CleSyrRoc wrote:

How much does it cost to do one cat III system for one runway at CLE for instance?

Also, could we put a Cat IIIC on BKL 6L to avoid going around to 24R?

According to the diagrams I've seen, a middle marker is 3000 to 6000 feet from the threshold. That might be in the middle of Cleveland Harbor.

3000' would be a little north of Browns Stadium, about 400' off the shore; 6,000' would be around the eastern side of the mouth of the Cuyahoga. Are you saying we can't construct a marker because its in the water? That shouldn't be an issue.

Maybe they could put it on the break wall. Not sure if the signal can be modified to be off set from the break wall though. I guess you could put one on the old USCG station at the mouth of the Cuyahoga. Otherwise they would have to put something in the channel which would float. During the winter, the ice would push it around. For example - the USCG pulls all the navigation buoys out of the water in the winter for that reason.

Not sure how Boston and LGA do theirs - I looked on the Google map of JFK and saw that there is actually land (looks like marshes) out to the east where they must have their transmitters.

Actually - looking at Google maps of Cleveland Harbor again, it looks like the pier wall of the cargo terminal north of Browns Stadium is only a hundred feet or so off the centerline of 6L. That would work better than the break wall or the old USCG station.

greenair727 wrote:

CleSyrRoc wrote:

How much does it cost to do one cat III system for one runway at CLE for instance?

Also, could we put a Cat IIIC on BKL 6L to avoid going around to 24R?

There will never be an approach to 6s at BKL. It directly conflicts with CLE traffic, no matter the configuration. It's a moot point.

Also, like I said before, RNAV approaches have similar minimums and don't require the maintenance and ground based equipment that an ILS has.

So if BKL were to install an approach to 6 (They won't), it would almost definitely be an RNAV.

If you owned an airline (say Breeze), would you start service to BKL if you didn't have assurances that you could get in when the weather got really bad? I always thought that is why you don't see all the downtown corporations keep their jets at BKL (e.g. Sherwin Williams and way back when BP). But I could be wrong.

I wonder how the NYC area manages 4 airports with conflicting approaches.

Not in my wheelhouse to understand all the talk about approaches to BKL but I think just as big of an issue is the ground traffic pattern to get to BKL. During Browns games or stadium concerts it's a nonstarter. There better be phenomenal signage to alert people to take E55th on those days, and even then approaching the airport from the east isn't so easy. I know it's only a dozen or so days a year, but imagine that's your day to use Breeze. . . .

ncflyer wrote:

Not in my wheelhouse to understand all the talk about approaches to BKL but I think just as big of an issue is the ground traffic pattern to get to BKL. During Browns games or stadium concerts it's a nonstarter. There better be phenomenal signage to alert people to take E55th on those days, and even then approaching the airport from the east isn't so easy. I know it's only a dozen or so days a year, but imagine that's your day to use Breeze. . . .

Not only is the stadium active only around a dozen times a year, it's only during a 4-5 hour segment of those days where there would be traffic issues.

Unless BKL becomes some kind of focus city or hub, the stadium's overall traffic effect would have little effect for Breeze.

This all being said, I'm impressed BKL is already on their radar. Cleveland already getting some early love. Is the runway long enough for BKL-PAE?

If it were my flight during those 4-5 hours I’d be pretty dang upset…

If Breeze comes to be at BKL, I'm thinking limited weekend flights if at all...like Ultimate. As pointed out Midway and Wright and a couple others like TAG etc managed during their day there

Ultimate doesn’t have limited service to BKL... The route is actually their most popular.

They fly BKL-LUK 15x weekly.

3x daily M/T/W/T/F they only don’t have flights on weekends.

izbtmnhd wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

Not in my wheelhouse to understand all the talk about approaches to BKL but I think just as big of an issue is the ground traffic pattern to get to BKL. During Browns games or stadium concerts it's a nonstarter. There better be phenomenal signage to alert people to take E55th on those days, and even then approaching the airport from the east isn't so easy. I know it's only a dozen or so days a year, but imagine that's your day to use Breeze. . . .

Not only is the stadium active only around a dozen times a year, it's only during a 4-5 hour segment of those days where there would be traffic issues.

Unless BKL becomes some kind of focus city or hub, the stadium's overall traffic effect would have little effect for Breeze.

This all being said, I'm impressed BKL is already on their radar. Cleveland already getting some early love. Is the runway long enough for BKL-PAE?

BKL could could certainly handle PAE, but it would depend on the equipment. I've seen flights from BKL to Germany, so Washington State is certainly within range, but not for a fully loaded 757. Regarding browns games, any taxi or uber/lyft driver worth his/her weight should know how to navigate traffic properly so that shouldn't be an issue esp when we're talking 5 or so days out of 365.

avtcle wrote:

Ultimate doesn’t have limited service to BKL... The route is actually their most popular.

They fly BKL-LUK 15x weekly.

3x daily M/T/W/T/F they only don’t have flights on weekends.

Good example of how people don't exactly articulate (guilty) what they mean and how some heated arguments over nothing occasionally occur in certain forums
I meant potential Breeze service that might limit or reduce or not at all operate weekend service....like Ultimate and like most CLE enthusiasts know

Time to close Burke and all $$$ placed to improve Hopkins. Anything that takes away from Hopkins is bad for our area. New flights to Burke is not good news for Cleveland airports.

I tend to agree.
The argument that it is a reliever for Hopkins is long gone. I believe it is still being subsidized by fees from CLE which hurts CLE's competitive position.
I just don't think Frank Jackson wants to lose those positions though. And I'm not sure the FAA would roll over like they did at Meigs.
That being said - closure should only be done if somebody with really deep pockets presents a plan to develop the land in a significant way. The last thing you want to see is it abandoned like the old aquarium located off the shoreway.

I don’t see Breeze using BKL. CLE is in itself arguably a “secondary airport” of the type that Breeze will use, in the sense that it isn’t a hub anymore. CAK might be a possibility. YNG is a dark horse candidate if Breeze thinks it can draw that far from Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Akron. All of these airports have or recently had airline service and have the infrastructure for mainline jets. I can’t even imagine where you’d put a modern TSA facility at the tiny BKL terminal, and you’d either have to evict Ultimate Air or position everything so as to give them a gate that isn’t in a sterile area. And BKL might be downtown, but it’s not much closer to any residential suburbs than CLE (except maybe the extreme eastern suburbs, but it’s farther to the southern and western ones). That’s where they’re going to draw their leisure passengers from.

Trk1 wrote:

Time to close Burke and all $$$ placed to improve Hopkins. Anything that takes away from Hopkins is bad for our area. New flights to Burke is not good news for Cleveland airports.

A similar situation existed at DFW/DAL 50 years ago when DAL was originally planned to be closed to commercial passenger air service once DFW opened, but Herb Kelleher and Rollin King founded WN back in 1971 in order to keep DAL open subsequent to the opening of DFW.

The situation has changed at both DAL and DFW since the opening of DFW Airport 46 years ago, including (a) almost all of the gates at DFW in actual use by at least one airline, (b) WN having nonstop service to destinations in 32 states out of DAL, (c) all of the gates at DAL in actual use by at least one airline, and (d) DL and AS serving DAL in addition to WN.

The mayor, taking questions after his state of the city speech, more or less rolled his eyes at the idea of developing Burke. He cited soil instability and the cost of site prep along with the availability of lots of cheaper development sites as reasons. He did admit that could change in the future as Cleveland land prices continue to increase, but said that day was a ways off. CLE, otoh, is so accessible by the Red Line trains, there really is little reason to prefer BKL, except for exceptions to the rule like Ultimate.

I wouldn’t expect Breeze to rush into the Cleveland market no matter what they say. BothJetBlue and Virgin listed tons of cities as “potential” markets when they were seeking certification and political support; but they began flying with the usual over-served suspects. It took B6 about 15 years to get around to CLE and Virgin never.

I think what is different about Breeze is that it certainly does seem to be looking at an Allegiant type strategy... after all a lot of the mangement there are former Allegiant officials. I think they full well know there’s not much room left in these larger markets for overlapping service.

Here are the load factors for WN and F9 out of CLE in November 2019:

WN
===============
CLE-ATL - 82.48%
CLE-BNA - 86.89%
CLE-BWI - 77.86%
CLE-DAL - 78.50%
CLE-DEN - 86.05%
CLE-FLL - 81.92%
CLE-LAS - 90.74%
CLE-MCO - 89.11%
CLE-MDW - 76.40%
CLE-MKE - 61.47%
CLE-PHX - 85.80%
CLE-STL - 84.57%
CLE-TPA - 69.60%

F9
===============
CLE-AUS - 94.97%
CLE-CHS - 81.16%
CLE-DEN - 79.02%
CLE-FLL - 70.84%
CLE-LAS - 84.09%
CLE-MCO - 85.16%
CLE-MIA - 72.05%
CLE-PBI - 71.10%
CLE-PHX - 93.20%
CLE-RSW - 78.40%
CLE-SRQ - 70.77%
CLE-TPA - 78.32%

This may have been pointed out already: UA is all mainline this summer to IAD and 5/7 to EWR mainline. This is an upgrade in seats as promised though personally I’m doubtful many LGA and DCA flyers will follow United out of FF loyalty.

One peculiarity is how unbalanced the EWR schedule is. CLE to EWR five frequencies before 10:20AM, roughly 575 seats. (Unbalanced in the PM EWR to CLE). Only two flights and 275 after that. This is not at all the pattern at CMH PIT IND so it’s not how the banks are configured. Anyone have any theories? The flight is also unbalanced in the winter schedule, not quite as drastically, and there are a ton of empty seats on the AM flights.

ncflyer wrote:

This may have been pointed out already: UA is all mainline this summer to IAD and 5/7 to EWR mainline. This is an upgrade in seats as promised though personally I’m doubtful many LGA and DCA flyers will follow United out of FF loyalty.

One peculiarity is how unbalanced the EWR schedule is. CLE to EWR five frequencies before 10:20AM, roughly 575 seats. (Unbalanced in the PM EWR to CLE). Only two flights and 275 after that. This is not at all the pattern at CMH PIT IND so it’s not how the banks are configured. Anyone have any theories? The flight is also unbalanced in the winter schedule, not quite as drastically, and there are a ton of empty seats on the AM flights.

It's seems ridiculous. CLE, as well as most others, have a 2PM timed to hit the early TATL bank in EWR. Now you have to leave at noon? Of course maybe they were tired of hearing about the missed connections and moved the flight to noon! IAD's is more timely at 2:53PM.

Also noticed a cut to ORD for the summer on enrila's post this weekend. MAX? Seems light.

Why are we posting about Southwest adding flights from Cleveland. It is cuts not adds till the max is reinstated. Note the MDW, STL,MKE are all cut. Mdw to 4 daily and Stl and MKE are one or less per day for the summer.

Trk1 wrote:

Why are we posting about Southwest adding flights from Cleveland. It is cuts not adds till the max is reinstated. Note the MDW, STL,MKE are all cut. Mdw to 4 daily and Stl and MKE are one or less per day for the summer.

I'm surprised CLE-MKE lasted this long as a daily flight. I couldn't believe that for a while they were running two per day.

plinth857 wrote:

Trk1 wrote:

Why are we posting about Southwest adding flights from Cleveland. It is cuts not adds till the max is reinstated. Note the MDW, STL,MKE are all cut. Mdw to 4 daily and Stl and MKE are one or less per day for the summer.

I'm surprised CLE-MKE lasted this long as a daily flight. I couldn't believe that for a while they were running two per day.

MKE is 1x daily and none on Sat. STL is 2X daily and 3X on Sat & Sun.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... minal.html

Some positive news?

Very much so. It’s important for the airport to be in front of the community on plans for a new terminal. So kudos for that.

The article makes an important point that seems to get lost— the high cost/enplanement at CLE is very much driven by UA and the sunk costs of D. I don’t think F9 and NK would be growing so well at CLE if their costs were high relative to other airports.

The comments on D are interesting. We are really getting close to when it’s fully paid off, yet Kennedy talks of potentially needing to negotiate with United on its future use.

Wow! That’s awesome news!

I can’t imagine a scenario where Concourse D isn’t revamped/reopened. It’s already a proven facility, it just will need some obvious renovations to accommodate larger planes. CLE needs more space. They have it, it’s just not being used.

CLE for UA will become nothing more then a line station soon with only hub to hub flying.

I'm so glad the option of a new terminal is finally being widely discussed. It's the only way to build consensus around the need to "go big" in finally giving CLE a modern, functional terminal and more pleasant and efficient passenger experience. The airfield is essentially set for many years to come, now it's landside's turn.

As to renovating and reopening Concourse D, doesn't UA still have 7 years left to pay? I'm sure if the city really wanted it for a needed purpose, they could negotiate a deal with UA. I could certainly see it being repurposed at least as an interim terminal as the central terminal area is totally rebuilt. I'm looking forward to seeing what options come out of the Master Plan.

I always enjoy reading Susan Glaser's writing.

cle757 wrote:

CLE for UA will become nothing more then a line station soon with only hub to hub flying.

By source or just assumption?

I don’t think they’ll exit the Florida markets. If they weren’t doing well they wouldn’t be being expanded.

-RSW goes 2x daily starting in March and it’s season was extended through May 30th
-FLL goes 8x weekly in April and it’s season was extended through May 30th
-TPA goes mainline starting May 9th and it’s season was extended through May 30th
-MCO 8x weekly was extended through May 30th
-FLL & RSW have already been reloaded in the schedule for winter 2020/2021.

Even if they build a brand new, billion dollar terminal, they’ll still be playing “Hey There, Delilah” in it.

D is sure a tough decision. On the one hand it is the newest building and fairly modern (though it's pushing 25 years old-- it's all relative compared to the rest of the facility). Recking it down would cost a lot of money.

On the other hand, it's too far from the main terminal without a new tunnel, repurposing it for larger planes won't be inexpensive, we don't yet know how it will fit in to the rest of the recommended design, and the space it's on would open up possibility for more onsight parking and walkable rental car.

So I'm not as sold as AVTCLE I just hope the master facility plan consultants take a strong stand one way or the other.

I have a hard time thinking everything that ought to be done can be done for a $1B price tag. CLE needs a much bigger overhaul than PIT and that one is costing $1B. . .

N766UA wrote:

Even if they build a brand new, billion dollar terminal, they’ll still be playing “Hey There, Delilah” in it.

Yes!!! I still smile though every time that song comes on though. It's a great song!

If they do renovate the terminal and opt to not use concourse D, I’m sure they will at least use D as a temporary concourse while renovations are underway - if they renovate, there will be shortages of gate space.

UA CLE-RSW extended through June 13, 2020.
Flights are mainline 737-800.
Experimenting to make the push for year-round?

Best I can tell that’s Saturday only starting in mid May.

They ran the route Saturday only June-mid August last year so this appears to be a welcome upgrade. I’m sure they could manage to have RSW as Saturday or even weekend only in the off season. FLL, and TPA too!

Gulfstream500 wrote:

If they do renovate the terminal and opt to not use concourse D, I’m sure they will at least use D as a temporary concourse while renovations are underway - if they renovate, there will be shortages of gate space.

The gates on D are not configured for mainline aircraft, and the gate areas are not designed for holding large numbers of people. Reopening D would be expensive on so many levels. There are plenty of unused and underused gates at CLE. If CLE were to be renovated, there would simply be a lot of gate shuffling while renovations were happening.

The "reuse of concourse D at CLE" is reaching the level of such threads like "who will B6 mege with", and "when will NW retire the DC9s". The odds of D EVER getting used again is very very small.

I dunno - I think at 0630 every gate at Hopkins has a jet in front of it. I could be wrong.

Every gate and over flow parked waiting to be moved to gates for the next round of departures.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

I dunno - I think at 0630 every gate at Hopkins has a jet in front of it. I could be wrong.

This is true, however, the majority of the day, there are many, many open gates.

toltommy wrote:

Gulfstream500 wrote:

If they do renovate the terminal and opt to not use concourse D, I’m sure they will at least use D as a temporary concourse while renovations are underway - if they renovate, there will be shortages of gate space.

The gates on D are not configured for mainline aircraft, and the gate areas are not designed for holding large numbers of people. Reopening D would be expensive on so many levels. There are plenty of unused and underused gates at CLE. If CLE were to be renovated, there would simply be a lot of gate shuffling while renovations were happening.

The "reuse of concourse D at CLE" is reaching the level of such threads like "who will B6 mege with", and "when will NW retire the DC9s". The odds of D EVER getting used again is very very small.

But the concourse was designed to allow a fairly easy transfer to mainline air raft should the need arise. Remove every other gate on the jet side and you have 6 737 capable gates. Remove the fingers on the prop side and you can add 6 more 737 gates. Might not be the most spacious, but it is possible.

Since Cleveland is no longer a hub with banks of flights, it is true that gates at 10 am thru 3 pm and 6 pm to 9 pm are wide open. But closing any number of gates now would probably force airlines to cancel flights in the AM. There would be no place to load them.

Airport fire chief suspended for being AWOL. Didn't see this before:

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020 ... t-pay.html

CLEguy wrote:

Airport fire chief suspended for being AWOL. Didn't see this before:

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020 ... t-pay.html

No big surprise ... It's Cleveland

Anyone post comments on the master plan website? I did, right when the site opened in the fall, but silence so far, not even an automated response.

^Do you think they even read any comments? My feeling is that "opportunity" is just for show. If I thought it was real, I would certainly provide comments.