July 24, 2020 - Lufthansa withdraws D-ABVS:

LH has withdrawn another B744 today, D-ABVS delivered in December 1997 (23.3 Years) was flown to Twente Airport (ENS) in the Netherlands today, to join five sister aircraft.

Another KL 744 at AMS scheduled to be 'exported' to MHV per August 24th
Source: https://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php ... 53#p971053

Qantas VH-OEJ on its way into MHV right now....

Some pictures and video from the final departure & arrival for Qantas 747-400ER VH-OEJ today at LAX/MHV.

LAX:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CDCVBgbjDXu/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CDCYsVXh7_0/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CDCTViVD5Pp/

MHV:
Video: https://www.instagram.com/p/CDCRzVApcQj/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CDCbd2ahZBW/
My photo: https://www.instagram.com/p/CDCRxD2BFsu/

is Kingdom Holding 744 (HZ-WBT7) retired ?

N756CA left Marina yesterday after a storage period of 7 years and 3 months, quite impressive. Will now undergo heavy maintenance in San Antonio and thereafter enter service with National Airlines. N702CA & N729CA will most likely follow soon.

Source: https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=3

TF-AMC threw me a bit.

Seems that there are two B747 with the same reg.

More than 6 years since her retirement from Qantas, and being at VCV all that time, it appears that this bird is getting a new lease of life (info courtesy of skyliner-aviation.de):

Boeing 747-438 25151 865 N953JM Jet Midwest Group ferried 30 July 2020, VCV-MCI, ex VH-OJL

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N953JM

Jet Midwest Group also own the following ex QF B744s (info courtesy of planespotters.net):

N954JM ex VH-OJB
N955JM ex VH-OJE
N956JM ex VH-OJF
N958JM ex VH-OJN
N952JM ex VH-OJP
N951JM ex VH-OJQ

audidudi wrote:

More than 6 years since her retirement from Qantas, and being at VCV all that time, it appears that this bird is getting a new lease of life (info courtesy of skyliner-aviation.de):

Boeing 747-438 25151 865 N953JM Jet Midwest Group ferried 30 July 2020, VCV-MCI, ex VH-OJL

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N953JM

Jet Midwest Group also own the following ex QF B744s (info courtesy of planespotters.net):

N954JM ex VH-OJB
N955JM ex VH-OJE
N956JM ex VH-OJF
N958JM ex VH-OJN
N952JM ex VH-OJP
N951JM ex VH-OJQ

Apparently N953JM is being ferried for scrap at MCI. At least that's what I've heard from several sources, including one really reliable one. I've also been told that one more is allegedly also ferrying to MCI from VCV, likely N952JM ex VH-OJP. I'll be on the look out for any activity around that one....

Does anyone else find it interesting that the 747 retirement announcements were all done with some fanfare and had a sad tone to them, but Air France retiring the A380 and other airlines reducing their fleets seemed less personal? British Airways and QANTAS in their announcements gave this feeling of "it's sad to say goodbye to the 747 and we didn't want to end it this way" and mentioned that the retirements were "difficult" or "heartbreaking" decisions, whereas Air France's announcement seemed very impersonal and even had a tinge of "good riddance" to them. It's like retiring the 747 has sentimental value to the airlines but retiring the A380 doesn't feel the same so far to them. Why?

The 747 had a much more prolific history than the A380 did.

However, didn't AF operate a few farewell flights for the A380? It wasn't all salt.

PhilMcCrackin wrote:

The 747 had a much more prolific history than the A380 did.

However, didn't AF operate a few farewell flights for the A380? It wasn't all salt.

They operated a single farewell flight only to airline staff. Even the airline didn't seem too emotional about seeing them go apart from posting a highlights video titled "Farewell Big Bird" on their social media. By contrast QANTAS had a farewell event for their 747s and even had the last one draw a kangaroo in the sky. By the looks of things airlines themselves seem to care more about the 747 than the A380.

filipinoavgeek wrote:

PhilMcCrackin wrote:

The 747 had a much more prolific history than the A380 did.

However, didn't AF operate a few farewell flights for the A380? It wasn't all salt.

They operated a single farewell flight only to airline staff. Even the airline didn't seem too emotional about seeing them go apart from posting a highlights video titled "Farewell Big Bird" on their social media. By contrast QANTAS had a farewell event for their 747s and even had the last one draw a kangaroo in the sky. By the looks of things airlines themselves seem to care more about the 747 than the A380.

As others have stated, the 747 has over 50 years of history: Qantas operated theirs for 49 years. BA for a similar length. For so many (including me), the 747 got them into aviation, into jobs, allowed affordable travel, etc. It was revolutionary then, and still draws people today. And that’s why airlines and people (including me again) have so much of an emotional attachment to them. Meanwhile, the A380 was something that was badly timed at best, and an outdated concept according to naysayers. Only a few airlines (such as Emirates, BA) have found a way for them to work. They have only served short periods, and there isn’t too much of an attachment to an aircraft 10 years old, compared to one where you have seen several iterations come and go in your lifetime. It’s an emotional post, but it’s also an emotional topic.

VCVSpotter wrote:

filipinoavgeek wrote:

PhilMcCrackin wrote:

The 747 had a much more prolific history than the A380 did.

However, didn't AF operate a few farewell flights for the A380? It wasn't all salt.

They operated a single farewell flight only to airline staff. Even the airline didn't seem too emotional about seeing them go apart from posting a highlights video titled "Farewell Big Bird" on their social media. By contrast QANTAS had a farewell event for their 747s and even had the last one draw a kangaroo in the sky. By the looks of things airlines themselves seem to care more about the 747 than the A380.

As others have stated, the 747 has over 50 years of history: Qantas operated theirs for 49 years. BA for a similar length. For so many (including me), the 747 got them into aviation, into jobs, allowed affordable travel, etc. It was revolutionary then, and still draws people today. And that’s why airlines and people (including me again) have so much of an emotional attachment to them. Meanwhile, the A380 was something that was badly timed at best, and an outdated concept according to naysayers. Only a few airlines (such as Emirates, BA) have found a way for them to work. They have only served short periods, and there isn’t too much of an attachment to an aircraft 10 years old, compared to one where you have seen several iterations come and go in your lifetime. It’s an emotional post, but it’s also an emotional topic.

The A380 story is such a sad one, poor thing just a little late to the party, was the first big hat in the ring for Airbus and was a statement for the industry at the time. Loved seeing the aircraft wherever it was, SYD, LHR, HKG, LAX, SIN. Always proud that QF purchased the aircraft as we were only one of a few airlines to require the largest in the skies and was always a big thing when you saw 3 parked in maintenance and 2 parked at the gate in LAX it was like Australia had come to the US (along with maybe 2 747's and the VA 77W and similar for LHR where there was always a large presence. Although I very much agree the 77W would have suited the job far better...

I wonder how the farewells for the AF A380 would have turned out had it not been for COVID...

filipinoavgeek wrote:

I wonder how the farewells for the AF A380 would have turned out had it not been for COVID...

I been thinking the same about British Airways and the 747-400 for weeks now. For an airline struggling to make money, and having to keep pilot currency in order to fly the 747s off to wherever they’ll end up being scrapped, I would have thought filling a couple of 747s with paying passengers on domestic only flights would have been a no brainier for them. I can only think COVID-19 risk as the main problem.

OK, so where do we stand today?

Asia:
CA - all 3 active (1 is VIP)
OZ - the 1 and only active
CI - all 4 stored
KE - both stored
TG - all 8 stored
AI - all 4 stored
Mahan Air - the 1 and only stored
Iraqi Airways - both stored

Europe:
Rossiya - 8 out of 9 active
LH - all 7 stored
Wamos - all 5 stored

Africa:
Max Air - 2 out of 4 active

What else?

I wouldn't be surprised to see all of Lufthansa's 747-400s leave, although for the moment I can only logically see 3 747-400s returning (the ones that are stored at HAM: D-ABVM/D-ABVW/D-ABVZ).

VCVSpotter wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised to see all of Lufthansa's 747-400s leave

Sure, but since they haven't officially announced that they retire the 747-400, I have included them, contrary to, for example, KL who still fly 3 744 combis that they easily could (and I honestly think should) bring back to passenger service, but since they've announced they retire them, I didn't include them.

workhorse wrote:

VCVSpotter wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised to see all of Lufthansa's 747-400s leave

Sure, but since they haven't officially announced that they retire the 747-400, I have included them, contrary to, for example, KL who still fly 3 744 combis that they easily could (and I honestly think should) bring back to passenger service, but since they've announced they retire them, I didn't include them.

I wasn't saying it to correct you, merely just voicing my thoughts. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

VCVSpotter wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised to see all of Lufthansa's 747-400s leave, although for the moment I can only logically see 3 747-400s returning (the ones that are stored at HAM: D-ABVM/D-ABVW/D-ABVZ).

I don't think the storage location is relevant. D-ABTK and D-ABTL are younger than the ones you list. If the past is any guide, After traffic bounced back post-9/11 slump, LH reactivated two 747-200 mostly for their Canadian routes.

VCVSpotter wrote:

workhorse wrote:

VCVSpotter wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised to see all of Lufthansa's 747-400s leave

Sure, but since they haven't officially announced that they retire the 747-400, I have included them, contrary to, for example, KL who still fly 3 744 combis that they easily could (and I honestly think should) bring back to passenger service, but since they've announced they retire them, I didn't include them.

I wasn't saying it to correct you, merely just voicing my thoughts. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

No problem! And I think you are (unfortunately) right about none of the LH 744s making it back. That leaves us here in Western Europe with (eventually) only Wamos as an relatively easy option to fly the 744 one last time.

workhorse wrote:

VCVSpotter wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised to see all of Lufthansa's 747-400s leave

Sure, but since they haven't officially announced that they retire the 747-400, I have included them, contrary to, for example, KL who still fly 3 744 combis that they easily could (and I honestly think should) bring back to passenger service, but since they've announced they retire them, I didn't include them.

Airline will announce model retirements when confident (not returning), and in a position to bundle with other extraordinary costs, as if material, should trigger an impaired asset revaluation.

smartplane wrote:

Airline will announce model retirements when confident (not returning), and in a position to bundle with other extraordinary costs, as if material, should trigger an impaired asset revaluation.

So, if I understand you well, you mean that, because of financial/reporting obligations, once an airline announced they retire their 747-400s, there is no chance to see them changing their mind later, even if they still have some 744s perfectly fit for passenger flying in their possession?

filipinoavgeek wrote:

Does anyone else find it interesting that the 747 retirement announcements were all done with some fanfare and had a sad tone to them, but Air France retiring the A380 and other airlines reducing their fleets seemed less personal? British Airways and QANTAS in their announcements gave this feeling of "it's sad to say goodbye to the 747 and we didn't want to end it this way" and mentioned that the retirements were "difficult" or "heartbreaking" decisions, whereas Air France's announcement seemed very impersonal and even had a tinge of "good riddance" to them. It's like retiring the 747 has sentimental value to the airlines but retiring the A380 doesn't feel the same so far to them. Why?

Probably because the 747 is DEAD, buried and cut to small pieces but the A380 isn't going anywhere. Much easier to celebrate that than the removal of something which you could not get to work unlike others and highlight your own failures.

Strato2 wrote:

filipinoavgeek wrote:

Does anyone else find it interesting that the 747 retirement announcements were all done with some fanfare and had a sad tone to them, but Air France retiring the A380 and other airlines reducing their fleets seemed less personal? British Airways and QANTAS in their announcements gave this feeling of "it's sad to say goodbye to the 747 and we didn't want to end it this way" and mentioned that the retirements were "difficult" or "heartbreaking" decisions, whereas Air France's announcement seemed very impersonal and even had a tinge of "good riddance" to them. It's like retiring the 747 has sentimental value to the airlines but retiring the A380 doesn't feel the same so far to them. Why?

Probably because the 747 is DEAD, buried and cut to small pieces but the A380 isn't going anywhere. Much easier to celebrate that than the removal of something which you could not get to work unlike others and highlight your own failures.

Actually I think it’s because the 747 is dead you’re right about that. But also because it brought them over 40 years of reliability, range and efficiency (for its time). It changed the world. The 380 unfortunately did not bring much to the table so there’s really so sentiment towards 10 years of overpriced commercial and business failure. You’ll likely see the -8 in cargo form for at least another 20 years are some are still rolling off. If we see a 380 after 2035 that 380 is very lucky.

Look the 380 is a master piece with best in class passenger experience and nothing else....I don’t know the market research Airbus did when they launched that aircraft but it was very very off.

filipinoavgeek wrote:

Does anyone else find it interesting that the 747 retirement announcements were all done with some fanfare and had a sad tone to them, but Air France retiring the A380 and other airlines reducing their fleets seemed less personal? British Airways and QANTAS in their announcements gave this feeling of "it's sad to say goodbye to the 747 and we didn't want to end it this way" and mentioned that the retirements were "difficult" or "heartbreaking" decisions, whereas Air France's announcement seemed very impersonal and even had a tinge of "good riddance" to them. It's like retiring the 747 has sentimental value to the airlines but retiring the A380 doesn't feel the same so far to them. Why?

Did AF have any kind of "event" when they retired the 747 ?

JannEejit wrote:

filipinoavgeek wrote:

Does anyone else find it interesting that the 747 retirement announcements were all done with some fanfare and had a sad tone to them, but Air France retiring the A380 and other airlines reducing their fleets seemed less personal? British Airways and QANTAS in their announcements gave this feeling of "it's sad to say goodbye to the 747 and we didn't want to end it this way" and mentioned that the retirements were "difficult" or "heartbreaking" decisions, whereas Air France's announcement seemed very impersonal and even had a tinge of "good riddance" to them. It's like retiring the 747 has sentimental value to the airlines but retiring the A380 doesn't feel the same so far to them. Why?

Did AF have any kind of "event" when they retired the 747 ?

4 years ago...looks like they had quite a send off. I remember driving near MHV and seeing one (F-GITE) parked up, wished I paid more attention back then and actually got her flying in.

https://onemileatatime.com/air-france-747-retirement/

It is sad when we debate which frame had a better send off. This crisis will be deep, resulting in large widebodies being retired.

Sad to see the Queen of the skies go.

Lightsaber

AF had a party for the last departure from MEX and then did a few sightseeing flights around France with a hangar party at CDG.

The reason behind the lack of fanfare is simple. Management realizes that you can't ask your employees to take pay cuts, unpaid leave, early retirement, etc and then spend money on a party for an airplane that's going to be cut up either way. And there's a difference between retiring a type that you'd already announced was going (like the AF 380s) and an unexpected early retirement (BA 747s)

It's one of the main reasons I avoid these threads. I've worked hundreds, if not thousands of 747s. I know that airplane in and out and I loved them. But I also know hundreds of people who left work one day a few months ago and didn't come back, which it makes it much more difficult to be sad over an airplane. But I get the enthusiast point of view is the plane, and not the people.

JannEejit wrote:

Did AF have any kind of "event" when they retired the 747 ?

Quite:

Air France @airfrance Jan 28, 2016

Upside down selfie with the 747! #selfie #AF747 #AirFrance

Iemand91 wrote:

JannEejit wrote:

Did AF have any kind of "event" when they retired the 747 ?

Quite:

Air France @airfrance Jan 28, 2016

Upside down selfie with the 747! #selfie #AF747 #AirFrance

Wow, quite the picture !

FGITD wrote:

AF had a party for the last departure from MEX and then did a few sightseeing flights around France with a hangar party at CDG.

The reason behind the lack of fanfare is simple. Management realizes that you can't ask your employees to take pay cuts, unpaid leave, early retirement, etc and then spend money on a party for an airplane that's going to be cut up either way. And there's a difference between retiring a type that you'd already announced was going (like the AF 380s) and an unexpected early retirement (BA 747s)

It's one of the main reasons I avoid these threads. I've worked hundreds, if not thousands of 747s. I know that airplane in and out and I loved them. But I also know hundreds of people who left work one day a few months ago and didn't come back, which it makes it much more difficult to be sad over an airplane. But I get the enthusiast point of view is the plane, and not the people.

Well that explains the situation perfectly, thanks. And yes perhaps as "enthusiasts" we do spend too much time mourning the loss of these mechanical objects, versus that of the situation in people terms. I am of course aware of this state of affairs and very much feel for those losing jobs at this time. There are a lot of people in my neighbourhood and around the town where I live who are employed directly at the local airport and associated aerospace businesses, many of whom I know personally.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/f-hsun

Sadly it seems that the stay of execution was only temporary.

Still it got to fly one more time.

Why was F-HSUN moved? It seemed like the engines were being removed when it arrived at Kemble.

Heres the flight activity for CIs 4 744s from flightradar24
B18210- 6/15, 5/15, 4/23, last revenue flight 2/3
B18211 - 7/26, last rev 3/8
B18212 - 7/27, 6/28, 6/27, 6/27, 6/16, 5/31, 5/31,5/2 last rev 2/8
B18215 - 6/24, 5/27, 4/23, 3/19, last rev 3/15

Seems like they are trying to fly them once a month at least recently. Though B18211 was grounded over 4 months and 18212 did some flights of only a minute or two! Maybe thats an error in flightradar.
I understand there is short and long term storage but does the monthly flights recently suggest they may bring them back at some point rather than going to the boneyard soon?

FGITD wrote:

The reason behind the lack of fanfare is simple. Management realizes that you can't ask your employees to take pay cuts, unpaid leave, early retirement, etc and then spend money on a party for an airplane that's going to be cut up either way.

With how things are going I won't be surprised that if the time comes the only airlines that will give the A380s proper send-offs are Emirates, Etihad (assuming they even make it that far) and maybe SQ.

trex8 wrote:

Heres the flight activity for CIs 4 744s from flightradar24
B18210- 6/15, 5/15, 4/23, last revenue flight 2/3
B18211 - 7/26, last rev 3/8
B18212 - 7/27, 6/28, 6/27, 6/27, 6/16, 5/31, 5/31,5/2 last rev 2/8
B18215 - 6/24, 5/27, 4/23, 3/19, last rev 3/15

Seems like they are trying to fly them once a month at least recently. Though B18211 was grounded over 4 months and 18212 did some flights of only a minute or two! Maybe thats an error in flightradar.
I understand there is short and long term storage but does the monthly flights recently suggest they may bring them back at some point rather than going to the boneyard soon?

Yes, this is a good sign. It means that at least they try to keep pilots and aircraft current for the moment. I don't think AI and TG do that.

I think this is the right place for this nice tribute to the 747 in the UK Daily Telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/visual-stor ... oeing-747/

workhorse wrote:

trex8 wrote:

Heres the flight activity for CIs 4 744s from flightradar24
B18210- 6/15, 5/15, 4/23, last revenue flight 2/3
B18211 - 7/26, last rev 3/8
B18212 - 7/27, 6/28, 6/27, 6/27, 6/16, 5/31, 5/31,5/2 last rev 2/8
B18215 - 6/24, 5/27, 4/23, 3/19, last rev 3/15

Seems like they are trying to fly them once a month at least recently. Though B18211 was grounded over 4 months and 18212 did some flights of only a minute or two! Maybe thats an error in flightradar.
I understand there is short and long term storage but does the monthly flights recently suggest they may bring them back at some point rather than going to the boneyard soon?

Yes, this is a good sign. It means that at least they try to keep pilots and aircraft current for the moment. I don't think AI and TG do that.

In Chinese media, CI claimed the 744 pax 'loaned' some parts to the Freighter fleet, they have no need to fly just to keep crew current, they have a massive 747-400F fleet.

Supposedly 3 ex-Virgin Atlantic birds have been purchased by Atlas Air to expand the 747 Pax charter fleet (primarily for AMC lift)... tails are G-VROM, G-VROS, and G-VROY

B-HOP wrote:

In Chinese media, CI claimed the 744 pax 'loaned' some parts to the Freighter fleet, they have no need to fly just to keep crew current, they have a massive 747-400F fleet.

So the same crews fly -Fs and PAX?

workhorse wrote:

B-HOP wrote:

In Chinese media, CI claimed the 744 pax 'loaned' some parts to the Freighter fleet, they have no need to fly just to keep crew current, they have a massive 747-400F fleet.

So the same crews fly -Fs and PAX?

I know CI cargo was never a separate entity from the pax operation (unlike SQ etc) but I couldn't say if they rostered the same people on both freighters and pax, but given they've gone from 17 744s at one time to 4 but still having 18 744Fs, you would think they probably wouldn't keep a separate crew roster, especially after Covid parked the 4 pax ones.

Good news, one of Air India's 744 has "woken up", it flies almost daily between DEL, HYD and BOM:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vt-eso

workhorse wrote:

B-HOP wrote:

In Chinese media, CI claimed the 744 pax 'loaned' some parts to the Freighter fleet, they have no need to fly just to keep crew current, they have a massive 747-400F fleet.

So the same crews fly -Fs and PAX?

I believe is the same group of crew whom operates both types.

I was at SEA on Saturday and happily saw Atlas N464MC (ex JAL) operate an apparent passenger flight from the S-gates terminal to IAH.