Maybe United will hire'em for the 737NG life extension work that will be required due to the MAX grounding. Or Constant Aviation who just announced the consolidation back to Cleveland

Here are the load factors for WN nonstop flights out of CLE in October 2019:
CLE-ATL - 85.14%
CLE-BNA - 83.52%
CLE-BWI - 78.76%
CLE-DAL - 90.47%
CLE-DEN - 87.67%
CLE-LAS - 91.94%
CLE-MCO - 93.05%
CLE-MDW - 77.75%
CLE-MKE - 63.32%
CLE-PHX - 93.85%
CLE-STL - 81.41%
CLE-TPA - 90.68%

^ The load on CLE-DAL is amazing, considering it's one flight a week on Sundays at not-too-great times. Another clue that maybe WN knows what they are doing.

avtcle wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Why would they close the Express maintenance facilities? There are numerous examples of maintenance operations in small stations - eg Delta in Duluth MN. Plus - it's not like there is a surplus of mechanics out there to let a bunch go. Also - I expect DL/AA to fill replace UA on these routes.

When I was booking travel for my employer (and back in the days of UA monopoly) $1,000 OW fares to DCA/LGA/BOS were common. Chicago must have freaked out when airfares were cut by 60 % as soon as UA had any price competition.

According to the employee notice, their entire operation in Cleveland will be shut down.

Maybe CLE will use the space for the master plan!!

fun2fly wrote:

avtcle wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Why would they close the Express maintenance facilities? There are numerous examples of maintenance operations in small stations - eg Delta in Duluth MN. Plus - it's not like there is a surplus of mechanics out there to let a bunch go. Also - I expect DL/AA to fill replace UA on these routes.

When I was booking travel for my employer (and back in the days of UA monopoly) $1,000 OW fares to DCA/LGA/BOS were common. Chicago must have freaked out when airfares were cut by 60 % as soon as UA had any price competition.

According to the employee notice, their entire operation in Cleveland will be shut down.

Maybe CLE will use the space for the master plan!!

VERY possible. Would give Cleveland ample room to expand concourse A, which desperately needs a better/larger customs and border protection zone that exits on the non-secure side of the airport. This would give them that opportunity.

I say go big or go home. We don't need to renovate A. We need to tear down and build a completely new terminal! No more band-aids.

Cleveland doesn’t have the space to tear down facilities. There isn’t enough room to put the flights. If anything they’d have to add an expansion first and then tear down and rebuild in increments. There just isn’t enough room to relocate airlines/passengers.

I always thought the Express hangar could be knocked down and a small 4/5 gate customs area could be built , could build a short walkway to main concourse and it already has a parking lot for local traffic !

My WAG - the new terminal will be built closer to 237 and perpendicular with Concourse D. Temporarily connect it to the existing terminal and build a concourse at a 45 degree angle from C and B )in that vast concrete pad where the old fire station was. Reopen D and the new concourse. Tear down C and rebuild with a copy of D. When thats done, tear down A and B and the old terminal. Kinda like the LGA rebuild.

avtcle wrote:

Cleveland doesn’t have the space to tear down facilities. There isn’t enough room to put the flights. If anything they’d have to add an expansion first and then tear down and rebuild in increments. There just isn’t enough room to relocate airlines/passengers.

It's possible to build in stages.

1. Use C/D.
2. Tear down A/B.
3. Build portion of new terminal on side of A/B.
4. Use portion of new terminal
5. Tear down C/D.
6. Complete new terminal.
7. Any unused space becomes hotels/parking.

And yes, D would need some work to reopen. But trust me, it's not in as bad of shape as many of you think. They would probably have to use every other gate though to fit the larger a/c.

ncflyer wrote:

Can’t tell if you believe that or are being sarcastic. This week UA is running 3 CRJs to IAD each day. That’s it. Winter doldrums. They’ll use that as a point of comparison to say they’re adding 250 seats!

sarcastic

I see we are getting a few Central American diversions tonight from Ohare. Do they make the passengers remain onboard or will they clear them thru Customs here?

This winter has been brutal for hubs in MSP/DEN/Chicago. Not to jinx things but CLE has gotten 8 inches of snow this year.

New United schedule from CLE is active.
CLE-LGA/DCA gone after March 29th.

Beginning June 5 (likely not starting till June because that when the MAX is SUPPOSED to come back):

CLE-EWR switches from 2 daily mainline and 5 daily regional to 4 daily mainline and 3 daily regional. A net gain in seats for the market.

CLE-IAD switches from 1 daily mainline and 3 daily regional to 4 daily mainline. A net gain in seats for the market.

United is expanding its nonstop flights from Cleveland to Florida:

CLE-RSW: Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 7, 2020

CLE-FLL: Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 7, 2020

CLE-TPA: Switches from regional (E175) to mainline (B737) eff. May 9, 2020. Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 2, 2020.

CLE-MCO: 2nd daily weekend flight extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 2, 2020.

In west coast news:

CLE-LAX switches from 2x daily to 3x daily eff. June 5, 2020. 2x daily extended through fall, winter 2020, originally 1x daily.

CLE-SFO 2x daily extended through fall, winter 2020. Originally 1x daily.

avtcle wrote:

New United schedule from CLE is active.
CLE-LGA/DCA gone after March 29th.

Beginning June 5 (likely not starting till June because that when the MAX is SUPPOSED to come back):

CLE-EWR switches from 2 daily mainline and 5 daily regional to 4 daily mainline and 3 daily regional. A net gain in seats for the market.

CLE-IAD switches from 1 daily mainline and 3 daily regional to 4 daily mainline. A net gain in seats for the market.

EWR: 1x739, 2x738, 1x73G + 1xERJ + 2xE170 is a net increase vs. 2019.
IAD: 1x739, 1x738, 2x73G I believe IAD was mainline last summer, or at least 3 of 4 were with a few of them being 739's when I was on them. I'm not sure of how many extra seats are there. Was thinking they'd also go 5x. The 2:53 PM departure misses a good number of TATL connections making IAD not that appealing for some if you have to take the next earliest flight at 10:15AM. A noon/1PM departure would have helped.

avtcle wrote:

United is expanding its nonstop flights from Cleveland to Florida:

CLE-RSW: Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 7, 2020

CLE-FLL: Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 7, 2020

CLE-TPA: Switches from regional (E175) to mainline (B737) eff. May 9, 2020. Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 2, 2020.

CLE-MCO: 2nd daily weekend flight extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 2, 2020.

In west coast news:

CLE-LAX switches from 2x daily to 3x daily eff. June 5, 2020. 2x daily extended through fall, winter 2020, originally 1x daily.

CLE-SFO 2x daily extended through fall, winter 2020. Originally 1x daily.

CLE-LAX is showing 2x daily on my end

You’re correct. Gone since I checked last night. Wonder why? There’s no way they could’ve had a positive indication of bookings by now, and their load on CLE-LAX, May-August 2019 was 96%.

United is typically successful in pushing ULCCs off their hub routes but Spirit has got a good thing going on CLE-LAX.

avtcle wrote:

You’re correct. Gone since I checked last night. Wonder why? There’s no way they could’ve had a positive indication of bookings by now, and their load on CLE-LAX, May-August 2019 was 96%.

United is typically successful in pushing ULCCs off their hub routes but Spirit has got a good thing going on CLE-LAX.

May-August was 92.7% on CLE-LAX, LAX-CLE was higher at 94.4% according to my numbers



I will point out that CLE-LAX isn't as strong yield wise compared to some other markets from CLE on UA

I use aviationdb.com for all of my stat info since the FAA website overwhelms me

I must’ve added passengers/seats incorrectly when I averaged if that is the correct figure as there stats run monthly only — 92%, 96%

But to your point, thats the Spirit effect on LAX from CLE. All the better for us. SFO not so much, as that’s a seasonal 3x weekly market for Frontier that United has maintained relative control of.

avtcle wrote:

Cleveland doesn’t have the space to tear down facilities. There isn’t enough room to put the flights. If anything they’d have to add an expansion first and then tear down and rebuild in increments. There just isn’t enough room to relocate airlines/passengers.

Dude, LaGuardia doesn’t have room to blow a fart but they’re still completely rebuilding everything. It’s more than do-able; you could even use D as a temporary terminal.

N766UA wrote:

avtcle wrote:

Cleveland doesn’t have the space to tear down facilities. There isn’t enough room to put the flights. If anything they’d have to add an expansion first and then tear down and rebuild in increments. There just isn’t enough room to relocate airlines/passengers.

Dude, LaGuardia doesn’t have room to blow a fart but they’re still completely rebuilding everything. It’s more than do-able; you could even use D as a temporary terminal.

Good point.

Midwestindy wrote:

avtcle wrote:

You’re correct. Gone since I checked last night. Wonder why? There’s no way they could’ve had a positive indication of bookings by now, and their load on CLE-LAX, May-August 2019 was 96%.

United is typically successful in pushing ULCCs off their hub routes but Spirit has got a good thing going on CLE-LAX.

May-August was 92.7% on CLE-LAX, LAX-CLE was higher at 94.4% according to my numbers



I will point out that CLE-LAX isn't as strong yield wise compared to some other markets from CLE on UA

Man I'd like to see a comparable chart for places like IND, PIT, or CVG

PIT only has Spirit to LAX. You think another carrier would’ve hopped into that market by now. ^

joeman wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

avtcle wrote:

You’re correct. Gone since I checked last night. Wonder why? There’s no way they could’ve had a positive indication of bookings by now, and their load on CLE-LAX, May-August 2019 was 96%.

United is typically successful in pushing ULCCs off their hub routes but Spirit has got a good thing going on CLE-LAX.

May-August was 92.7% on CLE-LAX, LAX-CLE was higher at 94.4% according to my numbers



I will point out that CLE-LAX isn't as strong yield wise compared to some other markets from CLE on UA

Man I'd like to see a comparable chart for places like IND, PIT, or CVG

This is from Q2, only accounting for local passengers

avtcle wrote:

PIT only has Spirit to LAX. You think another carrier would’ve hopped into that market by now. ^

WN & AA have both tried it recently, and with NK 2x daily in a TCON market of that size, any legacy carrier will have a very difficult time being successful.

DL going to 8x CLE>DTW in Aug/Sep on the CR9 is a large bump in capacity especially since there really isn't much O&D like other hub flights.

avtcle wrote:

United is expanding its nonstop flights from Cleveland to Florida:

CLE-RSW: Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 7, 2020

CLE-FLL: Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 7, 2020

CLE-TPA: Switches from regional (E175) to mainline (B737) eff. May 9, 2020. Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 2, 2020.

CLE-MCO: 2nd daily weekend flight extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 2, 2020.

In west coast news:

CLE-LAX switches from 2x daily to 3x daily eff. June 5, 2020. 2x daily extended through fall, winter 2020, originally 1x daily.

CLE-SFO 2x daily extended through fall, winter 2020. Originally 1x daily.

Why does United end their Florida routes right when school is out and the summer vacations begin?

Yes— I was surprised by that as well... 8 daily on a flight that’s 15 minutes! Will probably open up some new connection options.

pmanni1 wrote:

avtcle wrote:

United is expanding its nonstop flights from Cleveland to Florida:

CLE-RSW: Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 7, 2020

CLE-FLL: Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 7, 2020

CLE-TPA: Switches from regional (E175) to mainline (B737) eff. May 9, 2020. Extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 2, 2020.

CLE-MCO: 2nd daily weekend flight extended through May 30, 2020, original end date of May 2, 2020.

In west coast news:

CLE-LAX switches from 2x daily to 3x daily eff. June 5, 2020. 2x daily extended through fall, winter 2020, originally 1x daily.

CLE-SFO 2x daily extended through fall, winter 2020. Originally 1x daily.

Why does United end their Florida routes right when school is out and the summer vacations begin?

This is the longest I’ve seen FLL/RSW/TPA run for since 2015. It looks like they might be testing whether or not they can run these routes all year. United has always seen better loads on these routes in the winter, so I’d imagine that’s why they don’t run them in the summer. MCO is year round.

fun2fly wrote:

DL going to 8x CLE>DTW in Aug/Sep on the CR9 is a large bump in capacity especially since there really isn't much O&D like other hub flights.

It used to be my contention that CO's CLE hub took more connecting traffic from DL in DTW than it did from UA in ORD. After the UA actions of 2014, I thought I could *almost* prove my theory with 2015 and '16 data, but later years muddied all comparisons an amateur outsider could make. Still, DL's scheduling 8 flights to DTW is making me think I may have been right.

delta DTW CLE Is getting closer to the RDU CLT pairing on AA…haven’t counted lately but that’s an even shorter drive but has 9 or so mainline Including even A321. Great news.

Midwestindy wrote:

joeman wrote:

Midwestindy wrote:

May-August was 92.7% on CLE-LAX, LAX-CLE was higher at 94.4% according to my numbers



I will point out that CLE-LAX isn't as strong yield wise compared to some other markets from CLE on UA

Man I'd like to see a comparable chart for places like IND, PIT, or CVG

This is from Q2, only accounting for local passengers

avtcle wrote:

PIT only has Spirit to LAX. You think another carrier would’ve hopped into that market by now. ^

WN & AA have both tried it recently, and with NK 2x daily in a TCON market of that size, any legacy carrier will have a very difficult time being successful.

Thanks Midwestindy1

UA commotion aside, there are some WN summer reductions in the weekly OAG thread also. It looks as if WN's growing Max problem has finally bitten CLE schedules for ATL, BNA, MKE, and STL..

Inevitable... most all cities got cuts from their larger stations.

avtcle wrote:

Inevitable... most all cities got cuts from their larger stations.

Agree; I was surprised that CLE was spared for so long.

masseybrown wrote:

avtcle wrote:

Inevitable... most all cities got cuts from their larger stations.

Agree; I was surprised that CLE was spared for so long.

Probably because the low frequency in CLE? You can easily cut a route with 8x frequency and not notice, but you do notice a 2x going to 1.3 for example, which makes you a bit noncompetitive. Anecdotally, WN fares from CLE every time I've tried are not the lowest or anywhere near the legacy carriers and they don't seem to compete too much with the ULCC/LCC group. Booked them only once to RDU despite trying other itineraries.

I wonder what fares will do across the US when 100 +/- MAX go back into service?

fun2fly wrote:

I wonder what fares will do across the US when 100 +/- MAX go back into service?

Interesting subject. Today's Financial Times says Airbus is going to sponsor London-traded derivatives (index and options) based on air fares. I wonder if that will be a way to hedge your non-refundable tickets.

2 new restaurants open at CLE. Can't remember if this was posted already:

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local ... 1c0756c8b0

Looks like AC is upgrading to 3 E-175 flights per day to YYZ. Did not comb through schedules to see exact dates. But my flights end of June and early July are on the larger aircraft.

It looks to be effective May 4, 2020 — great news!
Finally business travelers can take advantage of first class on this route.

avtcle wrote:

It looks to be effective May 4, 2020 — great news!
Finally business travelers can take advantage of first class on this route.

From 4x CRJ x 50 seats = 200 to E75 at 76 seats x 3 flights = 226 pax it's a good 10% bump for A/C who's been the same seat count for 20 years. Not much for CLE however in the total scheme only 10k pax/year. I flew AC last earlier this month in business on a 788 YVR to YYZ and then onto the CRJ was a real downgrade. This will be a lot better for CLE pax.

Maybe with extra capacity and multiple classes they will rethink their pricing strategy. As has been discussed here, YYZ fares are absurdly high for a route that competes with driving, load factors on the low side. I haven’t priced it in a while so I might be dated.

With CLE just over 10mm pax and 4% growth in 2019, what can be expected in terms of growth for 2020? Is CLE at it's new peak? What role will the MAX grounding play in limiting that growth?

It appears the only airline that has decreased seats in Cleveland in 2019/2020 is American, and a slight decrease from Southwest heading into May because of the MAX. Allegiant is resuming flights to CHS, BNA early in February, along with increased spring frequencies to SRQ, PGD, PIE. Frontier increased seats from Cleveland this winter by 60%, Delta is running SLC through the winter unlike last year, United is increasing service to Florida in the spring and will see a net gain of seats in 2020 despite LGA, DCA cuts. Spirit is increasing service to MCO, FLL, LAS, expanding service to TPA through summer along with new service to CUN. Then of course Sun Country starting in May. CLE certainly has the potential for continued growth, and with our ever lowering fares, I think CLE will continue to pull passengers from CAK, TOL, YNG areas. CLEs ULCC operation is superior to its peers.

CLEguy wrote:

Looks like AC is upgrading to 3 E-175 flights per day to YYZ. Did not comb through schedules to see exact dates. But my flights end of June and early July are on the larger aircraft.

Nice catch! This is really a great aircraft upgauge which I'm sure will be well-received by the local market. Definitely speaks to the premium demand, particularly for connecting flights in and out of YYZ, for AC to dedicate the E75 and its premium regional product to the market. I wonder if this will be the shortest transboarder route ex-YYZ for Air Canada Express' E75s.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.clevel ... utType=amp

Delta and Frontier have largest growth in CLE in 2019

Some other article highlights:

Kennedy said the airport is working to add capacity — either in additional flights or larger airplanes — to New York LaGuardia and Reagan National in Washington, D.C., after United announced last week that it would stop flying to those airports in late March.

Transatlantic service also remains a priority. “We’ve got the numbers, the marketplace has the numbers,” he said. “The near-term threat to us and other airports our size is the lack of aircraft and crews.”
Still, he said, “I’m confident we’ll get it. Heck, we got Icelandiar and Wow to try us out.”

The airport is predicting additional growth in 2020, adding perhaps another 500,000 to 600,000 seats, for another year of 4-5% growth.

Kennedy said he is looking forward to another strong year in 2020. “We’ve got a couple of announcements to look forward to that will add more capacity here,” said Kennedy. “It’s a little premature to talk about it. Some of them are pretty good.”

Let the speculation on what Kennedy might be referring to begin…

Not speculation but a question for you route planning folks. UA withdraws two routes. Is there really work for the airport route planning team to do to fill the void, or does the free market work it’s magic. If UA carried say 175 a day to DCA isn’t it obvious to AA that 3xCRJs won’t cut it, without a lick of work by the airport?

ncflyer wrote:

Let the speculation on what Kennedy might be referring to begin…

Not speculation but a question for you route planning folks. UA withdraws two routes. Is there really work for the airport route planning team to do to fill the void, or does the free market work it’s magic. If UA carried say 175 a day to DCA isn’t it obvious to AA that 3xCRJs won’t cut it, without a lick of work by the airport?

I would definitely say that's a good assumption. For the government fiscal year 2019 (Oct 1, 2019 - Sep 30), there were 11,109 passengers on the CLE-DCA city pair for government travel. (source - https://www.gsa.gov/travel/plan-book/tr ... rogram-cpp), and I would further assume that most of those people were flying United since United possesed (and currently possesses) the contract for the city pair. If American gets the contract for the next fiscal year (which is likely), it will definitely result in increased passenger count on their flights. More flights on the similar aircraft will be required, or larger aircraft. I don't know enough about how slots are allocated, but I wonder if it's easier for them to keep the number of flights the same but utilize larger aircraft. I'm hoping for that scenario so I don't have to use gate 35X as often!

avtcle wrote:

The airport is predicting additional growth in 2020, adding perhaps another 500,000 to 600,000 seats, for another year of 4-5% growth.

Kennedy said he is looking forward to another strong year in 2020. “We’ve got a couple of announcements to look forward to that will add more capacity here,” said Kennedy. “It’s a little premature to talk about it. Some of them are pretty good.”

While upgauging is certainly possible, its more fun to consider new routes. But its not that much: Some rough math. 500k-600k new seats at 200 seats per plane at 365 days/yr divided by 2 (for both directions) is only 3 to 4 new flights a day.

Of course if one of those 3 or 4 is TATL, that's a big deal, but Kennedy's quote does not seem to suggest that with the comment, "Some of them are pretty good.” So, maybe:

AS or DL to SEA
more daily F9 service over 3-4x weekly
more AA to DCA
more and/or upgauges on AA and DL to LGA
WN to HOU?

ncflyer wrote:

Let the speculation on what Kennedy might be referring to begin…

Not speculation but a question for you route planning folks. UA withdraws two routes. Is there really work for the airport route planning team to do to fill the void, or does the free market work it’s magic. If UA carried say 175 a day to DCA isn’t it obvious to AA that 3xCRJs won’t cut it, without a lick of work by the airport?

It is certainly obvious to the local station managers and it's their job to report it to AA HQS. Whether the HQS folks do anything is another matter.

I remember a CO supervisor in the 90s in BWI saying, when a 735 to CLE was oversold every night, "we told them we needed more seats". But in CLE a CO manager told me CO didn't want to carry more pax at the very low WN-level fares then being charged no matter what the demand was.

But CLE-DCA will probably be a monopoly for AA and my guess is they will cheerfully add seats at 65 cents a mile, approximately what the current fare is.

greenair727 wrote:

avtcle wrote:

The airport is predicting additional growth in 2020, adding perhaps another 500,000 to 600,000 seats, for another year of 4-5% growth.

Kennedy said he is looking forward to another strong year in 2020. “We’ve got a couple of announcements to look forward to that will add more capacity here,” said Kennedy. “It’s a little premature to talk about it. Some of them are pretty good.”

While upgauging is certainly possible, its more fun to consider new routes. But its not that much: Some rough math. 500k-600k new seats at 200 seats per plane at 365 days/yr divided by 2 (for both directions) is only 3 to 4 new flights a day.

Of course if one of those 3 or 4 is TATL, that's a big deal, but Kennedy's quote does not seem to suggest that with the comment, "Some of them are pretty good.” So, maybe:

AS or DL to SEA
more daily F9 service over 3-4x weekly
more AA to DCA
more and/or upgauges on AA and DL to LGA
WN to HOU?

Kennedy specifically mentions needs to the west coast so SEA, LAX and SAN come to mind, all of which have been thoroughly discussed for many years. AS seems to have success in surrounding areas so why not CLE? DL is expanding a lot, so why not CLE>SEA (except that SLC flight would be affected)? PDX, SAN are a real pipe dream. AA or DL to LAX? Potentially, but what does 1x daily do for them.

From a corporate contract perspective, DL is making a big case in CLE to be #1 choice with for CLE pax with NYC, BOS, ATL, MSP (S-W), etc. Adding SEA and LAX would firmly put them in the corporate contract lead. SEA for TPAC + LAX for obvious demand + connectivity to HI and SYD, etc. Does DL want to go full in at CLE? Sure seems easier here than fighting it out in towns with a lot of competition.

Perhaps a DL to CUN and MCO also? DL does a lot of CUN flying P2P and MCO in the past even if only weekends. Now, if they could just get rid of those MD90's for the second time at CLE.

How "late" in the year could FI announce resumption of the route if the MAX is cleared? 60 days?