greenair727 wrote:

And though CLE gained by SW acquiring Vaspar, CLE lost out in that Joshen Paper was just bought by London-based Bunzl. Though assuming CLE and US operation continue, that may drive even more demand for CLE-London:

https://www.crainscleveland.com/manufac ... -cleveland

BA adding CLE-LHR nonstop service is a possibility with BA already having nonstop service out of LHR to some non-AA hub destinations in the U.S. such as ATL, AUS, BWI, BOS, DEN, IAH, LAS, BNA, MSY, EWR, PIT, SAN, SFO, SJC, SEA, and IAD. BA would also be able to offer 1-stop connecting service from CLE to many destinations in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and India from CLE through LHR if it adds CLE-LHR nonstop service.

greenair727 wrote:

^It won't create the CLE-LON demand of say, the Cleveland Clinic London, but it will certainly create SOME CLE-LHR/LGW traffic.

The number of people going back and forth between CCF Main Campus and London on a regular basis is not going to be that many. The C-suite folks will go back and forth at the beginning, then that will taper off, and they may go once or twice per year depending on the need. The medical staff will never be going back and forth regularly. If Abu Dhabi is anything to guage it upon, department and section heads may go once or twice. CCF London is going to have 185 beds. That's a small hospital. CCF Main has 1,500. Employees of CCF London are going to be 2/3 locally sourced, if CCF holds to its previous claims that it will staff it similar to their Abu Dhabi operation.

With Cleveland's proximity to PIT, I can't imagine IAG (BA) deciding to add service here too. Aer Lingus is certainly our best shot at this point, and there was an Irish Times article that came out today that says Aer Lingus is piosed to add more TATL routes in 2021 as their A321LR delivery delays finally catch up. Though its IAG like BA, having 2 different brands in 2 relatively close cities is much safer than the alternative, which would be BA basically competing with itself in PIT, CLE -- because there's no doubt PIT-LHR is pulling some traffic from NEO. Aer Lingus would also work better for Cleveland because the risk factor due to aircraft is also lower. Operating an A321LR on a new TATL route w/ limited subsidy offerings is a safer roll of the dice than adding 787 service to a midsize midwestern city. I hope the airport keeps courting Aer Lingus, they seem like our best shot at stable, year-round, and continued nonstop service to Europe offering a large connecting network.

avtcle wrote:

With Cleveland's proximity to PIT, I can't imagine IAG (BA) deciding to add service here too. Aer Lingus is certainly our best shot at this point, and there was an Irish Times article that came out today that says Aer Lingus is piosed to add more TATL routes in 2021 as their A321LR delivery delays finally catch up. Though its IAG like BA, having 2 different brands in 2 relatively close cities is much safer than the alternative, which would be BA basically competing with itself in PIT, CLE -- because there's no doubt PIT-LHR is pulling some traffic from NEO. Aer Lingus would also work better for Cleveland because the risk factor due to aircraft is also lower. Operating an A321LR on a new TATL route w/ limited subsidy offerings is a safer roll of the dice than adding 787 service to a midsize midwestern city. I hope the airport keeps courting Aer Lingus, they seem like our best shot at stable, year-round, and continued nonstop service to Europe offering a large connecting network.

Do you have a link to the article? I’d like to read it. Thanks

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irisht ... 3fmode=amp ^

luckyone wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

^It won't create the CLE-LON demand of say, the Cleveland Clinic London, but it will certainly create SOME CLE-LHR/LGW traffic.

The number of people going back and forth between CCF Main Campus and London on a regular basis is not going to be that many.

The medical staff may not fill the skies, but the research staff might. A big goal of CCF London is to increase research collaboration between US and UK institutions, and those folks travel a lot.

avtcle wrote:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-s-upward-trajectory-to-continue-despite-willie-walsh-s-departure-1.4135279%3fmode=amp ^

I saw that one but it didn't say anything about adding more routes in 2021 unless I missed it.

masseybrown wrote:

luckyone wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

^It won't create the CLE-LON demand of say, the Cleveland Clinic London, but it will certainly create SOME CLE-LHR/LGW traffic.

The number of people going back and forth between CCF Main Campus and London on a regular basis is not going to be that many.

The medical staff may not fill the skies, but the research staff might. A big goal of CCF London is to increase research collaboration between US and UK institutions, and those folks travel a lot.

Just out of curiosity, how many people do you think that actually is? I can assure it's not many, and the number grows ever smaller as the research model moves away from purely individually grant-funded initiatives.

Jshank83 wrote:

avtcle wrote:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-s-upward-trajectory-to-continue-despite-willie-walsh-s-departure-1.4135279%3fmode=amp ^

I saw that one but it didn't say anything about adding more routes in 2021 unless I missed it.

It says it right under the title:

“Irish airline is now IAG’s top performer, and set to add more transatlantic routes”

They were planning on new TATL routes this year, but were hit with the A321LR delays

Went to the Airspace Lounge at CLE this morning, and they said they are closing at the end of the month. Kinda a bummer to lose a not affiliated lounge, but hoping they replace it with another lounge that Priority Pass accepts.

jmertic wrote:

Went to the Airspace Lounge at CLE this morning, and they said they are closing at the end of the month. Kinda a bummer to lose a not affiliated lounge, but hoping they replace it with another lounge that Priority Pass accepts.

That is a shame, did they say why it was closing? Could be coincidence but from my visits the past year business seemed to be picking up..

In 2018 they had partnered with Icelandair as a lounge for their passengers. That probably gave them a nice boost in business that they’ve now lost.

HPAEAA wrote:

jmertic wrote:

Went to the Airspace Lounge at CLE this morning, and they said they are closing at the end of the month. Kinda a bummer to lose a not affiliated lounge, but hoping they replace it with another lounge that Priority Pass accepts.

That is a shame, did they say why it was closing? Could be coincidence but from my visits the past year business seemed to be picking up..

No reason, and in fact the lounge attendant there thought they may even close beforehand.

The attendant did make a comment about the company closing, so wondering if the other lounges left are also going out.

jmertic wrote:

HPAEAA wrote:

jmertic wrote:

Went to the Airspace Lounge at CLE this morning, and they said they are closing at the end of the month. Kinda a bummer to lose a not affiliated lounge, but hoping they replace it with another lounge that Priority Pass accepts.

That is a shame, did they say why it was closing? Could be coincidence but from my visits the past year business seemed to be picking up..

No reason, and in fact the lounge attendant there thought they may even close beforehand.

The attendant did make a comment about the company closing, so wondering if the other lounges left are also going out.

Yeah, I was just looking at the website, it looks like CLE & SAN are the only lounges left. Too bad amex or one of the majors can’t figure out a lounge lite concept...

jmertic wrote:

Went to the Airspace Lounge at CLE this morning, and they said they are closing at the end of the month. Kinda a bummer to lose a not affiliated lounge, but hoping they replace it with another lounge that Priority Pass accepts.

I've heard the area will be renovated/expanded and a Priority Pass Lounge will open when the work is done. Have not heard a date.

masseybrown wrote:

jmertic wrote:

Went to the Airspace Lounge at CLE this morning, and they said they are closing at the end of the month. Kinda a bummer to lose a not affiliated lounge, but hoping they replace it with another lounge that Priority Pass accepts.

I've heard the area will be renovated/expanded and a Priority Pass Lounge will open when the work is done. Have not heard a date.

That would be good - and for a Priority Pass Lounge they need about double the space at least.

Assuming they would push out that wall opposite the current bar - what’s behind there now?

Hopefully Bar Symon will stay a Priority Pass restaurant even if they open a lounge.

A Priority Pass lounge in CLE would be good for the city. I liked the Airspace Lounge and always stopped in there before a flight if I had time, but a Priority Pass lounge would help the image of the city/airport as its a more popular lounge with a larger customer base. The smallness of the Airspace Lounge was one of my first impressions (and, as part of this, no bathrooms, which is unusual for an airport club), so its good to hear an expanded club is in the works.

Some news about Constant Aviation:

Constant Aviation Names New CEO, 'Refocuses' Business

"A “refocus” on Constant Aviation’s business prompted the closing of its facility at Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport last week, the Cleveland, Ohio-based MRO provider announced late yesterday. Constant also said former Flexjet chief operating officer David Davies has been named its new CEO, replacing Stephen Maiden, who left the company on January 1...."

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... s-business

jmertic wrote:

That would be good - and for a Priority Pass Lounge they need about double the space at least.

Assuming they would push out that wall opposite the current bar - what’s behind there now?

I thought there was administrative space (with boardrooms and such).

corn4ahead wrote:

Hopefully Bar Symon will stay a Priority Pass restaurant even if they open a lounge.

I thought Bar Symon stopped accepting Priority Pass a few months ago. Did I misread the sign? I have used Air Space every trip I have taken since it opened except one (departure too early.) Fingers crossed for a Priority Pass lounge!

Bar Symon still on the Priority Pass app. . . . .

I'm not a United Club member. I hope it's kept up well, to the standards of clubs in other UA airports????

ncflyer wrote:

Bar Symon still on the Priority Pass app. . . . .

I'm not a United Club member. I hope it's kept up well, to the standards of clubs in other UA airports????

The Bar Symon deal is the best wtih PP. You eat and drink better than any club. UA club is tired and will need a redo here in the roaring 20's. I never went into the other club, but I hope there are some other options developed there.

fun2fly wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

Bar Symon still on the Priority Pass app. . . . .

I'm not a United Club member. I hope it's kept up well, to the standards of clubs in other UA airports????

The Bar Symon deal is the best wtih PP. You eat and drink better than any club. UA club is tired and will need a redo here in the roaring 20's. I never went into the other club, but I hope there are some other options developed there.

There are different levels of Priority Pass membership. With the one that comes with certain credit cards (e.g. the Hilton Honors AMEX), members lost access to non-lounges, including unfortunately, Bar Symon, in fall 2019.

On another board someone mentioned a potential rumor of CLE-BRU on SN. Anyone else hear this?

Link? I’d be incredibly surprised. SN doesnt really fly to secondary US cities.

I see it happening on the Urban Ohio forum^

It’s an interesting thought. They are part of star alliance which would be the most attractive for Cleveland’s flying base, many of which are still UA FFs.

But hey, never in my life did I once think we’d have 2 carriers flying from Cleveland to Iceland 9x weekly — so I never count anything out anymore!

^yes, that is where I saw it. It is an interesting idea--and I'd prefer a direct link to BRU over DUB (on EI).

I find SN hard to believe. They only have 11 aircraft capable of flying the route and I would imagine an A330-200/300 is just too large of an aircraft.

^Of course, no one flight would carry all of CLE's TATL demand each day as people have preferences and schedule constraints, but isn't they city's daily demand around 250 pax per direction per day?

While the airline seems like a longshot, Icelandair/WOW Air combined certainly carried the capacity of an A330 during their combined 9x weekly service in 2018.

In June 2018, Icelandair/WOW carried a combined 6,106 passengers from CLE to KEF, a combined 87% Load factor over 30 days.

Brussels Airlines A330-300 carriers 295 passengers. That would be 8,850 seats for the month.

Just by using the info we know from Icelandair and WOW, Cleveland would’ve generated a 70% Load factor with DAILY A330 service. Pull that down to 4x weekly A330, and that would be 5,310 seats. Cleveland would’ve generated a 114% Load factor — we would’ve had more demand than available seats. The argument that Cleveland couldn’t support A330 service just isn’t right.

Also, you have to think a route to mainland Europe, with an airline that’s part of star alliance and offering better connecting options, would attract even more traffic than WOW/Icelandair did.

^I agree. And also for the route to be a successful business route, should be daily. Based on this:

"In June 2018, Icelandair/WOW carried a combined 6,106 passengers from CLE to KEF, a combined 87% Load factor over 30 days."

that's 203 pax per day. With a flight directly to the Mainland, plus being part of one of the three major alliance--esp. Star Alliance--with induced demand, SN could easily fill an A330 with daily service.

Too late for a summer 2020 announcement, no? The KEF numbers had a lot of stimulation from low fares, is that Brussel Air's shtick too? This one seems like way too much of a stretch to me but it's fun to talk about anyway.

Brussels Airlines is part of Lufthansa group, and Cleveland did have a meeting with Lufthansa in 2018 when CLE hosted the JumpStart air service conference.

With FI, say the MAX is back in April or May, do they quickly launch CLE or do they have other plans to fly that a/c somewhere else? I'm trying to figure out what they'd do if they suddenly have XX planes available to them with short notice.

SN to BRU would be a long shot due to the A/C. More and more Star carriers are offering options over BRU, UA rocks out BRU with tons of capacity from other hubs too. There's at least one former F500 company in CLE with decent demand to/from BRU, but not "Apple" volume. If SN had a 215 seat 763 it would be a much more feasible options daily summer, 5x winter..

As the person who started this thread a decade ago, I can honestly say that's the first time I've seen that rumor! Good ingenuity.

My bet is still EI, then FI. I'd prefer anyone to LHR or DL to AMS vs. those other options however.

Back to rumors that are true. UA is ending LGA and DCA per PD. Love the hoo haa in the article about adding seats to IAD and EWR. Don’t believe that.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... ional.html

ncflyer wrote:

Back to rumors that are true. UA is ending LGA and DCA per PD. Love the hoo haa in the article about adding seats to IAD and EWR. Don’t believe that.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... ional.html

Have some of that! DL pushed UA out of BOS, now LGA in just a few years. I certainly understand UA's point on this, some UA NYC traveler will pay a lot more for the same seat on the Shuttle to DCA than they'd ever make on a CLE traveler. As a 1MM UA flyer, the 1MM achievement becomes less and less valuable every year not living in a UA hub.

With the IAD FF base, I never thought UA would give up DCA to AA, but I stand corrected!

fun2fly wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

Back to rumors that are true. UA is ending LGA and DCA per PD. Love the hoo haa in the article about adding seats to IAD and EWR. Don’t believe that.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... ional.html

Have some of that! DL pushed UA out of BOS, now LGA in just a few years. I certainly understand UA's point on this, some UA NYC traveler will pay a lot more for the same seat on the Shuttle to DCA than they'd ever make on a CLE traveler. As a 1MM UA flyer, the 1MM achievement becomes less and less valuable every year not living in a UA hub.

With the IAD FF base, I never thought UA would give up DCA to AA, but I stand corrected!

I’m curious to see if AA does anything with its schedule to become more competitive, 3x to LGA isn’t going to last long if they want any of the business traffic...

By load factors both markets are over capacity— off top of my head they are the two lowest load factor routes out of CLE. But 3crj’s per day to DCA on AA, doubt that’s a steady state. I predict two more frequencies and maybe one or two on larger planes.

Strategically I think it was dumbest for UA to give up on BOS because it handed to Delta a superior connecting hub for TATL over the NY airports. Then again I don’t think people in Chicago Route planning are losing a lot of sleep over CLE.

ExpressJet will shutter it’s Cleveland base by year-end. Likely sooner. Lots of jobs gone, especially in maintenance. Here’s an excerpt of a message to employees:

“Outside of an unexpected major industry shift, we have been informed to expect the Cleveland crew base to cease to exist by the year end, most likely sooner, in the early fall.”

ncflyer wrote:

Back to rumors that are true. UA is ending LGA and DCA per PD. Love the hoo haa in the article about adding seats to IAD and EWR. Don’t believe that.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... ional.html

I was definitely surprised by the DCA elimination, but I suppose it was inevitable. I would expect the GSA to switch the contract to American once United stops flying the route. I can't imagine the government will want to put the most heavily traveled route between the two cities on a contract requiring a Chicago or Newark connection.

ncflyer wrote:

Back to rumors that are true. UA is ending LGA and DCA per PD. Love the hoo haa in the article about adding seats to IAD and EWR. Don’t believe that.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... ional.html

No net decease in seats to either metro area per spokesman! So that's around a 200 seat gap to DC and 250 to NYC to substitute on a busier weekday, and connections to even more of their global route network!!!
Let's all rejoice

Can’t tell if you believe that or are being sarcastic. This week UA is running 3 CRJs to IAD each day. That’s it. Winter doldrums. They’ll use that as a point of comparison to say they’re adding 250 seats!

avtcle wrote:

ExpressJet will shutter it’s Cleveland base by year-end. Likely sooner. Lots of jobs gone, especially in maintenance. Here’s an excerpt of a message to employees:

“Outside of an unexpected major industry shift, we have been informed to expect the Cleveland crew base to cease to exist by the year end, most likely sooner, in the early fall.”

Other than maintenance staff, what other positions are based at CLE for ExpressJet. How many employees do they have? This is unfortunate news. There still is a UA pilot and FA base at CLE, right? Wonder if that will last much longer.

CLEguy wrote:

avtcle wrote:

ExpressJet will shutter it’s Cleveland base by year-end. Likely sooner. Lots of jobs gone, especially in maintenance. Here’s an excerpt of a message to employees:

“Outside of an unexpected major industry shift, we have been informed to expect the Cleveland crew base to cease to exist by the year end, most likely sooner, in the early fall.”

Other than maintenance staff, what other positions are based at CLE for ExpressJet. How many employees do they have? This is unfortunate news. There still is a UA pilot and FA base at CLE, right? Wonder if that will last much longer.

One thing that will last is United's 737 maintenance base in CLE... routinely recognized as one of the strongest and cost effective in their system. United no longer uses 319's or 320's through Cleveland at all.

fun2fly wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

Back to rumors that are true. UA is ending LGA and DCA per PD. Love the hoo haa in the article about adding seats to IAD and EWR. Don’t believe that.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... ional.html

Have some of that! DL pushed UA out of BOS, now LGA in just a few years. I certainly understand UA's point on this, some UA NYC traveler will pay a lot more for the same seat on the Shuttle to DCA than they'd ever make on a CLE traveler. As a 1MM UA flyer, the 1MM achievement becomes less and less valuable every year not living in a UA hub.

With the IAD FF base, I never thought UA would give up DCA to AA, but I stand corrected!

Tell me how DL pushed UA out of BOS considering they didn’t even add CLE until they announced the route was being discontinued?

So, while the looooong goodbye drags out with UA, CLE annoounced 10,040K passengers for 2019, breaking the 10 million barrier and finishing the year on a high with Dec '19 up 7.7% over Dec '18.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... -up-4.html

Oh yeah!! That’s an incredible achievement for our airport! Never did I think after 2014 would we see this volume of traffic ever pass through the airport again. Hopefully more growth to come this year!

Why would they close the Express maintenance facilities? There are numerous examples of maintenance operations in small stations - eg Delta in Duluth MN. Plus - it's not like there is a surplus of mechanics out there to let a bunch go. Also - I expect DL/AA to fill replace UA on these routes.

When I was booking travel for my employer (and back in the days of UA monopoly) $1,000 OW fares to DCA/LGA/BOS were common. Chicago must have freaked out when airfares were cut by 60 % as soon as UA had any price competition.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Why would they close the Express maintenance facilities? There are numerous examples of maintenance operations in small stations - eg Delta in Duluth MN. Plus - it's not like there is a surplus of mechanics out there to let a bunch go. Also - I expect DL/AA to fill replace UA on these routes.

When I was booking travel for my employer (and back in the days of UA monopoly) $1,000 OW fares to DCA/LGA/BOS were common. Chicago must have freaked out when airfares were cut by 60 % as soon as UA had any price competition.

According to the employee notice, their entire operation in Cleveland will be shut down.