greenair, the fact that I didn't even get an automated response reinforces your point. I get more positive reinforcement from posting TripAdvisor reviews!

Speaking of comments, Cleveland.com is suspending comments as of this Thursday. This is where I go to see a slightly broader swath of comments than airliners.net whenever there is a CLE airport article. No more.

And a little bit more on the wheelhouse of CLE-- approaching end of February now, I guess we're getting what we're going to get from F9 this summer. SAN is dead, SFO lives this summer. . . 2020 is really shaping up in to a dull year for CLE. . . the excitement seems to be what's happening with LGA and DCA. The master facility plan will be more of a 2021 topic.

^wow---that's crazy that cleveland.com would suspend comments. Why? so they don't have to pay someone to read and make sure things are on the up and up? Re 2020, certainly the coronavirus doesn't help. Outside the US all kinds of cancelations are happening. Now that its in Italy, it will certainly impact TATL which may impact US domestic (and thus CLE). And if there is a jump in more/new cases in the US, that alone will discourage people from travel (for business, VFR, vacations, etc.). Thus far, 2020 is a grim year for aviation....

flyCMH wrote:

CLEguy wrote:

Looks like AC is upgrading to 3 E-175 flights per day to YYZ. Did not comb through schedules to see exact dates. But my flights end of June and early July are on the larger aircraft.

Nice catch! This is really a great aircraft upgauge which I'm sure will be well-received by the local market. Definitely speaks to the premium demand, particularly for connecting flights in and out of YYZ, for AC to dedicate the E75 and its premium regional product to the market. I wonder if this will be the shortest transboarder route ex-YYZ for Air Canada Express' E75s.

Both of my flights are back on CRJ's. Darn! Didn't have time to look at the whole summer schedule. Maybe the expected demand hasn't materialized?

^A lot of CLE-YYZ may be transfers at YYZ, mean CLE-TATL. With the coronavirus now in Italy, there may now be a sudden drop in demand for TATL.

I imagine demand is going to drop across the board — including domestically as the virus (and uncertainty) spreads in then United States. Not going to be a good period for air travel. Not only will this cause an economic plummet, but likely a worldwide demand plummet as well.

Argh CMH getting a second daily carrier to SEA while CLE still has. . . . none. So frustrating and inexplicable.

ncflyer wrote:

Argh CMH getting a second daily carrier to SEA while CLE still has. . . . none. So frustrating and inexplicable.

You couldn’t tell we had 10mil passengers , yet we keep getting F9 and NK ! Also speaking of Delta, they offer CUN from every city around us , no love at CLE

United CLE-CHS resumes June 6, 2020 — just loaded into the schedule this morning.
(United Express ERJ145//ExpressJet)

ncflyer wrote:

Argh CMH getting a second daily carrier to SEA while CLE still has. . . . none. So frustrating and inexplicable.

So...CMH will have 2 carriers and 21 weekly nonstop flights to SEA this summer, IND and PIT 14 and CLE 4 for about 12 or so weeks, um...OK

joeman wrote:

ncflyer wrote:

Argh CMH getting a second daily carrier to SEA while CLE still has. . . . none. So frustrating and inexplicable.

So...CMH will have 2 carriers and 21 weekly nonstop flights to SEA this summer, IND and PIT 14 and CLE 4 for about 12 or so weeks, um...OK

IND will be at 21 weekly flights as well

Interestingly enough, CLE-SEA is actually a bigger market than PIT/CMH/MKE-SEA in terms of PDEW, problem is F9 on the route dragging down yields

NK drags down yields to LAX and F9 to SFO, I just can’t believe F9 four weekly is what keeps DL and AS out.

Another way to think abut this is that SEA CMH has about same capacity as CLE LAX. Crazy.

ncflyer wrote:

NK drags down yields to LAX and F9 to SFO, I just can’t believe F9 four weekly is what keeps DL and AS out.

Another way to think abut this is that SEA CMH has about same capacity as CLE LAX. Crazy.

Maybe AS or DL could operate CLE-SEA the rest of the 40 weeks a year like our neighbors referred to above

Sun Country going 2x weekly, year-round on CLE-MSP. The schedule was extended through DEC.

If memory serves me correctly, UA announced year round double daily to SFO about a year ago, but clawed it back pretty quickly. On Eniliria's post this week, SFO is going to single daily in mid August, (and Denver is continuing 4x at least through October, that's a nice pickup).

At least this time of year, at least under current corona virus conditions, it's no wonder SFO isn't double daily year round. I'd be surprised coronavirus is suppressing CLE demand this much but maybe-- who knows. Basic economy not yet checked in for Tuesday and WEdnesday, I am going to continue to monitor.

28 people checked in for coach for March 2 evening flight. The morning flight is reasonably full.
33 for March 3 evening flight (the morning flight is pretty empty on 3/3 too)
48 for March 4. (morning flight 60% full).

greenair727 wrote:

^wow---that's crazy that cleveland.com would suspend comments. Why?

Because cleveland.com comments were a disaster. Nothing good came from wading in there.

Fun little sketch from Saturday Night Live about LGA called "Airport Sushi" -- "Cleveland....that's where everyone at LaGuardia is going..." Timestamp around 5:26.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7Vk_qaiB8

UA announced a 10% domestic schedule reduction for April. In terms of departures, UA was already thwacking CLE in late March. Maybe a hubs-only schedule will not wait until the end of summer. It's coming; the only question is how soon.

Personally, I think the press is stampeding the public into wildly over-reacting to the virus risk, but that's what they're paid to do.

masseybrown wrote:

UA announced a 10% domestic schedule reduction for April. In terms of departures, UA was already thwacking CLE in late March. Maybe a hubs-only schedule will not wait until the end of summer. It's coming; the only question is how soon.

Personally, I think the press is stampeding the public into wildly over-reacting to the virus risk, but that's what they're paid to do.

Agreed on the press and overreaction. Every time one of these issues come up (volcano, virus, recession, etc.), I think back to the lunch I had with Larry Kellner, former CEO of CO, when he was about to leave CO. When asked why he was going to leave, he simply said it's difficult to run a business that so many issues are totally out of your own control that can simply wipe out years of good work in a few months. True again.

Heard UA may be parking w/b a/c in CLE. Anyone else?

If you’re going to call out the press then you must also be upset with the World Health Organization and CDC, as both organizations are very concerned about what’s happening. The media is following their lead not the other way around.

But i gotta keep this on airlines. Interesting discussion on the Pittsburgh thread on their airport design, a lot of the great design is being value engineered out. Cleveland airport needs so much more work than PIT I don’t see $1b going as far as it needs to. The roadway, repurposing D, on-site parking, rental car moving closer, widening concourses, upper level that doesn’t scream vacancy, such a long list…

The only people who need to worry about the virus are old crumblies like me. If you discount deaths of people over 60, it's a pretty small number of fatalities. The reaction should not be bankrupting airlines (Flybe) or grounding aircraft.

How glitzy or extensive a redesign CLE gets will depend on what the airlines have to say about their future needs. If we knew that, we could talk about price tags. If somebody like B6 or WN says I need a 100-departure-a-day mini-hub, the result could be a huge requirement. If they all just support a gradual 15% growth by 2030, a billion could be plenty.

ncflyer wrote:

But i gotta keep this on airlines. Interesting discussion on the Pittsburgh thread on their airport design, a lot of the great design is being value engineered out. Cleveland airport needs so much more work than PIT I don’t see $1b going as far as it needs to. The roadway, repurposing D, on-site parking, rental car moving closer, widening concourses, upper level that doesn’t scream vacancy, such a long list…

What baffles me is that we don't need a master plan to put some things in place. As an example, we have a shortage of parking, leakage of parking customers to uber/lyft and to offsite parking, and a huge empty lot where a parking garage used to be with an existing connecting bridge. With the revenue stream associated with that lot at $15/day x a few thousand spots, financial payback is not the issue. It's lack of vision. Regardless of where the new terminal/plan ends up, we need more parking and it's doubtful that there is any better place than that empty lot. Why not get one of the larger items out of the way now so that the $1.xx bn project is under $1bn (less sticker shock) in a year or two? It sure would be more feasible, manageable, etc. do this in chunks. Not to mention, it could increase the customer service for CLE pax!!

I agree fun2fly, I'll give you one even easier and cheaper to fix-- the quality of the roadway. Whether it was the old temporary drop off site for parking shuttles by the Stephanie Tubbs Jones Hall, or the new one on the north end of the arrivals level, the roadway is in poor condition, especially noticeable in the parking shuttle buses. Why can't that be fixed. This is the experience that every out of town flight attendant has who overnights in CLE, what a great impression.

Alaska announcing SEA-CVG tomorrow...How.......How is CLE still left out!?!? What is going on here?

corn4ahead wrote:

Alaska announcing SEA-CVG tomorrow...How.......How is CLE still left out!?!? What is going on here?

I would like to think we should all just be patient , but seems like AA/DL are going after each other’s hubs and larger stations !

^ AA along with AS !!!

Seattle is a ghost town. Idrk why ANY airlines would be adding flights there for this summer as of right now. It’s ground zero for the COVID-19 outbreak and community transmission is rampid. I’ll be surprised to see F9s CLE-SEA route survive this year. Bookings will likely be way down. Frontier attracts mainly leisure on the route and there’s no way anyone is risking non-essential travel there right now.

corn4ahead wrote:

Alaska announcing SEA-CVG tomorrow...How.......How is CLE still left out!?!? What is going on here?

Couple of things learned here...1) AS had planes to expand to CLE, but chose not to before this pxxxxing match, rather, held, or diverted capacity, your choice for times like this. It tells you where CLE is in the AS planning process 2) MAX aside, AS still has planes to expand SEE CMH/CVG. 3) I think the true reason these two are after CMH/CVG is the pxxxxing match due to AS/AA linking up in SEA and really has nothing to do with CLE being a valuable route in their network. 4) BOTH DL AND AS know that this is too much capacity and will not last 6 months, nor will it be profitable most likely. 5) What amazes me the most is that a publicly traded company can make such poor decisions when Corona is eating their profits by the hour.

Let’s see what happens when airlines start unwinding capacity, as UA has already announced. As for the p contact you refer to I keep reading on airliners that DL is full at SEA yet somehow they add CMH anyway. I’m a little surprised they didn’t add PIT too.

fun2fly wrote:

I think the true reason these two are after CMH/CVG is the pxxxxing match due to AS/AA linking up in SEA and really has nothing to do with CLE being a valuable route in their network.

I think CLE-DCA and AA's enhanced position on CLE-LGA may well change their view of CLE's potential. They will undoubtedly acquire some new frequent flyers at UA's expense which should further improve their share of CLE-ORD and potentially make other routes like CLE-LAX, PHX, and SEA more attractive - if we can just get past the virus/MAX problems without tanking the economy..

masseybrown wrote:

fun2fly wrote:

I think the true reason these two are after CMH/CVG is the pxxxxing match due to AS/AA linking up in SEA and really has nothing to do with CLE being a valuable route in their network.

I think CLE-DCA and AA's enhanced position on CLE-LGA may well change their view of CLE's potential. They will undoubtedly acquire some new frequent flyers at UA's expense which should further improve their share of CLE-ORD and potentially make other routes like CLE-LAX, PHX, and SEA more attractive - if we can just get past the virus/MAX problems without tanking the economy..

I'd like to believe it. I prefer the reliable quality carriers like AA over F9 expanding. They do have the gates. Their CLE>ORD offering in March when I looked to book was 6x ERJ & 1x E75 which is not competitive vs. UA/WN.

Cleveland Clinic suspends all international flying.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... ravel.html

Similarly, AA's product to PHL is just not competitive to other east coast gateways such as EWR/IAD UA or JFK/BOS DL-- 1 A320 4 E145's is what AA has on Philly right now.

ncflyer wrote:

Similarly, AA's product to PHL is just not competitive to other east coast gateways such as EWR/IAD UA or JFK/BOS DL-- 1 A320 4 E145's is what AA has on Philly right now.

I agree, although AA is said (by AA twitter guru @JonNYC) to have kept a good number of E140s in service longer than expected because of the MAX grounding. Still, if you look at today's posted CLE schedules for July weekdays AA shows 38 departures compared to 33 for UA. That's not total neglect and might show some promise for the future.

Of course, those are the 'posted' schedules. Let's see what survives.

Wow, let us think about that for a moment-- AA out-departing UA in the pre-corona virus world!! (granted UA will have many more seats. . . . . ).

One day when I'm bored I want to compare the size of the UA/AA/DL/WN stations at our peer midwestern airports CLE/CVG/CMH/PIT/IND, I suspect CLE ranks four or five for AA and DL and WN, and has a dwindling lead for UA. The reason CLE is the biggest of those 5 airports is because F9 and NK are so successful. CAK so nearby doesn't help CLE. . . .

Based on a quick look at a few April dates for CLE, it appears UA will cut the PM departures to LAX and SFO and one of four flights to DEN in order to force-feed the ORD hub.

Edit to above. I guess there were only three DEN flights to begin with, so just the California flights are cut.

masseybrown wrote:

Edit to above. I guess there were only three DEN flights to begin with, so just the California flights are cut.

CLE-ORD, and I believe CLE-EWR lost a frequency

For all y’all touting AA for offering so many seats to CLE they clearly aren’t doing so well on the route. NYC has had a 60% LF for the past 2 years...

[*]x

Nicknuzzii wrote:

For all y’all touting AA for offering so many seats to CLE they clearly aren’t doing so well on the route. NYC has had a 60% LF for the past 2 years...

Not seats, frequencies.

Nicknuzzii wrote:

For all y’all touting AA for offering so many seats to CLE they clearly aren’t doing so well on the route. NYC has had a 60% LF for the past 2 years...

No one's touting anything about AA that I've seen-- just remarkable that AA will have more frequencies than UA this summer. Presumably AA's loads will improve once UA pulls out of LGA and AA upgrades from those crummy 50 seat aircraft that were not competitive with Delta's offerings.

ncflyer wrote:

Nicknuzzii wrote:

For all y’all touting AA for offering so many seats to CLE they clearly aren’t doing so well on the route. NYC has had a 60% LF for the past 2 years...

No one's touting anything about AA that I've seen-- just remarkable that AA will have more frequencies than UA this summer. Presumably AA's loads will improve once UA pulls out of LGA and AA upgrades from those crummy 50 seat aircraft that were not competitive with Delta's offerings.

It’s not just the 44seaters that we’re hurting them, AAs NYC schedule has been pretty bad for quite a while now, the last flight out of CLE was at 2 pm most days and only 1 flight during the day from LGA to CLE, the other 2 have been after 7 pm..... if you need flexibility, DL has been the only option unless you don’t mind connecting in CLT or DCA.

Somehow I think that very soon previous load factors on any routes will be meaningless.

Some good news for the area......
Cleveland Clinic named No. 2 hospital in the world by Newsweek.

Only bested by the Mayo Clinic.

^That's great that the Clinic is #2, though I wish we'd beat out Mayo.

Thought this was interesting:

Mayo Clinic: "Every year, approximately 1.3 million people from 138 countries come to the Mayo Clinic's 19 hospitals in five states for their specialized team approach."

Cleveland Clinic: "In 2018, there were 7.9 million outpatient visits, from 185 countries, across all of its campuses."

Cleveland Clinic has much more volume than Mayo--and, if that number is just outpatients, it doesn't include hospitalizations. And while 185 countries is impressive, they're not all coming to CLE, as some may well be going into Abu Dhabi--or may already be in Abu Dhabi and end up going to the hospital.

Also, I just realized, the way the line is worded and the fact that the Clinic has bought up many local doctors' offices, the bulk of "outpatient" visits may well be people just going to their doctors for whatever--and not "going to the hospital" which is very different. It shows the number of "visits" not "people". So not really an apples to apples comparison.

https://www.newsweek.com/2020/03/06/top ... 89794.html

no airline hub or focus city anymore but 3 really world class hospitals networks and one large and prestigious medical/dental/nursing school.

So Cleveland is a mega hub after all : }

Construction on the new Ground Transportation Center begins April 1 and will last until November 1. Therefore, shuttle service (for parking and hotels) returns to the former GTC between the terminal and Smart Parking Garage during this period. Cue the chorus of complaints...

I thought the permanent GTC was moving to that location— near the smart parking garage, and that construction was delayed due to the all star game? To tell truth I was hoping the project had been delayed while awaiting the master facility plan, because it’s really not a permanent solution.

In other news from Eniliria looks like AA to JFK is no longer, cancelled this summer. Delta has more than enough capacity on the route, not like their loads have ever killed it.

CLEguy wrote:

Construction on the new Ground Transportation Center begins April 1 and will last until November 1. Therefore, shuttle service (for parking and hotels) returns to the former GTC between the terminal and Smart Parking Garage during this period. Cue the chorus of complaints...

I thought the plans for the new GTC look pretty nice. The fact that it will be covered and heated will greatly enhance its appeal. Plus, when it is done, there won't be a need to use stairs or an escalator to get to the shuttles. To me, a nice (if not flashy) upgrade for a reasonable cost. I use the shuttles all the time, so I'm looking forward to having the area heated in the winter. Waiting there for the shuttles to arrive in the cold is the worst!

ncflyer wrote:

I thought the permanent GTC was moving to that location— near the smart parking garage, and that construction was delayed due to the all star game? To tell truth I was hoping the project had been delayed while awaiting the master facility plan, because it’s really not a permanent solution.

In other news from Eniliria looks like AA to JFK is no longer, cancelled this summer. Delta has more than enough capacity on the route, not like their loads have ever killed it.

The new "permanent" location will be at the north end of the terminal where it is currently. It just needs some upgrades, as noted above. I don't think relatively minor things like this can wait until new construction might start several years down the road in the wake of the new master plan, unlike the suggestion to build a new parking garage on the Orange Lot (this should wait).

Just saw this link: https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020 ... rvice.html