raising the issue periodically. Even this past weekend Susan Glaser wrote a nice article comparing new MSY terminal to our dinosaur— but outside of the PD— crickets.
     
    greenair727
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:11 am

    Who reviews the comments? Does the city do it or is the site run by the consultant? I hope the latter. Otherwise comments like yours that says, "Despite inadequate leadership from the city and the airport management...." though wholly accurate, may never see the light of day if its censured by the city. I'll add some comments as well, but not if its going to be initially screened by the current airport management and their view of 'do nothing ever'.
     
    jplatts
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:42 pm

    ADL14 wrote:
    My post submitted to the CLE Master Plan website:

    I truly hope this master plan really does become a workable plan. Despite inadequate leadership from the city and the airport management, the airport truly has done well with increased passenger numbers and lower fares. CLE has the potential to be a major station for any of the low cost carriers (WN, F9, NK, or even the new airline to-be-started by David Neeleman). I feel a major obstacle to achieving this is the age of the concourses, specifically A and B. I recently traveled on WN CLE-MDW and the difference in the feeling of the airports is night and day. I know they have very different operations, but, it's remarkable that our facility still has infrastructure from the 1960s. Concourse C looks to be a decent space, but UA seems to be sitting on those gates with no intention of using them to their potential as in the days of the CO hub.

    Another concern I have is for the newest, yet unused portion of the airport. I know the mothballed Concourse D is still being payed for by UA and it isn't configured for mainline operations. There must be something that can be done to integrate it into the master plan, even if it means significant renovation or reconfiguration.

    Bring CLE on par with its mid-sized peers (MSY, MCI, PIT, IND, etc.)


    There are still a few more nonstop routes that could be added by WN out of CLE such as CLE-AUS, CLE-HOU, CLE-MCI, CLE-LAX, and CLE-SAN, and I have also previously mentioned that WN was considering adding CLE-HOU nonstop service back in October 2017. WN could also increase CLE-DAL, CLE-FLL, CLE-LAS, and CLE-MCO to daily nonstop service.

    I have also mentioned NK possibly adding CLE-IAH nonstop service with IAH being one of the biggest NK stations that NK doesn't currently serve nonstop from CLE.
     
    plinth857
    Posts: 140
    Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:23 pm

    jplatts wrote:
    There are still a few more nonstop routes that could be added by WN out of CLE such as CLE-AUS, CLE-HOU, CLE-MCI, CLE-LAX, and CLE-SAN, and I have also previously mentioned that WN was considering adding CLE-HOU nonstop service back in October 2017. WN could also increase CLE-DAL, CLE-FLL, CLE-LAS, and CLE-MCO to daily nonstop service.

    I have also mentioned NK possibly adding CLE-IAH nonstop service with IAH being one of the biggest NK stations that NK doesn't currently serve nonstop from CLE.


    I wonder if AA will bring DFW back to five flights for the summer. If not, I really don't know why WN doesn't increase CLE-DAL to daily. Right now, there are only three nonstops between Cleveland and Dallas, and one of them is on a regional jet. I know Spirit operates their seasonal flights there starting in late April, but capacity seems unusually low. This is the city pair I fly most often, and I would love to have Southwest as an option.
     
    jplatts
    Posts: 3329
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:35 pm

    plinth857 wrote:
    I wonder if AA will bring DFW back to five flights for the summer. If not, I really don't know why WN doesn't increase CLE-DAL to daily. Right now, there are only three nonstops between Cleveland and Dallas, and one of them is on a regional jet. I know Spirit operates their seasonal flights there starting in late April, but capacity seems unusually low. This is the city pair I fly most often, and I would love to have Southwest as an option.


    While AA and WN are both facing plane shortages due to the 737 MAX grounding, I agree that WN increasing CLE-DAL to daily nonstop service is a possibility once WN has more planes in its fleet.
     
    ADL14
    Posts: 8
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:48 pm

    jplatts wrote:
    ADL14 wrote:
    My post submitted to the CLE Master Plan website:

    I truly hope this master plan really does become a workable plan. Despite inadequate leadership from the city and the airport management, the airport truly has done well with increased passenger numbers and lower fares. CLE has the potential to be a major station for any of the low cost carriers (WN, F9, NK, or even the new airline to-be-started by David Neeleman). I feel a major obstacle to achieving this is the age of the concourses, specifically A and B. I recently traveled on WN CLE-MDW and the difference in the feeling of the airports is night and day. I know they have very different operations, but, it's remarkable that our facility still has infrastructure from the 1960s. Concourse C looks to be a decent space, but UA seems to be sitting on those gates with no intention of using them to their potential as in the days of the CO hub.

    Another concern I have is for the newest, yet unused portion of the airport. I know the mothballed Concourse D is still being payed for by UA and it isn't configured for mainline operations. There must be something that can be done to integrate it into the master plan, even if it means significant renovation or reconfiguration.

    Bring CLE on par with its mid-sized peers (MSY, MCI, PIT, IND, etc.)


    There are still a few more nonstop routes that could be added by WN out of CLE such as CLE-AUS, CLE-HOU, CLE-MCI, CLE-LAX, and CLE-SAN, and I have also previously mentioned that WN was considering adding CLE-HOU nonstop service back in October 2017. WN could also increase CLE-DAL, CLE-FLL, CLE-LAS, and CLE-MCO to daily nonstop service.

    I have also mentioned NK possibly adding CLE-IAH nonstop service with IAH being one of the biggest NK stations that NK doesn't currently serve nonstop from CLE.


    I wonder if there's something we are missing regarding WN service in CLE. Of course they have not been able to do much lately because of the MAX issue. But I've read on here that CLE has never been on the radar for true growth. Why is that? I do like your first set of suggested routes.

    It would be great if WN or NK were able to up their game (even with NK's DTW operation).
     
    izbtmnhd
    Posts: 905
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:21 pm

    ADL14 wrote:
    jplatts wrote:
    ADL14 wrote:
    My post submitted to the CLE Master Plan website:

    I truly hope this master plan really does become a workable plan. Despite inadequate leadership from the city and the airport management, the airport truly has done well with increased passenger numbers and lower fares. CLE has the potential to be a major station for any of the low cost carriers (WN, F9, NK, or even the new airline to-be-started by David Neeleman). I feel a major obstacle to achieving this is the age of the concourses, specifically A and B. I recently traveled on WN CLE-MDW and the difference in the feeling of the airports is night and day. I know they have very different operations, but, it's remarkable that our facility still has infrastructure from the 1960s. Concourse C looks to be a decent space, but UA seems to be sitting on those gates with no intention of using them to their potential as in the days of the CO hub.

    Another concern I have is for the newest, yet unused portion of the airport. I know the mothballed Concourse D is still being payed for by UA and it isn't configured for mainline operations. There must be something that can be done to integrate it into the master plan, even if it means significant renovation or reconfiguration.

    Bring CLE on par with its mid-sized peers (MSY, MCI, PIT, IND, etc.)


    There are still a few more nonstop routes that could be added by WN out of CLE such as CLE-AUS, CLE-HOU, CLE-MCI, CLE-LAX, and CLE-SAN, and I have also previously mentioned that WN was considering adding CLE-HOU nonstop service back in October 2017. WN could also increase CLE-DAL, CLE-FLL, CLE-LAS, and CLE-MCO to daily nonstop service.

    I have also mentioned NK possibly adding CLE-IAH nonstop service with IAH being one of the biggest NK stations that NK doesn't currently serve nonstop from CLE.


    I wonder if there's something we are missing regarding WN service in CLE. Of course they have not been able to do much lately because of the MAX issue. But I've read on here that CLE has never been on the radar for true growth. Why is that? I do like your first set of suggested routes.

    It would be great if WN or NK were able to up their game (even with NK's DTW operation).


    I've been hearing from a source NK is looking to expand CLE this year. Have nothing specific. Just FYI.
     
    jplatts
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:35 pm

    izbtmnhd wrote:
    ADL14 wrote:
    It would be great if WN or NK were able to up their game (even with NK's DTW operation).


    I've been hearing from a source NK is looking to expand CLE this year. Have nothing specific. Just FYI.


    If NK expands at CLE, I would probably expect NK to add CLE-IAH nonstop service with IAH being one of the largest NK stations that NK doesn't currently serve nonstop from CLE.
     
    avtcle
    Posts: 289
    Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:35 pm

    Cleveland has a superior low cost network compared to its peers, and we should be thankful for that. CVG, IND, PIT, CMH are pretty far off from matching the level and competition of CLEs low cost market -- so it would make sense that Spirit could be watching CLE.

    To compare...

    CLE
    Frontier: 18 nonstop
    Spirit: 12 nonstop
    JetBlue: 2 nonstop
    Allegiant: 11 nonstop
    43 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers.

    PIT
    Frontier: 1 nonstop
    Spirit: 8 nonstop
    Allegiant: 12 nonstop
    JetBlue: 1 nonstop
    22 total routes nonstop w/ low cost carriers

    CMH
    Frontier: 4 nonstop
    Spirit: 7 nonstop
    11 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers

    CVG
    Allegiant: 20 nonstop
    Frontier: 14 nonstop
    34 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers

    IND
    Allegiant: 15 nonstop
    Frontier: 5 nonstop
    Spirit: 4 nonstop
    24 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers

    CLE leads all, and that just says a lot about how strong our market is. It speaks for itself. They don't even need CLE's terrible air service development team to convince them.
     
    fun2fly
    Posts: 1550
    Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:17 pm

    avtcle wrote:
    Cleveland has a superior low cost network compared to its peers, and we should be thankful for that. CVG, IND, PIT, CMH are pretty far off from matching the level and competition of CLEs low cost market -- so it would make sense that Spirit could be watching CLE.

    To compare...

    CLE
    Frontier: 18 nonstop
    Spirit: 12 nonstop
    JetBlue: 2 nonstop
    Allegiant: 11 nonstop
    43 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers.

    PIT
    Frontier: 1 nonstop
    Spirit: 8 nonstop
    Allegiant: 12 nonstop
    JetBlue: 1 nonstop
    22 total routes nonstop w/ low cost carriers

    CMH
    Frontier: 4 nonstop
    Spirit: 7 nonstop
    11 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers

    CVG
    Allegiant: 20 nonstop
    Frontier: 14 nonstop
    34 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers

    IND
    Allegiant: 15 nonstop
    Frontier: 5 nonstop
    Spirit: 4 nonstop
    24 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers

    CLE leads all, and that just says a lot about how strong our market is. It speaks for itself. They don't even need CLE's terrible air service development team to convince them.


    Otherwise interpreted as we're "bad for business routes on legacy carriers, but we love to vacation." I'd say the air service development team had to have something to do with these 43 routes. I agree , they are not stellar by any means w.r.t. development of needed routes (SEA, TATL, etc.).
     
    garybow
    Posts: 14
    Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:39 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:20 am

    You left off G4 CMH routes-10
     
    avtcle
    Posts: 289
    Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:36 am

    Allegiant operates out of LCK, not CMH^
     
    jplatts
    Posts: 3329
    Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:58 pm

    avtcle wrote:
    Cleveland has a superior low cost network compared to its peers, and we should be thankful for that. CVG, IND, PIT, CMH are pretty far off from matching the level and competition of CLEs low cost market -- so it would make sense that Spirit could be watching CLE.

    To compare...

    CLE
    43 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers.

    PIT
    22 total routes nonstop w/ low cost carriers

    CMH
    11 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers

    CVG
    34 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers

    IND
    24 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers


    There are more nonstop routes served by LCC's out of CLE, CVG, CMH, IND, and PIT if WN is counted as a LCC, including the following:
    CLE-BWI, CLE-MDW, CLE-MKE, CLE-STL, CVG-BWI, CVG-MDW, CMH-BWI, CMH-BOS, CMH-DAL, CMH-HOU, CMH-BNA, CMH-STL, CMH-DCA, IND-ATL, IND-BWI, IND-MDW, IND-DAL, IND-HOU, IND-MCI, IND-PHX, PIT-ATL, PIT-BWI, PIT-MDW, PIT-DAL, PIT-HOU, PIT-BNA, PIT-PHX, PIT-STL
     
    ncflyer
    Posts: 1316
    Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:15 pm

    Yep I think that picture ought to include WN. Whereas WN has decent FL service out of PIT and CMH and IND, it's almost nonexistent out of CLE. Nonetheless AVTCLE's overall point stands, I keep reminding myself that one F9A321 (and now NK us flying A321s to CLE sometimes) has more capacity than four of the ERJ's on UA.
     
    avtcle
    Posts: 289
    Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:38 pm

    Still including Southwest, Cleveland has more LCC service than its peer cities. There really isn't room for expanded Florida service out of CLE. SWA weekend service to TPA, RSW, MCO, FLL is fine. The nice thing about Cleveland is its very diverse offerings. For example, if you want to fly CLE-FLL, you have the choice between JetBlue, Spirit, Frontier, Southwest or United. If you want to fly PIT-FLL, you have the choice between Spirit or Southwest. This is the case on most Florida routes out of CLE. They have healthy competition and Cleveland has the low cost demand to support them all.
     
    SgtBarone
    Posts: 246
    Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:47 pm

    Cantina Taqueria & Tequila Bar is now open in the banjo in the former Winners spot:

    https://twitter.com/goingplacesCLE/stat ... 9837871109

    Upscale Beauty also opened across from InMotion:

    https://www.instagram.com/p/B7BrYjpp_66 ... jo180okrjs
    AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAS LAX LGB MAD MCI MCO MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
     
    jplatts
    Posts: 3329
    Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:31 am

    avtcle wrote:
    Still including Southwest, Cleveland has more LCC service than its peer cities. There really isn't room for expanded Florida service out of CLE. SWA weekend service to TPA, RSW, MCO, FLL is fine. The nice thing about Cleveland is its very diverse offerings. For example, if you want to fly CLE-FLL, you have the choice between JetBlue, Spirit, Frontier, Southwest or United. If you want to fly PIT-FLL, you have the choice between Spirit or Southwest. This is the case on most Florida routes out of CLE. They have healthy competition and Cleveland has the low cost demand to support them all.


    CLE probably can support daily nonstop service to MCO on WN with
    (a) WN already having daily nonstop service to MCO from some nearby markets such as BUF, CMH, GRR, IND, PIT, and ROC,
    (b) VFR traffic on the MCO end of the CLE-MCO route,
    and
    (c) WN already having a FF base in both the CLE and MCO markets to support daily nonstop service to MCO from CLE.

    WN increasing CLE-FLL nonstop service from Saturday-only nonstop service to daily nonstop service is also a possibility as WN had previously stated that it wanted to offer connections to international destinations from CLE at FLL if it added CLE-FLL nonstop service. The current WN Saturday-only nonstop flight to FLL from CLE also departs from CLE at 3:25 PM and arrives at FLL at 6:25 PM, arriving at FLL after all of WN's international departures out of FLL. WN would need also probably need to either move the current Saturday CLE-FLL nonstop flight to a morning departure or to add an morning departure to FLL from CLE in order to allow passengers to connect onto WN international flights out of FLL from CLE.
     
    ncflyer
    Posts: 1316
    Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:01 pm

    http://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/01/s ... sites.html

    Wonderful confirmation from the blogger dude who follows Sherwin Williams-- super specific details (including a nice surprise) on their HQ plans. I know this has nothing directly to do with an airline discussion board, but the job retention and consolidating many new jobs in CLE from elsewhere for a very international company will have a bigger impact on air service than most of what we discuss on the board. It is my hope that Sherwin Williams leveraged some sort of improvements out of Hopkins/air service as part of their bargaining.
     
    greenair727
    Posts: 1392
    Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:04 pm

    ^I agree that it will have a positive impact on demand to/from CLE. Not only will it drive suppliers and other business partners to meetings in CLE, but also VFR traffic. The article says 400 R&D employees will move to CLE from MSP---those people (and their families) will travel where ever and travel back home to MSP to see family and friends. And though CLE gained by SW acquiring Vaspar, CLE lost out in that Joshen Paper was just bought by London-based Bunzl. Though assuming CLE and US operation continue, that may drive even more demand for CLE-London:

    https://www.crainscleveland.com/manufac ... -cleveland
     
    luckyone
    Posts: 2913
    Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:24 pm

    fun2fly wrote:
    avtcle wrote:
    Cleveland has a superior low cost network compared to its peers, and we should be thankful for that. CVG, IND, PIT, CMH are pretty far off from matching the level and competition of CLEs low cost market -- so it would make sense that Spirit could be watching CLE.

    To compare...

    CLE
    Frontier: 18 nonstop
    Spirit: 12 nonstop
    JetBlue: 2 nonstop
    Allegiant: 11 nonstop
    43 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers.

    PIT
    Frontier: 1 nonstop
    Spirit: 8 nonstop
    Allegiant: 12 nonstop
    JetBlue: 1 nonstop
    22 total routes nonstop w/ low cost carriers

    CMH
    Frontier: 4 nonstop
    Spirit: 7 nonstop
    11 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers

    CVG
    Allegiant: 20 nonstop
    Frontier: 14 nonstop
    34 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers

    IND
    Allegiant: 15 nonstop
    Frontier: 5 nonstop
    Spirit: 4 nonstop
    24 total nonstop routes w/ low cost carriers

    CLE leads all, and that just says a lot about how strong our market is. It speaks for itself. They don't even need CLE's terrible air service development team to convince them.


    Otherwise interpreted as we're "bad for business routes on legacy carriers, but we love to vacation." I'd say the air service development team had to have something to do with these 43 routes. I agree , they are not stellar by any means w.r.t. development of needed routes (SEA, TATL, etc.).

    You beat me too it. A significant level of service Clevelanders are willing or able to pay for is only sustainable on ULCCs, and a lot of these routes are not daily. I can't imagine that's going to encourage the city spending a lot of money on a revamped airport because ULCCs may balk at the fees. One thing the airport could do to encourage a more pleasant experience is do something about the absolutely awful congestion at the pickup lane. I've been to a lot of airports, but I've never seen an airport that size that just allows people to stop and park in the pickup lanes. The cars can be three deep and if you're blocked in, then you're SOL because they will not move--and this happened to me and my friends more than a few times. Most airports have personnel in the lanes to keep traffic moving.
     
    chrisjake
    Posts: 994
    Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:19 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:05 pm

    greenair727 wrote:
    The article says 400 R&D employees will move to CLE from MSP---those people (and their families) will travel where ever and travel back home to MSP to see family and friends


    ...which is exactly why Sun County starts MSP-CLE in 2020
     
    ncflyer
    Posts: 1316
    Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:40 pm

    Greenair best I can tell that acquisition in Crains is a $300mm sales company. Not much of a factor for air travel at that size even with a London HQ.
     
    greenair727
    Posts: 1392
    Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:28 am

    ^It won't create the CLE-LON demand of say, the Cleveland Clinic London, but it will certainly create SOME CLE-LHR/LGW traffic.
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