jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:11 pm

fun2fly wrote:
Kennedy specifically mentions needs to the west coast so SEA, LAX and SAN come to mind, all of which have been thoroughly discussed for many years. AS seems to have success in surrounding areas so why not CLE?

DL is expanding a lot, so why not CLE>SEA (except that SLC flight would be affected)? PDX, SAN are a real pipe dream.

AA or DL to LAX? Potentially, but what does 1x daily do for them.

From a corporate contract perspective, DL is making a big case in CLE to be #1 choice with for CLE pax with NYC, BOS, ATL, MSP (S-W), etc. Adding SEA and LAX would firmly put them in the corporate contract lead. SEA for TPAC + LAX for obvious demand + connectivity to HI and SYD, etc. Does DL want to go full in at CLE? Sure seems easier here than fighting it out in towns with a lot of competition.


I have previously mentioned that AS is more likely to add CLE-SEA nonstop service than DL is since most of the domestic nonstop routes that have been added by DL out of SEA in the last 6 years were to destinations that were already served nonstop out of SEA on AS.

I agree that DL adding CLE-SEA nonstop service might be a possibility due to DL having a hub at SEA, even though it seems that DL is unlikely to add CLE-SEA before AS does with most of DL's domestic nonstop routes out of SEA being to destinations that AS already serves nonstop from SEA.

I agree that AA adding CLE-LAX is a possibility due to AA having more market share at LAX than any other airline and AA already serving LAX nonstop from ORD, CMH, IND, OMA, and STL in the Midwest.

I also agree that DL adding CLE-LAX nonstop service is a possibility due to DL already serving LAX nonstop from CVG, CMH, DTW, IND, MCI, MSP, and OMA in the Midwest.

WN adding CLE-LAX nonstop service is also a possibility with CLE being one of the top destinations that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from LAX and with LAX being one of the largest WN focus cities that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from CLE. WN also has a FF base in the CLE market to support CLE-LAX nonstop service on WN due to WN operating a few nonstop routes such as CLE-BWI/MKE/BNA/PHX/STL that aren't served nonstop out of CLE by any of the US3 carriers.
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:25 pm

greenair727 wrote:
WN to HOU?


I agree that WN adding CLE-HOU nonstop service might happen with HOU being one of the top destinations that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from CLE and with WN previously stating that it was considering adding CLE-HOU nonstop service back in October 2017.

In addition to CLE-HOU, WN could also add nonstop service to AUS, MCI, and SAN out of CLE.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:24 pm

In an article about CAK (Akron-Canton Airport passenger numbers drop again in 2019, but CEO is optimistic for a rebound : https://www.crainscleveland.com/sue-wal ... ic-rebound) yesterday, it states:

"....In March, CAK will add a new business-class option to American's service to New York LaGuardia Airport. Camacho said United's recent decision to drop service from Cleveland Hopkins International Airport to LaGuardia and Reagan National Airport in Washington, D.C., presents an opportunity for CAK, which has carriers flying nonstop to those destinations...".

AA offers one flight each to LGA and DCA. As slots are so precious, do you think AA will move those two flights to Hopkins?
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:27 pm

It also present an opportunity for CLE, which has carriers flying nonstop to those destinations. He’s says it like CLE has no service there now :lol:
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:57 pm

Its also an opportunity for any of the airlines with slots at LGA and DCA. JetBlue could jump on this moment and enter the CLE-NYC market with CLE-LGA service by dropping 3 or 4 frequencies elsewhere in their system from LGA. If anyone knows anyone in route planning there, please tell them.
 
CleSyrRoc
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:16 pm

Honestly, the MAX situation has put the market into such a flux its hard to make predictions about much anymore, it really has thrown the usual free-market economcis of US aviation out the window.

If it was a couple years ago, I'd have predicted DL would have announced increased LGA and new service to DCA the day after the UA announcement canceling their services.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:50 pm

Actually, I'd rather CAK not lose their DCA/LGA flights on AA to CLE as those still serve the metro Cleveland market if CLE can replace the lost UA capacity from elsewhere. I just realized Columbus has 6 flights each on DL and AA to LGA and AA has 5 daily to DCA. Some of those should be shifted to Cleveland to replace the lost UA service.
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:19 pm

CleSyrRoc wrote:
Honestly, the MAX situation has put the market into such a flux its hard to make predictions about much anymore, it really has thrown the usual free-market economcis of US aviation out the window.

If it was a couple years ago, I'd have predicted DL would have announced increased LGA and new service to DCA the day after the UA announcement canceling their services.


Unlike AA, WN, and UA who have had to make some cuts due to the 737 MAX grounding, DL did not have to make any 737 MAX grounding related cuts since (a) DL didn't have any 737 MAX planes in its fleet and (b) DL doesn't currently have any 737 MAX planes on order.

DL is unlikely to add CLE-DCA nonstop service since DL has had to reduce frequencies on other nonstop routes out of DCA in order to accommodate DCA-BOS nonstop service.

WN adding CLE-DCA nonstop service might be a possibility if WN had enough slots at DCA due to WN having a big presence in the WAS market due to WN's BWI focus city, but WN is already using its DCA slots on other nonstop routes out of DCA.

DL upgauging some CLE-LGA nonstop flights to mainline from regional jets is certainly a possibility as DL has a hub at LGA and a FF base in the NYC market to support nonstop mainline flights to LGA from CLE.

B6 adding CLE-JFK nonstop service is also a possibility with CLE being one of the largest markets in the U.S. that doesn't currently have nonstop LCC service to NYC. B6 also already has a FF base in the NYC market to support CLE-JFK nonstop service on B6.

G4, F9, or NK adding CLE-EWR nonstop service might also be a possibility with UA currently being the only airline serving EWR nonstop from CLE and with no ULCC's currently serving the NYC market nonstop from CLE.

B6, G4, F9, and NK also have not had to make any 737 MAX-grounding related cuts due to these 4 airlines not having any Boeing 737 planes in their fleets and due to these 4 airlines not currently having any orders for Boeing 737 MAX planes.
 
kavok
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:02 pm

If DL wasn’t so gate constrained at both LAX and SEA, I could see them adding CLE. But unfortunately they are, which means it makes more sense for DL to push CLE pax as connections through DTW or SLC, and fly bigger planes from there to LAX.

I actually think a DL flight to Florida or Cancun from CLE is more likely than LAX/SEA. It would give CLE frequent flyers who switch to DL a place where they can use their miles. Other than that, all CLE is likely to see from DL in the near future is more frequencies and upgauging to ATL/DTW/MSP/SLC... and maybe LGA.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:09 pm

^Florida and the Caribbean are good ideas---to burn those miles--but DL still needs to add business destinations from CLE as well-LAX, SFO, SEA, MCI--to both fill CLE demand and get a better share of CLE business travelers.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:09 pm

WN has double daily CMH DCA so CMH had more seats to DCA even before UA pulled back.


greenair727 wrote:
Actually, I'd rather CAK not lose their DCA/LGA flights on AA to CLE as those still serve the metro Cleveland market if CLE can replace the lost UA capacity from elsewhere. I just realized Columbus has 6 flights each on DL and AA to LGA and AA has 5 daily to DCA. Some of those should be shifted to Cleveland to replace the lost UA service.
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:26 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^Florida and the Caribbean are good ideas---to burn those miles--but DL still needs to add business destinations from CLE as well-LAX, SFO, SEA, MCI--to both fill CLE demand and get a better share of CLE business travelers.


I do not expect DL to add CLE-SFO nonstop service since all of DL's current nonstop routes out of SFO are to DL's hubs or focus cities. There are also only a few U.S. destinations not served nonstop out of SFO on UA that have nonstop service out of SFO on other airlines such as SFO-CLT on AA, SFO-MDW on WN, SFO-CVG on DL, SFO-DAL on AS, and SFO-JFK on AA, DL, and AS.

MCI-CUN is also the only DL nonstop route out of MCI that isn't to a DL hub or focus city, and DL only operates MCI-CUN nonstop service on a seasonal, Saturday-only basis. DL also doesn't currently serve its JFK hub or RDU focus city nonstop from MCI, whereas DL already serves its other hub and focus city airports nonstop from MCI.

On the other hand, WN already serves many non-DL hub destinations nonstop from MCI, including ABQ, AUS, BWI, MDW, DAL, DEN, FLL, RSW, HOU, IND, LAS, MKE, BNA, MSY, OAK, MCO, PHX, STL, SAT, SAN, TPA, and DCA.

WN is more likely to add CLE-MCI nonstop service than DL is since
(a) WN already has a FF base in both the MCI and CLE markets to support CLE-MCI nonstop service,
(b) CLE-BDL and MCI-CUN are currently the only DL nonstop routes out of CLE and MCI that aren't to DL hubs or focus cities,
(c) WN already has nonstop service to some spoke destinations from both CLE and MCI, and
(d) WN would be able to offer connections to some destinations further west from CLE through MCI if it adds CLE-MCI nonstop service whereas DL would be limited to primarily O&D traffic on the CLE-MCI route if it adds CLE-MCI nonstop service.

I had previously mentioned that AS adding CLE-SEA is more likely than DL adding CLE-SEA as most of the domestic nonstop routes that DL added out of SEA in the last 6 years were to markets that were already served by AS.

I agree that DL adding CLE-LAX nonstop service is a possibility with DL already serving LAX nonstop from a few non-DL hub or focus city airports in the Midwest such as CMH, IND, MCI and OMA.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:41 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Actually, I'd rather CAK not lose their DCA/LGA flights on AA to CLE as those still serve the metro Cleveland market if CLE can replace the lost UA capacity from elsewhere. I just realized Columbus has 6 flights each on DL and AA to LGA and AA has 5 daily to DCA. Some of those should be shifted to Cleveland to replace the lost UA service.


CLE-DCA/LGA are not underserved, even with UA gone.
CLE-LGA peaks at 452 PDEW during Q2, and AA/DL will be offering 652 seats per day each way in April
CLE-DCA peaks at 196 PDEW during Q2, and AA will be offering 176 seats per day.

This is not accounting for the seats UA added to EWR/IAD.

Recently WN dropped IND-DCA & B6 dropped BDL-DCA, and there was no response from AA or any other carrier. Slots are precious at DCA, why would you need to add more flights if you already control the market and potential hinder your own yields. More feasibly, I could see AA increasing to all E175 on CLE-DCA.

CMH is the state capital therefore it makes sense it would have more service to DCA.

kavok wrote:
If DL wasn’t so gate constrained at both LAX and SEA, I could see them adding CLE. But unfortunately they are, which means it makes more sense for DL to push CLE pax as connections through DTW or SLC, and fly bigger planes from there to LAX.

I actually think a DL flight to Florida or Cancun from CLE is more likely than LAX/SEA. It would give CLE frequent flyers who switch to DL a place where they can use their miles. Other than that, all CLE is likely to see from DL in the near future is more frequencies and upgauging to ATL/DTW/MSP/SLC... and maybe LGA.


DL recently discontinued its CLE-MCO seasonal flights, along with many other markets. Their appetite for additional Florida flights from non-hub stations doesn't seem strong.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:48 pm

While there are currently very few passengers connecting to CVG from CLE, DL re-adding CLE-CVG nonstop service might be also be a possibility if DL can stimulate enough demand on the CVG-CLE nonstop route.

If DL re-adds CLE-CVG nonstop service, DL would also be able to connect passengers to AUS, CLT, DFW, DEN, FLL, RSW, IAH, MCI, LAS, LAX, MCO, STL, SFO, SEA, and TPA from CLE through CVG.

There was some O&D traffic on the CLE-CVG nonstop route back when DL and CO served CVG nonstop from CLE, but O&D demand decreased on CLE-CVG following the 9/11 attacks. In addition, there had been a further decrease in O&D demand on the CLE-CVG nonstop route due to
(a) DL dropping CLE-CVG nonstop service when it downsized its former CVG hub following the DL-NW merger,
(b) UA dropping CLE-CVG nonstop service back in August 2012 when UA was downsizing its former CLE hub but prior to CLE losing its UA hub status,
(c) DL no longer having a hub at CVG (even though DL still has a focus city at CVG and nonstop service to some non-DL hub destinations out of CVG), and
(d) UA no longer having a hub at CLE.

There are also some domestic nonstop routes within the contiguous U.S. similar in length to CLE-CVG that have significantly higher PDEW's than CLE-CVG.
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:34 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
CLE-DCA/LGA are not underserved, even with UA gone.
CLE-DCA peaks at 196 PDEW during Q2, and AA will be offering 176 seats per day.


While the PDEW on CLE-DCA was higher than the capacity available on AA CLE-DCA nonstop flights in Q2 2019, WN still has nonstop service to BWI in the WAS market out of CLE and UA will still be serving IAD nonstop from CLE once it discontinues CLE-DCA nonstop service.

The PDEW will decrease on CLE-DCA once UA discontinues CLE-DCA nonstop service due to (a) the Q2 2019 PDEW on CLE-DCA being higher than the capacity available on the AA CLE-DCA nonstop flights and (b) AA connecting some passengers to other East Coast destinations from CLE through DCA.

I agree that CLE-DCA will not be underserved once UA discontinues CLE-DCA nonstop service as (a) UA will be able to absorb some of the extra CLE-WAS demand on its CLE-IAD nonstop flights once UA discontinues CLE-DCA nonstop service, (b) WN will be able to absorb some of the extra CLE-WAS demand on its CLE-BWI nonstop flights once UA discontinues CLE-DCA nonstop service, and (c) there are many UA FF's in the WAS market who are willing to fly out of IAD instead of DCA.
Last edited by jplatts on Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:36 pm

jplatts wrote:
There was some O&D traffic on the CLE-CVG nonstop route back when DL and CO served CVG nonstop


You're overlooking the fact that Ultimate Air Shuttle carries about 18,000 pax a year between Cleveland (BKL) and Cincinnati (LUK); it's their biggest route, These public charter numbers don't show up in the usual DoT traffic data. They used to, but no longer.
 
joeman
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:33 am

Midwestindy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Actually, I'd rather CAK not lose their DCA/LGA flights on AA to CLE as those still serve the metro Cleveland market if CLE can replace the lost UA capacity from elsewhere. I just realized Columbus has 6 flights each on DL and AA to LGA and AA has 5 daily to DCA. Some of those should be shifted to Cleveland to replace the lost UA service.


CLE-DCA/LGA are not underserved, even with UA gone.
CLE-LGA peaks at 452 PDEW during Q2, and AA/DL will be offering 652 seats per day each way in April
CLE-DCA peaks at 196 PDEW during Q2, and AA will be offering 176 seats per day.

This is not accounting for the seats UA added to EWR/IAD.

Recently WN dropped IND-DCA & B6 dropped BDL-DCA, and there was no response from AA or any other carrier. Slots are precious at DCA, why would you need to add more flights if you already control the market and potential hinder your own yields. More feasibly, I could see AA increasing to all E175 on CLE-DCA.

CMH is the state capital therefore it makes sense it would have more service to DCA.

.

I believe Midwestindy, that you are a very reasonable contributor and besides a couple folks, wish the CLE thread had more people with positive numbers/data like most all the IND posts :cheerful:
 
CleSyrRoc
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:02 pm

In addition to the good news about AC upgauging, there was good news from NK in Enrila's weekly update:

*NK CLE-CUN JUN 0.2>0.6[0] JUL 0>0.6[0] AUG 0>0.6[0]
NK CLE-DFW JUN 0.3>1.0[1.0] SEP 0>0.3[0.8]
NK CLE-FLL JUN 0.6>2[1.0] JUL 0>2[1.0] AUG 0>2[1.0] SEP 0>0.5[1.2]
Double daily. Appears to be a trend, they always avoided outside Florida.
*NK CLE-LAS APR 1.0>1.3[1.0] MAY 1.0>2[1.0] JUN 0.3>2[1.0] JUL 0>2[1.0] AUG 0>2[1.0] SEP 0>0.5[1.0]
NK CLE-LAX JUN 0.3>1.0[1.0] SEP 0>0.3[1.0]
NK CLE-MCO JUN 0.8>3[1.9] JUL 0>3[1.5] AUG 0>3[1.6] SEP 0>0.7[1.3]
NK CLE-MYR JUN 0.3>1.6[1.0] JUL 0>1.9[1.0] AUG 0>1.8[1.0] SEP 0>0.5[0.8]
NK CLE-TPA JUN 0.3>1.0[0] JUL 0>1.0[0] AUG 0>1.0[0] SEP 0>0.3[0.7]
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:52 pm

Any rumors out there from AA/DL/B6 on new frequencies to replace the UA withdrawals from LGA and DCA?
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:17 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Any rumors out there from AA/DL/B6 on new frequencies to replace the UA withdrawals from LGA and DCA?


AA could upgauge its CLE-DCA nonstop flights to larger aircraft in order to fill in the void left by UA dropping CLE-DCA nonstop service. AA could also possibly add mainline nonstop service to DCA from CLE if needed.

DL could also upgauge CLE-LGA nonstop flights to A220's, A319's, A320's, 717's, or 737's from regional jets.

I had also mentioned B6 adding CLE-JFK nonstop service, G4 adding CLE-EWR nonstop service, F9 adding CLE-EWR nonstop service, or NK adding CLE-EWR nonstop service as possibilities to fill in the void left by UA discontinuing CLE-LGA nonstop service.
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:19 am

^B6 could also do CLE-LGA, but they'd have to take some frequencies from LGA-FLL or somewhere else.

AA & DL could likely take some frequencies for LGA and DCA from CMH as I can't image Columbus having more demand than Cleveland on those routes. CAK only has one flight per day to each of LGA and DCA.
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:27 am

Frontier is announcing new routes tomorrow. I think we can be pretty certain Cleveland will be getting at least 1 or 2 new routes in their summer schedule. We’ll find out!
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:33 am

^Maybe F9 will bring back their CLE-LGA. Did that ever actually operate? I remember they announced it and even sold tickets, but I don't remember if they cut it before it started or cut it a few months after starting. This was around 2013.
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:34 am

They did operate it for a while... Let me see if I can pull up the loads ^
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:44 am

greenair727 wrote:
^B6 could also do CLE-LGA, but they'd have to take some frequencies from LGA-FLL or somewhere else.


If B6 were to add nonstop service to NYC from CLE, B6 would probably add CLE-JFK nonstop service instead of CLE-LGA nonstop service as there are some other domestic destinations within the LGA perimeter that B6 serves nonstop from JFK but not from LGA such as ATL, BUF, BTV, CHS, ORD, RSW, IAH, JAX, MSY, RDU, ROC, SRQ, SAV, SYR, TPA, and ORH.
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:08 am

Frontier CLE-LGA loads:
2014-10: 81%
2014-11: 84%
2014-12: 87%
--route cut--

Market has drastically improved since 2014. Seems like a good time for a re-entry. That being either CLE-LGA or EWR. Either would work. Do note that Frontier cut CVG-LGA heading into summer 2020... Where did those slots go?
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:12 am

avtcle wrote:
Frontier CLE-LGA loads:
2014-10: 81%
2014-11: 84%
2014-12: 87%
--route cut--

Market has drastically improved since 2014. Seems like a good time for a re-entry. That being either CLE-LGA or EWR. Both would work.


I don’t think F9 would waste precious EWR hate space on a flight to CLE. I think they could pull much higher yielding markets such as RSW, MSY, and MBJ. Now you may say these are leisure destinations but the public would be willing to pay way more to go to any of these compared to CLE. LGA isn’t really a big station for F9. Has F9 tried CLE-TTN/PHL?
 
avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:16 am

^CLE-MSY is already served on Spirit, which has loads in the mid 70s so Frontier entering that market would probably result in both pulling out. MBJ? maybe. They tried it from RDU however, and it ended up pulling loads in the 40s and 50s -- yikes. CLE-TTN/PHL were both served at some point between 2014-2015. Air travel market at CLE has improved significantly since then.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:19 am

avtcle wrote:
^CLE-MSY is already served on Spirit, which has loads in the mid 70s so Frontier entering that market would probably result in both pulling out. MBJ? maybe. They tried it from RDU however, and it ended up pulling loads in the 40s and 50s -- yikes. CLE-TTN/PHL were both served at some point between 2014-2015. Air travel market at CLE has improved significantly since then.


I’m sorry for the miss communication, I meant those markets would be better served from EWR on F9. They are pretty much covered from CLE. I could definitely see CLE-TTN working, even when both stations were less developed they pulled decent loads.
 
izbtmnhd
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:21 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
avtcle wrote:
Frontier CLE-LGA loads:
2014-10: 81%
2014-11: 84%
2014-12: 87%
--route cut--

Market has drastically improved since 2014. Seems like a good time for a re-entry. That being either CLE-LGA or EWR. Both would work.


I don’t think F9 would waste precious EWR hate space on a flight to CLE. I think they could pull much higher yielding markets such as RSW, MSY, and MBJ. Now you may say these are leisure destinations but the public would be willing to pay way more to go to any of these compared to CLE. LGA isn’t really a big station for F9. Has F9 tried CLE-TTN/PHL?


Beyond your argument being conjecture, you’re confusing F9 with a legacy. If there ever was a “dartboard” airline who throws yield to the wind, this is the one. Nothing is off the table with these guys, even at EWR/LGA.
 
F9LASDEN
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:09 am

avtcle wrote:
Frontier CLE-LGA loads:
2014-10: 81%
2014-11: 84%
2014-12: 87%
--route cut--

Market has drastically improved since 2014. Seems like a good time for a re-entry. That being either CLE-LGA or EWR. Either would work. Do note that Frontier cut CVG-LGA heading into summer 2020... Where did those slots go?


The slots that F9 was using to operate their summer seasonal CVG-LGA (as well as DEN-LGA) will instead go to making MCO-LGA and MIA-LGA year round (those two have been winter seasonal for the last few years, alternating seasons with DEN and CVG).
Spirit of the West...A Whole Different Animal...Low Fares Done Right
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:07 pm

CLE's customer service ratings continue to improve:

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... 5-headline
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:46 pm

avtcle wrote:
Frontier CLE-LGA loads:
2014-10: 81%
2014-11: 84%
2014-12: 87%
--route cut--

Market has drastically improved since 2014. Seems like a good time for a re-entry. That being either CLE-LGA or EWR. Either would work. Do note that Frontier cut CVG-LGA heading into summer 2020... Where did those slots go?


I think in 2014 when F9 first entered the market they had a plan to operate a small, more-or-less traditional hub in CLE resembling what they were doing in DEN at the time. Soon thereafter they gave up that idea and move to the ULCC model. With that, the point of CLE-LGA went away and they put the slots to vacation uses. I wouldn't look for F9 to reinstate the route.
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:15 pm

masseybrown wrote:
I think in 2014 when F9 first entered the market they had a plan to operate a small, more-or-less traditional hub in CLE resembling what they were doing in DEN at the time. Soon thereafter they gave up that idea and move to the ULCC model. With that, the point of CLE-LGA went away and they put the slots to vacation uses. I wouldn't look for F9 to reinstate the route.


I do agree that F9 re-adding CLE-LGA nonstop service will probably not happen with F9 already having plans to use its LGA slots on other nonstop routes.

However, I had mentioned B6 adding CLE-JFK nonstop service, NK adding CLE-EWR nonstop service, and G4 adding CLE-EWR nonstop service as possibilities.
 
greenair727
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:07 pm

^The "need" here, though, is LGA, not EWR or JFK. And, as it is an important business route, I'd much rather see AA or DL (or B6/WN) on it than the uLCCs. Hoping DL and AA can upgauge AND move some frequency slots from other cities.
 
Trk1
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:36 pm

Plenty of Cle/Lga capacity==what is the problem???
 
avtcle
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:20 pm

CLE-BOS has just appeared as a ghost city pair in Frontier’s booking engine. Rumors swirling that their big summer announcement is coming soon.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1387
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:18 pm

^Ugh. I'd rather see a new city on CLE's network--or more LGA/DCA---than one on which we already have competition on.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:24 pm

Agreed Greenair, Boston of all places has plenty of capacity. I'm not a regular with Frontier to know if this means anything but Islip and Trenton appear too, I don't think either would be available with connections at present.
 
avtcle
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:29 pm

ISP used to offer connections through RDU and TTN used to be served nonstop. Neither were ever taken out of the booking engine from CLE for some reason. BOS is a new add as of this morning.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1387
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:32 pm

^when is F9's next official route announcement? I hope "BOS" is just a placeholder for something else.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:50 pm

If it is an add it is sure reminiscent of F9 adding FLL for this winter, in both cases a route already served by 3 carriers daily, including a ULCC.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3170
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:53 pm

avtcle wrote:
CLE-BOS has just appeared as a ghost city pair in Frontier’s booking engine. Rumors swirling that their big summer announcement is coming soon.

Define ghost city booking. If you just mean it is listed with no dates, there are ton of frontier routes like that that don't have service.
 
avtcle
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:11 pm

Yes, there are. Close to announcements I keep track of what cities are on the list. What caught me is that CLE-BOS just appeared this morning — no bookable dates, which is what a ghost city pair defines. ^
 
F9LASDEN
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:33 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^when is F9's next official route announcement? I hope "BOS" is just a placeholder for something else.


There may be another announcement tomorrow or one of the other upcoming days. When they did their big summer route announcement last year (done in mid-January), they spread the announcement out over three days, focusing on different cities on each of the three days (RDU on the first day, LAS and PHL on the second day, and MCO on the third day). Maybe they are following the same pattern this year. ILG-MCO was announced yesterday, three routes were announced from PHL this morning, so I think it’s possible there may be more in the coming days.

Of course, I have no real or official information and am just kinda guessing based on the pattern they followed last year.
Spirit of the West...A Whole Different Animal...Low Fares Done Right
 
avtcle
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:32 pm

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020/01/spirit-airlines-celebrates-5-years-at-cleveland-hopkins-with-additional-flights-to-florida-las-vegas.html

Spirit Airlines officials say they expect to overtake Frontier as Cleveland's most popular ULCC in 2020. This year, flights will increase by a projected 53%, while seats will increase by a projected 62%!

A continuing trend of Spirit moving away from the LCC/limited frequency method. Seems to be working well in CLE!
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5443
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:29 pm

avtcle wrote:
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020/01/spirit-airlines-celebrates-5-years-at-cleveland-hopkins-with-additional-flights-to-florida-las-vegas.html

Spirit Airlines officials say they expect to overtake Frontier as Cleveland's most popular ULCC in 2020. This year, flights will increase by a projected 53%, while seats will increase by a projected 62%!

A continuing trend of Spirit moving away from the LCC/limited frequency method. Seems to be working well in CLE!


Spirit projects ~15 flights a day for the summer schedule - impressive considering how bad their rep was a few years ago.
 
avtcle
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:36 pm

Frontier ought to feel threatened. Lets just hope they respond! (new routes for summer 2020 please!) ^

If we don't here from Frontier within the next week it'd probably be safe to assume CLE will be getting no love from them for their summer schedule.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5443
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:53 pm

The airport updated their website data for 2019. We know about the pax numbers passing 10 million; the other great news is cargo. The Dec total was up just 5.0%, but that hides the fact emplaned cargo was up 10.56%, while deplaned cargo was up only 0.16% - which points to the continued growing strength of the Cleveland economy. Area 'exports' are growing much faster than 'imports'.
Last edited by masseybrown on Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VetteDude
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:13 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:55 pm

avtcle wrote:
Frontier ought to feel threatened. Lets just hope they respond! (new routes for summer 2020 please!) ^

If we don't here from Frontier within the next week it'd probably be safe to assume CLE will be getting no love from them for their summer schedule.


Frontier should feel threatened. They've never really committed to a solid strategy. Their original CLE strategy was to make a focus city with connections then it kinda morphed into a dartboard.

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