greenair727 wrote:

^YUL? I assume you are joking. LHR/AMS/FRA is the goal here.

Sometimes it's better to hit a single, then to swing for the fence and strike out trying to hit a grand slam home run.

LHR is slot controlled - good luck

AMS is slot controlled - good luck

greenair727 wrote:

^YUL? I assume you are joking. LHR/AMS/FRA is the goal here.

It's not such a far-fetched idea. That's how PIT has service to YUL. Of course, a true transatlantic flight on a major carrier should be the primary goal of any funds CLE gets from this pot of state money, probably further subsidized by local corporate cotributions.

And FRA is a hub that overflies London and Paris, served by a carrier that doesn’t have a great aircraft for CLE and that already serves DTW— more good luck!

If you are seriously pushing YUL and others think it is reasonable, why not just try instead for Indianapolis or Erie, PA and throw the towel in? There's no way Columbus is aiming so low and once they get a TATL route, it will be 100x harder for CLE to get one as that airline will expect people from CLE to drive down to CMH. And once Columbus gets the route, their economy will grow notably making it EVEN harder for CLE to compete as a city and to gain a route. The concern is not that $4M is too low, is that there are not clear parameters on how that money will be given to help CLE vs. Columbus, as state organizations/funds always favor columbus over Cleveland (and yes, I know, JobsOhio is "private" though funded with state liquor tax).

CLEguy wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

^YUL? I assume you are joking. LHR/AMS/FRA is the goal here.

It's not such a far-fetched idea. That's how PIT has service to YUL. Of course, a true transatlantic flight on a major carrier should be the primary goal of any funds CLE gets from this pot of state money, probably further subsidized by local corporate cotributions.

PIT invested just 100,000 in actual funds to secure the service and it runs in the mid 80's for a load factor ...

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/trans ... 1711290114

I'd say a great bang for the buck

A big selling point to AC to serve PIT was ALCOA ... The Cleveland area has two huge ALCOA, operations ... I'm not even counting any possible tourists destinations within a 90 minute drive of CLE either for Quebec citizens to visit and see.

Service to YUL is definitely achievable for a very low cost

IIRC PIT only offered $50,000 in marketing support and waived landing fees for YUL service. As stated Alcoa was a large factor as was Bombardier.


Regarding the funds put up by Ohio, this CLE vs. CMH and parameters how funds should be divided is a silly notion. It is not the state’s place to play favorites. Let the airline that bites decide which one they want to serve. If CMH comes out on top so be it.

flyPIT wrote:

IIRC PIT only offered $50,000 in marketing support and waived landing fees for YUL service. As stated Alcoa was a large factor as was Bombardier.


Regarding the funds put up by Ohio, this CLE vs. CMH and parameters how funds should be divided is a silly notion. It is not the state’s place to play favorites. Let the airline that bites decide which one they want to serve. If CMH comes out on top so be it.

The pool of funds is for additional viable air service of any kind ...not just overseas or trans border service.

OHIO is pragmatic and if they could get 15 or 20 new viable city pairs state wide .... they would take it ... if it's successful .. more funds will flow

crjflyboy wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

^YUL? I assume you are joking. LHR/AMS/FRA is the goal here.

Sometimes it's better to hit a single, then to swing for the fence and strike out trying to hit a grand slam home run.

LHR is slot controlled - good luck

AMS is slot controlled - good luck

Why the sarcasm? CLE used to have LHR and PIT had AMS and now LHR. It's not far fetched. I'm encouraged the Governor is backing this funding and we could see some changes. As noted above, it is also for domestic service so maybe AS finally to SEA and AC to YUL like PIT did. That would be a good start for 2020 and 2021 for TATL as it's late. We also should not forget FI might come back (in 2020?) if the MAX ever flies.

What airlines should CLE approach for the flight to Europe? One could argue that the CLE market has shown that it will support a low cost carrier in droves. You might get them for less of a subsidy than a high cost Legacy.

fun2fly wrote:

crjflyboy wrote:

greenair727 wrote:

^YUL? I assume you are joking. LHR/AMS/FRA is the goal here.

Sometimes it's better to hit a single, then to swing for the fence and strike out trying to hit a grand slam home run.

LHR is slot controlled - good luck

AMS is slot controlled - good luck

Why the sarcasm? CLE used to have LHR and PIT had AMS and now LHR. It's not far fetched. I'm encouraged the Governor is backing this funding and we could see some changes. As noted above, it is also for domestic service so maybe AS finally to SEA and AC to YUL like PIT did. That would be a good start for 2020 and 2021 for TATL as it's late. We also should not forget FI might come back (in 2020?) if the MAX ever flies.

The response was directed at greenair727 who made the remark why don't we get service to Erie ... who said the only goal is his vision

Beginning June 4, AA increasing to 4x daily to DCA and upgauging three of four flights (article also discusses LGA upgauges):

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... -cuts.html

SgtBarone wrote:

Beginning June 4, AA increasing to 4x daily to DCA and upgauging three of four flights (article also discusses LGA upgauges):

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... -cuts.html

The 3 out of 4 upgaging is nice - almost eliminating Gate 35X. It did figure that AA would add a 4th flight; there was no way they could accommodate all UA's traffic on 3 50-seaters even if both airlines were running at 65% load factors. It still may be a squeeze.

Once the Max's are flying again, we'll see if WN bumps their BWI schedule back up to 4.

Whats the current equipment and what is make up of the four June flights? So is the entirety of UA's withdrawal from LGA and DCA met by new capacity from AA (and nothing by DL or anyone else)?

Ultimate Air is adding a 3rd daily frequency on BKL-LUK. The Mid-day flight is new, starting 16March

Morning
Departs Lunken: 6:45 a.m.
Arrives Cleveland: 7:27 a.m.
Departs Cleveland: 7:55 a.m.
Arrives Lunken: 8:27 a.m.

Midday
Departs Lunken: 11:45 a.m.
Arrives Cleveland: 12:40 p.m.
Departs Cleveland: 1:10 p.m.
Arrives Lunken: 2:05 p.m.

Evening
Departs Lunken: 5:30 p.m.
Arrives Cleveland: 6:12 p.m.
Departs Cleveland: 6:35 p.m.
Arrives Lunken: 7:17 p.m.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... pands.html

Great to see AA add more frequency on CLE-DCA and CLE-LGA and upgrade the jets from E140s to CRJ700s and E-175s.

flyPIT wrote:

IIRC PIT only offered $50,000 in marketing support and waived landing fees for YUL service. As stated Alcoa was a large factor as was Bombardier.


Regarding the funds put up by Ohio, this CLE vs. CMH and parameters how funds should be divided is a silly notion. It is not the state’s place to play favorites. Let the airline that bites decide which one they want to serve. If CMH comes out on top so be it.

Montreal metro population is 4.2 million people

https://populationstat.com/canada/montreal

What other community within a 90 minute flight of CLE with this size does CLE not serve ?

plinth857 wrote:

jplatts wrote:

There are still a few more nonstop routes that could be added by WN out of CLE such as CLE-AUS, CLE-HOU, CLE-MCI, CLE-LAX, and CLE-SAN, and I have also previously mentioned that WN was considering adding CLE-HOU nonstop service back in October 2017. WN could also increase CLE-DAL, CLE-FLL, CLE-LAS, and CLE-MCO to daily nonstop service.

I have also mentioned NK possibly adding CLE-IAH nonstop service with IAH being one of the biggest NK stations that NK doesn't currently serve nonstop from CLE.

I wonder if AA will bring DFW back to five flights for the summer. If not, I really don't know why WN doesn't increase CLE-DAL to daily. Right now, there are only three nonstops between Cleveland and Dallas, and one of them is on a regional jet. I know Spirit operates their seasonal flights there starting in late April, but capacity seems unusually low. This is the city pair I fly most often, and I would love to have Southwest as an option.

Just visiting this thread for the first time, so I apologize if this has been answered before. Any increase problem for WN rests with DAL being full; the sweetheart deal that effectively locked down DAL for WN also limited them to 18 gates. They have demands coming in from all over for more flights, but they are locked in at 195 daily flights from 18 gates (since January, 2019, when the agreement took effect involving DL complaint.) I noticed CLE's load factor to DAL is high (90+), so I'd assume you're on the short list, but the lack of slots is the problem.

I find it interesting that since the first of the year UA has only operated 3 daily 50 seaters to IAD.At one time recently UA had some fanfare about IAD replacing EWR for east coast connections— with only 3 50 seaters????

Looks like scheduled to resume with 4 flights including one mainline on 2/17. Indy Pittsburgh and Columbus have not such drastic reductions in the dead of winter. Cleveland demand in the dead of winter drops so much relative to other markets apparently. There are other somewhat similar stories— DFW on AA is reduced in clevelsnd more than other markets in the winter. I find it a little odd can’t really explain why cleveland is different.

Just for fun, I picked a random day in summer 7/6/20 and compared the service to NYC and WAS (flights and seats):

CLE-NYC Service
7/6/20

DL
LGA 5x CRJ900 380
JFK 4x CRJ900 304
Total 684
AA
LGA 4x E175 304
JFK 2x E140 88
Total 392

UA
EWR 1x 737, 2x 738, 1x 739, 1x E145, 1x E170, 1x E175 797
Total 797

CLE-WAS Service
7/6/20

UA
IAD 3x 737, 1x 738 532
Total 532
AA
DCA 2x E175, 1 CRJ700, 1 CRJ200 278
Total 278

greenair727 wrote:

Ultimate Air is adding a 3rd daily frequency on BKL-LUK. The Mid-day flight is new, starting 16March

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... pands.html

Great news. I was a little worried about them for a while. Cheap fuel was no doubt a help last year and, short of some new war, there doesn't seem to be a price rise in sight.

CLEguy wrote:

Just for fun, I picked a random day in summer 7/6/20 and compared the service to NYC and WAS (flights and seats):

CLE-NYC Service
7/6/20

DL
LGA 5x CRJ900 380
JFK 4x CRJ900 304
Total 684
AA
LGA 4x E175 304
JFK 2x E140 88
Total 392

UA
EWR 1x 737, 2x 738, 1x 739, 1x E145, 1x E170, 1x E175 797
Total 797

CLE-WAS Service
7/6/20

UA
IAD 3x 737, 1x 738 532
Total 532
AA
DCA 2x E175, 1 CRJ700, 1 CRJ200 278
Total 278

Forgot to include BWI

WN
BWI 3x 737 429
Total 429

According to today's OAG thread AA's 3-a-day to Dallas schedule rolls on into May. Ok, it has to be at least partly MAX-driven; but I wonder if AA isn't trying to force-feed their ORD hub with CLE-west traffic by limiting alternatives. The ORD hub is probably their most competitive situation.

The coming DCA monopoly should help win over some FF business fliers; that has to be a very important monopoly for AA's Cleveland plans.

To discredit all those rumors about United pulling out of all non-hub flying from Cleveland: United is increasing CLE-MCO/RSW to 2x daily in March. CLE-FLL/RSW season has been extended through May 30th, and both routes are already bookable in United’s system for next winter.

avtcle wrote:

It looks to be effective May 4, 2020 — great news!
Finally business travelers can take advantage of first class on this route.

Looks like they pushed it back to July 1st now. Flights back to the CRJ

As part of Cuyahoga County’s incentive package for Sherwin-Williams is this item:

The county agrees to work in “good faith” with the Sherwin-Williams to advance unspecified improvement plans at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, and will report back to Sherwin-Williams about those plans.

Wonder what this might entail.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/02/ ... owers.html

MohawkWeekend wrote:

What airlines should CLE approach for the flight to Europe? One could argue that the CLE market has shown that it will support a low cost carrier in droves. You might get them for less of a subsidy than a high cost Legacy.

ICELAND

https://www.icelandair.com/flights/

First time I can ever recall a corporation or civic leader putting an iota of pressure on improving the airport, however gentle that pressure may be. It’s a start. (I’m not including the Plain Dealer, which has been raising the issue on many occasions on its editorial pages).

CLEguy wrote:

As part of Cuyahoga County’s incentive package for Sherwin-Williams is this item:

The county agrees to work in “good faith” with the Sherwin-Williams to advance unspecified improvement plans at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, and will report back to Sherwin-Williams about those plans.

Wonder what this might entail.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/02/ ... owers.html

The county has zero jurisdiction over the airport making it even more interesting. And the county has a long history of dysfunction including the current administration. I’m just glad to see a corporation taking a bit of a public stand.

The county could help underwrite new air services. I don’t believe there is any prohibition to contributing to a profit guarantee pool or similar arrangement that might induce an airline to operate a new route.

If S-W. needs a hangar, the Expressjet hangar will soon be available.

masseybrown wrote:

If S-W. needs a hangar, the Expressjet hangar will soon be available.

Shouldn't this be torn down for the new terminal long term?

Where is SW's big European destination? From the investor relations map, a ton of locations in the UK, Italy, etc. It always comes back to LHR being a great connection point, although DUB could work.

What's surprising to me is that SW doesn't have their own hanger on the field. They fly out of Atlantic. Yet Parker-Hannifan has their own hanger and so does Key Bank.

mbm3 wrote:

CLEguy wrote:

As part of Cuyahoga County’s incentive package for Sherwin-Williams is this item:

The county agrees to work in “good faith” with the Sherwin-Williams to advance unspecified improvement plans at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, and will report back to Sherwin-Williams about those plans.

Wonder what this might entail.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/02/ ... owers.html

It's interesting - and a good thing - that the County is getting involved with improvements at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport as they seem to have a better vision than the City of Cleveland. I would assume this involves the long-overdue move of customs/immigrations out of grandma's basement to a location with direct landside access. Or does S-W have a small fleet of corporate jets that might need a hangar?

Last I heard, Sherwin has 3 private jets they fly out of Atlantic. However, they do A LOT of commerical flying, especially their engineers. I imagine they are trying to improve the travel situation for those people due to the high volume of travel they do throughout the year.

Cleveland Load Factors from October 2019 are here:

Frontier Airlines
CLE-MCO: 83%
CLE-RSW: 95%
CLE-MIA: 62%
CLE-FLL: 59% (Yikes. Can't see FLL/MIA coming back)
CLE-MSP: 63% (Only 3 departures for MSP/RDU)
CLE-RDU: 67%
CLE-TPA: 84%
CLE-CHS: 73% (Surprised at this -- especially month after hurricane)
CLE-LAS: 92%
CLE-PHX: 92%
CLE-DEN: 82%
CLE-SRQ: 90%
CLE-CUN: 87%
CLE-PUJ: 61% (Wow! What a drop from June. Staying year round this year, though!)

United Airlines
CLE-MCO: 88%
CLE-DEN: 90%
CLE-LAX: 88%
CLE-SFO: 88%
CLE-ORD: 82%
CLE-LGA: 68%
CLE-IAH: 83%
CLE-EWR: 74%
CLE-DCA: 71%
CLE-CUN: 85%

Spirit Airlines
CLE-MCO: 91%
CLE-RSW: 97%
CLE-DFW: 91%
CLE-TPA: 84%
CLE-BOS: 89%
CLE-LAS: 90%
CLE-PHX: 92%
CLE-LAX: 90%
CLE-MYR: 76%
CLE-MSY: 88%
CLE-ATL: 91%

Southwest Airlines
CLE-MCO: 88%
CLE-TPA: 88%
CLE-LAS: 91%
CLE-DEN: 86%
CLE-MDW: 80%
CLE-MKE: 68%
CLE-DAL: 86%
CLE-BWI: 82%
CLE-BNA: 82%
CLE-STL: 80%
CLE-PHX: 92%
CLE-ATL: 90%

Delta Airlines
CLE-RDU: 65%
CLE-BOS: 75%
CLE-MSP: 87%
CLE-LGA: 72%
CLE-JFK: 75%
CLE-SLC: 89%
CLE-ATL: 84%
CLE-DTW: 86%

American Airlines
CLE-DFW: 75%
CLE-MIA: 85%
CLE-ORD: 77%
CLE-LGA: 80%
CLE-JFK: 74%
CLE-DCA: 68%
CLE-CLT: 86%
CLE-PHL: 81%

JetBlue Airways
CLE-BOS: 86%
CLE-FLL: 88%

Allegiant Air
CLE-SRQ: 88%
CLE-PGD: 93%
CLE-PIE: 89%
CLE-SAV: 77%

Let me know if I've missed any!

Thank you! I’m curious about FLL on NK since F9 has such low loads yet NK adding seats to the market. Also curious about IAD since UA really cuts seats in January. Is the fall a leading indicator of light demand?

I can see why there’s not a complete backfill of seats to LGA and DCA with UAs pullback. Not like the existing carriers are killing it.

I’m not sure what happened with my NK numbers but I’m pretty sure I intended Spirt CLE-PHX to be CLE-FLL.

Spirit CLE-FLL: 82%

United CLE-IAD: 87%

[twoid][/twoid]

avtcle wrote:

I’m not sure what happened with my NK numbers but I’m pretty sure I intended Spirt CLE-PHX to be CLE-FLL.

Spirit CLE-FLL: 82%

United CLE-IAD: 87%

Do you have the CLE-BDL numbers for DL?

David Neeleman, founder of JetBlue, finally filed papers for his new airline, formerly called Moxy, now called Breeze. According to some reports about Moxy, it looks like the airline targeted secondary airports in cities, like BKL. It would be great to see this new carrier at Burke. From a Providence news source:

"In June 2019, GoLocal reported of then-Moxy: De facto, Providence would be the hub, “Moxy seems keen on secondary airports in the country’s biggest metro areas like Boston, New York, Washington, Chicago, San Francisco and Los Angeles. Providence, outside Boston, features prominently as an example in Moxy’s presentation.”

According to the reports, “On a map of prospective routes, it shows Providence flights to Allegiant-like airports in Florida (i.e., Orlando Sanford and St. Petersburg) and California (i.e., Oakland, San Jose, Contra Costa, Orange County, Burbank, Ontario and McClellan-Palomar, north of San Diego). Other dots from Providence include Phoenix Mesa, Rocky Mountain Airport near Denver, Concord near Charlotte, Fort Worth’s Meacham Airport and Burke Lakefront Airport in Cleveland..."

[emphasis added]

https://www.golocalprov.com/business/Ne ... oming-to-P

For Breeze, would Providence still be a hub? Burke would make a great hub.

Love the idea of Burke flights. I would note from personal observation (worked downtown for 20 years) the weather on the lakefront can be god-awful for an extended period of time in the Spring. I wonder how often Ultimate cancels due to cross winds and/or low visibility.

^BKL has ILS. For commercial operations, I can't imagine it is worse than many other airports next to water, which is many airports in the world.

greenair727 wrote:

^BKL has ILS. For commercial operations, I can't imagine it is worse than many other airports next to water, which is many airports in the world.

The only time it really matters is when BKL is on 6s. They have to do the ILS 24R circle 6L. Minimums are higher for that approach.

Does Burke only have a Cat 1 ILS on 24R and less (back course or RNAV) on 6L? Hopkins has Cat III on all runways, yes?

I know when BKL weather is bad, Ultimate just flies into CLE.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Does Burke only have a Cat 1 ILS on 24R and less (back course or RNAV) on 6L? Hopkins has Cat III on all runways, yes?

Yes Cat I only. No backcourse ILS. There is an RNAV which actually has similar minimums to the ILS.

There are no approaches to 6 (other than visuals and the aforementioned circling) because of the proximity to CLE. Even when both airports are on 6s, larger aircraft typically needs approval into CLE Tower's airspace to complete the circling approach. It mostly applies to 737s, 757s, and the occasional Gulfstream or Challenger.

I recall both Wright and Midway Airlines operated in BKL before they install the one ILS system. That must have caused some grey hairs for the crews.

avtcle wrote:

I know when BKL weather is bad, Ultimate just flies into CLE.

How often does this happen? And where do pax deplane? You can't mix unscreened pax into the main, secure side of the terminal where all the gates are.

greenair727 wrote:

avtcle wrote:

I know when BKL weather is bad, Ultimate just flies into CLE.

How often does this happen? And where do pax deplane? You can't mix unscreened pax into the main, secure side of the terminal where all the gates are.

Not often. When it does, Ultimate goes to Atlantic.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Hopkins has Cat III on all runways, yes?

Cat III on 6L/24R, Cat II on 6R/24Land ILS on 10/28.

https://www.airnav.com/airport/KCLE

How much does it cost to do one cat III system for one runway at CLE for instance?