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crjflyboy
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:15 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^YUL? I assume you are joking. LHR/AMS/FRA is the goal here.


Sometimes it's better to hit a single, then to swing for the fence and strike out trying to hit a grand slam home run.

LHR is slot controlled - good luck

AMS is slot controlled - good luck
 
User avatar
CLEguy
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:48 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^YUL? I assume you are joking. LHR/AMS/FRA is the goal here.


It's not such a far-fetched idea. That's how PIT has service to YUL. Of course, a true transatlantic flight on a major carrier should be the primary goal of any funds CLE gets from this pot of state money, probably further subsidized by local corporate cotributions.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1313
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:55 pm

And FRA is a hub that overflies London and Paris, served by a carrier that doesn’t have a great aircraft for CLE and that already serves DTW— more good luck!
 
greenair727
Posts: 1387
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:02 am

If you are seriously pushing YUL and others think it is reasonable, why not just try instead for Indianapolis or Erie, PA and throw the towel in? There's no way Columbus is aiming so low and once they get a TATL route, it will be 100x harder for CLE to get one as that airline will expect people from CLE to drive down to CMH. And once Columbus gets the route, their economy will grow notably making it EVEN harder for CLE to compete as a city and to gain a route. The concern is not that $4M is too low, is that there are not clear parameters on how that money will be given to help CLE vs. Columbus, as state organizations/funds always favor columbus over Cleveland (and yes, I know, JobsOhio is "private" though funded with state liquor tax).
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:07 am

CLEguy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
^YUL? I assume you are joking. LHR/AMS/FRA is the goal here.


It's not such a far-fetched idea. That's how PIT has service to YUL. Of course, a true transatlantic flight on a major carrier should be the primary goal of any funds CLE gets from this pot of state money, probably further subsidized by local corporate cotributions.


PIT invested just 100,000 in actual funds to secure the service and it runs in the mid 80's for a load factor ...

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/trans ... 1711290114

I'd say a great bang for the buck
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:43 am

A big selling point to AC to serve PIT was ALCOA ... The Cleveland area has two huge ALCOA, operations ... I'm not even counting any possible tourists destinations within a 90 minute drive of CLE either for Quebec citizens to visit and see.

Service to YUL is definitely achievable for a very low cost
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 1778
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:02 am

IIRC PIT only offered $50,000 in marketing support and waived landing fees for YUL service. As stated Alcoa was a large factor as was Bombardier.


Regarding the funds put up by Ohio, this CLE vs. CMH and parameters how funds should be divided is a silly notion. It is not the state’s place to play favorites. Let the airline that bites decide which one they want to serve. If CMH comes out on top so be it.
FLYi
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 364
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:16 am

flyPIT wrote:
IIRC PIT only offered $50,000 in marketing support and waived landing fees for YUL service. As stated Alcoa was a large factor as was Bombardier.


Regarding the funds put up by Ohio, this CLE vs. CMH and parameters how funds should be divided is a silly notion. It is not the state’s place to play favorites. Let the airline that bites decide which one they want to serve. If CMH comes out on top so be it.


The pool of funds is for additional viable air service of any kind ...not just overseas or trans border service.

OHIO is pragmatic and if they could get 15 or 20 new viable city pairs state wide .... they would take it ... if it's successful .. more funds will flow
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1550
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:10 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
^YUL? I assume you are joking. LHR/AMS/FRA is the goal here.


Sometimes it's better to hit a single, then to swing for the fence and strike out trying to hit a grand slam home run.

LHR is slot controlled - good luck

AMS is slot controlled - good luck


Why the sarcasm? CLE used to have LHR and PIT had AMS and now LHR. It's not far fetched. I'm encouraged the Governor is backing this funding and we could see some changes. As noted above, it is also for domestic service so maybe AS finally to SEA and AC to YUL like PIT did. That would be a good start for 2020 and 2021 for TATL as it's late. We also should not forget FI might come back (in 2020?) if the MAX ever flies.
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:29 pm

What airlines should CLE approach for the flight to Europe? One could argue that the CLE market has shown that it will support a low cost carrier in droves. You might get them for less of a subsidy than a high cost Legacy.
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    crjflyboy
    Posts: 364
    Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:42 pm

    fun2fly wrote:
    crjflyboy wrote:
    greenair727 wrote:
    ^YUL? I assume you are joking. LHR/AMS/FRA is the goal here.


    Sometimes it's better to hit a single, then to swing for the fence and strike out trying to hit a grand slam home run.

    LHR is slot controlled - good luck

    AMS is slot controlled - good luck


    Why the sarcasm? CLE used to have LHR and PIT had AMS and now LHR. It's not far fetched. I'm encouraged the Governor is backing this funding and we could see some changes. As noted above, it is also for domestic service so maybe AS finally to SEA and AC to YUL like PIT did. That would be a good start for 2020 and 2021 for TATL as it's late. We also should not forget FI might come back (in 2020?) if the MAX ever flies.


    The response was directed at greenair727 who made the remark why don't we get service to Erie ... who said the only goal is his vision
     
    SgtBarone
    Posts: 246
    Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:20 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:44 pm

    Beginning June 4, AA increasing to 4x daily to DCA and upgauging three of four flights (article also discusses LGA upgauges):

    https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... -cuts.html
    AGP ATL BCN BNA BOS CLE CLT DCA DEN FLG FLL FRA IAD IAH JAX LAS LAX LGB MAD MCI MCO MDW MKE MUC PHX RDU RSW SEA SJU SLC SNA TPA
     
    masseybrown
    Posts: 5443
    Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:16 pm

    SgtBarone wrote:
    Beginning June 4, AA increasing to 4x daily to DCA and upgauging three of four flights (article also discusses LGA upgauges):

    https://www.cleveland.com/business/2020 ... -cuts.html


    The 3 out of 4 upgaging is nice - almost eliminating Gate 35X. It did figure that AA would add a 4th flight; there was no way they could accommodate all UA's traffic on 3 50-seaters even if both airlines were running at 65% load factors. It still may be a squeeze.

    Once the Max's are flying again, we'll see if WN bumps their BWI schedule back up to 4.
     
    greenair727
    Posts: 1387
    Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:58 pm

    Whats the current equipment and what is make up of the four June flights? So is the entirety of UA's withdrawal from LGA and DCA met by new capacity from AA (and nothing by DL or anyone else)?
     
    greenair727
    Posts: 1387
    Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:05 pm

    Ultimate Air is adding a 3rd daily frequency on BKL-LUK. The Mid-day flight is new, starting 16March

    Morning
    Departs Lunken: 6:45 a.m.
    Arrives Cleveland: 7:27 a.m.
    Departs Cleveland: 7:55 a.m.
    Arrives Lunken: 8:27 a.m.

    Midday
    Departs Lunken: 11:45 a.m.
    Arrives Cleveland: 12:40 p.m.
    Departs Cleveland: 1:10 p.m.
    Arrives Lunken: 2:05 p.m.

    Evening
    Departs Lunken: 5:30 p.m.
    Arrives Cleveland: 6:12 p.m.
    Departs Cleveland: 6:35 p.m.
    Arrives Lunken: 7:17 p.m.

    https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... pands.html
     
    Cointrin330
    Posts: 1455
    Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:15 pm

    Great to see AA add more frequency on CLE-DCA and CLE-LGA and upgrade the jets from E140s to CRJ700s and E-175s.
     
    crjflyboy
    Posts: 364
    Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:16 am

    flyPIT wrote:
    IIRC PIT only offered $50,000 in marketing support and waived landing fees for YUL service. As stated Alcoa was a large factor as was Bombardier.


    Regarding the funds put up by Ohio, this CLE vs. CMH and parameters how funds should be divided is a silly notion. It is not the state’s place to play favorites. Let the airline that bites decide which one they want to serve. If CMH comes out on top so be it.


    Montreal metro population is 4.2 million people

    https://populationstat.com/canada/montreal

    What other community within a 90 minute flight of CLE with this size does CLE not serve ?
     
    chidino
    Posts: 211
    Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:36 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:33 am

    plinth857 wrote:
    jplatts wrote:
    There are still a few more nonstop routes that could be added by WN out of CLE such as CLE-AUS, CLE-HOU, CLE-MCI, CLE-LAX, and CLE-SAN, and I have also previously mentioned that WN was considering adding CLE-HOU nonstop service back in October 2017. WN could also increase CLE-DAL, CLE-FLL, CLE-LAS, and CLE-MCO to daily nonstop service.

    I have also mentioned NK possibly adding CLE-IAH nonstop service with IAH being one of the biggest NK stations that NK doesn't currently serve nonstop from CLE.


    I wonder if AA will bring DFW back to five flights for the summer. If not, I really don't know why WN doesn't increase CLE-DAL to daily. Right now, there are only three nonstops between Cleveland and Dallas, and one of them is on a regional jet. I know Spirit operates their seasonal flights there starting in late April, but capacity seems unusually low. This is the city pair I fly most often, and I would love to have Southwest as an option.


    Just visiting this thread for the first time, so I apologize if this has been answered before. Any increase problem for WN rests with DAL being full; the sweetheart deal that effectively locked down DAL for WN also limited them to 18 gates. They have demands coming in from all over for more flights, but they are locked in at 195 daily flights from 18 gates (since January, 2019, when the agreement took effect involving DL complaint.) I noticed CLE's load factor to DAL is high (90+), so I'd assume you're on the short list, but the lack of slots is the problem.
     
    ncflyer
    Posts: 1313
    Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:29 pm

    I find it interesting that since the first of the year UA has only operated 3 daily 50 seaters to IAD.At one time recently UA had some fanfare about IAD replacing EWR for east coast connections— with only 3 50 seaters????

    Looks like scheduled to resume with 4 flights including one mainline on 2/17. Indy Pittsburgh and Columbus have not such drastic reductions in the dead of winter. Cleveland demand in the dead of winter drops so much relative to other markets apparently. There are other somewhat similar stories— DFW on AA is reduced in clevelsnd more than other markets in the winter. I find it a little odd can’t really explain why cleveland is different.
     
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    CLEguy
    Posts: 280
    Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:59 pm

    Just for fun, I picked a random day in summer 7/6/20 and compared the service to NYC and WAS (flights and seats):

    CLE-NYC Service
    7/6/20


    DL
    LGA 5x CRJ900 380
    JFK 4x CRJ900 304
    Total 684
    AA
    LGA 4x E175 304
    JFK 2x E140 88
    Total 392

    UA
    EWR 1x 737, 2x 738, 1x 739, 1x E145, 1x E170, 1x E175 797
    Total 797

    CLE-WAS Service
    7/6/20


    UA
    IAD 3x 737, 1x 738 532
    Total 532
    AA
    DCA 2x E175, 1 CRJ700, 1 CRJ200 278
    Total 278
     
    masseybrown
    Posts: 5443
    Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:33 pm

    greenair727 wrote:
    Ultimate Air is adding a 3rd daily frequency on BKL-LUK. The Mid-day flight is new, starting 16March

    https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... pands.html


    Great news. I was a little worried about them for a while. Cheap fuel was no doubt a help last year and, short of some new war, there doesn't seem to be a price rise in sight.
     
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    CLEguy
    Posts: 280
    Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:56 pm

    CLEguy wrote:
    Just for fun, I picked a random day in summer 7/6/20 and compared the service to NYC and WAS (flights and seats):

    CLE-NYC Service
    7/6/20


    DL
    LGA 5x CRJ900 380
    JFK 4x CRJ900 304
    Total 684
    AA
    LGA 4x E175 304
    JFK 2x E140 88
    Total 392

    UA
    EWR 1x 737, 2x 738, 1x 739, 1x E145, 1x E170, 1x E175 797
    Total 797

    CLE-WAS Service
    7/6/20


    UA
    IAD 3x 737, 1x 738 532
    Total 532
    AA
    DCA 2x E175, 1 CRJ700, 1 CRJ200 278
    Total 278


    Forgot to include BWI

    WN
    BWI 3x 737 429
    Total 429
     
    masseybrown
    Posts: 5443
    Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:05 pm

    According to today's OAG thread AA's 3-a-day to Dallas schedule rolls on into May. Ok, it has to be at least partly MAX-driven; but I wonder if AA isn't trying to force-feed their ORD hub with CLE-west traffic by limiting alternatives. The ORD hub is probably their most competitive situation.

    The coming DCA monopoly should help win over some FF business fliers; that has to be a very important monopoly for AA's Cleveland plans.
     
    avtcle
    Posts: 287
    Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:14 am

    To discredit all those rumors about United pulling out of all non-hub flying from Cleveland: United is increasing CLE-MCO/RSW to 2x daily in March. CLE-FLL/RSW season has been extended through May 30th, and both routes are already bookable in United’s system for next winter.
     
    krod031
    Posts: 139
    Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:49 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:05 am

    avtcle wrote:
    It looks to be effective May 4, 2020 — great news!
    Finally business travelers can take advantage of first class on this route.


    Looks like they pushed it back to July 1st now. Flights back to the CRJ
     
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    CLEguy
    Posts: 280
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:27 am

    As part of Cuyahoga County’s incentive package for Sherwin-Williams is this item:

    The county agrees to work in “good faith” with the Sherwin-Williams to advance unspecified improvement plans at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, and will report back to Sherwin-Williams about those plans.

    Wonder what this might entail.

    https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/02/ ... owers.html
     
    crjflyboy
    Posts: 364
    Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:17 am

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    What airlines should CLE approach for the flight to Europe? One could argue that the CLE market has shown that it will support a low cost carrier in droves. You might get them for less of a subsidy than a high cost Legacy.


    ICELAND

    https://www.icelandair.com/flights/
     
    ncflyer
    Posts: 1313
    Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:23 am

    First time I can ever recall a corporation or civic leader putting an iota of pressure on improving the airport, however gentle that pressure may be. It’s a start. (I’m not including the Plain Dealer, which has been raising the issue on many occasions on its editorial pages).


    CLEguy wrote:
    As part of Cuyahoga County’s incentive package for Sherwin-Williams is this item:

    The county agrees to work in “good faith” with the Sherwin-Williams to advance unspecified improvement plans at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, and will report back to Sherwin-Williams about those plans.

    Wonder what this might entail.

    https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/02/ ... owers.html
     
    User avatar
    mbm3
    Posts: 762
    Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:54 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:15 pm

    CLEguy wrote:
    As part of Cuyahoga County’s incentive package for Sherwin-Williams is this item:

    The county agrees to work in “good faith” with the Sherwin-Williams to advance unspecified improvement plans at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, and will report back to Sherwin-Williams about those plans.

    Wonder what this might entail.

    https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/02/ ... owers.html



    It's interesting - and a good thing - that the County is getting involved with improvements at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport as they seem to have a better vision than the City of Cleveland. I would assume this involves the long-overdue move of customs/immigrations out of grandma's basement to a location with direct landside access. Or does S-W have a small fleet of corporate jets that might need a hangar?
    Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
     
    ncflyer
    Posts: 1313
    Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:45 pm

    The county has zero jurisdiction over the airport making it even more interesting. And the county has a long history of dysfunction including the current administration. I’m just glad to see a corporation taking a bit of a public stand.
     
    masseybrown
    Posts: 5443
    Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:01 pm

    The county could help underwrite new air services. I don’t believe there is any prohibition to contributing to a profit guarantee pool or similar arrangement that might induce an airline to operate a new route.

    If S-W. needs a hangar, the Expressjet hangar will soon be available.
     
    fun2fly
    Posts: 1550
    Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:43 pm

    masseybrown wrote:
    If S-W. needs a hangar, the Expressjet hangar will soon be available.


    Shouldn't this be torn down for the new terminal long term?

    Where is SW's big European destination? From the investor relations map, a ton of locations in the UK, Italy, etc. It always comes back to LHR being a great connection point, although DUB could work.
     
    corn4ahead
    Posts: 56
    Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:56 pm

    What's surprising to me is that SW doesn't have their own hanger on the field. They fly out of Atlantic. Yet Parker-Hannifan has their own hanger and so does Key Bank.
     
    plinth857
    Posts: 140
    Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:09 pm

    mbm3 wrote:
    CLEguy wrote:
    As part of Cuyahoga County’s incentive package for Sherwin-Williams is this item:

    The county agrees to work in “good faith” with the Sherwin-Williams to advance unspecified improvement plans at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, and will report back to Sherwin-Williams about those plans.

    Wonder what this might entail.

    https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/02/ ... owers.html



    It's interesting - and a good thing - that the County is getting involved with improvements at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport as they seem to have a better vision than the City of Cleveland. I would assume this involves the long-overdue move of customs/immigrations out of grandma's basement to a location with direct landside access. Or does S-W have a small fleet of corporate jets that might need a hangar?


    Last I heard, Sherwin has 3 private jets they fly out of Atlantic. However, they do A LOT of commerical flying, especially their engineers. I imagine they are trying to improve the travel situation for those people due to the high volume of travel they do throughout the year.
     
    avtcle
    Posts: 287
    Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:00 am

    Cleveland Load Factors from October 2019 are here:

    Frontier Airlines
    CLE-MCO: 83%
    CLE-RSW: 95%
    CLE-MIA: 62%
    CLE-FLL: 59% (Yikes. Can't see FLL/MIA coming back)
    CLE-MSP: 63% (Only 3 departures for MSP/RDU)
    CLE-RDU: 67%
    CLE-TPA: 84%
    CLE-CHS: 73% (Surprised at this -- especially month after hurricane)
    CLE-LAS: 92%
    CLE-PHX: 92%
    CLE-DEN: 82%
    CLE-SRQ: 90%
    CLE-CUN: 87%
    CLE-PUJ: 61% (Wow! What a drop from June. Staying year round this year, though!)

    United Airlines
    CLE-MCO: 88%
    CLE-DEN: 90%
    CLE-LAX: 88%
    CLE-SFO: 88%
    CLE-ORD: 82%
    CLE-LGA: 68%
    CLE-IAH: 83%
    CLE-EWR: 74%
    CLE-DCA: 71%
    CLE-CUN: 85%

    Spirit Airlines
    CLE-MCO: 91%
    CLE-RSW: 97%
    CLE-DFW: 91%
    CLE-TPA: 84%
    CLE-BOS: 89%
    CLE-LAS: 90%
    CLE-PHX: 92%
    CLE-LAX: 90%
    CLE-MYR: 76%
    CLE-MSY: 88%
    CLE-ATL: 91%

    Southwest Airlines
    CLE-MCO: 88%
    CLE-TPA: 88%
    CLE-LAS: 91%
    CLE-DEN: 86%
    CLE-MDW: 80%
    CLE-MKE: 68%
    CLE-DAL: 86%
    CLE-BWI: 82%
    CLE-BNA: 82%
    CLE-STL: 80%
    CLE-PHX: 92%
    CLE-ATL: 90%

    Delta Airlines
    CLE-RDU: 65%
    CLE-BOS: 75%
    CLE-MSP: 87%
    CLE-LGA: 72%
    CLE-JFK: 75%
    CLE-SLC: 89%
    CLE-ATL: 84%
    CLE-DTW: 86%

    American Airlines
    CLE-DFW: 75%
    CLE-MIA: 85%
    CLE-ORD: 77%
    CLE-LGA: 80%
    CLE-JFK: 74%
    CLE-DCA: 68%
    CLE-CLT: 86%
    CLE-PHL: 81%

    JetBlue Airways
    CLE-BOS: 86%
    CLE-FLL: 88%

    Allegiant Air
    CLE-SRQ: 88%
    CLE-PGD: 93%
    CLE-PIE: 89%
    CLE-SAV: 77%

    Let me know if I've missed any!
     
    ncflyer
    Posts: 1313
    Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:38 am

    Thank you! I’m curious about FLL on NK since F9 has such low loads yet NK adding seats to the market. Also curious about IAD since UA really cuts seats in January. Is the fall a leading indicator of light demand?

    I can see why there’s not a complete backfill of seats to LGA and DCA with UAs pullback. Not like the existing carriers are killing it.
     
    avtcle
    Posts: 287
    Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:50 am

    I’m not sure what happened with my NK numbers but I’m pretty sure I intended Spirt CLE-PHX to be CLE-FLL.

    Spirit CLE-FLL: 82%

    United CLE-IAD: 87%
     
    HPAEAA
    Posts: 1138
    Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:24 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:49 am

    [twoid][/twoid]
    avtcle wrote:
    I’m not sure what happened with my NK numbers but I’m pretty sure I intended Spirt CLE-PHX to be CLE-FLL.

    Spirit CLE-FLL: 82%

    United CLE-IAD: 87%

    Do you have the CLE-BDL numbers for DL?
    1.4mm and counting...
     
    greenair727
    Posts: 1387
    Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:08 pm

    David Neeleman, founder of JetBlue, finally filed papers for his new airline, formerly called Moxy, now called Breeze. According to some reports about Moxy, it looks like the airline targeted secondary airports in cities, like BKL. It would be great to see this new carrier at Burke. From a Providence news source:

    "In June 2019, GoLocal reported of then-Moxy: De facto, Providence would be the hub, “Moxy seems keen on secondary airports in the country’s biggest metro areas like Boston, New York, Washington, Chicago, San Francisco and Los Angeles. Providence, outside Boston, features prominently as an example in Moxy’s presentation.”

    According to the reports, “On a map of prospective routes, it shows Providence flights to Allegiant-like airports in Florida (i.e., Orlando Sanford and St. Petersburg) and California (i.e., Oakland, San Jose, Contra Costa, Orange County, Burbank, Ontario and McClellan-Palomar, north of San Diego). Other dots from Providence include Phoenix Mesa, Rocky Mountain Airport near Denver, Concord near Charlotte, Fort Worth’s Meacham Airport and Burke Lakefront Airport in Cleveland..."

    [emphasis added]

    https://www.golocalprov.com/business/Ne ... oming-to-P

    For Breeze, would Providence still be a hub? Burke would make a great hub.
     
    MohawkWeekend
    Posts: 55
    Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

    Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:41 am

    Love the idea of Burke flights. I would note from personal observation (worked downtown for 20 years) the weather on the lakefront can be god-awful for an extended period of time in the Spring. I wonder how often Ultimate cancels due to cross winds and/or low visibility.
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      greenair727
      Posts: 1387
      Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:58 am

      ^BKL has ILS. For commercial operations, I can't imagine it is worse than many other airports next to water, which is many airports in the world.
       
      corn4ahead
      Posts: 56
      Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:03 am

      greenair727 wrote:
      ^BKL has ILS. For commercial operations, I can't imagine it is worse than many other airports next to water, which is many airports in the world.


      The only time it really matters is when BKL is on 6s. They have to do the ILS 24R circle 6L. Minimums are higher for that approach.
       
      MohawkWeekend
      Posts: 55
      Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

      Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:29 am

      Does Burke only have a Cat 1 ILS on 24R and less (back course or RNAV) on 6L? Hopkins has Cat III on all runways, yes?
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        avtcle
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        Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

        Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:10 am

        I know when BKL weather is bad, Ultimate just flies into CLE.
         
        corn4ahead
        Posts: 56
        Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

        Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

        Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:14 am

        MohawkWeekend wrote:
        Does Burke only have a Cat 1 ILS on 24R and less (back course or RNAV) on 6L? Hopkins has Cat III on all runways, yes?


        Yes Cat I only. No backcourse ILS. There is an RNAV which actually has similar minimums to the ILS.

        There are no approaches to 6 (other than visuals and the aforementioned circling) because of the proximity to CLE. Even when both airports are on 6s, larger aircraft typically needs approval into CLE Tower's airspace to complete the circling approach. It mostly applies to 737s, 757s, and the occasional Gulfstream or Challenger.
         
        MohawkWeekend
        Posts: 55
        Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:06 pm

        Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

        Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:25 am

        I recall both Wright and Midway Airlines operated in BKL before they install the one ILS system. That must have caused some grey hairs for the crews.
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          greenair727
          Posts: 1387
          Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

          Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

          Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:31 pm

          avtcle wrote:
          I know when BKL weather is bad, Ultimate just flies into CLE.


          How often does this happen? And where do pax deplane? You can't mix unscreened pax into the main, secure side of the terminal where all the gates are.
           
          corn4ahead
          Posts: 56
          Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

          Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

          Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:02 pm

          greenair727 wrote:
          avtcle wrote:
          I know when BKL weather is bad, Ultimate just flies into CLE.


          How often does this happen? And where do pax deplane? You can't mix unscreened pax into the main, secure side of the terminal where all the gates are.


          Not often. When it does, Ultimate goes to Atlantic.
           
          User avatar
          CLEguy
          Posts: 280
          Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

          Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

          Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:42 pm

          MohawkWeekend wrote:
          Hopkins has Cat III on all runways, yes?


          Cat III on 6L/24R, Cat II on 6R/24Land ILS on 10/28.

          https://www.airnav.com/airport/KCLE
           
          CleSyrRoc
          Posts: 50
          Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 2:47 pm

          Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2020

          Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:23 pm

          How much does it cost to do one cat III system for one runway at CLE for instance?
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