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chrisjake
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:19 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:46 pm

CLEguy wrote:
chrisjake wrote:
MohawkWeekend wrote:
Do you guys recall if it was Allegheny or US Airways Commuter that operated C-212 (Spanish military transports converted to airliners) into Cleveland? I painfully learned the lesson never to drink 2 beers before you board a 200 MPH aircraft with no bathroom. The flight was just from CMH to CLE but the last 15 minutes were sheer torture. I recall running across the ramp to get into the terminal. The C-212 were withdrawn from service shortly after that when a flight from CLE to DTW crashed on landing in Detroit due to I believe the pilot stalling the aircraft while landing.


Fischer Bros. operated them under the Allegheny Commuter banner for USAir

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jac ... wuz-aYWsGn


Yes, AL Commuter to Galion & Mansfield! They used to fly the DH Heron on the route. Those were the days...


yep, like this guy:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jac ... wuz-aYWsGn

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jac ... wuz-aYWsGn

:)
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:02 pm

chrisjake wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
chrisjake wrote:

Fischer Bros. operated them under the Allegheny Commuter banner for USAir

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jac ... wuz-aYWsGn


Yes, AL Commuter to Galion & Mansfield! They used to fly the DH Heron on the route. Those were the days...


yep, like this guy:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jac ... wuz-aYWsGn

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jac ... wuz-aYWsGn

:)


Great pics! Love all your old CLE shots from the late 70s early 80s! I wish someone took pics of the old terminal/concourse interiors prior to the remodeling. My memories of those days are pretty hazy.
 
chrisjake
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:07 am

CLEguy wrote:
chrisjake wrote:
CLEguy wrote:

Yes, AL Commuter to Galion & Mansfield! They used to fly the DH Heron on the route. Those were the days...


yep, like this guy:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jac ... wuz-aYWsGn

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_jac ... wuz-aYWsGn

:)


Great pics! Love all your old CLE shots from the late 70s early 80s! I wish someone took pics of the old terminal/concourse interiors prior to the remodeling. My memories of those days are pretty hazy.



Thanks. Are you referring to back when they had the one large main lobby with the large arrival and departure boards? There's a pic of that floating around somewhere, I've come across it in the past. As a child, I would always love the new car displays in the lobby.
 
chrisjake
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:15 am

Found it: https://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc. ... 483/rec/50

Cleveland Memory Project has plenty of old Cleveland photos and drawings to peruse through. Quite a few from both CLE and BKL
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:42 am

chrisjake wrote:
Found it: https://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc. ... 483/rec/50

Cleveland Memory Project has plenty of old Cleveland photos and drawings to peruse through. Quite a few from both CLE and BKL


Thanks. I have seen that one and others on that site. I'm really looking for interior pics of the old West and North Concourses (What can i say, but I'm an airport fanatic, and love airport architecture and design). I do remember the South Concourse more clearly as I spent more time there. In case you haven't seen it, check out this scene from Paul Simon's "One Trick Pony" for some great scenes on the by then C concourse, main lobby (now the Central checkpoint; check out the airline ticketing sign at the top of the escalator with the obvious changes and additions to airline names, and the old walkway with moving sidewalks to the parking lots and long-term garage (now torn down for the Orange Lot).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBGpZpmVrG8
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:48 am

CLEguy wrote:
chrisjake wrote:
Found it: https://clevelandmemory.contentdm.oclc. ... 483/rec/50

Cleveland Memory Project has plenty of old Cleveland photos and drawings to peruse through. Quite a few from both CLE and BKL


Thanks. I have seen that one and others on that site. I'm really looking for interior pics of the old West and North Concourses (What can i say, but I'm an airport fanatic, and love airport architecture and design). I do remember the South Concourse more clearly as I spent more time there. In case you haven't seen it, check out this scene from Paul Simon's "One Trick Pony" (1980) for some great scenes on the by then C concourse, main lobby (now the Central checkpoint; check out the airline ticketing sign at the top of the escalator with the obvious changes and additions to airline names, and the old walkway with moving sidewalks to the parking lots and long-term garage (now torn down for the Orange Lot).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBGpZpmVrG8
 
chrisjake
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:00 am

That's pretty cool...I've never seen that. I spent 3 yrs working for Marriott-Host in the early 80s at CLE and that is exactly how I remember it. Looks it was filmed right when Braniff started service, Allegheny became USAir and North Central became Republic.
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:06 pm

I came across this thesis entitled, "Airport Infrastructure in the Shrinking City: Planning for Smart Decline in Cleveland’s Regional Airport System and Its Role in a Dynamic Urban Future."

https://digitalrepository.trincoll.edu/ ... ext=theses

I'm just starting to read it, but thought others might enjoy taking a look, too.
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:19 pm

Does anyone else remember or can confirm that Air Canada once served CLE-YUL nonstop. I came across an old PD article and AC ad mentioning CLE-YUL service starting April 25, 1976, flight 702, departing CLE at 1:40 p.m. The ad also mentions the 1976 Olympics, so maybe it was only seasonal service in support of that even. As far as I knew, only US Air and Continental Express/United Express ever served the route.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:55 am

Just finished reading the thesis report. Interesting but there were a couple of things I question. Cleveland's Regional Airport System is more than CLE and BKL. He briefly mentions Cuyahoga County, no mention of Lorain County or Freedom Field. He spent a lot of time discussing the destruction of the Riverside Community by the airport in the 70's - 80's as a bad thing. Until the last 727 and DC-9 were retired, who in their right mind wanted to live there? I lived in WestPark briefly in the 80's. The better housing and neighborhoods were always north of Lorain Rd and further from the noise. I also think a lot of the reduction in aircraft movements at both CLE and BKL were more due to the collapse of light general aviation (flight training and owner operated single and light twins) They hardly exist anymore. He inferred that it was due to declining population and the weaker economy. His report did discuss UAL pullback role too. But I believe he is counting all airfield moments in his numbers which makes it look worse than it is.
Anyway, I do agree with his belief that Burke should down due to its lack of use and required need for subsidies. It's going to lose even more money this year with COVID-19.
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    joeman
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:12 am

    CLEguy wrote:
    Does anyone else remember or can confirm that Air Canada once served CLE-YUL nonstop. I came across an old PD article and AC ad mentioning CLE-YUL service starting April 25, 1976, flight 702, departing CLE at 1:40 p.m. The ad also mentions the 1976 Olympics, so maybe it was only seasonal service in support of that even. As far as I knew, only US Air and Continental Express/United Express ever served the route.

    I remember AC doing CLE-YUL but don't the time frame and would have guessed a 1:30pm departure. Thinking ads were like "pulling the stops out to Montreal"
     
    joeman
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:34 am

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    Anyway, I do agree with his belief that Burke should down due to its lack of use and required need for subsidies. It's going to lose even more money this year with COVID-19.

    Totally agree, even if it's only a park area considering downtown living, or a marina area or a blend/portion for a more pleasant docking area for the increasing great lakes cruise business before all this/or if it even comes back after 40+ stops originally scheduled in 2020 , but only if we're not back to the planet/environment will dead in less than 12 years now thing without substantial action if or when this all ends..
     
    MohawkWeekend
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:01 pm

    The problem with shutting down Burke now is you'd probably have to come up with $20 million to buy out the 3 or 4 hangers and operators.
    It's too bad they couldn't find more uses for the facility. Maybe if they closed the shorter parallel, they could put something on that narrow strip of land that would free up. How about Million dollar homes with a hanger attached like that airport in Florida where Travolta kept his 707? : )
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      CLEguy
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:33 pm

      joeman wrote:
      CLEguy wrote:
      Does anyone else remember or can confirm that Air Canada once served CLE-YUL nonstop. I came across an old PD article and AC ad mentioning CLE-YUL service starting April 25, 1976, flight 702, departing CLE at 1:40 p.m. The ad also mentions the 1976 Olympics, so maybe it was only seasonal service in support of that even. As far as I knew, only US Air and Continental Express/United Express ever served the route.

      I remember AC doing CLE-YUL but don't the time frame and would have guessed a 1:30pm departure. Thinking ads were like "pulling the stops out to Montreal"


      What a great memory! The ad said, "We've pulled out all the stops to Montreal." Wonder how long the service actually lasted.
       
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      CLEguy
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:22 pm

      MohawkWeekend wrote:
      Just finished reading the thesis report. Interesting but there were a couple of things I question. Cleveland's Regional Airport System is more than CLE and BKL. He briefly mentions Cuyahoga County, no mention of Lorain County or Freedom Field. He spent a lot of time discussing the destruction of the Riverside Community by the airport in the 70's - 80's as a bad thing. Until the last 727 and DC-9 were retired, who in their right mind wanted to live there? I lived in WestPark briefly in the 80's. The better housing and neighborhoods were always north of Lorain Rd and further from the noise. I also think a lot of the reduction in aircraft movements at both CLE and BKL were more due to the collapse of light general aviation (flight training and owner operated single and light twins) They hardly exist anymore. He inferred that it was due to declining population and the weaker economy. His report did discuss UAL pullback role too. But I believe he is counting all airfield moments in his numbers which makes it look worse than it is.
      Anyway, I do agree with his belief that Burke should down due to its lack of use and required need for subsidies. It's going to lose even more money this year with COVID-19.


      I read the entire thesis as well. Not bad for a young scholar (not even sure he's from Cleveland either). I guess it added something to the overall literature of "smart decline" in the context of an overbuilt, costly airport system in a region in decline (let's face it, Cleveland is still in decline relative to most other large metro areas, albeit at a much slower, more manageable pace than in the 1970s-1980s). He specifically chose to focus on the region's main airports, which makes sense, given that they're both owned and managed by the City of Cleveland, but does mention CGF specifically when talking about closing Burke. He also included the Riverside discussion as part of an appendix, not the main body of his thesis, with the apparent intent of reminding all planners and citizens of the sometimes hidden, human and economic impacts of a "development at all costs" approach. Just look at what the Interstate highway system did to thriving Cleveland neighborhoods, connected with effective public transportation (including trolleys, buses and the rapid) in the1950s and 1960s; we're still living with the damaging aftermath of those horrible, in my humble opinion, decisions to this day.

      I also think a more thorough discussion of the fundamental changes to the commercial aviation system would be helpful to understanding the decline in aircraft movements at CLE and BKL, including the impact of 9/11, the great recession, and now, unfortunately COVID-19, on the airline business, including it's consolidation. Also, more discussion of CLE's upswing in traffic, mentioned only tangentially, as well as its improving financial situation and bond rating, along with the upcoming new master plan (perhaps this wasn't announced when the thesis was being written?) would add greatly to this paper. Perhaps an addendum or part 2 could be written?

      Finally, his discussion of the fate of BKL was pretty good. Dealing with the FAA and costs to move tenants to CLE, CGF, or other airports could be very tricky. Although I'm an aviation/airport fanatic and remember the good ol' days when BKL had decent commercial air traffic, I think BKL is largely redundant, but am not certain of what to do with the land, if it were to be closed. Until the Cleveland region actually starts growing again, I don't think there is much demand for a large-scale mixed use development on the lakefront. As with new retail development in the region, it would simply cannibalize other residential and shopping areas of the county and leave them empty eyesores and additional examples of decline. Some sort of green space might make more sense, although it would be brutal to visit several months of the year. Provisions could be made to develop parts of the land should demand arise in the future.

      Overall, this was an interesting paper. Glad I have some extra time to read, research, and dig into the archives a bit, especially since there is little positive aviation news currently.
       
      masseybrown
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:16 pm

      CLEguy wrote:
      ... a region in decline (let's face it, Cleveland is still in decline relative to most other large metro areas, albeit at a much slower, more manageable pace than in the 1970s-1980s).


      Cleveland, city and region, is in decline ONLY in terms of a persistent drop in total population. Lately the drop is very small. By just about every other economic and demographic measure, for the past couple of years the place is just short of booming. The workforce, both total and employed, is higher than ten years ago. The education level is higher. The income level is higher. The regional GDP is higher. Income tax revenues in the city are at record levels, showing a growth of a couple billion dollars (annually) in earned income in the past three years. Building permits are up. Etc, etc. All this, as well as reduced fares, produced the record O&D traffic at now-hubless CLE.

      That one nagging statistic seems to give the city a big but totally undeserved black eye.
       
      joeman
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:28 pm

      CLEguy wrote:
      joeman wrote:
      CLEguy wrote:
      Does anyone else remember or can confirm that Air Canada once served CLE-YUL nonstop. I came across an old PD article and AC ad mentioning CLE-YUL service starting April 25, 1976, flight 702, departing CLE at 1:40 p.m. The ad also mentions the 1976 Olympics, so maybe it was only seasonal service in support of that even. As far as I knew, only US Air and Continental Express/United Express ever served the route.

      I remember AC doing CLE-YUL but don't the time frame and would have guessed a 1:30pm departure. Thinking ads were like "pulling the stops out to Montreal"


      What a great memory! The ad said, "We've pulled out all the stops to Montreal." Wonder how long the service actually lasted.

      lol....don't know how I pulled that one out!

      On BKL, I'd kinda hate to see it go but if it's a money pit, well Chi town is surviving without Meigs
       
      ncflyer
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:08 pm

      One aspect of BKL that makes it difficult to work as a park-- it has very poor connectivity to the city-- no connectivity between 9th and 55th, and a decent distance from the newly sprouting apartments around town. An argument to be made that it would only serve suburbanites with cars, and not people who live in the city, even people who live 5 minutes away as the crow flies just can't get there easily. Roughly 2 miles. Damn shame that CLE like so many cities is cut up by highways.
       
      greenair727
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:01 am

      joeman wrote:
      On BKL, I'd kinda hate to see it go but if it's a money pit, well Chi town is surviving without Meigs


      BKL is not a money pit and it serves a dedicated aviation market in the city. Signature Aviation just built a brand new terminal there (an 18,000-square-foot hangar, and 8,000 square feet for terminal operations, including a passenger waiting area and a car rental counter, as well as Signature Flight’s offices). BKL also is the hub of Cleveland Clinic aviation operations. Many other corporate operations use BKL and tenants pay rent both at the Terminal and on the field. Moreover, to say, " Chi town is surviving without Meigs" is not a valid comparison. Meigs was tiny and could never handle the operations that Burke does. A 757 at Meigs? Not possible. If you want to use Chicago as a reference point, then use Midway. Its longest runway (6522 feet) is STILL shorter than Burke's (6604 feet) but at least it's a fairer comparison than tiny Meigs. Also, removing Meigs still left Chicago with a primary and secondary airport. Burke IS Cleveland's secondary airport, so if you want to make a Chicago comparison then equate removing Burke with eliminating Meigs AND Midway.
       
      corn4ahead
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:21 am

      greenair727 wrote:
      joeman wrote:
      On BKL, I'd kinda hate to see it go but if it's a money pit, well Chi town is surviving without Meigs


      BKL is not a money pit and it serves a dedicated aviation market in the city. Signature Aviation just built a brand new terminal there (an 18,000-square-foot hangar, and 8,000 square feet for terminal operations, including a passenger waiting area and a car rental counter, as well as Signature Flight’s offices). BKL also is the hub of Cleveland Clinic aviation operations. Many other corporate operations use BKL and tenants pay rent both at the Terminal and on the field. Moreover, to say, " Chi town is surviving without Meigs" is not a valid comparison. Meigs was tiny and could never handle the operations that Burke does. A 757 at Meigs? Not possible. If you want to use Chicago as a reference point, then use Midway. Its longest runway (6522 feet) is STILL shorter than Burke's (6604 feet) but at least it's a fairer comparison than tiny Meigs. Also, removing Meigs still left Chicago with a primary and secondary airport. Burke IS Cleveland's secondary airport, so if you want to make a Chicago comparison then equate removing Burke with eliminating Meigs AND Midway.


      I think a more even comparison is PWK or DPA than MDW. Overall, good points though.
       
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      CLEguy
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:38 pm

      greenair727 wrote:
      joeman wrote:
      On BKL, I'd kinda hate to see it go but if it's a money pit, well Chi town is surviving without Meigs


      BKL is not a money pit and it serves a dedicated aviation market in the city. Signature Aviation just built a brand new terminal there (an 18,000-square-foot hangar, and 8,000 square feet for terminal operations, including a passenger waiting area and a car rental counter, as well as Signature Flight’s offices). BKL also is the hub of Cleveland Clinic aviation operations. Many other corporate operations use BKL and tenants pay rent both at the Terminal and on the field. Moreover, to say, " Chi town is surviving without Meigs" is not a valid comparison. Meigs was tiny and could never handle the operations that Burke does. A 757 at Meigs? Not possible. If you want to use Chicago as a reference point, then use Midway. Its longest runway (6522 feet) is STILL shorter than Burke's (6604 feet) but at least it's a fairer comparison than tiny Meigs. Also, removing Meigs still left Chicago with a primary and secondary airport. Burke IS Cleveland's secondary airport, so if you want to make a Chicago comparison then equate removing Burke with eliminating Meigs AND Midway.


      The point is, Hopkins and the Cleveland area does not need a secondary or reliever airport the size of Burke. It could be argued that the region's secondary airport is actually CAK. Also, Chicago's CMSA's population is roughly 3x greater than Cleveland's and air traffic with essentially 3 hubs (UA, AA, WN) is over 10x more than CLE & CAK combined. Cleveland's airspace and runway systems have so much excess capacity now and will for the foreseeable future.
       
      MohawkWeekend
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:21 pm

      Did they lengthen Burke's runway? I looked at the chart and it does say 6604 feet. Wasn't it always 6,200 and then they shortened it a bit for the EMATS?
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        CLEguy
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        Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

        Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:31 pm

        Never saw this data before, but it's on the BKL website: https://www.burkeairport.com/about/facts-figures

        Ultimate Air Shuttle Passengers - BKL (Enplaned and Deplaned)

        2015: 2,381
        2016: 16,231
        2017: 20,625
        2018: 22,160
        2019: 22,590

        *Note: Ultimate Air Shuttle inaugurated Cleveland BKL service to Cincinatti LUK on October 26, 2015
         
        masseybrown
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        Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

        Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:14 pm

        joeman wrote:
        On BKL, I'd kinda hate to see it go but if it's a money pit, well Chi town is surviving without Meigs


        If BKL is closed (and eventually I think it will be, but what's the rush?), the county must overcome the NIMBYs who prevent CGF from getting a useful runway extension. The city needs an executive airport apart from CLE.

        BKL as a money pit: according to the city Dept of Port Control, BKL loses between $1 and 2 million a year, but that includes depreciation; so it's probably cash positive or close to it.
         
        MohawkWeekend
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        Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

        Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:41 pm

        I was on the Burke website and saw on their history page that the runway was lengthened.
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          greenair727
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          Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

          Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:58 pm

          ^from 2013-2016, nice list of improvements each year--too bad that list of annual activities did not continue, 2017-present.
           
          avtcle
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          Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

          Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:19 pm

          https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.clevel ... utType=amp

          “CLEVELAND, Ohio (WOIO) -Cleveland Hopkins International Airport will receive a $2.9 million federal grant money to construct a new runway, the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) announced on Thursday.”
           
          MohawkWeekend
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          Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

          Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:47 pm

          Is that enough money for a helipad? Maybe they are bringing back 28L-10R :D

          I was trying to find an old chart of CLE that showed 28L but was unable. On one website of closed and forgotten airports, I saw the sectional for Cleveland around 1960that showed the longest runway was 6400 and it looked like it was 18-36. There was also a runway that ran what looked like 12-30. Does anyone know if that was an active runway?
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            N766UA
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            Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

            Fri May 01, 2020 12:36 am

            avtcle wrote:
            https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cleveland19.com/2020/04/30/cleveland-hopkins-international-get-additional-million-federal-funding/%3foutputType=amp

            “CLEVELAND, Ohio (WOIO) -Cleveland Hopkins International Airport will receive a $2.9 million federal grant money to construct a new runway, the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) announced on Thursday.”


            24L is due for a repave.
             
            corn4ahead
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            Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

            Fri May 01, 2020 1:57 pm

            avtcle wrote:
            https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cleveland19.com/2020/04/30/cleveland-hopkins-international-get-additional-million-federal-funding/%3foutputType=amp

            “CLEVELAND, Ohio (WOIO) -Cleveland Hopkins International Airport will receive a $2.9 million federal grant money to construct a new runway, the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) announced on Thursday.”


            I guarantee it costs more than $2.9 million to repave a runway. Also, 24L is currently close through October for the new taxiway construction.
             
            MohawkWeekend
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            Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

            Fri May 01, 2020 2:27 pm

            I know this is a time when the airport is trying to save money but....... wouldnt this be the time to clean 24R-10L of the tire residue from all the landings? I saw a show on TV where the Germans have a machine they use a Frankfurt to water blast off the tire residue. They do it annually - has CLE ever ? It was amazing how much rubber was on the runway. Wouldn't hurt too to redo all the runway markings.
            Maybe we can crowdfund it
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              CLEguy
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              Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

              Fri May 01, 2020 3:44 pm

              MohawkWeekend wrote:
              Is that enough money for a helipad? Maybe they are bringing back 28L-10R :D
              I was trying to find an old chart of CLE that showed 28L but was unable. On one website of closed and forgotten airports, I saw the sectional for Cleveland around 1960that showed the longest runway was 6400 and it looked like it was 18-36. There was also a runway that ran what looked like 12-30. Does anyone know if that was an active runway?


              Do you have a link to that website? It is very hard to find old runway configurations online! I bet CLE has them in an archive somewhere.

              Here's a view before the new 6L/24R was built: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... e_view.png

              Here's a view from April 1974 that shows 10L/28R, but I don't see 10R/28L anywhere. There is also an 18L/36R! https://catalog.archives.gov/id/17419791
               
              goCOgo
              Posts: 709
              Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:24 am

              Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

              Fri May 01, 2020 4:01 pm

              This site has a view of the airport in 1959 and 1971 (plus a lot of other fun historic maps): https://arcgis-content.maps.arcgis.com/ ... 61,41.5098
              "Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
               
              MohawkWeekend
              Posts: 353
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              Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

              Fri May 01, 2020 5:23 pm

              Really good website - http://www.airfields-freeman.com/.

              Has al ot of the airports I flew into when I learned to fly on the early 70's
                300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
                 
                User avatar
                flyPIT
                Posts: 1975
                Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                Fri May 01, 2020 5:25 pm

                1956:
                Image


                1959:
                Image


                1960:
                Image


                1961:
                Image


                1966:
                Image


                1967:
                Image


                These were all taken from this Flickr account:
                https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id= ... 1&text=cle
                FLYi
                 
                MohawkWeekend
                Posts: 353
                Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

                Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                Fri May 01, 2020 7:12 pm

                Thanks flyPit! Those are so cool. Does anyone know why they closed that diagonal runway? Looks like the first jets into CLE were in 1960? Interesting that the approach lights were on 5L back in 1961. Still no sign of 28L. It was and is now the taxiway from the D concourse circle out to 5/23. I just remember seeing the markings for 28L when we would hang out in the second floor of the D concourse circle.

                In hindsight, think how much money CLE could have saved if they hadn't built the completely new 6L-24R. They could have just lengthened the old 5L/23R to 9000 feet and modified the thresholds for 5R/23L to 8000'. Would have gained alot of the capacity Continental wanted without the $500 million dollar cost. (None of that massive landworks to move the creek etc).
                The airport would have probably been debt free now. Still should have sent the bill to United.
                  300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
                   
                  User avatar
                  CLEguy
                  Posts: 380
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                  Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                  Fri May 01, 2020 8:28 pm

                  flyPIT wrote:
                  These were all taken from this Flickr account:
                  https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id= ... 1&text=cle


                  These are great. I tried like crazy to find something similar. Thanks so much flyPIT!
                   
                  User avatar
                  flyPIT
                  Posts: 1975
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                  Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                  Fri May 01, 2020 9:03 pm

                  CLEguy wrote:
                  These are great. I tried like crazy to find something similar. Thanks so much flyPIT!

                  You're welcome!
                  FLYi
                   
                  User avatar
                  CLEguy
                  Posts: 380
                  Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

                  Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                  Fri May 01, 2020 9:16 pm

                  MohawkWeekend wrote:
                  Thanks flyPit! Those are so cool. Does anyone know why they closed that diagonal runway? Looks like the first jets into CLE were in 1960? Interesting that the approach lights were on 5L back in 1961. Still no sign of 28L. It was and is now the taxiway from the D concourse circle out to 5/23. I just remember seeing the markings for 28L when we would hang out in the second floor of the D concourse circle.

                  In hindsight, think how much money CLE could have saved if they hadn't built the completely new 6L-24R. They could have just lengthened the old 5L/23R to 9000 feet and modified the thresholds for 5R/23L to 8000'. Would have gained alot of the capacity Continental wanted without the $500 million dollar cost. (None of that massive landworks to move the creek etc).
                  The airport would have probably been debt free now. Still should have sent the bill to United.


                  I was surprised that the ILS was on the old 5L, too. I think 5R/23L became the main runway when it was stretched to 8,999 feet in 1966 to become the primary jet runway. I bet they closed that diagonal runway because it was unneeded and greatly complicated the airfield. Remember, the reason to build a new parallel runway was to increase the distance between the runways to allow for more or less simultaneous operations. When 6L/24R was completed, there were actually 3 sets of parallels for a while until 6C/24C was decommissioned. Do you mean the second floor of the old "banjo" at the end of the C concourse? I remember going there a as kid, too. It was always kind of eerily empty up there. Was this originally going to be a restaurant space?

                  According to my research UA started jet service at CLE on July 24, 1960 with a nonstop flight from ORD on a Boeing "707-720" (was this the original designation of the B720?). The flight turned around and departed Hopkins on a CLE-ORD-DEN-LAX routing. The flight took about 6 hours total, with 4.5 hours flying time. United had a big "Jetarama" weekend on July 30-31, 1960 to show off a new "Jet Mainliner" (the pic from the PD shows a beautiful DC-8, while the article prior to the event mentioned the B720) along with 3 big tents on the tarmac showing off the speed and glamor of jet travel.

                  Not to be undone was AA's inaugural flight on July 31, 1960, also on a "B707-720," this time nonstop CLE-LAX in 5 hours, departing at 6:30 p.m. and arriving at 8:30 p.m. The AA ad mentions a choice between "de luxe Mercury service or economical Royal Coachman" for only $108.55, the equivalent of $947(!!) today.
                   
                  MohawkWeekend
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                  Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                  Fri May 01, 2020 9:59 pm

                  They couldn't have lengthen the diagonal runway without going over Brookpark Road and NASA. It's still a taxiway i think. Re the banjo - My brother and I would spend hours on the second floor.. I was never sure what is was supposed to be when they built it. Nobody bothered us and we'd plug in our VHF radio and listen to the tower.

                  I think we and the city drank the kool aid on the runway separation. How often did you see parallel ops even during the CO hay-days? If PHIL/SFO could run with 2 runways close together, CLE could have too. But it's hindsight now.

                  $947 for a Coach product that is probably equal to today's F. They probably got fed twice in Coach
                    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
                     
                    masseybrown
                    Posts: 5585
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                    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                    Sat May 02, 2020 2:40 pm

                    MohawkWeekend wrote:
                    In hindsight, think how much money CLE could have saved if they hadn't built the completely new 6L-24R.


                    Runways are paid for by the FAA Airport and Airways Trust Fund through some federal excise taxes. CLE wouldn't have saved anything directly.
                     
                    Trk1
                    Posts: 165
                    Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:37 pm

                    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                    Sat May 02, 2020 3:27 pm

                    While we are in no mans land on the future was thinking about what longer term Hopkins cuts will be and I will guess the following:
                    1. The first hubs to cut out right could be SLC, MIA, BWI and DL to BOS B6 to FLL
                    2. non hubs on majors: AA to LGA/JFK. DL: BDL/RDU. UA: CHS,TPA,FLL, RSW. SW: MKE,STL and weekend flights to Florida
                    3. Spirit: all shorter flights to Southeast cities, Bos, Msy Frontier cuts to Den, Southeast cities and fringe Florida cities. Alligent: who knows
                    4. Burke will have no service
                     
                    krod031
                    Posts: 178
                    Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:49 am

                    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                    Sat May 02, 2020 3:31 pm

                    Sun Country pushed back its MSP service to July 3rd.
                     
                    MohawkWeekend
                    Posts: 353
                    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

                    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                    Sat May 02, 2020 5:03 pm

                    Are you sure? According to what I've been able to find on the Internet the FAA only provided a small percentage of the funding for the runway ($149 million). The other almost 1 billion came from the CIty That's how the Airport got all that debt that has lingered and hurt the airport for years.
                    Much of Cleveland's debt stems from the construction, nearly two decades ago, of a new runway, Concourse D and the purchase of the I-X Center.
                    See below last paragraph-


                    PROJECT TYPE
                    Major airport expansion and upgrade
                    LOCATION
                    Cleveland, Ohio, USA
                    ESTIMATED INVESTMENT
                    $1.4 billionExpand
                    Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, which is located in Cleveland, Ohio, US, underwent a $1.5bn expansion and renovation programme during 2001-05 to increase its capacity to meet growing travel demand. In 2010, it handled 9.49 million passengers.

                    The airport, which is owned by the City of Cleveland, is a hub for Continental Airlines. International destinations including Canada, the Caribbean, Mexico, Puerto Rico and the UK. The airport has received an exceptional rating from Federal Aviation Administration six times.

                    In 1997, a masterplan was formulated, based on the most important requirement – a new parallel runway that could facilitate electronically aided simultaneous takeoff and landing operations. This runway, 6L-24R, became operational in early 2004.
                    As well as a new runway, the masterplan included improvements to the terminal, parking garages and roadways. A new deicing facility and a maintenance centre were commissioned in 2002.

                    Planning the Cleveland Hopkins expansion
                    A major problem faced by the Program Management Team – a joint venture partnership headed up by Parsons Transportation Group, a US-wide construction company – concerned the airport’s location.

                    "Over $60m was invested to protect the valuable natural habitats around the airport. "
                    Cleveland Hopkins airport is surrounded on all sides by the Rocky River Reservation Park and Gorge to the south and west, Highway I-480 and State Route 17 to the north, NASA Glen Rocket Engine Test Facility (RETF) to the west, and State Route 237 and Ford Motor Engine and Assembly Plant to the east. Expansion outside the airport boundaries was not an option.

                    Over 20 projects were identified to overcome the many obstacles facing the construction of the new runway in the existing area. It included the relocation of some NASA buildings and several surrounding businesses in Brookpark Road. The relocation project started in 2001 and was finished in 2004.

                    Over $60m was invested to protect the valuable natural habitats around the airport. When construction was completed, more than 350 acres of wetlands and 30,000ft of streams had been preserved.

                    Federal Aviation Administration invested $69m for construction of a new ATC tower and TRACON radar facility in the airport.

                    Funding the expansion project
                    Funding of the $1.5bn project has come from many sources, including the City of Cleveland, (Federal, State, local and user communities – involving a federally backed $149m letter of intent), general aviation revenue bonds, passenger facility charges and airline-supported rates and charges.
                      300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
                       
                      MohawkWeekend
                      Posts: 353
                      Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

                      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                      Sun May 03, 2020 12:01 am

                      The cost of the new runway and who paid for it got me to do some researching on the whole 1990's/2000 expansion. I was able to find more information collaborating that Cleveland did pay the majority of the costs for 6L-24R.

                      From the Lorain Morning Journal
                      Cleveland begins runway in Hopkins Airport expansion
                      May 23, 2001
                      The 15-year project is intended to increase the number of flights at the city-owned airport, which is near capacity. The expansion will be financed mainly with $148 million in federal funds and the sale of $573 million in airport construction bonds. "

                      What was more eyeopening was a story in the Cleveland Scene about the purchase of the IX Center from the Park Corp for $66 million dollars. (Part of the land swap with Brook Park) Thankfully they did not double the bad investment by tearing the IX Center down. At least now, the City is collecting some rent although it will never pay off for the city. There was also monies spent for a new airport field maintenance facility, terminal upgrades, the underground connector between C and D, Concourse D and a Parking Garage. The City also spent $ 40 million dollars to lengthen 24L-6R 2000 feet for displaced thresholds and $60 million dollars to move the creek for the runway construction. They also paid to move the CEI High Tension lines that supply power to NASA.
                        300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
                         
                        masseybrown
                        Posts: 5585
                        Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

                        Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                        Sun May 03, 2020 5:30 am

                        MohawkWeekend wrote:
                        The cost of the new runway and who paid for it got me to do some researching on the whole 1990's/2000 expansion. I was able to find more information collaborating that Cleveland did pay the majority of the costs for 6L-24R.


                        From the FAA Grant Aid program summaries: Cleveland got the following amounts
                        To construct runway 5L-23R
                        FY2001 - $27.6 million
                        FY2002 - $7.7
                        FY2003 - $10.48
                        FY2004 - $10.3
                        Name change to 6L-24R
                        FY2005 - $9.6 million
                        To extend 6L-24R
                        FY 2006 - $17.9 million
                        FY 2007 - $19.7

                        https://www.faa.gov/airports/aip/grant_ ... s/#history

                        Trust me (or read the rules of AIP funding at the FAA site :smile: ), the Feds pay for runways, taxiways, aprons, navigational aids, noise mitigation, and a variety of other things. The newspapers saying "Cleveland pays" is just lazy reporting. The only time Cleveland would pay for a runway is if the FAA said it was unjustified and Cleveland built it anyway. Cleveland pays for the terminal, parking, roadways, hangars, etc.
                         
                        avtcle
                        Posts: 349
                        Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

                        Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                        Tue May 05, 2020 11:33 pm

                        Cleveland Load Factors January 2020:

                        United Airlines
                        CLE-LGA: 52%
                        CLE-EWR: 73%
                        CLE-DCA: 57%
                        CLE-IAD: 87%
                        CLE-MCO: 94%
                        CLE-FLL: 65%
                        CLE-RSW: 74%
                        CLE-ORD: 80%
                        CLE-DEN: 86%
                        CLE-IAH: 82%
                        CLE-LAX: 90%
                        CLE-SFO: 76%

                        Frontier Airlines
                        CLE-SRQ: 86%
                        CLE-MCO: 88%
                        CLE-MIA: 68%
                        CLE-FLL: 74%
                        CLE-TPA: 78%
                        CLE-RSW: 84%
                        CLE-DEN: 78%
                        CLE-LAS: 89% (Good load for 10x weekly)
                        CLE-PHX: 93%
                        CLE-PBI: 61%
                        CLE-CUN: 88% (2019-10. First time Frontier has had this market to themselves... and it saw big improvements)

                        Spirit Airlines
                        CLE-MCO: 82%
                        CLE-FLL: 67%
                        CLE-TPA: 71%
                        CLE-RSW: 70%
                        CLE-MSY: 66%
                        CLE-LAS: 87%
                        CLE-LAX: 83%
                        CLE-ATL: 76%

                        Allegiant Air
                        CLE-SAV: 80%
                        CLE-SRQ: 76%
                        CLE-PGD: 90%
                        CLE-PIE: 79%

                        JetBlue Airways
                        CLE-BOS: 72%
                        CLE-FLL: 66% (Frontier looks to have taken quite a hit at their market share this winter)


                        Southwest Airlines
                        CLE-MCO: 95%
                        CLE-FLL: 64%
                        CLE-TPA: 64%
                        CLE-RSW: 83%
                        CLE-MKE: 43%
                        CLE-DAL: 98%
                        CLE-MDW: 66%
                        CLE-DEN: 89%
                        CLE-LAS: 87%
                        CLE-PHX: 82%
                        CLE-ATL: 79%
                        CLE-BNA: 79%
                        CLE-BWI: 67%
                        CLE-STL: 75%

                        American Airlines
                        CLE-LGA: 60%
                        CLE-DCA: 52%
                        CLE-MIA: 84%
                        CLE-DFW: 90%
                        CLE-CLT: 82%
                        CLE-ORD: 83%
                        CLE-PHL: 76%

                        Delta Airlines
                        CLE-LGA: 54%
                        CLE-JFK: 62%
                        CLE-BOS: 45%
                        CLE-ATL: 79%
                        CLE-SLC: 84%
                        CLE-MSP: 82%
                        CLE-DTW: 74%
                        CLE-RDU: 47%
                        CLE-BDL: 42%

                        Air Canada
                        CLE-YYZ: 65% (2019-10)
                         
                        masseybrown
                        Posts: 5585
                        Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

                        Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                        Wed May 06, 2020 5:20 am

                        Terminal D, photo by John Rudder on Twitter - some of the 40+ UA aircraft parked at Hopkins

                        Image
                         
                        EastCoastWing
                        Posts: 16
                        Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:19 pm

                        Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                        Wed May 06, 2020 5:21 pm

                        avtcle wrote:
                        Cleveland Load Factors January 2020:

                        United Airlines
                        CLE-LGA: 52%
                        CLE-EWR: 73%
                        CLE-DCA: 57%
                        CLE-IAD: 87%
                        CLE-MCO: 94%
                        CLE-FLL: 65%
                        CLE-RSW: 74%
                        CLE-ORD: 80%
                        CLE-DEN: 86%
                        CLE-IAH: 82%
                        CLE-LAX: 90%
                        CLE-SFO: 76%

                        Frontier Airlines
                        CLE-SRQ: 86%
                        CLE-MCO: 88%
                        CLE-MIA: 68%
                        CLE-FLL: 74%
                        CLE-TPA: 78%
                        CLE-RSW: 84%
                        CLE-DEN: 78%
                        CLE-LAS: 89% (Good load for 10x weekly)
                        CLE-PHX: 93%
                        CLE-PBI: 61%
                        CLE-CUN: 88% (2019-10. First time Frontier has had this market to themselves... and it saw big improvements)

                        Spirit Airlines
                        CLE-MCO: 82%
                        CLE-FLL: 67%
                        CLE-TPA: 71%
                        CLE-RSW: 70%
                        CLE-MSY: 66%
                        CLE-LAS: 87%
                        CLE-LAX: 83%
                        CLE-ATL: 76%

                        Allegiant Air
                        CLE-SAV: 80%
                        CLE-SRQ: 76%
                        CLE-PGD: 90%
                        CLE-PIE: 79%

                        JetBlue Airways
                        CLE-BOS: 72%
                        CLE-FLL: 66% (Frontier looks to have taken quite a hit at their market share this winter)


                        Southwest Airlines
                        CLE-MCO: 95%
                        CLE-FLL: 64%
                        CLE-TPA: 64%
                        CLE-RSW: 83%
                        CLE-MKE: 43%
                        CLE-DAL: 98%
                        CLE-MDW: 66%
                        CLE-DEN: 89%
                        CLE-LAS: 87%
                        CLE-PHX: 82%
                        CLE-ATL: 79%
                        CLE-BNA: 79%
                        CLE-BWI: 67%
                        CLE-STL: 75%

                        American Airlines
                        CLE-LGA: 60%
                        CLE-DCA: 52%
                        CLE-MIA: 84%
                        CLE-DFW: 90%
                        CLE-CLT: 82%
                        CLE-ORD: 83%
                        CLE-PHL: 76%

                        Delta Airlines
                        CLE-LGA: 54%
                        CLE-JFK: 62%
                        CLE-BOS: 45%
                        CLE-ATL: 79%
                        CLE-SLC: 84%
                        CLE-MSP: 82%
                        CLE-DTW: 74%
                        CLE-RDU: 47%
                        CLE-BDL: 42%

                        Air Canada
                        CLE-YYZ: 65% (2019-10)


                        That F9 load factor on CLE-SRQ is not surprising at all...F9 loads next to our gate at SRQ and the 321 going to CLE always seemed packed on the days it operated. Glad to see it appeared to be a pretty successful route...and also amazing how things have changed at Hopkins since I was an intern there in the early '90s! The ULCC Concourse A used to be the home of AA, TW, US back in the day...
                         
                        Nicknuzzii
                        Posts: 1554
                        Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

                        Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

                        Wed May 06, 2020 5:56 pm

                        F9 seems to be the only carrier that does decent from CLE.

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