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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:10 am

ctrabs0114 wrote:
And PIT has always been an Airbus mx base dating back to US days. Now, PIT is becoming less and less relevant in AA's eyes...


PIT has been a relevant mx base since well before then, and I agree it is less relevant now in AA's eyes. That was my point.
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steeler83
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:17 pm

FlyPIT, my bad for not understanding your point earlier. USPIT10L, thanks for the explanation of the interline agreement vs. code share. If I was the one who initially called it a code share, big oops on my part. Interline agreement, isn't that what's in place with airlines like Southern Air, etc and at least AA at PIT?

And... as BA744PHX posted, this agreement between DE and LH will just expire when that time comes. I guess time will tell what becomes of PIT-FRA service. From what I'm reading, the odds are Condor/LOT will pull FRA-PIT and put it elsewhere. Should that happen, what are the odds Eurowings starts FRA-PIT? Their A330s have about 10-20 more seats than DE's 763s, but they'll have direct access to LH's FRA feed whereas DE will not...

Just speculating here...

EDIT: Chance of Eurowings starting FRA-PIT - probably a hard zero; they don't have a base at FRA... my bad...
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PITfall
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:22 pm

Is the state of the airport address tomorrow? The only information I can find is at the below link.

https://twitter.com/PITairport/status/1 ... 8939728896
 
Gsasala
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:50 am

What about LH? Why can't they operate at PIT they operate daily year round on an A330, A340, & A350 out of CLT a city smaller than PIT with less business that have direct ties to Germany, and a city with much less competition
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:06 am

Gsasala wrote:
What about LH? Why can't they operate at PIT they operate daily year round on an A330, A340, & A350 out of CLT a city smaller than PIT with less business that have direct ties to Germany, and a city with much less competition


The CLT area is a hotbed for German companies, BMW has nearly 10,000 employees an hour away, in South Carolina, plus Bosch, Siemens, and others have thousands of employees in the area.
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JamesRenard
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:40 am

Gsasala wrote:
What about LH? Why can't they operate at PIT they operate daily year round on an A330, A340, & A350 out of CLT a city smaller than PIT with less business that have direct ties to Germany, and a city with much less competition

Charlotte is bigger than Pittsburgh.
As of 2018, the Charlotte metro area (MSA) had a population of 2,569,213, was ranked 23rd in the country, and grew by 15.89% since 2010.
The Pittsburgh MSA, on the other hand, had a 2018 population of 2,324,743, was ranked 27th in the country, and shrank by 1.34% since 2010.

The Austin metro area would be a better comparison. LH does year round flights there and its 2018 metro population (2,168,316, ranked 30th) is still smaller than Pittsburgh's, although it has grown by 26.34% since 2010.
 
ncflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:56 am

Plus a crazy little thing Charlotte has called 700 flights a day bringing in connecting passengers.

Charlotte used to be a small town not anymore. Heck it used to be that Atlanta and Pittsburgh were about the same size but an airport Like those two SE cities have is a powerhouse at drawing business.
 
steeler83
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:29 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Plus a crazy little thing Charlotte has called 700 flights a day bringing in connecting passengers.

Charlotte used to be a small town not anymore. Heck it used to be that Atlanta and Pittsburgh were about the same size but an airport Like those two SE cities have is a powerhouse at drawing business.

Normally that would be a strong case. However, AA and LH are not in the same alliance, and I don't think either one have a code share or interlining agreement with one another.

I think the fact that CLT is a hot bed for German companies indicates that there is healthy enough local demand (CLT-FRA or CLT-Germany as a whole) that would warrant LH service. I'd say the same thing about Austin as well. True, it's smaller than PIT (for now), but its business market is growing, and it likely has stronger business ties with Germany than PIT. While there is strong demand for PIT-Germany, it's not as strong. It seems to be more of a leisure market than business, which is why I have my doubts that LH would show any interest.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
ncflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:30 pm

steeler83 wrote:
ncflyer wrote:

Charlotte used to be a small town not anymore. Heck it used to be that Atlanta and Pittsburgh were about the same size but an airport Like those two SE cities have is a powerhouse at drawing business.

Normally that would be a strong case. However, AA and LH are not in the same alliance, and I don't think either one have a code share or interlining agreement with one another.
.


I feel silly for overlooking that LH is not aligned with AA, so this IS an impressive amount of service for a small city like CLT. Years ago didn’t LH and AA have an alliance? Could be 20 years ago? Maybe that history is what got this flight going and kept it there. Did PIT ever have LH service going back to those days, I can’t remember.
 
USPIT10L
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:01 pm

It was almost 30. They codeshared on ORDDUS in the early 90s, before LH hooked up with UA in 1993.
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:51 am

Modified TMP renderings have been released. Looks like some serious value engineering is underway :/

For example:

Baggage claim before:
Image

After:
Image


Outdoor terrace before:
Image

After:
Image

Arial view before:
Image

After:
Image

Note the reduced landscaping, fewer trees, and greatly increased surface parking.

I noticed several other changes as well.

Also, having a look at the above photo and the one below it looks like they cut the terminal roadway back to 4 lanes but will be triple level:
Image



Overall, I've noticed a trend as the design has eveloved. The new terminal is no longer a seamless addition to the airside. It is not quasi-seamless either. It is now essentially a standalone building connected to the airside with 3 corridors. Here is what I mean:

Original concept:
Image

Original refined architectural layout plan, note the eastern side is still pretty much directly connected to the airside:
Image

Crude but most current rendering, you can see how there are now 3 corridors connecting the two terminals. This is also reflected in the most recent arrial posted above.
Image
Last edited by flyPIT on Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Flaps
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:07 am

I remain thoroughly unimpressed with the entire TMP project.
 
PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:24 pm

I guess all things need to come down to earth, but some of the changes to the TMP don't bother me too much, but what I'd say I'm disappointed is the changes to the ceilings/roof area. Those wooden slats with the original looked so cool, now the ceiling looks two degrees off of a generic drop ceiling. I think it's this intricate definition that makes up for that wow factor. It's a big reason why MAD's T4 is so impressive! I mean, I get it, we're going to complain about their plans to scale back, but we're also going to complain about their cost overruns.
 
steeler83
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:44 pm

Wow... this project has de-evolved. Especially unimpressive is the difference between the before and after rendered images of the baggage claim. So, we wait almost 30 years to upgrade a design from 1987 to 1997... It looks like the finished Century III renovation from around that same time (1997) - and even then it was very underwhelming...

If this is their idea of modernizing this airport, and staying within budget, then what is the point...? This just looks very unimpressive to no end; not much of an upgrade...

Not really surprised...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:08 pm

I actually think this one is the biggest downgrade..... that floating glass is gone now and replaced with big chunky boxes

Image
 
NiMar
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:47 pm

The outdoor area in the new picture looks better though. Half the pictures look better/neutral, half worse. It will still be better than what is there now.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:20 pm

One more thing about the TMP... a couple months ago there was uncertainty about the terminal's glass wall sides and if it was replaced by some sort of gray cladding. The rendering was not very clear ("could it be the roof's shadow?"). But it is very clear in the updated rendering, and very ugly:
Image

Not a fan of the triple deck roadway either as it takes away from the architectural appeal of the front of the building. What a change from the initial plan of a wide single level roadway common at large European roadways.



ncflyer wrote:
Did PIT ever have LH service going back to those days, I can’t remember.

The closest Pittsburgh ever was to landing LH service was in the late '90s or early '00s for a flight to MUC. US was in *A with LH and already served PIT-FRA. There were 3 finalists for a new LH route to MUC, the other two being MCO and CLT. PIT lost out and the other two eventually received LH service.

There's an archived article on this, I'll try to find it later, but IIRC LH believed there was not enough business demand from PIT. The fact they stated this about a hub to bub route is telling.

I think perhaps too much is being made about the loss of LH connections for DE. I'd like to know how many people actually took advantage of the LH interline. Most of Pittsburgh's German business connections are in Cologne, which is a train ride from FRA.



In other news, has anyone heard anything interesting from this "State of the Airport" meeting? I did find this quote rather ironic, from the BlueSky site:
"If you had said five years ago, ‘You’re going to be building a new terminal, breaking ground on a world-leading additive manufacturing campus, and building a microgrid,’ I would have said, ‘Are you kidding? We’re just trying to bring in more airline service,’” she said"

Considering what a horrible year 2019 was for new air service announcements ... only one new destination was announced amid some high profile losses... perhaps "trying to bring in more airline service" is exactly what Ms. Cassotis should be getting back to instead of worrying about micro grids, Nellie Bly statues, or the third incarnation of an industrial park which has yet to see anything built! Air service development was why she was brought in. Perhaps it's time to get back to basics.


Pittsburgh will be hosting a pre-G7 summit later this month. Perhaps we will see some interesting VIP movements.
https://triblive.com/local/pittsburgh-allegheny/g-7-foreign-ministers-meeting-in-pittsburgh-later-this-month/
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Gsasala
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:26 am

Not a fan of the triple deck roadway either as it takes away from the architectural appeal of the front of the building. What a change from the initial plan of a wide single level roadway common at large European roadways.

I'm a fan of the multi level roadway, it helps cut down on traffic plus if have to pick someone up at night I usually go to departures where no one is
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:40 am

I meant to say "What a change from the initial plan of a wide single level roadway common at large European regional airports".

I think the industry standard upper and lower level roadways is the way to go. 3 levels seems like overkill and not aesthetically attractive at all.
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Gsasala
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:44 am

flyPIT wrote:
I meant to say "What a change from the initial plan of a wide single level roadway common at large European regional airports".

I think the industry standard upper and lower level roadways is the way to go. 3 levels seems like overkill and not aesthetically attractive at all.

I think the third level is supposed to separate the commercial traffic from the other traffic, like what they do at MCO
 
PITexpress
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:55 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
I actually think this one is the biggest downgrade..... that floating glass is gone now and replaced with big chunky boxes

Image


Agreed, and the roof sections sort of remind me of those monolithic qualities that some of our suburban malls had from the 70's. Look up high and you will see this giant ugly roof thing protruding out. No thanks.
 
ncflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:06 pm

Wonder if PIT would be in a better spot if they didn't start with a world class designer (i.e. one that probably charges top dollar) that is usually dealing with Singapore or Barcelona types of budgets. . . I had a feeling it was a little ambitious for a $1B budget to incorporate features we usually only see overseas.
 
atlflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:38 pm

I think we are lucky that they are keeping any of the natural wood ceilings for only a $1 billion budget. Still will be a nice new terminal with descent architectural features.
 
Gsasala
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:15 am

So I have a curious question why is it that it costs a billion dollars to build the new terminal, now to be clear I have no issues with the price or the fact that they building a new one, when it costs $400 million to build tower at PNC plaza which is a skyscraper. I'm assuming that it's because it has to do with aviation and everything that has to do with aviation automatically costs way more
 
flightsimer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:38 pm

Gsasala wrote:
So I have a curious question why is it that it costs a billion dollars to build the new terminal, now to be clear I have no issues with the price or the fact that they building a new one, when it costs $400 million to build tower at PNC plaza which is a skyscraper. I'm assuming that it's because it has to do with aviation and everything that has to do with aviation automatically costs way more

It’s not a billion dollar terminal like everyone in here continually states incorrectly. It’s a 600-700 million dollar terminal building. The entire project including all the new utilities, roadways, parking lots and the parking garage and demo of old structures is priced at one billion.
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crjflyboy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:55 pm

This entire new terminal fiasco at PIT should be scrapped ... the plans change every two months .. new drawings .. new renderings ... spend 2 billion dollars to save the cost of escalator and tram maintenance ?

Is there anyone in the county willing to step up and stop this madness ?
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:11 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
This entire new terminal fiasco at PIT should be scrapped ... the plans change every two months .. new drawings .. new renderings ... spend 2 billion dollars to save the cost of escalator and tram maintenance ?

Is there anyone in the county willing to step up and stop this madness ?


Is this a parody account? New renderings happen multiple times throughout the process of every construction project as it becomes more fleshed out. First round is hopes and dreams, later rounds are what's actually possible.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:26 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
This entire new terminal fiasco at PIT should be scrapped ... the plans change every two months .. new drawings .. new renderings ... spend 2 billion dollars to save the cost of escalator and tram maintenance ?

Is there anyone in the county willing to step up and stop this madness ?


Is this a parody account? New renderings happen multiple times throughout the process of every construction project as it becomes more fleshed out. First round is hopes and dreams, later rounds are what's actually possible.


It should be put up to the voters of the county ... is this needed .. is this wanted ... what are county officials afraid of ?
 
ncflyer
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:45 pm

CRJ raises a point very worthy of debate, but in defense of NOT bringing it to the voters, the airport is a stand-alone entity and renovations are paid for by airport fees and profits, no impact to taxpayers (unless they use the airport). Why I as a Clevelander am following this PIT airport project with a lot of interest-- PIT airport is 10x nicer than CLE's as it is, and not all that old, yet it's somehow getting a major renovation already. I applaud PIT for not waiting until it's too late and too expensive (which is my hunch for what has happened in CLE, it's going to be so damn pricey to modernize CLE given it's current condition), but it does seem like a long and expensive walk for the short drink of replacing a terrible train system in PIT.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:01 pm

Why would the airport put it up to a vote when it's being financed itself, not via taxpayers?

Also, there seems to be a DL 752 parked at the end of A concourse right now.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:44 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
Why would the airport put it up to a vote when it's being financed itself, not via taxpayers?

Also, there seems to be a DL 752 parked at the end of A concourse right now.


Not entirely true ... Allegheny county will borrow the billion plus needed to finance this boondoggle project ... then hope that the fees over decades will be able to cover those bond payments and interest. If the airport fees can't ... the taxpayers of the county have to pay it.
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:10 pm

ncflyer wrote:
in defense of NOT bringing it to the voters, the airport is a stand-alone entity and renovations are paid for by airport fees and profits, no impact to taxpayers (unless they use the airport).

No impact to taxpayers who use the airport either, other than a 50 cent increase in parking taxes.

The only worthy counterpoint is an increase in CPE (Cost Per Enplanement...which is paid by the airlines, not taxpaying citizens) might cause an airline to not expand here. If our CPE was still disproportionately higher than our peer cities then it is a very valid concern such as back when ours was approx $20 and airlines like WN and FL publicly complained about it. Now that it is much lower and inline and will stay in line with our peers it is not an issue like it was. The Pittsburgh region is stagnant population wise but our airport's growth percentage is on par with rapidly growing metros such as IND and CMH. That tells me airport fees are no longer an issue and growth will be driven by our market and its rapidly changing demographics within that overall stagnant population, such as higher wages and new industries replacing old. Earlier this week Google stated Pittsburgh would be one of 11 locations to benefit from a $10 billion expansion:
https://datacenternews.us/story/google-cloud-to-invest-10b-in-us-presence-in-2020
It is news like this that will impress network planners much more than a slight increase in CPE from here on out.


Personally I am very much in favor of this project. My main gripe is some of the aesthetic changes that have been noted. But also noted is that these renderings change as time goes on so perhaps some of the changes can be undone such as the siding before it's too late. I have never liked the 1992 terminal from an aesthetic perspective. The landside terminal is butt ugly and if we hired a world class architect from the outset then perhaps I would feel different the need for this.


crjflyboy wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Why would the airport put it up to a vote when it's being financed itself, not via taxpayers?

Also, there seems to be a DL 752 parked at the end of A concourse right now.


Not entirely true ... Allegheny county will borrow the billion plus needed to finance this boondoggle project ... then hope that the fees over decades will be able to cover those bond payments and interest. If the airport fees can't ... the taxpayers of the county have to pay it.

In other words, you are agreeing county taxpayers will not be paying for this. When in the history of major airports have these fees not been able to cover the related capital improvements, resulting in the taxpayers assuming the liability? For this to happen the ACAA would need to declare bankruptcy and that is not going to happen. It did not even come close to happening when US Airways walked away from their 50 gate lease 15 years ago.
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crjflyboy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:30 pm

flyPIT wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
in defense of NOT bringing it to the voters, the airport is a stand-alone entity and renovations are paid for by airport fees and profits, no impact to taxpayers (unless they use the airport).

No impact to taxpayers who use the airport either, other than a 50 cent increase in parking taxes.

The only worthy counterpoint is an increase in CPE (Cost Per Enplanement...which is paid by the airlines, not taxpaying citizens) might cause an airline to not expand here. If our CPE was still disproportionately higher than our peer cities then it is a very valid concern such as back when ours was approx $20 and airlines like WN and FL publicly complained about it. Now that it is much lower and inline and will stay in line with our peers it is not an issue like it was. The Pittsburgh region is stagnant population wise but our airport's growth percentage is on par with rapidly growing metros such as IND and CMH. That tells me airport fees are no longer an issue and growth will be driven by our market and its rapidly changing demographics within that overall stagnant population, such as higher wages and new industries replacing old. Earlier this week Google stated Pittsburgh would be one of 11 locations to benefit from a $10 billion expansion:
https://datacenternews.us/story/google-cloud-to-invest-10b-in-us-presence-in-2020
It is news like this that will impress network planners much more than a slight increase in CPE from here on out.


Personally I am very much in favor of this project. My main gripe is some of the aesthetic changes that have been noted. But also noted is that these renderings change as time goes on so perhaps some of the changes can be undone such as the siding before it's too late. I have never liked the 1992 terminal from an aesthetic perspective. The landside terminal is butt ugly and if we hired a world class architect from the outset then perhaps I would feel different the need for this.



Not entirely true ... Allegheny county will borrow the billion plus needed to finance this boondoggle project ... then hope that the fees over decades will be able to cover those bond payments and interest. If the airport fees can't ... the taxpayers of the county have to pay it.

In other words, you are agreeing county taxpayers will not be paying for this. When in the history of major airports have these fees not been able to cover the related capital improvements, resulting in the taxpayers assuming the liability? For this to happen the ACAA would need to declare bankruptcy and that is not going to happen. It did not even come close to happening when US Airways walked away from their 50 gate lease 15 years ago.[/quote]

Atlanta airport is ugly, but it is extremely efficient. I could careless how an airport looks from the inside ... are bathrooms clean, luggage arrive on time, enough places to grab a bite to eat or drink ... that is what is most important ...

ACAA would not have to declare bankruptcy, just default on the payments if fees are not collected ... ONEJET never paid theirs ... remember ... Christina never said a word until the media latched on to that boondoggle she followed to the bitter end.

Their is no justifiable reason for PIT to do this ... none
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:26 am

crjflyboy wrote:
ACAA would not have to declare bankruptcy, just default on the payments if fees are not collected ... ONEJET never paid theirs ... remember ... Christina never said a word until the media latched on to that boondoggle she followed to the bitter end.

"Just default on the payments"... and tank their credit rating. I'm not sure the end result is much more desirable than Ch.11. You are correct about OneJet - they never paid theirs.... and ended up in bankruptcy. My original point stands... when did a major airport enter bk, or default on their loans if you prefer... resulting in local taxpayers being held responsible? The even greater point is also still valid - taxpayers will not be paying for this.


crjflyboy wrote:
Atlanta airport is ugly, but it is extremely efficient. I could careless how an airport looks from the inside ... are bathrooms clean, luggage arrive on time, enough places to grab a bite to eat or drink ... that is what is most important ...

Is it efficient? It was when it had 40 million passengers/yr. Now with 110 million you can't go through there without tripping over people. It's bathrooms are too small and there certainly are not enough places to eat. Those are items you listed as important. Then we can discuss the efficiency of the 40 year old concourses from a utilities perspective. Sometimes it's more cost effective to build new instead of continuously updating. At PIT, checked luggage takes much longer than it should.

The concept of ATL's layout is efficient with the runways and linear concourses between them. But it's woefully out of scale these days. The concourse could use another level to handle restaurants/food/bars, airline lounges, and moving walkways.
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crjflyboy
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:40 am

flyPIT wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
ACAA would not have to declare bankruptcy, just default on the payments if fees are not collected ... ONEJET never paid theirs ... remember ... Christina never said a word until the media latched on to that boondoggle she followed to the bitter end.

"Just default on the payments"... and tank their credit rating. I'm not sure the end result is much more desirable than Ch.11. You are correct about OneJet - they never paid theirs.... and ended up in bankruptcy. My original point stands... when did a major airport enter bk, or default on their loans if you prefer... resulting in local taxpayers being held responsible? The even greater point is also still valid - taxpayers will not be paying for this.


crjflyboy wrote:
Atlanta airport is ugly, but it is extremely efficient. I could careless how an airport looks from the inside ... are bathrooms clean, luggage arrive on time, enough places to grab a bite to eat or drink ... that is what is most important ...

Is it efficient? It was when it had 40 million passengers/yr. Now with 110 million you can't go through there without tripping over people. It's bathrooms are too small and there certainly are not enough places to eat. Those are items you listed as important. Then we can discuss the efficiency of the 40 year old concourses from a utilities perspective. Sometimes it's more cost effective to build new instead of continuously updating. At PIT, checked luggage takes much longer than it should.

The concept of ATL's layout is efficient with the runways and linear concourses between them. But it's woefully out of scale these days. The concourse could use another level to handle restaurants/food/bars, airline lounges, and moving walkways.


For all your bad mouthing ATL ... they have zero plans to build new ... it's paid off and enjoys one of the lowest CPE 'S on the planet ... it works perfect and the citizens of ATL are happy with it even though it's much older than PIT
 
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flyPIT
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:53 am

crjflyboy wrote:
[For all your bad mouthing ATL ... they have zero plans to build new ... it's paid off and enjoys one of the lowest CPE 'S on the planet ... it works perfect and the citizens of ATL are happy with it even though it's much older than PIT

- Not bad mouthing just pointing out the obvious that they are putting 10 pounds of s&%! in a 5 pound bag. It hardly "works perfect", especially when there is a CB within 100 miles.

- It enjoys some of the lowest CPE's because those costs are spread across 110 million people.

- There certainly are plans to build new.
https://www.atl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/ATL_ExecSumm_2015_101415_Spreads.pdf
FLYi
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:34 am

flyPIT wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
[For all your bad mouthing ATL ... they have zero plans to build new ... it's paid off and enjoys one of the lowest CPE 'S on the planet ... it works perfect and the citizens of ATL are happy with it even though it's much older than PIT

- Not bad mouthing just pointing out the obvious that they are putting 10 pounds of s&%! in a 5 pound bag. It hardly "works perfect", especially when there is a CB within 100 miles.

- It enjoys some of the lowest CPE's because those costs are spread across 110 million people.

- There certainly are plans to build new.
https://www.atl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/ATL_ExecSumm_2015_101415_Spreads.pdf


ZERO PLANS to builds to a new terminal in your 5 year old forecast ... just expansion of existing facilities

Kansas City is choking on their new facility and airlines are now talking of walking away ...

https://showmeinstitute.org/blog/local- ... ts-service

Doubled in cost ...
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 1925
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:07 am

crjflyboy wrote:
ZERO PLANS to builds to a new terminal in your 5 year old forecast ... just expansion of existing facilities

It's the current master plan, they just completed a new terminal prior to that, and yes, expansion of existing facilities. $6 billion worth of projects over 20 years. If they had the space PIT does they'd love to add more concourses. Hardly what you called "zero plans to build new"


crjflyboy wrote:
Kansas City is choking on their new facility and airlines are now talking of walking away ...

https://showmeinstitute.org/blog/local- ... ts-service

Doubled in cost ...

"The Show Me Institute - Were Liberty Comes First"??? Ah this must be Kansas City's version of the Allegheny Institute, who's op-eds on PIT related topics are the stuff of comedic legend.

I'd rather take the words of Southwest Airlines:

"Southwest Airlines official Steve Sisneros had a pretty blunt assessment of the current state of Kansas City International Airport, but possible good news for the future. Sisneros, managing director of airport affairs for the airline, said Southwest wants to make Kansas City more of a midcontinent connecting hub."
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2018/11/19/new-kci-could-be-midcontinent-hub-for-southwest.html

SMF was also "choking" on their new $1 billion terminal... so much so that they choked themselves to record growth.
FLYi
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:25 am

flyPIT wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
ZERO PLANS to builds to a new terminal in your 5 year old forecast ... just expansion of existing facilities

It's the current master plan, they just completed a new terminal prior to that, and yes, expansion of existing facilities. $6 billion worth of projects over 20 years. If they had the space PIT does they'd love to add more concourses. Hardly what you called "zero plans to build new"


crjflyboy wrote:
Kansas City is choking on their new facility and airlines are now talking of walking away ...

https://showmeinstitute.org/blog/local- ... ts-service

Doubled in cost ...

"The Show Me Institute - Were Liberty Comes First"??? Ah this must be Kansas City's version of the Allegheny Institute, who's op-eds on PIT related topics are the stuff of comedic legend.

I'd rather take the words of Southwest Airlines:

"Southwest Airlines official Steve Sisneros had a pretty blunt assessment of the current state of Kansas City International Airport, but possible good news for the future. Sisneros, managing director of airport affairs for the airline, said Southwest wants to make Kansas City more of a midcontinent connecting hub."
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2018/11/19/new-kci-could-be-midcontinent-hub-for-southwest.html

SMF was also "choking" on their new $1 billion terminal... so much so that they choked themselves to record growth.


Allegiant and Spirit willing to walk away now

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... 04615.html

SMF has 31 gates and has very few RJ type aircraft that use it
 
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flyPIT
Posts: 1925
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:21 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:21 am

crjflyboy wrote:
Allegiant and Spirit willing to walk away now

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... 04615.html

SMF has 31 gates and has very few RJ type aircraft that use it


Nowhere did it say G4 and NK were willing to leave MCI. Seemed their issue was over a $20 million baggage system, and how costs are to be shared among the airlines. Proper cost sharing is a legitimate issue for the smaller airlines and one which will be resolved as it has countless other times if it hasn't already. MCI subsequently signed an airlines agreement for their project a year ago and G4 and NK are still there.
FLYi
 
AaronPGH
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:13 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:43 pm

Just noticed a change in my PIT-SFO-TPE schedule in April. Looks like on some days, both daily PIT-SFO flights have been scrapped (April 14). Most days are back down to just 1 daily. This coronavirus thing must really be wreaking havoc.
 
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Lemieux
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:54 pm

According to the weekly OAG thread, AA drops PIT-PHX in July. Insanity.
Full time internet idiot. A319/20/20NEO/21/332/333, Boeing 733/734/737/738/752/753/762/763/772/773/788/789, CR2/7/9, de Havilland DHC-8, Embraer 140/145/175/190, MD82/88.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1375
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:32 pm

Especially insane because I don’t think it’s a corona related cut. But all these Successful recent adds through the years to Denver, SLC, heck even SEA, they chip away from somewhere.
 
JamesRenard
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:16 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:37 pm

I just don't understand it. There are three flights (2x AA, 1x WN) between PIT and PHX throughout March and April. One AA flight gets dropped in early May, then both remaining flights are gone in June. No non-stop service for all of July and August.
 
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ConcourseZ
Posts: 442
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Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:21 pm

Speaking of DL, this from ch-aviation.com. This could mean we will see the A220 at PIT sooner.

"Delta Air Lines (DL, Atlanta Hartsfield Jackson) is prepared to accelerate the retirement of some MD-88s, MD-90s, as well as B757s and B767s to mitigate the downturn caused by the COVID-19 epidemic, Chief Financial Officer Paul Jacobson said during the Raymond James Institutional Investors Conference.

The carrier still operates forty-eight MD-88s, which are 28.7 years old on average. It plans to retire all of them this year. The MD-90s, of which Delta operates 26, are due to stay in its fleet until 2022. The latter subfleet is younger, averaging 22.6 years.

The McDonnell Douglas twinjets are mainly being replaced by A220s of which Delta already operates thirty A220-100s. It has a further fifteen A220-100s and fifty A220-300s on order from Airbus Canada (Montréal Mirabel).

The carrier's fleet of B757s includes 111 B757-200s and sixteen B757-300s. It also operates fifty-six B767-300(ER)s and twenty-one B767-400s."
 
AaronPGH
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:13 pm

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:11 pm

Almost all of these cuts are Corona related, even if indirectly. Every company has basically instituted a travel ban. Business travel is not going to be a thing for a while. I'd imagine lesser hubs like PHX are probably going to be the most hurt in this.
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:39 pm

AaronPGH wrote:
Almost all of these cuts are Corona related, even if indirectly. Every company has basically instituted a travel ban. Business travel is not going to be a thing for a while. I'd imagine lesser hubs like PHX are probably going to be the most hurt in this.


I get the distinct impression that WN dropping PIT-PHX was almost purely due to MAX issues; AA dropping PIT-PHX is probably a combination of COVID, MAX shortages, and not having any pressure to fly it because WN's gone and they can flow all the traffic over ORD, CLT, and DFW. Still kind of amazing that PIT now has no PHX and no network carrier service to LAX, both of which should be easy gimmes. Cassiotis has been great for PIT-Europe but decidedly mixed for PIT-West Coast (the PIT-SEA and PIT-SFO double daily are good, PHX and LAX not so much).
 
USPIT10L
Posts: 2061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:24 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:47 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Almost all of these cuts are Corona related, even if indirectly. Every company has basically instituted a travel ban. Business travel is not going to be a thing for a while. I'd imagine lesser hubs like PHX are probably going to be the most hurt in this.


I get the distinct impression that WN dropping PIT-PHX was almost purely due to MAX issues; AA dropping PIT-PHX is probably a combination of COVID, MAX shortages, and not having any pressure to fly it because WN's gone and they can flow all the traffic over ORD, CLT, and DFW. Still kind of amazing that PIT now has no PHX and no network carrier service to LAX, both of which should be easy gimmes. Cassiotis has been great for PIT-Europe but decidedly mixed for PIT-West Coast (the PIT-SEA and PIT-SFO double daily are good, PHX and LAX not so much).


As I've said multiple times, PITLAX is extremely low-yielding. I worked that flight at the UA counter for two years. It had limited connection possibilities and was an easy upgrade for elites. Put simply, people were not willing to pay a premium to fly nonstop with all the connections available. I'm pretty AA had similar problems during their run. Not sure how US did once the route switched to mornings, but it says a lot when NK is the only option left. I'm sure PHX is even lower-yielding than LAX was, especially with AA flying once daily during the summer and double-daily in winter.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:17 pm

GSP psgr wrote:
AaronPGH wrote:
Almost all of these cuts are Corona related, even if indirectly. Every company has basically instituted a travel ban. Business travel is not going to be a thing for a while. I'd imagine lesser hubs like PHX are probably going to be the most hurt in this.


I get the distinct impression that WN dropping PIT-PHX was almost purely due to MAX issues; AA dropping PIT-PHX is probably a combination of COVID, MAX shortages, and not having any pressure to fly it because WN's gone and they can flow all the traffic over ORD, CLT, and DFW. Still kind of amazing that PIT now has no PHX and no network carrier service to LAX, both of which should be easy gimmes. Cassiotis has been great for PIT-Europe but decidedly mixed for PIT-West Coast (the PIT-SEA and PIT-SFO double daily are good, PHX and LAX not so much).



PIT-LAX seems to only work for the presence of an LCC, and only one at that (NK kicking WN out of that route). Any of the legacies would have trouble taking on NK who have cemented their position with double daily A319s that are relatively full. Likely even with an A220.
 
flightsimer
Posts: 1068
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:34 am

Re: PIT Update Discussion Thread - 2020

Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:41 am

crjflyboy wrote:
flyPIT wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
ZERO PLANS to builds to a new terminal in your 5 year old forecast ... just expansion of existing facilities

It's the current master plan, they just completed a new terminal prior to that, and yes, expansion of existing facilities. $6 billion worth of projects over 20 years. If they had the space PIT does they'd love to add more concourses. Hardly what you called "zero plans to build new"


crjflyboy wrote:
Kansas City is choking on their new facility and airlines are now talking of walking away ...

https://showmeinstitute.org/blog/local- ... ts-service

Doubled in cost ...

"The Show Me Institute - Were Liberty Comes First"??? Ah this must be Kansas City's version of the Allegheny Institute, who's op-eds on PIT related topics are the stuff of comedic legend.

I'd rather take the words of Southwest Airlines:

"Southwest Airlines official Steve Sisneros had a pretty blunt assessment of the current state of Kansas City International Airport, but possible good news for the future. Sisneros, managing director of airport affairs for the airline, said Southwest wants to make Kansas City more of a midcontinent connecting hub."
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2018/11/19/new-kci-could-be-midcontinent-hub-for-southwest.html

SMF was also "choking" on their new $1 billion terminal... so much so that they choked themselves to record growth.


Allegiant and Spirit willing to walk away now

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politic ... 04615.html

SMF has 31 gates and has very few RJ type aircraft that use it


Lmao, are you for real? How about finding an article newer than 18 months, as both of your articles you have posted about MCI were from Nov 2018...
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