Maybe the flight to Ithaca was to bring scientists to Nasa from Cornell? Thanks for the timetable pics.

Enough of my memories of the past (although I enjoyed our discussion and hope to continue it in the future).
I wanted to bring up the new Cleveland Airport Master Plan. Hopefully we get lucky and they haven't gotten very far along or spent all the money. I think it best to put everything on hold until there is more clarity on demand, the financial strength of the airlines and city. I see from the Indy thread that they received Federal Funds to subsidize operations. All airports are going to need something to make up for lost revenue and to pay off the existing bonds. Our best hope would be some massive Infrastructure bill for public works that might occur with bailout package (what are we up to number 3 or 4 ?

I guess it pays to be slow off the mark - can you imagine if they would have built that 3rd parallel runway? Bad enough they bought the IX center,

^Cleveland Hopkins, acc. to this story, will receive $46.3M in stimulus funds. What about BKL? I couldn't find an official (FAA or govt) source if the money is only for Hopkins or the Dept of Port Control as a whole--as other small airports are on the list. Anyway, other airports and the allotted amounts:

Akron-Canton Regional Airport will get $7.6 million
Akron Fulton International Airport: $69,000
Erie-Ottawa International Airport: $69,000
Lorain County Regional Airport: $69,000
Kent State University Airport: $30,000
Portage County Airport: $30,000
Put-in-Bay Airport: $20,000

https://www.wkyc.com/article/money/clev ... us-package

I copied the below from the CLE Master Plan Status Website -

03.06.2020
Making significant progress on the Master Plan Study, CLE, in conjunction with RS&H, has achieved near completion of the investigative phase known as existing conditions. The data collected during this step is critical to support the subsequent phases of the study.

RS&H has finished developing the proposed forecasts of activity for CLE. An accurate prediction of activity in five, ten, and twenty year horizons is necessary to anticipate future needs of the airport. A single line is often used to show anticipated growth. However, due to the cyclical nature of the economy which may influence growth, forecasts are developed with low, base, and high case scenarios. Among the metrics are enplanements, or passengers boarding aircraft domestically and internationally, and the number of scheduled departures. The proposed forecast will be presented to the Federal Aviation Administration for approval.

Once a consensus on expected growth is established, alternative solutions to accommodate the activity may be developed. CLE and RS&H has taken primary steps in developing these alternatives with high-level brainstorming sessions based on the proposed forecasts. Once an established set of alternatives is determined, they will be share with the general public for consideration.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

I copied the below from the CLE Master Plan Status Website -

03.06.2020
Making significant progress on the Master Plan Study, CLE, in conjunction with RS&H, has achieved near completion of the investigative phase known as existing conditions. The data collected during this step is critical to support the subsequent phases of the study.

RS&H has finished developing the proposed forecasts of activity for CLE. An accurate prediction of activity in five, ten, and twenty year horizons is necessary to anticipate future needs of the airport. A single line is often used to show anticipated growth. However, due to the cyclical nature of the economy which may influence growth, forecasts are developed with low, base, and high case scenarios. Among the metrics are enplanements, or passengers boarding aircraft domestically and internationally, and the number of scheduled departures. The proposed forecast will be presented to the Federal Aviation Administration for approval.

Once a consensus on expected growth is established, alternative solutions to accommodate the activity may be developed. CLE and RS&H has taken primary steps in developing these alternatives with high-level brainstorming sessions based on the proposed forecasts. Once an established set of alternatives is determined, they will be share with the general public for consideration.

And as expected, also on the Master Plan website:

03.18.2020
NOTICE: The CLE Master Plan Public Meeting schedule implementation has been delayed due to concerns over the corona virus. The public meeting schedule will be added at a future date to be determined.

Can they return the completed report and forecasts for a refund? Maybe a free do over?

Interesting coulpe of flights by UA today. Two 737s from CLE to HOU. Moving them from CLE parking to HOU? There are a couple from DEN on their way to HOU also. Wouldn't HOU be a high humidity and salty environment?

Things are kinda quiet on the CLE forum so I thought I'd throw out the question - what was the most exciting thing you ever saw while either working or spotting at Hopkins?

Since i spent most of my youth either on the Observation deck, parked on Brook Park Road or hanging out by the thresholds of 5R/5L. ( People may not know that the City of Cleveland had a area at that end to fly those small line handled gas powered model planes). Of course it was coolest when they would use 18-36 or 28-10. So we saw a lot of "cool things".

Anyhow one day we drove out specifically to watch the United 747 depart for Chicago (early 70's). It was afternoon on a warm summer day. As the beast lined up on 23L, the Captain brought all four of the P&W's up to takeoff power. She just started to roll when a piece of asphalt maybe have the size of the rear stabilizer gets lifted up and goes flying back past the Stbd elevator. Most likely it was the engine hanging out furthest that lifted up the asphalt that they have around the sides of the runways where they place the taxi way lights. We didn't have our scanner with us so we weren't able to hear the communication between the plane and the tower. The aircraft continued on to Chicago. An airport car with the flashing yellow light raced out to check on the damage. I think most of the debris landed on runway 28 and they set about cleaning it up. Not something we ever saw again.

I must say that seeing the F35s, Thunderbirds, and Blue Angels do overhead approaches and unrestricted climbs to 14,000 feet is pretty damn cool. It happens during air show weekend when they do their show at BKL then park at CLE. The view from the tower is incredible.

I've always meant to go out there during Labor Day. Every blue moon a T-38 will fly over where I live in Bay. I wonder how often NASA brings in their supersonic or DOD aircraft. I've never seen the S-3 in the pattern either. PIT is lucky in that they have a Transport squadron based there.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

I've always meant to go out there during Labor Day. Every blue moon a T-38 will fly over where I live in Bay. I wonder how often NASA brings in their supersonic or DOD aircraft. I've never seen the S-3 in the pattern either. PIT is lucky in that they have a Transport squadron based there.

NASA flies periodically. I see the S3 a few times a month. They fly their other aircraft more often. I guess it depends on what mission they are doing.

CLE arrival: "LXJ456 GLF4 London Luton (LTN / EGGW) 09:13a BST 11:53a EDT"

I'm always curious about these. "Who was that masked man?"

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Things are kinda quiet on the CLE forum so I thought I'd throw out the question - what was the most exciting thing you ever saw while either working or spotting at Hopkins?

Since i spent most of my youth either on the Observation deck, parked on Brook Park Road or hanging out by the thresholds of 5R/5L. ( People may not know that the City of Cleveland had a area at that end to fly those small line handled gas powered model planes). Of course it was coolest when they would use 18-36 or 28-10. So we saw a lot of "cool things".

Anyhow one day we drove out specifically to watch the United 747 depart for Chicago (early 70's). It was afternoon on a warm summer day. As the beast lined up on 23L, the Captain brought all four of the P&W's up to takeoff power. She just started to roll when a piece of asphalt maybe have the size of the rear stabilizer gets lifted up and goes flying back past the Stbd elevator. Most likely it was the engine hanging out furthest that lifted up the asphalt that they have around the sides of the runways where they place the taxi way lights. We didn't have our scanner with us so we weren't able to hear the communication between the plane and the tower. The aircraft continued on to Chicago. An airport car with the flashing yellow light raced out to check on the damage. I think most of the debris landed on runway 28 and they set about cleaning it up. Not something we ever saw again.

I always wondered what gross takeoff weight those United Boeing 747 classics were at on those short, 300-mile CLE-ORD flights. One weekend in my teens I took my usual Shaker and airport rapid ride from my family home to watch the procession of a/c out at Hopkins. On that day the Chicago-bound wide-body pushed back from the gate at C concourse but did not taxi to either 23L or 5R. Instead it trundled down to end of runway 36 which was on the order of 6,400-feet long (someone please correct me). A murmur came over the observation deck as he taxied into position and spooled-up. From my recollection decades later he rotated just before intersecting 23L-5R, and seconds later an aluminum overcast flashed over startled motorists on Brookpark Rd.

I believe you are correct on the 6400 feet. 28 was 6400 feet too until they install the overrun concrete and reduced it to 6000. 18-36 was cool because it literally ended about 30 feet from the fence on Brookpark Road. That was some prime spotting territory. At one time there was a 18R-36L (6400'). and a 18L-36R (which was much shorter and narrower. Similarly there was a 28L and a 28R. The narrow shorter runways. were only used by GA. And of course there was the "SOD" grass runway that ran parallel to 5-23. I actually took off from the SOD runway when I was learning to fly. I did most of my flying however at Strongsville Airpark which was being run by a United mechanic if I recall correctly. . Great group of people.Sadly is now another subdivision.

Perhaps corn4ahead can tell us why 28/10 is hardly used anymore. Years ago it was used whenever the wind favored it. I landed on it once in a TWA 767 (they ran those from STL) so hard half the oxygen masks drop out. I recall seeing a Flying Tiger DC-8-63 land on 28 with the thrust reversers deployed as soon as the mains hit the ground. Runway 28 had at least 2 overruns that I remember - a Lear bringing a transplant organ to the Cleveland Clinic in a blizzard and a Delta EMB 175 that overran it too.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Things are kinda quiet on the CLE forum so I thought I'd throw out the question - what was the most exciting thing you ever saw while either working or spotting at Hopkins?

Malev Hungarian Airlines ran a summer charter series for a few years in the early ‘90s with 767s. I remember standing on the observation deck to watch HA-LHA take off for Budapest. I was probably about 13. Good times.

From eniliria's weekly list, many many CLE reductions, but I noticed one expansion compared to last year:

F9 CLE-MCO NOV 0.6>2[1.5] DEC 0>2[1.5] JAN 0>2[1.4]

In my youth, back in the 70s, I lived for a time on the Strongsville/Berea border and I could always tell the time of day by the arrivals of the Allegheny Commuter/Fischer Brothers DeHavilland Herons which always used runway 36 for their arrivals from Mansfield.

It seemed out of nowhere circa 1979, both UA (DC-8-61) and AA (DC-10) started flying night coach JFK-CLE-LAX after the "oil crisis" capacity cutbacks. Departues from CLE were around 11:15pm. I saw in the PD that coming in August (79?) AA would substitute the DC-10 with a 747 three times a week for that month only. Had to see that, had parents drop me off for an up close and personal view. I still remember an AA flight attendant "stewardess" from another flight going to the window to see it. Her companion stewardess said something like "What a DC-10?" "No, a 74" was her reply. Long way up those pre-jetway stairs, a magnificent sight, even at night.

joeman wrote:

It seemed out of nowhere circa 1979, both UA (DC-8-61) and AA (DC-10) started flying night coach JFK-CLE-LAX after the "oil crisis" capacity cutbacks. Departues from CLE were around 11:15pm. I saw in the PD that coming in August (79?) AA would substitute the DC-10 with a 747 three times a week for that month only. Had to see that, had parents drop me off for an up close and personal view. I still remember an AA flight attendant "stewardess" from another flight going to the window to see it. Her companion stewardess said something like "What a DC-10?" "No, a 74" was her reply. Long way up those pre-jetway stairs, a magnificent sight, even at night.

Didn't the AA DC-10 originate at BOS? BOS-CLE-LAX-CLE-BOS and the UA DC-8 was JFK-CLE-LAX-CLE-JFK. I remember them leaving late and returning as red-eyes. If you remember, the UA DC-8 was flight numbers 1 and 2, I dont remember which direction was which flight number. Those were prestigious flight numbers back then.

I remember the AA flight originating at BOS because I went to CLE to see it one night and the Cleveleand Indians all got off the plane from a series in Boston vs. Red Sox. I even got autographs. Quite the bonus!

chrisjake wrote:

joeman wrote:

It seemed out of nowhere circa 1979, both UA (DC-8-61) and AA (DC-10) started flying night coach JFK-CLE-LAX after the "oil crisis" capacity cutbacks. Departues from CLE were around 11:15pm. I saw in the PD that coming in August (79?) AA would substitute the DC-10 with a 747 three times a week for that month only. Had to see that, had parents drop me off for an up close and personal view. I still remember an AA flight attendant "stewardess" from another flight going to the window to see it. Her companion stewardess said something like "What a DC-10?" "No, a 74" was her reply. Long way up those pre-jetway stairs, a magnificent sight, even at night.

Didn't the AA DC-10 originate at BOS? BOS-CLE-LAX-CLE-BOS and the UA DC-8 was JFK-CLE-LAX-CLE-JFK. I remember them leaving late and returning as red-eyes. If you remember, the UA DC-8 was flight numbers 1 and 2, I dont remember which direction was which flight number. Those were prestigious flight numbers back then.

I remember the AA flight originating at BOS because I went to CLE to see it one night and the Cleveleand Indians all got off the plane from a series in Boston vs. Red Sox. I even got autographs. Quite the bonus!

Maybe I'm mistaken on JFK/BOS, or it changed up at some point. Either way, wish I'd taken a pic of that AA747

I never saw the AA 747, just the DC-10. I have OAG's back to 1975 packed away...since I'm stuck at home I'll try to dig some out from back then.

I used to regularly fly the DC-10 on UA's ORD>CLE and it would time in at 47-49 min regularly. Amazing how the flight attendants tried to do a full beverage cart for so many people with little success. It was a lot more time loading/unloading the plane vs the flight time.

Did any of you guys go on the United DC-10 Open House? When the DC-10's began service, they brought one in at the first gate on D and let the public walk on board for a tour.
I didn't realize that AA brought a 747 to Cleveland. So in terms of widebodies that were scheduled into CLE, NW had the DC-10-40's, United had the DC-10-10 and the 747-100, Eastern L-1011, TWA a 767, and AA DC-10-10 and 747, Continental A-300.

Didn't Condor fly wide bodies here too in the summer? I don't think YAT did but UADiesel10 mentions Malev's 767. One of the rarest charters I saw was a Hawaiian L-1011 taking about 8500' of 5R in a snow storm to go some place warm.

chrisjake wrote:

I never saw the AA 747, just the DC-10. I have OAG's back to 1975 packed away...since I'm stuck at home I'll try to dig some out from back then.

I always saved OAG's back then too...never saw listed, simply a small PD post about a 3 day week substitution (August only in 78 or so) that alerted me and going to see it since I only lived a mile away. That's it

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Did any of you guys go on the United DC-10 Open House? When the DC-10's began service, they brought one in at the first gate on D and let the public walk on board for a tour.
I didn't realize that AA brought a 747 to Cleveland. So in terms of widebodies that were scheduled into CLE, NW had the DC-10-40's, United had the DC-10-10 and the 747-100, Eastern L-1011, TWA a 767, and AA DC-10-10 and 747, Continental A-300.

Didn't Condor fly wide bodies here too in the summer? I don't think YAT did but UADiesel10 mentions Malev's 767. One of the rarest charters I saw was a Hawaiian L-1011 taking about 8500' of 5R in a snow storm to go some place warm.

Condor did fly DC-10's here from Germany for a few summers. JAT also flew 707's then DC-10's into CLE. The JAT flight was actually scheduled and depending on the day did a Belgrade/Ljubjana-CLE-ORD-Belgrade/Ljubjana routing. I've also seen Malev 767-200s here but I dont recall if it was charter or scheduled. I believe their stop was in YYZ before continuing to CLE

joeman wrote:

chrisjake wrote:

I never saw the AA 747, just the DC-10. I have OAG's back to 1975 packed away...since I'm stuck at home I'll try to dig some out from back then.

I always saved OAG's back then too...never saw listed, simply a small PD post about a 3 day week substitution (August only in 78 or so) that alerted me and going to see it since I only lived a mile away. That's it

Gotcha. You should've called me!

chrisjake wrote:

joeman wrote:

chrisjake wrote:

I never saw the AA 747, just the DC-10. I have OAG's back to 1975 packed away...since I'm stuck at home I'll try to dig some out from back then.

I always saved OAG's back then too...never saw listed, simply a small PD post about a 3 day week substitution (August only in 78 or so) that alerted me and going to see it since I only lived a mile away. That's it

Gotcha. You should've called me!

I would've enjoyed the company and think you woulda liked the stewardess that made the "74" comment to her partner, also very young and you know back then… Why oh why didn't I take a camera for the plane, and them!!!!

I remember the brief Malev service and believe it was charter and that a Hungarian girlfriend from back then may have taken it since she visited the ole country a couple times shortly before we met.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Did any of you guys go on the United DC-10 Open House? When the DC-10's began service, they brought one in at the first gate on D and let the public walk on board for a tour.
I didn't realize that AA brought a 747 to Cleveland. So in terms of widebodies that were scheduled into CLE, NW had the DC-10-40's, United had the DC-10-10 and the 747-100, Eastern L-1011, TWA a 767, and AA DC-10-10 and 747, Continental A-300.

Didn't Condor fly wide bodies here too in the summer? I don't think YAT did but UADiesel10 mentions Malev's 767. One of the rarest charters I saw was a Hawaiian L-1011 taking about 8500' of 5R in a snow storm to go some place warm.

Don't forget UA 767's to ORD! I don't believe AA ever had regularly scheduled 747 service out of CLE, as UA did. I also don't recall Eastern L-1011's either; where did they fly? Condor most certainly served CLE regularly for many summers in the 1970s-1980s on DC-10s (I flew them in 1982, 1985, 1986 and 1989). Typical routing was CLE-DTW-FRA-CLE. As noted above, JAT also flew DC-10s on summer charters for many seasons. In summer 1988, Martinair also did charters to AMS. I was booked on one, but the CLE leg was canceled and they flew me to BOS on US to catch what I think was an 757? Also Delta bought the route authority from Pan Am for DTW-LHR and had a tag-on flight on an A310 to CLE for a brief time, where passengers actually cleared customs here. I've seen pics on here of an Air Canada 747 parked at A-14 doing a charter from London, but am not sure if it was a regular thing or a one-off flight. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

There should be a new "CLE Nostalgic Thread" created for all these latest posts!!!

CLEguy wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Did any of you guys go on the United DC-10 Open House? When the DC-10's began service, they brought one in at the first gate on D and let the public walk on board for a tour.
I didn't realize that AA brought a 747 to Cleveland. So in terms of widebodies that were scheduled into CLE, NW had the DC-10-40's, United had the DC-10-10 and the 747-100, Eastern L-1011, TWA a 767, and AA DC-10-10 and 747, Continental A-300.

Didn't Condor fly wide bodies here too in the summer? I don't think YAT did but UADiesel10 mentions Malev's 767. One of the rarest charters I saw was a Hawaiian L-1011 taking about 8500' of 5R in a snow storm to go some place warm.

Don't forget UA 767's to ORD! I don't believe AA ever had regularly scheduled 747 service out of CLE, as UA did. I also don't recall Eastern L-1011's either; where did they fly? Condor most certainly served CLE regularly for many summers in the 1970s-1980s on DC-10s (I flew them in 1982, 1985, 1986 and 1989). Typical routing was CLE-DTW-FRA-CLE. As noted above, JAT also flew DC-10s on summer charters for many seasons. In summer 1988, Martinair also did charters to AMS. I was booked on one, but the CLE leg was canceled and they flew me to BOS on US to catch what I think was an 757? Also Delta bought the route authority from Pan Am for DTW-LHR and had a tag-on flight on an A310 to CLE for a brief time, where passengers actually cleared customs here. I've seen pics on here of an Air Canada 747 parked at A-14 doing a charter from London, but am not sure if it was a regular thing or a one-off flight. Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

I actually took that pic of the AC 747 on here. 2x per week for a couple of summers. London-CLE-DTW-London, I can even remember it was flight 070 into CLE and 071 outbound.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

So in terms of widebodies that were scheduled into CLE, NW had the DC-10-40's, United had the DC-10-10 and the 747-100, Eastern L-1011, TWA a 767, and AA DC-10-10 and 747, Continental A-300.

I remember taking a photo of an American 767 at CLE in the late 80s.

I found one timetable dated January 1988 that shows an AA 767 arriving from O'Hare at 3:38pm and going back to Chicago at 5:33pm. I didn't look to see how long that lasted, though.

CLEguy wrote:

Also Delta bought the route authority from Pan Am for DTW-LHR and had a tag-on flight on an A310 to CLE for a brief time, where passengers actually cleared customs here.

Pan Am actually operated that tag on even before Delta acquired the route. Pan Am's May 1, 1991 timetable shows 1-stop A310 service CLE-DTW-LGW beginning June 13 of that year.

I forgot the PanAm 310. Pan Am also ran a 727-200 from Cincinnati to Cleveland briefly. I forget why they flew that (maybe to feed the flight to Detroit and the London) but my sister-in-law took the flight cause it was only like $25. Also didn't know about the UA/AA 767's. I think the EA L-1011 was to Atlanta but it may have been MIA.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

I forgot the PanAm 310. Pan Am also ran a 727-200 from Cincinnati to Cleveland briefly. I forget why they flew that (maybe to feed the flight to Detroit and the London) but my sister-in-law took the flight cause it was only like $25. Also didn't know about the UA/AA 767's. I think the EA L-1011 was to Atlanta but it may have been MIA.

The Pan Am 727 originated at JFK and did JFK-CLE-CVG. It always did JFK-CLE, but at different times it would continue on from CLE to CVG or IND or MSP. It was a JFK international feeder, just like TWA's daily 707, flight 700/703. Pan Am also fed their Miami hub from Cleveland for years. When I lived in S.Florida I would fly Pan Am home a lot.

Do you remember the attempted hijack of the Pan Am 727 at CLE? It never left the gate and the hijacker was, I believe, shot and wounded.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Pan Am also ran a 727-200 from Cincinnati to Cleveland briefly.

The Pan Am 727 tag-on to/from Cincinnati actually happened twice. The first time was beginning in October 1984. The flight operated Cincinnati-Cleveland-JFK. That was discontinued by the following summer.

The Cincinnati to Cleveland came back in the summer of 1986 and operated until the summer of 1988.

I recall during the first time around, in January 1985, an armed woman attempted to hijack the aircraft at Hopkins after it arrived from Cincinnati resulting in a multi-hour hostage situation.

From the Aviation Safety Network:

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19850104-0

chrisjake wrote:

The Pan Am 727 originated at JFK and did JFK-CLE-CVG. It always did JFK-CLE, but at different times it would continue on from CLE to CVG or IND or MSP. It was a JFK international feeder, just like TWA's daily 707, flight 700/703. Pan Am also fed their Miami hub from Cleveland for years. When I lived in S.Florida I would fly Pan Am home a lot.

Do you remember the attempted hijack of the Pan Am 727 at CLE? It never left the gate and the hijacker was, I believe, shot and wounded.

chrisjake, I think you are I were providing the same information at the same time - even mentioning the hijacking!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/28702482607

An EA L-1011 at CLE in photo. I use to save newspaper ads for new service. EA advertised CLE-MIA L-1011 service coming, same time as competing with the UA 747 on the route, caption in photo says 1973. Went to see that too live, very disappointed though that I think it only lasted a month or so before going back to probably 727

departedflights wrote:

chrisjake wrote:

The Pan Am 727 originated at JFK and did JFK-CLE-CVG. It always did JFK-CLE, but at different times it would continue on from CLE to CVG or IND or MSP. It was a JFK international feeder, just like TWA's daily 707, flight 700/703. Pan Am also fed their Miami hub from Cleveland for years. When I lived in S.Florida I would fly Pan Am home a lot.

Do you remember the attempted hijack of the Pan Am 727 at CLE? It never left the gate and the hijacker was, I believe, shot and wounded.

chrisjake, I think you are I were providing the same information at the same time - even mentioning the hijacking!

whoa....what are the chances? that's crazy!

Cool shot - love those UA 727's in the back ground. Amazing that many people from NE Ohio used to go to Miami. And for that matter to have non-stop service to SJU on a DC-8S. Around 1980, midwesterners discovered the West Coast of Florida and that's were they all go now. Now CLE - MIA has just RJ's and RSW/MCO has all the service.

Of course I can still remember the jingle during United's TV commercials about United's Sunbirds - "and tell your grandpa we fly to Tampa and we throw St. Pete in for free"

joeman wrote:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/28702482607

An EA L-1011 at CLE in photo. I use to save newspaper ads for new service. EA advertised CLE-MIA L-1011 service coming, same time as competing with the UA 747 on the route, caption in photo says 1973. Went to see that too live, very disappointed though that I think it only lasted a month or so before going back to probably 727

I think you are right about it only lasting briefly, joeman. I have an April 1974 Official Airline Guide and by then, their CLE-MIA flight was back to a 727-100.

chrisjake wrote:

[The Pan Am 727 originated at JFK and did JFK-CLE-CVG. It always did JFK-CLE, but at different times it would continue on from CLE to CVG or IND or MSP. It was a JFK international feeder, just like TWA's daily 707, flight 700/703. Pan Am also fed their Miami hub from Cleveland for years. When I lived in S.Florida I would fly Pan Am home a lot.

I believe TWA's JFK flights were 800/803. Flight 800 continued on to Paris (albeit with a change of aircraft, I think, although both segments might have been on a 707 in the earlier days). Are you sure about Pan Am flying CLE-MIA, at least nonstop, and not via JFK? What time period was this? I don't remember that route at all. EA and UA both flew CLE-MIA nonstop.

Not the best quality pic, but it is amazing that everything in this scene was once taken for granted. Mainline service, weekend vacation charters with a Bahamas Air 727, Flying Tigers 727. Heady days in hindsight.


Here is the airport's news flyer detailing the start of Pan Am's 5x weekly one-stop to LGW:

CLEguy wrote:

chrisjake wrote:

[The Pan Am 727 originated at JFK and did JFK-CLE-CVG. It always did JFK-CLE, but at different times it would continue on from CLE to CVG or IND or MSP. It was a JFK international feeder, just like TWA's daily 707, flight 700/703. Pan Am also fed their Miami hub from Cleveland for years. When I lived in S.Florida I would fly Pan Am home a lot.

I believe TWA's JFK flights were 800/803. Flight 800 continued on to Paris (albeit with a change of aircraft, I think, although both segments might have been on a 707 in the earlier days). Are you sure about Pan Am flying CLE-MIA, at least nonstop, and not via JFK? What time period was this? I don't remember that route at all. EA and UA both flew CLE-MIA nonstop.

Yes, certain they, and up to twice daily from both CLE and DTW after a MIA hub development. Not sure time frame, but it came after and operated along side both the JFK and CLE-DTW-LGW flights. Even Air Florida came to town after deregulation originally to MIA and then maybe TPA and or MCO too, but up to 2 or 3 flights a day total. You're right about AA not having scheduled CLE 747 service, just those handful of substitutions. I'll take it as we had a brief period of AA 747 service, just like the EA L-1011, back in "Camelot" days.

CLEguy wrote:

Are you sure about Pan Am flying CLE-MIA, at least nonstop, and not via JFK? What time period was this? I don't remember that route at all. EA and UA both flew CLE-MIA nonstop.

CLEguy... I honestly thought the same thing but I just happened to find it in the very first Pan Am timetable I grabbed!

May 1, 1991:

Two daily nonstops on Pan Am to Miami at 8:00am and 7:00pm. Flights 749 and 747.

There was a third direct flight that left at 11:20am and stopped in Detroit. Flight 748.

That was a surprise to me! But I do think that was very short lived.

Edited: I just checked and I don't see it in ANY of their 1990 timetables, so it must have started in early 1991 and was gone by the time Pan Am shut down later that year.

I flew it, more than once. I would always get back to S.Florida in the evening and have the long drive north to Tamarac where I lived at the time. Made for a very late night.

re: TWA 800/803... You are correct... TWA 700/703 became 800/803 at one point.

Do you guys recall if it was Allegheny or US Airways Commuter that operated C-212 (Spanish military transports converted to airliners) into Cleveland? I painfully learned the lesson never to drink 2 beers before you board a 200 MPH aircraft with no bathroom. The flight was just from CMH to CLE but the last 15 minutes were sheer torture. I recall running across the ramp to get into the terminal. The C-212 were withdrawn from service shortly after that when a flight from CLE to DTW crashed on landing in Detroit due to I believe the pilot stalling the aircraft while landing.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Do you guys recall if it was Allegheny or US Airways Commuter that operated C-212 (Spanish military transports converted to airliners) into Cleveland? I painfully learned the lesson never to drink 2 beers before you board a 200 MPH aircraft with no bathroom. The flight was just from CMH to CLE but the last 15 minutes were sheer torture. I recall running across the ramp to get into the terminal. The C-212 were withdrawn from service shortly after that when a flight from CLE to DTW crashed on landing in Detroit due to I believe the pilot stalling the aircraft while landing.

Fischer Bros. operated them under the Allegheny Commuter banner for USAir

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jac ... wuz-aYWsGn

Spirit resuming CLE-MCO with a stop in CMH on 5/3. Return goes MCO-CLE-CMH. CLE-CMH is bookable.

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Do you guys recall if it was Allegheny or US Airways Commuter that operated C-212 (Spanish military transports converted to airliners) into Cleveland? I painfully learned the lesson never to drink 2 beers before you board a 200 MPH aircraft with no bathroom. The flight was just from CMH to CLE but the last 15 minutes were sheer torture. I recall running across the ramp to get into the terminal. The C-212 were withdrawn from service shortly after that when a flight from CLE to DTW crashed on landing in Detroit due to I believe the pilot stalling the aircraft while landing.

I don't remember C-212, but I do remember Lake Central (merged with Allegheny) flying Nord 262's. I took one once from CLE to PIT with stops at CAK and YNG. It took longer than driving, but I didn't have a car at the time.

chrisjake wrote:

MohawkWeekend wrote:

Do you guys recall if it was Allegheny or US Airways Commuter that operated C-212 (Spanish military transports converted to airliners) into Cleveland? I painfully learned the lesson never to drink 2 beers before you board a 200 MPH aircraft with no bathroom. The flight was just from CMH to CLE but the last 15 minutes were sheer torture. I recall running across the ramp to get into the terminal. The C-212 were withdrawn from service shortly after that when a flight from CLE to DTW crashed on landing in Detroit due to I believe the pilot stalling the aircraft while landing.

Fischer Bros. operated them under the Allegheny Commuter banner for USAir

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jac ... wuz-aYWsGn

Yes, AL Commuter to Galion & Mansfield! They used to fly the DH Heron on the route. Those were the days...